Beware of Acronis "Leftovers" Issues

Hey Arvy, good to see you over here helping others out as you have in the Acronis forums! Am I to assume, based on the fact you've posted here, that you have made a decision as to your imaging program of choice? Or, like me, are you still reviewing options?

 

I've switched over to Pargon's Hard Disk Manager 11 Suite, for now at least. It's not perfect either (a bit slow and the user interface needs improvement) but at least it doesn't bypass the OS HAL with its own device class filter services and drivers. So you don't end up with a diminished range of support for storage devices that is almost impossible to reverse like the Acronis installation.

I'm hoping to see some improvements in the Paragon HDM 12 Suite which is currently at the beta stage. We'll see. If not, StorageCraft's ShadowProtect also looks like another possible good alternative.

 

StorageCraft has great tools, albeit expensive...and not overly keen on the activation aspect.

 

Activation is a big negative for me too, although not having purchased a paid verion of ShadowProtect, I can't actually comment on the StorageCraft implementation. The implementation that was introduced by Acronis in their TrueImage 2012 version has some terribly intrusive "phone home" actions. Initially it was opening file handles and not closing them which, of course, plays havoc with system resources. I think they've improved that problem somewhat in a subsequent update, but the whole concept is a big PITA just the same.

 

That's what I like about the TerabyteUnlimited line of products...one license can be used on up to three machines and no online or offline activation is required...that and it's rock solid.

 

@Arvy
Thanks for your insights. Paragon is one of those on my list, as is Shadow Protect - as we've talked about in the past. In case you hadn't noticed, Acronis has started locking down threads. Sadly I've seen a few (or at least one) locked down which had frank discussion between learned customers and Acronis higher-ups. One thread in particular gave me a little hope because of very informative and helpful open communication, but that thread is one which was locked. (This is the one Ed Banack and Alain, VP R&D posted in.)

I don't have much hope for Acronis, but at least we know for sure the uppity ups have gotten the message. (Even if they do seem to be skirting the issues a bit.) It'll be interesting to see if they go anywhere with the information provided to them, but locking down constructive threads with the reason of "as we would like to keep our dialogs constructive, we're locking this thread" doesn't give me a lot of hope.

@napoleon1815
Never heard of Terabyte Unlimited - thanks fro giving me something else to look into.

 

Gorkster,

You can do very interesting things with TeraByte Unlimited products.

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/howto/index.htm

 

@Gorkster: I think your assessment of the Acronis situation is probably correct. They realise now that they've shot themselves in the foot (or higher in the anatomy) but have been unable fully to overcome the results in any practical sense and so are resorting to some quite desparate "bandaids" in the PR department. Unfortunately for them, the word has already spread far beyond their own forums and continues to do so.

As I said in my "farewell note" there, mine was a reluctantant departure, but like you, I see no great hope for a brillant future for them in the prevaling circumstances. And given the worsening trend of their management's own contributions to the fiasco, any further small efforts on my part (among others) to influence their rapidly deteriorating corporate outlook in a more positive direction just seemed like a waste of time.

 

agree with brian i own almost every image program out there and i always end up back with image for windows after testing everything else

 

No problem. You will find lots of discussion about their products on here...enjoy!

 

I am another former Acronis customer, for years...

I succeeded to regain a clean Win7 computer, thanks to Arvy. At the moment I am running Paragon B&R 2012 Free, I like it, but I want to examine other products. I am a simple home user, ShadowProtect is too expensive? I think it has to be either Paragon Hard Disk Manager 11 Suite or TeraByte Boot It Bare Metal.

Does TeraByte support USB 3.0 HDs > 2TB? (I was not able to find the answer at their web site.)

My main question:
Is it safe to install and test several imaging systems simultaneously? (Of course, no manual/scheduled double tasks at the same time.)

 

Good question. Mostly I would say no, especially if they each install their own disk filter driver on your system (Acronis, Paragon, TB, etc. all do this...most live imaging tools will). I ADMIT I have had luck running many at once, but I can't say it's recommened and can't say you won't have any issues.

 

I hate filter drivers and Acronis is not the only software that uses them. I use Acronis for the fact that the incremental/differential backups are fast. I prefer O&O DiskImage but the differential backup takes longer than a new full one.

Overall Acronis 2012 has not been bad for me since the fixed the handle leak.

 

boy, after reading this, you guys are going to make me have to do a lot of work,
I used to use Acronis all the time but had switch over to Clonezilla a good while back but the image I have been using would have the leftovers from Acronis

I guess it is time for a reformat and install

 

DEFINITELY not advisable for any backup app that installs device class filters like Acronis does. You might get away with it with some others, but generally speaking, it's not a good idea.

That fix did help somewhat with system resources issues. The problem of their device class drivers' limited support for some types of storage devices and controllers, however, remains unresolved as does much other quirky behavior, especially with some of their auto-start gimmicks like sync, non-stop backup, etc.

That would be a last resort option. But if you've reached that point of deperation, there would be no harm in trying a manual registry cleanup first. It's a bit tricky, but not impossible, and it sounds like you've nothing to lose by trying.

 

Thanks to napoleon1815 and Arvy. It is my understanding that “they all” (including Paragon and TB) install “their own disk filter driver on your system”. May be it was unfair to Acronis that I installed both EaseUS and Paragon; the problems accelerated!

It is not easy to a “John Doe” to know in advance whether the backup app installs device class filters. If Arvy is a clever teacher, and I am an attentive student, TB Free's drivers are found in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{19837C5C-96F5-45E0-9A2D-C6BB26E1B12B}. I do not find any UpperFilters, only the value “Universal Image Mounter”.

 

Bypassing the HAL is not a reliable thing to do. Any OS change could cause the software bypassing the HAL to break the OS, this is exactly what happened in Diskeeper in NT3.5 before there was a block level API - Microsoft released an update the caused Diskeeper to corrupt the filesystem.

Also, by bypassing the HAL it is possible to install another piece of software that manipulates the disc (by HAL or bypassed) and potential for corruption is far greater than using HAL directly.

Cheers, Nick

 

I guess I'm not a very good teacher, John. No, that is not where you need to look in the registry for the device class filter entries that are the issue here. They will be found (or not) as UpperFilters and/or LowerFilters for the DiskDrive and Volume device classes. For the current Acronis TIH 2012 release, they would be as I stated in the OP for this thread:

List of device class UpperFilters and LowerFilters entries added by ATIH:
(NOTE: + indicates value inserted into REG_MULTI_SZ registry entries.)

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{4D36E967-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}
Class = DiskDrive
UpperFilters + fltsrv
LowerFilters + vidsflt61 (NOTE: Last 2 digits of filter service name may vary.)

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{71A27CDD-812A-11D0-BEC7-08002BE2092F}
Class = Volume
UpperFilters + timounter + fltsrv
LowerFilters

In the past, before Microsoft integrated its VSS shadow copying capabilities into its Windows operating system, imaging software products ALL DID install their own filter drivers for that purpose. For example, there was the snapman.sys filter for Acronis, the hotcore3.sys filter for Paragon, etc. Acronis and some other imaging software product still do install their own filter drivers under all Windows OS versions. Current product releases from Paragon and some others, however, install their own device class filters drivers NOW ONLY WHEN NECESSARY in older Windows OS versions. In newer Windows versions (WinXP and later) they do not bypass the OS HAL but use the operating system's VSS shadow copying capabilities instead. In fact, I suspect some companies will probably abandon support for older Windows OS versions alltogether in the not too distant future.

You'll get no argument from me, Nick. I'm convinced. Now, if you could just persuade Acronis, you'd be doing all of us a big favor, including Acronis themselves.

As with most such decisions, it seems largely to be a matter of dollars and cents. There are some licensing costs attached to using Microsoft's VSS drivers in a rescue and recovery package. But, with Acronis, there also seems to be some "corporate culture" issues involved in abandoning their old habits. Maybe the results of their current fiasco will have some positive impact, but only time will tell. Personally, I'm not optimistic in their case.

 

@Arvy: I realize that the problem is the inattentive student! I had no problems with your instructions regarding Acronis, THANKS! And now I have verified that the device class filter entries only has Microsoft sys-files for both the DiskDrive and Volume classes (I am running Paragon B&R 2012 Free at the moment).

I am very pleased to read “In newer Windows versions (WinXP and later) they do not bypass the OS HAL but use the operating system's VSS shadow copying capabilities instead.” You gave me the lesson I wanted and needed. I now know another issue to look for when I shall evaluate possible imaging app candidates. I do not want to experience the ATIH story once more.

 

The thread "HDM 12 Suite" has become really hot, https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=2017141&postcount=1

We are discussing VSS hot processing versus Paragon's own Hotcore3.sys. With VSS we lose our Windows Update history, with Paragon Hot Processing the history is backed up. After the Acronis adventure, I am scared of "UpperFilters" and "LowerFilters". I found the entry "UpperFilters"= hotcore3 in the key HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Class\{71A27CDD-812A-11D0-BEC7-08002BE2092F}], "Class"="Volume".

The service hotcore3 has "Start"=dword:00000000 = "required for boot".

I hope you read this, Arvy. Do we have a potential "Acronis problem"? Is everything OK if an uninstallation removes the Registry entries I have mentioned?

 

I was under the impression that, under anything newer than Windows 2000, the Paragon installer package no longer included the "hotcore" driver, but used VSS instead. But yes, if it does, then the situation could be quite similar.

If that "hotcore" device class filter is actually installed, normal uninstallation of the Paragon application may not remove it, although it should. Neither Paragon nor Acronis have ever provided a satisfactory explanation of why not -- not to me anyhow. It's almost as if they're deliberately trying to screw things up for installing any other similar product.

 

@John Doe Genius
Was that entry still in your registry after uninstalling the product? Or have you actually not tried uninstalling the product and checking yet...

 

@Arvy: Thanks, yes, the default hot processing option is VSS, by default (with B&R11 and HDM12) the PHP is not installed, you have to select the option during setup if you want to use PHP. I had both options available in HDM12 because I also had Paragon Drive Copy 11 installed. In this app, Hotcore3.sys is installed by default.

I have now uninstalled Drive Copy 11 (through Revo Uninstaller Pro, advanced mode). The result of the Paragon Uninstaller:
* The UpperFilters entry is removed (as it should be).
* The file Windows\system32\DRIVERS\hotcore3.sys is correctly deleted.
* Remaining Registry entries in HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Installer\Folders are a InstallShield/MSIEXEC issue
* As usual (?) with Paragon uninstallers, the folder structure in Program Files (x86) is retained, all files created by the user are still on the disk (script files, logs etc)

I rebooted, no problem at all (this is also an answer to Gorkster):

@all: We do not need to fear 'Acronis problems' with Paragon.

 

I believe this corresponds to what @Arvy posted he was advised by Paragon after enquiring. Nice...

 

Yup. It's encouraging to see that Paragon is keeping its word on such an important issue. I just wish they'd do a lttle more work on their user interface and documentation, but those are relatively minor criticisms.