A substitute for the original?

Discussion in 'FirstDefense-ISR Forum' started by bgoodman4, Oct 26, 2009.

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  1. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

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    I had read on this forum some time ago about a version of the program that allowed you to maintain many isolated and distinct set-ups of a PC. You could have a work environment, a browsing environment, etc, and you could simply switch back and forth between them. I recently became aware of a program called VMware which apparently will allow you to do the same thing (and more). In the Wilders thread where this info came to light I asked if VMware would actually (in a sense) be able to replicate this no longer available Leapfrog program but I have not had any answer,,,,thus I am asking here. Below is a link to the thread in question. I am hoping someone with the original Leapfrog program will also know VMware and will be able to provide a definite yes or no and if no why not. ------- But to me it sure sounds like it will be a yes.

    https://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=256339
     
    bgoodman4, Oct 26, 2009
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  2. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Well I've never used VMware but I have used the free open source Virtual Box which is similar. No, they are not like FirstDefense. Yes you can do more with virtual programs but even they cannot do everything that the original classic FirstDefense could. For example with the virtual programs you can install an entire Windows or Linux operating system but you would also have to purchase and have a license for the Windows OS. With FirstDefense you do not need to purchase another operating system but you are limited to using only Windows and only those with the NTFS filing system. However within those constraints, if you can call them constraints, you have almost unlimited flexibility with system configurations, etc., and you can have as many "c drives" as you wish.

    Acadia
     
    Acadia, Oct 26, 2009
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  3. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Other then the fact VM Workstation isn't free, and yes you do need a license for the VM, I'd say the answer is yes indeed.

    In fact with VM Workstation machines you can probably do more. You can even take a snapshot, and format the drive. Restore the snapshot and your back in business.

    Only minor issue is boot time. You have to boot the host, and then boot the VM.

    Pete
     
    Peter2150, Oct 26, 2009
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  4. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Thats what I thought,,,,great to know for sure,,,thanks.
     
    bgoodman4, Oct 28, 2009
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  5. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Since you can virtualize your existing OS and hardware there is no need to purchase any Windows (or Mac if that what you own) OS since you have already done that,,,,,which would be the same with the original First Defence. At a min you could clone your existing set-up as many times as you wish and modify them in any way you wish. Now you have as many distinct, cost free (other than the original PC purchase and the cost of VMware) virtual machines as you see fit. I also really like the fact that it is possible to transport your virtual machines on a USB drive and use it anywhere (in truth I just read about the program and this last was mentioned. I have no idea how it works).

    Pretty awesome.
     
    bgoodman4, Oct 28, 2009
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  6. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    With true virtual programs such as vmWare, you cannot clone your current OS and you need to purchase a license for another. Of course there is always the free Linux which is what I experimented with since I could not afford to purchase another Windows.

    Acadia
     
    Acadia, Oct 28, 2009
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  7. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Actually once you have the first VMware virtural machine you can clone that and there isn't a license problem. BUT, to build the original machine there is even with a restore of the host, as you are putting the OS on a different machine.
     
    Peter2150, Oct 28, 2009
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  8. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Peter, you lost me, could you clarify that somehow please, thank you.

    Acadia
     
    Acadia, Oct 28, 2009
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  9. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    You install VMware workstation. Now you can either install and OS from scratch or do an image restore of your host into the VM machine. In either case you really need a 2nd license, as even with the restore, Windows will recognize it's a different machine.

    Once you have a functioning licensed VM machine in Workstation, you can clone it, essentially making another machine which you can take down another path. Since it looks like the original, windows doesn't see it as a separate machine.

    Pete
     
    Peter2150, Oct 28, 2009
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  10. aigle

    aigle Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    I guess u can,t use a clone/ clones of ur VM due to licencing issues/ ethics unless u delete orginal machine? Am I right?
     
    aigle, Oct 28, 2009
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  11. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Right, that is what I thought, so you really do need to purchase another license in order to get things started; you can't do your first clone until you do that.

    Acadia
     
    Acadia, Oct 28, 2009
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  12. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    The first VM machine I am using another license as I had to to activate. The clones aren't a new machine, and since there is no activation issue, I don't worry about it.

    Same with all software on the original machine, until you install new versions where you input the license. Then it's another story.
     
    Peter2150, Oct 28, 2009
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  13. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Correct, the clones are free but to begin this entire process in the first place, before you can do ANYTHING, you must purchase another license, correct?

    Acadia
     
    Acadia, Oct 28, 2009
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  14. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Yes, indeed
     
    Peter2150, Oct 28, 2009
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  15. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Let me see if I understand this, I own a Windows licence. The licence is for the OS on my current PC. I pay for VMware Workstation and install it on my PC. I install VMware vCenter Converter on my PC and virtualize my PC......You are telling me I cannot do this without sending cash to MS for a new licence because this virtual OS is not on the same machine?

    I don't get this. VMware Workstation is a program on my PC and this is OK, but what the program does while on my PC is somehow not on the physical machine,,,its somewhere else...... Where exactly would that be? Presumably VMware will not function if its not installed on a functional computer, so how could anyone think that the virtualized machine,,,which is an exact replica of the physical machine and its OS and programs, and is reliant on that real world PCs functionality for it to exist at all, is somehow a 2nd, distinct PC.

    I could understand this if I wanted to install a Windows OS into/onto a VM on, for example, a Mac, but it makes no sense what-so-ever if all I want to do is virtualize my existing, legal set-up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2009
    bgoodman4, Oct 30, 2009
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  16. aigle

    aigle Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Both are separate distinct systems. You can even change their hardware specification too.

    Besides, MS wants another licence. That,s all. IMO MS must had allowed one VM without licence atleast for home users.
     
    aigle, Oct 30, 2009
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  17. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    I believe that a true virtual system is legally considered a different machine, why?, I don't know, but that's the way it appears to be treated. VmWare even creates its own virtual hard drive. I found it frustrating too, seeing how it was all on just one "physical" machine but then again, I have never understood anything legal.

    Acadia
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2009
    Acadia, Oct 30, 2009
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  18. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Your assumption that it's an exact replica is incorrect. My real computer has 3 hard drives, two in a Raid 0 configuration of 640gb and one of 320ghb. My virtual machine has two drives both of 20gb. On one of my clones I added a 3rd drive.

    Plus the VM machine is just like real hardware. If you want to add an extra drive, you have to do everything you'd do in real hardware. First you add the drive, then boot windows, and go thru the whole initialization and format process for a new drive. To software running on the VM it is a completely different computer.

    When I was testing HIR restores with SP, and I'd restore an image from machine B on machine A, Windows would pop up and say it needs activation. I didn't but just restored the original machine image.

    Same thing here. You are building literally a computer with in a computer, and windows see's it as a totally different machine. Bottom line is the license agreement is very specific.
     
    Peter2150, Oct 30, 2009
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  19. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Very interesting and somewhat bizarre, but what is,,is.

    So why does this not apply to other virtualization programs. Is it because with other programs you cannot be running multiple machines simultaneously? That you cannot simply bounce between VMs at will? Also, I guess this means if i were to have more than 2 VMs with VMware I would need additional licences, one for each machine.

    ----Peter, when you say
    are you talking about adding a virtual drive or a physical drive to the VM?

    This program is very interesting and using it sounds rather complex,,,not just from a technical point of view but also from a legal / moral one.

    Are snapshots of a particular VM considered separate machines? I read (or think I read) that you can somehow get away with having just 2 licences, one for the host, and one for the guest. If this is the case under what circumstances do you need more than 2 licences.

    NO doubt this discussion should more properly be taking place in the software forum since it has totally moved out of the realm of First-Defence so if a moderator (Peter) would like to move the thread......

    Oh yes, speaking of FD, how was the original FD able to able to get around the licence issue? It seems to me that you were able to do pretty much what we are talking about here in regards to WMware.

    Also, if Vbox does add a snapshot feature like VMwares would this mean you would need multiple licences for it as well?
     
    bgoodman4, Oct 30, 2009
    #19
  20. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    All other true virtual machine programs such as Virtual Box and the free Microsoft program (I forget its name) would also have the same licensing issues. With First Defense you are still using the same hard drive and the same "machine".

    Acadia
     
    Acadia, Oct 30, 2009
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  21. Peter2150

    Peter2150 Global Moderator

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    1. If you build two VM's from scratch yes two licenses. But if you build 1, and then clone it only one license necessary.

    2. Snapshots are all part of the same machine. They are sort of images in time.

    3. Your question about physical vs virtualo_O All drives on VM machines, are actually physical files on the host machine. But to the VM machine, they are very real disk drives, can be formated defragged what ever.

    First Defense actually works very well in Vm Machines. Sort of does boggle the imagination. My mind still warps a bit as a watch a computer booting in a window on my host.
     
    Peter2150, Oct 30, 2009
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  22. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    So how does this differ from me cloning my physical system? Don't get me wrong, if this is what I have to do I will do it or look for some other solution but it does seems a bit bizzare to me.


    Understood

    It does boggle the mind for sure.
     
    bgoodman4, Oct 30, 2009
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  23. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    I am pretty sure one of the reasons some folks like VBox etc. is because you do NOT need to buy a 2nd licence. It makes no sense to me why this would be the case. Also I have a paid version of Returnil on my PC and there was no need to get a 2nd licence for this program. Returnil will not work for me as it will not survive a reboot and you often need to reboot when testing software or tweaking the OS.
     
    bgoodman4, Oct 30, 2009
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  24. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Returnil is what is called a "lite" virtual program, you cannot install another entire operating system into it, create a virtual hard drive, etc. All lite virtual programs use the pc's hard drive and do not create anything new.

    The reason that people like Virtual Box is that it is free. If you use it to install another Operating System other than Linux, then you do indeed need to purchase another license.

    Acadia
     
    Acadia, Oct 30, 2009
    #24
  25. bgoodman4

    bgoodman4 Registered Member

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    Re: A substitue for the original?

    Thank you for clarifying this.
     
    bgoodman4, Oct 30, 2009
    #25
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