A few Rollback RX questions concerning SSDs!

Discussion in 'backup, imaging & disk mgmt' started by ratchet, Feb 3, 2013.

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  1. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    It's all thanks to Pandlouk's proggie, i didn't do anything. As a matter of fact, some months ago, when i has just bought my SSD and was about to install Rollback, i wrote about my doubts about how they managed to make TRIM work, but i couldn't imagine too that "works with TRIM" would mean "we found a way to get rid of TRIM so that our program has no trouble with it". :D

    At this point, i consider a fortunate coincidence that Rollback was filling my event viewer with errors, which forced me to uninstall it after short period of time. At least my SSD didn't suffer for long.
     
  2. Keatah

    Keatah Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    Thanks for doing all the investigative work and commentary; I couldn't find the time to sit down with this and do comprehensive testing.

    It really pisses me off to have to interpret "It works with TRIM" as "It disables trim." I guess that's marketing speak. Bastardized for sure. I certainly feel taken aback by this.

    I'm advising all my clients to remove RB if they have it installed. I'm also happy to say that while I initially felt it was a solid product - something wasn't quite right when one of my colleagues couldn't get a clear answer on exactly how trim was handled. I forwarded this thread to him and hopefully he'll come to the same conclusion I have. Do not run RB on SSD.

    Or better yet, just use the time tested strategy of backup imaging. At least you won't burn out your SSD.
     
  3. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    Yep, i do my good old trusty Macrium images, waiting for a viable alternative (Isso, that's your job! :D ).

    It's topics like this one that made me suspicious:

    http://horizondatasys-forum.com/rollback-rx/4235-rollback-rx-ssd-4.html

    Look at what the Rollback support replied to a user:

    "Hi, the Trim command does get executed on the RB protected SSD drive, if not Windows will report all kind of errors. It's basically a workaround we have done in Rollback's filter drivers. Unfortunately we cannot tell you how it is done. Because we have a few competitors who are using the similar approach of disk filter drivers. If the information is out there, they can quickly catch up on this. We hope you can understand. Thanks."


    I am not a programmer, but, i find it hard to believe, that they found an "ultrasecret" way to do it, which another specialist coder in the sector of snapshot programs, couldn't figure out by analyzing Rollback's behaviour...

    The other remarkable thing is the topic started in 2011, arrived in 2013 and the only thing a dev felt to say about it is an offtopic reply in the last page.


    People call me paranoid, but i always say "trusting is good, not trusting is better". For some reason, people tend to regard software developers as a quasi-species of a higher category of human beings, who would never try to exploit you for money, like ordinary professionals that you meet in a shop in everday's life. I never understood why, it's probably more related to the fact you don't see them and that security-related software, makes them appear automatically surrounded by a cloak of trustworthiness, but i treat all people the same. Trust is gained, not gifted.
     
  4. Keatah

    Keatah Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!


    The question was whether RB turns of trim. Not the difference between GC and TRIM.
     
  5. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    Technically RB doesn't turn off TRIM. In Windows it's enabled. The problem is that it seems the TRIM command is sent, but then is diverted by Rollback's driver into a black hole and never reaches its destination. :D Quite elegant as solution, although a bit misleading...

    More than "making Rollback work with TRIM", it seems what they did is "how to make Rollback work, despite TRIM". A subtle difference in wording, but important in results. :)
     
  6. Keatah

    Keatah Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    My last post here for a while (so I don't monopolize the thread), but you have no IDEA how EMBARRASSING I now feel having recommended this (RBRX) on a few occasions. Thankfully it's only been a few.

    ********'ed **********ers!! Crap evasive answer. I read that thread too. Should have been more thorough and picked up on it.

    Well I guess it's my fault for not fully examining the behavior, but who has that kind of time, I sure as hell don't.

    I've already sent emails out to the clients that I have recommended this program to that have SSD's. A full and complete apology at recommending something that could potentially cause performance and lifespan issues. Furthermore I've offered to replace and upgrade their SSD at no cost. Perhaps to the next level capacity if the price is right.

    Disabling TRIM, being evasive about it. Mis-leading technical responses. GASP!! Doing background snapshot defrags! That's a no-no on SSD!

    It only reinforces the old adage that "Trust is earned, not given."

    PFAGGGHHH!! Anybody guess I'm steaming mad?
     
  7. Keatah

    Keatah Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    But TRIM never gets to the SSD. Might as well be turned off..
     
  8. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    Yes, but Windows thinks it's turned on, so Windows is happy and Rollback that knows the truth is also happy, because it solved the issue of how to handle TRIM. Users that are assured that "works with TRIM" are also happy! :D The system has kept everyone happy thus far! If it wasn't for Pandlouk's proggie, everyone would remain happy for a long time still!

    Yes, i think i can tell you 're angry! ;) If only Pandlouk hadn't found that proggie, you would have been happy too now! One program and all the happiness is gone...

    Seriously now, i understand that it's embarassing for a professional like you, to have to tell your clients now the "uncomfortable truth".
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2013
  9. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    For the history, using Pandlouk's proggie, this is what Rollback users would want to see, if their TRIM is working as SSD manufacturer intended (on the 2nd run):


    1.png
     
  10. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    You 're welcome.:)

    Unfortunately your experience is not the exception but the rule. (RBRX does not send any trim commands to the ssd)

    Panagiotis
     
  11. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    Fuzzfas, i did nothing.
    I only gave a link to a program that makes the testing of trim very easy, so that everyone can check if it works on his/hers system, without having any knowledge about trim commands, disk architecture, hex editors, etc.

    All the kudos should go to the developer of "SSD TRIM check tool".

    Panagiotis
     
  12. pandlouk

    pandlouk Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    Keatah,
    horizondatasys never said that they support trim. They said that RollBackRX can be installed on ssds with trim support and that they do not disable the trim commands of the OS (both are true).

    They only avoided giving a direct answer to the users questions about how RollBackRX handles the trim commands. It is the users that mistakenly intercepted them as "RollBackRx supports trim".

    Panagiotis
     
  13. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    That's true.

    RollBack Rx V9.1 newest build supports solid-state drive with TRIM

    http://horizondatasys-forum.com/hor...build-supports-solid-state-drive-trim-ht.html

    They meant, that it supports SSD which has TRIM. They didn't specify that they also support TRIM! :argh: They left the rest to the imagination of the users.
     
  14. TheRollbackFrog

    TheRollbackFrog Imaging Specialist

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    Isso, my basis for the statement I made is the following...

    I run an OCZ Agility 3 series SSD (active TRIM support), W7sp1 with FSUTIL showing TRIM to be active and the Marvel 91xx SATA 6g controller (supports ACHI and TRIM passthru). With this combination, Pandlouk's referenced "Trimchk v0.3" shows TRIM to be not "immediate," basically failing the TRIM check.

    BUT, if I look for the deleted file right after its deletion (using a deleted file recovery program), I see it on the surface of the disk (i.e., the Trimchk failure)... If I look a minute or so later on an idle system, it's gone.

    This leads me to believe that the OCZ (or W7) may be deferring the TRIM function until a better time.
     
  15. Isso

    Isso Developer

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    Froggie,

    I'm pretty sure it's the behavior of the SSD controller, because according to my experience Windows doesn't make delay when sending TRIM after file deletion.
    Even the same SSD controller with different firmware versions may handle TRIM inconsistently, or even not handle it at all :)
     
  16. Fuzzfas

    Fuzzfas Registered Member

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    Re: A few Rb RX questions concerning SSDs!

    My Kingston SSD takes 2 seconds to delete (measured with Pandlouk's proggie).
     
  17. Rainwalker

    Rainwalker Registered Member

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    Is there anything available that is compatible with SSD trim?
     
  18. orian

    orian Registered Member

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    I’ve been using Rollback for 5 years and my PC still works ok. Most PCs are built to fail after a few years anyway, so I honestly don’t understand the alarm this thread is expressing.
     
  19. Acadia

    Acadia Registered Member

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    Not the ones that I purchase! :mad:

    Acadia
     
  20. MarcP

    MarcP Registered Member

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    Then you're not paying attention.
     
  21. aladdin

    aladdin Registered Member

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    So you are using SSD for the last 5 years?

    What brand of SSD?

    What model of SSD?
     
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