New AIP Versions

[aladdin]

And, guess what!

Only IFW can do hot imaging of Rollback Rx with all snapshots intact, thanks to The Forg for his efforts.

Best regards,

KOR!

[Aaron Here]

Originally Posted by King of Rapture

Dear Aaron,

Your scienctific test is not fair and you are not comparing apples with apples.

....A fair comparision would be paid Windows version of DS to the paid Windows version of IFW...

KOR, please understand that my tests were about COLD-Imaging and I did not readily have a way to bootup IFW into a PE environment (that's not to say it can't be done, I just didn't have that capability).

I'm sorry if you consider what I did to be unfair. Since the usual means for restoring an IFW image is to use its companion products IFD/IFL, and a number of people actually use IFD/IFL to also backup their system, I decided to include IFD in my first series of tests.

Originally Posted by King of Rapture

Only IFW can do hot imaging of Rollback Rx with all snapshots intact, thanks to The Forg for his efforts.

I'm well aware of that, but again my tests were all about Cold-Imaging (which, in my opinion, is a more reliable method than Hot-Imaging).

Aaron

-------
PS. Your last few posts (and my reply) are off-topic -- the subject here is AIP.

[TheRollbackFrog]

Originally Posted by King of Rapture

Only IFW can do hot imaging of Rollback Rx with all snapshots intact, thanks to The Forg for his efforts.

The "Forg"... I've been called a lot of things but that truly is a first

On topic... I installed AIP HOT on that SATA-only system I mentioned and it failed miserably on a standard backup. BUT... I believe it's a system configuration problem, not an AIP problem.

I also ran a full HOT backup on the IDE-only bench system and it ran just fine. I'll now be testing the HOT RAW backup capability of the product and will report soon.

[aladdin]

Originally Posted by TheRollbackFrog

The "Forg"... I've been called a lot of things but that truly is a first

LOL!

Sorry, for the typo. I can blame it on my old, old advancing age and/or being Ahab The Arab!

LOL!

Best regards,

KOR!

P.S. No offense intended!

[TheRollbackFrog]

Originally Posted by King of Rapture

P.S. No offense intended!

Absolutely no offense taken ... actually a pretty KEWL nickname!

[Aaron Here]

Frog, now that you resolved the AIP-ESS conflict, any results yet on your AIP Hot-Imaging test (of an RB system partition)? If AIP uses VSS I'm betting it will fail to fully restore RB, just like all others (except IFW, of course, with its Phylock driver).

Aaron

[TheRollbackFrog]

Originally Posted by Aaron Here

Frog, now that you resolved the AIP-ESS conflict

I'm not sure uninstalling an entire security system in order to successfully install AIP should be called a resolution... a work around maybe

Originally Posted by Aaron Here

any results yet on your AIP Hot-Imaging test (of an RB system partition)? If AIP uses VSS I'm betting it will fail to fully restore RB, just like all others (except IFW, of course, with its Phylock driver).

Yep, and worse than most. I installed RollbackRX on a base system (protecting only the BOOT partition) and created 3-snapshots with a different software app installed before each snapshot. I then COLD imaged (using Hiren's BOOT CD and BOOTice) the entire Track 0 just in case I needed it for anything (better safe than sorry). I then HOT imaged that 3-snapshot system using the "Include unused sector" option of AIP Personal (FREE version).

I then blew away the partition completely using Active@Kill Disk (zeroed all sectors and deleted the partition. I then recreated a blank ACTIVE partition and restored the RAW AIP image from above, incl. the imaged Track 0 and MBR. As expected, when the restored partition was booted, RollbackRX was inactive and the functional system state at image time was restored... no detectable snapshots.

In the past when testing other HOT imagers in RAW mode, the main reason for RBrx failure upon return was due to the phony MBR RollbackRX would pass the imager during the operation. With most of them I was able to restore the MBR saved during the COLD image above and RollbackRX would become active again. In the case of AIP during this test, I could not re-engage RollbackRX with either an MBR restoration or the entire Track 0... RollbackRX was "breasts" up (this is a multi-gender group, right?). I was never able to reconstruct a running Rollback-enabled system from a HOT AIP image.

This was purely a GO/NoGO test of HOT imaging a Rollback-enabled system, nothing more (no timing performed)... Result=failure.

Comments
----------
1. AIP was very quick at imaging, although it didn't compress anywhere nearly as well when doing a RAW image as when doing a "used sector" image.

2. No, AIP cannot restore a "used sector" image to a smaller partition than what was imaged.

3. I now have a brand new candidate for the absolute WORST RESCUE DISK ever made. I used to think that IFD (Image For DOS) without the newly created mouse support was the KING of brain dead rescue disks, but this AIP Personal rescue disk has just "assumed the position." Don't get me wrong, the actual rescue environment is fine... easy to use, reasonably intuitive, but it takes 6-min. and 28-sec. to get there as you watch the screen wade through more error msgs, enables and activates than I've ever seen in my life. It's RED HAT-based, but since I'm not a EUNICH, I have no idea what the heck it thinks it's doing... it just takes too frickin' long to do it!

Summary - Aaron says it works great for COLD RAW imaging, I believe him (he's tested many). It also works fine as a HOT imager in the "used sector" mode... but based on my experience, I would not trust it to do a complete HOT RAW image if you really need all your sectors like Rollback users do.

---Luvies, the FORG

[napoleon1815]

Thanks for all the insight on this guys. Good to know! IFW seems to still be the champ when it comes to imaging with RB.

[Aaron Here]

Originally Posted by napoleon1815

IFW seems to still be the champ when it comes to imaging with RB.

napoleon,

That really should read 'when it comes to hot-imaging with RB'. ...then there would be very little arguement.

Aaron

[napoleon1815]

Very true...that's what I meant. I know you've had luck doing cold with another excellent product.

[Aaron Here]

Originally Posted by TheRollbackFrog

....worse than most. I installed RollbackRX on a base system (protecting only the BOOT partition) and created 3-snapshots with a different software app installed before each snapshot. I then COLD imaged (using Hiren's BOOT CD and BOOTice) the entire Track 0 just in case I needed it for anything (better safe than sorry). I then HOT imaged that 3-snapshot system using the "Include unused sector" option of AIP Personal (FREE version).

I then blew away the partition completely using Active@Kill Disk (zeroed all sectors and deleted the partition. I then recreated a blank ACTIVE partition and restored the RAW AIP image from above, incl. the imaged Track 0 and MBR. As expected, when the restored partition was booted, RollbackRX was inactive and the functional system state at image time was restored... no detectable snapshots.

In the past when testing other HOT imagers in RAW mode, the main reason for RBrx failure upon return was due to the phony MBR RollbackRX would pass the imager during the operation. With most of them I was able to restore the MBR saved during the COLD image above and RollbackRX would become active again. In the case of AIP during this test, I could not re-engage RollbackRX with either an MBR restoration or the entire Track 0... RollbackRX was "breasts" up (this is a multi-gender group, right?). I was never able to reconstruct a running Rollback-enabled system from a HOT AIP image.Comments

Frog, your hot-raw results sound very much like my original cold-raw results (using v3.0.0)!!!

Originally Posted by TheRollbackFrog

...I now have a brand new candidate for the absolute WORST RESCUE DISK ever made. I used to think that IFD (Image For DOS) without the newly created mouse support was the KING of brain dead rescue disks, but this AIP Personal rescue disk has just "assumed the position." Don't get me wrong, the actual rescue environment is fine... easy to use, reasonably intuitive, but it takes 6-min. and 28-sec. to get there as you watch the screen wade through more error msgs, enables and activates than I've ever seen in my life. It's RED HAT-based, but since I'm not a EUNICH, I have no idea what the heck it thinks it's doing... it just takes too frickin' long to do it!

That reflects the feelings I expressed about their free recovery disk (several posts back).

Originally Posted by TheRollbackFrog

Aaron says it works great for COLD RAW imaging, I believe him (he's tested many)....

Well it's true that I did get a successful restore after cold-raw imaging my RB partition with the latest Desktop Trial version's WinPE Boot CD, but because the Free version's (terrible) Linux Restore CD doesn't offer a backup option I couldn't do a cold-image with it. Just one successful restore doesn't yet make this a 'great' cold-imaging program; we shall see how consistent it will be (but you can bet your boots I'll be playing safe by doing concurrent DS cold-raw backups)!

Aaron

[TheRollbackFrog]

Originally Posted by Aaron Here

Frog, your hot-raw results sound very much like my original cold-raw results (using v3.0.0)!!!

The AIP HOT imager used was v3.0.3.686... go figger.

Aaeon, if you didn't fully erase your partition prior to restoring your COLD image, you may be getting fooled by disk "leftovers" as far as success is concerned... just a thought.

[Aaron Here]

Originally Posted by TheRollbackFrog

...if you didn't fully erase your partition prior to restoring your COLD image, you may be getting fooled by disk "leftovers" as far as success is concerned... just a thought.

Frog,

I sure can't see why/how that can happen...
...seems to me restoring a cold-raw image should over-write every sector of the partition!

Aaron

[TheRollbackFrog]

Originally Posted by Aaron Here

I sure can't see why/how that can happen...
...seems to me restoring a cold-raw image should over-write every sector of the partition!

Well, if your supposition above was correct, then manually restoring (BOOTice) a COLD image of Track 0 (incl. the MBR) would have provided me with a functional Rollback protected BOOT partition following the restore of the HOT partition image... it did not.

I have serious questions about what AIP is actually imaging during an "include unused sectors" pass based on what I saw. I'll keep looking at it to see if I can find out exactly what's missing in the RAW COLD recover of the HOT image.

[treehouse786]

i think both of you guys are correct. if i remember correctly, it depends on the program used as to whether a cold raw image restore would restore all sectors, some programs take 'shortcuts'.

[Aaron Here]

Originally Posted by TheRollbackFrog

Well, if your supposition above was correct, then manually restoring (BOOTice) a COLD image of Track 0 (incl. the MBR) would have provided me with a functional Rollback protected BOOT partition following the restore of the HOT partition image... it did not.

I have serious questions about what AIP is actually imaging during an "include unused sectors" pass based on what I saw. I'll keep looking at it to see if I can find out exactly what's missing in the RAW COLD recover of the HOT image.

Frog, I see where you are coming from, but don't overlook the major difference in our backup images - your backup image was a hot-raw whereas mine was a cold-raw! Isn't it also possible that BOOTice didn't properly capture your RB-protected MBR?
(just wondering, as I've never used BOOTice).

Aaron

------
PS. In any case, while you're investigating AIP's hot-raw process, within the next few days I will again restore my RB system partition with the same (previously successful) AIP cold-raw image - but this time I will wipe my partition before restoring which will be nail-biting time as I've never done that before (I'll be placing my faith in a DS 'safety-valve' backup)!!!

[Aaron Here]

Originally Posted by treehouse786

....if i remember correctly, it depends on the program used as to whether a cold raw image restore would restore all sectors, some programs take 'shortcuts'.

treehouse,

While I don't doubt what you are saying, imho any such 'shortcut' is a major design-flaw in a disk-imaging program.

Aaron

[TheRollbackFrog]

Originally Posted by Aaron Here

Frog, I see where you are coming from, but don't overlook the major difference in our backup images - your backup image was a hot-raw whereas mine was a cold-raw! Isn't it also possible that BOOTice didn't properly capture your RB-protected MBR?
(just wondering, as I've never used BOOTice).

Well... RAW is RAW, ALL sectors on the partition, they shouldn't be different unless Rollback is holding more back then just the real MBR.

I've used BOOTice mega times, most recently when HOT testing with IFW... it's a fairly simple and fairly solid tool. One of its modes is to save from 1 to 63 sectors when processing the MBR, a very useful option since you can restore from 1-63 from the same save (if all 63 are there). I do trust it when the save is NOT done under the questionable Windows environment (under Hiren's Mini-XP or WinPE or BartPE).

I guess my only question would be what does VSS (via Rollback) give the imager (AIP) for an ALL SECTOR image vs PhyLock (IFW) for the same operation. Remember, this is NOT a used sector only image... it should be all that the above combinations think are all the sectors. Possibly VSS only offers all sectors EXCEPT the database redirected ones protected by Rollback where PhyLock (via IFW) get's them all.

Don't wanna get too deep here if I can help it... not a lotta time available for this type of testing.

[Aaron Here]

Originally Posted by TheRollbackFrog

Well... RAW is RAW, ALL sectors on the partition, they shouldn't be different...

It would be nice if only we could count on that being the case, but from what I've experienced with various disk-imagers (and even between the previous and current AIP builds), I'm not ready to accept that statement.

Originally Posted by TheRollbackFrog

Possibly VSS only offers all sectors EXCEPT the database redirected ones protected by Rollback where PhyLock (via IFW) get's them all.

Yup, and because of that possibility, as well as VSS-errors (which I've experienced in the past), I simply don't trust it ...and that's the main reason why I've been cold-raw imaging my RB system drives!

Aaron

[treehouse786]

Originally Posted by Aaron Here

treehouse,

While I don't doubt what you are saying, imho any such 'shortcut' is a major design-flaw in a disk-imaging program.

Aaron

Definately. Its the reason why we i use Active@ Boot Disk/Disk Image, no nonsense raw images

[napoleon1815]

I don't use RB but only do cold imaging...avoids a lot of potential issues and no worries about something not backing up correctly. IFL is tops for this...and thanks to Aaron, DS on a WinPE.

[Aaron Here]

Originally Posted by treehouse786

Definately. Its the reason why we i use Active@ Boot Disk/Disk Image, no nonsense raw images

treehouse, when testing ADI (in my Cold Imaging Competition thread), I found it reliable, but slow!

Originally Posted by napoleon1815

I don't use RB but only do cold imaging...avoids a lot of potential issues and no worries about something not backing up correctly. IFL is tops for this...and thanks to Aaron, DS on a WinPE.

napoleon, how do you manage to do cold-imaging with IFW?

Aaron

[aladdin]

Originally Posted by Aaron Here

napoleon, how do you manage to do cold-imaging with IFW?

Aaron

Dear Aaron,

I have already posted the instructions for you in your Cold Imaging Competition thread. Use WAIK to create a WinPE rescue disk of IFW for cold imaging.

BTW, can you point me to the thread where you have posted instructions to create WinPE rescue disk for DS?

Many thanks in advance!

Best regards,

KOR!

[MerleOne]

Originally Posted by Aaron Here

treehouse, when testing ADI (in my Cold Imaging Competition thread), I found it reliable, but slow!




napoleon, how do you manage to do cold-imaging with IFW?

Aaron

Don't you just need to build a IFW or IFD bootable media to perform a cold image ? It's integrated in the IFD & IFL distributions, just launch makedisk.exe (I prefer to use IFL bootable media, it's usually faster) to build the media.

[aladdin]

Originally Posted by MerleOne

Don't you just need to build a IFW or IFD bootable media to perform a cold image ? It's integrated in the IFD & IFL distributions, just launch makedisk.exe (I prefer to use IFL bootable media, it's usually faster) to build the media.

For IFD and IFL the above is true, but for IFW you can use WAIK to built WinPE rescue disk.

Best regards,

KOR!

P.S. Please see my above post #73.