Spam?

[Lamehand]

Hello moderators;
I have a question about spam on these boards, what is this, is this board-spam, board-phishing (to introduce a new term). I can't place this so i turn to you.
I've read the TOS, but that didn't provide anymore clarity.

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=132994

regards
Lamehand

[LowWaterMark]

Well, that's an example of a border-line one. We looked at it, and while it has some spam-like feel to it, it also has some aspect of being a public warning, although it's a little thin. We decided to leave it and see what other people thought about it. The members here are usually pretty good at judging these things for themselves.

Regarding spam in general, a lot of things get considered before making a judgment of spamming. We look at the exact wording of the post, the history of the poster, (both past contributions and/or past spamming), the quality of the product mentioned, the context of when it was posted, and what's going on with the forum and with the product at the time. Some border-line things stay for the members to make the call for themselves. But, those that tip the scale to a "too spammy" tilt get removed.

[Lamehand]

Oke, thanks for the information.
One more thing; what has the quality of a product to do with wether it is called spamming or not? I would say; it's all bad and what quality the application has bares no weight in the decision to remove it.
But then again i'am a bit harsh at times.

Lamehand

[MikeBCda]

Obviously the definition of spamming can get fuzzy at times, and is up to the individual site operator(s) to determine on a case by case basis.

I'm a mod at a head-injury group over at Yahoo, and there's been several "admin" discussions about how we define spam. The list-owner and myself are both keen on Eudora as a mailer, and often recommend it to members when they're having mail problems. We agreed that in this case, it falls into the gray-but-acceptable zone mainly since we're not connected with Eurora/Qualcomm, or involved in its distribution.

(Edit) As a P.S., here you'll often see fuzzy/questionable items "removed for admin review" until a decision's been made about whether or not they're acceptable.

[Lamehand]

Oke, thanks for the further explanation Mike, i understand it's not always that obvious what is or isn't spam.


regards

[HandsOff]

Pretty close to spam, but I agree it is borderline.

I've never used Prevx but heard it was pretty good. One thing the poster may have in their favor is a degree of expertise. If they are actively studying the trends and are making a prediction it might be good to hear that out a few times and see if they are presenting useful information or not. The month end trend thing is interesting if true. What will they say next time?


-HandsOff

[Lamehand]

As i understand it, this product has is own forum at castlecops.com, so if they want to post statistics about whatever they see fit, that's the place to be.Furthermore they run their own site(s) aswell ofcourse.
My reason for asking the moderators on this was that i found this posting,altough it has no malicious intent, on the spam-side of things because of the fact it is riddled with links to their site and the obvious plugging of the product. But that is my opinion and i'm not running this board so i asked to get some clarity in the matter.

You see HandsOff, i don't find the level of expertise or the good intentions a criterium to conclude if something is spam or not and i hope they will refrain from posting this kind of things in the future.

regards

[HandsOff]

Lamehand-


I did not realize that I had said that the expertise of the writer was the determiner as to whether what they write is spam or not. You say that you wrote to ask for clarification about what is spam and what isn't.

The response from the moderators is that they too were concerned that it may have crossed the line, and that they have found in the past, that a good barometer of whether something is spam is the reactions of the members.

You expression an opinion, that was really not so ambivalent that you need to keep repeating it.

MikeBCda had an opinion.

I see no harm in my stating my opinion. As you pointed out, you do not run this bulletin board. If you do not agree with my opinion, I can live with that, but don't put words in my mouth. Information or spam? You imply that a writer's expertise in a topic has nothing to do with with whether the information may be considered to offset what you believe to be spam. Did you even read LowWaterMark's response?

Lamehand, you have provided a lot of valuable information on a number of different topics, and I do appreciate that. I have little doubt but that you know a great deal about computer security issues.

But, you see, Lamehand, my opinion is based on what I think, and I guess I am the expert on that.


-HandsOff

[Lamehand]

HandsOff, i don't want to deprive you of your opinion, far from it, i just responded to the fact that you mentioned the quality of the product, that's all.
If i came over a bit direct or harsh in my response to you, believe me this was in no way my intention, and if so experienced by you i apologize for that.
The written word can be a devil sometimes and if not well composed misinterpeted.
I hope you understand.

Greetings
Lamehand

[HandsOff]

Hi Lamehand -

No, I harbor no ill feelings. You help people alot and I believe actions speak louder than words. If I was a little shaken it was do to the tremdous strain of trying to be tolerant of the Prevx thing. You were just making your point, and I don't even doubt that you could well be right. I just don't see that it hurts to let nature take its course.

I am not oblivious to the fact that coming here and trying to disguise spam as information is an insult. When its borderline I can ignore it. However borderline + borderline + borderline does not = borderline, it equals obvious. I don't mind waiting till it's obvious, that's all. Today, he could say they got all uptight just because...No, I like someone to show his true colors so all I have to do is go down the laundry list. No big points to weigh. Just, "Look, buddy, this has gone on long enough, there's the door, use it."

I expect you and I will almost always be on the same side. Or at least if we are not, I won't be feeling good about it.

-HandsOff

[Lamehand]

Well, i wanted this out of the way, because i don't like those ill feelings either.
Thanks for your reply.

(of to have some coffee)
Lamehand

[HandsOff]

I'd get some coffee too, but I try to keep it down to one pot a day, and today it just dissappeared early on!

-HandsOff

[MikeBCda]

Originally Posted by HandsOff

MikeBCda had an opinion.

Let me add to that, by the way. It should go without saying, but perhaps I should clarify, that my group's definition is strictly for our own purposes within that group, and I don't think a "dictionary" definition of spam, applying everywhere, is possible or even desirable.

[Smokey]

Originally Posted by LowWaterMark

Well, that's an example of a border-line one. We looked at it, and while it has some spam-like feel to it, it also has some aspect of being a public warning, although it's a little thin. We decided to leave it and see what other people thought about it. The members here are usually pretty good at judging these things for themselves.

I classify it as spam.

It is an unsolicited free advertisement for a product, the thread is tricky designed as "warning", but the reader is give the impression only their product will solve certain infections, "competetors are struggling with these infections".

They are ending the thread with:

~snip~ cares

The only care here is sales volume.

[Lamehand]

The trouble with these 'spam' things is you can't define a clear defenition for it.
I mean, what one considers spam another person might see as informative and usefull.
If there was a clear defenition for this like say for instance; "Any posting that promotes in a overt or disguised manner a product, with malicious intent or otherwise will be removed."
If that was used to control spam on the board even a normal member could get into trouble.
A posting like "Hey i found this fantastic product xxx on the internet and i've been using it for a month now and i highly recommend it to everybody" would be removed in a blink of an eye.

So what is considered spam then? I think it will always be a matter of opinion, except in the obvious cases ofcourse.

(running to the drugstore for some headache medicin)
Lamehand

[Smokey]

Originally Posted by Lamehand

So what is considered spam then? I think it will always be a matter of opinion, except in the obvious cases ofcourse.

Correct.

But in this case IMHO it's obvious: spam in a tricky package.
Producing a warning, and in the very same alert giving the solution: "take our product, the only reliable way to get rid of the nasty".

(running to the drugstore for some headache medicin)

This announcement is classified as being NOT spam

[Lamehand]

Smokey, i am not disagreeing with you on that , that was/is my opinion on this one too.
What i was trying to say is that specially in those 'borderline'-cases it becomes a matter of opinion and it would be difficult to make some distinct rules for that.

regards

[Smokey]

Originally Posted by Lamehand

Smokey, i am not disagreeing with you on that , that was/is my opinion on this one too.
What i was trying to say is that specially in those 'borderline'-cases it becomes a matter of opinion and it would be difficult to make some distinct rules for that.

It would be nice, when the forum mods/admins let shine their bright light on the subject of our opinion

We both have the same opinon: it's spam.
I gave my arguments, now it's their turn

[Bubba]

it would be difficult to make some distinct rules for that

Rules? We dont need no stinkin rules....Butch Casidy

Originally Posted by Smokey

It would be nice, when the forum mods/admins let shine their bright light on the subject of our opinion
I gave my arguments, now it's their turn

LWM answered fairly well in his above post

Originally Posted by LWM

Regarding spam in general, a lot of things get considered before making a judgment of spamming. We look at the exact wording of the post, the history of the poster, (both past contributions and/or past spamming), the quality of the product mentioned, the context of when it was posted, and what's going on with the forum and with the product at the time. Some border-line things stay for the members to make the call for themselves. But, those that tip the scale to a "too spammy" tilt get removed.

[Smokey]

Originally Posted by Bubba

Rules? We dont need no stinkin rules....Butch Casidy

Butch was born in the year 1866.
We are now 150 years later, some "stinkin" rules can never hurt, in former and present times

LWM answered fairly well in his above post

Correct, but not the particular arguments to consider this thread as "not too spammy"

[LowWaterMark]

I gave the general overview on how we handle spam here, so people will know that we make case by case decisions and don't try to define an absolute set of rules. As mentioned by Lamehand, you really can't make distinct rules that will absolutely identify spam in every case, without taking out some innocent posts at the same time. In any case, I'm not going to go into any more detail on any specific posting, whether that post has been removed or allowed to remain on the forum.

[HandsOff]

Originally Posted by Bubba

Rules? We dont need no stinkin rules....Butch Casidy
LWM answered fairly well in his above post

"Badges, we don't need no stinkin badges"

My guns are my badges!

I still don't see the harm in letting play out, but I would be less patient if this were constantly happening (if I noticed, that is).