Some questions re FD-ISR and BING

[Longboard]

I know I have been bit of a nauseating booster for BING since I got it.
Stand by everything I've said so far

Have back-up removable EIDE drive in USB connected enclosure and have been testing various imaging/copy restores and partition options without problem so far.

I have been lurking around following the comments about FDISR and BING.
Have shelved Rollback pro-tem. Rollback seemed to be a bit fragile and complex for use with BING and other options at this point.

I think that FDISR may well give me another option for an easier recovery in a working environment while keeping BING from floppy as primary back-up.

BING is not installed, I am currently using the boot floppy (and IFW from within Windows,) this gives access to all partition work and image/copy functions. The TBIview app has worked well.

For starters:

Will BING image the FDISR "snapshots/archives"?
will BING partition manouvering upset the FDISR system.?
Will I be able to boot from floppy with BING if FDISR preboot is enabled?
Will Sysinternals defrag (my favourite option for defrag)utility work with FDISR

wrt FD_ISR: I am likely to really need only one or two snapshots. Can it make incremental changes to snapshots or do I have to re-do whole image.

Is there a place I can get the FDISR manual? Can't seem to see it...

Thanks.

[Blackcat]

Originally Posted by Longboard

Is there a place I can get the FDISR manual? Can't seem to see it...

Thanks.

There you go; the User Guide.

[Peter2150]

Hi Longboard

Have to run, but later if no one else has replied I will reply in detail.

Pete

[Longboard]

Blackcat thankyou...doh!

Peter, thankyou, was hoping you might.

..and heaven forbid that i might want to uninstall FDISR, but if I did what happens to the snapshot data?..

Lbd

[wilbertnl]

Originally Posted by Longboard

Will BING image the FDISR "snapshots/archives"?

If BING images the complete C: partition, then all the snapshots will be included, the snapshots reside as subfolders in c:\$ISR. Your BING image will increase in size. Archives are included when they reside on the imaged C: partition.

Originally Posted by Longboard

will BING partition manouvering upset the FDISR system?

I'm not sure what that means, but don't change the disk name 'C:' or move $ISR around.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Longboard

Will I be able to boot from floppy with BING if FDISR preboot is enabled?

Yes, but I'm not sure which of the ISR snapshots will be visible for you, maybe the last active.

Originally Posted by Longboard

Will Sysinternals defrag (my favourite option for defrag)utility work with FDISR

Yes it will, it helps if you are able to exclude c:\$ISR.

Originally Posted by Longboard

wrt FD_ISR: I am likely to really need only one or two snapshots. Can it make incremental changes to snapshots or do I have to re-do whole image.

Yes you would update incrementally, but the update is final, which means that you are not able to start with the initial complete snapshot and work yourself step by step though the incremental updates.

Originally Posted by Longboard

Is there a place I can get the FDISR manual? Can't seem to see it...

The helpfile is pretty complete as manual.

Hope it helps, Longboard

[Longboard]

@wilbertnl
thanks..like the sig, could be me.LOL

By "manoverings" I meant using different copies of my system in different partitions created by BING and then making any one of them the active boot partition by moving them to the ist partition on the HDO volume. BING does not always rename the partitions. There is the clear sig option but I am not sure what effect if any that might have on the MBR. Probably none? I was unsure what effects this might have on FDISR options.

There are ways to get Windows to re-align the partitions with the active boot partition 'C' in the standard nomenclature conventions at each reboot, again I'm not sure about the MBR and FDISR.

What is the MBR?
At the end of the ROM BIOS bootstrap routine, the BIOS reads and executes the first physical sector of the first floppy or hard disk on the system. This first sector of the hard disk is called the master boot record (or sometimes the partition table or master boot block). There is a small program at the beginning of this sector of the hard disk. The partition information, or partition table, is stored at the end of this sector. This program uses the partition information to determine which partition is bootable (usually the first primary DOS partition) and attempts to boot from it.

I suspect that the MBR is not altered by BING as long as the "keep HD0 active" option is enabled and yuor boot partition is as above on HD0.

If only I really knew what I was talking about!! LOL. Just quoting bits of the terabyte help FAQ. I am in contact with Terabyte about this.

Thanks again.

[Peter2150]

Hi Longboard

I am back. Wilbertnl did a good job of answering your questions.

I've never used Bing, or any partitioning software so I can't answer questions about that.

All the disk imaging programs and some backup programs will include all the snapshots. Nothing wrong with that other than they are that much bigger and take that much longer. Main thing is as Todd recommended disable preboot before imaging.

You can use any defragger. You don't need to exclude the c:\$isr directory. That would exclude your snapshots. Just exclude the file c:\$isr\0\$isrbin
This is the file FDISR needs for preboot. Note that if you don't exclude it you aren't doing any permenant damage. Your first boot after defrag you wouldn't see the preboot screen. After the first boot FDISR finds it and after that you would see it.

As far as incremental. FDISR doesn't have incrementals as such. Say you have a Primary snapshot you work in and a secondary snapshot that is a week old. You refresh the secondary snapshot. What you have done is make the secondary snapshot identical with the primary. The differences aren't kept anywhere.

Hope this helps.

Pete

[crofttk]

Originally Posted by Longboard

...and heaven forbid that i might want to uninstall FDISR, but if I did what happens to the snapshot data?..

When you uninstall, the FD-ISR uninstall routine will give you the choice of just removing the program files OR the program files PLUS the snapshots, schedules, etc. Opting to remove ONLY the program, you'll see that the $ISR folder structure containing your snapshots is still intact and contains your snapshots. Just remember that your primary snapshot is not preserved becasue that's what you'll be operating in from there on out.

As far as re-partitioning with BING goes, you just have to be aware of the same limitation on relocating $isrbin as with defragmenting. As Pete mentioned, one boot cycle should allow FD-ISR to straighten itself out and you may or may not have to re-enable the pre-boot screen from within FD-ISR's "Actions" menu -- in any event, always heed BING's advice to have your system backed-up/imaged before moving partitions around and as mentioned above, a complete image of your system partition will contain all of your snapshots.

IMO, It's a lot easier to just cover all your bases with an extra image or two, despite the good advice you certainly get here, because none of us are infallible and your mileage could vary for some unforseen reason.

[wilbertnl]

Originally Posted by Longboard

I suspect that the MBR is not altered by BING as long as the "keep HD0 active" option is enabled and yuor boot partition is as above on HD0.

What I understand from your info is that BING enables you to reorder the partition table, and by that way the second or third partition might behave like c:.

This is going to be a problem when you activate FirstDefense-ISR preOS, which starts from the MBR at boot time.
The reason is that in the MBR the location of c:\$ISR is hard coded, so FirstDefense-ISR won't recognize your partition table reshufling. It might still load the same file that probably is now named e:\$ISR, and unexpected behaviour is the result.

Your option would be to disable the MBR preOS in FirstDefense-ISR, which leaves you with the option of changing to a different snapshot after windows is booted.

[crofttk]

Originally Posted by wilbertnl

...This is going to be a problem when you activate FirstDefense-ISR preOS, which starts from the MBR at boot time.
The reason is that in the MBR the location of c:\$ISR is hard coded, so FirstDefense-ISR won't recognize your partition table reshufling. It might still load the same file that probably is now named e:\$ISR, and unexpected behaviour is the result.

Your option would be to disable the MBR preOS in FirstDefense-ISR, which leaves you with the option of changing to a different snapshot after windows is booted.

I think there's an echo in here.

Longboard, as Pete explained earlier in this thread and as is pointed out in other threads in this forum, movement of $isrbin is not the problem that it used to be, it's more of an inconvenience.

I wanted to point out in this thread, however, as we discussed in another thread, IME BING and FD-ISR live together well, as long as you aren't using BING's extended partitioning capability, i.e., that which allows up to 200 primary partitions, and hence are using a more or less standard parttitioning arrangement. I have no experience with FD-ISR alongside BING with "enhanced" partitioning but I would be leary of problems with that.

[Longboard]

Whew!
Overwhelming response guys, thankyou all.

I was unintentionally being a bit vague and unhelpful in the first post.
When I refer to "BING" I mean not only the partition management but also the IFW/IFD and copy wipe functions. I tend to just group them in my head as the same 'suite'.

I am likely to use BING from the floppy and "Work with Partitions" tools as partiton manager hence part of the thrust of my original question.

Fortunately you all seem to be mind readers!! LOL

I have a couple of other questions;
-I use ERASER v5.7 (also I think one of the best apps around) for deleting files and moving things about. I also do an occassional 'wipe free space' as part of clean ups and was wondering about safety of same wrt snapshots.

@crofftk my current set up is (recent upgrade to) 240gb ide drive in the box and removeable 240g ide drive in an external enclosure connected via USB. (lol remember when 80g was sooo biiig, now not enough)

Ihope (!) this will give me enough room for images, ISR archives and even clones without resorting to more than 4 partitions per HD while using BINGetc from floppy.
unfortunately will probably have to be getting a second Winbox at home soon or set-up small home/work network on little server.
More mountains to climb

@Peter; I see in other threads you have used IFD as part of your armament: good for restores with FDISR?

Am trying not to have too many "redundancy' protocols at home/work but have recognised extreme danger of software & hardware snafus recently.
Fortunately my work box is very streamlined and all important database info can be backed up each day and carried away on USB stick. Much work is done at home and core stuff then taken back to work. Home box has full replica of work installations and personal stuff.

Having spent so much time getting evrything nearly idiot proof, really do not want to have to fdisk and reinstall either at home or work. Now if only Windows did not slowly fall apart. Heh.

Vaguely planning to maintain clean updated XP (and now with FDISR installed having been reading the threads for pulling archives) in one partition in external drive as an option.

All these back-up strategies take some time and trial and unfortunately error.
The essential discipline is to remember to do it.

It is possible that BING etc AND FDISR might be overkill, but have been impressed by strong support for (and from ) leapfrog and so want to give it a try.

Thanks again
LBD

[Peter2150]

Hi Longboard

Yes both IFD and IFW. But I've never actually done a restore with either. It's a risk issue. Since my machines are also critical to my business, I haven't wanted to restore, since the restore is a destructive test. If the restore failed I've wiped my drive. Beautify of FDISR archives as an image backup is I can test the archive, by copying it to a new snapshot and making sure I can boot to it. Non destructive test.

So what I've done is image my disk with FDISR installed but no snapshots to keep image size down. Imaged with IFD,Acronis and Ghost 2003. They all verify and I can retrieve files from them so hopefully one of them is good. I will probably only image once a quarter or less, since I keep the archives refreshed and test them frequently.

The beautify of this is even if all the archives were to fail on installing on a new disk, recovery would still be easy. All I'd have to do is install windows, my external drive drivers and FDISR. Then recover the archives, and refresh the primary.

Thus FDISR really has become a primary recovery program, that I tested and it has proven totally reliable.

Pete

[crofttk]

Originally Posted by Longboard

...without resorting to more than 4 partitions per HD while using BINGetc from floppy....

Just a teeny-tiny correction: that would be more than 4 primary partitions. You can still use extended partitions with logical drives all you want.

[Longboard]

Thanks again

@Peter: image conscious +++ Heh. Sounds like you are geared for very possible failure.

@crofttk, lol, yes more mind reading:

4 primary partitions. You can still use extended partitions with logical drives all you want.

Exactly. Make the bios and XP work for their keep.

Regards.

[Peter2150]

Originally Posted by Longboard

@Peter: image conscious +++ Heh. Sounds like you are geared for very possible failure.

.

Thats the concept.

[Longboard]

LOL
TYPO!

Not meant to be

very possible failure

no implication that you will xplode !!

Meant to say "every possible failure"
Nonetheless seems appropriate either way.

Lbd.

also;

-I use ERASER v5.7 (also I think one of the best apps around) for deleting files and moving things about. I also do an occassional 'wipe free space' as part of clean ups and was wondering about safety of same wrt snapshots.

Any takers?
Thanks

[wilbertnl]

Originally Posted by Longboard

-I use ERASER v5.7 (also I think one of the best apps around) for deleting files and moving things about. I also do an occassional 'wipe free space' as part of clean ups and was wondering about safety of same wrt snapshots.

The snapshots are basically exact copies of the Windows folders and file structure. Nothing hidden, compressed or tricky.

So, I don't see why an application like Eraser could do damage.
The files in the snapshots are protected by folder permissions, I notice that my Anti-Virus is reading the files. I suggest that you test first that Eraser doesn't erase anything in the snapshots when you use a pattern like '*.dll in all folders from c:\'.

[Peter2150]

Hi All

I chuckled but assumed "every"

I don't use eraser, but I use a secure delete in cryptosuite. No issues with FDISR.

Pete

[Longboard]

@crofftk

When you uninstall, the FD-ISR uninstall routine will give you the choice of just removing the program files OR the program files PLUS the snapshots, schedules, etc. Opting to remove ONLY the program, you'll see that the $ISR folder structure containing your snapshots is still intact and contains your snapshots. Just remember that your primary snapshot is not preserved becasue that's what you'll be operating in from there on out.

I may not be clear on this but in event of uninstalling FD-ISR AND snapshots, you say I would be back in the (what was the) primary snapshot? Yes?

What if by mistake or by intention I uninstalled from (when In) a secondary snapshot (or say snapshot 3 or 4.)
?not even sure if that's possible, but where would I end up?

Thanks.
...brain hurting again...LOL

[Acadia]

Longboard, whatever Snapshot that you are in when you uninstall FD, that Snapshot is now your one and only c:drive. I'm fairly certain that you can uninstall FD while in any Snapshot; all Snapshots carry equal weight with this program. Todd, or Peter, or someone else can correct me if I am wrong.

Acadia

[Peter2150]

Originally Posted by Acadia

Longboard, whatever Snapshot that you are in when you uninstall FD, that Snapshot is now your one and only c:drive. I'm fairly certain that you can uninstall FD while in any Snapshot; all Snapshots carry equal weight with this program. Todd, or Peter, or someone else can correct me if I am wrong.

Acadia

Now you are testing my memory, but I believe that is correct. That is why I treat my Primary snapshot as my c: and all others as something just a little different. You don't have to do this, but it just helps me from knowing what I am doing, and making a big oops.

Pete

[Longboard]

OK thankyou

[crofttk]

Originally Posted by crofttk

...Just remember that your primary snapshot is not preserved becasue that's what you'll be operating in from there on out....

When I look back on that statement, it really looks screwy and misleading. I guess it made sense to me in the context. I should have just said that your primary IS preserved just by virtue of the fact that it is the "snapshot" you're operating in, i.e., even if you opt ro remove snapshots, the one you're operating in certainly won't be removed.

Anyways, LBD, it looks like Acadia and Peter2150 covered you well on that question.

I can't say with 100% certainty myself but I believe I HAVE uninstalled while in a snapshot other than the Primary and it turned out OK. However, I probably had no choice and, just to be on the safe side, I probably wouldn't have, given the choice.

[Acadia]

If you prefer another Snapshot over the Primary, simply update the Primary using that other Snapshot so they are now both identical, then boot over the Primary and uninstall while you are in the Primary.

Acadia

[crofttk]

What Acadia said is what I NORMALLY would do, of course. I guess I could have been more helpful by pointing that out.