Five ways manufacturers make devices hard to repair

[nosirrah]

EUROCOM Neptune 2.0

This was easy to work on. 1 panel and you have access to the ram (all 4 slots), all the HDD bays, both mini PCIe ports, optical bay and even the CMOS battery.

I upgraded the wireless, upgraded to ram to 16 gigs, installed 2 SATA 600 SSDs and 1 SATA 300 mSATA SSD in just a few minutes.

Keep in mind that this a beast of a laptop and quite huge and heavy, not typical at all but an absolute breeze to work on.

[nosirrah]

Bahh wrong laptop, it was the Acer Aspire AS7750G-9411, also a bit of a tank though.

[roger_m]

Originally Posted by Bill_Bright

I ask you provide a link to just one notebook (one exception) that was designed to make it easy for "normal" users to open up and do maintenance.

I've already provided two links earlier in this discussion - for the Compal HEL80, and ASUS F3SV.

[Bill_Bright]

I've already provided two links earlier in this discussion - for the Compal HEL80, and ASUS F3SV.

Well you had me excited for a second, until I downloaded the manuals and discovered neither of those notebooks have the access you claim.

Instead, like every other notebook I have seen (and that is several hundred over the years) they only have access covers over the CPU, RAM, and battery packs.

Those notebooks, do NOT have a "normal user" removable bottom or access/service panel the can be removed to expose the whole interior for easy maintenance.

ASUS F3Sv Manual


And as can easily be seen in this HEL80 Disassembly Guide, on page 5-2 there is no easy user access to the full bottom/interior with this notebook either.

So I am not sure if there is a simple misunderstanding going on here, or obfuscation, but nevertheless, these two examples just illustrate my point. Notebooks do not cater to self maintainers. Notebooks do NOT provide easy access for cleaning. And clearly, the vast majority (all?) do not provide access to the entire interior to replace parts (other than RAM and the CPU).

[TheWindBringeth]

Originally Posted by Bill_Bright

Those notebooks, do NOT have a "normal user" removable bottom or access/service panel the can be removed to expose the whole interior for easy maintenance.

I'm not sure what is meant by "normal user" and whether that is the appropriate standard by which things should be measured, but ironically that MacBook Pro 15" appears to provide easy, initial access if you have the pentalobe drivers. From the look of Step #5, 10 screws and your in...

http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBo...eardown/9462/1

[Bill_Bright]

A "normal user" is not one who routinely uses tools to open up electronics for maintenance (other than to change batteries).

A normal user is likely to have a couple Phillips and flat-tipped screwdrivers but not Torx, pentalobe, Robertson, hex or other obscure types.

The fact of the matter is, a "normal user" simply wants to press the power button and have everything work. In most cases, if it does not work then about the only thing they know to do then is make sure it is plugged in. That is, IN NO WAY, a criticism of "normal users". It is just normal users see their computers as just another communications "appliance" in the house, and like the phone and TV, they just expect them to work.

Normal users are like normal car owners. The vast majority don't change their own oil/filter, for example. Or even know what their tire pressure should be.

[TheWindBringeth]

Then perhaps that is why there has been some disagreement or confusion regarding ease of access. The obscure screws (I definitely wouldn't include torx or hex in there, probably not even the robertson, but whatever) even a hobbyist could relate to. The mentality you describe, however, seems consistent with someone who wouldn't even want to attempt a repair if/where it is extremely easy to do so. Implied, particularly through the "don't even know what their tire pressure should be", is an ability so limited that I don't think they need be or should be considered when it comes to discussions about repairability.

[Bill_Bright]

Then perhaps that is why there has been some disagreement or confusion regarding ease of access.

I am sure it is. You have to remember, people who frequent these forums are NOT normal users.

Perhaps "normal" suggests if you are not normal, you are abnormal. I don't mean that. I mean the vast majority of computer (PC or Notebook) users have no interest or desire to do any maintenance on their computers.

We have to remember there are almost (or more - depending on who you talk to) 1 Billion Windows computers out there. What we see here in the trenches is but a drop in the bucket - and not "normal".

If you hang out at a crowded Harley bar, there's a good chance all the regulars there know something about riding motorcycles in general, and Harley's in particular. Those who have had a couple Harley's and rode for years are likely to believe everyone automatically knows what a panhead or softail is - but a non-rider or motorcycle newbie (the "normal" guy) would likely be lost. A car mechanic, who works around other mechanics, seeing broken down cars all day might think the world is full of broken down cars - or that everyone knows how to change a filter. Yet we all know that most vehicle drivers are not motorcycle riders, and we know that most cars run reliably most of the time. And we know that changing the oil and filter are basic tasks any wannabe backyard mechanic knows how to do. But most people have someone else do it.

even a hobbyist...

Again, a hobbyist is not a "normal user". A hobbyist would surely have some expertise in the field - and could be a recognized expert with no formal training - I am just saying, while IT hardware services, support and maintenance are HUGE industries involving millions of us who are also users, together we are but a tiny, tiny corner of the whole IT universe, consisting of all the other users of IT products and services.

The obscure screws (I definitely wouldn't include torx or hex in there, probably not even the robertson, but whatever)

That suggests the vast majority of homes in the world with computers users have in their toolboxes and kitchen junk drawers "sets" of torx, hex and Robertson drivers. I would find that hard to believe. In fact, "I didn't have the right tools" is something I hear a lot when clients bring notebooks in to be looked at. However, [I think] much of that is fear and uncertainty that they might break something (because they can always go buy the right tools). And frankly, for many notebooks, I don't blame them. And I have the tools and know how to use them. Sometimes it takes 4 hands and a strategically placed tongue to snap those cases back together again without pinching a wire or stressing something else.

The mentality you describe, however, seems consistent with someone who wouldn't even want to attempt a repair if/where it is extremely easy to do so.

We are not talking about changing out a light bulb. We are talking about digging around inside electronics that cost $100s to several $1000s. Even checking the tire pressure requires a special tool! And I bet most people don't own (or have no clue where it is) a gauge, let alone keep one in their car - yet everyone should.

Implied, particularly through the "don't even know what their tire pressure should be", is an ability so limited that I don't think they need be or should be considered when it comes to discussions about repairability.

No! We are not talking about "limited abilities" of the user. We are talking about the lack of tools, training/experience, know-how and/or desire. And perhaps desire most of all. Most people (not just computer users) have no desire to dig around inside their computer. And "normal" people should NOT be digging around inside today's high density electronics anyway - unless they have a good understanding of electronics safety including - especially ESD. Also, not a "normal user" topic.

I think you are looking at everyone as if they are computer enthusiasts, at least at some level. As someone in the repair biz, I can tell you that is not true. Most computer user wish their computers were as simple and reliable as their toaster.

And finally, I wish it were different. It is often easier to take the backs off big screen TVs than it is to open notebooks. As a technician, I think notebook makers are doing a lousy job when considering "after-sales" support.

But at the same time, users are demanding zero maintenance; slimmer, lighter, longer lasting; and lower costs. That pretty much takes the enthusiast and hobbyist out of the picture altogether.

[roger_m]

Originally Posted by Bill_Bright

Instead, like every other notebook I have seen (and that is several hundred over the years) they only have access covers over the CPU, RAM, and battery packs.

Those notebooks, do NOT have a "normal user" removable bottom or access/service panel the can be removed to expose the whole interior for easy maintenance.

The entire bottom is not removable, however things like the CPU, wireless card and graphics chip are easily accessible. On the ASUS Z81K the entire bottom is removable.

[Bill_Bright]

The entire bottom is not removable, however things like the CPU, wireless card and graphics chip are easily accessible

Exactly. And that "limited" access is the problem.

On the ASUS Z81K the entire bottom is removable.

Okay! Finally, there's one notebook where the whole bottom can be removed. Too bad that notebook is nearly 7 years old and does not represent current trends.

And of course, exceptions don't make the rule.

[Bill_Bright]

An after thought:

and graphics chip are easily accessible

They may be accessible for cleaning, but not likely for upgrading as most are not socketed (again, for costs, space, and ruggedness).

I remember when "portable" PCs came out. They were called "lugables" because they literally were stuffed in small "luggage" type cases. And they were heavy. Really heavy. But you could slide out all the guts with little effort for cleaning and upgrades - though upgrade options were few, if any - and very expensive.

[Dark Shadow]

Originally Posted by TheWindBringeth

Then perhaps that is why there has been some disagreement or confusion regarding ease of access. The obscure screws (I definitely wouldn't include torx or hex in there, probably not even the robertson, but whatever) even a hobbyist could relate to. The mentality you describe, however, seems consistent with someone who wouldn't even want to attempt a repair if/where it is extremely easy to do so. Implied, particularly through the "don't even know what their tire pressure should be", is an ability so limited that I don't think they need be or should be considered when it comes to discussions about repairability.

Like Tri-wing screw driver to remove macbook internal battery.If we had every tool for very job,we would need a warehouse for storage. believe me I have lots of tools for auto repair and there is always a new tool needed.

[mattbiernat]

@Bill, if you want advanced user access then thinkpads are quite easy. There is usually 5-6 screws and you can have entire motherboard exposed. Again saying that desktops have easier access may be correct in general but it is not absolute rule. Thinkpads have been known for being easy to fix, you should check them out.
As for normal user access (by normal I mean acess to RAM and HDD) then thinkpads by far are more accessible than desktops. 2 screws in my Thinkpad x120e, 1 screw to change HDD in my thinkpad T23.
Seems like you are arguing that "normal user" means being able to change capacitor on the motherboard or change the cpu. No, most people wouldn't be able to do it without specialized equipment so you can't call it normal user task.

[Bill_Bright]

@Bill, if you want advanced user access then thinkpads are quite easy.

I am very familiar with Thinkpads but "advanced users" are not the issue.

And changing a capacitor is much more advanced than swapping CPUs. You don't need a soldering iron and solder skills to change a CPU - at least not a socketed CPU. Soldering caps should be left to a qualified technician. Swapping CPUs is something an experienced user can do, if socketed.

If the CPU is surface mounted, it is not likely even a skilled technician could swap it out without destroying the old, or the new CPU (or motherboard) with too much heat, even with a steady hand and a fine point low-wattage pencil iron.

My point is, a "normal" use should not have to remove 5 or 6 screws to gain access for cleaning. Two tooless fasteners, maybe.

And the problem, I assure you, is only going to get worse as the push for "passive" (no fan) cooling will mean these devices will not be drawing in, and packing in layers of heat trapping dust. That's good, but it also means the makers can then claim there are, "no user-serviceable parts inside".

Once that happens, then notebook interiors will be as accessible as the interiors of your iPad or iPhone is now.

[Pedro]

IMO, screws do not make it non-friendly.

They should be more robust than fasteners (and i'm not sure what kind you are referring to, as i have not seen them in a laptop).

No one i know has a problem with the screws. I almost agree with you on everything else - soldered components, undocumented and complicated procedures, etc.

[Bill_Bright]

Of course, the vast majority of people can remove a few screws. That is not my point.

On a PC, almost all cases come with easy to remove thumb screws to remove the entire side panel, exposing the entire interior - everything but the backside of the motherboard. But even that can be removed with just a little care - and good lighting.

So here's the point - once inside the PC case, you can EASILY replace or add a graphics card, swap or add RAM, change the cooler, add or change case fans, a card reader, tuner card and more. And more importantly you can clean out every speck of heat trapping dust.

Even after removing 5 or 6 screws on a notebook, you still don't have full access to all the interior. There will still be nooks and crannies you cannot access for thorough cleaning, unless you totally disassemble the notebook. And that is not, in any way, user-friendly, let alone "technician-friendly".

I used to maintain police, fire, and military command and control portable radios. Very compact, highly complex. Yet they were designed to be very technician-friendly - a very good thing. And while they usually took a special tool to open, with that tool, it was simple to quickly crack it wide open for any sort of repair or thorough cleaning - minimizing downtimes - also a very good thing.

Notebooks are NOT designed to be user-maintenance, or technician friendly. Does that mean someone with a screwdriver can't gain access? Of course not. And on portable devices (subject to knocks and bumps) you need something as secure as screws so they don't come loose. But it should mean if you have to go through that process you should gain full access to the interior for whatever maintenance you need to do. But with most notebooks today, you don't.

Are there exceptions? I am sure. But those will not be marketed as the thinnest, lightest, longest lasting notebook either.

[Pedro]

Like i said, i agree with you on those points. Just go past the screws, as they are, i believe, a reasonable compromise for a laptop.

A desktop stays still, a laptop does not, so it needs to be firmly closed.

We agree with the fact that, when one opens the laptop for maintenance, the whole thing is cryptic, or when it isn't, one can see there's no easy way to disassemble it without breaking parts, not to mention that many parts usually unmountable on a desktop is soldered on a laptop.

Personally, i would gladly pay a bit more for a good repair manual, and go for a laptop a little bigger if that means i can fix it.
I don't even see it as necessarily bigger, or much bigger. Just better designed, and documented.