Can anyone please explain to me why online privacy matters?

Discussion in 'privacy general' started by DesuMaiden, Aug 29, 2015.

  1. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Posts:
    9,252
    Various governments and other adversaries have various capabilities. So what's appropriate to protect privacy and security depends on which adversaries matter. And even the Five Eyes have limitations. Yes, they can compromise hardware in transit with firmware backdoors, radio bugs, keyloggers, etc. But they need to know whose hardware to compromise. So one can just buy used hardware anonymously. And yes, they have exploits for all platforms. But again, that's mostly targeted. And it's possible to isolate high-risk network links. I agree that there's no way to know for sure how secure one actually is. But that's no reason to just do nothing.
     
  2. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Posts:
    8,013
    I think it's actually a pretty good reason to just do nothing, unless of course you're doing criminal things and have much to hide. The truth is, trying to hide from them or protect yourself against their technological advantage is like an ant attempting to fight a guy equipped with a suitcase nuke. Guess who's always going to lose?
     
  3. Yes I know it's happening now but I will resist until I die. There are still good people working for privacy in this world. I hope that never ends.

    To justify surveillance in order to catch terrorists is crap. Not one terrorist has been caught using mass surveillance. Not one. It's rotten to the core.

    I'm thinking that cave is a good idea but then a drone will probably kill me with a missile thinking I'm a terrorist.
     
  4. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Posts:
    8,013
    Haha... :)
     
  5. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Posts:
    9,252
    Well, just exactly what does "criminal" mean? Was George Washington a criminal?

    Also, if there ever was a global nuclear war, ants would be one of the big winners. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomass_(ecology)
     
  6. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Posts:
    8,013
    Haha.. Good points... :)
     
  7. Amanda

    Amanda Registered Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Posts:
    2,115
    Location:
    Brasil
    I don't think trying to have privacy is a bad thing. I have things I want to keep to myself, so what? I don't want Windows, I don't want Microsoft having the ability to hear my mic and see through my webcam, and I also don't use smartphones for the same reason: I must have my space, have my private stuff. And I REALLY don't mind if some people are OK with throwing data out in the open, because this is really their lifestyle, but once one assumes that this should be a "norm" or that "if you don't do anything wrong you don't have to hide" or that "we already lost", we gotta have a more in-depth debate about this.

    First, we don't lose anything. For those of us who care about privacy and work to keep it alive: we're always winning. It takes work, but it's worth it. And if the majority of people encrypted their communications we'd all win because no agency in the world can crack that much data.

    If there's one thing I learned about the Snowden documents is that encryption works, and the NSA doesn't have a magical power to easily break into your hardened Linux or to break encryption standards.

    Second. This poorly made argument that "I have nothing to hide so I dont mind" really makes me wonder what is wrong with this generation of people. Have we gotten dumber? Are we really trading convenience over privacy? Me, for instance, have nothing to hide; nevertheless, I don't want some average Joe planting mics and cameras all over my house, so why open an exception to government agencies?

    Third. I think we, as a species, are facing a very important point in our evolution. I have a gut-feeling that if most people allow agencies and corporations to do anything with their privacy then we're close to letting them do anything to us (being OK with mental control is a crazy idea that comes to mind). We have become too confortable with how governments work, with corruption, and if we don't fight back for our rights then soon it could be illegal to encrypt anything at all, because we're going to be marked as "terrorists" (terrorist, for a government, could mean anything, specially since we'd be fighting THEM for our rights).

    And again, if one has a fetish about girls dripped in "yellow shower" with a horse mask on, let them have these kind of things in secret hehehehe.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2015
  8. driekus

    driekus Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2014
    Posts:
    489
    I have nothing to hide, from the people I trust.
    It is not my quote but I think it really explains my feelings.

    The biggest concern is where the information ends up. Speculation is that many recent hacks have involved national entities. It concerns me that governments have access to this type of information.
     
  9. Kerodo

    Kerodo Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Posts:
    8,013
    I think this is a valid concern, and one thing that gives me a little pause regarding Windows 10. One may trust MS in this instance (or not), but who's to say that they won't be hacked next year and all the data and tracking they've done stolen and ending up somewhere else where it could be abused in some way. This really applies not only to MS but to every organization and government entity that collects your data.
     
  10. UnknownK

    UnknownK Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2012
    Posts:
    160
    Location:
    Unknown
    Me too.
     
  11. deBoetie

    deBoetie Registered Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2013
    Posts:
    1,832
    Location:
    UK
    Any cop will tell you that, for example if you drive, there is always some regulation you've violated. So the notion of being blameless and having nothing to hide is dubious, even if restricted to legalities (let alone expression of views).

    But presuming you have nothing to hide (in any respect), you are still at risk from false positives - these inevitably arise from mass surveillance because the data mining cannot possibly find the needle in the haystack, certainly not without throwing up a lot of stalks. The consequence to blameless individuals can be severe (ending up on some no-fly list, not getting certain classes of job, being a perpetual suspect, always pulled over etc). And there is often no way of knowing, and often no effective redress let alone compensation.

    Anyone who's worked with databases knows the problems of rubbish data. The mass surveillance databases are 99.999%+ rubbish, and the rest doesn't lead to actionable intelligence.

    @Kerodo @driekus - exactly. The X-eyes seem to regard the data as a saleable commodity to be traded e.g. as between Germany and NSA. So they are keen to justify their existence by spreading the data as far as they can, with carelessness (and some would say treason) associated with how they do this. And then you have software functionality which is absolutely prime target for hackers and malware, because the functionality and data is already there. Evil Cortana anyone?
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
  12. J_L

    J_L Registered Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2009
    Posts:
    8,738
    Honestly, I do not expect anything I post online to be private. Plus, I expect all accounts I own to be under government surveillance, except maybe the really anonymous/private ones. As for browsing, well you can hide in the crowd, but Tor et al is necessary for true privacy.

    Therefore I consider online privacy to be a "risk control" of sorts. I don't limit myself to keeping everything a secret, nor do I blabber like a social maniac. I take full advantage of Google et al collecting information from me that I already consider public or at least "corporation/government-aware" for cost saving and other benefits. I also take full advantage of Tor, encryption, and whatnot when I truly do not want to be monitored.

    It was quite the journey going from a pretty much anonymous guy to a blogging socialite of sorts... What I learned is that hiding everything will be a sacrifice you don't necessarily have to take, and people are usually not out to get you when sharing identities. On the other hand, trying to hide your identity all the time will make you stick out like a sore thumb, unless you have some means of blending with the crowd.
     
  13. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Posts:
    9,252
    Well, then I suppose that I'm many places at once on that journey ;)

    Also, most of the time, when I'm hiding my identity, I go out of my way to avoid looking like I'm hiding my identity :) Except when that's the point, as with Mirimir.
     
  14. deBoetie

    deBoetie Registered Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2013
    Posts:
    1,832
    Location:
    UK
    One has an unavoidable public persona if you use the internet for any standard transactions like purchasing - along with any separate ones you may choose to construct (along with all its technical and opsec challenges).
    But I'm afraid that I have reached the conclusion that it's unsafe to do anything beyond the strictly "necessary" in the public persona, particularly when it comes to expression of opinions. This is because:
    a) I no longer trust the methods and judgement of the security services - I think false positives are a significant risk;
    b) there are always oddballs on the internet who will get offended by misunderstandings or by the most anodyne expressions of opinion;
    c) employees, colleagues and partners may or may not agree with your foibles expressed so permanently online;
    c) standard criminality.
    In the case of b), c) and d), it is difficult to keep your public exposure non-identifying from anyone with an internet connection - for example, I identified my brother from his internet exposure from a single semi-public site and working outward. It just takes one slip, or someone else posting identifiable collateral to bust you wide open for the baddies and crazies to get you.
     
  15. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Posts:
    9,252
    What deBoetie said :thumb:

    I learned that long ago on Usenet :eek:
     
  16. Palancar

    Palancar Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2011
    Posts:
    2,402
    I have had to "lose" a few persona's over the years. Can you ever really lose one? Do your best and mostly never return to check things out. The "bad guys" always return to the scene of the crime and get nabbed. While I am not talking about a crime, the principle still applies well!
     
  17. Bob D

    Bob D Registered Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Posts:
    1,234
    Location:
    Mass., USA
    Joseph Goebbels: "You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide".
    Data collection is ubiquitous. Every time you use your "rewards card" at the supermarket to save money on your Friskies cat food & Mac & Cheese purchases, they are harvesting your information.
    Every time you fly, or drive through a toll booth using your transponder, there are records.
    It's all a matter of degrees. I fly out of necessity, use my rewards card for cost savings, use my transponder for convenience and time saving.
    I prefer minimal privacy risk to living in the Third World (or cave).
     
  18. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Posts:
    9,252
    Health insurance firms would be interested :eek:
     
  19. MisterB

    MisterB Registered Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2013
    Posts:
    1,267
    Location:
    Southern Rocky Mountains USA
    One can take advantage of a public persona on the internet and exploit it. That is what some of my friends who aren't really concerned about privacy do. It can generate connections and income if done well. While I don't follow that path, I do see it is better to actively create a public persona than passively be assigned one by tracking and surveillance technologies.
     
  20. deBoetie

    deBoetie Registered Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2013
    Posts:
    1,832
    Location:
    UK
    Agree, there are many social goods (and maybe some income) that can flow from a public persona - but also increased risks, as the celebs find! It's also what makes the unprincipled surveillance and corporate mining so damaging. I think the important thing is to be clear (and restricted) about your purpose, and not leave hostages to fortune. At least, I think it's necessary to make it hard to associate your intimate social group from a public reputational persona, and this is difficult to achieve because it requires cooperation from your interlocuters.
     
  21. mirimir

    mirimir Registered Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Posts:
    9,252
    Well, Mirimir has a public persona :) And also, vis own pseudonyms.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.