Rollback RX v10.x (Home & Professional)

My apologies, I am wrong sometimes, I guess this is one of them.

manolito, to back up your claim of bias or grudge holding could you please provide examples of this. By that I mean examples where complaints about HDSs marketing is correct and forum members have indicated that they are not.

 

Thanks guys.

 

Hi Sam.

Seems to me that HorizonDatasys policy will never change... (=deny any and all problems caused by the software)

Question: RollBackRX works with Trim?
Answer: No, it does not... and this is the reason that you block the trim commands (=redirected to nowhere).

Question: Trim works with RollBackRX?
Answer: No, it does not... because all trim commands are blocked (redirected to nowhere).

Question: RollbackRX works with trim supported ssds and windows OSes?
Answer: Yes it does... because RollbackRX will intercept and block (=redirect to nowhere) any and all trim commands; but the ssd performance will degrade over time and it's lifespan will be shortened...

Panagiotis

 

http://community.horizondatasys.com/forum/rollback-rx/3265-rollback-rx-and-ssd-trim

..is ridiculous. Trim cannot release (from RBRX) any unused sectors because that would fundamentally alter the snapshot, or children snapshots.

Don't know how many times I have to tell you guys that.

 

TRIM is supported by RBRX. In this case "supported" means TRIM commands are intercepted and redirected to null. And that's all you need to know. "Knowing more" opens the door for more fudging and word twisting.

Their marketing really pushes the meaning of "support" to the point of language abuse. This is the equivalent of saying a car supports switching the headlights on and off, but in order to do so you must open the hood and unscrew the wire terminals that supply current to those headlights.

 

I for one am looking forward to seeing if there is actually a discussion between Froggie and Sam that clarifies what is being stated. In my opinion its a bit early to definitively say that either is right or wrong.

Sam, while you are here, could you please comment on Froggies "Rollback RX™ - The “unOfishul” FAQ" (link provided below). Its been sitting since April 6 with no comment other than for Kurtis saying that you folks would have to look at it before commenting (well actually Kurtis had more to say at times but these comments did not advance the discussion). Has anything been done regarding this list of problems for Rx and Rxs marketing?

https://www.wilderssecurity.com/threads/rollback-rx-the-unofishul-faq.374977/

 

Looks like Froggie is back in the country, I'm curious about his reply to HDS' new spin on trim functionality under Rollback RX.

To me it looks a lot like remarkable rhethorics to turn a flaw into a feature...


Cheers
manolito

 

Hi Sam! Just to let you know, I have responded to your recent post on the HDS forum HERE and that will probably be my last post at HDS concerning this issue. There appears to be no way that HDS and myself can reach a common language medium as far as this issue is concerned... I don't know why but I guess we just agree to disagree.

The users on this forum are much more technical than both the users on the HDS Forums and yourself and they are fully capable of making the same determinations that I have made.... but, the poor dead horse has been beaten enough

Let me welcome you to the Forum... and let me warn you that this group is definitely a technical notch above most of the users that you have dealt with in the past, please be prepared (use Andrew and James as much as you require )

 

Thanks Froggie, you did your best and thats all anyone can expect,,,,, I wonder if Sam will have anything to say at this point.

 

BG, a true SpinMeister will ALWAYS have something to say , but if his presence in these Forums continues, I'm sure it'll be a bit more refreshing than previous attempts by HDS to mingle here.

 

Thanks Froggie, noone could have said it any better...

Obviously HDS concedes that trim is not working under Rollback, but they try to convince their users that this is actually a good thing. I would be very curious what SSD manufacturers have to say on this topic. Could it even happen that using an SSD together with Rollback will void my guarantee?

Cheers
manolito

 

Well... I've never seen anything concerning non-TRIM invalidating the warranty of a SSD, but clearly they've documented the downside to the SSD by not using TRIM. Possibly, in the future, more intelligent Garbage Collection (it's pretty intelligent now) may mitigate that downside somewhat.

Users who have stated... "using Rollback on my SSD has had little impact to date" will have to learn the hard way. With unlimited bucks they can always replace that storage device as often as needed, but way before it really needs to be replaced.

 

Just thinking,,,,,,,

HDS says Rx works with TRIM,,,,,and they are correct,,,,,,Rx does work with TRIM. Its just that TRIM does not work with Rx.
In other words Rx works with TRIM but does not support it.

It will be interesting to see how folks over on the HDS Rx Forum respond to your post. At least you have informed them of the situation and they will have to decide what to do about it. I would however ask you to post your full reply in this thread so that folks have a way to follow the full discussion without having to jump back and forth between forums.

 

BG has asked for my final post in the HDS Forum thread concerning SSDs and Rollback TRIM support to be posted here for those who do not travel regularly in the HDS neighborhood. Here 't is...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
​

I left Sam's test above so readers could "read" it very carefully. In his final comment you'll see exactly what has been said for over 4-yrs now... as long as Rollback RX is active on your system protecting an SSD, no snapshot data ever created during its lifetime has ever been or will ever be TRIMmed.

The above statement is probably one of the greatest pieces of journalistic SPIN I've ever read To tell us readers that this great reason for never TRIMming data is to allow you to recover your data following the uninstallation of Rollback (either due to system disaster, accidental uninstall to the wrong snapshot or maybe some other MBR-related problem) is probably a good thing if any of those horrible things happen to you... but it is a terrible thing as far as SSD data management is concerned and fully confirms the fact that the OS TRIM command is completely non-functional while Rollback RX is installed. This is the only thing that has been claimed by knowledgeable users since 2011... TRIM does not work on a Rollback-enabled system.

In conclusion, Sam says...

To be perfectly honest, I have no idea what Sam is saying in his conclusion (most likely part of that "spin" thing ). Clearly, based on his own words from his post above, TRIM is NOT WORKING until Rollback is uninstalled, and even then there is a problem as has been mentioned in one of my previous posts.

Sam, you and the rest of HDS are very welcome for my intense interest in this subject, but clearly based on your above post, which I believe represents HDS' current position, you're company is not ready to admit to its users that the SSD TRIM function is non-functional while running under Rollback RX. I cannot fathom the reasons for this (other than maybe embarrassment) and will not try to. I just hope your readers/users clearly understand your statements above and see how Rollback is preventing the proper TRIMming of their protected SSDs.

The statement above means exactly what it says... the "for a time" is defined as the entire period Rollback is installed on your system. To clarify Sam's mention of the "Optimizing" function... no "Optimizing" function attempted with Rollback installed will reset any sectors on your system. And if you uninstall Rollback to your CURRENT SNAPSHOT, that same "Optimizing" function will also be non-functional due to the flawed Rollback driver still being active on your system at that time. A system reBOOT is REQUIRED (which will eliminate that stale driver) before the standard Win8 Optimizing function will once again be functional.

In my conclusion, I really don't have much more to say. I've worked very closely with HDS SENIOR TECHNICAL SUPPPORT demonstrating "our" 4-yr old claim of non-TRIM compatibility but after almost months of "re-examining" the problem, The HDS (via Sam above) position is still that some sort of good thing is really happening with Rollback and SSD TRIM... clearly, based on Sam's response above, it is not. As readers/users, all you can do is examine responses from both HDS and myself and make your own conclusions.

Thank all of you for taking time to read these threads concerning Rollback, SSDs and TRIM... I hope it has been enlightening and that you fully understand what has been written about this issue. Since my calling has never been a SpinMeister by design, I will no longer be responding to this Rollback/SSD/TRIM issue in these forums. If anyone has a specific technical question concerning this issue, please feel free to use the Private Messages function of this forum to do so.

Thanks for listening!

 

Thank you Mr Frog

 

How important is this really? Most users don't even know what trim is. And HDS, like many corporations will win out by simply waiting for this "debacle" to go away.

 

I guess its not important if you do not use SSDs but its important because its symptomatic of HDSs attitude.

 

an old sage (me) said " if someone is deaf about what you say to him, he will also be blind because he will not see you anymore"

meditate...meditate...

 

But, if those you are speaking to are not the ones others think you are speaking to,,,,,,then your wisdom is misplaced.

It would be nice if HDS listened and replied in a comprehensive manner,,,,,that is, if they think Froggie is wrong then in clear detail explain why,,,,,but I do not really think anyone expects this,,,,,,,so its not HDS that is being spoken to but rather those who are considering (or are using) their products. These are the people who are ultimately being spoken to and as far as I know, most of them, are neither blind nor deaf (nor dumb)(ignorant maybe but then thats why these Rx threads have been created, to enlighten them).

more meditate...meditate...

Still, Sam has an opportunity to respond so its still an open question as to if the discussion (if you want to call it that) is over. The ball is clearly in HDSs court now,,,,,, will they rally or fold?

 

Well, as far as I'm concerned, it has just gone away. My effort has always been about enlightening users and I don't believe I can do anymore in that area...

 

Well it sure looks as if Sam is not going to make an appearance. I wonder why he bothered to post at all. Would have been better for Kurtis to simply disappear from the forum and that would have been the end of it.

Disappointing but not really surprising.

 

Many members (like myself) may be biased if that is what you want to call it. It is the conclusion we have come to based on the very long history of serious problems RRX has caused users and HTS either not responding to the issues, covering issues up, or clearly misleading users. I speak through experience not ignorance.

 

HDS, via Sam Smith, has responded in their Forum to the SSD Lack of TRIM issue. To try and paraphrase Sam... he has stated that they have come to an agreement to end the discussion at this point. His original writeup on the matter was done with the full cognizance and cooperation of their Senior Tech Support and Rollback's Lead Developer and as a result, his statement is the Technical Team's FINAL OFFICIAL RESPONSE on the matter.

That's it, I guess.

Roillback/SSD users... be warned.

 

Thank you Mr. Frog for your contribution to enlightening users regarding SSD+Rollback.

 

You're welcome... but there were many before me and there will be many after me.