Are you happy with professional AV Testing?

[I_lack_commonsense]

Usually the better AV's remain on top, but there are still some noticable inconsistencies with recent test results. I imagine that some of it has to do with the test samples that they each choose. For example... I understand many did not like the testing method and samples used in the AV-test.org Test. But after reading the NOD32 thread Andreas explained why he included such samples (justified or not) and in some ways it made sense. But were those samples alone a threat... NO. And the result was many concerned NOD32 users, when they shouldn't have been. Just like I'm sure many people will be concerned when they see FAIL next to KAV and DrWeb in the latest VB test (without even knowing why they failed). Any thoughts or ideas on this area? What would you like to see done (if anything) ?

I guess the only thing that you can count on is that all tests are flawed. And that AV test results ALONE do not accurately measure how good an AV is. :)

[Tinribs]

To be bluntly honest, sometimes I wish i had never become interested in Security (and specifically Virii)

In 'the old days' I ran Norton av, I sometimes got an alert which it dealt with, I surfed,emailed,listened to music (legally ;) ) and played games and was happy.
Then it went pair shaped.
I became interested in security (job related) and the fun dissapeared.
It became an endless troll of sites looking and reading for any info that might point to the 'perfect' software to protect me, many months later I realised it doesn't exsist.
I have since 'regained my mojo' and its fun again, but I still understand that reading test after test and scrolling through endless figures and pie charts can bring you down.

Of course security is important ,not only for yourself, but for others too, but it isnt the 'be all and end all' dont forget that if its a reputable product and you are careful and up to date with recent threats then enjoy what computers can do and enjoy the 'net'
Just dont let it take over your life



:)
Kev (the preacher :-X )


edit, sorry 'I_Lack' it doesnt really answer your queries, apologies for twisting your topic.

[Paul Wilders]

-{ Quote: " quoting: I_lack_commonsense link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=0#msg64721 date=1054838846]...Any thoughts or ideas on this area? What would you like to see done (if anything) ?" }-

Well, on ocassion, standards have been set: have a look at the criteria as formulated by VirusBulletin - those are very clear. At the same time, AV developers are free to submit their software to these tests/criteria - so they are perfectly aware what they are up to.

-{ Quote: "I guess the only thing that you can count on is that all tests are flawed. And that AV test results ALONE do not accurately measure how good an AV is. :)
" }-

In regard to ITW viruses I disagree; VB does a very good job here, undisputed by contenders. The ICSA AV Consortium (http://www.icsalabs.com/html/communities/antivirus/avpdmembers.shtml) has been established for good reasons as well - and all major players are involved.

That said: as soon as test does enter a twiglight zone - not only testing for example ITW viruses, but trojans, backdoors etc as well, problems are bound to arise. For that reason I personally do prefer "clean" tests: VB is an example. Sortalike tests aiming at solely trojans/backdoors would stop concerns from AV and AT users as well.

regards.

paul

[Blackcat]

I agree with Preacher Tinribs!!!

Most of the 'top' AV programs are now detecting most of the ITW viruses, so most will provide good protection from viruses. Choose one of the programs which is consistently near the top of the detection charts from a VARIETY of DIFFERENT test sites and you should be okay.

Unless you are in computer security and/or the AntiVirus field the reliability of the different test sites cannot be accurately judged. Even then, the so called experts nearly always disagree.

Look at a variety of sources, including here at wilders, and friends recommendations then YOU decide what is best for your system and your needs.

If you only play games on the computer and you occasionally e-mail but hold no important information on your box, a layered defence with the 'best' commercial AV/AT/AW programs and software/hardware firewalls may not be one of the holy grails in your life.

As someone else who has progressed from Norton/McAfee to now recommended AV/AT/AW/Firewall and spyware programs, it can be a full-time job keeping up with the latest definitions, program updates and the latest forum news!!!!! As Tinribs stated 'enjoy the net'.

If you keep up with some of the forums, you can quickly tell which programs are reliable. Trial, check system stability BUT enjoy your surfing.

AND image-copy your hard drive regularly just in case ;).

[Douglas]

-{ Quote: "I agree with Preacher Tinribs!!!" }-
But let's still appreciate those who belong to different denominations.
There are people to whom figures and pie charts give great enjoyment. We don't have to enjoy them, but we can be glad that there are folks who do.

Regards,
Douglas

[Tinribs]

Thats true Douglas, but for the average user just after the 'whats the best?' type thread is does nothing but confuse and delude them, I do not mean we should all forget intricate research that is done (I study every one) but merely that we shouldn't get overinvolved if we need not to.



Kev
:)

[Douglas]

-{ Quote: "I study every one" }-
I don't. Can't understand 'em. :)

Regards,
Douglas

[mrbrimi]

I've given up trying to understand them as you have to read the "fine print". I'm sure if you are a "security expert" and take the time to read the methodogies there is some value.

Worse than the tests are the postings that follow in forums such as this. I'm always amazed at the violent reactions that each new test result provides and how rude posters can be to each other over test results.

[I_lack_commonsense]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Forum Admin link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=0#msg64748 date=1054845101]

In regard to ITW viruses I disagree; VB does a very good job here, undisputed by contenders.
" }-

heh Since you DISAGREE with me, I will....


AGREE... with you in that VB's ITW approach is very effective. But in the thread about the June VB test results it was said that KAV failed due to a false positive. And if it did misidentify a false positive as a real virii, couldn't the false positive samples that VB use be more or less considered subjective as well?

[Paul Wilders]

-{ Quote: "...But in the thread about the June VB test results it was said that KAV failed due to a false positive. And if it did misidentify a false positive as a real virii, couldn't the false positive samples that VB use be more or less considered subjective as well?" }-

I don't think so ;) - apart from the fact the test bed used is one and the same for all tested programs.

regards.

paul

[Firefighter]

To I_lack_commonsense from Firefighter!

I'm afraid, that you have missed the point! Every tester can make mistakes in false positivive tests, of course that doesn't apply to VB, because the testbed was the same to all! ;D ;D ;D

But when I showed the results from av-test.org 2 - 2003 false positive test, almost every comment was that those 20 000 clean files included something suspicious or something like that. I tried to explain that it doesn't matter, because the rules were the same to all, but that seems to be only a joke! Of course I forgot that it was only av-test.org test, I'm terrible sorry about that! ;D ;D ;D


"The truth is out there, but it hurts!"

Best Regards,
Firefighter!

[zOK]

I am happy with most tests, I don't like nor trust Virus Bulletin results, or testing.

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: " quoting: zOK link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=0#msg64893 date=1054897635]
I am happy with most tests, I don't like nor trust Virus Bulletin results, or testing.
" }-

Of Course you don't... But then again, VB test is the most professional test out there. Toughest one too….




Technodrome

[zOK]

We each have our own opinion you say VB most professional, I say most unprofessional, You say hardest test, I say joke.

[solarpowered candle]

perhaps it is like carrying all your eggs in one basket trusting in one testing co only

[zOK]

Yes, this is correct, look at all the tests, then you see which product is the best, You will see some programs shine at, cough VB, but do horrible on other tests, these programs, should then just be excluded, from ones search for a good AV.

Chose a program that does well in all tests, not a one time wonder LOL.

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: " quoting: zOK link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=0#msg64899 date=1054901785]
We each have our own opinion you say VB most professional, I say most unprofessional, You say hardest test, I say joke.
" }-

Its the fact. Ask any AV researcher.

I welcome all tests too...



Technodrome

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: " quoting: zOK link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=15#msg64902 date=1054902123]
Chose a program that does well in all tests, not a one time wonder LOL.
" }-

Chose a program that will suite your system best. Without slowdowns or freeze ups.

AntiVirus app should not slow you down. Many antivirus products will protect you well.



Technodrome

[zOK]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=15#msg64903 date=1054902135]
-{ Quote: " quoting: zOK link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=0#msg64899 date=1054901785]
We each have our own opinion you say VB most professional, I say most unprofessional, You say hardest test, I say joke.
" }-

Its the fact. Ask any AV researcher.

I welcome all tests too...



Technodrome
" }-

Hi, I could ask 100 people and get 100 different facts, the facts that count to me are my own tests, combined with tests made available to me. via Internet, I write VB off as hear say, and move on.

One day, they may be able to conduct an honest test, but that day is not today. You have a right to trust them, as I have a right not to.

[zOK]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=15#msg64904 date=1054902395]
-{ Quote: " quoting: zOK link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=15#msg64902 date=1054902123]
Chose a program that does well in all tests, not a one time wonder LOL.
" }-

Chose a program that will suite your system best. Without slowdowns or freeze ups.

AntiVirus app should not slow you down. Many antivirus products will protect you well.



Technodrome
" }-

Agreed!!!!!!!!!

zOK

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: " quoting: zOK link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=15#msg64905 date=1054902485]

Hi, I could ask 100 people and get 100 different facts, the facts that count to me are my own tests, combined with tests made available to me. via Internet, I write VB off as hear say, and move on.
" }-

Don't ask ordinary people. Ask AV researchers.

I do my own tests too...But I don't combined them with any other tests. :)



Technodrome

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: " quoting: zOK link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=15#msg64905 date=1054902485]
You have a right to trust them, as I have a right not to.
" }-

Fair enough! ;)



Technodrome

[Straight Shooter]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=15#msg64904 date=1054902395]
-{ Quote: " quoting: zOK link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=15#msg64902 date=1054902123]
Chose a program that does well in all tests, not a one time wonder LOL.
" }-

Chose a program that will suite your system best. Without slowdowns or freeze ups.

AntiVirus app should not slow you down. Many antivirus products will protect you well.



Technodrome
" }-

Excellent advice. Also, choose a program which has YOUR criteria for quality.. For a lot of people, this may mean unpacker strength..and trojan-zoo detection...

Also, HOW it disenfects...Support... Information available on their websites... update frequency, etc. etc... and yeah, use at least one PROFESSIONAL opinion out there... For many, it's Virus Bulletin...

[edsod]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=15#msg64904 date=1054902395]

Chose a program that will suite your system best. Without slowdowns or freeze ups.

AntiVirus app should not slow you down. Many antivirus products will protect you well.



Technodrome
" }-

The best advice I've heard for antivirus programs.
I speak from my point of view as a simple user...

That is why people are reluctant to try again McAfee
although it is said that the new version isn't problematic.

This is the reason that many people are using AVG,
it is not just ignorance or money for many of them.
(maybe sometimes is ;D ).
Look at this little thread as an exemple
http://forums.techguy.org/t138056/s.html

On Access scanners and Monitors of many
programs like Kaspersky or Bitdefender make them
unusable
(I tried many options except not scanning
at all,only Swedish AVP 3.5 version is about OK).

I experienced no slowdowns at all with
AVG, NOD32, SOLO and AVAST.

(NOD interferes with jv16 but this is a
program that you use sparingly.
I've read that this will be fixed?)

I didn't try DrWeb...

So when we talk about AVs we must look also
at their usability and not only detection of viruses .

[Paul Wilders]

-{ Quote: " quoting: zOK link=board=24;threadid=9945;start=0#msg64899 date=1054901785]
We each have our own opinion you say VB most professional, I say most unprofessional, You say hardest test, I say joke.
" }-

hi "zOk" ;D

Sure, we all are entitled to our own opinion ;). Nevertheless, since all major AV developpers gladly put up their software for VB testing, I'm rather curious as of why you believe their tests are "most unprofessional" - contrary to all those major AV developpers putting their software up for testing ;)

regards.

paul

[TAG97]

-{ Quote: " quoting: zOK -{ Quote: "" }-





Hi, I could ask 100 people and get 100 different facts, the facts that count to me are my own tests, combined with tests made available to me. via Internet, I write VB off as hear say, and move on.

One day, they may be able to conduct an honest test, but that day is not today. You have a right to trust them, as I have a right not to.
-{ Quote: "" }-
zoK:
How did DrWeb do in your tests? :'( :'( :'(
Excuse me I'm still a little shaken by the results.
Well time to post another DrWeb update! ;) ;) ;)
Regards
Tim

[sig]

TAG: here's some basic info about VB's ITW test for the 100% award:

http://www.virusbtn.com/vb100/about/100procedure.xml

Especially note the "Near Misses" paragraph: clearly a product can fail getting the 100% for a number of reasons without being a bad product, but the relevant info to know whether or not that is the case is in the detail reviews in the mag. VB encourages people to read the reviews themselves, although that detail info for current issues is only available to subscribers. A review of past archived issues available online, however, does provide some interesting info about products and the tests.

And just for informational purposes, since occasionally there are claims of VB bias for or against certain products, here's a link to the VB's advisory board:

Pavel Baudis, Alwil Software, Czech Republic
Ray Glath, Tavisco Ltd, USA
Sarah Gordon, WildList Organization International, USA
Shimon Gruper, Aladdin Knowledge Systems Ltd, Israel
Dmitry Gryaznov, Network Associates, USA
Joe Hartmann, Trend Micro, USA
Dr Jan Hruska, Sophos Plc, UK
Eugene Kaspersky, Kaspersky Lab, Russia
Jimmy Kuo, Network Associates, USA
Costin Raiu, Kaspersky Lab, Russia
Charles Renert, Symantec Corporation, USA
Péter Ször, Symantec Corporation, USA
Roger Thompson, ICSA, USA
Joseph Wells, Fortinet, USA
Dr Steve White, IBM Research, USA

http://www.virusbtn.com/magazine/overview/advisory/

[TAG97]

Thanks Sig,
Interesting reading. I guess you must of checked out the price for a suscription. ::) I will never get to read that small print though. :)
I Email DrWeb and asked them if they could fill me in on that.I always wondered why no one showed all the details of the VB Tests. :)
Regards
Tim

[sig]

Yeah, by the time the current edition of the mag gets archived and the detailed test results and reviews are available online, people will be discussing the latest test. ;)

The mag (and the price) apparently is geared to industry professionals, network security admins, AV folks, etc and the employer likely pays for the subscription, I figure. The rest of us either just read old editions online or hope that someone with a subscription discusses the details in a public forum. ;)

[meneer]

Indeed some people really are happy with pro testing:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/06-10-2003/0001962399&EDATE=

[vrf]

I used to trust the Virusbtn. tests but since the last test in june I have serious doubts. For example how is it possible that AVG passes the test and KAV&Dr.WEb don't? There's something weird about those tests.They can be the greatest specialists in the world but if they tell me that AVG has better detection than KAV or Dr.Web I refuse to believe them. This is just out of question, there's no way AVG could detect more viruses then KAV and Dr.Web. And also, test results are very contradictory, av.'s having great results in a certain test, perform mediocre in tests made by others. So I think that anyone should try personally av progs and trust less those tests.

[Paul Wilders]

vrf,

Read Sig's reply #26 in this thread. That should be sufficient ;)

regards.

paul

[vrf]

I've read that, and I've also read some Virusbtn. issues. But, far from making things clear, that surprised me even more. Products missing 20 viruses are given the VB100% award, while products missing 3 viruses aren't. It doesn't matter if they missed ITW viruses or other viruses, 90% is not 100%, however you take it. Probably this happened in the last test too, that's why AVG passed and the 2 russian av's didn't.