I do not think all has been said regarding TDS-3

[Denny]

I went to publish my comments just now, and see that Wayne has closed the thread, so I post my comments here:

-{ Quote: "Dallen, there was no contract, it is called a free offer - a bonus which we didn't have to make. Although we were unable to fulfull this one single free offer (unlike every other free offer we've made, at our expense), most people here are able to understand that its simply not possible, that we've made this decision in their best interests as it will benefit them the most, and that you haven't lost anything nor has it cost you anything, all youre complaining about is something you didnt get for free - something which costs me time and money. If we didn't make free offers then people here would've paid three times by now for ProcessGuard, three times for Port Explorer, and so on - is that how you would like it??? And yes I have read every post in this thread, as well as the thread you recently tried to start to stir things up, which Admins sensibly locked given your history." }-

Wayne,

This is Denny Church, and I own Almaco Computer Services, and have several licenses for your products and the action packs, most of which are for TDS-3 which your records can readily verify. I went to DCS' main site this morning to see why there have been no updates Friday, and this morning, and was redirected to this thread, and I have read every post in it.

Firstly, I just want to get out in the public who I am, and what a long time user, and small computer company that has pushed your products for many years. I have pushed your products for quite some time and in fact, go back long enough in usage that I can remember when a reboot after install on an NT4 system would kill the box, and this can be verified in the private forums of DCS' website when doing a search of my name. You even offered me a free copy of TDS-4 when it came out for compensation for the time and money I lost on a number of early installs.

Further, we recently exchanged E-mails; again, about how I could be paid for the sales of the licenses I have sold in the past and have never been received commissions on. In fact, when I sent my last response for clarification, you never responded. I let that slide because I figured you were busy, and so was I. And as I told you many times in the past, I was not putting up a website just to sell your products when I did not have the time nor staff to do so. I had already pushed your products and continued to do so because, in conjunction with NOD32, of which I am a reseller, I firmly thought I was doing the best for MY clients regarding protection of their systems and networks.

However, I was really shocked to learn of your decision to cancel TDS-3 & 4 and that is why I have read every post in this thread. The more I have read, the angrier I have become, and after reading your response to Dallen, in particular the following quote:

"Dallen, there was no contract, it is called a free offer - a bonus which we didn't have to make."

Well sir, I beg to differ and refer you to the following WebArchive of TDS-3's site:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030810032016/diamondcs.com.au/index.php?page=shop

Now, the special Action Pack does explicitly offer free upgrades as part of the purchase, and I quote:

Special - Action Pack

TDS-3, Port Explorer, and WormGuard 3
Free upgrades: TDS4, Wormguard4
1 Home/Business/Educational License
On special for just $99 (package value $190)

That sir, is not a bonus, but part of the explicit purchase contract, whether it costs you money or not. In compensation, your offer license exchanges for PE/PG and for those of use that already have this, and you suggest we hand these out to friends, but quite frankly, this is not going to cut it, particularly in light of the fact that you have stated here that TDS-4 is to be used in a future product:

"A lot of TDS4 technology will be released in our next program, although it won't of course have a database."

As a client, I certainly am offended that you expect me to generate good will for your company, particularly after telling me that you are breaking your claim. Why should I continue to make money for DCS when I cannot trust what is now stated. It is not DCS that stands in front of my clients, nor is it DCS that stands in front of friends and says:

“Here take this free software license from a company I cannot trust.”

You have even went so far as to suggest that we charge them by splitting the fee:

“On another note, in regards to the free PE/PG licenses we've offered, to those who already have PE and PG we're extending the offer so that you can have a free license generated for a friend (you may even choose to have them pay you half of your license cost). We obviously can't offer anything in regards to future software as that is one of the main things we've been criticised for in this thread, and we do listen!”

Since this means that you must amend DCS’ license agreements, when will this be put publicly in writing so that we, the end users may have a copy? I for one do not wish to possibly perform something illegal, even at the software vendor’s insistence in a public forum, and want to make sure of this.

Now, as a small businessman, this statement also shocked me:

"If anybody would be emotionally hurt it should be me - I've paid for the ongoing maintenance since I created TDS in the mid-late 90s out of my own pocket in terms of money, and with my own time and resources in terms of development. It is now at the stage where it is costing me so much time and so much money that it is not worth it, especially when I could be using that time to develop software far more powerful and beneficial to the user."

Well Wayne, if creating a product costs you time, money and effort to bring to market, and after all these years you did not know this, sorry to burst your bubble, but that is what happens- but you know this. What is galling, is to tell us (your clients) this- is just hogwash. You could have changed your terms a long time ago, for future purchases, and YOU chose not to.

In this thread you tell us that you have not had more than a two-day vacation since 1997, but yet, I think back to Christmas 2004/New Years 2005 when ALL of the TDS-3 clients had to do without updates for how long?

Wayne, quit trying to engender sympathy or pity, it seems obvious that TDS-4 free upgrades are going to cost you way to much, and this is your way of making sure it does not.

You have done what you consider best for Wayne and DCS, but by cutting off all updates in this fashion, you have really burned some bridges, and I think Dallen and CrownKing82 are on the money- so much so that to see Dallen's Poll closed really smacks of fear. You may not have had a thing to do with closing it, but it benefits you and you only- not the people who have purchased TDS-3 and come to this forum for support.

Denny Church
ACS
Texas

[Infinity]

Hi Denny,

every day people have to make decisions, so what do you do..you cannot compare your firm with DCS...you don't know what's going on...

you got to see things into perspective my friend...things are not lost...if you do remember like 6 months ago...you remember a topnotch product, enjoying every bit it has .. tds-3 was 6 months ago top tier product still....(subjective off course)


you can see the potential of the other products..and I truely have a better processguard and wormguard then a better tds-3 ... future lies in that .. that you can sell to your customers.. that you can do .. I read your statement here and I truely think you can sell good 8)

sigs scanning is not the future anymore...thigs are more staticaly...like what you have on your firm, not comparable..


Take care,

Inf.

[ellison64]

I feel very sorry for those that purchased tds3 recently too.If the company had gone into liquidation or some other similar catastrophe , then i think no one would quibble.However just to announce without any prewarning and indeed to actively mislead prospective buyers through this forum and the website ,of an upgrade to tds4 is either very naive or very calculating.As for stating that diamond ds has no legal obligations in honouring thier explicitlly stated free upgrade to tds4 , i just wonder how Wayne would feel if every buyer disregarded ds product eulas and distributed the products freely.It smacks of the same hypocrisy to me.I dont think Waynes desicion in discontinuing tds3 is the issue......its the timing and fashion thats the problem.
ellison

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "I feel very sorry for those that purchased tds3 recently too.If the company had gone into liquidation or some other similar catastrophe , then i think no one would quibble.However just to announce without any prewarning and indeed to actively mislead prospective buyers through this forum and the website ,of an upgrade to tds4 is either very naive or very calculating.As for stating that diamond ds has no legal obligations in honouring thier explicitlly stated free upgrade to tds4 , i just wonder how Wayne would feel if every buyer disregarded ds product eulas and distributed the products freely.It smacks of the same hypocrisy to me.I dont think Waynes desicion in discontinuing tds3 is the issue......its the timing and fashion thats the problem.
ellison" }-ellison64,

As has been stated here (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=516796&postcount=244):-{ Quote: "
Even if you recently purchased TDS3 you're still entitled to a free license to your choice of Port Explorer or ProcessGuard (and still retain your TDS3 license which remains valid), however if you're not happy with that then simply email sales@diamondcs.com.au so we can discuss refund options." }-Rather than focus on what is gone, focus on moving forward. If the standard offer doesn't make it, see what options exist, but that is best done offline. However, I would assume everyone keeps market norms in mind and the simple fact of the matter is that a TDS type of product has a one-year life with renewal option as a market norm. That is a yardstick that I used for myself in assessing whether a refund/partial refund was in order or whether the license offer was sufficient - for me a 5-pack of PE was fine as a replacement for 5 TDS licenses, all greater than a year old.

Blue

[Antarctica]

-{ Quote: "I feel very sorry for those that purchased tds3 recently too.If the company had gone into liquidation or some other similar catastrophe , then i think no one would quibble.However just to announce without any prewarning and indeed to actively mislead prospective buyers through this forum and the website ,of an upgrade to tds4 is either very naive or very calculating.As for stating that diamond ds has no legal obligations in honouring thier explicitlly stated free upgrade to tds4 , i just wonder how Wayne would feel if every buyer disregarded ds product eulas and distributed the products freely.It smacks of the same hypocrisy to me.I dont think Waynes desicion in discontinuing tds3 is the issue......its the timing and fashion thats the problem.
ellison" }-

Absolutly agree with you ellison. In december 2004 I was interesting about TDS-3 and I ask the question on the Forum if I was better To wait for TDS-4 or get TDS-3 right now. http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=58369
In fact the only one who told me I should wait for TDS-4 was Dallen. Finally I decided to buy TDS-3 and of course I regret now because the "generous offer" from Wayne to get PG or PE licence for free doesn't apply to me since I already have both of them >:(

[ellison64]

Ive already read the the complete thread BlueZannetti.The offer by Wayne is (imo) very scant consolation for purchasers in the last month or two, considering many users either have the other programes or cant run them due to operating systems.Its a farce that the sticky in this forum which wayne proudly proclaims that tds4 will be here soon and will even work on 98 is still there.Dont get me wrong ive had tds3 for years ( only as a backup for the last year), so im not going to quibble over what ive recieved .However for new or recent purchasers , i think Waynes offer is rather contemptable ,especially when tds4 technology is (according to Wayne) being used in thier new projects.Im sure Wayne and the ds crew are very decent guys , however they could do with a customer realation crash course.
ellison

[muf]

I'm sorry to see the way this has gone. I had high hopes for TDS4. Reading the whole of the 'TDS software line discontinued' thread and especially Wayne's comments, i have come to the conclusion that Wayne doesn't really care about what he has done to his TDS3 customers. His persistence at "not offering something for free that is not yet released" is just an excuse to avoid having to offer his TDS3 customers a copy of his rebadged TDS4 that is 'just around the corner'. Wayne probably realises that the majority of potential sales of his new product will be the people who already own TDS3, and if he has to give it away for free he will be left with a very small number of sales. This is all about revenue. Good will, decency, ethics - and more just flew out the window and i have to say that unless something is done to remedy this complete disregard for the TDS3 customers then my custom will definately not be used on DCS products. I have two, and that's how it will stay if things aren't put right. As they should be!!!

You know how the statue feels when it's stuck there in the middle of a town square with hundreds of pigeon's. The TDS3 customers are the statue...

muf

[Antarctica]

-{ Quote: " i have to say that unless something is done to remedy this complete disregard for the TDS3 customers then my custom will definately not be used on DCS products. I have two, and that's how it will stay if things aren't put right. As they should be!!!
" }-

That's exactly what I will do also unless I get satisfaction on my request to DCS, which is a refund or at least a partial refund of TDS-3. ???

Anyway in the mean time we can only wait and see how they will solve that out. I think it will be on the case by case. 8)

[Denny]

-{ Quote: "Hi Denny,

every day people have to make decisions, so what do you do..you cannot compare your firm with DCS...you don't know what's going on...

you got to see things into perspective my friend...things are not lost...if you do remember like 6 months ago...you remember a topnotch product, enjoying every bit it has .. tds-3 was 6 months ago top tier product still....(subjective off course)


you can see the potential of the other products..and I truely have a better processguard and wormguard then a better tds-3 ... future lies in that .. that you can sell to your customers.. that you can do .. I read your statement here and I truely think you can sell good 8)

sigs scanning is not the future anymore...thigs are more staticaly...like what you have on your firm, not comparable..


Take care,

Inf." }-

Infinity,

You are correct, I do not know what is going on with DCS beyond the fact that up until Wayne pulled the plug, he was still selling TDS-3 with absolutely no notice. He could have warned customers three months ago, which would have allowed us to seek other solutions. This was not an over night decision upon his part, but he expects we customers to provide him understanding?

Now, those of us who actually care for our customers are left scrambling to find something we are happy installing and does not conflict with installed software and work well. Never mind that this will cost us time and resources that are dollars out of our pocket, not Wayne's- ours. What of us, who are heavily involved with other projects right now? Not just we small computer firms who pushed his products, but the everyday user? Wayne’s actions have put us in a bind and he offers us PE/PG licenses as compensation, which is a slap in the face- nothing more.

Infinity, the reason I am a good salesman is because the products I push are the best that I can find for the client for the dollar. Not all clients are large corporations; in fact most of my clients have small networks and are of limited resources. Moreover, before I sell them on any product, I must first be sold, and this is not a quick or easy task to accomplish.

Process Guard is a pig- slow and encumbering and not suited for every system no matter what many would like to believe. I have tried to run it successfully on a number of systems and it has repeatedly brought the systems to a crawl. My main system is an AMD XP2500+ w/ a GB or RAM and it was like using molasses in the winter with it installed, and this was with most process stripped- no thank you. As to potential, yes, but due to the way Wayne has killed TDS-3, I honestly cannot suggest to my clients that they purchase and use his products now, can you?

I appreciate the comments, good will, and your suggestions, but the future products I sell will not be DCS'.

Best regards,

Denny

[Atomas31]

Personnally, I understand Wayne not wanted to give away his new software since this is part of the reason of the reuse of TDS-4 technologies under a new name. But, I certainly don't understand why can he give some extra discount on his next software for those who already own PG, PE and WG????? I think there is no excuse not to give extra discount, on the rebrand of the TDS-4 technologie, and by not doing so, Wayne, proof that he doesn't listen to his customers and doesn't understand the situation here...

Atomas31

[David Schenk]

-{ Quote: "...i have come to the conclusion that Wayne doesn't really care about what he has done to his TDS3 customers. His persistence at "not offering something for free that is not yet released" is just an excuse to avoid having to offer his TDS3 customers a copy of his rebadged TDS4 that is 'just around the corner'. ...muf" }-

Excuse me,

I really don't post on message boards much, but man, **what** are you talking about? ? ? ? Wayne has been clear in the closed thread that their upcoming software is *NOT* a "rebadged TDS4". I think the comment made about TDS4 technology refers more to some of the recent improvements to ProcessGuard, which I bought and do now love (it even blocks that obnoxious and intrusive InterActual Player that tries to script an install every time I insert a commercial DVD into my drive--both thanks and kudos, gentlemen).

I understand that several customers are very frustrated with DCS's decision to discontinue their AT line, but for Heaven's sake, try to apply the principle of charity to their motivations just a *little* bit. Some of you waited more than a year to see TDS4 and now apparently you can't give them a week or two to see how they intend to remedy the losses you suffered from this?? Come on...

Also, Wayne explicitly said in his initial post on the closed thread that customers who, for **ANY** reason were not satisfied with their conciliatory offer, could email them and negotiate another means of remedy, including refund options.

Jeez, WHAT MORE DO YOU GUYS WANT?? I so don't get it...

I almost bought the ActionPack myself a week ago and I *am* glad I didn't, but the response of some of the angrier posters on this board has me flabbergasted. Yeah, maybe it wasn't their best decision to tell people that TDS4 was right around the corner, but who here has never had that experience of honestly thinking they could do more than, in fact, time, resources and personal sanity permitted?? I've done it. Anyone here who has never let hope and optimism lead them to overestimate their ability to accomplish something??

I don't think it's fair for us to go about verbally reaming these guys for making what was clearly a very difficult decision. I do think it's fair for those customers who do not want or have no use for a replacement license to negotiate a refund or other remedy by private email, but really that's it.

After lurking here for years and seeing all the camaraderie and all the good work, I really am shocked by the reactions some people have made within a three-day time frame. It is genuinely uncivil and, in my opinion, inappropriate.

Wayne, I'm going out on a limb here with a "bold conjecture," so tell me I'm half-cocked. My guess is that the DCS guys both felt really crummy already when they decided they couldn't maintain the TDS line, so insulting them and cooking up all sorts of evidentially unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about their motives will not be able to make them feel bad, since they *already* *do*. That's just my own personal guess from personal experience in such situations...

So my plea at this point is just this: let us return to the civil and congenial tone that has been the norm here for some time and give DCS at least a week or two as they scramble to get new licenses and refunds and what-not out the door, respond to customer emails, polite and otherwise, and finish development on their new software.

Let us at least give them a good faith *chance* to clean up some of this mess that they now find themselves in and give those unhappy customers at least partial satisfaction in all but the irrational cases (you know, someone who purchased TDS *years* ago and now wants to sue for "breach of contract" or some sanctimonious jive like that).

The reaction I have seen over the weekend really does strike me as deeply unfair and hyper-judgmental. We can give them two measly weeks to straighten this out, can't we? No one's lives will be permanently damaged by doing that, I assume.

I can't believe I actually wrote this and responded to people's comments, because I never do that, but there you have it. I personally think at least a touch of patience and charity toward them is in order.

Sincerely,

David Schenk

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "Personnally, I understand Wayne not wanted to give away his new software since this is part of the reason of the reuse of TDS-4 technologies under a new name. But, I certainly don't understand why can he give some extra discount on his next software for those who already own PG, PE and WG????? I think there is no excuse not to give extra discount, on the rebrand of the TDS-4 technologie, and by not doing so, Wayne, proof that he doesn't listen to his customers and doesn't understand the situation here...

Atomas31" }-

The obviousness of this solution, leads me to only one conclusion - in some way DCS's hands are tied on this matter. Who knows what it could be. Unfortunately, the situation has left many, many people with a bad taste in their mouth, and DCS will have to deal with the long term repercussions.

Rich

[Atomas31]

I also don't understand why they didn't give us any warning what was coming our way, that might have been more professionnal! Instead they simply drop a bomb on friday that everything (TDS) is over and that is effective starting at this moment and naturally they don't work on week end????

Atomas31

[David Schenk]

-{ Quote: "... But, I certainly don't understand why can he give some extra discount on his next software for those who already own PG, PE and WG?????...Atomas31" }-

Hello,

(Jeez, I'm writing *again*...)

This seems very reasonable, actually, but there is one *mere possibility* that crossed my mind when reading your post. It may be that DCS *will* be willing to give such a discount, but that given the collapse of TDS4 after such a long wait, they don't want to publicly *make* that offer until they actually have the software product in hand and ready to go. I mean, if they make that offer before the software is finished and a bunch of people take the offer and then the software that seemed so promising during development just sort of explodes on them, they'll have a LOT more angry people then than they already have now. It's bad enough with one discontinued line that people have awaited; I doubt they really want to see *two*.

Like I said, this is *merely* a possible explanation that is the product of circumstantially driven *conjecture*. The truth is it's just too early for us to really know what's going to happen at this point.

Sincerely,

David Schenk

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "I also don't understand why they didn't give us any warning what was coming our way, that might have been more professionnal! Instead they simply drop a bomb on friday that everything (TDS) is over and that is effective starting at this moment and naturally they don't work on week end????

Atomas31" }-

Yep, it was handled very poorly. It could be that DCS just bungled it - or it could be that there are "outside forces" that dictated the manner in which the whole thing unfolded. Whatever it is (was), I will remain as baffled as you are.

Rich

[Infinity]

Me don't get this either honestly .. since when do we not give any chance to developers when they always have been proven to do right ...

I purchased the action pack 1.5 year ago...me too purchased it hence the upgrade to tds-4 and whatever.

And I know, and if everybody is at least slightly honest they'll recognize this, that DCS always been on the good side .. always I felt I could resolve my issues .. always had topnotch product. that will not change .. if it does: well, time to complain but not now .. things can happen, and sometimes you got to make decisions for rescuing your business too...

that for me is something like: hell, ok..now it's my turn to do something ...

at least for all the good times we had ;)

[David Schenk]

-{ Quote: "I also don't understand why they didn't give us any warning what was coming our way, that might have been more professionnal! Instead they simply drop a bomb on friday that everything (TDS) is over and that is effective starting at this moment and naturally they don't work on week end????

Atomas31" }-

Hello again,

Well, is it not possible that they kept telling themselves they'd find a way to maintain the product line and then on Thursday or Friday either or both of them had a bit of a breakdown and finally admitted they just couldn't keep doing all this work with only two guys? What I mean is, optimism can keep a person trying to accomplish to impossible right up until they finally collapse. Might this not be akin to what we are seeing here?

Again, this is just more conjecture. I do not think it is wise for us to read between the lines too much at such an early stage.

Sincerely,

David Schenk

[beetlejuice69]

-{ Quote: "Hello again,

Well, is it not possible that they kept telling themselves they'd find a way to maintain the product line and then on Thursday or Friday either or both of them had a bit of a breakdown and finally admitted they just couldn't keep doing all this work with only two guys? What I mean is, optimism can keep a person trying to accomplish to impossible right up until they finally collapse. Might this not be akin to what we are seeing here?

Again, this is just more conjecture. I do not think it is wise for us to read between the lines too much at such an early stage.

Sincerely,

David Schenk" }-

If what you`re saying is true, then they should have waited to make the announcement today, than have everyone steaming over the weekend with no one to be accountable. JMO

[David Schenk]

-{ Quote: "If what you`re saying is true, then they should have waited to make the announcement today, than have everyone steaming over the weekend with no one to be accountable. JMO" }-

Hello,

Sure, I suppose that would have been a bit more politic, and right now we just don't know why they made the announcement on Friday rather than Monday. Maybe it was only on Friday that they finally made the decision to discontinue and then, in a very blue mood, they announced the decision without even considering that a Monday announcement would have been a little bit tidier. Maybe once the decision was made they figured they had better just bite the bullet and let people know right away, lest people begin to question their timing. Maybe they just wanted to get the information out so they wouldn't spend the weekend obsessing about how to word the announcement. Maybe they have deep and wildly esoteric religious convictions that prohibit them from making Monday announcements. It's still all conjecture at this point.

Anyway, I really don't see where the difference of waiting two days or so to get more information on a single piece of software merits the kind of reactions I saw over the weekend.

Sincerely,

David Schenk (who really ought to stop procrastinating his *own* work at this point...)

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: "sometimes you got to make decisions for rescuing your business too..." }-
Theoretical is that correct.

But practical it can turn into an disaster.

The negative aspects of the DiamondCS decision could overrule the positive very easy.

Only the long term will bring lightness in the the darkness, at this very moment it is probably a win-situation for DCS (I assume), but will it stay that way?

I have my heavy doubts.

[beetlejuice69]

Wow Dave that`s some pile of maybe`s but you MAY BE right. ::)

[Infinity]

I'll see what future brings and I won't leave my sleep, I do feel this is a sad case .. but hey ..

last thing I've said about this all .. ;D

[David Schenk]

-{ Quote: "Me don't get this either honestly .. since when do we not give any chance to developers when they always have been proven to do right ..." }-

Hi Infinity,

Amen, man. DCS clearly has been working very hard to try to secure our computers for us over the years.

Doesn't our collective ire belong with the people who try to hack into our computers, turn them into spam zombies and/or put keyloggers on them, and of course the darling angels at Yahoo and other advertising-based outfits who try to put all sorts of persistent tracking cookies on our machines so they can scream at us to buy junk that we do not want? Why yell at the good guys for, unless I miss my guess, ultimately just committing the sin of trying too hard??

Alright, now I really am going to stop procrastinating and turn to my own work.

Peace,

David Schenk

[--ntl--]

I do not want to say too much about the DCS announcement. Unfortunately, Wayne fails to see WHY he is (partially) wrong and some of the others are (partially) right.

What I would like to propose is the following:

1.
Because TDS-3 is not sold anymore it should be considered to release the program under a freeware license. This would be in line with DCS's claim "We don't sell many programs - Most of our software is free". Moreover, future sales of DCS would not be affected by such step because DCS does not plan to sell any signature-based scanners in the future.

2.
In order to make TDS-3 freeware it would be required that DCS also makes available the editor which is used to add new signatures to the database. Again, I can't see any negative impact on DCS's future sales which might result from such step. TDS-3 has a huge crowd of supporters. Some of them may be prepared to read a tutorial on how to pick signatures and add new malware to the database. It's not that difficult to collect malware and create signatures if you are prepared to spend some time in order to educate yourself. In particular, this applies if a scanner (like TDS) does not rely on the use of code-based signatures.

I acknowledge that TDS-3 is a little bit outdated. However, it's still a fairly good scanner and, consequently, it might be worth to continue this program as freeware (at least for a certain period of time).

If this does not work out for whatever reason...nothing will be lost.

[jp morgan]

Anyone who can see this whole thing objectively would see that DCS screwed up big time, and are going to lose many customers over this whole thing. If they were just more honest in their actions to begin with, then you wouldn't have all these angry folks.

DCS should have notified all customers way ahead of time before pulling this stunt. It's what any professional business would have done, and those companies that don't are simply saying "We don't care about you" and it is VERY unprofessional behavior to act this way. Really it's more like something some kids in a third rate home based operation would pull, not professionals.

I would like to see a public apology to all TDS-3 users, from DCS, for their mishandling of this whole situation, and then offer a free license of this new so-called super secret software to all current licensed TDS-3 users.

It's really the only thing that will earn back my trust and respect for the DCS team after this hugh mess that DCS caused to begin with. I would think it would also go a long way to showing that they are trying to make amends for this very unprofessional disaster.

Show some class, honesty and professionalism DCS, and apologize for your obvious screw up here, and rectify your mistakes by offering the free program to all current TDS-3 users.

JPM

[dog]

-{ Quote: "I acknowledge that TDS-3 is a little bit outdated. However, it's still a fairly good scanner and, consequently, it might be worth to continue this program as freeware (at least for a certain period of time).

If this does not work out for whatever reason...nothing will be lost." }-Would there be an alternative motive here?

[muf]

-{ Quote: "Excuse me,

I really don't post on message boards much, but man, **what** are you talking about? ? ? ? Wayne has been clear in the closed thread that their upcoming software is *NOT* a "rebadged TDS4". I think the comment made about TDS4 technology refers more to some of the recent improvements to ProcessGuard, which I bought and do now love. " }-

Let me refresh your memory. Post #248
-{ Quote: "A lot of TDS4 technology will be released in our next program " }-

I don't see where you extrapolate from Wayne's comment improvements to ProcessGuard. He didn't say that. His wording quite clearly says that TDS4 technologies will be evident in his next program.

I think you'll find that there isn't anti-DCS going on here. Or no witch hunt for that matter which i suspect is the reason for your 'prominent' support. DCS have gone back on their word, and shrugged it off as inconsequential. The customers aren't happy about it, and are letting DCS know about it. If DCS want to shrug their shoulders and say "so what" then they risk the possibility of losing customers. Telling customers that they have lost their free upgrade but can purchase the next new software at full whack just doesn't cut it with most customers. That's what the TDS3 crew are trying to hammer home to Wayne, but he chooses to not listen. His cross, he has to bare it.

muf

[Tron]

This seems like a suitable solution to me, does this sound a reasonable proposition to everyone ? Quoting directly from the webpage..

I have a suggestion which could alleviate a lot of frustration amongst users. If they choose not to take up the current/future offers, then for every month of purchase they get back between, one 12th and up to 100% of the purchase price going back a full year. I think that sounds fair and reasonable and would bring much kudos to DCS.

hxxp://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,13955382~start=40#end

[David Schenk]

-{ Quote: "Let me refresh your memory. Post #248


I don't see where you extrapolate from Wayne's comment improvements to ProcessGuard. He didn't say that. His wording quite clearly says that TDS4 technologies will be evident in his next program.

I think you'll find that there isn't anti-DCS going on here. Or no witch hunt for that matter which i suspect is the reason for your 'prominent' support. DCS have gone back on their word, and shrugged it off as inconsequential. The customers aren't happy about it, and are letting DCS know about it. If DCS want to shrug their shoulders and say "so what" then they risk the possibility of losing customers. Telling customers that they have lost their free upgrade but can purchase the next new software at full whack just doesn't cut it with most customers. That's what the TDS3 crew are trying to hammer home to Wayne, but he chooses to not listen. His cross, he has to bare it.

muf" }-

Hello,

You're right--I did misremember the comment about the upcoming software. Thank you for the correction. Nonetheless, while I agree there is no witch hunt here, there is a considerable amount of overreaction and leaping to judgment. I mean, the announcement was made FRIDAY. It is now MONDAY; how much time have we actually given them to explain just what's going on and how best to pursue remedies for purchased licenses?

I fully grant, it does not help appearances that they kept saying TDS4 was on its way, but I've already pointed to at least one or two possible non-paranoid explanations of how this might have happened. Really, I still insist we just have to wait for them to give a fuller account of all this. When has conjecture ever been anything *more* than conjecture?

I also do not see good evidence for your claim that they have shrugged this off as inconsequential. Again, quite a bit more time is needed to make such a sweeping determination of their attitude and approach. All we actually *KNOW* at this time is that DCS cancelled a product line with a much-anticipated update. Kevin McAleavey's comments on all of this were extremely informative (probably because unlike ours, they were also extremely informed).

From way across the ocean, it looks to me like they found themselves just unable to keep up with the rate of increase of new trojans and so could not maintain the updates and therefore judged that the definition-based software was no longer viable. I can *easily* see honest and well-intentioned people putting off the moment where they finally confess that it's just too much for one or two people to keep up with all the new definitions. You know--it's not always easy to admit defeat (especially when you're fighting for something worthy).

No, man--I repeat my plea for a return to some degree of charity and civility here. Scream at them after they *demonstrate* that they don't care about their TDS customers, not three hours after the angry and essentially reactive *suspicion* that they don't care first enters one's head. That just isn't fair.

-David

[Denny]

-{ Quote: "Hello,
No, man--I repeat my plea for a return to some degree of charity and civility here. Scream at them after they *demonstrate* that they don't care about their TDS customers, not three hours after the angry and essentially reactive *suspicion* that they don't care first enters one's head. That just isn't fair.
-David" }-

David,

Neither was abandoning, without warning, the installed paid user base of TDS-3.

Wayne has demonstrated exactly what he thinks he can do and get away with to the paid customers of TDS-3.

Denny

[richrf]

Hi all,

I would characterize this as a DCS decision, as opposed to a Wayne decision. The two may not be equivalent. Sometimes it is difficult to make a judgement about what may be happening without all of the facts. But I do agree, that whatever "entity" made the decisions, it was ill-advised and will continue to come back and haunt the company. For example, whenever someone tries to recommend a DCS product, as opposed to a competitive product (of which there will be many), this incident will surely be brought up. So who wants to take the constant flak? Not I.

Cya,
Rich

[hollywoodpc]

This is all funny .
Poor management . Did Wayne lie all along ? Who cares . Tds is now a joke . Gone . Let it go . I knew a longgggg time back that this would happen . The problem is , Moderators and Administrators have told you all to basically shutup when asking about TDS4 . I love how the SAME old DCS butt kissers are still doing it too . It is funny . DCS has caused this by being too quiet on TDS 4 all along . Had they kept you updated on progress via the forum , I think things would be much better . WILL they HAVE more products ? Based on the 20 years it took to make TDS 4 , then to say , SORRY , no TDS 4 . Too funny . More products huh ? I hope but , I will believe it when I see it as the comments made by Wayne concerning new products SHOULD be falling on deaf ears .
If there are to be more products , let us hope that management handles things better this time . Of course , is the forum any good when it comes to this ? NOPE . What has anyone heard in the last 12-15 concerning the TDS 4 release and what is happening with it ? Let me refresh your memories . Quoting now " It will be ready when it is ready " . AKA . " SHUT THE $#@! UP ABOUT IT . Very sad but this is why I left long ago . No respect for the users . Just butt kissers for the TDS crew . I realize they put much time and effort into this . But , AGAIN , you all should have been kept up to date on what was happening . They chose not to and people are now angry . I , for one , am glad it is now over . I hope admins and mods will leave well enough alone and let people talk about this . Too much censorship going on . Again , when people start talking about DCS in a bad way , OMG , the " biggies " must step in and tell us to be quiet . Stop talking bad about DCS . WAH WAH WAH .
People are upset and angry and rightfully so . The idiots that continue to overlook that and talk about how GREAT DCS is should remove themselves from this forum on TDS . I do not think the RIGHT people need to be battered AGAIN by these low lifes ballyhooing TDS and how great it WAS ! Let the people that are bothered discuss this among themselves here . They do not need your help in telling them to not be negative as that gets you no where . O h well . TDS is gone , people are upset , let them be . Maybe there ARE good things to come .
I must say though , Gavin is as good as they come . Make no mistake . Wayne went about this completely wrong ! But , their support was top notch and , I believe , will continue to be IF they stay in business . Just sad that years of good support are ruined due to their lack of info on what was happening over the last 15 months .
To Dallen and all who never liked the silence on the TDS subject , I am sorry . I know how you feel .
Wonder how long it will be before one of the wonderful mods or admins come and remove this .? hahaha . Like I care . Good luck you guys and God Bless

[Defenestration]

-{ Quote: "Hi all,

I would characterize this as a DCS decision, as opposed to a Wayne decision. The two may not be equivalent. Sometimes it is difficult to make a judgement about what may be happening without all of the facts. But I do agree, that whatever "entity" made the decisions, it was ill-advised and will continue to comeback and haunt the company. For example, whenever someone tries to recommend a DCS product, as opposed to a competitive product (of which there will be many), this incident will surely be brought up. So who wants to take the constant flak? Not I.
" }-
Very astute observation richrf, and one I have made myself.

I have already had my say on this decision and it surprises me that a company which has prided itself on customer service coupled with innovative technology, they suddenly decide to ignore there customers opinions, as voiced in this and the other thread, and consistently post the same information in their (ie. Wayne's) replies.

This leads me to the opinion that DCS has either been bought out, or invested in, by a third party (hence discontinuation of TDS line and the limited time offer for current users) with Wayne, Gavin and Co continuing to work for the company. If this third party wishes to continue using the DCS as a brand identity, they are making a cardinal error, with their current policy tarnishing the reputation of DCS as a honest and trustworthy company.

Admittedly, this is only speculation, but I'm sure all will be revealed soon enough.

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Nothing is being said or asked that hasn't been said/asked a dozen times already, and some of you are so far off the mark as well, ie. claiming that we've been bought out by a third party? That is an unsubstantiated claim that you've just thought up out of nowhere, it is completely wrong, and you're misleading every other fellow member of this forum by making such claims. This thread will remain unlocked for now, but please folks remain civil, on topic, and this isnt Hollywood so lets give the rumours a break, they just get in the way of your fellow members questions and thoughts. This is business - hard decisions sometimes need to be made but if it's in the best interests of our customers then we won't hesitate to make them, as we're here for the long run which is why this decision needed to be made. I know that some of you (ie. especially those new to TDS) aren't in the position to be able to understand these sorts of decisions as there are so many underlying issues that need to be understood before the decision can be fully comprehended as obviously it's not a simple decision so especially those newcomers will no doubt be somewhat confused and angry, and that's fair enough, but in time all will become crystal clear so to them we ask for some patience. Many companies in our position would've been afraid to make the decision due to inevitable criticism that you initially get whenever you discontinue a software product (under any circumstances), but we're not afraid to get our feet wet if it means we'll be able to carry our customers over to the other side where there are greener pastures. Rather than concentrating on one program that you haven't even seen before, think about all the software that we'll now finally be able to release, made possible by this decison.

Many of you giving criticism are perfectly entitled to do so, but I urge you to consider the future - not just one single program that you wish you had today. We have made this decision in order to be able to release more software to you - ie. what you come to us for, and YOU will be the ultimate winner, regardless of whether or not you understand or agree with the decision now. We're here for the long run folks, for you, and if anti-trojan/anti-spyware etc etc developers don't start making big decisions soon then you'll find that they probably won't be here for the long run, it's that simple. That is not my opinion, it's just how it is - I speak as a former anti-trojan developer with many years of experience, having developed anti-trojan software since the very first remote access trojans for Windows were released - it's not an easy industry to be in that's for sure, and I take my hat off to all the anti-trojan developers for sticking to their guns in an ever-declining industry, but sometimes you've gotta know when to move on. Signature scanning certainly has a place, but we've got more to offer than that. Just think about how few programs and software updates are being released by other anti-trojan developers ... the reason is because they're basically in the same boat as we had been, their resources are all tied up due to the dynamic day-to-day demands of the work (regardless of license/fee structure). However unlike most other AT developers, we have other software to fall back on (ie. PG, PE, WG), whereas because their scanner is essentially their only selling program they probably don't have the option of making a decision like we've made as they'd then be out of a job, so it'll make for some interesting times ahead for them to say the least if they continue to run with just one program in a declining market, but all I'll say is that if you think missing out on one free upgrade to a program is big news (its not, software is conceived and discontinued every day), then keep your eyes on the other scanners over the coming months/year(s) and see where they, and their customers end up, it will be interesting, one way or another ... :).

So basically there were two options - you can have just one program for a short time (which is what some of you would prefer right now), or you can have lots of programs for many years to come (which is what all of you will eventually agree with in time). We've made the choice that we know some people may disagree with this year, but will make more and more sense as the years go on. All I'll say is you just watch our growth over the next couple of years, and keep an eye on the continued lack of growth by other anti-trojan developers, the same lack of growth we were experiencing due to our own scanner - they are just such an immense resource, the type where there is always work to be done, but the sales in a declining industry dont make enough to employ further analysts and programmers (expensive), and proof of that can be seen by how few anti-trojan analysts there are.

Business is not just about today, security isn't just about one program, and TDS isn't the be all and end all of security (you haven't even seen what we're releasing next!) - always consider the bigger picture. We're evolving with the times, and we're not afraid to make the big decisions if it will be beneficial to our customers, so I don't have any concerns at all today about this decision or the criticism from some TDS users because I'm too excited giving them our upcoming releases, as I know that if you liked TDS then you'll love what we've got coming up.

If you still have any questions or concerns about ANYTHING then please re-read the previous thread, and if that fails to answer your question then simply contact us at sales@diamondcs.com.au, we can't make it any easier than that.

Anyway that is all I have to say on this matter, we've moved on - for you. We wouldn't if it wasn't in your best interests, it's that simple.

Over and out and back to work,
Wayne

[Denny]

-{ Quote: "Nothing is being said or asked that hasn't been said/asked a dozen times already, and some of you are so far off the mark as well, ie. claiming that we've been bought out by a third party? That is an unsubstantiated claim that you've just thought up out of nowhere, it is completely wrong, and you're misleading every other fellow member of this forum by making such claims. This thread will remain unlocked for now, but please folks remain civil, on topic, and this isnt Hollywood so lets give the rumours a break, they just get in the way of your fellow members questions and thoughts. This is business - hard decisions sometimes need to be made but if it's in the best interests of our customers then we won't hesitate to make them, as we're here for the long run which is why this decision needed to be made. I know that some of you (ie. especially those new to TDS) aren't in the position to be able to understand these sorts of decisions as there are so many underlying issues that need to be understood before the decision can be fully comprehended as obviously it's not a simple decision so especially those newcomers will no doubt be somewhat confused and angry, and that's fair enough, but in time all will become crystal clear so to them we ask for some patience. Many companies in our position would've been afraid to make the decision due to inevitable criticism that you initially get whenever you discontinue a software product (under any circumstances), but we're not afraid to get our feet wet if it means we'll be able to carry our customers over to the other side where there are greener pastures. Rather than concentrating on one program that you haven't even seen before, think about all the software that we'll now finally be able to release, made possible by this decison." }-

Wayne,

I am not a newcomer and this you know. I have not repeatedly purchased your product because of the free upgrade, but because it worked so well and I told you so in the very first E-mail I ever sent you. I continued to push your product, without compensation, even after we had agreed that I did not have to have a website, but substantiate the sale, which every one of my sales was marked in the comments section, or to my E-mail address for my client. Why did I do this you ask, quite simply because TDS-3 was the best Anti-Trojan tool, and the support, particularly by Gavin and Jooske, was beyond reproach.

This I want everyone to know.

-{ Quote: "Many of you giving criticism are perfectly entitled to do so, but I urge you to consider the future - not just one single program that you wish you had today. We have made this decision in order to be able to release more software to you - ie. what you come to us for, and YOU will be the ultimate winner, regardless of whether or not you understand or agree with the decision now. We're here for the long run folks, for you, and if anti-trojan/anti-spyware etc etc developers don't start making big decisions soon then you'll find that they probably won't be here for the long run, it's that simple. That is not my opinion, it's just how it is - I speak as a former anti-trojan developer with many years of experience, having developed anti-trojan software since the very first remote access trojans for Windows were released - it's not an easy industry to be in that's for sure, and I take my hat off to all the anti-trojan developers for sticking to their guns in an ever-declining industry, but sometimes you've gotta know when to move on. Signature scanning certainly has a place, but we've got more to offer than that. Just think about how few programs and software updates are being released by other anti-trojan developers ... the reason is because they're basically in the same boat as we had been, their resources are all tied up due to the dynamic day-to-day demands of the work (regardless of license/fee structure). However unlike most other AT developers, we have other software to fall back on (ie. PG, PE, WG), whereas because their scanner is essentially their only selling program they probably don't have the option of making a decision like we've made as they'd then be out of a job, so it'll make for some interesting times ahead for them to say the least if they continue to run with just one program in a declining market, but all I'll say is that if you think missing out on one free upgrade to a program is big news (its not, software is conceived and discontinued every day), then keep your eyes on the other scanners over the coming months/year(s) and see where they, and their customers end up, it will be interesting, one way or another ... :). " }-

This I addressed in my original post, which you still have not responded to, and I will point it out again. If TDS-3 was such a drain, you could have simply said that after this xx/xx/xx date, upgrades will not be free and DCS will more than likely have to start charging a subscription fee because of the overwhelming task this has become. Of course there were other options, but you and DCS chose not to explore them.

As for keeping an eye on other Anti-Trojan companies, this I will do because there is NO other choice now, is there Wayne?

-{ Quote: "So basically there were two options - you can have just one program for a short time (which is what some of you would prefer right now), or you can have lots of programs for many years to come (which is what all of you will eventually agree with in time). We've made the choice that we know some people may disagree with this year, but will make more and more sense as the years go on. All I'll say is you just watch our growth over the next couple of years, and keep an eye on the continued lack of growth by other anti-trojan developers, the same lack of growth we were experiencing due to our own scanner - they are just such an immense resource, the type where there is always work to be done, but the sales in a declining industry dont make enough to employ further analysts and programmers (expensive), and proof of that can be seen by how few anti-trojan analysts there are.

Business is not just about today, security isn't just about one program, and TDS isn't the be all and end all of security (you haven't even seen what we're releasing next!) - always consider the bigger picture. We're evolving with the times, and we're not afraid to make the big decisions if it will be beneficial to our customers, so I don't have any concerns at all today about this decision or the criticism from some TDS users because I'm too excited giving them our upcoming releases, as I know that if you liked TDS then you'll love what we've got coming up.

If you still have any questions or concerns about ANYTHING then please re-read the previous thread, and if that fails to answer your question then simply contact us at sales@diamondcs.com.au, we can't make it any easier than that.

Anyway that is all I have to say on this matter, we've moved on - for you. We wouldn't if it wasn't in your best interests, it's that simple.

Over and out and back to work,
Wayne" }-

No Wayne, business is not just about today, but really about tomorrow, and I firmly think you have ruined DCS' future by now creating such distrust. Again, as I said in my original post, you could have provided warning, like any professional would rightly do, but you did not. You did this on a Friday and then left folks to speculate as to they why and what they should now do the entire weekend- just like a politician does. You then came in this morning and basically told everyone again that you were reneging on contractual promises and closed the thread when the heat became too much for you. In fact, a poll asking specifically what people were going to do was closed, and you brought this to everyone’s attention shortly before closing the thread.

If by now you fully do not grasp what you have done, then let me explain it one more time- you dumped your flagship product (even if you do not consider it as such), without warning, and left your customers, who you claim to be so concerned with, dangling. You then tell us you will generously offer "free" licenses transfers, which no other company would do, for product we already have licenses for. You will have to pardon me a moment while a take the shawl from around my shoulders and gently wipe the tears from the corners of my eyes.

Yes Wayne, you and DCS may have moved on, and so have I, my customers, and many of your other clients.

Denny

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Denny,
I've replied to your email and again the same things that have already been said are being rehashed over and over so I'll just reply to a few of your comments.

-{ Quote: "Of course there were other options, but you and DCS chose not to explore them." }-
You don't know what options we had, you don't know what options we explored, nor do you understand the position we're in, financially, resource-wise or otherwise, so you are in no position to tell us what we did.

TDS is an extremely inexpensive program to purchase and many people have received over half a decade of free updates and even software upgrades, yet it's an incredibly expensive program to maintain, requiring fulltime daily analysis/database updates/engine improvements etc. I know this means nothing to some as all some of you want is my software for free, but the reality is software costs a lot of time and money to develop, especially scanner-style software, and I don't know many businesses which give anything away for free, yet that's what we're here arguing about. We've offered free upgrades to all of our programs over the years, this is the first time we've ever been unable to grant a free upgrade and that is simply due to product discontinuation - something which happens to software regularly, as newer and better software takes its place. We must evolve for the sake of our customers, those businesses which remain stagnant will not survive long. This will become crystal clear in no less than a couple of years.

-{ Quote: "As for keeping an eye on other Anti-Trojan companies, this I will do because there is NO other choice now, is there Wayne?" }-
If you believe that signature-based anti-trojan scanners is the future of security, sure.

Again, I know it's difficult for people to focus on the future because it's a lot easier to focus on what's here today, but if people want us to keep developing software (and our software is the reason why we're all here) then these decisions must be made. I'm sorry you don't understand that, but I'm not moved as it will be people like yourself who will ultimately benefit the most anyway, regardless of whether you can see that now.

We wouldn't make big decisions like this if it wasn't in our customers best interests, it's that simple. We're evolving with the times, some businesses choose not to.

Best regards,
Wayne

[--ntl--]

@dog

"Would there be an alternative motive here?"

Well ... tell me. Why is it better that TDS become AbandonWare instead of freeware?

[dog]

-{ Quote: "@dog

"Would there be an alternative motive here?"

Well ... tell me. Why is it better that TDS become AbandonWare instead of freeware?" }-I was taking a stab at who you might really be (a developer maybe :lurking: ) ... Would you do the same? ... If they released TDS /editor and all ... who might that really benefit?

[--ntl--]

@dog

If I were a developer I would certainly NOT ask for such a step. (By contrast, I would be happy that a competitor has been eliminated.)

Whether I would do it (if I were a developer) ... well I don't know. If there is no more money to make from TDS and there is no competition between TDS and future DCS products ... why not?

"If they released TDS /editor and all ... who might that really benefit?"

Possibly, the TDS userbase. Ever heard about Clam AV ( http://www.clamav.net/ )? It's also freeware.

Moreover, I did not they that DCS *must* release TDS as freeware. I simply said they should consider it.

(If you want to know who I am ... ask Wayne or Paul.)

[dog]

-{ Quote: "@dog

If I were a developer I would certainly NOT ask for such a step. (By contrast, I would be happy that a competitor has been eliminated.)" }- ...I would think there could be useful knowledge gained (for developers or malware writers) ... but what the true benefit would be I don't know.-{ Quote: "Whether I would do it (if I were a developer) ... well I don't know. If there is no more money to make from TDS and there is no competition between TDS and future DCS products ... why not?" }- I'd never say never ... but why end any chance of possibly benefiting from licensing the technology to someone else, once it's released into the public domain, you no longer have any control over it. I wouldn't release it if I had put that much time, effort and resources into it.-{ Quote: ""If they released TDS /editor and all ... who might that really benefit?"

Possibly, the TDS userbase. Ever heard about Clam AV ( http://www.clamav.net/ )? It's also freeware.

Moreover, I did not they that DCS *must* release TDS as freeware. I simply said they should consider it." }-Yes I have heard of Clam ... but from my 'newbie' prospective ... I don't think that would fly ... and it may easily benefit malware writers to change the code enough to let a known 'trojan' past current signatures. You'd know better than I ;) ... but isn't the TDS DB encrypted ... and if the editor was released wouldn't it allow access to it. -{ Quote: "(If you want to know who I am ... ask Wayne or Paul.)" }-Nah ... I'll stop guessing ... maybe one day you'll share, I'm just curious why it has to be such a mystery :lurking:

[Andreas1]

Hi all,
I've just now become aware of this and want at least to offer my opinion as well -- although it doesn't actually add anything new to the debate.

I can understand DCS's decision and I think it is a good decision to discontinue TDS -- good for the financial and workload situation as well as for the product suite of the company. And good for those who are open-minded enough to take advantage of the improvement -- when it's there.

I find it perfectly in order and sufficient to offer free licences, free licences for other persons or one form or another of refunding. Of course this somehow depends on the chances of getting the refunds when one decides that one would rather get them, on the timeframe that the purchase has had to be in, on the amount of money refunded, etc. but in general it's okay with me. (And IMHO it's maybe not very very very kind not to make DCS's policy on that explicit, but in order to motivate ppl to remain licenced customers, I agree that "contact us by mail and inquire about refund options" is a permissible way to go.)

Also I can understand that DCS don't want to promise anything about the software that's next-in-line. If they want to think about upgrade policy, discounts, bundle deals etc. when the software is finished, that's okay with me -- after all, you should be able to get a refund for your TDS3 purchase which you can save and then invest in the other program when it's ready. Okay, that would still allow for price differences and might leave the customer with additional cost to pay, but to discuss these would be *purely* speculative.

I imagine that if you're a developer working on an upgrade for your product, publicly saying that you'll give the update once it's ready for free to those who purchase your product right now -- this doesn't enforce you to keep developing the upgrade no matter what. Neither ethically nor legally I suppose. People who purchase your product as it is because of their anticipation of the upgrade get a refund when the development of the upgrade is abandoned. (And they get additional options here.)
Of course the fact that the upgrade has been announced for such a long time *could* mean that such a refund would apply to purchases from a long time ago as well...


OTOH, I find it somehow a bad move that there has been no prior announcement. Of course the best solution would have been to wait with abandonment until the new software along with its pricing policy is ready and announce the transition some months before. But even without a new product at hand, it would have been better to have some time to adapt to it. To do it like that is - IMHO - just not professional.

Also, I am a little uncertain as to what to think of "we can offer this only for a short time". I would imagine people would like that time to be extended at least until the new product is there, so they can decide to ask for a licence trade-in, for a refund or to pehaps pay some additional money to get the new one.


So that's three pros and two cons (if I count correctly) -- only the pros are a bit more on the technical and legal side, whereas the cons are on the customer relationships side.
I'm still with DCS but I can see that there are people upset (that was of course clear from the outset) and that has been made a mistake (from what I can tell) in communicating the transition.
Then a part of the angerness has some reason for it. (But I don't agree with much of the other reasons mentioned in this discussion.)


Just my 0.02
Andreas

P.S. I will of course keep TDS-3 installed. Heck, I even have TDS-2 installed. Not that I would use either of them frequently, but I like the idea of having them available at my fingertips.

P.P.S. Of course I am also fully pro-"make-TDS-OpenSource" ;D

[Infinity]

-{ Quote: "but I like the idea of having them available at my fingertips.

P.P.S. Of course I am also fully pro-"make-TDS-OpenSource" ;D" }-


Hi Andreas, I won't uninstall TDS-3 either. and opensource would be nice,

would give a better impression after this all, cause I do understand what everyone is saying here.

Take care

[Phant0m]

I think the honourable thing here would have been to sell TDS code, and have agreement setup for those who already had purchased TDS, or as Andreas1 has said make-TDS-OpenSource.

TDS is obviously a liked product, and been around for many years, so the above should have been applied, rather then to let pride get in the way (If I can’t maintain it, no one will!)

I suppose be much more money making if you cancel every licensed TDS user, discontinue TDS sales, wait, make some GUI changes, come out afterwards with a whole new Anti-Trojan product to be sold. ::)

[beetlejuice69]

-{ Quote: "I think the honourable thing here would have been to sell TDS code, and have agreement setup for those who already had purchased TDS, or as Andreas1 has said make-TDS-OpenSource.

TDS is obviously a liked product, and been around for many years, so the above should have been applied, rather then to let pride get in the way (If I can’t maintain it, no one will!)

I suppose be much more money making if you cancel every licensed TDS user, discontinue TDS sales, wait, make some GUI changes, come out afterwards with a whole new Anti-Trojan product to be sold. ::)" }-

Gee I wonder where we heard that one before. ;)

[Phant0m]

... lol

[Phant0m]

Ahaha, you had mentioned something similar, I didn’t know, I didn’t take the time to go through every single post here... I simply stating my opinions :)

[Peter2150]

Common guys give it a break. There is a real world here. Sure someone who just purchased TDS rightfully is upset. But when you say Wayne should have given prior warning that is nonsense.

Think about it. How many products and services give much if any warning. Okay so say they gave one month warning. What about the guy/girl who bought it 5 weeks ago. Some have griped about the fact it was done on Friday. So what. When I worked in industry and there were layoff's(I've been on both ends), there was rarely warning and it was always done on Friday. It really doesn't matter.

Make TDS opencode. a) first why give away how you do things, and b) as time goes on without updates the value of that will diminish.

Personally I think Wayne did the right thing. I have been concerned for some time that the whole TDS concept might be outdated, since the market, which is driven by the malware folks is having to move to the proactive approach rather than the reactive approach.

Will this "distrust" hurt DCS's future business. I don't think so. You might say today never again, but if and when DCS comes out with a new innovative whiz bang, that has an obvious benefit people will try it.

Compare DCS's and Wayne's track record as a whole with the big red and yellow boxes in terms of support and software quality. They would have done this in a heart beat and not offered any kind of compensation.

Finally for the track record, I hold one TDS-3 license I've had for almost 3 years, and a 2nd TDS-3 license, that I've had for about 2 months. I still am glad Wayne took this step.

Pete

[tutankamon]

Hi all, tut here, I have read most of the posts in the TDS3 discontinued thread, one or two members / guests seem to be giving Wayne and DCS a hard time over his decision. Don`t forget the FREE programs, stemming from the development of what was TDS4, plus the offer of free registrations for other DCS programs, not to mention a future `super duper` program from Wayne in the future, (perhaps those of us who already have purchased Wormguard and Port Explorer could qualify for a discount on this program? ) I am disappointed that TDS3 updates are finished, I am also disappointed that I did not win the National Lottery last Saturday, I am disappointed that it is always cloudy in the U.K. when I want to see the sky at night with my giant binoculars. BUT we have to live with disappointment. Let`s thank Wayne / DCS for what they have done for us, and look forward to the next generation of programs. :)
So thanks, Wayne!

[dog]

As it stands right now, current license holders would get a member discount based on purchases, check your member area to see the discount you are entitled to. That doesn't mean that, that current discount would continue with DCS new direction/products ... but I'd safely guess that it would.

Steve

[Acadia]

-{ Quote: "Compare DCS's and Wayne's track record as a whole with the big red and yellow boxes in terms of support and software quality.
Pete" }-
Bingo.

Acadia

[Phant0m]

People are disappointed to see TDS discontinued, everyone who uses that product has that right, and I don’t think there are many here who blame Wayne and the DCS team for this discussion, but they are simply disappointed to see their favourite software being discontinued.

Wayne and the DCS team has done the right thing, no question there, to follow their dreams and not run dry of food being placed on the tables, but I still think the manner which they had went about it was somewhat disappointing.

I suppose it could have been far worse, just count yea lucky stars for that. ;)

[DDCchik]

I don't think that some of you understand what Wayne is trying to say. The days of the scanning by definition and signature recognition are over and have been for a while. The decision to stop development of TDS must have been an awful one to make on personal level. I have read pages of anger and disaffection. Whatever DiamondCS's reasons were, they were technically based not money oriented.

Most of the vituperation I have read is about money. I run two high end 64 bit Windows computers and two slightly lower spec'ed on other operating systems. The cost of the operating system and protection software on the Windows machines exceeds the cost of the machines. Allow that I build my own machines in that. That is without any applications for actually using the machines. I pay for all the software that I use, unless it is genuinely free. I use Nod32 Network, Kerio, TDS, PG, PE, WG on both machines. You keep paying (I assume) for and using Windows and Office. Do you subject Microsoft to this level of spite? Try it!! All this security software is essential to protect Windows from attacks. Microsoft could do that.

When the early viruses and trojans were circulating, years ago, they were identified as they were found and recognition signatures were developed. On top of that removal tools were developed which were also viruses and trojans, by definition, to effect the removal. That used to work.

A massive and very wealthy antivirus industry developed on this model of recognition and detection which has been reinforced over the years by the fear induced in users by clever marketing and poor journalism. It works by recognising the threat and preventing action but only after the threat has been identified.

Years ago we had no rootkits for Windows in circulation.

Years ago we didn't have an entire ADS file system that Windows provides no way of seeing.

Years ago most viruses and trojans were provided to the 'security' industry for free by the voluntary developers who got their thrills by releasing the code and seeing what happened while they ate pizza and slayed Red Dragons or hacked into the local real estate agent's network.

The major opposition is now professional. They are commercial software development companies with commercial or criminal intent. Many are listed on the stock exchange. Many are operating over national boundaries and are protected from any sort of action from the few laws that do exist. The law that does exist was written for the situation that prevailed in the 'back-room geek' days. The major law enforcement effort is devoted to pirate music and movies NOT protection of computer users' machines.

To find, identify, issue updates and removal tools requires huge resources. Even those resources can't close the time gap between the release and installation of the malicious code and the development of the recognition and removal tools. This latency period can be several days or weeks. It can be hours for a simple virus but not for a well-coded trojan or rootkit. That can take weeks. It can take weeks for them to be found to work on.

Read through the HijackThis logs in any of the spyware forums. Over 95% have 3rd party security software installed, lots of it very expensive. It didn't work or was disabled by the infecting code or was overridden by the user. The Microsoft+Antivirus+firewall model of security is no longer going to protect any user.

Your antivirus or antitrojan software can provide a layer of protection against most threats from outside your system. They will not provide any protection from a threat they don't recognise, a threat already in your system or your own actions. They provide little protection from internal hacking and only some protection from external hacking.

On the current model of security software, a computer running Windows is going to be almost unusable in two years. By the time DEP, DRM and all the other extremely intrusive 'protection' software and hard-coded protective' firmware is running, a top end machine is going to be crippled. You may be better off with a 486-100 running Windows 3.11 - it will be faster and less prone to attack. It might BSOD occasionally. ::)

An alternate model has to be developed that responds to the real threats that are out there now and the potential threats that we don't know yet. While no-one is psychic, the writing has been on the wall for some time. Read it!!

An entirely new approach to protection has to be developed. It is gradually becoming available. It is being developed by small companies like DiamondCS and even amateur volunteers, not the giant, slow-moving, non-innovative security corporations with huge marketing budgets.

[richrf]

Hi Peter,

-{ Quote: "Will this "distrust" hurt DCS's future business. I don't think so. You might say today never again, but if and when DCS comes out with a new innovative whiz bang, that has an obvious benefit people will try it." }-

I really like DCS as a company. I can't help but like a group of guys who have helped me so much in the past. In this group I include Pilli and Jooske, who have been fabulous over the years.

However, I think that this incident, and the way, it was handled (before and after the announcement) will greatly hurt DCS in the very competitive, new IPS marketspace. It will be difficult enough to differentiate the products (ZA Pro, for example, already has lots of IPS in it), but competition will surely take advantage of the way DCS handled the termination of the TDS-3 product - i.e., suddenness of the announcment (left users high and dry), unfair treatment of new customers (from their perspective), etc. These are very strong "talking points", and there will be plenty of unhappy former TDS-3 users who will be there to attest their general unhappiness. One bad comment can overshadow ten good ones.

I think that the "bad taste" in people's mouths will last for some time. This will be the period of rapid growth of IPS products such as Online Armor, Safe 'N' Secure, PRevx, ZA 6, etc. Solid recommendations (as Online Armor is trying to put together) will certainly go a long way, particularly among users who are totally new to the market (currently only using standard AVs and ATs) and never heard of any of these products or vendors.

I believe that there is time for DCS to repair some of the damage, but as time goes on, so will old customers and they will never look back. I have been involved in the PC software business, in various capacities, since the early 80s, and have seen extremely large companies (do you remember Ashton-Tate?) implode because of poor customer relations.

It may turn out I am very wrong. But the risks of me being correct are quite substantial, and I very much hope that DCS finds a way to rectify the situation. I really like the guys and owe them alot.

Regards,
Rich

[Phant0m]

I agree, prevention is the way to go, but I don’t think it is ready for us to trash our Anti-Trojan systems and such just yet, and how about those who’s machines are currently infected? I guess discontinuing Anti-Trojan systems and such is putting across, ‘If you aren’t advanced to identify and remove infections, tuff luck, reformat and install windows and purchase prevention software and hope for the best.

Another disadvantage of no-signature usage is, threats that executes aren’t identified, or identified easily, I guess there be some disadvantages whatever the way. ;D

[Starrob]

I think most of what will determine how DCS will fate is taking place outside these forums. It is how each individual is treated one by one as they contact DCS to explore options.

A lot of people are angry by initial reaction. If Wayne/Gavin responds to their individual concerns in a way the end-user feels whole then they will be OK, if not then they will have problems. It is all in the percentages....if 5 0r 10% of the people walk away unhappy, then DCS will be in good shape because they might be able to win some malcontents back (although no matter what they do they will always have a few annoying pests
no matter what they do).

If however their dis-Satisfaction rate is like 50% or 60% then this company is going to have problems. No one knows how it will play out....this is something that will play out over the course of the next few weeks and months. People may indeed see the bigger picture as Wayne says within a month or two with the release of new products or things might go in such a way that inflame people's "conspiracy theories".

I don't think no one knows...that is why I am not going to comment on this any more. Also, I personally don't have a beef with DCS. If they put out a good product, I'll use it. I might look more critically at any "promises" or "claims" and I won't quite buy into the hype as much but if the "under the hood" part of the software takes care of a need of mine then I'll use them. If not, I won't.

Good luck to everyone, no matter what your situation.



Starrob

-{ Quote: "Hi Peter,



I really like DCS as a company. I can't help but like a group of guys who have helped me so much in the past. In this group I include Pilli and Jooske, who have been fabulous over the years.

However, I think that this incident, and the way, it was handled (before and after the announcement) will greatly hurt DCS in the very competitive, new IPS marketspace. It will be difficult enough to differentiate the products (ZA Pro, for example, already has lots of IPS in it), but competition will surely take advantage of the way DCS handled the termination of the TDS-3 product - i.e., suddenness of the announcment (left users high and dry), unfair treatment of new customers (from their perspective), etc. These are very strong "talking points", and there will be plenty of unhappy former TDS-3 users who will be there to attest their general unhappiness. One bad comment can overshadow ten good ones.

I think that the "bad taste" in people's mouths will last for some time. This will be the period of rapid growth of IPS products such as Online Armor, Safe 'N' Secure, PRevx, ZA 6, etc. Solid recommendations (as Online Armor is trying to put together) will certainly go a long way, particularly among users who are totally new to the market (currently only using standard AVs and ATs) and never heard of any of these products or vendors.

I believe that there is time for DCS to repair some of the damage, but as time goes on, so will old customers and they will never look back. I have been involved in the PC software business, in various capacities, since the early 80s, and have seen extremely large companies (do you remember Ashton-Tate) implode because of poor customer relations.

It may turn out I am very wrong. But the risks of me being correct are quite substantial, and I very much hope that DCS finds a way to rectify the situation. I really like the guys and owe them alot.

Regards,
Rich" }-

[dog]

-{ Quote: "I believe that there is time for DCS to repair some of the damage, but as time goes on, so will old customers and they will never look back. I have been involved in the PC software business, in various capacities, since the early 80s, and have seen extremely large companies (do you remember Ashton-Tate) implode because of poor customer relations. " }- Truly I think people are over-reacting ... How exactly does one decision erase the great track record DCS has in terms of customer service over the years? It takes time and repeated abuses to cause any significant damage ... folks are venting their frustration/disappointment and nothing more. Eventually people will see the light, like many us already do. The fact is that they produce excellent products and deliver great support - which is all we really want.

Life's tough and filled with tough decisions, we all face them. Put yourself in DCS shoes for a minute ... Would you have the guts to make a decision like this? Leaders lead, plan and simple. It takes courage to make a big change of course like this and not follow the sheep, whether it's over a cliff or in into a beautiful sunset. The DCS company are leaders in their field, they were when they began and they continue to be today, as they lead us to this revolution/evolution. I'm sure the other sheep will eventually follow, because to me this is the right course. It is where it's at, or where it will be shortly. I think DCS greatest strength is it's innovation. They continue to display these traits with this change in direction. I'll be there along the way - Why would anyone abandon ship because one product is discontinued? - When we will benefit from the development of new products and enhancements of current offerings. I personally see a great future for DCS ... I hope in a couple of years, Wayne and Gavin have the opportunity to say "See ... we were right" to all the naysayers.

Being that we as a group are all so security conscience, how can we not be behind this move? Rich, you for one, always use the term 'pro-active' protection ... isn't this the new world? Isn't this where we want to go? We should encourage DCS and be supportive, respect and admire their guts. People are too emotional, think with your head not with your heart ... We are all a little sad to see TDS go, and I'm sure no one more than Wayne (it was his little baby) ... but do we really wish to just maintain the status quo in protection, while malware grows in leaps and bounds? I don't think so. ;)

Lead on Wayne ;)

Regards,

Steve

[ellison64]

I think recent buyers have the right to over react in dcs desicion and the way they have been treated.Which ever way its glossed over ,the lack of prewarning about tds3 future ,and allowing people to buy it on false hopes and promises is rather shallow.If the desicion to discontinue WAS made on the spur of the moment(which is hard to swallow), the termination of updates should still have been held back at least for a few more months ,and also the website should have been altered to explain what was happening so that no other unsuspecting buyer was going to be bitterly disappointed.I just wonder what all those that think its no big deal would say if every other developer behaved the same way....there would be chaos.I dont think most users have an issue with the desision to stop development of tds3 ,thats dcs perogative, but the way in which it was done is (imo) very amateurish and with very little forthought for the customer ,and certainly not the way which Wayne would have us believe.
ellison

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: "Truly I think people are over-reacting " }-
Steve,

I, and with me a whole bunch of others, are thinking something else.

I have TDS licensed from almost the first day it exists, I'm always very well treated by DCS all those long, long years untill today.

But to say the people are over-reacting: that's too simple.

[tuatara]

Perhaps, we must start a new thread about when the first new DCS prog
will be released, it would be nice if DCS could give us a date when this is expected.

(This is a joke of course).

I think they made the right decision, this is the only way to make an even better product for them.
And of course DCS has already decided on what they are (going) to work, otherwise they would not made this decision.

I think that the time for AT-only's is history, and complete malware prevention is going to be hot.

DCS has always made best-of-the-best products,
so i am going to wait, when i can buy the next product.

No hard feelings here.

But of course i am very old, and have seen more tough decisions made.
And have seen what the results will be.

If there is something negative to say, i don't hasitate to post something about that, but in the end, you'll see, this is a positive decision for us, (their customers).

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "I think they made the right decision, " }-

There appears to me that lots of decisions were made, not just one:

1) To shut down all development and support for TDS-3.
2) To shut down all development of TDS-4.
3) To stop all updates immediately and without any warning (lots of users depend upon TDS-3).
4) To immeidately cease operation of the update database.
5) Not offer any refunds to new customers, some of whom may have had the product for a very short period of time.
6) To offer a customer a limited set of products, which may or may not be desirable from a customers point of view, and in some cases these products were already owned by the customer.
7) Not to offer a discount on future product which apparently is going to use TDS-4 technology (I believe that this is what was stated by DCS).
8 ) To create a new product out of existing TDS-4 technology.

There were probably others. So, in order to have a conversation, we have to agree on what we are talking about. I am sure there are customers that can take a position on either side of the above decisions.

Cya,
Rich

[tuatara]

Hi Richf,

First of all, understand that English is not my first language,
so i have to translate this all..

When i wrote this i refered to ending TDS-3 and the development of TDS-4,
as i wrote in previous posts, i really think that adding > 100 items to a TrojanDatabase A day NOW (perhaps 1000 a day in a year) is not
a way to handle this problem.

And to be honest, the last year, (as i also wrote before) the AV's could find Trojans faster (they do not only depend on on-demand) and find more.

So TDS-3 did not help me the last years, on my pc for cleaning up trojans.
but NOD32 and Kaspersky did.

But about the other things you've mentioned, i meself am not very happy
with the fact that bought licenses for ALL the DCS progs and can now
get a 2nd Port Explorer or Process Guard to put it in a drawer.

And i can see no reason at all, why you could not get a let's say a ONE_TIME_ONLY $ 20 Discount in their members area?
----------------------------------------------------

And i simply find it logical that customers that bought a license this year
or (less then a year ago) must get a refund.

But the decision to stop the TDS product line (i've mentioned it when
Jason left DCS) is logical, it just was not something that could continue.

And of course you can't say that you will stop TDS over 6 months or so.
That is not possible, that doesn't work that way.

A few months ago, i made a post that i found it strange that TDS-3
and WormGuard where not available for resellers.
And asked why this was the case, i think i'll know by now.
It was as i expected/predicted.

Wormguard will be replaced by another product (i guess/expect) soon.

The only way to create antimalware progs without maintaining a large database is creating software that PREVENTS malware.

Another thing is that i think that there is only a market for
complete prevetion suites in the near feature.

This nis of course what Microsoft and a lot of others are also working on.

DCS has the knowledge an technology to create this kind of software,
and now they also have the time.

So i think they made a good decision to stop the TDS-line
but i have said nothing in the previous post about
how they handled / took care to inform in solve the problems now created
for their customers.

I for one am very happy that i did not advise my largest/mot important customers to use TDS-3 the last 10 months or so ...

[Kentish]

I have no problems with the actions of DCS, I feel they have done what they need to do to survive and go forward. Yes its always upsetting when a loved one/pet dies, but life goes on..it has too. If DCS feel the time has changed to let TDS slip, and move onto a new approach then so be it. The program itself was peanuts to buy when compared to the programs the major security software houses of the World produce, so lets move on.

Personally I have full faith in DCS, and their quality programs they produce at very reasonable prices.

Kentish

[- wiz -]

Sad that there will be no TDS-4... and even more sad that there won't be any longer updates for TDS-3. I really liked it. :)

But what worries me more is what will happen with the malware database that is behind all those signatures? I bet in that database is plenty of malware that isn't detected by other scanners.

Therefore I kindly ask you to submit the malware database to some of AV vendors, e.g. Kaspersky or Eset. I think that would be a wise decision to protect the community.

- wiz -

[Bubba]

-{ Quote: "But what worries me more is what will happen with the malware database that is behind all those signatures?" }-Assuming gets me in trouble sometimes....but one would assume Wayne and thu Gang will be using that info for the up and coming programs Wayne mentioned in the TDS software line discontinued thread.

[richrf]

Hi tuatara,

Yes, I believe many current users understand DCS's decision to move on an concentrate on HIPS type software - particularly with the marketplace beginning to heat up with many new competitors. What there seems to be lots of disagreements about are the other decisions that DCS made. From your message, it appears that you understand these grievances. I certainly do.

Regards,
Rich

[Infinity]

got home, made myself comfortable and I see this is still going on...

wtf...


let's see forward and then make any conclusions...

just my 0.000099

[muf]

I'd just like to say that i find it very hard to believe that scanners will be become obsolete. You really believe that there can be a 100% proactive prevention? So what if something gets through. What's going to help? What's going to detect and clean it? I totally agree that proactive is the way forward. But i can't help but be skeptical that there is no such thing as the perfect prevention. There will always be a scanner of some kind that cleans up what got through. Am i wrong? Or is there really the holy grail of security software just around the corner. Something that stops every new malicious piece of code? Sorry, but i just can't help but not believe it's possible. The baddies always seem to find a way...

muf

[Bubba]

-{ Quote: "So, in order to have a conversation, we have to agree on what we are talking about" }-Let's be sure and correct the below important decision you mentioned before starting this conversation.

"5) Not offer any refunds to new customers, some of whom may have had the product for a very short period of time."

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=516796&postcount=244
-{ Quote: "Even if you recently purchased TDS3 you're still entitled to a free license to your choice of Port Explorer or ProcessGuard (and still retain your TDS3 license which remains valid), however if you're not happy with that then simply email sales@diamondcs.com.au so we can discuss refund options" }-

[Starrob]

Most likely anything with the ability to get through some of the more advanced proactive prevention would also elude the small time operation scanners too.

A big operation like Kaspersky might be able to keep up for a unspecified period of time because they have the resources to hire more people as malware analysts but as time goes on the smaller operators are going to miss more and more malware.

The death of the small time operators scanner is near because it will soon reach a point that the scanner will miss so much that it will become worthless.

I think even KAV is starting to move away from strictly having definitions. They are developing their own heuristics and behavior based software. If even KAV realizes they can't rely on exclusively signatures, how in the world are smaller players going to keep up?

Within several years many scanners might be missing so much that they are virtually useless. I think other solutions must be developed.....even beyond HIPS software. We shall see........


Starrob



-{ Quote: "I'd just like to say that i find it very hard to believe that scanners will be become obsolete. You really believe that there can be a 100% proactive prevention? So what if something gets through. What's going to help? What's going to detect and clean it? I totally agree that proactive is the way forward. But i can't help but be skeptical that there is no such thing as the perfect prevention. There will always be a scanner of some kind that cleans up what got through. Am i wrong? Or is there really the holy grail of security software just around the corner. Something that stops every new malicious piece of code? Sorry, but i just can't help but not believe it's possible. The baddies always seem to find a way...

muf" }-

[muf]

As i said, i totally agree that proactive is the way forward. But if something does get through and your pc was acting suspiciously like it is infected then if there are no scanners left alive then how do we get clean? Format and reinstall the OS? I'm looking forward to proactive protection but can't get my head around the thought that they'll be no-one to help us if we ever do get infected. Looks like the future of software security is going to be the following:
1. Proactive software.
2. Hard drive backup software.
3. Spare hard drive to back up to.
4. System startup disk to perform a format.

Does that sound about right?

muf

[Starrob]

I think we would have to be Nostradamus to know exactly what will happen. Everything is speculation. Pro-Active software is all the rage these days.....next year it maybe a different solution or maybe even someone will invent some type of solution to make scanners viable again. Sometimes people invent stuff that others say is impossible.....so maybe scanners do have a place in the future....I don't think anyone knows for 100% sure.


Starrob



-{ Quote: "As i said, i totally agree that proactive is the way forward. But if something does get through and your pc was acting suspiciously like it is infected then if there are no scanners left alive then how do we get clean? Format and reinstall the OS? I'm looking forward to proactive protection but can't get my head around the thought that they'll be no-one to help us if we ever do get infected. Looks like the future of software security is going to be the following:
1. Proactive software.
2. Hard drive backup software.
3. Spare hard drive to back up to.
4. System startup disk to perform a format.

Does that sound about right?

muf" }-

[sick0]

-{ Quote: "But when you say Wayne should have given prior warning that is nonsense.
Pete" }-

so am i correct to assume that it is OKAY with you that he just abruptly ends TDS-3?

i understand Wayne's decision why he needed to discontinue TDS-3 but the way he did it is very unprofessional... he should have issued at least a months notice before ending it and continue to update it for at least xx amount of time...

issuing a forewarning is easier than issuing a refund for those who bought recently...

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "Pro-Active software is all the rage these days.....next year it maybe a different solution or maybe even someone will invent some type of solution to make scanners viable again. Sometimes people invent stuff that others say is impossible.....so maybe scanners do have a place in the future....I don't think anyone knows for 100% sure." }-Starrob,

See the image below. It's is semi-logarithmic plot of primaries in the TDS database against time over the past few years. The data was pulled doing a quick forum search here. Look at the trends, they are stable and rather alarming if you look to pure scanner technology as a solution.

The doubling time prior to Sept 2004 (that's where the break is located) was 15.8 months. That has shortened to 8.8 months since Sept 2004. Remember, that is geometric growth, not linear growth. Do the math, something has to give. To me the only question is whether there will be additional accellerations, whether it will be stable, or (all odds are against this) the rate will decline.

To me the major surprises were: The raw magnitude of the growth rate.
The apparent stability of the trends
The significant accelleration that occurred rather recently (Sept 2004 was not too long ago)
The current absolute growth rate ~ 2000/month

Regardless of your take on the ultimate meaning of these trends, they are derived from objective historical data. They provide an objective snapshot of the current circumstance.

Blue

[richrf]

Hi Bubba,

Yes, you are correct. DCS offered an exchange or a "discussion of a refund".

Rich

[Snook]

All good things do come to an end...:) Nothing lasts forever...

[Annoyed]

Someone wrote: "got home, made myself comfortable and I see this is still going on...
wtf...
let's see forward and then make any conclusions..."

Just what does "WTF" mean?? ... Yea, it's still going on. I don't have all this wonderful history with this guy and his company that others here do. I'm a recent purchaser and I've been looking at these boards for a month or so now. Quite frankly, I find the nonchalant dismissal of any hint of an idea that maybe things weren't done in quite the right way as outrageous. This Wayne guy's reaction after the weekend still shocks me. To just walk away like that. The whole attitude like nothing's amiss. And the clever debating-like tactics - he can't provide a future discount because he already promised TDS4 and that didn't work out, etc.. This is just too much.

One conclusion can already be made - Mr DiamondCS has been arrogant and unaccomodating up to this point. I expected once he came back from the weekend there would be some give. Not this stonewall arrogance. There's not even a hint of apology in his tone.

One example of his bizarre reactions: " ... some of you are so far off the mark as well, ie. claiming that we've been bought out by a third party? That is an unsubstantiated claim that you've just thought up out of nowhere, it is completely wrong, and you're misleading every other fellow member of this forum by making such claims." The people indulging in that speculation were on HIS SIDE trying to account for his strange actions. Good grief.

[Acadia]

-{ Quote: "Just what does "WTF" mean?? " }-
You don't want to know. :-\

Acadia

[Rmus]

-{ Quote: "Just what does "WTF" mean??" }-It's an abbreviation for a vulgar phrase, used by people with limited vocabulary
and little other means of expressing themselves.

-rich
________________
~~Be ALERT!!! ~~

[StevieO]

I have noticed how intense the Malware in All it's different guises has become over the last 12 - 6 months.

I note what Kevin from BOClean has stated, along with Wayne about the major increase and headaches poised by this situation.

Whatever people think of Wayne/DCS there can be NO denying what a burden this must have been for him, and continues to be for the other AT vendors.

I don't no how many people work for a2, but they seem to putting out a lot of Updates lately, including in the last hour with 499 sigs ! Makes me wonder just how they manage to stay on the ball. And let's not forget they provide a2 in a Freeware flavour too, which i gratefully use.


StevieO

[EWT]

Wayne,

Read all of this, don't just label it as I-rate customer and dismiss it.

No doubt you thought of all the possible reactions of your customers after your TDS news was to be released last Friday. And you brobably weighed out many possibilities of what course to take in trying to do right and keep customers. Some of your ideas were perhaps better for your customers, and some ideas better for you. I guess the most shocking thing is how your customers perceive you at this point. It seems to me that your logic may have gone something like this:

1. If DCS just gives our TDS customers the new up-coming product, there will be no profit and no hope of proffiting from the TDS customers with the new release.

2. If DCS doesn't give them the new product, many (maybe most) will be disgruntled customers and choose not to do business with DCS again.

Either way, DCS is not going to profit optimaly from past TDS customers on a give-away or a turn-away solution (and forget the PG/PE offer; you now know that is practically an insult to 90% of TDS owners).

So now, what I am going to suggest is certainly not going to please everyone, but for some people, nothing you do will. Why not put on your marketing cap and turn this into a win-win situation?

Do you want to retain as many of your TDS customers as possible? Go half way with them. Offer them two licensed copies of the new up-coming product for the price of one! Tell them if they want, they can either give or sell the second copy to a friend, a family member or business associate in order to re-coop the purchase price. Or they can install the second copy on that 2nd computer we all have or on the laptop. In the mean time, you keep more of your TDS customers (that you are now losing fast), you will gain new customers, and you will stand to profit a lot more than the current way you are handling things (I can promise you I am not going to buy any more DCS products simply based on the agreement you breeched)! But if the agreement is met in some other way, like a 2-for-1, maybe I and others will view it as an attempt on your part to go the extra mile to keep your customers happy.

Like I said, its not going to please everyone, but its better for both you and us than what you are currently offering.

Emery Tuttle
Licesned owner TDS, PE, PG & WG since Feb '05

[worldcitizen]

-{ Quote: "I'd just like to say that i find it very hard to believe that scanners will be become obsolete. You really believe that there can be a 100% proactive prevention? So what if something gets through. What's going to help? What's going to detect and clean it? I totally agree that proactive is the way forward. But i can't help but be skeptical that there is no such thing as the perfect prevention. There will always be a scanner of some kind that cleans up what got through. Am i wrong? Or is there really the holy grail of security software just around the corner. Something that stops every new malicious piece of code? Sorry, but i just can't help but not believe it's possible. The baddies always seem to find a way...

muf" }-

My understanding is that Wayne was more or less saying that there will be enough scanners around that can do an equally good job as TDS 3 did so there's no point in continuing to waste resources on it when bigger companies can do that. I think there'll be a need for scanners for some time to come because if we get infected we need some removal tools with scanners. Nobody wants to reformat their hard drive.

However,with so many companies able to handle trojans now very well TDS 3 is no longer needed and DCS can release next generation software to 'keep it ahead' of the rest like it has always been. If you notice, DCS is always a step ahead of the rest in security, but the rest has caught up with DCS with regards to TDS 3 so they are dropping TDS 3 and will probably release something to make all security companies envious. Just when they think DCS has gone away they might find that the new software puts DCS in the front again and the rest have to play catch-up.

Dave

[Defenestration]

-{ Quote: "Go half way with them. Offer them two licensed copies of the new up-coming product for the price of one!" }-
Since there will apprently be more than one product emerging from the TDS-4 technology, another solution would be to give a free licence for one of the new products. This would go someway to improving peoples opinion of DCS, and if the other products are as good as DCS say they are, many people will probably also purchase them as well.

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

http://tds.diamondcs.com.au has been updated to provide a better explanation for people.

Best regards,
Wayne

[Andreas1]

Re-reading the thread I noticed that my previous post probably sounded more negative than I feel. I was trying to be as objective as possible and list what I perceive as good and bad aspects of the things that have happened and of the way in which they happened.

(I wasn't saying DCS should make TDS OSS, but if they chose to, I would certainly find it a nice move, that's all.
Also, I wasn't saying that a prior announcement is what most other companies usually do, nor that it is what was in any form required by DCS. I was just expressing my feeling that *if* there had been such an announcement, that *would have* been a better way to communicate this -- otherwise agreed-on -- decision.)



But now here's what I've completely forgotten to account for:

-{ Quote: "maybe I and others will view it as an attempt on your part to go the extra mile to keep your customers happy." }-

I have always experienced Wayne, Gavin and Jason when he was with DCS (and now as well, to be clear on that point) as people who almost always go such extra mile!
I do appreciate very much all the talk I've had with them and with the other people supporting their software on this forum and at other places. I honestly don't know any other developers that are so responsive and help users to learn a lot for themselves -- not only about the actual software in question, but also about more general aspects of (safe) computing or programming.

Thus, other issues aside, I don't have the slightest doubt in Wayne's commitment to his customers. I very much doubt that DCS's presence in the forum in the last time has come down to shouting/closing down tds4 inquirers, as one of the previous posters somewhere would have it, but even if it did, in order for that to be caused by something else than the desire to be able to present a real excellent piece of software to his customers, it would have to go along with a radical change in character, as I've come to know Wayne and Gavin.

So you might say that's just hyping "that Wayne guy" and you have come to have another impression. Then that's okay, I cannot do much about it, nor do I want to. I just want to express my continuing confidence in DCS, inspite of anything possibly handled better than it actually was, and that this confidence is based not only on the excellence of their software, but also on a (my, that is) long history of dialogue, support and cooperation of sorts.


Wayne and DCS - Keep it up!

[Starrob]

I do listen to what you say Andreas1 when it comes to the technical aspects of the software.

When it comes to DCS, though, I want to see less "hype" and more action. TDS-4 was a program that was over-hyped for years and as far as I am concerned that is the root cause of all these threads with all these complaints.

So, less "I am going to come out with greatest software to ever hit the market" and more action. There are some competitors as far as I am concerned that putting out lots of action and very little talk.

There is one that even has a online AT scanner now (and they said it couldn't be done) I want to see hard, concrete ACTION. Products in reality not in vapor....then we can talk about actual things instead of theoretical. We can talk about how much the product helps my security instead of how much we Love/Hate the developers.



Starrob

[worldcitizen]

I think a recent thread 'Is TDS 4 a Priority for You' or something like that was what got DCS really serious about discontinuing the program because so many users including myself had stated that they relied on their AV to intercept trojans and wondered how DCS were going to come up with something better and they couldn't because the AT market has trojans very well covered and that was the 1st topic in Wayne's list from the link above.

I even only had TDS 3 as a backup but because Kaspersky was so good I was wondering what need I would really have for a TDS 4 as so many members admitted. This drove home to them that TDS 4 is simply not worth the time, money and trouble especially when there are other applications that can do as good if not better job. So being no need for it they discontinued it and rightfully which frees up time and resources to create other software.

The only major issue was the 'free upgrade' promised and that is mainly what is the problem at present. For some, an extra license is no good so they will want to be compensated for somehow.

Dave

[Starrob]

-{ Quote: "
The only major issue was the 'free upgrade' promised and that is mainly what is the problem at present. For some, an extra license is no good so they will want to be compensated for somehow.

Dave" }-

Right over-promise and under-deliver. Over-hype and under-deliver.

I would prefer less hype, less promises and more actual software. I would prefer the under-promise and over-deliver. No hype....just putting out quality products with good DOCUMENTATION about the software saying what it can do and can't do.



Starrob

[---]

I find it curious that Wayne supporters are trying to defend him by appealing to technical arguments that maintaining a signature based scanner is too expensive.

That may or may not be so, but the reason people are pissed off is not because they dispute that trojan scanners are hard to maintain, but because of the following

* False advertising - Lots of people bought TDS-3 because they were told that they would get a free upgrade to TDS-4. It was also stated on the website

* Timing - Diamond CS continued to sell the product but to the day of the shock announcement. Also Discontinuing the product line is fine, but to do it with no warning at all? Shouldn't they have at least gave a warning say 3 months before? Or 1 month?

Not everyone owns a dozen copies of Antitrojans like most people here. What about the people who rely only on TDS-3 ? They are suddenly left high and dry without any reliable protection at all.

I find it hard to credit the "We care for our customer" lines, if Diamond CS can suddenly decide to give up immdediately without any advance warning.

An employee that suddenly quits by not turning up for work one day, is a highly unrealiable one and should never be trusted again.

Diamond CS, similarly is an unreliable company.

* Compensation - As mentioned several times, the most loyal customers are the ones who gets screwed.

As always there are people who will always support Wayne no matter what happens. These include the moderators, beta testers etc.

But from the POV of a man in the street, the decisions they have made simply stink. It's not the decision to discontinue TDS-3 that was wrong, but the way they went about it.

[Atomas31]

-{ Quote: "http://tds.diamondcs.com.au has been updated to provide a better explanation for people.

Best regards,
Wayne" }-

Well, I read what was writting on the reference you give us and it still the same Bla! Bla! than before and you still doesn't understand what we are telling you!!!

For your information, it is not the decision to discontinue TDS the problem but the way you handled the situation and the offer you presented to your customer, who for the majority already own PG and PE...

I, in the same optic of what EWT have said, would prefer something like 50 or 60% discount on one of your new product than a second licence of PG or PE that will serve me for nothing... In wich langage must we tell you that??? I can tell you in French, maybe you understand better French???

Best regards,
Atomas31

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Please note that we won't be responding to any posts made by anonymous posters as we've seen that feature of the forum abused far too often in the past by people simply wanting to cause trouble yet are too afraid to reveal their true identity as they know they're in the wrong by being immature and causing mischief. Also in regards to this comment:
-{ Quote: "Lots of people bought TDS-3 because they were told that they would get a free upgrade to TDS-4." }-
Nobody buys a program because of a free bonus offer for an as-yet-unreleased program, they buy the program for the program, so please tell us all what your motive is for these comments, and why are you ashamed of having your real identity known here?

Atomas,
-{ Quote: "in the same optic of what EWT have said, would prefer something like 50 or 60% discount on one of your new product" }-
Again, offering free/discount/etc licenses to products we haven't released yet is one of the things we have been criticised for in this thread. We've offered free updates and upgrades since the mid 90s, this is the first time we've ever been unable to complete an offer due to the discontinuation of a software line, but due to the criticism we've received here for being unable to offer a free upgrade to TDS4 we've decided not to offer free licenses to unreleased software, as we don't want upset customers in the unlikely event that the program is to be discontinued.

Best regards,
Wayne

[floatingPast]

on balance the replies have been more damaging than simple silence

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

I rest my case about anonymous posters. Feel free to believe anything that any registered poster here has said whether it's negative or positive (we've already seen a lot of good passionate responses from both camps), but anonymous posters at forums often have alterior motives. History speaks for itself, but again it's entirely up to you what you make of their posts.

[kwesi]

Just to put my threepenn'orth in. I'm going to go out on a limb, and surmise that if, in all of the posts on this topic that there are on these noticeboards, there is still not even the slightest hint that DCS might try to sweeten this (evidently-bitter) pill by offering refunds, or discounts on new products yet, that perhaps that is to do with commercial realities.

I can understand people's frustrations, but if at all possible, a little patience may well be in order here, as the various reasonable suggestions on this issue have no doubt been noted. I can definitely see how making a hostage to fortune by making some widespread commitment too early, could (literally) be suicide in business terms.

[Atomas31]

-{ Quote: "Again, offering free/discount/etc licenses to products we haven't released yet is one of the things we have been criticised for in this thread. We've offered free updates and upgrades since the mid 90s, this is the first time we've ever been unable to complete an offer due to the discontinuation of a software line, but due to the criticism we've received here for being unable to offer a free upgrade to TDS4 we've decided not to offer free licenses to unreleased software, as we don't want upset customers in the unlikely event that the program is to be discontinued." }-

So, if I am understand you well you don't want to offer anything in regard of your next products and that, until those products are outhere, is that it?

If so, then my question is : If and when your new products comes out, would you consider to offer free/discount/etc licenses to your new products and that to customer, like myself, who already have PG and PE and have no interest in having those software in double?

Best regards,
Atomas31

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Atomas, yes, when we release new products - but not before, then we'll make decisions in regards to licenses, but as people have been critical about our offering of free licenses to unreleased software, and as we do listen to them, we won't be doing that anymore as we don't want unhappy customers in the unlikely event that we're unable to release that program.

-{ Quote: "If so, then my question is : If and when your new products comes out" }-
We can't address that until the new product(s) are released, for the aforementioned reason.

Best regards,
Wayne

[Atomas31]

Thanks' for your answers Wayne,

Now, when does your new products suppossed to come out? :-)

And please, don't answer me something like : "When it is gonna be ready" since, in this period of crisis, time is a luxury you don't have anymore...

Best regards,
Atomas31

[---]

-{ Quote: "Please note that we won't be responding to any posts made by anonymous posters as we've seen that feature of the forum abused far too often in the past by people simply wanting to cause trouble yet are too afraid to reveal their true identity as they know they're in the wrong by being immature and causing mischief. Also in regards to this comment:


" }-

Wayne, ad hominem attacks are simply uncalled for. I have reviewed the thread, and my remarks are mild compared to some of the attacks leveled by some other registered members.

One might think you are simply attacking my guest status just to avoid answering.

-{ Quote: "
Nobody buys a program because of a free bonus offer for an as-yet-unreleased program, they buy the program for the program, so please tell us all what your motive is for these comments," }-

If nobody buys a program for a bonus offer, why advertise it? A contractual offer was made, and it was broken. Simple as that.

As for motivation? I'm just stating my opinion same as everyone else. You don't have to answer.

Hmm in the words of one of the **registered*** members time to sit back and eat my popcorn to watch the show...

[Starrob]

-{ Quote: "

Hmm in the words of one of the **registered*** members time to sit back and eat my popcorn to watch the show..." }-


LOL.....except I am getting bored with this.....Right now I got CNBC on.....time to buy some stocks and make myself some money instead of worrying about how others are running their business.



Starrob

[jmschwartz]

Starrob . . .

Any hot tips? I'm getting killed with LEG ;D

Regards,

[ellison64]

Wayne said...
"Nobody buys a program because of a free bonus offer for an as-yet-unreleased program...."


I bought agnitum outpost when it was still beta to recieve the lifetime upgrade .I dint actually buy it for how good the programe was at that point but for what it might become.I guessed it would get better ,and it did ...agnitum is still honouring thier desision.Lots of people also fall into the advertising trap of supermarkets (including myself) " buy one..get one free".Usually the buyer doesnt really want the item but the offer of another one for free usually settles it.It seems to me that tds3 and the hype of tds4 and the free upgrade to it , is normal marketing hype for which you AND DIAMOND CS are probably well aware.
ellison

[Antarctica]

-{ Quote: "
"Nobody buys a program because of a free bonus offer"

Best regards,
Wayne" }-

Hello Wayne,

I am sorry to tell you are wrong! In december 2004 I was undecided to buy TDS-3 and I was told by many member and moderator: Go ahead, you will be untitle anyway to a free upgrade to TDS-4 in a couple of weeks. :( (Of course, they didn't know at the time)

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=58369

THIS IS THO ONLY REASON I BOUGHT TDS-3. ???

It is you and nobody else that made that offer... 8)

[beetlejuice69]

-{ Quote: "Hello Wayne,

I am sorry to tell you are wrong! In december 2004 I was undecided to buy TDS-3 and I was told by many member and moderator: Go ahead, you will be untitle anyway to a free upgrade to TDS-4 in a couple of weeks. :(

THIS IS THO ONLY REASON I BOUGHT TDS-3. ???

It is you and nobody else that made that offer... 8)" }-

That`s the same time I bought mine and the same reason for the purchase.

[Jooske]

Sorry to help you to the best software i thought to help you with cleansing and protecting your system by then and the best advice not knowing better nor did DiamondCS at that time themselves things would change that dramatically. At least your systems were secure and kept rather clean seeing the support needs after that.
In the other thread i adviced and still do wait and see what the possible products and offers will be in future.

Back to work Wayne and cie, we're waiting for the new goodies! Thanks in advance.

[Antarctica]

-{ Quote: "Sorry to help you to the best software i thought to help you with cleansing and protecting your system by then and the best advice not knowing better nor did DiamondCS at that time themselves things would change that dramatically. At least your systems were secure and kept rather clean seeing the support needs after that.
In the other thread i adviced and still do wait and see what the possible products and offers will be in future.

Back to work Wayne and cie, we're waiting for the new goodies! Thanks in advance." }-

Jooske,
I have nothing against your advice or other member advice. :) I'm just saying Wayne is wrong saying nobody buys a program because of a free bonus. ;D

[Infinity]

:) LMAO patience ....


OT a little bit: @ majorgeeks there was a mention of PG ... I thought OK.. the new one is ready ...

it wasn't :D

[Carver]

-{ Quote: "That`s the same time I bought mine and the same reason for the purchase." }-

I trialed TDS-3 in october of 2004, I read in the forum that TDS-4 was just around the corner. Every time some one asked well how near is it to completion The were told shut up and the thread closed. Then there was DCSs posted free upgrade. I wanted to purchase TDS-4 when it was released. I got tired of waiting, so I purchased TDS-3 on 6-9-2005. With the thought in mind that I would get a free upgrade to TDS-4 when it was released. Then on July 25 I read that the TDS line was canceled with no notice. I thought the TDS line was their flagship product. Then theres the matter of wayne's attitude.

[Dieter Bressem]

Do you remember this guy ???


~snip....image removed.....Bubba~


"I assure you. TDS-4 is no vaporware. It is "around the corner"
and will be released "soon"

[Notok]

Wayne's right.. if he DID offer new licenses for the upcoming product, everyone would be just as upset, but yelling about how TDS-4 never came around so the new one won't either, etc. I think it really is time to chill out for a little while and see how things develop. We simply don't have enough info on anything to really make any judgement calls. Only time will tell.

[Peter2150]

REALITY

Reality isn't the way we want things to be.
Reality isn't the way things ought to be.
Reality is in fact the way things are.

Reality. Wayne of DCS has made a decision regarding his business for the reason's stated. He also plainly stated what he will do to compensate recent buyers.


Some understand and welcome the decision so DCS can move on.
Some don't like the decision period.
Some understand but don't like the way it was handled.
Some think it will hurt DCS in the long run.
Some don't think it will hurt DCS in the long run.
Some will continue to buy and support DCS products.
Some may never buy another DCS product.


The decision is made, the deed is done. No matter how much one thinks that something different were done, or should have been done, the reality is IT IS DONE.

Wayne made the choice he felt best for DCS and it's clients, and will continue to update what he does in the future.

Our/your choice. Take advantage of Wayne's offer of compenstation if appropriate, and either continue to support and purchase DCS's future offerings, or not!

This is reality.

Pete

[notageek]

Not taking sides here. But don't think that maybe it's Waynes and the others at DCS to teeminate TDS? I think it is. There's no point in trying to make them feel bad becuase they didn't introduce TDS4 to the world before they terminated TDS. We all should sit back and wait to see what's next that they come out with. Maybe we should thank the DSC team for what they have done and wish them good luck on any other thing they do.

[ellison64]

Well sometimes "doing the right thing" can bring about an alternate reality.For example ...Wayne initially offered all TDS3 customers a free licence to either port explorer or process guard.It wasnt until much later in the thread and only after many posts by annoyed customers that he offered a refund as many customers already had these .Ive asked for a wormguard licence ...at least that may come in handy...however i havent recieved a reply yet.
ellison

[Mike New]

I have to agree with the original poster of this thread that not all has been said regarding the sad TDS situation. I too puchased the $99 package in anticipation of TDS-4 and waited patiently for some time, alas, to come to this unhappy end. For every gripe on this board, there must be one or two hundred of us sitting in the background waiting for some definative statement from DCS regarding an affirmative refund policy. Rather than haggle with all the individuals who will be emailing, how about posting the parameters of your refund policy for all to see? That would at least be a step in the right direction.

[Juggernaut]

-{ Quote: "how about posting the parameters of your refund policy for all to see? That would at least be a step in the right direction." }-

-{ Quote: "FREE SOFTWARE offer to TDS3 registered users
We encourage all TDS3 registered users to take advantage of our new special offer! Yes we're giving away FREE licenses to your choice of our award-winning Port Explorer or ProcessGuard. If you already own both of those we'll even create a key for a friend of your choice! Simply email sales@diamondcs.com.au, and include your registration name, registration email address, and TDS3 keyfile (tds3.kf) for cross-reference authentication.." }-

Looks pretty cut and dried to me. I'm not happy about the situation. I would have liked to see TDS-4 also but what has happened is just a fact of life. Life is not getting everything we want or expect at all times. It's full of ups and down and we take our misses right along with our hits. It happens on a daily basis and we move on.

TDS-4 is cancelled and we have been given an offer that they did not need to give us. This is a case of take it or leave it but your not going to change it because it's already done. It's history. Yesterday's news.

Now those that want to see what the future holds should stick around and those that care not to should leave. Time for everyone to move on. I'll be sticking around to see what's next because I have been happy with the software I purchased from DCS for the past few years and feel I got my money out of it.

Those that just purchased the software should contact the company via email and see what can be worked out. A forum is not the place to negotiate a deal and get what you want. Won't happen!

The snide comments and conspiracy theories do not contribute to the situation as a whole or in part. It's alright to be angry about something but making yourself look like silly in public is not a good thing.

My last comment does not single out anyone who has posted but if you feel offended by it, you are probably guilty. ;D

[Morpheus]

I don't know if I am weird in some way for this and TBF I have had TDS-3 for about 3 years and so got more than value for money from it. However I NEVER purchase a particular version of software on the promise of the next version. When I bought KAV at version 4.5 I knew that version 5.0 was on the way and that it was supposed to be a vast improvement in speed, resource usage and mail support but in my mind it was vaporware until it actually came out and even then there was no guarantee it really would be better therefore my decision to purchase was based soley on the merits of KAV 4.5. The same goes for TDS-3 whilst I would have considered TDS-4 a nice bonus for all we know it may have been buggy, a resource hog, have compatibility problems etc. or simply have changed so much as to no longer perform the function we bought TDS-3 for effectively on our systems. Therefore this should never be a factor when purchasing. TBH I always thought that sooner or later DCS would realise the error of their ways with a perpetual license and updates and transition to a subscription model for the updates as the TDS-3 model was a very poor business decision.

Just my thoughts on this,

Morpheus

[Judge Judy]

This is not that difficult.

A 'basis of the bargain' was established when a purchase was made with a promise of a future product. Thus, without that promise, many people would not have purchased the product. There is no 'gift' here, a promise of a future product is part of the purchase agreement.

That stated, in business things change all the time. And sometimes, contracts (and a purchase with a promise for a future product does enter the seller into an agreement) have to be amended and adjusted all the time.

Setting aside any claims for outright breach or contract or damages...
Also setting aside claims that the forthcoming products are similar in nature and owed to current license holders...

Fair value must be examined.

Those who purchased within the last year deserve 100% refund.

What is the average cost of the other three closest competing products?

Those who bought between one and two years ago should get back one half the price of the average of the three closest competitors, or could choose a credit of greater than that amount for same company products.

Those who bought greater than two years ago should get.... a lesser amount using the same average of the three competitors with some sort of depreciation built in.

The "solution" of granting additional licenses, and the wanting of future licenses only clouds the water.

But the company wants to avoid giving money.... so they should offer a greater value in trade...

And many people want licenses for future products... but they should pursue money.

Currency is for transactions, and for resolutions.

[Carver]

-{ Quote: ". Life is not getting everything we want or expect at all times. It's full of ups and down and we take our misses right along with our hits." }-

We weren't at bat, were we. The decision was made for us.

-{ Quote: "It happens on a daily basis and we move on" }-

Its not so easy when the way it was done is unfair to some.

[Peter2150]

Hi Judge Judy

Your are right. This is not that difficult. Since you are putting it in legal terms. What was the "product" No one has bought a product. If you want to talk legalese, take a gander at this. THIS is the legal agreement, to which every user agreed. Note it guarantees your right to a free update, but doesn't guarantee there will be an update. That TDS said there would be, as the license is the total agreement.



TERM:
Licensed end users are granted a license to use TDS-3 with no expiry. This license shall be automatically terminated if you breach any of the terms or conditions. Licensed end users are entitled to FREE updates of all TDS-3 binaries and database updates. Purchase is non-refundable after the license has been generated at DCS. DCS reserves the right to terminate the License at any time.

OWNERSHIP OF SOFTWARE:
You can use the software but you do not become an owner of TDS-3. Ownership and title of TDS-3 at all times is retained by DCS for the original program and any subsequent copies irrespective of the media or form in which they exist.

COPYRIGHT:
TDS-3 and any accompanying written materials are copyrighted by DCS. You must include this License Agreement and Copyright Notice in all backup copies of TDS-3. You may not sell, rent or lease TDS-3. You may not reverse engineer, recompile, disassemble, or create derivative works from TDS-3. You may not publish your license in any form. You may keep 1 backup of your keyfile.


ENTIRE LICENSE:
This License sets forth the entire understanding between you and DCS and may be amended only in writing signed by both parties. NO VENDOR, DISTRIBUTOR, DEALER, RETAILER, OR OTHER PERSON IS AUTHORIZED TO MODIFY THIS LICENSE OR TO MAKE ANY WARRANTY, REPRESENTATION OR PROMISE WHICH IS DIFFERENT FROM, OR IN ADDITION TO, THE REPRESENTATIONS OR PROMISES OF THIS LICENSE.

WARRANTY-FREE:
DCS disclaims any warranties concerning works of this copy. DCS does not warrant that the software is error free, identifies all known trojans, or may not occasionally report a trojan in a file not infected by that trojan.

NO LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES:
In no event shall DCS or its suppliers be liable for consequential, incidental or indirect damages of any kind
arising out of the performance or use of the TDS-3, even if DCS has been advised of the possibility of such damages.

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "The decision is made, the deed is done. No matter how much one thinks that something different were done, or should have been done, the reality is IT IS DONE." }-

Inflexibility is never conducive to good health.

Rich

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "This is not that difficult.

A 'basis of the bargain' was established when a purchase was made with a promise of a future product. Thus, without that promise, many people would not have purchased the product. There is no 'gift' here, a promise of a future product is part of the purchase agreement.
" }-

I think Kingsley would give you an A+ for analyzing this case study. I learned a lot from Paper Chase. ;)

Cya,
Rich

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "I think Kingsley would give you an A+ for analyzing this case study. I learned a lot from Paper Chase. ;)

Cya,
Rich" }-

Nope. Read the license agreement. Whatever is stated informally is superseded by the license agreement which you accept upon installation. It states you are entitled to free upgrades to TDS-3 binaries. Ergo that only applies IF there are updates, and only if they are to TDS-3 binaries. TDS-4 wouldn't have been that. Sorry.

[hayc59]

-{ Quote: "I rest my case about anonymous posters. Feel free to believe anything that any registered poster here has said whether it's negative or positive (we've already seen a lot of good passionate responses from both camps), but anonymous posters at forums often have alterior motives. History speaks for itself, but again it's entirely up to you what you make of their posts." }-
Another reason to have folks register to post any comments now and in the future!!
Thats my 2 cents and I know what "WTF" means ;)

[llllllll]

@Peter2150

In my opinion, you legal analysis is flawed. In particular, the following statement is unfounded: "as the license is the total agreement". For instance, a license agreement does not supersede a liability resulting from false advertising. Btw. ... are you a lawyer?

Anyway, no legal analysis is required if VaporWayne sticks to his promise and discusses refund options with recent customers.

I think people, who are not interested in a PG license, should complain if (and only if) such discussion are fruitless.

[Jooske]

You guys might like to check your microsoft programs EULAs starting with whatever windows version you have -- was there anything in them about Longhorn when you installed XP? use, ownership, upgrades, updates, costs and compare them with this.



Many users do know the DiamondCS company long time and installed the whole lot of their products, of which many free tools. Generally spoken all outstanding products.
So continue looking forward to new outstanding products for our system security in an all new generation (as we were promissed) -- Wayne ever posted his new stuff would leave a bomb in security country, most certainly did till now although not exactly the kind of bomb we were expecting.
Anyway, all will be made right soon enough, not any reason to frustrate the new evolvements in any way, let the guys work on it and let's see what they come with.

[fireball]

I can certainly understand where one would be frustrated in buying something and then not long afterwards the product is discontinued. It happens all the time- go buy a xbox and see if Bill Gates will give you your money back when the Xbox 360 comes out this fall; I know its not exactly the same situation- you can still use the xbox even after they stop making games (heck I still play my Atari, they don't build joysticks like that anymore- slam them things against the wall all day long they can take it). It's not like DCS is a new company that duped a bunch of people into buying their products and then folded shop so they could run off with all their millions. They have been around forever and unfortunately there are always going to be some people that don't get as good a deal as others. Heck i'm still hunting down that bastard that talked me into buying beta over VHS; and don't even get me started on the prick that sold me that laserdisc player. Plus I paid $300 for my Xbox and within 3 months they were selling for $150; frickin Microsoft- i'll still end up buying the xbox 360 but i'm really pissed.

[ellison64]

-{ Quote: "Nope. Read the license agreement. Whatever is stated informally is superseded by the license agreement which you accept upon installation. It states you are entitled to free upgrades to TDS-3 binaries. Ergo that only applies IF there are updates, and only if they are to TDS-3 binaries. TDS-4 wouldn't have been that. Sorry." }-

I wouldnt call the "free upgrade to tds4" advert at dcs website an informal statement.... but rather an intentional marketing ploy designed to persuade the potential buyer to purchase tds3 .You can nitpick the eula all you like ...it still amounts to false advertising ,and after all.... the claims at the site is what persuades a prospective buyer to purchase...... not the eula ....which the buyer hasnt access too until hes either bought or downloaded the programe.
ellison

[AAPlus2]

Hello,To all

Now not sure if this has been asked yet so i will ask anyway
is there some way That i can get my hands on WormGuard
i don't need PG i have it & i don't use it much anyways.

if so please reply so i may send what info you need
of me to get going on this here.

Thank you

[Don Pelotas]

-{ Quote: "Hello,To all

Now not sure if this has been asked yet so i will ask anyway
is there some way That i can get my hands on WormGuard
i don't need PG i have it & i don't use it much anyways.

if so please reply so i may send what info you need
of me to get going on this here.

Thank you" }-
If you had read this thread, you would've noticed this ;) :
-{ Quote: "If you still have any questions or concerns about ANYTHING then please re-read the previous thread, and if that fails to answer your question then simply contact us at sales@diamondcs.com.au, we can't make it any easier than that.

Anyway that is all I have to say on this matter, we've moved on - for you. We wouldn't if it wasn't in your best interests, it's that simple.

Over and out and back to work,
Wayne" }-

[dallen]

-{ Quote: "Nope. Read the license agreement. Whatever is stated informally is superseded by the license agreement which you accept upon installation. " }-The law is not black and white and I'm not a lawyer. A good argument that the EULA doesn't nullify the terms of the sales agreement, considering the manner in which they are agreed upon, could be formed. The sales agreement could be strongly argued included TDS-4, and WD-4 for that matter. However, a skillful lawyer representing DCS, et al could formulate a good counter argument, I'm sure. Ultimately a judge would need to decide. In this case, the most important judges are the customers and they will rule with their credit cards.

[sick0]

-{ Quote: "You guys might like to check your microsoft programs EULAs starting with whatever windows version you have -- was there anything in them about Longhorn when you installed XP? use, ownership, upgrades, updates, costs and compare them with this." }-

Jooske, i have high respect for you... forgive me for saying this but that is completely nonsense... MS never promised anything about free upgrade to its next OS, Wayne did...

im not anti-DCS or anything, i loved their products actually and in my opinion one of the best especially PG... i just don't like the way he handled things (no forewarning) and IMO no respectable companies would do that...

[Mike New]

The last line of the current DCS page says:

"Keep an eye on our website for upcoming releases and updates, and even a new website which is just around the corner!"

Maybe that "just around the corner" phase was not the best choice of words given the TDS-4 situation.

In the meantime, I want to express my thoughts that pro-rated cash refunds are absolutely the best way to handle this situation. It is the only way to instill any confidence at all in the future of DCS. Most folks are not going to opt for extra licenses or programs at this point, as many suspect that (if I may use a crude American expression) DCS and its host of other programs may also be "circling the bowl" at this time and the proverbial plug could also be pulled on those programs at anytime, regardless of what assurances are given. If DCS wants to keep its existing customer base and avoid the type of bad publicity and legal wrangling which has led to the demise of companies much larger than theirs, the pro-rated cash refunds are the ONLY way to go.

[Crawling Eye]

It's been a few days since TDS was discontinued, so I've had enough time to really think about this. Here is my opinion.

I was initially supportive of Wayne and his decision. His starting post in the original thread made a lot of sense. I don't think anyone blames Wayne for discontinuing TDS. Quality AV programs such as NOD32 or Kaspersky have pretty much caught up to TDS's level in trojan protection. New products like A2 and Ewido are coming into their own and are already very good, if not better than TDS-3. I can also understand the difficulty, or rather nuisance, of updating an AV/AT program on a daily basis (although, if DiamondCS were making good money, I am sure they would have no problem hiring a couple more people to help out... which is why I believe this to be mainly a financial decision.).

Then I really thought about it. I am upset. The way Wayne handled this entire situation is selfish, arrogant, and irresponsible. To stop support for such an important protection software without notice is, well, the equivalent of Wayne basically crapping on everyone's head. And his resulting stance makes me feel like he cares nothing about me or other customers.

Wayne had an OBLIGATION (to his customers) to provide a window of at least 1 month's notice, to enable people to acquire alternative protection. A lot of time goes into selecting new software. I personally am still unsure of what I want to go with: A2, Ewido, or TH. And what about Wayne's new, secret, product that is "just around the corner"? If it is an AT product, then maybe I should wait for it's release. But, considering that TDS-4's release was being promised for (literally) years, it wouldn't be smart. It may come out next week or, well, never. I don't know what to do. If the new product will be better than it's competition, then I'd be wasting money by first purchasing something else. What am I supposed to do, Wayne? Should I go with something else now or should I wait? And what will you do, Wayne, if my computer gets damaged in the meantime, because you pulled TDS off the market too quickly?

If the new product is, in fact, an AT product, then Wayne should have kept TDS-3 fully updated to the very day of it's release. In fact, a month into it, so people had plenty of time for the transition. There is no excuse for what Wayne did. I use NOD32, but I feel naked and afraid without a second layer of protection that TDS provided. This is the situation that you put me in, Wayne.

On a side note, I came close to purchasing BOClean, but then I read Kevin's comments in the original thread. The man sounds like a drunken, blithering, ..... (your choice of word here). I also feel Kevin owes Magnus an apology. Magnus came here to offer support and he was immediately attacked by Kevin. With the dumbest argument of all: that Magnus was personally responsible for TDS's collapse, when it was Wayne's company who offered free TDS updates for life before Trojan Hunter was even born. If anyone is responsible for Wayne not making money because of the "free" update policy, then it is Wayne.

And here's the other issue. Wayne stated that a lot of the TDS-4's technology is in the new program. So it is an AT product, right? If not, then I apologize. But if it is, then it is basically TDS-4 with a changed name. Maybe a few things added/removed. I'm thinking it's the TDS-4 "guard" without the scanner, since Wayne doesn't want the hassle of daily updates anymore.

I will tell you something, Wayne. If the new product is an AT product, then you deserve all the hatred that you'll get. A promise turned into a lie will get you every time. Whatever you call your new product, people were expecting a new AT software to replace TDS-3.

I understand that TDS was your main product, and that this may be your biggest money-maker yet, but going back on your promise and trying to wiggle out of it by calling the new product something other than TDS is the wrong way to go. You should have leveled with people. I personally would have understood, if you spilled your guts and said that you are financially unable to provide the (free) upgrade. I would have accepted a 50% discount and understood that any major upgrades will require a payment. But the lies and the deception... that is just something I can't respect.

Where does it leave our business? I will purchase your new AT product, but you better pray that it is substantially better than the competition. It if is only marginally better, then I am going somewhere else. Somewhere where the company doesn't take me for granted.

Furthermore, Wayne, your statement about not responding to guest posters is silly. I have been a registered user of your products for a long time and I don't think I need to register to your forum in order to have a conversation with you. But you don't have to respond, as this is the only post that I'll write.

[Referee]

I an a licensed user of TDS-3, just some thoughts of the issue, i find it strange that people take this whole thing so seriously. Though a fine program TDS-3 is, it's still just a program, no-one is loosing his genitals here.

first of all, i find it a fine thing, that Wayne and other Diamond CS people are here replying to our post in a first place. It's not a selfevident thing. So, credits to DiamondCS for that.

Secondly, Wayne & co has full right to quit a product line whenever he chooses. When a client purchases a program, he takes a risk that a program will not be developed (if that is now a risk at all). Client will get free upgrades *if there will be them*. So simple is that. Now in my opinion DiamondCS has handled this issue very fine, as they give registered users free software, port explorer or processguard. They would not *have to* give them out!!

~~ snip / uncalled for comment removed ~~

LowWaterMark - References to any specific nationalities or other type of similar remarks are not appropriate and have no place here. Talk about the product or the options, but not about the people posting here.

Also, a reply quoting the removed comment was also removed since the comment itself was removed.

[Referee]

I was *not* referring to any specific nationalities, like my post said "which i don't mention".
What "Uncalled for comment" means? Didn't find it in dictionary.

>but not about the people posting here
Many here talks about the people posting here. How about "snip" other posts too?

And, what i said, is true. DiamondCS should be given an industrial peace and childish whining about quitting tds-3 product line should stop.

[LowWaterMark]

-{ Quote: "I was *not* referring to any specific nationalities, like my post said "which i don't mention"." }-No, you didn't name the nationality specifically, but you described it well enough so that some people might think you were referring to their country, which would then cause them to reply back because they would be offended by the remark if it were about them.

There was no need for that remark (the one removed). It wasn't about TDS at all, but about some of the people posting here, and that is why it was considered inappropriate.

-{ Quote: "What "Uncalled for comment" means? Didn't find it in dictionary." }-It can mean any or all of this: Inappropriate. Unnecessary. A comment for which there was no need to write. One not supporting your specific position related to what you think DCS or its customers should do, but rather a negative comment about the people posting here.

-{ Quote: "And, what i said, is true. DiamondCS should be given an industrial peace and childish whining about quitting tds-3 product line should stop." }-While I don't consider the comments being posted here as childish, I do have to agree in part that the same comments seem to be getting posted over and over now. Almost no new observations, recommendations and comments are being added anymore. People are basically just saying the same thing over and over now.

[StevieO]

I myself have numerous Security Apps on my PC, but they are there as reassurance more than anything else, just in case !

If people surf in a completely safe fashion, and have done everything they can to Totally Secure their computers and browser, then they have the least to fear or worry about Viruses or Trojans etc.

I never get any malware on my computer from surfing etc. In fact i have only had one thing happen which was my fault and something i allowed out of curiosity, but was able to fully deal with it.

I think the vast majority of people out there who don't have a clue about securing their computers, and Security Apps etc etc, and surf unsafely all the time, are the ones in most need of all this stuff.

But the problem is they wouldn't know where to start, or have the patience to read everything and therefore understand and learn what to do, and what to get and how to set up all the options once they had etc etc.

So i wonder why some people who are more aware than those i mentioned, seem to to be overly concerned that they are about to be infected with something any day soon until they choose an alternative to TDS. If they have all the measures in place as suggested above, then they should be just fine.

I would rate the following as good replacements.

BOClean

Ewido

a2


StevieO

[fireball]

I have found the best TDS-3 replacement out there; it's called Linux/FreeBSD. The best part- most of the software is FREE. Now don't get me wrong, I am not implying or issuing a "guarantee" that nothing bad will happen to your computer- but I honestly feel safer running FreeBSD with no protection, than I do running Windows with a Firewall, Anti-Virus, Spam Blocker, Trojan Scanner, and the turret mounted chain gun with GPS sighting on top of my garage.

In all seriousness, this post and my previous post are not intended to make fun of the people who feel cheated and/or duped- had I recently purchased TDS-3 and was under a fairly realistic assumption that the product was going to be around for a while, I'd probably be pretty pissed if the plug was pulled before I received what I felt was my money's worth. But I would probably have chosen a different route to ask for a refund- something to the effect of a phone call or e-mail to DCS stating "Dear Sirs, I was sooo disappointed to learn that you have decided to discontinue TDS-3, numerous friends and colleagues had informed me that your Protection Program was far superior to any other Trojan Scanners currently available. Additionally I was very impressed with the fact that your company has been around so long; I am fairly new to this internet thing and very apprehensive about making purchases online, as there are so many unscrupulous companies out there that are just trying swindle honest people out of their money. Your website makes mention of a new product coming out in the near future, although I realize you are not obligated to- is there any chance you would be willing to offer a complimentary or reduced price on this new program? Do to my recent layoff finances are very tight at the moment. I will say that in the very short amount of time I was able to enjoy TDS-3 it is clear that your programs are the best and I have already told all my friends and family that they should not even bother to shop elsewhere for their security software. Thank you in advance for your fair handling of this matter" (alright that was maybe pouring it on a tad thick). But hopefully you get the point. As oposed to going to a public forum and openly trashing someone. In my experience people are generally more willing to accomodate you when you are kissing their butt, than when you are trying to plant your foot in it. If in fact DCS wanted to get out from under a non-profitable "free updates for life" policy by changing the name- then that sucks and everyone is justified in being pissed; Take comfort in the fact that scammers, cheats, etc. usually don't stick around for very long. But I personally don't believe DCS was trying to screw anyone.

My advice for avoiding virus', trojans, spyware, etc
1. Quit going to porn sites
2. Quit downloading porn onto your hard drive
3. Tell your buddies to quit e-mailing you porn

[Jooske]

Crawling Eye, of course the products all are AT as the whole company is specialised in AT protection / prevention. So expect DiamondCS to do it's business as begfopre, even though it takes new routes in development.

[paulson]

-{ Quote: "It's been a few days since TDS was discontinued, so I've had enough time to really think about this. Here is my opinion." }-
I should've prefered to wait too, 'cause my opinion changed monumental going through the threads and let some time pass by.

CRAWLING EYE could you please register (and write this again) to provoke some reaction, just in case there are some lidded-ones out there who need a registerd counterpart to feel save to respond.

Your statement was comprehensive and closed to what I'm thinking now. So I'm gonna quote a lot, cause your english is better than mine.

-{ Quote: "I was initially supportive of Wayne and his decision. His starting post in the original thread made a lot of sense. I don't think anyone blames Wayne for discontinuing TDS." }-

Right


-{ Quote: "Then I really thought about it. I am upset. The way Wayne handled this entire situation is selfish, arrogant, and irresponsible. To stop support for such an important protection software without notice is, well, the equivalent of Wayne basically crapping on everyone's head. And his resulting stance makes me feel like he cares nothing about me or other customers.

Wayne had an OBLIGATION (to his customers) to provide a window of at least 1 month's notice, to enable people to acquire alternative protection. A lot of time goes into selecting new software. I personally am still unsure of what I want to go with: A2, Ewido, or TH. And what about Wayne's new, secret, product that is "just around the corner"? If it is an AT product, then maybe I should wait for it's release. But, considering that TDS-4's release was being promised for (literally) years, it wouldn't be smart. It may come out next week or, well, never. I don't know what to do. If the new product will be better than it's competition, then I'd be wasting money by first purchasing something else. What am I supposed to do, Wayne? Should I go with something else now or should I wait? And what will you do, Wayne, if my computer gets damaged in the meantime, because you pulled TDS off the market too quickly?" }-

Partially right. There are to many inconsistencies. Sometime Wayne said "around the corner", in another post a "couple of months". Is that the same?
This sounds not like a real true story to me.


-{ Quote: "If the new product is, in fact, an AT product, then Wayne should have kept TDS-3 fully updated to the very day of it's release. In fact, a month into it, so people had plenty of time for the transition. There is no excuse for what Wayne did." }-

Right, but, as he said "no time", and it pins to many ressources down.
DEFINATELY he should have offered us an interim solution, whatever it could've been.


-{ Quote: "I personally am still unsure of what I want to go with: A2, Ewido, or TH." }-
-{ Quote: "On a side note, I came close to purchasing BOClean, but then I read Kevin's comments in the original thread. The man sounds like a drunken, blithering, ..... (your choice of word here). I also feel Kevin owes Magnus an apology. Magnus came here to offer support and he was immediately attacked by Kevin. With the dumbest argument of all: that Magnus was personally responsible for TDS's collapse, when it was Wayne's company who offered free TDS updates for life before Trojan Hunter was even born. If anyone is responsible for Wayne not making money because of the "free" update policy, then it is Wayne.
" }-

Personally I'm absolutely not unsure how to continue without TDS3, 'cause there is lot's of other progs out there, even if I have to use a combination of two of them (MS Antispyware/EWIDO...?). Aside from that I have WG and PG installed.
But I'm very shure that I won't purchase anything from the two other guys that showed up in the other thread. Sorry guys, take a few weeks off to cure your burn-out-syndrom, and do not talk in such nonprofessional manner. Was a good chance to bully in here and do some ad and get rid of some frustration ey?

If DALLEN was selling software I can imagine buyin' from him, because he mostly keeps a high level when writing (One exception in the other thread, glad you are back without that childish " I am done posting here... ... ... Now I'm going to stir things up." ) and he always shows up as a needful adjustment to some other people. No offend to them who write here on a daily bases to help others, but we need the "other" voices too.

-{ Quote: "Furthermore, Wayne, your statement about not responding to guest posters is silly. I have been a registered user of your products for a long time and I don't think I need to register to your forum in order to have a conversation with you. But you don't have to respond, as this is the only post that I'll write." }-

I think he is right with that too.
Wayne you acted a little bit of holier-than-thou/arrogant. And your new direction was not presented very clever. I mean, waking up last friday noticing you discontinued TDS3 - anything else? - How to top this off?
You've shaken confidence of the consumers, that needs more transparency to be corrected.

That's it, have fun guys, take care - weekend is comming, spelling mistakes can be kept.

paulson

[JRCATES]

This thread is probably very theropeutic and helpful to those with questions, comments or concerns.....so I certainly don't mean to diminish it here with this statement.....but this is simply an observation.

This may be the longest running thread in the history of Wilders Security forums! It may even be on track to be setting a few records as far as a thread in ANY type general forum (LOL).

So why don't we consider changing the name to "The Energizer Bunny Thread"....cause it just keeps going, and going, and going....

[tuatara]

Fireball wrote:

-{ Quote: "I have found the best TDS-3 replacement out there; it's called Linux/FreeBSD. The best part- most of the software is FREE. Now don't get me wrong, I am not implying or issuing a "guarantee" that nothing bad will happen to your computer- but I honestly feel safer running FreeBSD with no protection, than I do running Windows with a Firewall, Anti-Virus, Spam Blocker, Trojan Scanner, and the turret mounted chain gun with GPS sighting on top of my garage." }-

Yes , you are true, i've been working as a UnixSpecialist for > 20 years now,
at the top 500 Companies, and of course if it must be reiliable or safe
you need a kind of Unix (like a Sun Microsystems H.A. Cluster) etc.

I've never seen a 'Air traffic crontrol computer' run a Microsoft OS
Or bank Stock Exchange computers doing that.

Or Hospital equipment like MRi or CAT scanners (they always run a kind of Unix).

Or LARGE webservers at ISP's (iis is only for small environments) / Mailservers (exchange is not suitable for large environments) etc.

But today, now the prices of computers are lower then they ever where,
anyone can buy an extra system and install FreeBSD on it.

And connect it on his network.

If you use this computer especially for you Internet Connections
like mail and webbrowsing chat etc. you'll see almost no difference in how you have to use it.

But of course it is faster, cheaper (pay nothing for sw), and safer!

And the way the OS is made, you have no problems with Spyware, Trojans etc.

And you'll find more open source and free software then you'll think there was.

In those 20 years, i have never seen real problems like that on ANY kind of Unix
( Debian. Fedora. Gentoo. Mandrake. Red Hat. SUSE. Slackware. Santa Fe etc. -> Linux), / HP-UX / Solaris / FreeBSD etc .etc.)

I am working with Microsoft's software since 1975 , and have to work with it,
because everybody does, and it is my job.

But for anyone who is specialized in more OS-es, Windows (95 - XP sp2)
is of course without a doubt the worst.

And oke it is getting some better, but only because they stea.. eh use more
and more features of Unix in it.

But the pro is because of the extreme high sw / OS licenses prices,
and the Unix-es getting more and more simple (see Knoppix for example)
more and more Companies swicth over to a Unix and free software
like OpenOffice , FireFox etc. etc.

So if you need a REAL alternative to TDS i agree that this is the best option.

[Edwin024]

It's really unbelievable what crap some writers give here. All in favour of DCS. It's just a fact that how DCS have handled this is totally wrong. Not the decision to stop. But all afterwards.

And what Wayne is doing here: I'm flabbergasted. Just don't answer any very legitimate things just because someone writes as a guest.

I own PG and because of this thread I'm starting to hate it... DCS sucks.

[---]

-{ Quote: "

This may be the longest running thread in the history of Wilders Security forums! It may even be on track to be setting a few records as far as a thread in ANY type general forum (LOL).
" }-

Hyperbole. 6 pages is nothing.

[ellison64]

-{ Quote: "
On a side note, I came close to purchasing BOClean, but then I read Kevin's comments in the original thread. The man sounds like a drunken, blithering, ..... (your choice of word here). I also feel Kevin owes Magnus an apology. Magnus came here to offer support and he was immediately attacked by Kevin. With the dumbest argument of all: that Magnus was personally responsible for TDS's collapse, when it was Wayne's company who offered free TDS updates for life before Trojan Hunter was even born. If anyone is responsible for Wayne not making money because of the "free" update policy, then it is Wayne.

On the purely subjective issue of whether boclean is a good antitrojan , then i think the answer must be yes and should be considered with your other choices like trojanhunter ewido etc..I dont know any of the AT developers personally though i guess they seem to know each other pretty well , so i tend to stay out of thier personal mudslinging and reserve judgment.I can personally vouch for boclean support though (as can many others) and Kevin Macleavy has personally helped me on a few occasions.His manner and ways of communication does sometime seem a little eccentric (no offence intended) however i just accept that ,thats how he is.The quality of the programe and service that he and his company provides through ,updates and support though ,is without question top notch.
ellison

[AAPlus2]

Hey,All

Wow this is so sad we are still on this move on
it's like all of you think the big bad Trojan Programer
had been holding on to new ideas.

till TDS was gone i don't think so lit's move on
yes i say TDS-3 is/was one of the best out here
but i see some great progs that have come out
that will be a big help to us all

@Wayne

Thanks for a great prog i hope & pray for nothing
but the best to you & DiamondCS

but i my self i'm glad it happen now & not say
you put out TDS-4 then this happen man the
way some are Acting you would have to go in to hiding

well the best to all of you

Thank you

[Frank DeCaprone]

I have been using TDS3 for awhile and I am also one of the folks that felt shocked and completely abandoned when the plug was pulled with no notice at all. Extremely unprofessional and indicative of a company out of touch with its customer base. I found this most unusual considering all the I had previously read regarding DCS and its past work in AT research and prevention. I think it is most important for folks to keep this thread on topic and not get involved in any personal mudslinging or degradation. What is important in this thread is how DCS will compensate its customers for products promised at the time of sale and not delivered. That should be the focus. Whether DCS will voluntarily compensate customers, or whether their will be a class-action against the company. Here in the United States, the Federal Trade Commission is also VERY active against internet companies that may have misrepresented their offerings. Let's hope it does not come down to some type of legal action which would be very costly for all parties involved and that remedies can be found to appease those who felt that they were deceived and/or misled. But most important, that's what the focus of this thread should be. It's about DCS and what they have done and nothing else.

[EWT]

-{ Quote: "....While I don't consider the comments being posted here as childish, I do have to agree in part that the same comments seem to be getting posted over and over now. Almost no new observations, recommendations and comments are being added anymore. People are basically just saying the same thing over and over now." }-

LWM,

If the same thing is being said over and over by the same people, then your comment is well taken and probably some forum "house cleaning" is in order. But if different people are saying the same things, then your comment is inconsiderate and inappropriate as a neutral position that your service should be posturing. Every person deserves to be heard even if they want to voice the same oppinions of others. In order for DCS to understand the gravity and shear numbers of potential loss of customers, a reputable forum service with unquestionable integrity would allow and welcome every person's voice to be heard. This is your service to DCS. A reputable forum service certainly wouldn't enter into or take sides in the discussion by commenting about the validity or quality of the posts (unless it was violating some forum rules, which btw, in case you haven't noticed, there doesn't seem to be any forum rules except those you make up as you go along). If there are rules, they are not in an obvious place where everyone can easily find them.

Now please notice here before you get out your big wielding stick, there are no personal attacks toward you, and none are intended.

[Bubba]

-{ Quote: " If there are rules, they are not in an obvious place where everyone can easily find them" }-You may have already found Wilders rules....or TOS(Terms of Service) as we refer to them....but they are located on every page in the bottom right area labeled TOS/Privacy (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/TOS-Privacy.html)

[Jooske]

Would advice people to read, get away from the thread rethinking, reading other threads, before writing the same arguments they just read from others.
See how much the original opinion changes.
Take a deep breath, read Wayne's original announcement another time and look another time at opinions.
Then look back at the past experiences over the recent years, attitude, etc. and then come to a conclusion.
Of course there are many sides on the whole matter and it does hurt to close a good product, but only done to have oportunities to open new lines which are better suited for the users in this current time.
Isn't our common experience there is always some nice agreement to satisfy users in business? Think so. But give them the opportunity to create the new stuff to enable them to make the users happy in some decent way.
The only thing is Wayne is not telling how the offers will look like, learned from experience.

If we really want TDS-3 to continue till the new product line is getting ready for download we could consider to hire the maintenance ourselves for that while. 8)

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "I have been using TDS3 for awhile and I am also one of the folks that felt shocked and completely abandoned when the plug was pulled with no notice at all. Extremely unprofessional and indicative of a company out of touch with its customer base. I found this most unusual considering all the I had previously read regarding DCS and its past work in AT research and prevention. I think it is most important for folks to keep this thread on topic and not get involved in any personal mudslinging or degradation. What is important in this thread is how DCS will compensate its customers for products promised at the time of sale and not delivered. That should be the focus. Whether DCS will voluntarily compensate customers, or whether their will be a class-action against the company. Here in the United States, the Federal Trade Commission is also VERY active against internet companies that may have misrepresented their offerings. Let's hope it does not come down to some type of legal action which would be very costly for all parties involved and that remedies can be found to appease those who felt that they were deceived and/or misled. But most important, that's what the focus of this thread should be. It's about DCS and what they have done and nothing else." }-

First have you read what DCS said? You say "Whether DCS will voluntarily compensate customers" They have already said they will!

Without going into the reality of what you posted. It is obvious you are not happy about what happened or why. DCS had to make a business decision. They have stated publicly what their compensation policy is and stated if you aren't happy about that to contact them, and see what you can work out.

Seems to me that would make much more sense, than this post.

[Carver]

If there are rules, they are not in an obvious place where everyone can easily find them.

I can help you out with that http://www.wilderssecurity.com/TOS-Privacy.html

[LowWaterMark]

-{ Quote: "Every person deserves to be heard even if they want to voice the same oppinions of others." }-And clearly, they are being allowed to state them. That is why this thread is here and has been kept open and available to all.

-{ Quote: "In order for DCS to understand the gravity and shear numbers of potential loss of customers, a reputable forum service with unquestionable integrity would allow and welcome every person's voice to be heard." }-Yes again, that is why this thread has stay opened.

-{ Quote: "(unless it was violating some forum rules, which btw, in case you haven't noticed, there doesn't seem to be any forum rules except those you make up as you go along). If there are rules, they are not in an obvious place where everyone can easily find them." }-Ah, interesting how in a topic about TDS you've now moved to debating this forum's moderation methods, what rules there are or are not, where they are located, etc. And while "kind of" politely stated, it obviously has a bit of a snip at me.

Could it be you have an ulterior motivation to introduce this off-topic commentary here in this thread? Could it be that you are upset because you wanted to have your own separate thread on this topic, which I merged into here? And after I merged it into here, as noted in this placeholder thread (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=90644), you decided you deserved to have your own separate thread from every other poster here, and reposted the same content in a second new thread boldly titled: "ADMIN, DON'T MOVE THIS!".

Wrong. If we feel something needs to be moved, we will move it!

If you don't understand the rules here, which are really no different then most online forums, then you can certainly ask. But, when staff makes a moderation, whether that be a thread move or merge, or even an edit or deletion, those decisions are final. This forum is privately owned and operated, and we will make the decisions we feel are appropriate.

-{ Quote: "Now please notice here before you get out your big wielding stick, there are no personal attacks toward you, and none are intended." }-And there are ways of stating things that are nicer than others. "big wielding stick" has a negative connotation to it. Sure, you can say no attacks are present or no offense is intended, or whatever, but your wording is just edgy enough to take a dig at me while trying to make it look like you're being totally nice and polite.

In any case, we are allowing continued discussion on this topic's subject. I've replied to your statements here, since you raised them here. But, if you have further issue because you've been "moderated", then you can continue to PM me. We will not discuss this forum's moderation further in this thread.

[Kentish]

I cant belive people are still ranting over this. TDS was a damned good program that has served many well, but is now becoming out of date technology wise. Time and technology move on, and if DCS feel they need to make a different approach to help in the fight against the nasties out there then so be it.
Lets be clear though, TDS was only a £30 program, not a £30,000 program so lets put things in perspective.

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "I cant belive people are still ranting over this. TDS was a damned good program that has served many well, but is now becoming out of date technology wise. Time and technology move on, and if DCS feel they need to make a different approach to help in the fight against the nasties out there then so be it.
Lets be clear though, TDS was only a £30 program, not a £30,000 program so lets put things in perspective." }-

Hi Kentish,

To use analogy, that I think may reflect why so many users are upset (I do not include myself, since I switched to Ewido for real-time monitoring some time ago):

Suppose you, as a user, spent several weeks (possibly months) deciding on a new alarm system to guard your house, and, after all of this work of finding, paying for, and installing the alarm system, which you feel is crucial to your security, you receive a phone call, on Friday evening, without any warning, that your alarm system has been immediately turned-off and is no longer operational. Hmmmm ... Don't you think this may be just a little upsetting?

Regards,
Rich

[Bubba]

@ EWT,

Your last post was removed.

As you were told by the Site owner....moderating of posts will not be discussed further in this thread. Please continue the discussion on this topic's subject....or heed what LWM suggested and slide him a PM if you really feel froggy and have anything further to say about this moderating matter.

[trock]

This is not much more than another venting thread.

I bought TDS-3 because most experts felt it was the best in the industry.

I do trust the DCS vision, and comprehend what it takes to run a meaningful, and financially responsible company. I suspect many posting here probably don't fully get the latter point.

For me, there's no reason to doubt the intentions of DCS. It's impossible to please everyone, McDonald's sure doesn't. But probably in the end, if DCS were to just say the heck with it, we quit...most people would say "they were a great outfit...they developed products ahead of most others out there..."

Seems like that's where they are headed, and I'm anxious to know what they bring.

Just my pennies...

TR

[NICK ADSL UK]

Hi all :)
Could you please heed bubba"s advice above with regards this thread. Only posts that are strictly in line with this thread"s title please as any outher type of reply will be removed

Thank you

[Kentish]

-{ Quote: "Hi Kentish,

To use analogy, that I think may reflect why so many users are upset (I do not include myself, since I switched to Ewido for real-time monitoring some time ago):

Suppose you, as a user, spent several weeks (possibly months) deciding on a new alarm system to guard your house, and, after all of this work of finding, paying for, and installing the alarm system, which you feel is crucial to your security, you receive a phone call, on Friday evening, without any warning, that your alarm system has been immediately turned-off and is no longer operational. Hmmmm ... Don't you think this may be just a little upsetting?

Regards,
Rich" }-

Maybe so, but then its not a £30 pc software item.
TDS is just a program at the end of the day, and DCS will produce something of equal if not better quality, so lets get off their back.
They have produced many quality programs over the time, so just because TDS is stopped why does that mean DCS will no longer provide excellent software?

As I said, perspective is needed.

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "Maybe so, but then its not a £30 pc software item.
TDS is just a program at the end of the day, and DCS will produce something of equal if not better quality, so lets get off their back.
They have produced many quality programs over the time, so just because TDS is stopped why does that mean DCS will no longer provide excellent software?

As I said, perspective is needed." }-

I do not think it is the quality of the product that is in question. In fact, quite the opposite. Users, probably would not be at all upset, if they found themselves all of a sudden without a "poor product" (they might be quite happy!).

Rather than the quality and reliability of DCS products, I believe the question lies in the quality/reliability of the company's managment decisions regarding the best interests of their customer base. Did it have to be done in this way? Were there other approaches that may have been better for users? These are the questions that I believe most of the posters on this thread have posited.

Regards,
Rich

[Kentish]

Since TDS has a determind following, dont you think they were damned if they did and damned if they didnt?
As I see it, there was no easy way to stop TDS without any amount of people getting upset.
Ultimately, I feel you have to trust DCS's judgement on the program and way forward, and personally I do.

[Joliet Jake]

I'd have appreciated an email regarding this so I didn't have to stumble across the news.
There may be very good reasons behind the termination of TDS-3, but reading the posts, it's been a PR disaster in many peoples eyes just banging up a post on a forum.

These people will go and tell others and this will do Diamond CS's reputation harm.

Shame really.

[F. K. Lane]

I can't believe it. I have subscribed to TDS-3 for over 2 years and the only way I found out is that the news is now all over the newsgroups on Usenet about what DCS did. You are so right. Not even an email-- I mean, how much time and effort does it take to email your subscribers about the situation?!? You ain't kidding when you said a public-relations disaster. Judging from the posts here and in the newsgroups, it looks like the DCS reputation just got a royal flush-- and I'm not talking about the winning kind either. A competely bungled operation which will distance most of their following, including yours truly. :-(

[F. K. Lane / con't]

P.S. I just read their website-- I couldn't believe what I was reading, particularly in the area of "in the best interests of our customers". What a patronizing statement. I'd like to decide what is in my best interests, thank you. More like in their own best interests, because they couldn't make enough money by giving away the next version for free for all they promised to. Unblelievable.

[Caratacus]

No matter which way you cut it, this event has been poorly managed and has created an impression that DiamondCS has not really looked after its customers.

We could have been told by email that the updates were stopping etc, rather than just wondering why the process wasn't working. Some reasonable offer of compensation (other than licences to programs many - most? - already own) might have been made for those who paid good money for this program and service on the understanding that it would be on-going and that a new version to which they were entited was on the way. Other avenues such as the possibility of paying a subscription to fund the updates might have been explored.

A little care taken in ending TDS3's distinguished career could have made the exercise more positive. As it is, a lot of us feel that we have been treated poorly, and have lost faith in a company that we have supported, recommended, and indeed gone in to bat for on various forums (as I have here: http://fileforum.betanews.com/detail/ProcessGuard/1088370511/1).

Damage has been done: that's a plain and obvious fact. Now DiamondCS needs to start rebuilding goodwill.

[Peter2150]

Couple of points.

1) I can understand people feeling like it would have been nice to have received an email informing them of the decision, but I am guessing that may have not proved practical. In my business I maintain contact with my clients by email, and phone. But I don't have the need to mass broadcast email, so I have no means to do so. On the few occasions, when I need to send the same email to all 90 of my clients it takes time, in my case a little less than an hour. Sure I could cut that down, but it just isn't worth it for the number of times I do it. If all of a sudden I had to send several thousand emails, I would really think long and hard about if it was really necessary, and/or practical.

2) Many of the posters keep referring to the tremendous damage DCS has done to themselves. Maybe, but then there are only 160+ posts in this thread, so even if each post represent one person, that isn't a big number. Finding this forum isn't that hard, so if someone looked, they'd find us. Assuming DCS delivers future techically advanced products, and history suggests they will, my hunch is the long term damage won't be very significant.

3) There also has been much criticism of the way DCS has handled this. I would be curious how many of the posters expressing this, have themselves had to deal with similiar situations. I have, and sometimes you have to do things you don't like, but still have to do them, and do them in a way you don't like. The old adage, till you walk in a mans shoes you really can't judge him, does apply.

Pete

PS. The local phone company did something similiar to me in my business, and I was hot about it myself. Being mad didn't change anything, so I had to move on, did so, and actually found a better service. Did it cost me anything? Yep. Did the phone company reimburse me? Nope. We just have to cope.

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "
3) There also has been much criticism of the way DCS has handled this. I would be curious how many of the posters expressing this, have themselves had to deal with similiar situations. I have, and sometimes you have to do things you don't like, but still have to do them, and do them in a way you don't like. The old adage, till you walk in a mans shoes you really can't judge him, does apply." }-

Yes, I have been involved in similar situations many times in my career. Basically the steps I took (as part of a team) was to:

1) Make sure that users had plenty of notice
2) Help ensure there was some migration path. Users normally have a set workflow and depend upon the software that they are using. Any disruption requires them to tend to the "emergency" right away - leaving other obligations - some of which require immeidate attention - on the back burner.
3) Make sure there is an equitable compensation for the disruption that was caused through no fault of the user.

Most of the time this causes great stress on the company that is terminating the product. It is the cost of doing business, if the company wants to maintain company goodwill and loyalty. It happens all of the time in the software business. When a company does not follow through in a manner that is perceived as reasonable by the users, then the disharmony generally has a very long lasting effect. It is the means by which users keep their vendors honest.

Based upon my experiences, DCS has a situation on their hands. But it isn't over until it is over, and hopefully that which can be fixed, will be fixed.

Regards,
Rich

[T2K]

-{ Quote: "Secondly, Wayne & co has full right to quit a product line whenever he chooses. When a client purchases a program, he takes a risk that a program will not be developed (if that is now a risk at all). Client will get free upgrades *if there will be them*. So simple is that. Now in my opinion DiamondCS has handled this issue very fine, as they give registered users free software, port explorer or processguard. They would not *have to* give them out!!" }-

Completely disagree. This isn't a picture viewer or an MP3 player. This is protection software. I have never heard of an AV/AT company ending (update) support without notice. What DCS did is completely unprofessional and inexcusable.

I also don't think that we are seeing the full picture of customer dissatisfaction on this forum. It is no secret that most people who post here are die-hard DCS groupies.

The fact that Wayne refuses to reply to a lot of people and that he pulls down a poll started by a member shows that he is feeling a lot of heat over this.

Someone in the other thread wrote that this is a PR nightmare. It is.

I hope it doesn't end in a legal action taken against DCS, but I do hope that Wayne learns something valuable here.

Tom

[NICK ADSL UK]

The post by the Guest Chuck Chuckerson has been removed as it was not in keeping with the topic of this thread. As i have said before and will say again will you all keep to the topic in question as failing to do so your posts will be removed

Thank you

[polyglory]

I have just found out that TDS 3 is no longer being supported.

I can understand the reasons why the decision was made, the proverbial happens.

I use two other of their products, quite happily.

What I am not to happy about, why could you not E-mail your registered customers about it.

A point to consider in future please.

[O_O]

Some good points and some bad points and lots of boring slag matching still going on in here I see ;)

If you were forced into a situation you would do what you can and try to minimize any problems, looks just like what was done here. Could have been done better, but at least free ProcessGuard :) and it works a lot better than betanews "reviews" suggest just use the help file. I'm happy with it :)

[o_O]

Seems an interesting topic about TDS not touched on yet is the detection. TDS-4 would not be made and promised unless it was going to be better than TDS-3 right ? any idiot could hire 4 programmers to make a beautiful new program with flashy GUI and oo look at the "features" and everything. Behind the scenes a couple of them have made great programs for analyzing trojans and removing trojans. But what does this new scanner actually do ? nothing sorry it cant detect anything except a few common junk and lots of false alarms :D but ppl will buy it ::)

[Jooske]

That would be complete lack of integrity. Not what DiamondCS stands for, so they won't go that slobby road. Of course they could have given us just something, but they want to give us something much better. And that's what we're all waiting for.

[worldcitizen]

Businesses like this NEED their customers and not to offer at least a month's notice was a huge slap in the face for those who waited for over 2 years for TDS 4. A little courtesy shown could have made the landing a lot smoother.

I think those who are really upset will speak not at this forum but with their credit cards. A courtesy that should have been shown wasn't and that is regrettable.

'Courtesy is the Lord of all Virtues'


Dave

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "Businesses like this NEED their customers and not to offer at least a month's notice was a huge slap in the face for those who waited for over 2 years for TDS 4. A little courtesy shown could have made the landing a lot smoother.

I think those who are really upset will speak not at this forum but with their credit cards. A courtesy that should have been shown wasn't and that is regrettable.

'Courtesy is the Lord of all Virtues'


Dave" }-

Hi Dave.

Stop and think about it. You are right businesses need their customers, but they also need revenue. I had already in my own mind questioned the need for a strictly trojan product. There was another thread on that issue. Given that change in the market do you go on developing a product where a majority of the customers that want it would be upgrades, and hence no revenue. Also as to the one month warning. Given the magnitude of the effort to keep the updates going, that effort could delay the bring to market something new for the month. DCS had a tough decision.

Another issue on the one month warning. If you go through these boards once you realize there is a lot of info on other products. I'd always seen good reviews on Boclean, but never bothered because I thought TDS-4 was coming and also I was suspicious that the memory scanning would load the system. Once I knew about TDS, I thought, why not give Boclean a try, just to see. Turned out it had no impact on my system. A one day process. I realize for some others there are other factors, that might not make it so easy, but given the free trials out there, I don't think a month would have been required.

I also suspect one impact of all the fuss about this is we might have seen the end of DCS offering free perpetual upgrades on future products. I sure would rethink it.

Pete

[---]

-{ Quote: "Couple of points.

2) Many of the posters keep referring to the tremendous damage DCS has done to themselves. Maybe, but then there are only 160+ posts in this thread, so even if each post represent one person, that isn't a big number.
" }-

That's a very short sighted way of looking at things. Unhappy customers are very quick to spread the news. Each person is going to influence a few other people against DCS. In the future, everytime DCS products are mentioned anywhere you can bet this fiasco is going to be brought up.

Worse yet, many people here are not typical but early adopters and 'experts' that the masses look up to. People who recommend lesser known products to others who would not have otherwise heard of. In particular DCS products. You don't want to alienate these people!

In this thread alone, I see many people who are getting turned off because they recently recommended this product to friends and now they are looking like a fool.

Turning any one of them against DCS, means the loss of more than one sale.

-{ Quote: "
Finding this forum isn't that hard, so if someone looked, they'd find us. Assuming DCS delivers future techically advanced products, and history suggests they will, my hunch is the long term damage won't be very significant.
" }-

A naive view. A PR nightmare can sink any company, regardless of the superiority of their products.

[worldcitizen]

-{ Quote: "I have just found out that TDS 3 is no longer being supported.

I can understand the reasons why the decision was made, the proverbial happens.

I use two other of their products, quite happily.

What I am not to happy about, why could you not E-mail your registered customers about it.

A point to consider in future please." }-

That's a very good question. Courtesy is a very, very important part of business as you are dealing with people. One should never just take others for granted.

Dave

[MIRROR]

I notice some genuine concerns & valid questions along with their inquiries have been left unsatisfactorily unanswered then that Topic was quickly considered closed by the same person who is dodging offering refunds for those who were denied the upgrade to TDS4. Dallen had some very pointed and valid concerns, i don't care if it's been 10 years, YOU MADE YOUR MONEY NOW WHY WON'T YOU HONOR THE AGREEMENTS?
Because this is how all the so called anti-spyware groups are turning ugly. Look only at Lavasoft to see the similarities. They made plenty of revenue and profited mostly from the generosity of others only to turn their back on them all after they got what they wanted. *puppy*



-{ Quote: "Well this thread has been left to go on for many days now, as you would probably expect from a record-breaking thread ... . Everything that could have been discussed has been discussed and we thank everyone for your support, thoughts and questions. Anyway as the thread topic has been exhausted it's now time to close the thread so we can all get back to work, as like I said we have some exciting things ahead and we want to get them out to you as soon as possible! If you have a question regarding other anti-trojan software please ask in the aptly-named Other Anti-Trojan Software forum.

Once again we encourage TDS3 users to take advantage of our free PE or PG license offer (as hundreds of you have already done, judging by the emails!), because how often do you get offered a free program? And please dont hesitate to email sales@diamondcs.com.au if you have any queries or if you've already registered both of those programs, but we can only offer this for a limited time so don't delay.

Best regards,
Wayne" }-

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: " i don't care if it's been 10 years, YOU MADE YOUR MONEY NOW WHY WON'T YOU HONOR THE AGREEMENTS?
" }-

Let see. You promise your boy a brand new car on his 18th birthday. Then when he is 17 1/2 you lose your job and are going thru savings a a big rate, and his 18th birthday comes around your going to take your mortgage and grocery money and buy him the car to honor your agreement. Right.

Lets be just a bit rational.

[Caver]

-{ Quote: "Let see. You promise your boy a brand new car on his 18th birthday. Then when he is 17 1/2 you lose your job and are going thru savings a a big rate, and his 18th birthday comes around your going to take your mortgage and grocery money and buy him the car to honor your agreement. Right.

Lets be just a bit rational." }-


Actually that would be down to planning, not in not loseing a job. But, not thinking and planning for that possibility.

[T2K]

-{ Quote: "Unhappy customers are very quick to spread the news.

Turning any one of them against DCS, means the loss of more than one sale.QUOTE]

This may be the most important point made in this thread yet.

A blemish on a company's reputation will spread around like a virus. From one person to 3 to 5 to 10.

A company must strive to satisfy every one of their customers or they will never maximize their sales potential. I see a lot of unhappy people here. A single person will influence everyone in their family and group of friends. That's not even mentioning forums and software review spots on the internet. That is a whole lot of (potentially) lost sales. All from a single, dissatisfied, customer.

I do wish DCS good luck, but they made a major blunder here.

Tom

[hardhead]

I have been a loyal DiamondCS coustomer for years.
I have to admit that I was surprised to find that the software was discontinued when I got back from vacation. I'm not here to talk about email, etc.... I took up the offer for the free Process Guard software. ;D

Best of luck with the new and up coming DiamondCS software for the future.

Regards,
hardyhar

[T2K]

-{ Quote: "

Another issue on the one month warning. If you go through these boards once you realize there is a lot of info on other products. I'd always seen good reviews on Boclean, but never bothered because I thought TDS-4 was coming and also I was suspicious that the memory scanning would load the system. Once I knew about TDS, I thought, why not give Boclean a try, just to see. Turned out it had no impact on my system. A one day process. I realize for some others there are other factors, that might not make it so easy, but given the free trials out there, I don't think a month would have been required.

Pete" }-

Glad you like BOClean, but I'd never make a quick jump to a program of such importance. I'd have to give a serious try to all the competing programs and keep them all installed for a few days (each) to see how they behave. Play around with different settings and see how it all works out. Then make my mind up later on.

I am not an impulse buyer and, no matter how many good reviews I may read, I still have to try the competition. That takes time.

There is no excuse for discontinuing TDS without notice.

There is also the issue of insincerity. The new program DCS is promising sounds like TDS-4 with a changed name. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like being lied to. I do not accept the explanation that TDS is dead and something new is on horizon. It is TDS-4. I don't even care about the free upgrade (3 to 4), but I just don't like being told obvious lies to my face.

What is also a factor here is that DCS has pushed away potential Anti-Trojan software customers. People are not going to wait forever for the "new, secret" program. If someone buys A2 or Ewido now, why in hell would they run to buy whatever DCS puts out when (or rather IF...) they do? Lost sales.

I don't know if this was all Wayne's idea, but this whole situation (how it was handled) is completely ridiculous.

Tom

[hollywoodpc]

Peter .
Let's see . How rude of you to compare apples to oranges and get on someone about it . In NO way is it the same ! NO WAY . With all DUE respect to DCS , they are STILL in business and , AFTER many long YEARS , THEY decided it was too much to continue to do . It is called piss poor management . A man losing his job is completely different and I take it personally that anyone can be so rude as to say that to someone else . Get the facts straight before you start telling people how wrong they are . Very sad !

[Juggernaut]

I think this thread has run it's course and has become redundant. Time for a mod to close it IMO.

[Mike Stephens]

Like many, I was shocked to find out today (SUN) about the TDS-3/4 situation. I would be VERY reluctant to take a free license for any of their DCS software regardless of how much they tell me it is not being discontinued also--- after all, actions speak louder than words., and their actions during this time with TDS-3 have finally revealed what many suspected for years--- there never was, and never will be TDS-4, at least under that name. If you recall about six months ago, DCS made mention of possibly having to charge for subscriptions to the active-guard function TDS-4 and were immediately shot down by folks who wanted them to honor their promises when they purchased their software. I beleive it was then, many months ago, that the decision was made to go this route, but as long as they could continue to get mileage with TDS-3, they would continue to sell the program. A very disingenuous move on their part-- I guess they didn't send out emails to all us folks who have been with them for years because they were hoping to many of us would just disappear and go away. Now they want me to take licenses for their other programs as compensation. Sorry guys, you have lost ALL credibility. I will be writing you tomorrow for a cash refund-- I hope others follow suit and are not duped by your offers for other software that will also soon meet a hasty demise without warning.

[Atomas31]

Hi Wayne,

This is also something of concern, since you didn't email none of your actual owner of TDS-3, can you tell me How does people who own TDS-3 but never came to your forum or any forums for that matter, will know about the discontinuation of TDS-3 and how will they be able to take on your offer????


Best regards,
Atomas31

[Snook]

What! No TDS-4....! And to think I was already dream'n of TDS-5!

[Carver]

I am using a² and Ewido.I got no Email, nothing, Zilch, bubkiss, bums rush, letdown, and I am registered user of TDS-3.

[beetlejuice69]

I`m using a² also and find it a great little program. Waiting for OA to come out to get at that, cuz I think that`ll make a great TDS replacement. ;)

[StevieO]

Now TDS is no longer supported etc, i think it would be a very nice jesture if it was made available for DL again. And a FREE Key issued so people could still make use of the program as is.

Would everybody like to see that happen, and can you Please make it happen DCS ?

StevieO

[good idea]

That's a very good idea StevieO.

[Caratacus]

While searching through old mail for TDS3 keyfile I came across this:

-{ Quote: "Your registration has been successfully authorised.
Welcome on board, Licensed TDS Operator!

Your registration will be used to enhance TDS even further
- YOU'LL benefit from it, not just now with your licensed
version of TDS, but also with our future software releases. " }-

How poignant!

[Juggernaut]

-{ Quote: "but also with our future software releases" }-

That implies software in general. Software of which PG or PE could be described as. It does not name TDS-3 specifically.

[Caratacus]

Good legalistic reply - it literally does not explicitly specify which future software! I had picked up on that. But what about the issue of "benefit"? I can hardly "benefit" from PG and PE if I already paid for them.

But I'm not complaining, mind you, though I do wish I could be compensated with something other than PG or PE, which I already have (as well as WG and CryptoSuite - purchased when it was a DCS product). I have no friend savvy enough to benefit from a free PG or PE licence, so I can't even go that route. But them's the breaks.

At least I have the opportunity and motive now to explore other AT solutions, and am enjoying trialling a2 and Ewido. So that's a little ray of sunshine, eh? Soon enough I'll pay up for one of them, and wait to see how long it lasts.

[steverio]

-{ Quote: "Good legalistic reply - it literally does not explicitly specify which future software! I had picked up on that. But what about the issue of "benefit"? I can hardly "benefit" from PG and PE if I already paid for them.

But I'm not complaining, mind you, though I do wish I could be compensated with something other than PG or PE, which I already have (as well as WG and CryptoSuite - purchased when it was a DCS product). I have no friend savvy enough to benefit from a free PG or PE licence, so I can't even go that route. But them's the breaks.

At least I have the opportunity and motive now to explore other AT solutions, and am enjoying trialling a2 and Ewido. So that's a little ray of sunshine, eh? Soon enough I'll pay up for one of them, and wait to see how long it lasts." }-


Most of the savvy ones I know of are right here in this forum. An extra copy of PG or PE is better than nothing. Maybe later you can use it on another computer or find someone smart enough to give it to. I don't know of any friends either to benefit from PG or PE. :-\

[Andreas1]

Us usual: first of all understand that I am happy with the decision made by DCS, still in sympathy with the company and looking forward to what they will be developing.

Peter brought up good points - but I have to admit I don't agree at all. (No offense to you , Peter ::) )

-{ Quote: "
1) I can understand people feeling like it would have been nice to have received an email informing them of the decision, but I am guessing that may have not proved practical. In my business I maintain contact with my clients by email, and phone. But I don't have the need to mass broadcast email, so I have no means to do so. On the few occasions, when I need to send the same email to all 90 of my clients it takes time, in my case a little less than an hour. Sure I could cut that down, but it just isn't worth it for the number of times I do it. If all of a sudden I had to send several thousand emails, I would really think long and hard about if it was really necessary, and/or practical.
" }-
then what about this:
-{ Quote: "
Keep up-to-date with the free DiamondCS Newsletter!
Sign up for our free newsletter to stay up to date with all new DiamondCS releases and updates! Newsletters are infrequent and only released when significant releases or happenings occur so they won't clog your email account.
" }-



-{ Quote: "
2) Many of the posters keep referring to the tremendous damage DCS has done to themselves. Maybe, but then there are only 160+ posts in this thread, so even if each post represent one person, that isn't a big number.
" }-
What should be considered is not only ppl here being disencouraged from buying future products, not only lurkers who feel the same but aren't reflected in the numbers of posts (maybe they are covered by counting every post as one person, maybe not), and not even these ppl talking their friends or other security-forum-visitors out of it, [b]but[/i] also that these people might have more or less google-prominent websites about how to secure ones computer that they might be taking down or even use to tell people not to go with DCS. ...or might put up new anti-dcs websites with a name like www.diamondcs.sucks.com and clever search engine handling...
Now I don't think this is likely to happen, but you just can't play down the possible damage by mentioning the number of posts here.


-{ Quote: "
3) There also has been much criticism of the way DCS has handled this. I would be curious how many of the posters expressing this, have themselves had to deal with similiar situations. I have, and sometimes you have to do things you don't like, but still have to do them, and do them in a way you don't like. The old adage, till you walk in a mans shoes you really can't judge him, does apply.
" }-
I have never had to manage something like it, but I like it when it goes like this: When a piece of software, essential to the reliable working of one's working environment and part of the essential value of which is updates (like TDS, but also like OSs), is stopped being developed, people are giving notice beforehand as to when this is going to happen. Of course people who didn't pay hundreds of dollars for the software might not be actually entitled to this, but I thought Customer Care was about not putting customers into awkward situations no matter how much they've paid -- when it can be avoided at a reasonable price.
Maybe the comparison is not apt, but both M$ and Novell (SuSE) announce when they will stop supporting old versions of their OS -- waaaay beforehand. (and that's valid even for users of SuSE linux who didn't pay anything for getting the software. It's simply not a question of price, when the means to do it are readily available, as I take them to have been in our case as well.)

-{ Quote: "
PS. The local phone company did something similiar to me in my business, and I was hot about it myself. Being mad didn't change anything, so I had to move on, did so, and actually found a better service. Did it cost me anything? Yep. Did the phone company reimburse me? Nope. We just have to cope." }-
Now either the phone company doesn't care about you as a customer or, if they do, then as a direct consequence of it they should think about how to make you like them again. And we all agree that DCS is thinking about how to keep their customers happy, else we wouldn't have the PG/PE offers. Then what we're having here is that customers are giving (valuable) feedback as to which means are likely to achieve that and which are not.

In the suggestion that a notice beforehand would have been nicer than none, I am not even implying that this was an available option. Technically it was - see newsletter, homepage change etc. But there might be more behind it which might have prevented it (tough luck both on the company and its customers, but that happens), but then again as Wayne said, it is reasonable not to speculate -- neither in favour nor against DCS's way of handling things. Thus my point is simply it would have been nicer if...


Cheers,
Andreas

[Andreas1]

talking of non-disclosure-agreements...

we haven't heard back from anyone yet who went to get a refund. but that might not be a bad sign (if they were turned away, we would for sure have heard about it ;) )

and - has anyone heard anything from Gavin recently?

(both points which have already been brought up very early by an anon poster, but strangely enough they weren't adressed yet.)



Andreas

[Notok]

-{ Quote: "and - has anyone heard anything from Gavin recently?" }-I'd like to know that as well.. that was one of the first questions I had, although didn't post..

[FanJ]

-{ Quote: "
and - has anyone heard anything from Gavin recently?
" }-

Hi Andreas and Notok,

A few days after TDS was discontinued, I got a very nice email from Gavin.

You can also look at Gavin's profile here at the board:
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/member.php?u=260
;)

I certainly hope that all is well with Wayne and Gavin, and I definitely wish them and DCS all the very best !!!
I guess they are very busy.
I'm looking forward to whatever new program DCS might come up with.

Cheers, Jan.

[spy1]

-{ Quote: "I'm looking forward to whatever new program DCS might come up with.

Cheers, Jan." }-

I'm not. Once you totally go back on promises you made as a business, screwing your customers, you're all done in my book. Pete

[beetlejuice69]

-{ Quote: "I'm not. Once you totally go back on promises you made as a business, screwing your customers, you're all done in my book. Pete" }-

Yup, they`re scratched off my Christmas list too.

[Jooske]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Let's just wait for new developments.
And i would not encourage people posting possible refunds etc as those are private business matters in my opinion.
Give the guys a chance to make things right and everybody happy. At the moment there is not much else to do.
People are taking up scipting so if anybody can create a database editor ..?

[Carver]

-{ Quote: "I'd like to know that as well.. that was one of the first questions I had, although didn't post.." }-

For that matter has anybody seen Wayne, when was the last time he even loged in? I realize he must be busy with damage control, but not even loging in to monitor what is going on.

[Carver]

-{ Quote: "For that matter has anybody seen Wayne, when was the last time he even loged in? I realize he must be busy with damage control, but not even loging in to monitor what is going on." }-
Sorry I quoted the Wrong post. :O

[Hard_Warrior]

-{ Quote: "I'm not. Once you totally go back on promises you made as a business, screwing your customers, you're all done in my book. Pete" }-

I'd have to agree. As consumers we'd be daft to support this sort of behavior with continued loyalty.

[tutankamon]

Hi all, Those who wish to leave DCS because of the discontinued updates to TDS3, and the loss of TDS4, please do so. Those of us who continue to have faith will wait for the new programs. Enough said!

[tuatara]

I do think all has been said regarding this topic ...

;)

[FanJ]

-{ Quote: "I'm not. Once you totally go back on promises you made as a business, screwing your customers, you're all done in my book. Pete" }-

Hi Pete, my dear old friend,

I can understand that people feel sad, disappointed, angry.

Once a family member of mine bought a kitchen for a new home.
The kitchen-company went down, and she had already paid some money.
Of course she was very concerned ...
(happily arrangements could be made).
Well, any analogy goes somewhere wrong.

As I said earlier, I myself feel sad that TDS is discontinued.
TDS-3 was a very important part of my security.
And I've tried to help others when they had questions (and if I didn't know the answer, I asked DCS to have a look).

While I feel sad, how must the DCS guys feel?
Wasn't TDS Wayne's baby?
Didn't spend Gavin an incredible amount of time in publishing new definitions?

I did buy all the DCS programs that I can run on my system; and I bought a few for friends.
Many years TDS-3 protected my system.
I learned a lot from TDS-3.
I learned a lot from all fellow members at the private board (and here at the Wilders board).
I learned a lot from DCS.
And I am really thankfully for that !

I was lucky.
I didn't have a licence for ProcessGuard (still running W98SE).
I got a free licence for ProcessGuard from DCS (that was the email from Gavin I was referring to a few postings above).
So I might migrate from my old W98SE to a newer one to be able to use it.
And if I do so, I have to buy either an XP licence or a new PC.

Others might be in a different situation than me.
Others who have for example already all the DCS programs.
DCS made an offer, we all have read about it.
And you can contact DCS in private.

For those who have been using TDS for years:
Without any intention to offend anyone, please allow me to say that you were using it without paying a yearly subscription.

For those who bought TDS-3 very recently:
I really do feel sorry for you, and I mean that !
All I can advice is, please use in some way the offer from DCS and/or try to contact DCS.

Did DCS break promises?
It's up to every user to decide for her/him self about that.
I can only speak for myself.
For me, that question is not very important.
If the question is, either DCS surviving without TDS or seeing DCS going down, then my choice is very quickly made.
I do wish that DiamondCS will survive.
For me it is far and far more important that the DCS guys will have something to live from.
The personal, human, view is for me far more important.
I do wish Wayne and Gavin and DiamondCS ALL the very best !!!

Once again I would like to thank ALL at DCS (now and in the past) !!!

I do keep my TDS-3 installed.
I know that its definitions might become outdated.
I use BOClean for resident AT.

My wish is that we all might see things in perspective.
My wish is that there might be peace in our hearts.
Warm regards, Jan.

[Leitchy]

-{ Quote: "I'm not. Once you totally go back on promises you made as a business, screwing your customers, you're all done in my book. Pete" }-
-{ Quote: "Yup, they`re scratched off my Christmas list too." }-
I think you guys are over-reacting...badly over-reacting. ::)

I don't see that DCS has harmed anyone, really. There's a difference between "harm", and an adverse effect. Yes, some people have been adversely affected by the decision, but not many. Only those that recently purchase TDS3, as far as I can see. Anyone else will have used the product for some time (to pick an arbitrary figure, say 9 months or more), so they will have received all the value from the product that they're entitled to, at least, IMO.

Besides, the amounts of money that individuals expended are pretty small bananas in the larger scheme of things (what was the cost of TDS3; $30??). To be honest, I don't see any point in being so p!ssed off with a company that I ignore the chance they might produce a killer product to add to my protection at some time in the future.

This kind of stuff happens; my philosophy is to get over it and move on.

[---]

-{ Quote: "

Besides, the amounts of money that individuals expended are pretty small bananas in the larger scheme of things (what was the cost of TDS3; $30??).
." }-

You don't get it. It's not that Spy1 is personally affected, I'm sure he has a load full of security products, the lost of one TDS-3 is nothing.

It's the loss of reputation and trust that comes from recommending the product to others more trust you and your recommendations and then suddenly out of the blue this happens.

Another thing, those of you who seem so interested on refunds and whether other people got it or not, I highly recommend you go and ask Wayne yourself.

I don't sure why you are so interested in whether *other* people got refunds. Sure seems to me like you are just trying to stir things up.

Besides, if the people are unhappy that they eventually didn't get refunds, they will post here!

[Paranoid2000]

-{ Quote: "Besides, the amounts of money that individuals expended are pretty small bananas in the larger scheme of things (what was the cost of TDS3; $30??). To be honest, I don't see any point in being so p!ssed off with a company that I ignore the chance they might produce a killer product to add to my protection at some time in the future." }-This may be a fair comment for individuals, but businesses are another matter. Alternatives for TDS-3 need to be tested, purchased (which could quite easily take more than a week with some companies) and rolled out across corporate networks.

Now DCS certainly do have the right (and indeed the obligation) to discontinue a product if they feel its continued support is unfeasible. But to do so with no notice for one that requires frequent updates to maintain protection is highly unprofessional - the proper approach as others have noted would have been to make the announcement, halt new sales but provide updates for a short while thereafter (a month should be enough).

It may be that DiamondCS have some internal crisis ruling this out (e.g. a severe cashflow problem or staff issue) in which case jettisoning TDS-3 may be a simple question of survival - in that case, the criticism should be of not making this decision some months ago to allow for a more graceful exit.

[Carver]

Besides, the amounts of money that individuals expended are pretty small bananas in the larger scheme of things (what was the cost of TDS3; $30??). To be honest, I don't see any point in being so p!ssed off with a company that I ignore the chance they might produce a killer product to add to my protection at some time in the future.


I payed $49.95 in June, I don't consider that small bananas.

[beetlejuice69]

-{ Quote: "I think you guys are over-reacting...badly over-reacting. ::)

I don't see that DCS has harmed anyone, really. There's a difference between "harm", and an adverse effect.

Besides, the amounts of money that individuals expended are pretty small bananas in the larger scheme of things (what was the cost of TDS3; $30??). To be honest, I don't see any point in being so p!ssed off with a company that I ignore the chance they might produce a killer product to add to my protection at some time in the future.

This kind of stuff happens; my philosophy is to get over it and move on." }-

You missed the boat on this one. It`s not the money or that they took it off the market,(at least for me) who cares? There`s plenty of others out there that sell good software. My beef is the way it was done to the customers and then we were just writen off without as much as a thank you. Anyway sh*t happens but I don`t have to step in it.

[Hard_Warrior]

-{ Quote: "Hi all, Those who wish to leave DCS because of the discontinued updates to TDS3, and the loss of TDS4, please do so. Those of us who continue to have faith will wait for the new programs. Enough said!" }-

This sort of attitude is ridiculous. You could have just as easily maintained your "faith" in DCS without thumbing your nose at anyone. Flamboyant pandering isn’t going to get you anything more than the rest of us.

[AAPlus2]

This has become so sad

the best to you all

[StevieO]

AAPlus2,

Too true, maybe there isn't much left to say from Users. Unless there are still some who havn't yet heard about it.

I'm still surprised people don't know about the offers DCS have made to compensate them. If they email DCS then they can come to some arrangement over this.

Events never stand still for too long these days, for all sorts of reasons. I find it's better to do whatever you can as quickly as possible, then move on just as quickly. Why prolong the agony ?

Best to all.


StevieO

[worldcitizen]

Very sad state of affairs all this and doesn't make for a good launch of the new products and website to come.

One other strategy which DCS use wrongfully is that of secrecy. While they may think it necessary to be secretive about their upcoming products, most software companies usually announce them well in advance so that prospective customers won't go out and buy something else thus losing a potential sale. Apart from the disenchanted, and there are many, there will also be those who will buy something else before the new DCS product comes out and may find it's either a similar product, overlaps it or is incompatible and not worth ditching the one they just bought to buy the new DCS one. Lost sales - DCS are you listening?

Knowing what it may be would make me think twice about getting something similar but if they don't give me a clue and I go out and buy something else then I'm not going to even consider their new program especially if it makes my program redundant or is similar in any way.

Also, the umpteen dozen people who don't attend this forum and suddenly found their TDS 3 not working will most likely never buy anything again from DCS. Emailing is FREE and only takes a bit of time and consideration.

When there's a new product to sell I wonder then if they'll 'forget' to email??
I also wonder if it was only us smaller clients who were not emailed but that large corporations who use their software were informed??? We may not be their real bread and butter, just extra free 'tech support' and those who really mattered may not have been overlooked. I don't think DCS is solely dependent on us so we may not be all that important in the larger scheme of things which would explain a lot.

Dave

[dallen]

My question to all of you is how many of you are crying just to hear yourselves cry? It is my opinion that there are extreme loyalists in this forum, including many of those that have been crying for the last week, that would remain loyal to Wayne (and DCS) regardless of his (their) actions. I truly believe that if Wayne (and DCS) decided to all out screw his customers out of money (which for the record I don't believe to be the case here), then people would rant and rave in this forum but many of those same people would come right back for their place in line to pull out their credit cards again when the next round of "software" is released. My question to all of you is this: How many of you are simply blowing off steam and how many of you are prepared to speak with your wallets (or purses ladies) no matter how good the software is that he (they) release? If you are truley upset, then why continue to be a customer? Having the 2nd best protection on the market guarding your system still puts you ahead of 90% of the computer users out there and secures your system more than adequately.

Actually, possibly for the first time, I agreed with a statement made by Wayne. I'm not going to go find it to quote it, but it said something like this:
Do you think you actually deserve a refund when you've used the product for over a year?
I thought about it and decided that he's right. I don't. For those of you that did purchase the product more recently, why be upset. Either Wayne will refund your money to your satisfaction (or give you a license) or you call your credit card company and have them isssue a charge-back on your behalf. Let the credit card company advocate for you, that's their job. For the rest of you...I say stop complaining and speak with your wallets (or purses) or get in line behind Jooske.

[Carver]

-{ Quote: "My question to all of you is how many of you are crying just to hear yourselves cry? It is my opinion that there are extreme loyalists in this forum, including many of those that have been crying for the last week, that would remain loyal to Wayne (and DCS) regardless of his (their) actions. I truly believe that if Wayne (and DCS) decided to all out screw his customers out of money (which for the record I don't believe to be the case here), then people would rant and rave in this forum but many of those same people would come right back for their place in line to pull out their credit cards again when the next round of "software" is released. My question to all of you is this: How many of you are simply blowing off steam and how many of you are prepared to speak with your wallets (or purses ladies) no matter how good the software is that he (they) release? If you are truley upset, then why continue to be a customer? Having the 2nd best protection on the market guarding your system still puts you ahead of 90% of the computer users out there and secures your system more than adequately.


Actually, possibly for the first time, I agreed with a statement made by Wayne. I'm not going to go find it to quote it, but it said something like this:
Do you think you actually deserve a refund when you've used the product for over a year?
I thought about it and decided that he's right. I don't. For those of you that did purchase the product more recently, why be upset. Either Wayne will refund your money to your satisfaction (or give you a license) or you call your credit card company and have them isssue a charge-back on your behalf. Let the credit card company advocate for you, that's their job. For the rest of you...I say shut-up and speak with your wallets (or purses) or get in line behind Jooske." }-

The proof of the pudding is when Wayne releases the new piece of softwear and who pulls out their credit card, and until Wayne anounces what and when that will be. I'll be sticking with free utilitys, and I be looking what other people think as well as any reviews of the software and thinking twice and three times before I recommend it to a friend. DCS makes good softwear, its his bussness judgement that I believe is in question.

[JW Clements]

-{ Quote: "Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Let's just wait for new developments.
..?" }-

Unfortunately that phrase "just wait" is one we've heard too often to give us a warm cozy feeling. A name and a reliable date of release would be much better.

[FanJ]

-{ Quote: "

<snip>

or get in line behind Jooske." }-

Dallen,


I want to defend Jooske in the most strongest way here.
You have no idea how much time she spended to help people with questions.
She does NOT work for DCS; she did it all in her free time.


Regards, Jan.

[dallen]

I updated my post with a better choice of words.
-{ Quote: "You have no idea how much time she spended to help people with questions." }-My comment about Jooske wasn't meant as an attack on her dedication. On the contrary, it was a testiment to her dedication and loyalty.

[FanJ]

Hi Dallen,

Thanks !

I edited my posting too ;) (I didn't want it to quote what you had changed; fair is fair!).

Sorry Dallen that I misunderstood your words about Jooske :-[
It happens sometimes to me; it is my fault !
I would like to thank you for your warm words to her !!!

Thanks and sorry again, Dallen.

Best regards, Jan.

[FanJ]

For Dallen:

Thanks Dallen for your IM; much appreciated !

I've just replied ;)

Cheers, Jan.

[Jooske]

Naming a program name or release date or price or other promisses is exactly the mistake Wayne is not making another time he wrote in his original message.
Hence me saying "just let's wait for further developments".

Developments for me are the programming process as well how things evolve, btw.

I'm not aware of any software with lifelong free updates and even free upgrades; most of them at least ask a yearly renewal fee. At the moment Wayne has at least offered options to make it right as much as possible with the current releases. He could have limited that choice to people who recently bought TDS and all the rest of us keep waiting for next products and most probably interesting offers with that.
Now we can discuss in the ProcessGuard and WormGuard forum if we would expect free lifetime upgrades there too or are willing to spend some yearly renewalfee per program or for all the software and goodies, free support, kind of DiamondCS membership with a VIP option for first served support or such.
How about that idea. Thanks for considering it, this should probably need a new thread.

[worldcitizen]

-{ Quote: ""just let's wait for further developments".
" }-

I feel very uncomfortable about this advice too because that's exactly what we were told about TDS 4 for years and that ended up being a huge slap in the face of DCS customers so I feel very uneasy about that sort of advice now.

Dave

[Jooske]

If you read Wayne's comments you see how painful it is for him and the team as well. And of course they all at DiamondCS are facing the effects of it. Fortunately they go on with double speed to give us the best they can.

Somewhere in the thread a few times was asked about Gavin's wellbeing: he's doing fine and very occupied to take care of our security, and is visiting the forums, even though not posting much at the moment.

Have you seen ProcessGuard and Port Explorer here on http://www.windowsmarketplace.com/results.aspx?text=diamondcs
BTW?

[Hard_Warrior]

-{ Quote: "Developments for me are the programming process as well how things evolve, btw." }-

Agreed, but adhered to timetables are the mark of a well-organized team. I'm sure that a lackadaisical approach to milestones played at least some role in the demise of TDS-4. Moreover, I think it would be positive marketing, in the face of what I see as a fairly negative atmosphere, for DCS to offer some informational tidbits about future plans, if not prospective release dates.

-{ Quote: "I'm not aware of any software with lifelong free updates and even free upgrades; most of them at least ask a yearly renewal fee." }-

Which is why it was a mistake to offer such a scheme in the first place. For the record, I would gladly pay a subscription fee for aggressively maintained software, especially security SW. ;)

-{ Quote: "Now we can discuss in the ProcessGuard and WormGuard forum if we would expect free lifetime upgrades there too or are willing to spend some yearly renewalfee per program or for all the software and goodies, free support, kind of DiamondCS membership with a VIP option for first served support or such." }-

;D I'd rather just see an official notification from DCS saying that a yearly renewal will be required from this point, and that for my money I could expect first-rate service with all the bells-and-whistles.

[Don Pelotas]

-{ Quote: " ;D I'd rather just see an official notification from DCS saying that a yearly renewal will be required from this point, and that for my money I could expect first-rate service with all the bells-and-whistles." }-
As long as the old versions are left fully functioning. Then i can't see anything wrong with paying a small fee for an upgrade to a newer version, but so far development pace hasn't exactly impressed, so there would have to be some new features etc for me to consider buying the upgrade. :)

[Blackcat]

More discussion over at grc.com here (http://www.grc.com/x/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.security.software&item=108914&utag=) and here. (http://www.grc.com/x/news.exe?cmd=article&group=grc.security.software&item=109064&utag=)

[dallen]

-{ Quote: "I'm still surprised people don't know about the offers DCS have made to compensate them. If they email DCS then they can come to some arrangement over this." }-
-{ Quote: "One other strategy which DCS use wrongfully is that of secrecy." }-
I couldn't agree more with both of these statements. The logical step is to ask people what they've been given/offered and how they feel about the compensation/reconciliatory offer. I've started a thread on the topic HERE (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=91821)


edited to fix name of poster being quoted in quote #1 - Detox

[LowWaterMark]

-{ Quote: "I couldn't agree more with both of these statements. The logical step is to ask people what they've been given/offered and how they feel about the compensation/reconciliatory offer. I've started a thread on the topic HERE (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=91821) " }-I've closed that thread because the private dialogs between individual customers and Wayne are just that - private. Since every circumstance is going to be different, we're not going to open up an endless debate comparing who got what and why.

[dallen]

-{ Quote: "I've closed that thread because the private dialogs between individual customers and Wayne are just that - private. Since every circumstance is going to be different, we're not going to open up an endless debate comparing who got what and why." }-Of course you won't allow such a "debate" to occur. Why call it a debate and not term it more accurately as an exchange of information. This company operates in a shroud of secrecy and has for quite some time. The reason you don't want people comparing compensation and reconciliatory offers is because you are trying to minimize your expenses. If everyone were given fair compensation, it would cost you more than if you give compensation on a "case-by-case" basis. You will claim that every case is different, but we both know that isn't true. Honestly, how much difference is there between someone who has owned the software for 1 year and someone who has owned it for 9 months. You will say the difference is 3 months, ha ha ha. But beyond the simple arithmetic, lies a more complex issue. How many of those three months were spent talking about the upcoming release and the complex development? How many of those months were speant telling concerned customers to be quite and that it will be here when it get's here?

[dallen]

Since I can't edit my last posting, I will finish my posting here. How are we to know that those months of delay weren't intentional so that it could later be said that we'd have used TDS-3 for 3 months too long to qualify for a partial refund. The lack of effective communication causes us to believe this to be a possibility.

[Atomas31]

-{ Quote: "I've closed that thread because the private dialogs between individual customers and Wayne are just that - private. Since every circumstance is going to be different, we're not going to open up an endless debate comparing who got what and why." }-

Lowwatermark,

Who are you do decide what information we can or can not share with one another? As for the dialogs between individual customers and Wayne as I am concern it is inexistant since Mr Wayne doesn't even bother to answer my emails...

DCS personnal may not want to communicate with their customer is one thing, but the fact that you simply censor customer who want to share their experience with DCS (or Wayne) in regard of the actual situation is totally unacceptable and surelly unappropriated.


Best regards,
Atomas31

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Atomas,
Ive answered literally hundreds of emails this week so i'm not sure which one yours is, feel free to send it to my via private message if you like.

Best regards,
Wayne

[Antarctica]

As for myself, I already sent two Emails to DCS and I didn't even got
a confirmation message from them that they received my request. ???

[ellison64]

-{ Quote: "Lowwatermark,

Who are you do decide what information we can or can not share with one another? As for the dialogs between individual customers and Wayne as I am concern it is inexistant since Mr Wayne doesn't even bother to answer my emails...

DCS personnal may not want to communicate with their customer is one thing, but the fact that you simply censor customer who want to share their experience with DCS (or Wayne) in regard of the actual situation is totally unacceptable and surelly unappropriated.


Best regards,
Atomas31" }-

Lowatermark is an administrator here and therfore (rightly or wrongly) entitled to close (or in my case remove)posts.We all have to accept that.Personally however,i wish the administrators and moderators would not just close but remove the TDS4 stickies as it is quite nauseating to see them still on view , while quite legetimate posts are removed or closed
ellison

[StevieO]

Actually Dallen this was Originally Posted by me not AAPlus2

I'm still surprised people don't know about the offers DCS have made to compensate them. If they email DCS then they can come to some arrangement over this.

Regards,


StevieO

[dallen]

The posting has been locked, or I would fix the mistake. StevieO, I apologize for the misquote and appreciate you bringing it to my attention. Also, AAPlus2 please don't take offense if I attributed something to you that you didn't say. It was an honest mistake.

[Detox]

NP - consider it fixed.

[Infinity]

-{ Quote: "The posting has been locked, or I would fix the mistake. StevieO, I apologize for the misquote and appreciate you bringing it to my attention. Also, AAPlus2 please don't take offense if I attributed something to you that you didn't say. It was an honest mistake." }-



edited,

ooopsieee daisy ...

[Marco K.]

I sent an original request for a partial cash refund and was offered the comp software package, which of course, I am not interested in. My second request for a partial cash refund has thus far been unanswered. (Going on 5 days). I expect they are figuring on how to cope with the numerous responses for cash or partial-cash refunds.

[dallen]

My guess is that you will have a better chance of getting them to part with TDS-4 than you will with cash.

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Post removed due to conversation moving to private messages

[Paranoid2000]

-{ Quote: "My guess is that you will have a better chance of getting them to part with TDS-4 than you will with cash." }-This is a somewhat less than useful comment - it should be obvious that DiamondCS have got a lot of work cut out in terms of dealing with new licences, refunds and customer feedback not to mention keeping abreast of forum threads like this, which means there are going to be delays in resolving cases. While criticism can be made of the method in which this closure was made, stretching this to an attack on a company's ethics and general business practice is uncalled for, unless you have some specific and documentary evidence to the contrary...

[dallen]

-{ Quote: "This is a somewhat less than useful comment..." }-It seems that you are correct.
-{ Quote: "Post removed due to conversation moving to private messages" }-This is true. Wayne and I did have a private exchange and the contents of that exchange should remain private.

However, I will just say that it's no secret that I don't agree with some of the business practices that have gone on in the past and especially recently. I do feel that Wayne and DCS have produced some of the best software on the market in certain niches. I know that I don't give DCS very much credit in these forums. It may seem that all I do is complain. The reason for this is that I see a company that has great tallent and potential and it frustrates me. Why? In some respects their customer service is awesome (among the best in the industry in my opinion), but in some respects I feel that they've really let their customers down and it almost seems like they don't even appreciate them. I've seen DCS do some great things and I've seem them do horrible things and I thought that by trying to let them know when they were making mistakes that I could help them change directions. For example, I've always felt that this company would improve by changing their strategy and policy regarding communication with their customers. I thought that maybe if enough of the customers complained about this issue together we could influence Wayne and DCS to change their thinking on this issue. I was wrong. I have done nothing but upset people and for that I am sorry. Whether I was wrong about DCS as a company, whether I was wrong to think so highly of this company, or whether I was simply just wrong in my methods...I don't know. What I do know is that my efforts to bring about change, which I still believe is necessary, have failed and that I will stop trying.

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: "What I do know is that my efforts to bring about change, which I still believe is necessary, have failed and that I will stop trying." }-
Dallen,

I thank you for your generous offer and accept your decision, to stop flaming against DCS.

[Sith Lord]

dallen do you run a software business? if you dont then who are you to tell diamond that theyre right or wrong? its their software so i think they know more about the situation then you do!

[BlueZannetti]

To all:

Let's keep the discussion focused on the topic of the thread.

DCS customers and interested parties certainly have every right to voice their opinions on the subject matter of this thread, with the clear understanding that topics centering on internal operational matters, as with any commercial enterprise under any situation, are really not open for public debate by the company. By extension, efforts to speculate along these lines by us will not have a productive result since it will always remain unsupported idle speculation.

Finally, please avoid comments of a personal nature. Again, in the long run, they are not a productive addition to the discussion.

Thanks in advance.

Blue

[Carver]

-{ Quote: "dallen do you run a software business? if you dont then who are you to tell diamond that theyre right or wrong? its their software so i think they know more about the situation then you do!" }-

Maybe Wayne could let us know just what the situation is so we could make better sugestions, but the final say is up to him.