TDS software line discontinued

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Folks I know this will come as a bit of a shock to some of you, but the TDS software line is to be discontinued, effective immediately. This is one of the biggest decisions I've ever had to make as the director of DiamondCS, so it was not a decision that was taken lightly, but a decision that will ultimately benefit you, our customers. For a full understanding, please read on.

So why on earth did we make a crazy decision like this?!? I hear you ask...

The security industry is an extremely dynamic industry and you never know just what will be around the corner. This dynamic attribute demands that security companies grow and evolve with the times, and when big decisions need to be made, we're not afraid to make them if it means that you - our customers - will benefit the most. Software comes and goes, TDS isn't the first and it won't be the last, but the time has come to develop even more powerful security systems using improved methodologies. It is the future - signature scanning is not.

Winding the clock back, TDS was first developed when the very first remote access trojans for Windows were released. This was in the mid-late 90s, and there were just a few of them initially (Sokets de Troie, Acid Shivers, NetBus, Back Orifice) so it was easy for even a single person to keep on top of the situation. Today in 2005 there are tens of thousands of trojans alone with dozens being released on a daily basis, many often incorporating new offensive techniques against security software (one of the reasons ProcessGuard was developed - security software was taking an absolute battering before it was introduced). A lot of work has been put into the development of TDS4, but we have ultimately decided that we will not release it to the public. Not much development time has actually been wasted as a lot of technologies developed for TDS4 will be seen in our next product release, which we're keeping a tight lid on for now but that is literally just around the corner. So why discontinue a product as successful as TDS?

The answer in a nutshell: Time, cost, constantly tied-up resources, and a declining market. Database-driven scanners (ie. anti-trojan scanners, anti-virus scanners and so on) are not "conventional" programs. By conventional I mean the developer works on a program, releases it, occassionally releases updates for it, but is otherwise free to work on other projects once the project is initially complete. Scanners on the otherhand require DAILY fulltime maintenance, and with the world of viruses and rootkits becoming more complex the time & resource demands are constantly increasing. The end result is that we've been tied down to this one program, which has prevented us from being able to develop so many other security programs, many of which would be considered superior to TDS in their own right, yet because we're tied to TDS we've been unable to pursue our other ideas. If you look at the other anti-trojan developers you'll see the same thing - they're not free to pursue other creations because they're tied down to their scanner. Additionally, it costs a lot of money to pay somebody to maintain the signature database as well, so not only does it require a lot of time, it also requires a lot of money - just to keep the program going from one day to the next, but that money just isn't there due to the low prices of anti-trojan software in general (and no subscription fees), but even when sales are at acceptable levels all resources are still tied up, due to the nature of the work. Conventional software does not suffer from this. High levels of piracy were also not helping the cause, as although pirates use our software illegally for free, it still costs us to supply the bandwidth for them to download databases. It will be interesting to see what happens to other anti-trojan scanners, as they're in the same situation and will have to make some big decisions sooner rather than later, for their own survival. My personal opinion is that scanners will have a place for quite some time, but already they cannot be used as a sole defence, and gradually they'll step back and become more of a second-line defence as more powerful security systems are developed.

By 'freeing' ourselves of the resource burden that TDS had become we are now free to update our existing software more often and we are now free to pursue other software ideas, one of which you will see soon as I just mentioned.

To TDS users, we thank you for letting us help to secure your systems with this program over the years. Many of you purchased TDS when it was just TDS1/2 (~$30), and took advantage of the free upgrade to TDS3, and as we've never charged for database updates that works out to ( $30 / 8 ) $3.75 per year for what many have rated the most comprehensive anti-trojan scanner even made, so as you can see although TDS has done well for itself over the years it has certainly not been a cashcow for us, and I know Kevin (BOClean author) recently shared similar sentiments here at this forum in regards to the expense required in maintaining a scanner. Yes we could start charging subscription fees, but we would still be tied down to the one program which would prevent us from creating so many others.

As a small token of our appreciation to TDS users we have decided to offer a free license to your choice of ProcessGuard or Port Explorer. If you have both PE and PG already then we're also offering a free license for a friend! (You can even choose to have them pay you half the value of your license). To take advantage of this special offer please email your TDS3 keyfile along with your registration name and email address to sales@diamondcs.com.au. This offer is available for a strictly limited time so don't delay!

Thankyou for taking the time to read this, and I hope you now have a better understanding as to why this decision needed to be made. This is clearly a big decision, and we wouldn't have made it if it wouldn't benefit our customers, it's that simple.

Anyway as they say, on with the show ... there's software that needs developing, and a new website nearly ready for release. :)

[Notok]

Will there be something available for those of us that already have both PG (multi-license here) and PE?

[Starrob]

Wow,....this announcement will provoke a lot of comments. I almost can't wait to see some of the comments.

I have one question. When will the updates for TDS-3 be discontinued?

This is just my opinion but I think this also says something towards DCS thoughts about the continued viability of the AT industry which has been commented on in numerous threads.

My own point of view is that a product like TDS-4 was not going to be leaps and bounds above some of the other scanners being developed on the market today and that the cost for developing a scanner that was not going to beat some of the other scanners hands-down was cost prohibitive...in other words DCS might be saying that AT software might not be much of a moneymaker in the future.

Just think of what companies like KAV, Zonealarm, PREVX are doing. It might be hard to build a "must have" TDS-4 in light of some of the direction of the products being put out by numerous companies.

I don't know if any of the AT companies will survive as "AT scanner" type companies with the possible exception of maybe one or two. I think we are seeing the transformation of a industry.

I think the security industry might divide in two with some companies providing "suites" and others providing highly specialized products. The days of layering with a AT, AS, AV, Firwall might be changing. It will be interesting to see.

Now I sit back and watch the complainers as well the cheerleaders and those that just simply have a big question mark!!!!



Starrob


-{ Quote: "Folks I know this will come as a bit of a shock to some of you, but the TDS software line is to be discontinued, effective immediately. This is one of the biggest decisions I've ever had to make as the director of DiamondCS, so it was not a decision that was taken lightly, but a decision that will ultimately benefit you, our customers. For a full understanding, please read on.

So why on earth did we make a crazy decision like this?!? I hear you ask...

Winding the clock back, TDS was first developed when the very first remote access trojans for Windows were released. This was in the mid-late 90s, and there were just a few of them initially (Sokets de Troie, Acid Shivers, NetBus, Back Orifice) so it was easy for even a single person to keep on top of the situation. Today in 2005 there are tens of thousands of trojans alone with dozens being released on a daily basis, many often incorporating new offensive techniques against security software (one of the reasons ProcessGuard was developed - security software was taking an absolute battering before it was introduced). A lot of work has been put into the development of TDS4, but we have ultimately decided that we will not release it to the public. Not much development time has actually been wasted as a lot of technologies developed for TDS4 will be seen in our next product release, which we're keeping a tight lid on for now but that is literally just around the corner. So why discontinue a product as successful as TDS?

The answer in a nutshell: Time, cost, and constantly tied-up resources. Database-driven scanners (ie. anti-trojan scanners, anti-virus scanners and so on) are not "conventional" programs. By conventional I mean the developer works on a program, releases it, occassionally releases updates for it, but is otherwise free to work on other projects once the project is initially complete. Scanners on the otherhand require DAILY fulltime maintenance, and with the world of viruses and rootkits becoming more complex the time & resource demands are constantly increasing. The end result is that we've been tied down to this one program, which has prevented us from being able to develop so many other security programs, many of which would be considered superior to TDS in their own right, yet because we're tied to TDS we've been unable to pursue our other ideas. If you look at the other anti-trojan developers you'll see the same thing - they're not free to pursue other creations because they're tied down to their scanner. Additionally, it costs a lot of money to pay somebody to maintain the signature database as well, so not only does it require a lot of time, it also requires a lot of money - just to keep the program going from one day to the next. Conventional software does not suffer from this. High levels of piracy were also not helping the cause, as although pirates use our software illegally for free, it still costs us to supply the bandwidth for them to download databases.

By 'freeing' ourselves of the resource burden that TDS had become we are now free to update our existing software more often and we are now free to pursue other software ideas, one of which you will see soon as I just mentioned.

To TDS users, we thank you for letting us help to secure your systems with this program over the years. Many of you purchased TDS when it was just TDS1/2 (~$30), and took advantage of the free upgrade to TDS3, and as we've never charged for database updates that works out to ( $30 / 8 ) $3.75 per year for what many have rated the most comprehensive anti-trojan scanner even made, so as you can see although TDS has done well for itself over the years it has certainly not been a cashcow for us, and I know Kevin (BOClean author) recently shared similar sentiments here at this forum in regards to the expense required in maintaining a scanner. Yes we could start charging subscription fees, but we would still be tied down to the one program which would prevent us from creating so many others.

As a small token of our appreciation to TDS users we have decided to offer a free license to your choice of ProcessGuard or Port Explorer. To take advantage of this special offer please email your TDS3 keyfile along with your registration name and email address to sales@diamondcs.com.au. This offer is available for a strictly limited time so don't delay!

Thankyou for taking the time to read this, and I hope you now have a better understanding as to why this decision needed to be made.

Anyway as they say, on with the show ... there's software that needs developing, and a new website nearly ready for release. :)" }-

[Pilli]

Wayne, I really am sorry to hear about your decision regarding TDS4 but do understnad why this decision had become necessary and wish you and Gavin well in your new endevours.

I have thought for quite a long time now that scanners are not the way to go, prevention being far better than cure.

Looking forward to your new release. Pilli :)

[dog]

I'm a little sad, but not really shocked. I do understand your decision, and it certainly would have been a tough decision to make, but I have no doubt that it was the correct one. The offer extended to your TDS customers is certainly a generous one, and a very nice gesture - it further demonstrates why we regard DCS so highly - Not only do you offer top-notch products but your customer service and support is also a notch above everyone else. I look forward to your next creation, and I wish Gavin and yourself the best of luck with it and any other endeavours.

Regards,

Steve

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Thanks very much for your support guys, it's very much appreciated! Ultimately you, our customers, are the reason why we had to make this decision, and when you see our upcoming releases it will start to make more sense as to why one program had to give way, because this does essentially open the floodgates for us to resume normal unhindered development, so although half of me is sad that I've had to give up "my baby" in TDS, the other half of me is quite excited about what we'll now be able to do and release to you guys, so yes we're losing one program but it will open the door for many others to follow :)

[Bowserman]

Good luck with your future products :).

Regards,
Jade.

[Robyn]

Very sad as this has been my one and only AT but I fully respect & understand your decision. Over the time I have used TDS I certainly appreciated the support from the forum and the replies via e-mail to any worries.

Thanks to actual Diamond team, Jooske + Pilli to mention a few who helped me gain confidence in trying to understand the actual software. I will find it really difficult to replace my AT as my computer has only ever had TDS scanning for any Trojan/supsects.

I am only a home user but want to express my support, thanks + sadness to Wayne and the future software he will develop. Sad to think I will have to uninstall TDS in the near future.

[paulson]

Thanks for a good piece of software that did a good job for some years. Whether there will be new definitions or not I will keep TDS installed because of the network features and other useful stuff.
Good luck for the future and all the best to you guys, push the envelope with your new projects
paulson

[Defenestration]

-{ Quote: "To TDS users, we thank you for letting us help to secure your systems with this program over the years. Many of you purchased TDS when it was just TDS1/2 (~$30), and took advantage of the free upgrade to TDS3, and as we've never charged for database updates that works out to ( $30 / 8 ) $3.75 per year for what many have rated the most comprehensive anti-trojan scanner even made, so as you can see although TDS has done well for itself over the years it has certainly not been a cashcow for us, and I know Kevin (BOClean author) recently shared similar sentiments here at this forum in regards to the expense required in maintaining a scanner. Yes we could start charging subscription fees, but we would still be tied down to the one program which would prevent us from creating so many others.
" }-
I can understand your reasons for discontinuing TDS and am looking forward to seeing some of the new products that come out of the DCS stable.

However, I am a bit peeved since I only purchased TDS (as part of the Action Pack along with PG) on 1st November 2004, so I have not even had 1 years worth of updates, along with the promise of a free update to TDS4 and WG 4.

I also appreciate your offer of a free licence for PG or PE, and realise that you didn't have to offer that, but I do not have much use for a second licence for PG or PE. People who purchased TDS at version 1 or 2 have certainly had more than there moneys worth, but for people like myself who haven't even had a years worth of updates, I would rather have a licence for one of your new products (preferably AT related) when they are released.

[jp10558]

Doesn't ProcessGuard basically prevent trojans if used correctly? Anyway, I would guess they are likely working on that - making it more userfriendly, maybe some hurestics to recommend what to do with some of the pop-ups, and I hope even more control - like where apps can read/write to on the disk.

[Antarctica]

-{ Quote: "I can understand your reasons for discontinuing TDS and am looking forward to seeing some of the new products that come out of the DCS stable.

However, I am a bit peeved since I only purchased TDS (as part of the Action Pack along with PG) on 1st November 2004, so I have not even had 1 years worth of updates, along with the promise of a free update to TDS4 and WG 4.

I also appreciate your offer of a free licence for PG or PE, and realise that you didn't have to offer that, but I do not have much use for a second licence for PG or PE. People who purchased TDS at version 1 or 2 have certainly had more than there moneys worth, but for people like myself who haven't even had a years worth of updates, I would rather have a licence for one of your new products (preferably AT related) when they are released." }-

Defenestration, I fully agree with you. I can understand the reasons for discontinuing this product but like you I bought TDS-3 in december 2004 so I feel I didn't get updates for my money worth.

As I already have licence for PG and Port Explorer I would also prefer to be able to get a free licence for the new products.

That said, I want to wish Wayne and the TDS team good luck for the future. :)

[FanJ]

Hi Wayne,

I feel sad, and (I have to admit it) a little shocked.
I can also understand that you guys feel sad for having to take the decision.
If I remember me well, it was your father who started the TDS project.
A long history comes to an end.

I remember me the good old days when there was only the private TDS board and we all were that dedicated group, having fun, coming up with ideas, supporting each other, beta testing; great friendships were formed there.
I remember me the reply from Blazey when I first wrote there some guidelines :)
I'm sure that lots of us have great memories about those days.
TDS teached us a lot !

Wayne, I can understand your decision. It must have been an hard one.
May I thank you and Gavin, and the whole DiamondCS team (now and in the past), for all your hard work in all those years.
Big thanks !!!

I would like to wish you all the very best in the future.
I'm looking forward to new DCS programs.

May the diamond of DiamondCS keep on shining !!!

Most warmest regards,
Jan

[trock]

Ok, how can I locate my TDS-3 registration keyfile?

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "Ok, how can I locate my TDS-3 registration keyfile?" }-You will find it at C:\Program Files\TDS3\TDS3.kf for a typical installation.

Blue

[trock]

Thanks Blue.

[Infinity]

I understand but what can I say...I already thought that costs will be a constant matter of importance for anyone running a business.

I hope DiamondCS Crew, that your goals will be achieved and like you said, the customer will gain too...

However, few questions (already asked but I ask again, off course ;))...
* when will tds-3 stop updating

the rest of the questions:

There is no santa clause I guess :D

best wishes, and thanx for the many years of support.

tds-3 was a magnificent piece of work, way ahead of the rest (back then ;)) and no offence,

Andy

[Pawthentic]

TDS-3 discontinued? TDS-4 non-existent? Color me so *not* suprised.

No big deal, I suppose... as some of the bells and whistles in TDS-3 didn't even work from behind a device that uses network address translation.

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/archive/index.php/t-2194.html

--

[richrf]

Hi Wayne,

Clearly this decision was inevitable. The business model (e.g. one time purchase price) could not support a productd as complicated and resource intensive as an TDS-3 - especially when TDS-3 is trying to find a market niche that could exist over time against products like Kaspersky AV.

I feel I received more than my money's worth from my investment in the Action Pack, so I am not disappointed. I am glad you will be applying your creative resources to newer and more advanced products than TDS-3.

I would suggest that you offer your current TDS-3 customers, some discount with your new product line. I believe that this would be a fair offer from a business point of view.

Thanks again for the great products over the years. I will continue to be a loyal customer of DiamondCS because I feel I get plenty of bang for the buck.

Regards,
Rich

[kwesi]

Hello, Wayne.

I'm sorry to hear that TDS is on the way out (first Giant and now this!), but I'm glad that from the sound of things you'll be moving things forward technically and in your careers as a result.

A big thank you to Wayne and crew, Pilli, Jooske and all of the rest of you hardworking people who have supported TDS users.

I, too, am wondering when TDS-3 updates will come to an end, but in any case, I will definitely be a willing customer for your new products, as I have so much faith in TDS-3 and PG.

Good Luck.

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "
To TDS users, we thank you for letting us help to secure your systems with this program over the years. Many of you purchased TDS when it was just TDS1/2 (~$30), and took advantage of the free upgrade to TDS3, and as we've never charged for database updates that works out to ( $30 / 8 ) $3.75 per year for what many have rated the most comprehensive anti-trojan scanner even made, so as you can see although TDS has done well for itself over the years it has certainly not been a cashcow for us, and I know Kevin (BOClean author) recently shared similar sentiments here at this forum in regards to the expense required in maintaining a scanner. Yes we could start charging subscription fees, but we would still be tied down to the one program which would prevent us from creating so many others." }-

GREETS, Unca Wayne! Naturally, our OWN customers have been emailing and wondering what's become of US as a result of all this, and first I'd like to say, "OH MAN ... YOU SMART BASTARD!" Heh.

As you indicated, what both of us got ourselves mixed up in back in the mid 1990's was a labor of love and concern to those of our customers who paid us for OTHER products - in our case it was the NSClean (for which our company is named) and the IEClean browser "cleaner-uppers" and dealing with "trojans" was a SIDELINE which we provided to our customers concerned about all those early toys and the antivirus' industry's CONTINUING failure to cope with them once they've taken hold.

On average, we only had to provide updates for NEW nasties perhaps a few times a month. AND we had time to write BOOK REPORTS on them too once we'd arranged a means to just snuff 'em. Ah, the fun and mystery of unravelling the innards of "Back Orifice" for which "BOClean" was named when it became a necessity instead of a freebie "give-away" along with the other toys. Ah, seemed so EASY back then. :(

Seven trojans a MONTH in 1999? Ummmm ... OK, we'll cover that while doing our OTHER stuff. Seven trojans in a WEEK in 2001? Ummmm ... OK, we'll cover that too. Seven trojans in a *DAY* in 2004? Ummmm ... ow. But like you, we've been stuck in "we made a promise of 'one price forever' and like you, we've kept it. Now we're doing ten to forty *NEW* trojans *EVERY* day, not to mention having to sift through HUNDREDS that aren't really "new" except to our "competitors" who frankly aren't willing to do the 24/7 coverage you and we have.

Like yourself, had I had ANY idea of what I was getting myself into, I would be selling paint at Wal*Mart with a sheet-eating GRIN on my face KNOWING that a day was only X number of hours and I'd get some sleep and some time off - same for everybody ELSE here. Ain't been like that in a LONG time. Add to that, folks ain't buying and suddenly the reality is you're faced with INSANE expenses and very little income to justify the workload. And like you, just keeping up with the day's raft of "free antitrojan download" which is ITSELF a TROJAN is beyond anything any of us expected when we said, "buy it and pay once."

In the past couple of years, some newcomers have emerged in this and held OUR feet to the fire as newbies trying to gain a "competitive advantage" with "we'll NEVER do a subscription fee" and THAT nonsense (as THEY raised their prices) precluded any of us on the frontlines from COVERING the costs of research none of us had ever planned on ever needing to do. And even with the "newcomers," I don't know ANYONE who's actually making MONEY doing this. Sure a handful of people daily buy a copy, and that's what has kept us all going, but unlike games or other utilities, it isn't the SOFTWARE that is the major cost, nor its development.

The KILLER COST is all the RESEARCH and updating required on a daily basis, and individual user sales SURE don't make up for that. In OUR case, were it not for all of our huge governmental and corporate licensees who buy LOTS of copies (BOClean is NOT a "home user program" and thus its difference from the expectations of many) are the ONLY reason why we still have any employees at all. Truth be told, if we depended on the "public" to pay our bills, we probably would have gone under a long time ago on not only the sheer volume of research, but the much higher expense of supporting individuals for ONE sale as opposed to an administrator who's paid for 30,000 desktops. PERSONAL support is insanely expensive to render as opposed to a corporate situation. And of course the bandwidth. It's those INDIVIDUAL customers, particularly those who bought through discounters where we never collected a fair drop and giving EACH ONE bandwidth for multiple machines that have OUR costs ALSO exceeding the two dollars *WE* get paid. :(

So YEAH, I sure do understand where you're coming from. Like I said, we're going through the same problem here where it has affected our ability to provide support within minutes instead of hours, and the costs of dealing with "spyware" trojans on top of the classic "back doors" has only made it FAR worse.

To *OUR* customers, we intend to MAINTAIN what we've provided for all these years, we're not going anywhere. We're at least fortunate that some additional investments in our company over the past year have permitted us to cover these insane expenses and still have SOME ability to develop the next generation of what we do. However, if this security situation with XP and its insane number of security holes continues to grow worse, then it might well become necessary to turn to those who have had BOClean for a number of years and try to determine SOME means of recouping the incredible losses of the current state of malware research as compared to the terms and conditions BOClean was originally designed under. For NOW, there isn't a need but if things get any worse, then we might very well need to consider how to PAY for the 24/7 coverage we provide on a daily basis.

For now, our BIG corporate customers are covering the bill *AND* are willing to pay to ensure that we keep doing it. But like I said, if we had to depend on the "software gotta be FREE" public, we'd be loading "abetterinternet" on their machines like some of our competitors and then say "not harmful, we don't detect it anymore." ... :)

But yeah, I *sure* don't BLAME YOU ... CONGRATULATIONS on managing some sanity we just can't afford to do with all of our commitments to people who WILL sue our pants off. especially all those governments with attorneys with little to do at their desks who DID pay us enough to cover THEIR costs to us at least. Heh.

[WSFuser]

oh wow...TDS discontinued huh? i guess i dont have to worry about TDS-4. and competition has now lowered a bit. well im sure it wouldve been the right thing to do.

[richrf]

I believe that Wayne's and Kevin's comments underscore the need by companies to develop a business model that:

1) Is competive
2) Can support ongoing development
3) Can make an attractive profit that will encourage additional investment of time and money

Pricing that is too low may be insufficient to create enough revenue, and pricing that is too high will inhibit the growth of the user base (and marketshare) that ultimately make it impossible for a company to subsist.

A really good example is the release of the new ZoneAlarm product which is clearly trying to build product value by adding anti-spyware functions, and thereby trying to induce "free" customers to become "paid license" customers.

I personally feel there is plenty of room for DiamondCS to grow in the "pro-active/preventative" market (e.g. ProcessGuard, WormGuard) and I hope that this market becomes very large and viable, since I have always believed that an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of detection.

Goodluck to the guys at NSClean (I am also a licensed user of BOClean) and DiamondCS! Thanks for all of the security and support you have provided to me over the years.

Rich

[TouchuvGrey]

Wham, it was like a kick in the gut. All of a sudden an old friend is gone. I understand the decision. Maybe in a day or so it will be a little easier to accept. Thank you all, Wayne, Gavin, Jason, Jooske, Pilli, all of you who have protected my computers and helped me with problems over the past few years. No argument here, i've long since got my money's worth. I eagerly await future developments.


Mike

[Starrob]

I don't think you would like working at Wal-Mart's. Word is the pay is low....The only thing that pays less than Wal-Mart's maybe is selling AT or AS software :)

BoClean might be one of the few AT's left standing.....at least for awhile. As long as BoClean can keep big corporate and/or government customers they can continue to survive. They might even make some money from home users in the end as they might be one of the last places to go to for a specialized AT/AS product.

I personally feel that maybe only one other company that is a AT scanner can survive as a stand-alone and that company will probably survive by becoming more like a anti-malware suite.

The market is just too crowded with alternatives. Most of the AT and most AS companies will probably either end quietly or have their technology bought by one of the "big boys" like Symantec, McAfee, or Microsoft to name a few, if they are even considered to have a new or orginal idea.

I think the days of having a seperate AV, AT, AS and firewall is evolving. I think maybe people in the future will simply buy a suite of products from one of the big boys and a few highly specialized products to cover the holes that the "suites" don't cover from the smaller outfits like DiamondDCS and a few others.



Starrob

-{ Quote: "




Like yourself, had I had ANY idea of what I was getting myself into, I would be selling paint at Wal*Mart with a sheet-eating GRIN on my face KNOWING that a day was only X number of hours and I'd get some sleep and some time off - same for everybody ELSE here. Ain't been like that in a LONG time. Add to that, folks ain't buying and suddenly the reality is you're faced with INSANE expenses and very little income to justify the workload. And like you, just keeping up with the day's raft of "free antitrojan download" which is ITSELF a TROJAN is beyond anything any of us expected when we said, "buy it and pay once."

In the past couple of years, some newcomers have emerged in this and held OUR feet to the fire as newbies trying to gain a "competitive advantage" with "we'll NEVER do a subscription fee" and THAT nonsense (as THEY raised their prices) precluded any of us on the frontlines from COVERING the costs of research none of us had ever planned on ever needing to do. And even with the "newcomers," I don't know ANYONE who's actually making MONEY doing this. Sure a handful of people daily buy a copy, and that's what has kept us all going, but unlike games or other utilities, it isn't the SOFTWARE that is the major cost, nor its development.

The KILLER COST is all the RESEARCH and updating required on a daily basis, and individual user sales SURE don't make up for that. In OUR case, were it not for all of our huge governmental and corporate licensees who buy LOTS of copies (BOClean is NOT a "home user program" and thus its difference from the expectations of many) are the ONLY reason why we still have any employees at all. Truth be told, if we depended on the "public" to pay our bills, we probably would have gone under a long time ago on not only the sheer volume of research, but the much higher expense of supporting individuals for ONE sale as opposed to an administrator who's paid for 30,000 desktops. PERSONAL support is insanely expensive to render as opposed to a corporate situation. And of course the bandwidth. It's those INDIVIDUAL customers, particularly those who bought through discounters where we never collected a fair drop and giving EACH ONE bandwidth for multiple machines that have OUR costs ALSO exceeding the two dollars *WE* get paid. :(

So YEAH, I sure do understand where you're coming from. Like I said, we're going through the same problem here where it has affected our ability to provide support within minutes instead of hours, and the costs of dealing with "spyware" trojans on top of the classic "back doors" has only made it FAR worse.

To *OUR* customers, we intend to MAINTAIN what we've provided for all these years, we're not going anywhere. We're at least fortunate that some additional investments in our company over the past year have permitted us to cover these insane expenses and still have SOME ability to develop the next generation of what we do. However, if this security situation with XP and its insane number of security holes continues to grow worse, then it might well become necessary to turn to those who have had BOClean for a number of years and try to determine SOME means of recouping the incredible losses of the current state of malware research as compared to the terms and conditions BOClean was originally designed under. For NOW, there isn't a need but if things get any worse, then we might very well need to consider how to PAY for the 24/7 coverage we provide on a daily basis.

For now, our BIG corporate customers are covering the bill *AND* are willing to pay to ensure that we keep doing it. But like I said, if we had to depend on the "software gotta be FREE" public, we'd be loading "abetterinternet" on their machines like some of our competitors and then say "not harmful, we don't detect it anymore." ... :)

But yeah, I *sure* don't BLAME YOU ... CONGRATULATIONS on managing some sanity we just can't afford to do with all of our commitments to people who WILL sue our pants off. especially all those governments with attorneys with little to do at their desks who DID pay us enough to cover THEIR costs to us at least. Heh." }-

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "I don't think you would like working at Wal-Mart's. Word is the pay is low....The only thing that pays less than Wal-Mart's maybe is selling AT or AS software :)

BoClean might be one of the few AT's left standing.....at least for awhile. As long as BoClean can keep big corporate and/or government customers they can continue to survive. They might even make some money from home users in the end as they might be one of the last places to go to for a specialized AT/AS product." }-

Nah, we're STUCK with this for AT LEAST the next four years under contract with a number of government and corporate contracts. NO way out even though that would help my OWN sanity immeasurably. Just as an example, things have been SO insane on this end that I'm still working on WEDNESDAY. *DID* manage to cop a three hour nap about 22 hours ago - MORE for the lab again and there's just four of us here given it's "vacation time" and yet NOT vacation time for the "skiddies" and Integrated Search Technologies Corp and dozens of others that pay THEIR people better than ten times what I can afford to pay *OUR* people.

ONLY reason that less than 99.9% of ALL computers aren't Pwn3d yet is that there's STILL a few of us out here with the RESOURCES and the TALENT to keep up with these sodders. I can count the number of QUALIFIED "anti-malware specialists" on two hands with no change left over. However the number of people PAID to "jack your box" now number in the tens of thousands who are WELL paid. Most DEFINITELY not a "fair drop." :(

Like I said in truly genuine congratulations to Unca Wayne, "YOU got out alive and sane" ... for those of us HERE, it only means we've got to hire MORE people from the same "not making money" pot we already have. SOMETHING has got to give, and unless we get more corporate purchases, we're going to HAVE to change something to bring in more money to cover the research expenses for those (at least once daily) updates. BIGGEST mistake we made though was becoming popular among "single user" licenses. Supporting a corporation with thousands of desktops with ONE contact ain't so bad. Individuals asking for me to comment on every single thing that goes bump in the night that was detected or "this newsgroup needs a reply" ... well, THAT gets expensive. :(

But as MUCH as I'd like to do ANYTHING else myself, WE ain't going nowhere. Don't have a choice actually, at least for the next four years. And as long as Microsoft does stupid things like buying "GIANT" (hahahahahaha!) or Symantec can't keep their antivirus from being deleted by every worm du jour and ZONE ALARM still insists that a stack pointer in an LSP along with capturing "windows messages between windows" is all it takes for "security" then ... well ... looks like there's STILL plenty of work for us to do for QUITE some time. :(

The most POPULAR security programs out there ... well ... looks like we ain't going NOWHERE.

[richrf]

Hi Kevin,

Health is important - both corporate and individual. Good intentions and ethics are important for corporations and individuals, but so is a good business/revenue model. I always believe that everyone should benefit from a product - end-users and developers alike. This ensures a nice, long life. Seeing as how the security world is changing, I think that all organizations that have excellent products should re-look their business model and, where necessary, modify it to ensure good,competitive technologies for users and good, competitive rewards for developers. I believe that this would be the healthiest approach to both business and life. :)

Cya,
Rich

[Webmastersas]

-{ Quote: "Defenestration, I fully agree with you. I can understand the reasons for discontinuing this product but like you I bought TDS-3 in december 2004 so I feel I didn't get updates for my money worth.

As I already have licence for PG and Port Explorer I would also prefer to be able to get a free licence for the new products.

That said, I want to wish Wayne and the TDS team good luck for the future. :)" }-

The same here i only purchased a few months ago with PG as well on recomendation

[wawadave 1]

i,m sorry to see this go!!! i have not used it my self. but have recomended it in the past. i hope this does not escalate as a trend!!!
i can here the caviar and vodka opening now!!!!

[Atomas31]

Hi,

I am wondering what will happen with the technology develops for TDS-4? Will it be sold to a competitor? Does the concept of TDS will be sold? If it is sold, who can buy it and continue the developpement????


Thank you,
Atomas31

PS. : Can we, now, hope for a release of Wormguard 4 or will it be discontinued as well?

[Bubba]

@ Atomas31
I have merged your thread into this thread. Hopefully the comment Wayne made in his beginning post above adequately answers your question concerning development.

-{ Quote: "Not much development time has actually been wasted as a lot of technologies developed for TDS4 will be seen in our next product release" }-As for your Worm Guard question....if you will visit the WormGuard Forum (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=11)....you'll see the below thread. In that thread your question concerning discontinuation of WormGuard was answered by Wayne.

This thread---> Will Wormguard survive? (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=90021)-{ Quote: "Only TDS is affected by the TDS decision - not WormGuard or any of our other programs. " }-

[Morpheus]

Well, whilst I am a little sad to see it go, TBH the writing has been on the wall for a while and ever since I switched to KAV I haven't really felt a great need for TDS-3. Whilst I still run (or at least did run) weekly scans with TDS-3 it has never really caught anything for me and lately has been more for comfort/habit than a feeling that their was a gaping hole in my PC's defenses which was the case when I originally purchased it a few years back.

Best of luck in your future projects, I don't know if its just luck but as I have just started using the freeware version of ProcessGuard as I was having problems with KPFs built in feature, the above offer has come at a time when I was considering purchasing it and like TDS-3 originally did this helps with my overall sense of security.

Thanks for all your efforts.

Morpheus

[dandelionstray]

This may be deleted, but I'm NOT understanding at all. I'm very angry that this product was stopped. What happened was you over-extended and now looking at the lifetime product updates and not enough new people signing up, you're discontinueing it because it's a financial liability. Any company that will do that to their subscribers is not run well and I'm no longer interested in their products.

[rx2pc]

-{ Quote: "As a small token of our appreciation to TDS users we have decided to offer a free license to your choice of ProcessGuard or Port Explorer. To take advantage of this special offer please email your TDS3 keyfile along with your registration name and email address to sales@diamondcs.com.au. This offer is available for a strictly limited time so don't delay!" }-

Is there a possibility to have this offer apply to WormGuard 4?

[Pilli]

Hi dandelionstray
Guest,

Most ppl that have bought TDS have had exceptional service from DCS.
No company can afford to sustain a product that is not pofitable or likely to be in the future, Wayne and his company have always given their best but even they have to draw the line when it may affect the food on the table.

As stated by Wayne DCS is still offering licences for other products for those that have licences and feel a bit miffed, i.e those that have probably purchased TDS in the last year or so.

Let's look forward to more superb products like ProcessGuard & Port Explorer, bitterness will not make anything better.

Pilli

[se7engreen]

Wayne,
I have a single license for each DCS program available. By trading in the TDS license for another(for lack of better description), would that upgrade a single license to an unlimited? Or would it be 1 additional license?

TDS-3 is a great program, but I've come to rely on it less and less with the advent of proactive progs like PG.
Thanks

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "This may be deleted, but I'm NOT understanding at all. I'm very angry that this product was stopped. What happened was you over-extended and now looking at the lifetime product updates and not enough new people signing up, you're discontinueing it because it's a financial liability. Any company that will do that to their subscribers is not run well and I'm no longer interested in their products." }-

I agree that DiamondCS, from a business point of view, has its challenges. It should not sell products unless there is a strong business/revenue model. This is best for both the company and its customer base. Customers who recently purchased TDS-3 on the promise of an upgrade, which be afforded some compensation in the form of either a discount or a free upgrade to any forthcoming products. This makes the most business sense to me.

Rich

[myguess]

My guess is DCS is working on a new program that can compete with Online Armour and Prevx's latest baby. Good Idea guys to add the same type of features as those two programs to Process Guard, or a new program, as I think they are more the future of anti-malware prevention. ;)

[BillPStudios]

Hi Wayne,

Sorry to hear that you're going to let your baby go but I certainly understand. It's tough to step back and let go but it appears you're heading in a good direction. Your offer of Process Guard to current customers is admirable. I have no doubt about your sincerity to meet the needs of those folks who have supported you over the years.

The competition from more greedy companies is making it tough for all of us but I'm sure you'll continue to provide a great product for many years.


Keep up the good work,

Bill Pytlovany
BillP Studios

[Arctic]

Well this is certainly shocking to me. If TDS is gone what antitrojan software should I use? As for the free offer I already have processguard, port explorer and wormguard. I must say I am very upset. I always recommended TDS to everyone I know. My friend's computer had so many viruses on it the antivirus would not work. I installed TDS and cleaned it right up. She had 537 viruses on her pc because her mom kept opening every email and attachment she received. lol. But TDS did the trick. I am so dissappointed. Can anyone recommend another anti-trojan software to use? :'(

[se7engreen]

-{ Quote: "Can anyone recommend another anti-trojan software to use?" }-

See this thread:
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=90064

[Pilli]

Hi Artic. -{ Quote: " Can anyone recommend another anti-trojan software to use? " }- KAV with extended bases, NOD32 is my favoutite and has made great progress Trojan wise in recent months with excellent heuristics, either of those with ProcessGuard and RegDefend for starters ;D

Pilli

[Notok]

-{ Quote: "My guess is DCS is working on a new program that can compete with Online Armour and Prevx's latest baby. Good Idea guys to add the same type of features as those two programs to Process Guard, or a new program, as I think they are more the future of anti-malware prevention. " }-Actually, why not collaborate w/ one of the other small companies? Seems like OnlineArmor would be a good one.. I know they hire contractors. It seems like it would be a good way to keep the 'baby' from dying completely.. even if just for signatures or something.

[clive_4974]

will dcs will make another anti - trojan software in future ?

[ö-ö]

The situation (too many new trojans) was well-known for at least 12 months. Nevertheless DCS offered a free TDS-4 update to purchasers of TDS-3. It therefore seems to me that DCS was determined to finish and release TDS-4 (regardless of the malware flood).

Also the piracy issue was certainly not the reason for DCS's decision: TDS-3 did not have a working protection mechanism and this fact is well-known to DCS. It is sufficient to delete a registry entry in order to extend the trial period. DCS never changed this because they know that not every software pirate can be turned into a paying customer.

In my opinion, TDS-4's success was mainly endangered by the market entry of two competitors: Ewido and A2.

Ewido became better and better so that it is hard to imagine what a traditional signature-based scanner can offer "on top".

A2, which was supposed to be a mere "marketing bubble" by many people including Wayne, was actually released and, in the meantime, it features a unique IDS concept (although the rest of the scanner is still crap).

In addition, traditional AV developers have developed or will develop sophisticated heuristics for there products (e.g., Eset or Kaspersky).

Against this background, there is reason to believe that TDS-4 would have been "just another good AT" (but no revolution). It is therefore a wise decision to continue TDS.

The remaining questions are:

-- what innovative products will be released by DCS?
-- what will happen to Gavin (who was responsible for the signature database)?
-- what will happen to the people who purchased a "free upgrade to TDS-4" and who do not need or already have ProcessGuard?

[Don Pelotas]

-{ Quote: "Hi Artic. KAV with extended bases, NOD32 is my favoutite and has made great progress Trojan wise in recent months with excellent heuristics, either of those with ProcessGuard and RegDefend for starters ;D

Pilli" }-
Or one of the Anti-trojan competitor's who are still not packing it in, like BOClean (http://www.nsclean.com/boclean.html) Or Ewido (http://www.ewido.net/en/). ;) ;D

[VirusMaaannn]

I'm not surprised... Since when? 2002... TDS 4 was promised to be around the corner, it was beginning to sound like the 2nd coming..LOL..

Anyways, good luck and whatever, I kinda expected this... Your product was TOOO specialized and too "nichy" to attract the general masses..

[Don Pelotas]

-{ Quote: "-- what will happen to the people who purchased a "free upgrade to TDS-4" and who do not need or already have ProcessGuard?" }-
This was the first thing that entered my mind, when i saw the announcement. :)

[ö-ö]

Just another thought:

This may be the end of all signature-based scanners for non-replicating malware ...

Maybe DCS realized that the future lies with generic detection.

[Starrob]

This is my opinion also. Ewido and a2 took TDS-4 to the cleaners. I am just a end-user but it is hard to think of ways that TDS-4 would have been vastly superior to Ewido and a2. Those two companies would have competed well enough to take enough users away from TDS-4 that would have made the maintenance of the program a super-money loser.

I am also looking at what KAV and NOD32 are doing. Both companies are making the concept of a pure play AT or even a pure play AS obselete. Only companies with the financial muscle of a KAV or a NOD32 or even Symantec or McAfee may have the resources to keep a large group of people dedicated to creating signatures.

a2 might possibly survive longer than anyone gave them credit for, maybe a lot longer than the "top AT" companies. It will be interesting to watch it all play out.

I think within the next few years there might not be such a thing as a AV or AT or AS company. There will probably be just anti-malware scanners, different versions of IDS protection systems and very specialized security products companies. Looks like DCS is going the way of being a specialized security software company. a2 looks to be going in the direction of a IDS protection system. I think Ewido has intentions on being a top anti-malware company that can compete with the big boys.....but that remains to be seen...lets see how that scanner develops and just what will be added to their "Ewido suite". They could go in numerous directions depending on their financial resources.

What will Trojan hunter do? What will BoClean developers do after their 4 year contract is up? Will Kevin go find a job in Wal-Marts or will he also develop a specialized product company.....remains to be seen. I think it is likely though that they hey-day of the AT scanner is over. The AS scanners will probably be the next to fall.



Starrob




-{ Quote: "

In my opinion, TDS-4's success was mainly endangered by the market entry of two competitors: Ewido and A2.

Ewido became better and better so that it is hard to imagine what a traditional signature-based scanner can offer "on top".

A2, which was supposed to be a mere "marketing bubble" by many people including Wayne, was actually released and, in the meantime, it features a unique IDS concept (although the rest of the scanner is still crap).

In addition, traditional AV developers have developed or will develop sophisticated heuristics for there products (e.g., Eset or Kaspersky).

Against this background, there is reason to believe that TDS-4 would have been "just another good AT" (but no revolution). It is therefore a wise decision to continue TDS.

" }-

[Antarctica]

-{ Quote: "what will happen to the people who purchased a "free upgrade to TDS-4" and who do not need or already have ProcessGuard?" }-

I would really feel frustrated if DCS dos not offer "something else" as I bought TDS-3 in december on the promise of a free upgrade to TDS-4. As I already have a licence for all the other products including WormGuard, I think they should also offer a discount on their future new Software. ???

[Marja]

The very best of luck to you on your new venture.........

I am sure it was hard to do....but, we need people like you who are willing to go out and try new things....you can't win much less stay in a race when you are standing still.....I know that must be how you have felt...

So, Good Luck, and many many of us are cheering you on from the sidelines! http://www.wilderssecurity.com/images/smilies/cheesy.gif

Thanks for all your DCS support people too, know they will be right there helping with the next brand new DCS project!


Cheers!

Marjahttp://www.wilderssecurity.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

[illukka]

-{ Quote: "Just another thought:


Maybe DCS realized that the future lies with generic detection." }-

or proactive protection

[gre87y]

I feel sad and a little frustrated. When I purchased TDS-3 the selling point for me was TDS-4. But also after buying TDS-3 this lead to me learning about process guard and port explorer which I also purchased. Since I already have the two products that were offered to TDS-3 users a discount on another product would be nice. That said, thank you. I am really going to miss TDS-3. Good luck on your new adventures .

[jaws...]

With this state of affairs, it sure feels like I did glimpse into the future and it is here, now.

[dandelionstray]

-{ Quote: "Hi dandelionstray
Guest,

Most ppl that have bought TDS have had exceptional service from DCS.
No company can afford to sustain a product that is not pofitable or likely to be in the future, Wayne and his company have always given their best but even they have to draw the line when it may affect the food on the table.

As stated by Wayne DCS is still offering licences for other products for those that have licences and feel a bit miffed, i.e those that have probably purchased TDS in the last year or so.

Let's look forward to more superb products like ProcessGuard & Port Explorer, bitterness will not make anything better.

Pilli" }-

That's nice to say if you've been with them long enough to take advantage of the service, at least you got your money's worth. As far as looking forward to more superb products, wonder how long they'll last? No, no bitterness, just practicality, company does it once, who's to say won't do it again??

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "That's nice to say if you've been with them long enough to take advantage of the service, at least you got your money's worth. As far as looking forward to more superb products, wonder how long they'll last? No, no bitterness, just practicality, company does it once, who's to say won't do it again??" }-


I certainly understand where you are coming from. I think DiamondCS made a mistake by selling one product (TDS-3) on the basis of future delivery of another product (TDS-4). The classical way of selling products based upon a one time purchase with a yearly fee for upgrades would have prevented/solved this problem. I do not know why DiamondCS deviated from this classical model - which works.

I think DiamondCS compounded this error/problem by:

1) Offering a non-antitrojan program as consolation (many users either have these products or don't want/need them) and two ... (and this was really bad)

2) Announcing there will be a "new" product, that will be better - and probably be oriented toward the anti-malware product. In so announcing, did not offer the former TDS-3 users any discount or free trade-in (possibly to those who recently purchased TDS-3) toward this new product.

All around, I think the situation could have been and still can be better handled. I hope, upon review of comments, that DiamondCS modifies its offer so that loyal TDS-3 customers, who have justifiable complaints, are treated more fairly. I for one, as an older user of the product, have received full value, and never really thought much about TDS-4 when I purchased TDS-3. But others, such as yourself, are in an entirely different situation, and you should receive fair remedy. If you do not, well they you are entirely justified in your reaction.

Hope it works out for you and others in similar situations,
Rich

[Loki]

Let me look around... Oh there is that Windows 95 CD, god I still have that? Oh and here's Windows 98... is it any good still? ... hey I found my copy of Windows 98 SE better hurry MS is dumping it too... Did I really get stuck with Windows ME when I bought this PC... Windows 2000 is soon to bite the Dust... and everyone who's moved to XP are going to need to move to the next version to keep uncle Bill happy. Trust me MS will stop support on XP so fast you won't know what hit you... I find my investment in OS's that have been abandoned is quite high...

So I have purchased software from other companies and within a month they release a new version do you think they care, I'm *ucked...

Talk about a company has you over the barrel...

So DCS has to discontinue the TDS line, I've not seen them treat thier customers badly before and I don't think they will treat them badly here.

May the DSC team continue to provide quality security programs and make an honest profit.

8)

[No Name at All]

I am disappointed since I have only had this program for about 6 months. But I am sure that there are some people who bought the program last week who are totally getting screwed. Hopefully they will offer a discount on their next program to users who have recently purchased TDS 3. Anyway, best of luck on your next project and I hope things work out.

[hayc59]

@Wayne
Good Luck To You In The Future
As To What Ever Happens
Thanks For A Great Product
And Even Mo Better Customer Service
God Bless

[gre87y]

As frustrated as I am right now I do wish you the best of luck.

[waya]

Hi all: I'm also feeling nostalgic to see the end of TDS. It was like Thor's magic belt to me when I found it. I understand Wayne's p.o.v. and respect his decision. It would take some cojones to make that call. I have had the experience of being accosted by a programmer on my postal route, begging me to swap jobs with him, a lab tech lady and a programmer friend as well. Their main unhappiness was simple. No time to theirselves, which irritates the human spirit. From what I can see, time is not given and so, must be taken. As to the biz angle, there are people trained and gifted in this arena. A programmer should not have to focus on this, in my opinion. I think it will take both of these experts working together to make something viable. Hopefully each would have more time. To the recent TDS users, I am sure you will be fairly dealt with by DCS. The future must be pro-active. There are too many holes and too many monkeys. As to a replacement, I say wait and see what the fellas come up with. Hello to Jooske, Gavin, Pilli, et. al. PS: I'm keeping my copy installed for now. Regards!

[jack b]

Thanks, Wayne, and everyone at DCS, even though TDS-3 was certainly over MY head for most of it's capabilities in addition to the scanner.
I'll enjoy learning my way about my new copy of Process Guard.
The free license is a very generous offer, as I clearly got my value from TDS-3.
Good luck and best wishes in the future.

[Defenestration]

-{ Quote: "I certainly understand where you are coming from. I think DiamondCS made a mistake by selling one product (TDS-3) on the basis of future delivery of another product (TDS-4). The classical way of selling products based upon a one time purchase with a yearly fee for upgrades would have prevented/solved this problem. I do not know why DiamondCS deviated from this classical model - which works.
" }-

I couldn't agree more. I'm sure many people, including myself, would not have had a problem paying a yearly subscription fee for TDS, as is the case with products that require constant updating to one of its components (sigs in this case). I'm not in possession of the number of users of TDS, but with it's standing this would've allowed DiamondCS to employ more staff for the sole purpose of providing sig updates to TDS.

-{ Quote: "
I think DiamondCS compounded this error/problem by:

1) Offering a non-antitrojan program as consolation (many users either have these products or don't want/need them) and two ... (and this was really bad)

2) Announcing there will be a "new" product, that will be better - and probably be oriented toward the anti-malware product. In so announcing, did not offer the former TDS-3 users any discount or free trade-in (possibly to those who recently purchased TDS-3) toward this new product.

All around, I think the situation could have been and still can be better handled. I hope, upon review of comments, that DiamondCS modifies its offer so that loyal TDS-3 customers, who have justifiable complaints, are treated more fairly. I for one, as an older user of the product, have received full value, and never really thought much about TDS-4 when I purchased TDS-3. But others, such as yourself, are in an entirely different situation, and you should receive fair remedy. If you do not, well they you are entirely justified in your reaction.
" }-
Being one of the people who has only owned TDS for approx 6 months I am again in complete agreement, and would hope that DiamondCS re-evaluate the offer to customers who have not had there moneys worth.

That said, I do wish Diamond all the best in their endeavours, and hope I can continue to be a customer.

[mercurie]

Fellow Creatures (especially those who believe in dedicated AT),
This is sad to me too. Yet understandable. Honestly I am glad to hear from Nancy and Kevin already as it struck fear into my heart. :o ??? TDS gone! To much resource expenditure to keep it going. Understandable, as AV get better, but not good enough. You heard Kevin, the Big Boys want a dedicated AT.

While I have not used TDS product I have studied it. And their other products too. They appeared to me to be most satisfactory. Seemed a little short on the user friendly side. But I had BoClean before discovering them so they never entered in to my own personal purchase decision.

To those who have loyalty to TDS. I understand how you must feel, because my loyalty lies with BoClean and I know how I would feel. :(

And after all these good people were all about doing the same thing helping us keep our machines clean of evilware. I certainly wish them well.

Do remember this they are dropping a product line, NOT going out of business, the best companies in the world sometimes change their product line. ;)

:-* BoClean=TrojanDefense a good choice as well. :)

[jonnypop]

I rarely use TDS-3 anymore. It brought my system to its knees when running, although the detection was excellent (nothing KAV didn't get though). I dont use process guard, so being that I stupidly purchased the action pack, I would rather get a discount on future software (maybe?).

Very glad to see Kevin (Boclean) isn't going anyware, since this is AT that I have run for long time since I like set it and forget it software. I always recommend to friends with multiple PC's to use free antivirus along with Boclean (because of there license on multiple computers in a single household) as the most cost effective. Although I would still use Boclean even it had pricing like Ewido.

[Ed_W]

I've been using TDS3 for quite a few years and I think I've pretty
much used up its lifespan so in a sense, I'm not *that* sad with
regards to TDS being discontinued. Shocked, yes.

I'm actually mixed on this. Angry that I was promised some
vaporware that will fix some issues TDS3 had on my system.
(If Chinese Language is the default language on a W2K system,
TDS3 refuses to run. So I need to change the default language
back to English, to run (which requires a reboot) and then
change it back to Chinese (which requires another reboot).

Let's see what I have.

1 single licensed TDS3 (possibly 2).
1 single licensed WormGuard (possibly 2..)
1 single licensed port Explorer.
1 Action Pack

Gavin once accumulated all my license info
into one email, but I misplaced that email.

When I first set my eyes on TDS3 I was amazed at
its complexity. At that time, only TDS3 and BOClean
were the major players. Agnitum Tauscan et. al
were just under the radar. I never really did
check out the full potential of TDS3 as it
just was too complicated. It scanning was
slow and hogged quite a bit of resource.
(To be fair, I had NOD32 running so that probably
explains the system usage.)

Being promised TDS4 for the past two to three
years, first as a full product, then as a 3-prong
product, with one part coming out first and
the full product coming out last. Now that
TDS4 has been vaporized, I guess I'll never
get that irritating issue fixed.

Oh well. C'est la vie. 'Tis Wayne's decision.

Good luck Wayne. Best wishes to whatever
else you have planned.

EW

[TheQuest]

Hi, jonnypop

-{ Quote: "Very glad to see Kevin (Boclean) isn't going anyware" }-
Nor was TDS-3 on the 21_07_05 :- Why should I buy TDS-3? (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=89920)

So many closed treads on TDS-4 it was a big Joke.

A Promise that is broken, will always stay Broken, may be fogiven but still a broken promise.

I will have many email's, because of the people I convince not to wait for TDS-4, buy now I told them. :-[

Take Care
TheQuest 8)

[azumi21]

i think i was the only one who scanned with tds-3 daily.

sure it was big, nasty, and very hungry for power (kinda like me).
but it always got the little sneaky bugger trying to ruin my fragile os.
i will miss it.

oh well, ewido here i come (already have boclean).

looking forward to more great DCS programs like process guard & wormguard !

ch33rs to you all who made it happen!

:D

[notageek]

Good Luck to the DCS crew. I was Thinking of getting TDS-3 but as soon as I read post dating back a few years ago about TDS4 and there was not one I thought I beeter not buy. I had a strange feeling this might of happened.

[Rainwalker]

-{ Quote: "Good Luck to the DCS crew. I was Thinking of getting TDS-3 but as soon as I read post dating back a few years ago about TDS4 and there was not one I thought I beeter not buy. I had a strange feeling this might of happened." }-

I think a great many of us felt this coming for a great many months now........and i also wish DCS the best....looking forward to seeing what they will come up with...

[Starrob]

-{ Quote: "

Very glad to see Kevin (Boclean) isn't going anyware, since this is AT that I have run for long time since I like set it and forget it software. I always recommend to friends with multiple PC's to use free antivirus along with Boclean (because of there license on multiple computers in a single household) as the most cost effective. Although I would still use Boclean even it had pricing like Ewido." }-


I have been reading what Kevin said pretty closely. It might be just me but it almost sounds like he is also not very happy about staying in the AT business because he is appearing to me to be over-worked.

I think after 4 more years of torture, unless something radically changes, you just might find Kevin in a Wal-Marts. I am saying all this jokingly but I think maybe just maybe some of these guys in the smaller outfits are getting burned out by the sheer volume of new malware.

The bigger players such as many AV companies have the resources to hire more people to analyze malware. I think all of the players in the AT industry are smaller players that might not have the resources to hire more people especially since I think the profits for AT software are going down due to competition.

It is just a educated guess but I think that if the BoClean developers were not afraid of lawsuits by the "Big Boys" for breach of contract that BoClean that BoClean might also be going the way of TDS.

Unless something somehow changes over the next 4 years, I have a feeling BoClean might make a exit also. Kevin's comments made me understand something a bit more too. I don't think he really wants to make a really big play for more individual end-users because in the end his bread and butter is corporate contracts and government contracts. Mostly all a individual user brings is more customer service requests which eat up time and money.

I always tried to figure out why BoClean did not offer a trial but now I understand. Trial software just brings on more headaches. He would have to put up solving some problem for some individual end-user that might not buy the product anyway. I now see he did not want to expend any more resources on handling even more customer service requests from individual users that might possibly ditch the software any way at the end of the trial.

Usually if people make a investment in the software then they will care more about trying to make it work on their computer before requesting a refund. A trial user is more likely to whine and complain, not take things as serious about getting the software to work because no investment was made and then ditching the software after the BoClean developers expended much time and energy trying to resolve a problem.

Maybe I am wrong...but I like amusing myself with interesting theories every once and awhile.

So right now BoClean is still in the game for 4 more years...then they might be out. Ewido still looks serious about putting out a product (as of now). Same with a2. I don't really have a feel for Trojanhunter.....what will they do? Are they the next to fall or will they still keep standing?

All of the rest of the players calling themselves AT's are going to fade away, I think. If the King can't survive (TDS) and BoClean developer is getting burned out then how in the world are the rest going to survive?

I think the days of the dedicated AT are nearing a end unless some drastic thing that I could not possibly forsee happens. So there is hope for dedicated AT fans but it is a extremely small hope. In about 4 years time, I think there will only be Anti-malware scanners, maybe firewall products, and either generic or pro-active protection software.

Let's see how the soap opera plays out. I got my popcorn and I am ready to be entertained.



Starrob

[lance-lance]

7-22-05>>Firstly- To: ALL who maintained TDS-3, I am greatly disappointed for the end of TDS-3).. I paid $49, Receipt# WYVE38SF for TDS-3 on 1-5-04 & it has been an excellent - dependable app. TDS-3 was quick & able to catch-identify files that "Trojan Remover" (by; SimplySup) can not.. I paid for the TDS-3 AFTER I already had Trojan Remover for some time.. Trojan Remover does NOT have the abilities that TDS-3 had.. But, Both of them worked well together & I had VERY good coverage & security...

>>RE; Your Support-Service); After I received error messages on 2 different occasions I emailed you & received a VERY prompt service-reply to my 2 emails.. Another time I simply had a question & once I notified you of my change in service providers & email address change which was promptly confirmed for your records & the members area... Many outfits could care less, once a person has paid for the product..

>>RE; Notification: If possible-If you are keeping a notification list )); I would like to be notified "if & when" you produce another app which is similar-capable of the security level that TDS-3 provided.. I do not expect the "ProcessGuard" to equal the TDS-3 & may interfere w/ other apps on my pc although, I will try it as you offer it as a consolation.. Prevention is Great BUT garbage will get in & without a scanner I believe that one will be screwed..

>>RE; Your Advice): I am asking your advice on another Trojan Scan type app on the market which is similar to the effectiveness of TDS-3.. Do you consider "Trojan Hunter" as being very good? .. I would appreciate your suggestion(s) very much..

>>RE; My lic) is attached for your offering of a free "Process Guard" .

>>Thank You, To: ALL who maintained TDS-3 during the 16 months that I had the pleasure to own & know the security & effectiveness that it provided.

>>Good Luck, lance

[Pilli]

-{ Quote: " Do you consider "Trojan Hunter" as being very good? .. I would appreciate your suggestion(s) very much.. " }- Lance, Your best bet is to try a few others TH, Ewido and maybe A2.
BoClean is also recommended though there is not trial version but there is a money back guarantee that is strictly adhered to.

Although TDS3 will no longer be updated it's many useful utilities will still be helpful. :)

Pilli

[Detox]

yeah I must say the last thing I'm about to do despite all this is uninstall the thing!!! It'll be on my machine for a while yet ;)

[myguess]

-{ Quote: "Actually, why not collaborate w/ one of the other small companies? Seems like OnlineArmor would be a good one.. I know they hire contractors. It seems like it would be a good way to keep the 'baby' from dying completely.. even if just for signatures or something." }-


Why should they collaborate? I would think that a good healthy competition between different anti-malware vendors would be better, and would produce a better product on all sides, with the consumer reaping the rewards. But I have little doubt DCS would come out on top again. :)

But if DCS is going to put out a super new anti-malware product that would compliment PG, I would most definitely purchase it over anything put out by those other less well known, and less respected companies, with absolutely no or very little track record. ;)

[beetlejuice69]

Well I`ll continue to buy and support DCS. They`re good at what they do...making security software.

[worldcitizen]

Well, it was inevitable. There is no way a TDS 4 could compete openly with products like KAV. I have stated in other threads that I only ever needed to use TDS 3 once and have never had any need for it since then.

I have TDS 3 but also Process Guard, Port Explorer, Crypto Suite and Wormguard.

The only thing I would like that I could use would be Regdefend

I bought ALL DCS products so I'm very disappointed not being offered something like RegDefend because I have everything else.

I would be very happy if some arrangement could be made and would promise to continue to support DCS sofware but as it stands now I'm depressed and disappointed but maybe DCS has some heart and will cheer me up a bit - after all I waited 2 years for TDS 4 and all for nothing!!

Dave

[A884126]

As a recent customer who bought TDS & WG & PG I am also frustrated that I will not get an updated version (this is a lot of money for a home user). I guess you thought about it since a while and you were still selling your program at that time.
I guess people who just bought a Rover felt the same way looking for spare parts.
I really hope that WG will not follow the same way...

I only hope you guys will make a commercial gesture for those who just bought your soft and already have PG or PE. How do we call it? Loyalty program?

Anyway I whish you good luck and please think about your new business model for the next few years.

[Starrob]

I know many say they will continue to buy and support DCS no matter what. Some say that they do not care to purchase from a smaller outfit that does not have a track record yet for success......but what if a larger player got involved and put out superior software?

I just ran across a comment today from a guy that I read a lot that analyzes both mutual funds and stocks rather sucessfully. Here is a quote from him that I found here http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,105148,00.html :

"Jonas Max Ferris, MAXfunds.com:There’s a bull market in computer viruses. Here’s what the deal is: the only reason why Microsoft (MSFT) hasn’t wiped out this business is because if they did, by giving away free virus things, the regulators would be all over them. Google (GOOG) can wipe them out. They won’t have regulatory issues. If you look at how Google has executed things like their desktop search, it’s just a matter of time before they get into these kinds of virus and security issues, and really rub out the companies that are trying to live off these recurring monthly revenue from virus stuff."

I like to look for interesting things that might possibly happen in the future. Sometimes my interest is for investment. Other times it is for my personal security (as I travel to many of the places that make the nightly news) and other times, it concerns my computer security.

That comment by Jonas Ferris caught my eye because it is just the sort of "outside the box" thing that Google would do and unlike companies that most people would consider the "Big Boys", this company has proven it can really execute, innovate and dominate in ways that Microsoft can no longer do.

A lot of people already got the Google pop-up blocker. What if google bought out one of these small time operators that have interesting technology and branded it the Google Anti-malware defense system. If they execute on that like they do everything else many bigger players such as Symantec would have a difficult time surviving, let alone the smaller players such as DCS.....but then again DCS might be one of the smaller type players a Google might be interested in.

Don't mind me....I like engaging in interesting conspiracy theories occasionally. Some of my theories have a low probability of happening, although this theory I consider in the realm of possibility.


Starrob

[A884126]

Some companies instead of buying other companies do some technologies agreements.

http://www.agnitum.com/news/20050215.html
http://www.sophos.com/pressoffice/pressrel/us/20050207marketgrowth.html

However getting bigger and providing more and more new functions into security suites increase faster as ZA or Agnitum do:
http://www.agnitum.com/news/20050721.html

Another way to improve their business model?

[trock]

May I ask, how long will it take to get a licensed copy of PG after I sent in my details?

Thank you.

[Bubba]

-{ Quote: "I bought ALL DCS products so I'm very disappointed not being offered something like RegDefend because I have everything else." }-You do realize DiamondCS and RegDefend\Ghost Security are not of the same Company :-\

-{ Quote: "then again DCS might be one of the smaller type players a Google might be interested in." }-or an under the radar company like InterActiveCorp (http://www.iac.com/) and it's AskJeeves\Teoma search....with the likes of Barry Diller (http://www.iac.com/index/management/corporate_management/office_of_the_chair/bio_cmoc_bdiller.htm) behind it. Lack of a better word....this Game is huge....and money talks.

[gre87y]

-{ Quote: "May I ask, how long will it take to get a licensed copy of PG after I sent in my details?

Thank you." }-
I would like the know this also. At least confirm you recieved my e-mail and everything was in order or not.

[0-0]

-{ Quote: "I would like the know this also. At least confirm you recieved my e-mail and everything was in order or not." }-

You should get it Monday (Perth time) then

[Pilli]

-{ Quote: "I would like the know this also. At least confirm you recieved my e-mail and everything was in order or not." }- DCS do not work weekends as a rule, so you may have to wait until Monday for a reply.

I guess that DCS will email all recent purchasers (a year or two?) first with an offer when things are ironed out.

[Jooske]

Not been online due to many circumstances, seeing this, comes as a shock. For the moment i feel jobless, homeless. As you can read in my "thankyou" thread (light blue link in my sig) i am with DiamondCS since they picked me up in 1999 all shivering, hacked and destructed computer and helped me getting where i am now.
So these almost 6 years, lots of support, education, growth, beta-testing, joy with the software, the users, the company, in the forums, clean system, this is what i see looking back.

Looking at the plans Wayne described longer ago, the ActiveGuard, a TDS cut in pieces into other products, whatever ........ As Wayne described lot of technology developed for TDS-4 is put in other products we are using already, so even though our future security suite will no longer have the name of TDS Pro on top, let's be confident our computer security and support will be in the good hands it has always been.

Thank you Wayne, Gavin and others of the team, Pilli --- looking forward to new developments.
Wishing you good luck and joy in the next stages.

[Dieter Bressem]

This is my comment:
When I read the headline first I was shocked, thinking that DCS will be sold to a "big player" like SYMANTEC or McAfee.
Maybe this will be the next step ?
Using TDS (and the other products) since many years I have to say that I always have been satisfied with the products, the support and the help of the "TDS-family" in the official forum and here, no Dummies, most of them really experts or at least experienced users.
I recommended their products to many people and I am sure that the anger is now over me. That's why I understand the frustration of people having bought TDS just a few month ago (many of them the whole suite).
Ok, **** happens. Keep on your good work, we will wait for the release of another outstandig product.
BTW I miss the comment of Dallen ??

Dieter

[controler]

BoClean is also bound by the government contracts not to touch the kernel.
Unless Kevin can keep up with rootkits without touching the kernel, why would it be safe to use BoClean? The other competition is NOT bound by the kernel.

Ther is only a very few softwares I have paid for over the years, because of just using beta software or getting a free lic for all my hard work testing. Here is the list. Boclean, the action pac (TDS-3, Wormguard & PE ) Regdefend, Spysweeper & GhostSurf.
NOD & KAv won't go away because they DO have you pay by the years for DEFS.

Personaly, I requested another LIC for PG to use on my laptop.

One thing you should remember about Boclean is their LIC is good for your desktop & laptop.

I should appoligise for being one of those single users that have contacted Kevin but if I remember correct, most of my e-mails were with reguard to conflicts with other software and would hope a developer would want to know this type info.
Getting an e-mail from Kevin was like getting a new exciting book to read LOL
Always included more info then needed. I always learn something new from Kevins e-mails and posts.
Maybe we should make a deal with Kevin to not use our PC's so he can go to
someplace nice to just kick back and drink bloody mary's all day in the warm sun. Wait!!!!!!!!!!! I need to do that to.
I dough after 4 years he would go to work for the BIG money. He has too many morals for that.

I am sure DSC will provide some pretty cool new programs.
Look at PG. DO you really need anything else if used correctly?
Yes it could be made a bit bmore non-techi friendly.
We will see how it all plays out.

I know this might not be a nice thing to say, but I have heard some of the AV companies also make trojans. Wher is your loyalty at? that is the big question people. Some may just say, I am sticking with american made, ya just never know.

controler

[Don Pelotas]

-{ Quote: "BTW I miss the comment of Dallen ??

Dieter" }-
Don't worry, Dieter. He's still typing, it wil be long post. ;) ;D

[beetlejuice69]

Good post controler.

[Bubba]

-{ Quote: "He's still typing, it wil be long post. ;) ;D" }-and we have plenty of room for it :lurking: :-X

[Jooske]

Among the many users are still many using win98, me, 95, who can use TDS and Port Explorer, WormGuard and not ProcessGuard. I hope there will be a good AT protection and scanner (sorry Pilli, i know you don't like scanners, but sometimes we really must use them...) for the win98 family too.

[Rainwalker]

I will play the devil's advocate..........Jason is gone :(

[Starrob]

-{ Quote: "This is my comment:
When I read the headline first I was shocked, thinking that DCS will be sold to a "big player" like SYMANTEC or McAfee.
Maybe this will be the next step ?


Dieter" }-



It is my feeling that "Symantec" and "McAfee" are the weaker players. It will probably be Google or InterActiveCorp (The real big boys) that will make the earth-shattering moves.



Starrob

[Pilli]

Hi RainWalker, We don't need no devils advocate here, the malware writers do that job well enough.
All small developers struggle to make a few bob, let's not make it harder :) Jason has his own company now and I am sure that was not an easy option to take.

Pilli

[Optimist]

-{ Quote: "I will play the devil's advocate..........Jason is gone :(" }-

A new conspiracy theory is born. ;D

[Jooske]

No need for conspiracy.
After the weekend we'll hear more, soon enough.
Read between the lines in the WormGuard thread too.

Whatever will be the new product(s), i'm waiting to betatest and support as soon as possible.
At the moment i'm looking for a job as well, btw so this is a bit of a sad coincidence.

[controler]

I put my faith & trust in those with morals. Just because one has morals doesn't mean they sleep any better. Those without morals sleep just as well.
As mentioned, there as many great programmers working for the other side as the right side, if not more.

What drives the company? Is it because they are actualy looking out for their fellow man or is it greed?

Do they make a product for the average joe or one directed at the more advanced? I always say, make it for the average joe as best as you can.

When submitting features or funtions, ALWAYS look at how the home user will react. or have the option like most do now to go to advanced or simple mode.

One of the items those here stress in recommending software IS good support. Sorry for that one.

I do like some of the newer security sweets. I am going to bite my tounge today and say I have been using Mcaffes new sweet & so far I like it.
I have never been able to say that before.

I like KAV's new sweet. Anytime you have full integration , things just run smoother. That is not saying just because they have the best AV, they will have the best firewall.

Two of the easiest home user friendly programs today are still Look & Stop & Boclean.

Kevin? Get ahold of Fredric & form an all new program with the newest kernel mode stuff & L&S. Offer it to the corporate users & let the government keep using the current BoClean. ;D
It would be sure to be a hit.

controler

[Jooske]

Maybe microsoft's renaming Longhorn (took that looooooooooong too!!) to Windows Vista caused all this? TDVista? ATVista?

[controler]

Oh GAwd I hate the new name vista. MAybe it is a guy thing but I like Longhorn much better. Then again Longhorn is associated more with Texas where everything is suppose to be BIG LOL
Longhorn is a tough sounding name, vista is more continental?would a good name for a program that does alot of hooking me HAPPYHOOKER?

whoesssssme

controler

[Starrob]

-{ Quote: "Maybe microsoft's renaming Longhorn (took that looooooooooong too!!) to Windows Vista caused all this? TDVista? ATVista?" }-

How about Hasta La vista, baby!!!


Starrob

[Infinity]

LMAO Jooske ... don't make us paranoid :P

[Jooske]

Rather would see some more Aussie name TDRoo? ATRoo? RooGuard?


About the other remark somewhere up in this thread: it has some good parts Aussie-based software which is free from other countries' restrictions. 8)

[Infinity]

Jooske...you're killing me...we'll see soon enough, you're right .. I cannot wait either honestly...but it's not that good being that curious all the time ;)

you should have known that :P

hi hi

[Valkyri001]

Just don't completely disappear. I for one appreciate all the help you folks have provided over the years. ;)

[Jooske]

TDS will serve for the network tools and scripts at least, you have your own jukebox included in it, etc and with the CokeMachine script you can serve internet all voice commanded, so TDS is still useable for lots of other things besides AT protection.

[Infinity]

still, it's way ahead of others...can you believe this? .. says enough to me :)

[KELLY KYLE]

THERE ARE ONLY. THREE antivirus software That I use
Tds-3 is one and the others are Housecall.antivirus.com and Kaspersky Anti-Virus. they are the only ones that work for finding out the virus and in today
virus hunting Tds-3 Was the best of them thank you.
kelly Tkachenko Juneau Alaska And good luck on some time off ..

[junkDawgie]

i can sure understand the desire to make money, but the facts are somewhat distorted in your analysis.

since the market and need for protection from trojans is growing HUGELY, why don't you say what you mean?

its too big a job for you.

you had a great idea... its still a great idea.... but you would rather do something not so much work.

[Jooske]

This is a very mean thing to say, we all know better, all those years 24/7 support engineers stand by and we all caught Wayne on all hours.
From free licenses nobody gets bread on the table.
This is about responsibility for the best security solutions for the users' systems, among which large corporates as well.
Just wait and see for new outstanding solutions.

[Triple Helix]

I'm sorry to See TDS go :'( , but looking forward to New Products from Diamond CS soon!!


Cheers to the Diamond CS Team!!!!;)

Daniel

[richrf]

Hi Jooske,

Just wanted to give you a big THANKS for all of your help, and of course Pilli, over the years. You guys have been super!

Cya around,
Rich

[mercurie]

All,
As I said earlier, a product line up change in your products is not that unusual. Strobe, I think said in 4 years maybe Kevin will exit too. Maybe. :-\ But with Technology 4 years is three steps from forever. A lot can happen. Pure speculation and as he said never a dull moment.

But keep in mind there will be some migration to BoClean as other products drop off. This will increase the volumn of personal user market for the likes of PSC maybe not enough, but it should help. Certainly A2 and Ewido well get a slice too.

The real key to this is MS OneCare or how the follow on will be and how well the vast majority AV companies do at getting massive trojan and other evilwares influx in the next say 4 or 5 years.

Whatever the case maybe evilware is not going away and there will always be a few best of breed products to deal with it which make information from the likes of Wilders and those like it imho more important then ever. :)

[Rainwalker]

-{ Quote: "Hi RainWalker, We don't need no devils advocate here, the malware writers do that job well enough.
All small developers struggle to make a few bob, let's not make it harder :) Jason has his own company now and I am sure that was not an easy option to take.

Pilli" }-

Hi Pilli :).............i am not trying to make anything harder. I am well aware of Jason having his own company. This was part of my point. I have always been under the impression that he was a BIG part of development.....maybe i was wrong in this. When he left i felt in my heart it was the bell tolling for TDS......as i posted with post #71 i have had a feeling of the end near being very near for many months now, and as i also posted in the post, i wish them all the best and look forward to new products.....i have paid for TDS, Wormguard, Port Explorer and Process Guard............again, i had no idea i was making anything harder for anyone, being that we all are adults here.

[richrf]

Hi RainWalker,

I understood your point. Certainly, when a key developer in any company leaves, it is reasonable to consider the effect that this could have on the company. I think developers, such as Jason, have many possible reasons for starting their own company, but most of the time it is because it is "Time". It's nice to have an opportunity to run your own company - at least until it gets too tiring or boring (I'v owned several during my career).

But, there are many excellent developers out there, and I am sure that both companies will find the type personnel resources that they need. Usually, what is in short supply is that "creative spark" - or brand new idea, that really drives a a new product. Also, surprisingly enough, usually good business know-how is difficult to come by. The greatest product will usually not go very far, if there isn't some business acumen to back it up. In this very competitive marketplace, both technical and business know-how are both "must haves".

Wishing both Wayne and Jason great success with their future undertakings.

Rich

[Rainwalker]

-{ Quote: "Hi RainWalker,

I understood your point. Certainly, when a key developer in any company leaves, it is reasonable to consider the effect that this could have on the company. I think developers, such as Jason, have many possible reasons for starting their own company, but most of the time it is because it is "Time". It's nice to have an run your own company - at least until it gets too tiring or boring (I owned several during my career).

But, there are many excellent developers out there, and I am sure that both companies will find the type personnel resources that they need. Usually, what is in short supply is that "creative spark" - or brand new idea, that really drives a a new product. Also, surprisingly enough, usually good business know-how is difficult to come by. The greatest product will usually not go very far, if there isn't some business acumen to back it up. In this very competitive marketplace, both technical and business know-how are both "must haves".

Wishing both Wayne and Jason great success with their future undertakings.

Rich" }-

Yes Rich, i well understand and agree with you.........

[AAPlus2]

Hello, To all

Well i have to say this is one bad sad day not so much
for me but my pops for now his big love Lavasoft free support
site is no more. & now his # one tool is bye bye

i say thanks for all the great times you gave my pops
& not just support for TDS-3 but the help with any problems
that came up

The best to you & all your great team

Gogo

[Triple Helix]

-{ Quote: "Hi Jooske,

Just wanted to give you a big THANKS for all of your help, and of course Pilli, over the years. You guys have been super!

Cya around,
Rich" }-

Does this mean you are leaving? ??? Hope not!!

Cheers,

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "something like RegDefend because I have everything else.

" }-

Dave

How or why would expect they could offer you RegDefend. I think it was great of them to offer 2 of their other products, but RegDefend isn't one of their products, it is the product of another company, just as is KAV or NAV.

Pete

[tempnexus1]

WOW!
Can anyhone mail me thelatest def file to:
optinmail2003ATyahooDOTcom

[tempnexus]

Then what Anti-Trojan and malware scanner an I use?
I know of BoClean but it's a running process scanner and not file scanner. Thus, what file scanner comes close to the detection and malware removal of TDS-3 product?

ALso how far along was tds-4?

[BlueZannetti]

Just some random thoughts after considering things for a couple of days....
I can't say that this was even on my radar screen as a possibility. A number have mentioned seeing this coming, you're obviously more prescient than I.
As the owner of 5 TDS3 licenses, I am disappointed that the product line has completed its run. All my licenses are between 1 and 2 or so years old. They have helped in a handful of difficult situations, provided a desired second opinion in many others, and can still be used for some of the additional tools. At the end of the day, I received fair value from the product and from DCS in this time. Paint me satisfied, and a bit sad.
Stepping back, considering your options, and making a decided change of direction is an emotionally wretching time and it takes guts, but is sometimes necessary. As with any major change, the wisdom of the decision will only be apparent over time. However, it is often the difference between managing a situation towards success versus simply trying to stave off failure - these are very different beasts.
Look at the anti-malware market over the past year. Look at where it is heading by necessity, the necessity that overall prevention is vastly preferred to post-mortem redress. Lots of new options are available, and they all have a common theme - they are gate keepers with respect to system behavior, not monitors of the identity of processes executing those behaviors. I guess this train has left the station, although until these tools become a little more casual user friendly, signature based solutions do have life.
Arguably, ProcessGuard had already surpassed TDS as DCS' crown jewel for the future. I assume the future lies in this direction.
If one of the leading AT vendors has decided a complete change of approach is needed, it is probably something consumers should also weigh. While I await whatever is on the horizon from DCS in addition to PG/WG/PE, plenty of options remain. The competing AT's still have planty of life, many AV's have aggressively augmented their AT functionality to equal or nearly equal that of the dedicated AT's (although I do still prefer to have BOClean at the ready on my own systems), and a number of behavioral-based prevention tools have appeared. However you look at it, consumers have plenty of options to examine.
Rather than dwell on the passing of TDS, I'd rather focus on what the future holds. To Wayne, Gavin, and the rest of the DCS crew - thanks for the security as well as the memories. Now, let's say we make some more of both?

Blue

[Dazed_and_Confused]

:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

While I can understand their need to discontinue this product, I am still very sorry to see it go. In my opinion, TDS was DCS' flagship product, using leading-edge technology / thinking. DCS discontinuing this product is tantamount to Microsoft discontinuing development of Windows to concentrate on Office.

As a user of every one of your fine products, at least I can look forward to their enhancements.


Good luck DCS! :D

[TheQuest]

Hi, BlueZannetti

-{ Quote: "I can't say that this was even on my radar screen as a possibility. A number have mentioned seeing this coming, you're obviously more prescient than I." }-
Same here I keep coming back in total disbelief, I can not explain how I feel, it is very strange, after all it is only a software program, but I will still miss it.
-{ Quote: "Arguably, ProcessGuard had already surpassed TDS as DCS' crown jewel for the future. I assume the future lies in this direction." }-
But as RainWalker says Jason's gone and I think he was a very big part of PG.
-{ Quote: "Rather than dwell on the passing of TDS, I'd rather focus on what the future holds. To Wayne, Gavin, and the rest of the DCS crew - thanks for the security as well as the memories. Now, let's say we make some more of both?" }-
Yes I do now have to say to my friends at DiamondCS, my very best wishes to you and your future.[and coming programs]

I still lement the passing of TDS, but from its ashes may DCS grow.

Take Care,
TheQuest 8)

PS: But not The Ashes their coming this way. ;D

[NTW64]

just damn.......

[rdsu]

To DCS team:

I hope that you can continue the great work on the other products, improve and innovate your techniques against threats to protect us... ;)

Best Regards

[Infinity]

there are some other ashes as well that needs serious consideration some times :P

[quexx88]

I won't be too angry so long as I see some significant improvements in other programs, especially ProcessGuard.

[couldbe]

hi,
stunned...
hope you keep current customers in the loop re release of the new product.
It would seem to me that any new product may block any intrusive software in a manner in which it is said that the norton av program was originally developed to stop any av being able to be effective but was abandoned in favour of a model that would provide a continued income.
Couldbe

[Carver]

-{ Quote: "WOW!
Can anyhone mail me thelatest def file to:
optinmail2003ATyahooDOTcom" }-


Sent,expect a email from georgewcarver_AT_nj_DOT_rr_DOT_com

[maddawgz]

Having a nervous breakdown now!! No trojan protection? When new suite come out?? help ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

[Rainwalker]

-{ Quote: "Having a nervous breakdown now!! No trojan protection? When new suite come out?? help ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(" }-

For what's worth...not much, i know... i have been surfing for 6 or 7 years and i got one trojan years ago and a year or two later a trace was found by TDS..........granted, i don't do porn, but i sometimes go to sites that might upset some people( those of right wing persuasion ) so where are all these nasties coming from ?....................don't misunderstand me...i know they are abundent...just wondering.....that said, i will always use anti-trojan programs because that first one wiped me out.....no more of that thank you very much....

[Chris12923]

I have been away a while but not really suprised.

Well it seems there are alot of understanding people here. I for one am not one of them even though I am a happy PG3 user. I am glad though that I did not purchase TDS-3 even though DCS did promise a free upgrade to TDS-4... Marketing ploy maybe? Yes I understand that DCS is now saying they will give TDS-3 users a license to one of their other products but that is not what was promised but yet constantly they said not to long before TDS-4 is ready. That is all we read over and over again...in the near future...blah blah blah. I am not one to downgrade vendors for trying, but to keep people waiting for this incredible super product and then just say sorry we are not releasing it now just makes no sense to me.

"Not much development time has actually been wasted as a lot of technologies developed for TDS4 will be seen in our next product release, which we're keeping a tight lid on for now but that is literally just around the corner." How many times did we hear this??

Good luck in the future but I think I will stick with vendors who actually release the products that they tell people they are working on.

Thanks,

Chris

[\o/]

-{ Quote: "Having a nervous breakdown now!! No trojan protection? When new suite come out?? help ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(" }-

Use either or both of the free AT's alongside PG, and a firewall. Big protection :D

.. use an alternate browser too ;)

[Pilli]

-{ Quote: "they are gate keepers with respect to system behavior, not monitors of the identity of processes executing those behaviors. I guess this train has left the station, although until these tools become a little more casual user friendly, signature based solutions do have life." }- Very well put Blue, this has been my opinion for quite a while now. We would all do well to consider alternatives to scanner based protection.
One of the biggest problems with scanners is the introduction of more False Positives which can cause nearly as many problems as real malware in terms of system damge and fear.
The other main problem is the sheer number if signatures that these scanning tools add up to, AntiSpyware, AntiTrojan, AntiVirus, consider adding the KAV, TDS and Giant MS sigs together - roughly 300,000 - All have to be processed using valuable resources and with their inherent FP danger.
I find it all too much and consider preventitive tools far superior. ProcessGuard, RegDefend and Tiny come to mind but, as yet, none of them are mainstream user friendly programs, this I am sure will change fot the better as the train gets up to speed :)

Looking forward to more innovative tools from DCS in the near future. ;D

[pffft]

-{ Quote: "we haven't been able to release it as soon as many of you would've liked, but we thank you for your understanding, and look forward to pleasantly surprising you in the near future when we release the first TDS-4 program" }-
-{ Quote: "we look forward to your feedback in the next month or two after you're able to unleash the power of TDS4 Active Guard on your system :)." }-
-{ Quote: "TDS4 is just around the corner" }-
-{ Quote: "I read awhile back about 4-5 months ago Wayne mentioned TDS-4 was coming soon." }-
So, there's lies, damn lies, statistics, and vaporware.

[ö-ö]

I would not call it a lie. At the time, the above statements were made it was probably intended to release TDS-4.

Several months ago, it was another developer who was accused not to deliver.

"Heh, that time of the month again is it? Your "a2" scanner doesn't detect any versions of The Beast or any other trojan as far as anyone here can tell because it's still just vaporware, yet once again you're wasting more time attacking other anti-trojan scanners?"

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=98706&postcount=42

"So how about it - put your money where your mouth is and release a2 to show us all how it should be done - let your software do the talking, nobody can argue with you then."

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=98720&postcount=49

As regards DCS: I believe that they did not intentionally mislead people. It "just" did not work out as expected. DCS, an Australian Ltd., probably HAD to stop the development of TDS-3/TDS-4 in order to avoid getting into a difficult financial situation. As an owner of a Ltd. you must be careful not to continue to operate a company and incur liabilities if such company is over-indebted or has liquidity problems. Therefore, it is necessary to stop a loss-making project before it's too late.

[Jooske]

This comment is all unneeded, we all do know there never was a lie or misleading people.
Financial situations are not the case here, as many have offered to pay a yearly renewal fee to keep the project going.

Most of us feel bad and frustrated, waited long but we all do know there has never been any intention to put any user on wrong feet and we do know the technologies we are using already for a great part while we can expect the new stuff to come with just not the name TDS Pro on top of it.
TDS became over the years much more then trojan defense with all the new inclusions it it's growing databases, so the name of the flagship did not completely cover it's contents and value anymore since long, it is so much more.
Think of our position as well, the moderators supporting the programs all these years and we can read and write with it, while we also realise the possibilities are limited only by our imagination.
Remember the good times with a whole users family scripting together and planning new options till remote controling our whole house with it, all voice commanded with the included technologies and whatever serious extras people created for system and network administrators. Discussions and scripting should have continued, as the projects were really good in many cases. All those TDS users supporting other users all over internet.
For these (remote) administrative and network tools TDS will still serve us, we can have our own IRC chat in it, i love the traffic bridge, several of the very handy plugins, and lots more.
We can still use the CRC32 integrity check, you name it.
It's just the scanner not updated anymore but still ahead with the current database of many others.

Anyway, we can trust lots of our wishes will be included in future products where possible and much more then we even can think of.
Just patience can save us for now. So again support and encourage the new process and direction in stead of adding new frustrations.

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "I have been reading what Kevin said pretty closely. It might be just me but it almost sounds like he is also not very happy about staying in the AT business because he is appearing to me to be over-worked.

Unless something somehow changes over the next 4 years, I have a feeling BoClean might make a exit also. Kevin's comments made me understand something a bit more too. I don't think he really wants to make a really big play for more individual end-users because in the end his bread and butter is corporate contracts and government contracts. Mostly all a individual user brings is more customer service requests which eat up time and money.

Starrob" }-

Whoops! Sounds like I've made people nervous when it wasn't at all my intent. Certainly I'm comiserating with Wayne, and trying to explain from THIS side of the "reality" why I don't blame him a bit and how I wish *I* could find something more peaceful to do. And in fact, we did come pretty close to going under nearly a year ago owing to very slow sales, and like everyone else in this (including Wayne) I am persistently amused by the assumptions (particularly on DSLR) that we "evil vendors" are getting fabulously rich doing this. Heh. We'd gone from 15 people in 1998 down to four this year while the workload ramped up past "insanity" all the way to "I wanna slit my wrists." Fortunately we all managed to work very hard putting in very long hours and we survived. And as I said, the reality isn't the upfront costs for this kind of software, it's the MAINTAINING and lab work. That's what Wayne also realized. MOST software, you write the code, make sure it's good, SHIP it, get paid and move on to the NEXT project.

But in our case, because things finally turned around for us, we've been hiring lately and have been very fortunate to find some very good analysts which are now just about fully trained and ready to relieve me of "lab duty," "hunting and gathering," and the email. All of this the result of some major government and corporate sales which will fund us for the next four years at least on the BOClean side of the house, even if we don't have one single sale to individuals. That in turn frees me up to go back to work on coding new versions of our "flagship" NSClean and IEClean software as well as some other things which have fallen by the wayside in the madness of the malware explosion of this past year. CODING is what I always liked doing best, and sitting in a lab blowing up machines and figuring out "how do we stop this?" had gotten to be extreme drudgery. I *know* this has also gotten to Wayne and Gavin as surely as it's gotten to me. You can't develop if you're tied up doing the mundane INSTEAD of what you do best. And you can't keep people happy if you don't have time to properly respond to emails when one of your support people doesn't know the answer to a really strange question. Wearing too many hats isn't conducive to continued sanity.

As to my comments about individuals, yes, some can be "high maintenance" type people but then some of the MCSE's I've dealt with have been dumber than a box of bowling balls. "Normal" people usually appreciate a good answer whereas "so-called experts" want to argue the most mundane and arcane parts of theories that in the greater scheme of things, really don't matter at all in the "real world." We see that here and on other sites as well. You know what I mean, the "What if Sparticus had a Piper Cub?" kinda things. :)

But yes, we intend to be here PAST another four years, that is assured with many new long term contracts - the major advantage is that this old burned out coder is going to be passing the drudge work to new people here. And more importantly, they're funding the research for their own needs that are already providing improved code for the next versions of BOClean and many entirely new directions for it.

About the only thing likely to change is the licensing for the individual versions of BOClean for "home use" but no plans are currently in the works to do that now. And anyone who's read their license.txt file knows that we've made promises, and we KEEP those. That license may change in the future along with the pricing for NEW customers at a later time, but nothing's changing now or for the foreseeable future. Bottom line is we're more stable now than we've been in years.

But we've seen some REAL challenges, especially this year. Man, I miss the days when 7 trojans a MONTH was a rough week. :)

[pffft]

-{ Quote: "This comment is all unneeded, we all do know there never was a lie or misleading people." }-
How do we know that? I don't know that.

At least three years went by since the release was "right around the corner". There are many cases of vaporware in the software industry, but can you show me another one where the vendor so constantly said that the release date would be "soon" and "a couple months" so consistently, and for so long--only to have the whole product scrapped afterward?

I know the cheerleaders hate people like me, but that's not my fault. I'm just being objective. How does "a month or two" become a dead product after two or three years or more?

At the very least, they should have put the brakes on new feature development, and released what they had.

Or, tell me why they could so constantly and consistently think that they were very, very close to a release, but never really be. Tell me. I want to know. I realize that software development is difficult, but how do you ride the cusp of "soon... really soon..." for years? How?

I wonder if there ever was a TDS-4 in the works at all. I wouldn't doubt that they were just stringing people along to keep new users buying TDS-3.

[Jooske]

-{ Quote: "At the very least, they should have put the brakes on new feature development, and released what they had." }-
They did:
ProcessGuard
Port Explorer
AutoStartViewer
OpenPorts
Advanced Process Manipulation
Andvanced Process Termination
TaskMan+
CmdLine
DelLater

and updates
etc.

And more repeated: the technologies developed for TDS-4 we are using and more will be included in the new products.

[biggyblue]

I am upset !!!!!

I just purchased tds-3 on June22.

I wrote support 3 days ago requesting a refund.....no answer

[Pilli]

You will probably get a response on Monday, Perth time, though I suspect DCS's mailboxes will be rather full on Monday :)

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "How do we know that? I don't know that.

At least three years went by since the release was "right around the corner". There are many cases of vaporware in the software industry, but can you show me another one where the vendor so constantly said that the release date would be "soon" and "a couple months" so consistently, and for so long--only to have the whole product scrapped afterward?

I know the cheerleaders hate people like me, but that's not my fault. I'm just being objective. How does "a month or two" become a dead product after two or three years or more?

At the very least, they should have put the brakes on new feature development, and released what they had.

Or, tell me why they could so constantly and consistently think that they were very, very close to a release, but never really be. Tell me. I want to know. I realize that software development is difficult, but how do you ride the cusp of "soon... really soon..." for years? How?

I wonder if there ever was a TDS-4 in the works at all. I wouldn't doubt that they were just stringing people along to keep new users buying TDS-3." }-

Hi Pffft

You are assuming that the software was the issue. Read both of Kevin McAleavey's posts. The issue might well not of been the software, but the the support issue. The cost and effort of keeping a TDS style program upto date probably is horrendus. Many people today on the internet are solely interested in what free software they can use. But it costs money to develop the software, and worse yet on some of this software is the cost of maintaining the constant updating. Also the protection model has change, I wonder if a standalone AT product of even the highest calibre would have any chance unless like BoClean, they have huge govornment contracts.

Pete

[richrf]

Hi Pete,

My best guess is that TDS-3 probably could have survived if a correct purchase/subscription revenue model was in place from the beginning. Providing a lifetime of updates without any revenue in return is ultimately going to exhaust any company. This is why this situation could have been predicted (at least by anyone who has owned a software company). The failure here, unfortunately, was in the mistakes made at the very beginning, and the inability to find a way out of the problem (e.g. how to collect revenues on signature updates and future upgrades).

Ultimately, the problem was solved by discontinuing the "non-revenue" producing product and moving the technologies to new, revenue producing products (e.g. ProcessGuard). It's a very tough decision to make, and I understand how difficult the processs must be for DiamondCS. However, I do think that there is a better way to handle new TDS-3 customers, who did not receive fair value, and I hope that DiamondCS finds a avenue/solution that more fairly compensates new customers. I strongly believe that this is a requirement for DiamondCS as it goes forward into its next generation of products and its new company model, which I am sure will have a more reasonable long-term revenue model.

Cya,
Rich

[beetlejuice69]

If I was in bussiness and had to supply thousands of people a product that would put my company in the whole I`d discontinue it too. Then I`d take that same product and rename it and sell it for what it`s worth. My company is back on it`s feet and the people can re-buy it. Now that`s what I`d do...don`t know about anyone else. ;)

[WilliamP]

In the AV,AT software market with the updates required you have to charge a yearly sub. I can certainly understand what happened, but I believe that the money was just part of the reason. We will see what happens in time. If some new new type AT program emerges from DCS then great. But I do feel that the old loyal TDS folks should be offered a deal on it.

[muf]

-{ Quote: "If I was in bussiness and had to supply thousands of people a product that would put my company in the whole I`d discontinue it too. Then I`d take that same product and rename it and sell it for what it`s worth. My company is back on it`s feet and the people can re-buy it. Now that`s what I`d do...don`t know about anyone else. ;)" }-


If i read this correctly, you are suggesting that DCS may rebadge TDS4 and sell it under a different name? Interesting thought. All these 'new and innovative' idea's they said they had for TDS4 but kept them a secret. It could be that they drop the scanner, keep all the 'new and innovative' stuff and sell it as though it's something new. Now wouldn't that a novel way of not giving the free upgrade on the actual upgrade? I was waiting to see what TDS4 had to offer. Maybe i will see TDS4 after all, just with a new name!!!

muf

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "Hi Pffft

You are assuming that the software was the issue. Read both of Kevin McAleavey's posts. The issue might well not of been the software, but the the support issue. The cost and effort of keeping a TDS style program upto date probably is horrendus. Many people today on the internet are solely interested in what free software they can use. But it costs money to develop the software, and worse yet on some of this software is the cost of maintaining the constant updating. Also the protection model has change, I wonder if a standalone AT product of even the highest calibre would have any chance unless like BoClean, they have huge govornment contracts.

Pete" }-

I wouldn't say "huge" in terms of our paid commitments to several governments (curiously not our *OWN*, they believe in SYMANTEC) and some major corporations ... but ADEQUATE. Enough for us to hire up a few more very talented people in several locations across the globe (curiously ALSO, only one or two here in the states) and that makes the difference. We can remain solvent and maintain the job, but then we've always operated on a shoestring and treat our people very well.

A bit MORE "truth" to this for folks to consider ... Wayne and I discussed well over a year ago the rising costs of doing what we do (and hopefully he will see this and CONCUR) and the unexpected consequences of the primary culprit (Windows XP, the swiss cheese of OS's) and wanted to BOTH (like I said, WE nearly went under as a COMPANY around that time) see about going to the "subscription model" for the databases. Alas, some of the newcomers to this "industry" (heh) who still were wet behind the ears decreed to the "marketplace" ... "we will NEVER charge a subscription." Instead, when the costs started mounting up for them as well, they just raised the PRICE of their "shareware" from US$40 to US$50 and simply stopped updating as frequently as they once did. In doing so, they began missing a LOT of trojans. But they remained popular, and both of us were forclosed from being able to recover those costs.

With the option of covering our (mutual) costs on a "hey, sorry lads, this is EXPENSIVE" and going to a subscription, Wayne and us were forced to just "eat it." I can't speak for Wayne's situation, I don't really know, but those costs are unbelievable, and have multiplied continually and STILL do. I see a major "falling out" of a number of the "shareware people" who truly believed that "security software" was a gravy train. Forgive me, I'm laughing my teat off, this is REAL work and requires one HECK of a commitment. I think back to my buddy "Merijn" with his CWSHREDDER ... an "amateur" who did a bangup job until it began to take a serious toll on him. He TOO was smart enough to say "enough" and bailed ...

Like Wayne's operation, we may be "corporations" or "Ltd's" but in truth, we're all small "mom and pop" type operations on a shoestring who have to deliver the equivalent of multibillion dollar NASDAQ-listed corporations without the resources of conglomerates. And both Wayne and we have managed to do just that. But having to spend all of our efforts on first "backdoors" and then "spyware" which is now employing the SAME people who once wrote the old calssic trojans and doing VERY well financially, it does become difficult. At least WE have the resources and are able to keep up with it. I suppose that's the reason why I've always bristled at places like DSLR (a MUCH larger "corporation" than any of us) calling us "evil vendors" ... SMALL companies are swift to do things - no "meetings," no "study groups," no "vision statements," just get it done. And with more mouths to feed in a world of "free," there's less and less for each "player" in the pie. And a number of the "free anti-whatevers" are trojans themselves! :(

But the biggest issue has always been the "newcomers" who do not know what it really takes, do not have the resources, make promises that they are not keeping and then impose on the others unrealistic expectations among the public. Wayne apparently got tired of trying to fight a nearly impossible situation. I *commend* him on doing what he did and I do not do so as a "competitor" ... Wayne can confirm that he and I were the BEST of friends over all these years and at least WE shared, joked and got along well.

What TDS will GET out of this (as well as all of YOU) is the loss of a major drain on him, his company and his people. TDS is now FREED of a literal "albatross" and can now focus on all sorts of new toys and new treats, and move forward. The only reason we're able to survive is that we're managing to cover most of the costs and that will allow us to continue providing what we have as WELL AS finally being able to get back into development ourselves. WE'VE been concerned about people's expectations of a BOClean "5" and sadly, all of the work just keeping up with what was on our plates completely halted any hopes of developing that as we were mired in trojans with too few hands to do them.

So when folks whine about "TDS4 is vaporware" I twinge at that myself. I'd hoped to have a whole new generation of BOClean "5" out at the end of last year. Sadly, there was never any time to CODE it. And now, we're not even planning to go in the direction we'd thought - "file scanning" which I've always abhored (after all, your AV does that, why would anyone think we'd do any better at it than companies with THOUSANDS of people) that concept. We're headed in an entirely different direction ourselves and now I too will have some free time as our new lab people are coming up to speed.

Folks REALLY need a better understanding that what's going on over at TDS really IS a good thing for existing users - it frees them up to do some GENUINE whizbang. And were it not for BOClean's future being assured by others, I'd likely have made the same decision myself at some point, and provide something even better to our customers as we're planning to do by the end of this year in addition to maintaining the familiar BOClean.

Wayne is doing the RIGHT thing though for HIS customers ... even if it's a bumpy ride at the moment.

[beetlejuice69]

-{ Quote: "If i read this correctly, you are suggesting that DCS may rebadge TDS4 and sell it under a different name? Interesting thought. All these 'new and innovative' idea's they said they had for TDS4 but kept them a secret. It could be that they drop the scanner, keep all the 'new and innovative' stuff and sell it as though it's something new. Now wouldn't that a novel way of not giving the free upgrade on the actual upgrade? I was waiting to see what TDS4 had to offer. Maybe i will see TDS4 after all, just with a new name!!!

muf" }-

Now I`m not saying that`s what they did, I`m saying that`s what I`d do. :)

[BlueZannetti]

How about we keep some level of rational discussion within this thread? Unsupportable , gratuitous, and idle speculation is really not helpful at all.

Blue

[toad258]

After reading various reviews and visiting this forum I finally purchased the action pack and PG on the 14 th of June 2005.

The reasons where a free upgrade to tds 4
very good customer service
very good forum (this one)

Too bad its turned out to be a unlimited update of definitions of not even two months.

Although I can understand the reasons given, I hope there will be a more suitable solutions for those who already own the software that's being given away.

I am very curious what the future will bring, and wish you all the best.

greetings toad258

[Don Pelotas]

-{ Quote: "This comment is all unneeded, we all do know there never was a lie or misleading people.
Financial situations are not the case here, as many have offered to pay a yearly renewal fee to keep the project going." }-
How can you say that there was no misleading people? TDS-4 whatever the excuses now, has been promissed for many months (years in fact), when ever a question about it's availability was asked by a prospective buyer/user, the answer was always, just buy TDS-3 the upgrade to TDS-4 is free, there's no need to wait!! If thats not misleading the users, then i don't know what is?

I'm a DiamondCS costumer (Process Guard) and i'm very happy with that, and don't wish to see Wayne & co go down, but if i were a TDS-3 costumer who had bought it within the last 4-6 months i would feel ahem.....frustrated, if i didn't get a free upgrade or a discount to this new flagship product mentioned, instead of offering an extra PG & PE to the users who in many cases already have bought this.

I can understand the many users in this thread who bought TDS-3 some years ago feeling less frustrated with this decision, but what about those who have bought within the last 6 months on the promis that TDS-4 was around the corner and there was reason to wait because the upgrade was free? They now are left with nothing, exept a perhaps a PG or PE license which might be useless to them and their needs, if they were fast mind you. ;)

Again i'm costumer who have been satified with support etc, but i wish they would have handled this better, like giving users the option to upgrade to this new behavior type program or whatever it is, if they wanted to, instead of the timelimited PG/PE offer.

Like everybody else in this thread i wish DCS good luck with the future projects, who knows we may think two years from now that as Kevin McAleavey says: This was the best decision, maybe even for the costumers.

I do have one question though: This program that apparantly is literally just around the corner, is this a TDS-4 kind of corner........ ;) ;D

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: "How can you say etc. etc. etc." }-
Don,

Thanks for your clear point of view.

I feel/see it the same way.

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "How can you say that there was no misleading people? TDS-4 whatever the excuses now, has been promissed for many months (years in fact), when ever a question about it's availability was asked by a prospective buyer/user, the answer was always, just buy TDS-3 the upgrade to TDS-4 is free, there's no need to wait!! If thats not misleading the users, then i don't know what is?" }-Don,

I cannot speak for others, but I did try to emphasize as I always do, buy for what the program is today, not what is promised tomorrow. If one did that, purchased TDS3 for TDS3, one received a top flight application which performed well in its lifetime with the understanding one would not have to pay an additional sum to upgrade in the future. That last proviso is now moot. However, based on what was known at the time, it was decent advice, and the same advice that I'd offer to anyone else today.

As for the recent purchasers, that's only an issue DCS can handle. There's a whole collection of issues here including whether they already own the offered alternate programs, how long they've been an owner and so on. It is probably best pursued off-line on a case-by-case business.

With respect to the future programs, DCS does offer, and I assume will continue to offer, standing discounts to existing customers based on the number of programs owned.

Blue

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "I do have one question though: This program that apparantly is literally just around the corner, is this a TDS-4 kind of corner........ ;) ;D" }-

*IF* you happen to be referring to what we're doing as far as OUR "future" that's already been in the works for about a month now, despite the mayhem on our end. If you're referring to TDS, I apologise for interjecting then ...

No, BOClean will remain BOClean, designed to deal with "just came in" as well as "I bought it because I'm ALREADY infected" situations. We've promised free upgrades for the 4.xx versions, and SHOULD a 5.xx come along (unlikely) then we will STILL support the 4.xx version "promise" for at least the next four years as people have always expected BOClean to be, with of course the most current requirements for how it works.

What is IN the works however, is something a bit more ... "proactive." BOClean was always intended throughout the years as something small, fast and unobtrusive for system admins to distribute to "clueless desktop cube farm users" to just make bad stuff simply go away sans fanfare, "set it and forget it, leave the damned helpdesk alone, we're too busy explaining to adminiswigs, docudoids and deputy junior wiglets that the "C:>" prompt is NOT a test to determine if you can guess what "C is larger than." Simply put, BOClean was a completely automatic (and most often invisible) "go away" to all those desktops in the event that the antivirus didn't or couldn't detect and remove a (as they think) "simple virus" and throw up "unable to disinfect" calls to the helpdesk. THAT is what OUR customers always wanted and got. Install it and worry about OTHER things.

That functionality needs to remain, but we've gotten better at other things over the versions such as repairing damaged LSP stacks, cleaning key registry entries, and dealing with "rootkits." But things are about to head in a TRULY ugly direction if what we've seen of IE7 is actually distributed. And despite our successes in using undocumented tricks to be able to access the kernel from user level, I fear that ending if "VISTA" (which rhymes with "blista") is actually what they're going to ship. If so, we'se in DEEP poo. We're PLANNING on it. Simply put, if "XP" caused "Xtra Pain," then what we've seen of "VISTA" can only make OSAMA proud. Bad stuff runs, good stuff doesn't. And 64 bits ain't necessarily 64 bits. :(

ANY "evil vendor" who isn't already ahead of this curve will suffer the wrath of hundreds, thousands or whatever they sold. And folks won't accept "hey I"m too busy to fix that right now" ... I mean, look at all of the hoohah about "Process Guard and BOClean are eating my CPU" ... it never WAS BOClean or ProcessGuard, it was cheesy antivirus programs hogging the system and not liking having any "companionship" by their design and failing to play nicely in the sandbox. DCS and US took it in the ear for a few OTHER bad apples doing stupid things. :(

"INTERESTING times ahead, KEEP RIGHT" ... Some of us are poised to deal with it, others? Well ... :)

[Starrob]

Ok....glad you explained because you almost sounded like you wanted to jump off a bridge in your first post.....or maybe even possibly go to work at Wal-Mart's.

In any case, intentions aside (For it is likely DCS "intended" to truly release TDS-4). I think all AT software companies would be well to closely observe the changing landscape of the AT industry and not get too much tunnel-vision in the lab.

I think Andy Grove spelled this out in a way for all businesses in the book, "Only the Paranoid Survive". Here is a quote from Amazon.com:

"Amazon.com
Massive change is hitting corporate America at a furious and escalating pace, writes Andrew Grove in Only the Paranoid Survive, and businesses that strive hard to keep abreast of the transition will be the only ones that prevail. And Grove should know. As chief executive of Intel, he wrestled with one of the business world's great challenges in 1994 when a flaw in his company's new cornerstone product -- the Pentium processor -- grew into a front-page controversy that seriously threatened its future."

I think this industry might possibly be making a shift and I hope the people that are called "the Good Guys" on this board will keep close tabs on the shifts, so that customers won't have to endure broken promises.

I hope that TDS-3 going away shows developers that it is better to under-promise and over-deliver rather than the opposite. In the future, I ask all security software devlopers to be more careful with what is promised. I know sometimes the developers might get caught up in the hype of their own "babies" but I am hoping that business sense will prevail in future situations.

I think more than a few people consider themselves hurt by the broken-promise of TDS-4, whether intentional or not.




Starrob
-{ Quote: "Whoops! Sounds like I've made people nervous when it wasn't at all my intent. Certainly I'm comiserating with Wayne, and trying to explain from THIS side of the "reality" why I don't blame him a bit and how I wish *I* could find something more peaceful to do. And in fact, we did come pretty close to going under nearly a year ago owing to very slow sales, and like everyone else in this (including Wayne) I am persistently amused by the assumptions (particularly on DSLR) that we "evil vendors" are getting fabulously rich doing this. Heh. We'd gone from 15 people in 1998 down to four this year while the workload ramped up past "insanity" all the way to "I wanna slit my wrists." Fortunately we all managed to work very hard putting in very long hours and we survived. And as I said, the reality isn't the upfront costs for this kind of software, it's the MAINTAINING and lab work. That's what Wayne also realized. MOST software, you write the code, make sure it's good, SHIP it, get paid and move on to the NEXT project.

But in our case, because things finally turned around for us, we've been hiring lately and have been very fortunate to find some very good analysts which are now just about fully trained and ready to relieve me of "lab duty," "hunting and gathering," and the email. All of this the result of some major government and corporate sales which will fund us for the next four years at least on the BOClean side of the house, even if we don't have one single sale to individuals. That in turn frees me up to go back to work on coding new versions of our "flagship" NSClean and IEClean software as well as some other things which have fallen by the wayside in the madness of the malware explosion of this past year. CODING is what I always liked doing best, and sitting in a lab blowing up machines and figuring out "how do we stop this?" had gotten to be extreme drudgery. I *know* this has also gotten to Wayne and Gavin as surely as it's gotten to me. You can't develop if you're tied up doing the mundane INSTEAD of what you do best. And you can't keep people happy if you don't have time to properly respond to emails when one of your support people doesn't know the answer to a really strange question. Wearing too many hats isn't conducive to continued sanity.

As to my comments about individuals, yes, some can be "high maintenance" type people but then some of the MCSE's I've dealt with have been dumber than a box of bowling balls. "Normal" people usually appreciate a good answer whereas "so-called experts" want to argue the most mundane and arcane parts of theories that in the greater scheme of things, really don't matter at all in the "real world." We see that here and on other sites as well. You know what I mean, the "What if Sparticus had a Piper Cub?" kinda things. :)

But yes, we intend to be here PAST another four years, that is assured with many new long term contracts - the major advantage is that this old burned out coder is going to be passing the drudge work to new people here. And more importantly, they're funding the research for their own needs that are already providing improved code for the next versions of BOClean and many entirely new directions for it.

About the only thing likely to change is the licensing for the individual versions of BOClean for "home use" but no plans are currently in the works to do that now. And anyone who's read their license.txt file knows that we've made promises, and we KEEP those. That license may change in the future along with the pricing for NEW customers at a later time, but nothing's changing now or for the foreseeable future. Bottom line is we're more stable now than we've been in years.

But we've seen some REAL challenges, especially this year. Man, I miss the days when 7 trojans a MONTH was a rough week. :)" }-

[worldcitizen]

I personally believe there's been dishonesty here by DCS. Why?

For one, it seems that this program 'that's just around the corner' must have been worked on for some time now in order to be 'just around the corner' all the while us being led to believe that they were urgently working on TDS 4!!! If that's not misleading and deceiving then what is?

If they had no time because TDS 4 was being worked on then how come this new program is almost ready?

I for one don't trust DCS anymore because they seem to be saying one thing (TDS 4 being worked on) and doing another (making another program instead).

It could also be a marketing ploy. What might be going on is that this new program was actually TDS 4 but a few 'changes' have been made to it to make it look and feel like a new program so that the promised ' free upgrade' would not have to be delivered and in it's place a clone TDS 4 with a different name but that has to be 'purchased' will be released instead thus bringing in income whereas a TDS 4 upgrade given away for free would not have made any profit. I believe DCS are deliberately reneging on their free upgrade offer and want to get out of that policy pronto.

I think their accountant has told them that offering free upgrades is not financially viable and they want to turn this around so TDS 4 was first and other programs will most certainly follow. I believe they'll eventually or as soon as possible scrap the free upgrade policy on all programs because it is costing them too much in lost income.

In order to kill the free upgrade policy they'll have to change other programs so much that they become 'new programs' and thus must be purchased again.

I think that you'll see this policy eventually phased out and that the new programs might offer a year of free upgrades instead. Wormguard 4 might be free but the version after might change over to yearly upgrades and so on.

I can live with that because every software business now charges for 'renewals' for yearly upgrades but the TDS 4 saga was handled wrongly because we were promised again and again and left waiting for years only to be told now it's not coming but to be sure to look out for their new products 'just around the corner' - products we must of course buy, forfeiting our 'free upgrade'.

Unlike some others, I have bought all of DCS products but have never ever had a 'free upgrade' of anything. As far as I'm concerned it's just a market strategy to get people to buy but in fact in 2 and a half years I've yet to receive my first so called 'free upgrade'.

Dave

[worldcitizen]

One of the reasons I bought TDS 3 was the free upgrades and now I have lost both and offered programs I already have!! I'm furious!!!

Dave

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "Ok....glad you explained because you almost sounded like you wanted to jump off a bridge in your first post.....or maybe even possibly go to work at Wal-Mart's.

In any case, intentions aside (For it is likely DCS "intended" to truly release TDS-4). I think all AT software companies would be well to closely observe the changing landscape of the AT industry and not get too much tunnel-vision in the lab.

I think Andy Grove spelled this out in a way for all businesses in the book, "Only the Paranoid Survive". Here is a quote from Amazon.com:
(snip) ...
Starrob" }-

PRECISELY the reason why I've been compelled to say all the things I've said here in the first place - not to toot OUR horn, but rather to explain WHY Wayne's decision was so WISE. And WHY it will result in MUCH better things out of DCS now unburdened by an "albatross" ... with our CORPORATE licensees, there's a discount for hundreds or thousands of BOCleans, and why we do CUSTOM builds of it for specifics, FOR A CHARGE.

The "institutional" license for BOClean expires after 3 years. At such time, they have to buy it again at half price for another 3 years. But these "large" sales provide "economy of scale" as part of the difference in the price has to do with WHO supports the "end user." If, for 3,000 sales, we make as much as we do for 300 "individuals" we have that 300:1 ratio on the "dumb questions" side. It's up to THEIR helpdesk to answer, "I got A "BETTERNET16" detected. What does this mean?" and their IT department will promise to come and take away their computer if they don't accept the "Is it gone? Don't call this number again" solution. If *WE* did that with a panicky individual, we'd be slammed all over the groups for being 'arrogant.'" Perfectly OK for the glass house geeks though - they KNOW where you surfed on copmpany time, you will NOT challenge them. :)

That's what I meant about the "costs" (above and beyond what we get paid for) of supporting individuals, answering dumb questions as politely and amusingly as possible, and our lowest priority owing to time constraints, "hitting the groups" ... taking care of the corporates is CHEAP! To add to the fun though, a few "discounters" got "corporate licenses" and have resold to INDIVIDUALS at a discount. If any one thing has hurt us more, it's all those people who got BOClean for cheap, we don't get notified that they got a copy for two months or more and they're mad at US because nobody told us they bought a copy or paid us for it.

Wonder why I have fantasies of "selling paint and going home at 5PM like 'normal folk?'" :)

[spy1]

Frankly, I consider what DCS has done in this situation to be nothing less than a total disaster as far as their reputation goes.

They promised the new TDS-4 program for years - free to their exisiting TDS-3 customers.

They lied.

The excuse about having to tie up so much research time and band-width in updates doesn't fly - as Jooske pointed out, all those expenses could have been covered by charging an annual fee for updates to pay both for bandwidth and extra personnel. I'd go so far as to say that everyone both expected and would have been quite content with that scenario.

The ones who really got screwed over were the ones who bought TDS-3 either recently or only after being assured that they'd get a free update to TDS-4 when it came out. I and a lot of others promoted the purchase of TDS-3 to a lot of other people - based partly on that guarantee - and I'd like to take this opportunity to sincerely apologize to everyone who followed my advice. I was wrong and I'm sorry.

The "sop" offer of a license for either PG or Port Explorer is an even greater insult to those of us who've already purchased those programs (either as an "Action Pack" or separately).

You offer us nothing in return for either our brand loyalty/patronage or our un-flagging promotion of TDS over the years.

Thank you.

We'll remember that.

And best of luck to you in the future when you're trying to get new customers to trust either the DCS organization, your word or your "new" (whatever-it-is) product. Pete

[Don Pelotas]

-{ Quote: "Don,

I cannot speak for others, but I did try to emphasize as I always do, buy for what the program is today, not what is promised tomorrow. If one did that, purchased TDS3 for TDS3, one received a top flight application which performed well in its lifetime with the understanding one would not have to pay an additional sum to upgrade in the future. That last proviso is now moot. However, based on what was known at the time, it was decent advice, and the same advice that I'd offer to anyone else today.

With respect to the future programs, DCS does offer, and I assume will continue to offer, standing discounts to existing customers based on the number of programs owned.

Blue" }-
Hi Blue & Joske

First i would like to make clear that i was not in any way trying attack Joske, she just happened to be the one using the word "misleading", and i therefore brought up what seems to me to be a valid point, nothing more nothing less, as i said i'm actually a satisfied costumer of Process Guard so this is not about me trying to stir things, i just saw something that i disagreed with and spoke my mind with no malicious intent.
-{ Quote: "As for the recent purchasers, that's only an issue DCS can handle. There's a whole collection of issues here including whether they already own the offered alternate programs, how long they've been an owner and so on. It is probably best pursued off-line on a case-by-case business." }-
I agree, i just wish they had offered a plan for everybody, instead of case by case. One thing that would i think sweetened this would have been a scenario where those who purchased within say the last 6-12 months get a license to this new anti malware program (any info this btw) for free, and the rest 20-50% discount. Well just my 2 cents, nothing more nothing. :)

[Starrob]

One thing that I think has a high probability of happening is that many that call themselves AT companies today might not be around beyond 4 years. I have a feeling maybe only 2 or three might survive in some form.

I pick BoClean as one of those that will be around in some form (Not necesarrily producing a AT). I will let others speculate on the others that might be around.

My favorite theory at this point is that there will be Anti-malware scanners, companies the build IDS/Generic detection/pro-active detection and those that build specialized security related products.



Starrob

[Rainwalker]

-{ Quote: "Now I`m not saying that`s what they did, I`m saying that`s what I`d do. :)" }-

Hmmmmm.........now there's a thought..........indeed :)

[Don Pelotas]

-{ Quote: "*IF* you happen to be referring to what we're doing as far as OUR "future" that's already been in the works for about a month now, despite the mayhem on our end. If you're referring to TDS, I apologise for interjecting then ..." }-
I was speaking about this new DCS product, sorry for not being clear on that. It was just an attempt at being funny, i usually fail miserably when doing that ;), but as an BOClean costumer i thank you for the heads up on future products, and yes, i wil be buying that too as i'm thoroughly pleased with BOClean, i dont really need a scanner, but like to support companies that among others you & your company belongs to in my book, but the proactive stuff sounds very interesting. :)

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "
I agree, i just wish they had offered a plan for everybody, instead of case by case. One thing that would i think sweetened this would have been a scenario where those who purchased within say the last 6-12 months get a license to this new anti malware program (any info this btw) for free, and the rest 20-50% discount. Well just my 2 cents, nothing more nothing. :)" }-

Very good plan Don. Makes lots of sense to me, from many different perspectives.

One thing about running a small company, is that it is really tough making good business decisions all of the time. I've learned to give people some slack. It's good for the soul. :)

I hope DiamondCS accepts these type of constructive ideas, and reconsiders its initial plan. Every company, large and small, has these type of issues in their history. For example, frequently, airlines will announce a price increase only to roll it back after getting feedback from customers. Reconsideration is always appropriate when other ideas are put forward which make sense.

Cya,
Rich

[Starrob]

Yes....by the way....if BoClean is really developing some sort of pro-active protection, I would be interested in looking at it. Looks like the battle might shift from who has the best AT to who has the best Behavioral defense.

Maybe a year from now people will forget about all this AT scanner stuff and will be debating who has the best behavioral modification. Will it be a2 or Boclean or DCS new product. Let's starting the Ego butting debate now!!! LOL



Starrob




-{ Quote: "I was speaking about this new DCS product, sorry for not being clear on that. It was just an attempt at being funny, i usually fail miserably when doing that ;), but as an BOClean costumer i thank you for the heads up on future products, and yes, i wil be buying that too as i'm thoroughly pleased with BOClean, i dont really need a scanner, but like to support companies that among others you & your company belongs to in my book, but the proactive stuff sounds very interesting. :)" }-

[controler]

I also purchased the action pac. plus PG

I will wait for their e-mail about those of us that allready have all their software before I say too much. I also only bought it because of the
TDS-4 promise.

I will say this though. As far as I am concerned, The ONLY thing that saved DCS & is saving them now
WAS their release of PG.

controler

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: "I agree, i just wish they had offered a plan for everybody, instead of case by case. One thing that would i think sweetened this would have been a scenario where those who purchased within say the last 6-12 months get a license to this new anti malware program (any info this btw) for free, and the rest 20-50% discount. Well just my 2 cents, nothing more nothing. :)" }-
New DCS anti malware program?

The main issue now is: how to trust an company when they are announcing another new exciting project, when they don't keep their promises other projects concerning?

And when the new anti malware program is on the market, can or must we believe that program have a future and not an exit like TDS?

I'm an loyal DCS customer, year after year.

Now I think in an total other direction.

IMO DCS was a reliable company, but after the TDS melt-down I have other thoughts.


Spy1 wrote: "Frankly, I consider what DCS has done in this situation to be nothing less than a total disaster as far as their reputation goes.

They promised the new TDS-4 program for years - free to their exisiting TDS-3 customers.

They lied."

He is right.


Don Pelotas wrote: "How can you say that there was no misleading people? TDS-4 whatever the excuses now, has been promissed for many months (years in fact), when ever a question about it's availability was asked by a prospective buyer/user, the answer was always, just buy TDS-3 the upgrade to TDS-4 is free, there's no need to wait!! If thats not misleading the users, then i don't know what is?"

He is right too.

[worldcitizen]

-{ Quote: "The "sop" offer of a license for either PG or Port Explorer is an even greater insult to those of us who've already purchased those programs (either as an "Action Pack" or separately).

You offer us nothing in return for either our brand loyalty/patronage or our un-flagging promotion of TDS over the years.

Thank you.

We'll remember that.

And best of luck to you in the future when you're trying to get new customers to trust either the DCS organization, your word or your "new" (whatever-it-is) product. Pete" }-

I second that 100%. Couldn't have been better put Pete! One other very important thing to remember - how is it that this 'new program' is 'almost ready'????? Weren't they telling us they were working exclusively on TDS 4???

Not only lies but DCS have been caught with their pants down. Now I have nothing. No TDS 3 and no replacement as I have bought ALL their products.

Jooske, I know you must be very upset but how many times did you and all moderators and DCS tell us to be 'patient'. And we were patient. What for?? To become saints? In the end we got nothing at all for all this 'patience', in return for our loyalty, understanding and patience.

Matter of fact we lose TDS 3 and our free upgrade especially for those who have never ever had a free upgrade and now get told to be ready to buy new programs!! And you are asking us again to be patient? We have already been tremendously let down and should not have to be put through all this nonsense. This is very unprofessional behaviour by DCS towards those who have stuck by them through thick and thin and been extremely patient. Now is not the time for patience but for some justice and fairness.

I am a disabled pensioner and a free upgrade was very important to me. Now I'm told I lose it AND TDS 3 and am left in the lurch.

Dave

[controler]

These type decisions are not made overnight for whatever reason.

This could very well turn out to be a pandores box. something like a can a worms.

Kevin has now stated how things have changed since offering lifetime updates.
Some things are unforseen as this latest development.
I am sure now that all new programs will charge for updates.

I don't know what the law says about all this and really don't care.

Kevin say the single users are not his priority or bread & butter?

Kinda freaks me out that he is producing "custom built" software for foreign
governments.

Now we single users need to make a decision as to weather we want to keep
BoClean & volunteer to pay yearly subscription fees or ?

The more I look at this thread the more peed I am becomming >:(

Why is there still a BUY NOW link on the DCS website?

controler

[JohnS]

Sorry to hear this.
What are you going to do about us who have paid $50 in advance for TDS-4?
And I already paid for and own ProcessGuard & Port Explorer.
Thanks!

[worldcitizen]

If they come out with some sort of 'malware guard' you can bet it was TDS 4 Guard but with the name changed so as to avoid giving out the 'free upgrades'. There's something very foul here.

Dave

[worldcitizen]

It looks to me like the TDS 4 Scanner was dropped and the Guard is ready but they do not want to honour the upgrade policy so they might just have changed it's name to avoid honouring the policy.

As it stands now we might be expected to buy what really is TDS 4 Guard under another alias otherwise why have they been telling us they were exclusively working on TDS 4 when they were really making 'something else'? Maybe the Guard is that 'something else' but will be renamed in order to avoid honouring the free upgrade offer. I bet this new program does exactly what TDS 4 Guard was supposed to do.

Dave

[richrf]

Hi worldcitizen,

My guess is that DiamondCS will present a more comprehensive package, that will address all of the above mentioned issues, for all users, before any new product is release. Sometimes things just take time to resolve themselves.

What I hope is that any final plan (Don's was very well thought out), is healthy for the company (because DiamondCS does create good products - and dead companies can't produce anything any more), and fair/equitable to its customer base. Healthy companies and healthy customer bases are important to everyone. I think it was Lincoln who said, "A house divided cannot stand". :-) Makes sense.

Rich

[Bubba]

quote reposted as a reminder and respectful request:-{ Quote: "How about we keep some level of rational discussion within this thread? Unsupportable , gratuitous, and idle speculation is really not helpful at all." }-Frustration due to this action by DCS is understandable....even if I don't own or use their software....but let's Please keep the "TDS 4 Guard but with the name changed so as to avoid giving out the 'free upgrades'" speculations for the Enquirer type articles.

Also....as most know....the weekend is an off time for DCS. Perhaps the upcoming week will have given DCS ample time to have heard from their customers via this thread....and the other threads spread out across other Security Forums on the net.

[steverio]

As an owner of all of DCS products I am waiting to see what unfolds at this moment. I hope this decision of theirs and the comments being made here in detail will bring forth some re-thinking.

It would be most unfortunate for someone's reputation to be mucked up over one misstep by overshadowing all the good they have done. DCS has the opportunity to define themselves further , if they wish.

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "As an owner of all of DCS products I am waiting to see what unfolds at this moment. I hope this decision of theirs and the comments being made here in detail will bring forth some re-thinking.

It would be most unfortunate for someone's reputation to be mucked up over one misstep by overshadowing all the good they have done. DCS has the opportunity to define themselves further , if they wish." }-

Hi Steve,

Yes, I totally agree. Between TDS-3 (a pioneering effort for its time), ProcessGuard (also a pioneering effort), WormGuard, Port Explorer, etc. DiamondCS has provided lots of excellent security products to its customer base and to the general population (any product that helps stop the spread of malware, helps the entire population).

This company deserves to continue on a healthy footing - and customers deserve to be treated fairly. I am confident that both will happen.

Cya,
Rich

[Edwin024]

DCS have quite something to repair in the near or further future. I'm happy that I chose to go for Ewido and Counterspy to do the trick....

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: "Also....as most know....the weekend is an off time for DCS. Perhaps the upcoming week will have given DCS ample time to have heard from their customers via this thread....and the other threads spread out across other Security Forums on the net." }-
Bubba,

When Wayne tells us on a friday the TDS software line is discontinued, he knows very, very well a lot of people are very disappointed about that decision, and are also disappointed in DCS.

Therefore this weekend should not be off time for DCS, he must answer all the questions and remarks in this Official DiamondCS Public Forum, and answer all the emails DCS received about his decision, weekend or not.

He can not say: "I don't work the weekends", that's rubbish, in that case he better placed his annoucement on a monday.

But Wayne let us down for the second time: first with the TDS melt-down, and second with our frustrations this weekend.

[Lou_Dinunzio]

-{ Quote: "As an owner of all of DCS products I am waiting to see what unfolds at this moment. I hope this decision of theirs and the comments being made here in detail will bring forth some re-thinking.

It would be most unfortunate for someone's reputation to be mucked up over one misstep by overshadowing all the good they have done. DCS has the opportunity to define themselves further , if they wish." }-

Well said steverio.

Over the years we all spend thousands or $$$ on computers, hardware,software,IP fees,etc. etc. etc. There is no end. When was the last time you made a major purchase and got a lemon? Why bitch about a lousy $40? Get on with life.

My best to Wayne and crew in whatever they do.

On a serious note. Does anyone know what dlls TDS-3 installed that I can delete?

Thank You

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "I wouldn't say "huge" in terms of our paid commitments to several governments (curiously not our *OWN*, they believe in SYMANTEC) and some major corporations ... but ADEQUATE. Enough for us to hire up a few more very talented people in several locations across the globe (curiously ALSO, only one or two here in the states) and that makes the difference. We can remain solvent and maintain the job, but then we've always operated on a shoestring and treat our people very well.

<snip>
" }-

Sad thing here Kevin is both you and Wayne are models of customer service for the little guy. I've personally experienced the yellow box. I do hope you can hang in there, cause I know you are good for the market place. I know Wayne and DCS have some neat stuff in store for the market. THe comments above re just repackaging TDS to get out from under commitments, is from folks who just can't believe there are some good guys around. We know better.

Pete

[Notok]

I can completely sympathize, WC, but think we should probably wait to see the new product before making any determination or speculation. I bought TDS3 for TDS4, too, because I wanted to support DCS. I also bought all the other stuff for the same reason.. I wanted to support them as much as possible. Without their upgrade policy, I probably would have just bought PG, everything else I've got covered by other apps, and not making very much money I don't spend that amount lightly.. not to mention the fact that I ran into a lot of bugs w/ TDS3 that kept it from really being effective on my machine.

Looking back I remember Wayne saying that there would be some kind of deal, and that if we weren't happy with the deal we could email him and be made happy.. I hope this is what he was referring to...

Never the less, I really wish we could have had some warning before ending the TDS-3 updates.

http://www.dyingsun.net/angry-keys.gif
;D

I should note that I do respect the decision, I can understand the why, just not the how. Good luck on future endeavors.

[tutankamon]

Hi Wayne, tut here, can you advise me on what program I can use to replace TDS3, because I`m running on windows M.E. I can`t use Process Guard. I would welcome your suggestion. ( incidently, do you have "something up your sleeve" as has been suggested?) best of luck in your new endevours.

[EWT]

DiamondCS Management:

Hello and thank you for the update and info on TDS-3/4. I am a relatively new customer of DiamondCS. In February 2005, I purchased Port Explorer, ProcessGuard, TDS-3 and WormGuard.

My first purchase was TDS-3, but before I purchased it I realized that it was a very old and somewhat outdated program. However, what convinced me to go ahead and buy the product was the "Free" upgrade to TDS-4. From what I was reading in the forums, TDS-4 was going to be phenominal. After installation of TDS-3, I did not find it to be very useful for my own particular needs (and I am not saying it isn't useful to others).

I appreciate that management has offered one of the other product lines to its customers in light of their recent decision to shelve the TDS product line, however, I already own all the other DiamondCS products.

I think most of us have been quite patient with DiamondCS waiting for the release of TDS-4. I am willing to continue with patience, but I feel that your offer to me and perhaps other new customers like me who were counting on the release of TDS-4 as the primary influence to buy TDS-3, should be given the choice to receive the new product (whatever it is) free of charge.

Please give me fair consideration. Afterall, what better customer could you ask for who has purchased all the DiamondCS products, and I paid full prices (not discounted deals), yeah I was a little stupid for doing that..

Thank you in advance.

[Antarctica]

-{ Quote: "Bubba,

When Wayne tells us on a friday the TDS software line is discontinued, he knows very, very well a lot of people are very disappointed about that decision, and are also disappointed in DCS.

Therefore this weekend should not be off time for DCS, he must answer all the questions and remarks in this Official DiamondCS Public Forum, and answer all the emails DCS received about his decision, weekend or not.

He can not say: "I don't work the weekends", that's rubbish, in that case he better placed his annoucement on a monday.

But Wayne let us down for the second time: first with the TDS melt-down, and second with our frustrations this weekend." }-

Absolutly agree with that.

I just wrote a letter to DCS customer support and I hope that every new customer like me ( I also own PG, Wormguard and Port Explorer) should do the same to complain about their unfair offer. >:(

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "I just wrote a letter to DCS customer support and I hope that every new customer like me ( I also own PG, Wormguard and Port Explorer) should do the same to complain about their unfair offer. >:(" }-

Ouch! That is going to be a pretty full mailbox tomorrow. :o

I guess this is one time where a "proactive" policy would have saved a lot of resource intensive "scanning" (of email). ;)

Rich

[CrownKing82]

-{ Quote: "Absolutly agree with that.

I just wrote a letter to DCS customer support and I hope that every new customer like me ( I also own PG, Wormguard and Port Explorer) should do the same to complain about their unfair offer. >:(" }-

I wrote them too. I am not a new customer, and like many, I have purchased all of their products

If you look at their site and what has gone on for almost three years... That and the fact that they kept selling right up until they pulled the plug... It doesn't take an MBA in marketing to see that hard cold truth. With that said I was one of the people who fell for their scam almost two years ago.

It doesn't take three years to develop a new release on an existing software package... It was smoke and mirrors nothing more... nothing less. They keep the site up offering the free upgrade even after the announcement. This was not a spur of the moment decision. The free upgrade BS should have been pulled long ago. They knew where is was heading. Keeping the site up to the last minute was by design, not accident. An act of commision, not ommision. These guys had been in business way too long and were too sophisticated in web merchandising to make a mistake like that. It was intentional... anyone who thinks otherwise... well, i got a sweet deal for them on a bridge in Brooklyn...

In compensation, they offered free software package that most people had already... how generous... If they wanted to do the right thing offer refunds as an option to those who purchased TDS in the last 120 days... After all they stop providing detection updates too.

They did this without any forewarning... Not exactly an ethical business move. I think on a global basis, given this stunt, their credibility has gone to zero with most, except the die-hards who don't want to see the breach of business ethics committed by this move. They rear ended a lot of people who made recent purchases and didn't offer a refund as an option. That says it all.

TDS-4 was vaporware for some time. How do I know... I know because of what they did, and how they did it. Anyone who chooses to not see that hard reality is looking at it with miguided cunstomer loyalty. What they, DCS, did it the past has been totally negated by this latest move. They showed where they are in the ethics department and that is where it counts. If you can't deal with your customers ethically.

There are many people here who defend DiamnodCS's actions and say we should give them a chance to respond. It is after all the weekend. Indeed it is the weekend. They chose Friday to make the annoucment to avoid dealing with the heat... A well know business practice to avoid having to step up to the plate with your customer/politcal base... Hope it blows over during the weekend.

Wait for what they have to say... Why? They already said it. I for one will never trust them again. As I alluded to above; If they were in the right place they would have given notice, and continued to support TDS-3 for a reasonable period of time. It was the same a quiting a job cold on a Friday afternoon. Just walking out for no good reason and giving no notice... Monday moring comes and those who were counting on you to be there are left with zip... nada...

BK

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "One thing that I think has a high probability of happening is that many that call themselves AT companies today might not be around beyond 4 years. I have a feeling maybe only 2 or three might survive in some form.

I pick BoClean as one of those that will be around in some form (Not necesarrily producing a AT). I will let others speculate on the others that might be around.

My favorite theory at this point is that there will be Anti-malware scanners, companies the build IDS/Generic detection/pro-active detection and those that build specialized security related products.
Starrob" }-

I'd say you will NOT have to wait that long. As someone who's been doing anti-trojans for nine years now (SAME time as Wayne) I don't think ANY of the others will be around in one MORE year, the way things are going. USing DELPHI as your codebase kinda got blown up over a year ago, not that anybody has noticed. Those who have been OUR customers are at least fortunate enough in knowing that OTHER people are paying the bills, those whose INTEREST in our survival is a LONG TERM item to them at least, and they've put money up FRONT to ensure that we DO so. But the scope of what "AT's" need to do have been shifting sands for several years now. Only reason why we don't have to do VERSION upgrades every other week is that BOClean has an ENGINE, and it has separate UPDATES of behavior patterns. The "engine" design has remained sufficiently flexible and open to the "scripting" that the database provides that the past four version updates were simply the result of surprises as to the sheer NUMBER of nasties to be covered and needing to increase that number internally, and it's always been our practice to limit memory consumption to certain "caps" unless there was a NEED to hog more of it.

But JUST as "file scanning" in 1996 was obsolete then, MEMORY scannng as WE do it is ALSO an item whose time is running out. I hate to consider "security through obscurity" as a cure, but it is the LACK of BOClean being out there as a "freebie" along with our design of "random" based on a SPECIFIC MACHINE SIGNATURE which has further frustrated those who would try to stop us. "Obscurity" plus "obfuscation" makes it MIGHT difficult so far to defeat what we do ... but like ANY code, has to constantly "improve" or SOMEBODY will catch on. Just SMELL the desperation in ZA6, condemned to do really dumb things and fail to detect what's REAL and what's not. BOCLEAN is a trojan as far as ZA6 goes! We've got a KEYLOGGER, or so they false-detect! Hahahahaha.

Yeah, I'd say MANY shakeups down the road, coming SOON. We, however, plan NOT to be one of them.

[Frank J.]

The question: How long will TDS-3 be supported???

How come it has not been answered??

Unfortunately, I think the answer is that support is already over. Gone. Bye bye.

If the Crocodile Hunter was there, this would not have happened.

[Caratacus]

I own all DiamondCS products. A free PG or PE is no use to me. So the people who have supported DCS the most have the least compensation, or no compensation, for what is clearly and incontrovertibly a breach of faith.

[Jaws]

It amazes me that since TDS is no more, that anyone and everyone is talking and speculating about the AT industry.

Where was everyone when I started the thread, “AT vs AV” in the other anti-trojan software forum. As you know, nothing in the computer industry stands still, it's always in a state of flux. I was just trying to wake people up to the fact that a lot of AT vendors are not going to make it and they should make changes. And I was taken to task by the posters in my thread by trying to refute me. But nobody else wanted to really discuss it and in fact wanted that thread to die.

It's kind of sad about TDS especially for the people that recently bought it. In my mind, it's hard to believe Wayne woke up Friday and all of a sudden decided we're going to discontinue TDS. I truly believe they knew this would happen for awhile. But they continued to list it for purchase right to the very end. A statement several months ago that TDS would only be adding definitions for the next few months would have gone over much better then the way they handled it.

As everyone knows, with technology, no matter if you're talking about computers or automobiles, there's going to be winners and losers. Just look at all the car manufacturers that went out of business. You need a good business model and a lot of costumers to make money. I'd be watching out for TH since they're in kind of the same boat that TDS was in, and in a few years who knows, maybe BOClean too if some changes aren't made, not to mention quite a few AV vendors too. I know I'll probably get hammered by Kevin, but who really knows what the future holds.

Jaws

[Magnus Mischel]

-{ Quote: "I'd be watching out for TH since they're in kind of the same boat that TDS was in
Jaws" }-

First of all, I'd like to thank Wayne for the healthy competition over the years. We may not always have been the best of friends, but I'm sure Wayne would agree that we spurred each other to do better. No hard feelings Wayne, and I wish you the best of luck in the future.

As for the speculation about TrojanHunter - well there is no need for any TrojanHunter user to be worried. The company is profitable, thank you very much, and I in fact plan to hire two more people this fall. TrojanHunter is here to stay. Just wanted to get that out of the way as there have been worried emails inquiring about TrojanHunter.

[Don Pelotas]

-{ Quote: "The question: How long will TDS-3 be supported???

How come it has not been answered??" }-
That was in fact answerred in the announcement, first line "TDS software line is to be discontinued, effective immediately.". :)

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: "As for the speculation about TrojanHunter - well there is no need for any TrojanHunter user to be worried. The company is profitable, thank you very much, and I in fact plan to hire two more people this fall. TrojanHunter is here to stay. Just wanted to get that out of the way as there have been worried emails inquiring about TrojanHunter." }-
Magnus,

Thanks for your quick response!:)

[Starrob]

It is not just the AT's that are under fire but also the AS, the firewalls and even the AV's. I personally have the feeling that really major players are viewing the security industry with interest.

I just have a small feeling that a major player such as Google or IAC is one day going to come in and steamroll the mom and pops just like a Walmart's. The Walmart's of the industry might even bankrupt a few of the K-marts (Symantec or McAfee).

Just as Walmarts has not completely eliminated ALL competition....neither will the big boys come and eliminate every single mom and pop or every single K-mart type company.

There will be survivors BUT the survivors are only going to be the ones that have some marketable advantage. The advantage can be either technological or by the way it is marketed or who the product is marketed to or even something as mundane as reputation.

BoClean's advantage is who they carved out for their market (Government and corporation's). If they concentrate on just satisfying their bread and butter they will be around.

As for other players....well, I just don't know. I think a new factor will have to play into purchasing decisions on software.....Does the company have some marketable advantage to insure that it will even survive?

I am still looking all over these boards and seeing the "Who is number one?" threads all over. From my point of view these threads don't matter because there may even be some number one's that are going to get knocked out the box as the security industry changes.

Survivability of the company might even be a bigger factor then who is number one.

I have a few guesses of companies that might possibly make it. I think one or two of the companies might make it because they have extremely bright people that know the business end as well as the coding BUT right now the surest bet of a survivor is BoClean.

All the rest of you developers...well, you are going to have to come up with a decidive advantage that can keep you in the market place and you might have to do it soon.

Witness TDS-3...."Number 1 AT"....knocked out the box!!!

Sincerely,




Starrob


-{ Quote: "I'd say you will NOT have to wait that long. As someone who's been doing anti-trojans for nine years now (SAME time as Wayne) I don't think ANY of the others will be around in one MORE year, the way things are going. USing DELPHI as your codebase kinda got blown up over a year ago, not that anybody has noticed. Those who have been OUR customers are at least fortunate enough in knowing that OTHER people are paying the bills, those whose INTEREST in our survival is a LONG TERM item to them at least, and they've put money up FRONT to ensure that we DO so. But the scope of what "AT's" need to do have been shifting sands for several years now. Only reason why we don't have to do VERSION upgrades every other week is that BOClean has an ENGINE, and it has separate UPDATES of behavior patterns. The "engine" design has remained sufficiently flexible and open to the "scripting" that the database provides that the past four version updates were simply the result of surprises as to the sheer NUMBER of nasties to be covered and needing to increase that number internally, and it's always been our practice to limit memory consumption to certain "caps" unless there was a NEED to hog more of it.

But JUST as "file scanning" in 1996 was obsolete then, MEMORY scannng as WE do it is ALSO an item whose time is running out. I hate to consider "security through obscurity" as a cure, but it is the LACK of BOClean being out there as a "freebie" along with our design of "random" based on a SPECIFIC MACHINE SIGNATURE which has further frustrated those who would try to stop us. "Obscurity" plus "obfuscation" makes it MIGHT difficult so far to defeat what we do ... but like ANY code, has to constantly "improve" or SOMEBODY will catch on. Just SMELL the desperation in ZA6, condemned to do really dumb things and fail to detect what's REAL and what's not. BOCLEAN is a trojan as far as ZA6 goes! We've got a KEYLOGGER, or so they false-detect! Hahahahaha.

Yeah, I'd say MANY shakeups down the road, coming SOON. We, however, plan NOT to be one of them." }-

[Jaws]

Hi Magnus,

Sorry about my speculation and I'm glad you are doing well with your product. I know people that use TH and they have high praise for it.

If you read my AT vs AV thread, you would know I am on the side of the AT vendors and I've wished them well. But I also felt that they are getting squeezed by the AV vendors and suite providers.

To me, the discontinuation of TDS should probably not come as that much of a surprise.

All the best to you,
Jaws

[Notok]

It seems to me that covering spyware gives BOClean an advantage. Spruce up the UI, give it a new name (sorry, but I have a couple people I've tried to get to use BOClean, but won't because they can't take it seriously just because of the name & look) and market it as an advanced/industrial strength cleaner that does what the others cannot, cleaning out the important stuff with a minimum of resource usage. I'm sure some of this is coming, and when it does I think it will make a positive difference since the ATs have a decisive advantage over plain spyware scanners. CounterSpy, SpySweeper, etc., all seem to be doing pretty well for themselves, offering something that picks up after even those would, I'm sure, raise some eyebrows by some that don't even know about the ATs.

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "Magnus,

Thanks for your quick response!:)" }-

No ... I'm going to wait for WAYNE on this one ... but MAGNUS is one of the REASONS why it ain't worth doing TDS anymore. Him, and his buddy Andreas (A2) creating absolutely unreasonable expectations with "WE WILL NEVER do SUBSCRIPTIONS" ... and when the roosters returned, he raised his PRICES.

I'll remain silent until WAYNE has the opportunity to make a comment on this, Magnus is ONLY here because I've said what I said. If WAYNE chooses to say nothing, then I'll remain silent too. However ... these "newcomers" to whom I refer whose ONLY interest has been "scorched earth competition" and carving up the market is, to MY mind at least, the REASON why Wayne threw in the towel.

I'll leave it there until WAYNE speaks. :(

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: "No ... I'm going to wait for WAYNE on this one ... but MAGNUS is one of the REASONS why it ain't worth doing TDS anymore. Him, and his buddy Andreas (A2) creating absolutely unreasonable expectations with "WE WILL NEVER do SUBSCRIPTIONS" ... and when the roosters returned, he raised his PRICES.

I'll remain silent until WAYNE has the opportunity to make a comment on this, Magnus is ONLY here because I've said what I said. If WAYNE chooses to say nothing, then I'll remain silent too. However ... these "newcomers" to whom I refer whose ONLY interest has been "scorched earth competition" and carving up the market is, to MY mind at least, the REASON why Wayne threw in the towel.

I'll leave it there until WAYNE speaks. :(" }-
I stay outside what you are thinking about f.e. Magnus and Andreas, that's not my beer.

But past saturday and this sunday there was time enough for Wayne to give his point of view, Wayne cannot excuse himself with: "well guys, now it's weekend and washing my car is more important then defend myself against possible attacks and/or bad press in my Official DCS Public Forum on Wilders Security Forums."

[Magnus Mischel]

Kevin,

Absolutely delightful to see you too! If your business model isn't working for you then perhaps you need to change strategies somehow. All I can say is that it is indeed possible for a trojan scanner to be successful. I'm flattered that you still consider TrojanHunter, the 5-year old veteran, to be a newcomer. Might I suggest we take this conversation to email or PM so as to not hijack this thread?

[Antarctica]

-{ Quote: "
But past saturday and this sunday there was time enough for Wayne to give his point of view, Wayne cannot excuse himself with: "well guys, now it's weekend and washing my car is more important then defend myself against possible attacks in Wilders Security Forums."" }-

I think DCS as forgot one thing, the most important in your business
ARE YOUR CUSTOMERS. Without them you are nothing! 8)

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "It seems to me that covering spyware gives BOClean an advantage. Spruce up the UI, give it a new name (sorry, but I have a couple people I've tried to get to use BOClean, but won't because they can't take it seriously just because of the name & look) and market it as an advanced/industrial strength cleaner that does what the others cannot, cleaning out the important stuff with a minimum of resource usage. I'm sure some of this is coming, and when it does I think it will make a positive difference since the ATs have a decisive advantage over plain spyware scanners. CounterSpy, SpySweeper, etc., all seem to be doing pretty well for themselves, offering something that picks up after even those would, I'm sure, raise some eyebrows by some that don't even know about the ATs." }-

Singularly on the basis that MAGNUS has come out to play here on this thread, one that WAYNE and I can agree on without "interlopers", what Magnus offers and what BOCLEAN offers aren't the LEAST bit comparable. Except perhaps to people with expectations of "you scan for viruses, therefore you scan for trojans too. Nope. For those who actually BUY BOClean, it's ALL about "BOClean? Never heard of it." Our code is typically used, completely STEALTHED from the end user as well as the system as a "set it and forget it" solution for admins. There are now almost 3 million copies of BOClean out on various desktops, with no icon, no GUI, no signs of it even BEING there. THAT is what we do, and perhaps our customer's desire to be INVISIBLE has hurt our RETAIL sales since we're not popping up alert boxes faster than you can say "coolwebsearch.com." :)

Our success in the corporate world is comletely at odds with the expectations of the public, what we do is designed to be "invisible" to most. And being "invisible" is most definitely a "marketing disadvantage" but that's whta those who PAY the bills want. NO "advertising," just MAKE IT GO AWAY.

ANyway, I'm sure I pithed off Magnus with my previous comment, can't wait to hear the sputtering. I know WAYNE got tired of it too. Magnus is the *ONLY ONE* who ... :(

But if the public wants that, no problem ... in fact, let the "newcomers" have *ALL* the home market! WE don't care. BOClean was never designed for "home users" to begin with. :)

[Starrob]

Over the years, I have enjoyed all of the Ego-head butting that all of the AT developers enjoy doing occasionally to each other. I always love getting out my popcorn and watching the debates because sometimes I learn a few things.

I will say this, however, all the Ego head butting is effectively cannabilizing the industry faster than it has to go.

I personally don't feel there will be what we now call a AT in several years. Things are evolving. I think vendors that stay in the AT mindset are going to get bushwacked at some point in time.

I say to all developers that you are going to have to innovate into survival. I mean truly innovate....not copy your rivals ideas and put out a copycat product.

Now, I sit back....get my popcorn, wait until Wayne comes in and let the head-butting begin, if that is indeed what you developers want to do....cannabilize the few sales out there that are still left.


Starrob



-{ Quote: "Kevin,

Absolutely delightful to see you too! If your business model isn't working for you then perhaps you need to change strategies somehow. All I can say is that it is indeed possible for a trojan scanner to be successful. I'm flattered that you still consider TrojanHunter, the 5-year old veteran, to be a newcomer. Might I suggest we take this conversation to email or PM so as to not hijack this thread?" }-

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "Kevin,

Absolutely delightful to see you too! If your business model isn't working for you then perhaps you need to change strategies somehow. All I can say is that it is indeed possible for a trojan scanner to be successful. I'm flattered that you still consider TrojanHunter, the 5-year old veteran, to be a newcomer. Might I suggest we take this conversation to email or PM so as to not hijack this thread?" }-

Well, I sure hate to have to be the extender of "sour grapes," but HGOW disingenuous of you to make such a comment, PARTICULARLY in a thread where Unca Wayne has had to deal with you HOW many times? And so many "BOClean's people are BANKRUPT of morals?" Ummm ... no ... you see? Us antitrojan vendors (prior to YOU and Andreas) COOPERATED with each other, and SHARED with one another. Wasn't until you and Andreas came along as if WE owed you something with "give us your libraries of trojans to compete with you or we'll make it ugly." And you DID! :)

But no ... if WAYNE wants to say something, this is HIS forum, and I'm SURE he has some things to say, as do I. Ya see? We STILL have all those emails in our backup tapes. But that matters not. *MY* point in backing up TDS (A "competitor of ours" if you didn't notice) is that WAYNE and I go bac to the days of YORE! Five years, heh. And no, for all of your pointing fingers at both Wayne and I, you are *NOT* getting slack here. Sorry. YOUR "scorched earth" behaviors are the reason why TDS3 died, and there will be no TDS4 and I'm certain that Unca Wayne will have comments. Like TH, HE also takes weekends off to let his folks have some PEACE. Not here though. :(

Bottom line, you're in the wrong place with the wrong BS this time. Sorry bro - if you wanna go back to YOUR forums and complain about how "immoral" I am, please do so ... but YOU sir are the REASON for the death of TDS, and ALMOST our own ... "We'll NEVER charge subscriptions!" And THEN you raised your price. Actions speak louder than words. :(

[Magnus Mischel]

Well it certainly seems someone is in a good mood today ::) Kevin, I have nothing to prove to you, as you are probably well aware. Folks, please don't be too offended by Kevin's posts - I am sure that he is under a lot of stress at the moment. As for working weekends - well, I won't apologize for that. I just want what's best for my customers and my company.

[Triple Helix]

Play nice!!

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/images/other/CLAP2.GIF

Cheers,

[Infinity]

it's not worth it and useless energy...

but I cannot believe this **** .. someone wanted the last sentence to say ;)

I wonder why that would be ... :P

[Triple Helix]

-{ Quote: "it's not worth it and useless energy...

but I cannot believe this **** .. someone wanted the last sentence to say ;)

I wonder why that would be ... :P" }-

So very true!!;)

Cheers,

[....]

-{ Quote: "but YOU sir are the REASON for the death of TDS, and ALMOST our own ... " }-

LMAO!

[Infinity]

edited: sorry... >:(

[Don Miller]

Shock hardly describes this news. Can I rely on ProcessGuard and PortExplorer in the same way as I have relied on TDS?? Good grief!!

[NICK ADSL UK]

Could we please stick with the main topic of the discontinuation of TDS please. Also can you please refrain from any personal comment's which distracts from this thread

Thank you

[Notok]

-{ Quote: "Our success in the corporate world is comletely at odds with the expectations of the public, what we do is designed to be "invisible" to most. And being "invisible" is most definitely a "marketing disadvantage" but that's whta those who PAY the bills want. NO "advertising," just MAKE IT GO AWAY.
" }-Ok, that makes sense, I wasn't aware that BOClean was primarily made for corporate environments, although I did know that there was definitely that aspect to it. With TDS gone now, maybe it would be worth thinking about in one of the upcoming versions?

For the record, though, I did buy BOClean (but have not bought TH), so I'm a little fuzzy on the distinctions you mention. I hope that the tension in your response was about TH, though, and not anything I said, as I meant it purely in optimistic support for you. I plan on working from home in the relatively near future and plan on buying a second copy for the work machine when I do. :)

Edit: Sorry Nick, was typing when you posted that.. hopefully this isn't too far off topic, but will refrain from further discussion (on this subject) in this thread.

[n0mad]

Several months ago, I had my account on the TDS private forums revoked due to misconduct. I immediately emailed support and was told that someone from my isp's block of ip numbers were DDosing them and that it would be looked into. Eventually I got to reregister with them, the whole matter struck me as rather strange.

On another note, I am one of the long term users who bought TDS3 and port Explorer. I offer no appologies for using the best proggies I could find to protect myself. I will offer my apologies to Wayne for not upping the $$$ for more support for TDS corporate.

That said this whole ordeal strikes me as unreal, dont know weither to be upset or sad for Wayne and TDS. For the time being I will continue using Kasperski and looking at products that truly appreciate me as a consumer.

:lurking:

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "Over the years, I have enjoyed all of the Ego-head butting that all of the AT developers enjoy doing occasionally to each other. I always love getting out my popcorn and watching the debates because sometimes I learn a few things.

I will say this, however, all the Ego head butting is effectively cannabilizing the industry faster than it has to go.

I personally don't feel there will be what we now call a AT in several years. Things are evolving. I think vendors that stay in the AT mindset are going to get bushwacked at some point in time.
Starrob" }-

Hate to give you a free "I told you so" card, but YOU TOLD tehm so, and *I* will back you up on that. Looks at what people are using for tools these days ("your system SHOULD be clean first") ... and while our buddy has sewed the seeds of doubts, "it won't help you if you're ALREADY INFECTED" ... (BULLSKIRT!) those who DON'T know the machinations fo malware don't KNOW it ain't bacon. :(

YES ... "traditional anti-malware" is ALREADY dead! That's why 4.12 in OUR line of reality ... and the need hasn't QUITE flipped yet, but it's DAMNED close where there is NO hope for file scanners OR memory scanners ... if you don't stop it when it comes in, then you're not GOING TO. And once again, 'scanning" ain't the answer. Proprietaries require that I don't say much more.

SO MANY "antimalwares" depend on MADSHI trojan codings (I won't name names) and they're ALREADY prevented from doing their thing as of SP2. And MADSHI ain't kept up, with what FEW bug fixes continuinig to crash and resulting in authors having to CATCH an exception before it's noticed with a "illagal function" banner in people's faces. DELPHI is the SECOND most used trojan factory there is, second ONLY to Visual Basic among the "script kiddies" and those "leet script kiddies" selling anti-malware such as IST, "SpywareNo" and others. ANSI C, anyone? *WITH* buffer overflow protection by NOT using Borland's "C" libraries to which all delphi code eventually resolves? :)

Apologies for the cat-fights, but NOBODY was paying attention when all of this MATTERED. And when "Windows VISTA" is released ... hahahahahah. :(

Sorry for the sour grapes here, but Unca Wayne's decision hurts US as well - we are close friends and so MUCH of what we BOTH did are no longer. I feel like my lifemate walked away, such was how Wayne, Gavin and the rest of us got along as "competitors" ... ALL of us were in the SAME "leaky boat" and the more eyes and ears to the bulkhead, the better everybody's (ESPECIALLY our mutual customers) chances were of survival. I personally lament the passing from a standpoint of Wayne and Gavin no LONGER doing what I do and it was just SO nice and SO much fun working with them for all these years.

And ONCE again - for DCS's customers - I understand that these are trying times, but being FREED from the BS which has cost us a chitload of money, I am CERTAIN that Unca Wayne has some EVER so serious TREATS for those who DON'T "lose the faith" and give Unca Wayne a shot ... him, Gavin and everyone else are as HONEST as the day is long. REALLY! And if *I* was a "cut-throat competitor" like some of the "shareware kids" out there, this would be the PERFECT opportunity to beat up on him like I did to "Magnus."

PLEASE cut Unca Wayne some slack - if you have our stuff, or NOT ... *I* can VOUCH for him as 100% "fair dinkum!" GIVE him the chance to work out what he'll DO for his customers! You *WON'T be disappointed, and PLEASE understand his OWN emotions about having to pull the ripcord on his OWN baby, and letting "dingos have a munch." I'll bet that he ONLY did it because he ABSOLUTELY had to, and the "cost" of all this will be something SO much better as to be COMPLETELY worth it.

Wayne was a PERSONAL FRIEND ... CUT him a break and wait!

Oh wait, he's a "competitor" ... I *should* be bashing him. NOT. He's my MATE after all these years and I can ONLY wish him well KNOWING how much he cares abotu those who pay HIS bills every bit as much as we care about those who pay OURS! :)

CHEERS, Unca Wayne! Don't mind me or the others ... and I just KNOW you won't. :)

[Rainwalker]

-{ Quote: "it's not worth it and useless energy...

but I cannot believe this **** .. someone wanted the last sentence to say ;)

I wonder why that would be ... :P" }-

Yeah, really!!! :( ...... MY LAST SENTENCE is.......... as end users do we really care ..........

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "... I am CERTAIN that Unca Wayne has some EVER so serious TREATS for those who DON'T "lose the faith" and give Unca Wayne a shot " }-

That's what I'm counting on! :D

-{ Quote: "... him, Gavin and everyone else are as HONEST as the day is long. " }-

I don't know him as well as you obviously do, but my experience with all of the DCS team on this forum verifies that. ;)

[gre87y]

-{ Quote: "Hate to give you a free "I told you so" card, but YOU TOLD tehm so, and *I* will back you up on that. Looks at what people are using for tools these days ("your system SHOULD be clean first") ... and while our buddy has sewed the seeds of doubts, "it won't help you if you're ALREADY INFECTED" ... (BULLSKIRT!) those who DON'T know the machinations fo malware don't KNOW it ain't bacon. :(

YES ... "traditional anti-malware" is ALREADY dead! That's why 4.12 in OUR line of reality ... and the need hasn't QUITE flipped yet, but it's DAMNED close where there is NO hope for file scanners OR memory scanners ... if you don't stop it when it comes in, then you're not GOING TO. And once again, 'scanning" ain't the answer. Proprietaries require that I don't say much more.

SO MANY "antimalwares" depend on MADSHI trojan codings (I won't name names) and they're ALREADY prevented from doing their thing as of SP2. And MADSHI ain't kept up, with what FEW bug fixes continuinig to crash and resulting in authors having to CATCH an exception before it's noticed with a "illagal function" banner in people's faces. DELPHI is the SECOND most used trojan factory there is, second ONLY to Visual Basic among the "script kiddies" and those "leet script kiddies" selling anti-malware such as IST, "SpywareNo" and others. ANSI C, anyone? *WITH* buffer overflow protection by NOT using Borland's "C" libraries to which all delphi code eventually resolves? :)

Apologies for the cat-fights, but NOBODY was paying attention when all of this MATTERED. And when "Windows VISTA" is released ... hahahahahah. :(

Sorry for the sour grapes here, but Unca Wayne's decision hurts US as well - we are close friends and so MUCH of what we BOTH did are no longer. I feel like my lifemate walked away, such was how Wayne, Gavin and the rest of us got along as "competitors" ... ALL of us were in the SAME "leaky boat" and the more eyes and ears to the bulkhead, the better everybody's (ESPECIALLY our mutual customers) chances were of survival. I personally lament the passing from a standpoint of Wayne and Gavin no LONGER doing what I do and it was just SO nice and SO much fun working with them for all these years.

And ONCE again - for DCS's customers - I understand that these are trying times, but being FREED from the BS which has cost us a chitload of money, I am CERTAIN that Unca Wayne has some EVER so serious TREATS for those who DON'T "lose the faith" and give Unca Wayne a shot ... him, Gavin and everyone else are as HONEST as the day is long. REALLY! And if *I* was a "cut-throat competitor" like some of the "shareware kids" out there, this would be the PERFECT opportunity to beat up on him like I did to "Magnus."

PLEASE cut Unca Wayne some slack - if you have our stuff, or NOT ... *I* can VOUCH for him as 100% "fair dinkum!" GIVE him the chance to work out what he'll DO for his customers! You *WON'T be disappointed, and PLEASE understand his OWN emotions about having to pull the ripcord on his OWN baby, and letting "dingos have a munch." I'll bet that he ONLY did it because he ABSOLUTELY had to, and the "cost" of all this will be something SO much better as to be COMPLETELY worth it.

Wayne was a PERSONAL FRIEND ... CUT him a break and wait!

Oh wait, he's a "competitor" ... I *should* be bashing him. NOT. He's my MATE after all these years and I can ONLY wish him well KNOWING how much he cares abotu those who pay HIS bills every bit as much as we care about those who pay OURS! :)

CHEERS, Unca Wayne! Don't mind me or the others ... and I just KNOW you won't. :)" }-
One word about this post
" Class "

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "That's what I'm counting on! :D
I don't know him as well as you obviously do, but my experience with all of the DCS team on this forum verifies that. ;)" }-

Unca Wayne and I go back nearly ten years now as (ahem) "competitors" and he's ALWAYS earned my UTMOST respect. He made a NECESSARY decision in order to take care of anyone who's given HIM money over all these years, but I can assure you that he WILL "make it right." Us "old-timers" are throwbacks to the days when the people who gave us money under WHATEVER circumstances were the people we bent over backwards to make happy. No matter what it cost either of us to ensure so. And I *know* my faith in Wayne isn't misplaced nor should anyone else's ... dunno what the "outcome" of all this will be, that's up to Unca Wayne. But REST ASSURED, he'll *DO* "fair dinkum" whatever that might result in. That is WHY I've always had nothing but he greatest respect for him.

I'm sure he'll be along soon after the machine crashes from all the email. But I can only say that y'all need to have a little more FAITH in Unca Wayne ... he AIN'T the "come lately pretender-hosers" ... he HAS morals ... you'll see! :)

[downthetubes]

Seems to me, that to offer any current TDS-3 customers, this new secret software that DCS is working on, for free, or at least at a heavily discounted price, would be the 'wisest' and most fair course of action for DCS to take at this time.

[PTSD69]

??? This comes as real relief to my PTSD! ;) I thought the problem I was having was due to a trojan downloader - SystemSoapPro (soap.exe) which I found when I did a sweep with "Counter Spy." Incidently, I've tried alot of different scumware,spyware sw and "Counter Spy" is the Sheet!
Prior to using this I had updated TDS and figured I'd sweep with it to see if this soap.exe trojan was more than just bubbles.
Low and behold, I get an error msg " Component 'ntsvoc.ocx' or one of its dependencies (habit forming maybe?) could not be correctly registered: A file is missing or corrupted.
I then went to your website and got this msg that TDS was no more and referred me here. I thought it was all part of the plot!!
I want to thank you for answering all of the dumb questions that I asked of you all, and I'm very saddened to see you have to bow out. This is like the dream one has where everyone in the room is wearing clothes except the dreamer! But I really did depend on you guys because there's a few folks that downright don't like me :'( .
Godspeed to all of you for the bang up job you provided us!!

[BlueZannetti]

To all:

I have removed two posts that are not relevant to the direct topic of this thread. If you cannot stay on the nominal topic here, and refrain from idle speculation, please take a breath and step back.

That said, I do feel that the rather strong opinions being voiced by any past/current/or prospective customer is absolutely fine. This is feedback that the vendor absolutely needs to hear.

As I note to the clients that my R&D group collaborate with, if you see a problem, tell me. The only problems that I can fix are the ones I know about. Sometimes it is difficult for the clients to see where I am coming from, many times I don't know where they're coming from, and decisions are made with incomplete appreciation of the global circumstances on all sides. Maybe we have some of that here, maybe not.

I do know that I understand and largely agree with many of the sentiments being voiced in this thread. However, I would ask people to consider where they want to be down the road, what is their goal, then work towards that goal.

My thanks to those who are trying to remain on topic and within the scope of decorum for the forum.

Blue

[Nitrox]

-{ Quote: "Seems to me, that to offer any current TDS-3 customers, this new secret software that DCS is working on, for free, or at least at a heavily discounted price, would be the 'wisest' and most fair course of action for DCS to take at this time." }-

I think this is a very fair proposition considering most of us bought TDS-3 in the hope of seeing an upgrade to version 4 which we will not get now.

[jonnypop]

When Wayne shows up, is there a chance he can recommend a substitute now that TDS is gone? Or is he the type to not want to offend anyone?

Are there any reputable anti-trojan comparisons out there?

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "When Wayne shows up, is there a chance he can recommend a substitute now that TDS is gone? Or is he the type to not want to offend anyone?

Are there any reputable anti-trojan comparisons out there?" }-


See Link (http://www.anti-trojan-software-reviews.com/).

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "When Wayne shows up, is there a chance he can recommend a substitute now that TDS is gone? Or is he the type to not want to offend anyone?" }-jonnypop,

Scan through the discussion in the other anti-trojan software (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=33) forum. Your answer lies there.

-{ Quote: "Are there any reputable anti-trojan comparisons out there?" }-In my estimation with the word reputable more appropriately replaced with useful, I would say frankly, no.

Blue

[jonnypop]

Is this the inkjet guy that Kevin was talking about? Oops, I guess that post was deleted now that I am looking for it.

I guess something more like av-comparative since it seems to be well regarded here.

[PTSD69]

Since I'm new to this forum, but a long time TDS fan, it pains me to see that alot of us are imploding and striking out at each other with "What's in it for me?" atitudes. What I'd like to ask all of the "elightened ones" is Reghance Privacy Suite a good replacement for TDS? It certainly got a 5 star write up, but does anyone have any experience with it?
After a long long time in the military, the word of the day was "Adapt or die." and although I'm not as saavy as many of you are, being angry or butting ego's is akin to trying to get a dead friend up and fighting again. It doesn't work.
I've used Boclean in the past, but I must plead ignorance to how it worked, but I believed it did what it said. TDS was great to have for the time we had it, but the threat still exists. SO, any word on Reghance? Thank you in advance. ???






'

[Nancy_McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "Is this the inkjet guy that Kevin was talking about? Oops, I guess that post was deleted now that I am looking for it.

I guess something more like av-comparative since it seems to be well regarded here." }-

Yes. One and the same.

[The Hammer]

-{ Quote: "See Link (http://www.anti-trojan-software-reviews.com/)." }-
Something more up to date maybe? This is at least two years old.

[Notok]

-{ Quote: "Something more up to date maybe? This is at least two years old." }-It was very recently updated, actually.. only the TDS-3 and a2 entries are out of date at this point.

[mercurie]

-{ Quote: "First of all, I'd like to thank Wayne for the healthy competition over the years. We may not always have been the best of friends, but I'm sure Wayne would agree that we spurred each other to do better. No hard feelings Wayne, and I wish you the best of luck in the future.

As for the speculation about TrojanHunter - well there is no need for any TrojanHunter user to be worried. The company is profitable, thank you very much, and I in fact plan to hire two more people this fall. TrojanHunter is here to stay. Just wanted to get that out of the way as there have been worried emails inquiring about TrojanHunter." }-Good to hear. Wish you well. :)

[mercurie]

-{ Quote: "Singularly on the basis that MAGNUS has come out to play here on this thread, one that WAYNE and I can agree on without "interlopers", what Magnus offers and what BOCLEAN offers aren't the LEAST bit comparable. Except perhaps to people with expectations of "you scan for viruses, therefore you scan for trojans too. Nope. For those who actually BUY BOClean, it's ALL about "BOClean? Never heard of it." Our code is typically used, completely STEALTHED from the end user as well as the system as a "set it and forget it" solution for admins. There are now almost 3 million copies of BOClean out on various desktops, with no icon, no GUI, no signs of it even BEING there. THAT is what we do, and perhaps our customer's desire to be INVISIBLE has hurt our RETAIL sales since we're not popping up alert boxes faster than you can say "coolwebsearch.com." :)

Our success in the corporate world is comletely at odds with the expectations of the public, what we do is designed to be "invisible" to most. And being "invisible" is most definitely a "marketing disadvantage" but that's whta those who PAY the bills want. NO "advertising," just MAKE IT GO AWAY.

ANyway, I'm sure I pithed off Magnus with my previous comment, can't wait to hear the sputtering. I know WAYNE got tired of it too. Magnus is the *ONLY ONE* who ... :(

But if the public wants that, no problem ... in fact, let the "newcomers" have *ALL* the home market! WE don't care. BOClean was never designed for "home users" to begin with. :)" }-
No way Kevin. This Home user is going to stick with you. Set it forget it. Simple UI, no eye candy, and no heavy load on the system. The whole thing still can be saved on a floppie disk too for those HD failures like the one that finally hit me. All just the way I like it. :) :) :)

Also I first learned of BoClean from a James Madison University IT department "paper" at their website. Wow check this out :o :) Do not know if that is one that helps care the load as they wanted all their students to load up with BO... ;) Glad I did not go with PestPatrol almost pulled the trigger on that before seeing the JMU site paper.

Oh, also thank Nancy for the heads up on ZA 6. ::)

[tempnexus]

I had been a BoClean and TDS customer since at least 2001 and I can say that BoClean has NEVER EVER LET ME DOWN. I have it running on my home PCs and my test bed (I just love BoClean Licenease policy it's meant for families and for every day life, something that others don't consider). Over those years BoClean was 98% accurate and I do go through a large amount of crap (not recently do to my Ph.D Thesis work). The 2% that was missed I have sent to Nancy or Kevin and to my suprise the turn around in analysis and signature update was between 2 hours-24 hours which is amazeing. The same goes for TDS software.
I have tried trojan hunter 2 and 3 in the past and it did miss a lot of things on my test bed. It has missed soo much that I have abandoned hope for 2 and then for 3, frankly I used it for only 5 hours just to see how accurate it gets and what happens when you throw things at it and boy it was crap! (sorry can't speak for 4 since I got fooled twice into thinking that maybe 3 got some improvement over 2).
So I personally take offense when a crappy company tries to undermine such great products as BoClean and TDS.

My Plea goes to Nancy and Kevin, Please DO NOT STOP UPDATEDING YOUR PRODUCT. IF YOU DO THEN THE MALWARE COMUNITY HAS WON!
I know your have now suffered a serious blow to malware shareing, but I hope that you will try to stay on top of definition updates.

Thank You
DCS and NSCLEAN for GREAT PRODUCTS, AND BELIEVE US THAT THE TRUE CUSTOMERS KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GREAT PRODUCTS AND SCAMDUCTS.

p.s.
I will still try to send you updates as always "Operation Ivy Mike".

P.S.S
I know I will get a lot of flame for this but hey as the saying goes "truth hurts and no one likes to hear the truth".

[The Hammer]

-{ Quote: "It was very recently updated, actually.. only the TDS-3 and a2 entries are out of date at this point." }-
BOClean review is for version 4.11. 4.12 has been out for approx 7 months. I liked the reviews there though and hope the reviews are updated.

[richrf]

One of the reasons I purchased Ewido, and continue to feel comfortable with the product and company, is that they have a very reasonable purchase/subscription model that can produce a healthy revenue stream.

I question the need for Ewido to have a "free product". From a business point of view and a licensed customer perspective, a believe 30 day free trials are preferable. As we have all learned from the TDS-3 situation, it is important to licensed customers whether or not a company has a good revenue model and is not simply giving away the product. If I am to depend upon any product, I like the assurance that the company has a good business model. At this time, my best guess is that Ewido's model is adequate.

Rich

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

We'd just like to firstly thank everyone for their support, it has been amazingly overwhelming to say the least. We knew that people would react in different ways to this decision, but we didn't expect so many people to be so supportive and understanding, so thankyou to everyone who has sent us emails or posts over the last few days - it's also a pleasant surprise to hear from so many old friends coming out from the woodwork. :) The reason for this I suspect is that most of you understand the reasons involved in the decision, and realise that this decision is in everyones best interests. There has been a lot of talk about business models, but the fact is as long as we develop TDS - regardless of pricing - we'll still have to work on it on a daily basis to stay on top of new trojans, preventing us from developing other programs. Just think about how many other programs have been released by other scanner companies ... not too many at all. This decision opens the way for further development on a wide variety of software - not just one program, so we all benefit - you as the customer will soon experience our upcoming software releases (including a new release just around the corner which is still under secret development by myself along with a programmer here that none of you have met yet), and as we won't be tied down to TDS we'll be able to devote more time to our existing programs as well, and likewise we'll also benefit in the sense that we'll have resources free to develop more than one program ... I may even be able to sneak in a little weekend holiday which would be my first holiday since December 1997, something that the daily rigors of TDS has prevented me from doing, but seeing as it's waited so long already it can wait a little longer.

Anyway, exciting times ahead folks. :)

We'll keep this (record-breaking) thread open for now but we'll have no choice but to close it if things aren't kept ON TOPIC (that is: TDS), and I also ask that other anti-trojan developers respect the fact that this thread isn't the place for promoting their wares or arguing with other developers, so such future posts will be removed by myself or another administrator without notice, thankyou for your understanding and co-operation.

[Starrob]

-{ Quote: "

We'll keep this (record-breaking) thread open for now but we'll have no choice but to close it if things aren't kept ON TOPIC (that is: TDS)" }-


This sort of made me laugh. How to keep on topic of TDS when there is no such thing as TDS? That is a conundrum......LOL

What will you do with both the TDS forum (both public and private) Will you archive it at some point or will you still allow posts about non-existent software?

As for me, I fully expected the reaction you got so far. You got the "Cheerleaders" that will always pat you on the back no matter what decisions you make. I think just about everyone picks their favorite pied pipers that they will follow anywhere no matter what.

You got the undecideds because they are so full of question marks that they don't know what to think.


You got your complainers that are not give you any benefit of doubt because rightly or wrongly they think your decision to end TDS-3 is a egregious sin in face of all the past promises. The complainers are going to dog you with many elaborate conspiracy theories for many months or possibly years......

I know you might not come out and say it but you committed a few business errors in the way the whole situation was handled. Some are going to forgive rather quickly and others it is going to take quite awhile.

Right now, you have a public relations nightmare. I am glad I am not in your shoes. Even if you put out superior products, you will have work to do in repairing the reputation of the company. I don't know how long that will take. Don't know whether it will be a few months or a few years.

All that being said, in the past DCS has been a company that has innovated. If the company continues to innovate then DCS might possibly be around in the changing face of the security industry. You are going to have to innovate your way into survival.

In the past, I always thought that DCS tooted their own horn a bit too much about their own products. I don't think horn tooting is going to work as much for the company any more because of significant reputation damage at this point in time. What DCS is going to need to do at this time is to put out the highest quality products that they have ever put out. Possibly doing things that no one else is doing....not copy cat ideas....original ones.

This is the type of companies that I look for....Best of breed products....or products that create their own category for their probably is not going to be a AT category in a few years....may not even be a AV category either.



Starrob

[Q Section]

A hard decision but congratulations on the preliminary announcement of even better things to come. Your software (your hard work) has served many of us well. Best wishes for your continuing hard work.

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Starrob,
Thanks for sharing your opinions, and you're entitled to them and I agree with many of your points. Allow me to add my responses to some of them ...

-{ Quote: "How to keep on topic of TDS when there is no such thing as TDS?" }-
Of course TDS still exists, and many people have already said they're still using it for its tools. The only thing that has essentially happened is that we'll no longer be releasing database or software updates for it, that's all.

-{ Quote: "Right now, you have a public relations nightmare." }-
Do we? :) Hard decisions are always controversial so there'll always be a lot of discussion, but a "public relations nightmare"? ... :)

-{ Quote: "Even if you put out superior products, you will have work to do in repairing the reputation of the company." }-
Reputation is of course entirely in the eye of the beholder, but I don't believe our reputation has been damaged at all (of course I could be completely wrong), but we've shown that we're not afraid to make the hard decisions if it's in the best interests of our customers. Hard decisions are almost always controversial like I said and there's nothing wrong with discussing it, but our focus is on results for our customers, and that is software - software today, tomorrow, and for many decades to come - we're going nowhere so we need to plan ahead for the long run. TDS - just one program - was tying our resources down completely, preventing us from releasing other programs (some of which will be bigger and better than TDS) and even making the release of TDS4 itself difficult, so although many people are sad and even angry to see TDS go (nobody moreso than myself, as the creator), I'm sure that same passion that people have shown for our software will again shine through with our new releases, now that we're free to develop them. All I'll say is that if you liked TDS, ProcessGuard, Port Explorer or any of our other programs including our myriad of freeware, you'll love what we've got just around the corner. :)

-{ Quote: "All that being said, in the past DCS has been a company that has innovated." }-
We pride ourselves on innovation, but innovation is wasted if it can't be developed.

Regards,
Wayne

[llll]

It's somewhat strange that Wayne does not address the most important issue:

What will happen to the people who recently purchased TDS-3 and were promised a free upgrade to TDS-4?

Will they get a (partial) refund? Will they get one of the "new products" for free (if they are prepared to wait for such products)? Or will they only get ProcessGuard for free (regardless of whether they need it or not)?

I think this is the real important question. And DCS should make an acceptable proposal.

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Hi "||||",
That's a very good question. Forgive me for not answering sooner but it's not possible for me to address every point or question that has been raised, this is quite a large thread :)

Even if you recently purchased TDS3 you're still entitled to a free license to your choice of Port Explorer or ProcessGuard (and still retain your TDS3 license which remains valid), however if you're not happy with that then simply email sales@diamondcs.com.au so we can discuss refund options. Also remember that TDS3 isn't just a scanner, it has a wide variety of tools onboard and is programmable, so effectively just one part of the program is changing (database updates), the rest of the program can still be used, including scanning with the existing database, which is why many people have already said that they'll continue using TDS. :)

Best regards,
Wayne

[Jooske]

Read carefully:
Wayne said the technology developed for TDS-4 will be used in the new product(s).
So there is not any misleading or waste of time, we knew two or more products would be coming to follow up TDS-3 so we could expect not all of them to carry the name TDS-4.
I leave TDS-3 installed for the many functions, including the handy scripts.
Beta-testers team, sleeves up for the new goodies!

[lllll]

@Wayne

"[Even?] if you recently purchased TDS3 you're [still?] entitled to a free license to your choice of Port Explorer or ProcessGuard, however if you're not happy with that then simply email sales@diamondcs.com.au so we can discuss refund options."

Subject to the bracketed language this sounds acceptable and should calm down many people who have complained in this thread.

[Chris12923]

-{ Quote: "Of course TDS still exists, and many people have already said they're still using it for its tools. The only thing that has essentially happened is that we'll no longer be releasing database or software updates for it, that's all." }-
That's all? So it is not a problem that there are no database updates? Are you saying it is not affecting user security by not updating def files?

Did DCS not know that keeping up with updates would be hard hard to do even though you have been doing daily updates with TDS-3 for years? It seems you had some knowledge that it would not be worth it by now if that is what you are saying.

-{ Quote: "However we're currently very happy with where ProcessGuard is at so we're now working on TDS-4, and hope to release that before any more ProcessGuard updates. http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=459445&postcount=18" }-
I guess this isn't going to happen? Or will there not be anymore PG updates now?

-{ Quote: "And again, even though TDS-4 is a 100% rewrite - a completely brand new program - all registered members will receive a FREE upgrade - even if the only TDS purchase you've ever made from us was a purchase of TDS-1 in the mid 90s." }-
Promises, promises...

-{ Quote: "I'll take you up on that bet - how much, and where do I sign?

TDS4 development is in advanced stages and we are more eager than anyone to release it, but that's all we can say for now. When it's released you'll understand why, and all registered users will be able to upgrade for free at our expense, even though the programs are completely re-written and brand new and have incorporated several years of new research and technologies.

So please be patient, you will be rewarded. In the meantime, have a look at ProcessGuard which offers unique anti-trojan/anti-rootkit qualities of its own.http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=316880&postcount=12" }-


And how much was the bet worth? I wish I could have taken Wayne up on this one. I just hope that other companies don't follow this path. Sorry if this sounds harsh but just trying to shed light.

Thanks,

Chris

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Hi Chris,
A lot of TDS4 technology will be released in our next program, although it won't of course have a database. We could of course keep working on TDS, but that would be the only program you'd be getting from us, and we wouldn't be able to grow much more due to the limited market. We're now free to develop a lot more programs, some of which will be bigger and better than TDS, as well as enhance our existing software. We have to think about the future, not just tomorrow as we plan to be releasing software for decades to come. The business is already in its 18th year, but TDS has been the single factor preventing growth - even the development of TDS4 itself, and we have so many programs we want to get out there for you guys. I know these things aren't always easy to understand as there are a lot of underlying issues, but we wouldn't be making hard decisions like this if it wasn't in the best interests of all of our customers. You must look at the big picture and realise that we have much more to offer than just one program. You like TDS, so I've no doubt you'll love what we've got coming up next. :)

Best regards,
Wayne

[Starrob]

-{ Quote: "




Reputation is of course entirely in the eye of the beholder
Wayne" }-

LOL.......I see that you do read some of my posts. I have made many "in the eye of the beholder posts"

Just as I recognize other readers that have read my posts when they talk about "Best of Breed" products.

Well, I am looking for "Best of Breed" products. Not just products that do their job well but products that most consider a security necessity because they protect against "real" threats and/or possible "real" future threats as opposed to threats that have much hype but not as dangerous as the hype.

Now that you have the time, DCS would be better served to increase the documentation of their programs. The documentation could include analysis of the actual threats that are out there and what the software protects against and most importantly what it does not protect against.



Starrob

[Defenestration]

Since you offered a free update to TDS-4 when it was to be released, and you freely admit that TDS-4 technology will be used in other products, how about revising your original offer for TDS-3 users who have had it for less than 12 months to include a free update to one of your new apps.

This seems logical to me and without an offer like this, your original promises of a free update to TDS-4 were plainly an untruth, no matter what way you look at it or try to explain it away.

Bear in mind that with an offer like this, most users who currently feel aggrieved will be placated and more than likely continue to support DCS by purchasing other new products, thus turning a bad situation into a good one.

Please reconsider your offer Wayne.