TDS software line discontinued

[NAMOR]

-{ Quote: "Hi Chris,
A lot of TDS4 technology will be released in our next program, although it won't of course have a database. We could of course keep working on TDS, but that would be the only program you'd be getting from us, and we wouldn't be able to grow much more due to the limited market. We're now free to develop a lot more programs, some of which will be bigger and better than TDS, as well as enhance our existing software. We have to think about the future, not just tomorrow as we plan to be releasing software for decades to come. The business is already in its 18th year, but TDS has been the single factor preventing growth - even the development of TDS4 itself, and we have so many programs we want to get out there for you guys. I know these things aren't always easy to understand, but we wouldn't be making hard decisions like this if it wasn't in the best interests of all of our customers. You like TDS, so I've no doubt you'll love what we've got coming up next. :)

Best regards,
Wayne" }-


Do you do open beta testing for your products? If so how do we get on THE list when a beta is ready for something?

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Defenstration,
I know it seems logical to give away free licenses to a future program if it has some TDS4 components in it, but these programs still aren't TDS4, and we won't be offering free upgrades to a program which hasn't been released yet as we've been criticised for doing that before - you just did then, for example ... :)

Namor,
We have private beta testing, members are invited to become beta testers if they frequently help others here at this forum and show good general knowledge of our software. :)

[NAMOR]

Thanks Wayne.

[Noia]

Make it open source, let the world benefit from the technology you will no longer support.

[dallen]

I am in South Korea right now and unfortunately I missed out on the news and have been trying to catch up on reading this entire thread. Of course with a topic like this that's a lot of reading. Many people that are active in this forum may have read one of my many harsh criticisms of DiamondCS for their lack of communication with their customers, or should I say their unwillingness to be open with information pertaining to the release of TDS-4 in particular. I commend them on telling us their decision, but I also see that they, meaning Wayne and his company, continue to withhold information surrounding this unexpected change. For example, when should we expect this new magical software and what will it be?
Actually however, these questions are only relevant under the presumption that we as previous customers with be future customers. In reading this thread I see what I've always seen since I joined this forum. I see loyalty. It was one of the motivating factors in my decision to purchase, not one, but every DCS product. At first I was amazed how loyal many of you, the paying customers, are (not to mention highly intelligent). About 4-6 months ago I began to consider the possibility that the loyalty was more like blind faith and began to question my own faith in both DiamondCS and Wayne. The reason for this shift in thinking was that I became increasingly upset about the perpetual delay in releasing TDS-4. Now we are being told that it will never come. I am angry and feel cheated. The offer of another one of your products is generous to some, but a slap in the face to many others. For one, many of us already own them so the offer is essentially worthless. Second, what makes you think that we want one of your products after you've essentially lied to us. I know that this comment will be met with a flurry of continued loyalists' comments that will state how they've had TDS since they were born and they've seen real value. This is kind of loyalty may seem great from your perspective Wayne, but it is a little disturbing to me. You must have great charisma because it seems that people are going to continue to line up for your products. I think that your products are great and that you are a wonderful software developer. On the other hand, I like many others, question your business planning acumen, from a strategic aspect as well as financial.
It seems that a breach of contract has occurred and you are wise, not generous, to be offering refunds. You say that the decision to kill the TDS project was made to free up resources to allow you to reallocate them to other projects. I wonder how much of those resources will be used to compensate the victims, or should I say potential plantiffs.

[Jooske]

Thought already, what kept you so long Dallen.
In fact i thought you were taking your time to find the words after finding back your voice after this shock, which cost me some time myself too btw.
Dallen, with all your studying, does it include usefull marketing stuff which you could discuss with Wayne in private emails exchange if you think it could help the business even better?


The software is magical, the company is a diamond, software composed into new tools, people who want their financial satisfaction can have one of the existing programs now or expect a generous offer like always in near future when the new program(s) ship.
DiamondCS, the people and the products have a certain charisma and all were helping to keep our valuable systems secured all these years and will do with the new products.
Closing the one program does not make our systems unprotected all at once as the products have always been many steps ahead of the competition (which competition?) and malware around, so even though it does feel somewhat uncomfortable we have still alternatives available for our protection till the new programs are ready for install on our systems.

I posted several times in this thread now and i do repeat: i don't mind of on top of my new program the name reads TDS Pro or any other new name, as Wayne has explained in older threads and here the technologies developed and invented for the TDS-4 environment will be included in the new products, so patience is the thing to save us. We do get what has been promissed and most probably more than that, just with another name on top.
If we look in the long wishlist thread we asked for a new layout, countless features, enhancements, skins, less update time, more and more and as much as possible will most probably be included in the new software.
To refresh memories: there were plans to cut TDS-4 in three separate products which could be used in combination or stand alone using the same databases, so they would have names different from TDS already.
At that time we did not know what it was going to look like, just a few components names Wayne posted. So now one new project is near realisation, using the technology as promissed.

Looking forward to the new gems in the jewelry box!

[Starrob]

Dallen is a example of what I mean by damaged reputation. Yes, DCS has loyal customers but this incident has produced some that will now be violent critics that might be annoying pests in a variety of ways.

The reason I said Public Relations nightmare is that Public Relations is not going to get rid of bad feelings. You will win some back if you put out superior technology but some customers you might have lossed forever since I personally feel there are a couple of more developers that have equal talent level to what you have at DCS.

Your main advantage is that customers have a great deal of difficulty of seperating "wheat from chaff", so instead of going and finding equivalent products or learning what my friend Pollmaster calls "common sense" they simply flock back into the fold of your tent.

I would probably always be under your tent too but I fall in to the camp of doing a lot of research on things. Somethings become apparent to me over time. Others I learn because out of all of the posters, I have only found 4 really that have a good idea of what happens under the hood of the software. Three of them, I talk to privately and they sometimes point me in the direction of what questions to ask. The other one, I have not talked to either on the Wilders Board or in private. I just read what he talks about with interest whenever he does pop on and say something.

I am sort of neutral in this whole thing. I will not say I will never use DCS software again but I will not say I will use it either.

What I want to see is not only superior products but increased documentation of the programs. I would like to know more about the program and why I should have it....I don't want to hear simple marketing or positioning messages....like ask a question and instead of a answer getting the usual "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain"

There are some developers that answer my questions fairly directly. No, they don't give out the exact designs of their product or the exact methods to defeat it but they do answer questions with a minimum of marketing messages. They will admit their program have weaknesses and can theoretically be defeated by those weaknesses but they don't give the step by step method on how to do it but they simply say that they are working on it. There are two guys in particular that let their products stand on their own and it is also extremely rare if ever to see either developer engage in public ego bashing with other developers. I do see that DCS has learned their lesson about doing that.

Well, I guess I made enough comments. I will sit back with my popcorn and watch.



Starrob

[dallen]

Jooske,
Speaking of voices, it's always good to hear yours.

Quoting Jooske-{ Quote: "...the technologies developed and invented for the TDS-4 environment will be included in the new products..." }-This new product that has TDS-4 tecnologies, is that the same product that Wayne told Defenstration won't be offered as a free upgrade because it won't be called "TDS-4?"
As for my voice, it's fine. Thanks for your concern. I'm out of the country now, so consquently I've been away from this forum. I leave for a few weeks and all hell breaks loose.
As for tips on marketing for Wayne...he probably knows more about that then I'll ever know. I didn't get the highest grades in that subject and I have little to no practical experience in the matter. I could offer some suggestions that might help mitigate the damages from this PR nightmare as it's been accurately chacterized.

Quoting Wayne-{ Quote: "I know it seems logical to give away free licenses to a future program if it has some TDS4 components in it, but these programs still aren't TDS4" }-Wayne...it not only seems logical, but ethical, if not contractual and legally enforceable.

[Infinity]

I won't say anything but I knew Dallen would pup up here :D

how you doing Dallen? what are we gonna do now? seems like sky is falling ;)

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Starrob,

It's important to consider that our customer base is much larger than just TDS customers, and for example many TDS users who take their security seriously also have ProcessGuard, Port Explorer and WormGuard - more to come soon. We value all of our customers - if we didn't we wouldn't keep offering free upgrades, free support, Members Area benefits, etc! (How much work for free do you do/give away at your work? :)), but it is just that - we value ALL of our customers, and we must keep all of their interests at heart when we make business decisions.

As already explained the resources required for TDS were such that it made development on TDS4 difficult, let alone any of our other programs like ProcessGuard. It essentially comes down to this - we can either remain stagnant in terms of growth and just develop one program in TDS, or we can drop TDS to open the gates for development and allow company growth, creating many various programs and attacking security from multiple angles, not just one. It's a business decision, and no director in his right mind would choose to remain stagnant when growth is an option, especially when it is so beneficial for both parties - you'll be seeing software from us soon that you wouldn't see if we kept developing TDS.

The demands for developing adequate scanners these days are becoming huge with so many different trojans/viruses/encrypters/packers/mutation engines etc, and although most scanners do an OK job they all have various flaws, TDS included (we're literally talking about every scanner), and it is common knowledge that it's easy to modify executables to become undetected by scanners, proof in itself that scanners are not adequate when used on their own, and as time goes on with more and more trojans and attack vectors being released it will become more and more difficult for anti-trojan developers in particular, especially as most are one-man operations, and I can tell you now that it's too much for one man, yet sales in the anti-trojan market will never be high enough to justify many analysts, so if we did decide to proceed with TDS it certainly wouldn't be up to a level I would consider acceptable, simply due to time constraints. Many also argue that it's becoming time to move away from scanners, although I think they'll still have a valuable place for quite some time, but their flaws certainly demand other software backing them up (example: ProcessGuard to prevent termination/modification/suspension), which is what we're now finally free to work on, and which we look forward to releasing soon.

Best regards,
Wayne

[Infinity]

thanx Wayne for explaining!

Good luck,

[dallen]

-{ Quote: "I won't say anything but I knew Dallen would pup up here :D

how you doing Dallen? what are we gonna do now? seems like sky is falling ;)" }-Infinity,
I'm doing pretty well...Seoul is a fantastic place. To answer your question about what to do now: I guess we pull up a seat and see if Starrob will share the popcorn.

[Infinity]

LMAO :D, let's hope for some action, I cannot agree more but sometimes things goes the way things goes...you should have known that (mba mister ;))

best wishes,

Inf.

[Jooske]

-{ Quote: "I leave for a few weeks and all hell breaks loose." }-
Now you see? You did it! Why did you go in the first place without any warning? 8)

Think after the closing TDS-4 project it would be hard to make promisses for a next future product. I'm sure there will be made agreements in line as we do know from DiamondCS over the past years.


For the marketing ideas exchange: at least it could make sure you're in line about that. It's not my field at all, so can't jump into any conclusions myself. :lurking:

[Wondering]

Is Gavin still working at DiamondCS?

[CrownKing82]

-{ Quote: "Do we? :)

Hard decisions are always controversial so there'll always be a lot of discussion, but a "public relations nightmare"? ... :)

Regards,
Wayne" }-

public relations nightmare... Don't know about that... But I do know you advertised and sold a product to me and a lot of other people based on the offer of a free upgrade. I think we can dispense with any further hyperbole and cut to the chase.

I emailed a very detailed and interesting PDF package to Jim McGinty's office. You know who Mr. McGinty is, don’t you Wayne? Maybe we should let his people be the final judge of the propriety and legality of your actions here. If you were on the up and up no problem. If not, well there is the question of deceptive advertising for starters. If you can't prove ongoing development with intent to fulfill a free upgrade to TDS-4 for everyone who purchased TDS-3… Well, that moves it to fraud, where it really gets interesting. If we add the fact that you sold TDS-3 internationally via the internet… well you can see where this might go… I suspect you are going to find you will have a rough road ahead. I wonder how impressed they will be with your glib approach. I know you will probably ax this post. But it won't change the legal dilemma you will be facing right in your own back yard. The glib and smug approach you displayed so cleverly here won’t count for much. All that matters is the rule of law. And, that is what you are going to be held to; I can assure you of that, sir.

Do you really think you can evade this by saying; well we changed the features or the name… blah, blah, blah.

I for one resent being promised something and then being told tough luck we just changed the rules of the game, especially with such a pompous, snide attitude. I think you are going to find you can't change the law that easily. If you consulted an attorney before you did this, you really should fire him or her. If you haven’t consulted an attorney regarding where you are with this. I would suggest you do so as soon as possible.

This is going to get very expensive for you, I hope you realize that. Just as it was for all of us who you left twisting in the wind. For a lot of people, not me, but a lot of others it was no small price they paid for TDS-3 and the promise made.

[Infinity]

-{ Quote: "public relations nightmare... Don't know about that... But I do know you advertised and sold a product to me and a lot of other people based on the offer of a free upgrade. I think we can dispense with any further hyperbole and cut to the chase.

I emailed a very detailed and interesting PDF package to Jim McGinty's office. You know who Mr. McGinty is, don’t you Wayne? Maybe we should let his people be the final judge of the propriety and legality of your actions here. If you were on the up and up no problem. If not, well there is the question of deceptive advertising for starters. If you can't prove ongoing development with intent to fulfill a free upgrade to TDS-4 for everyone who purchased TDS-3… Well, that moves it to fraud, where it really gets interesting. If we add the fact that you sold TDS-3 internationally via the internet… well you can see where this might go… I suspect you are going to find you will have a rough road ahead. I wonder how impressed they will be with your glib approach. I know you will probably ax this post. But it won't change the legal dilemma you will be facing right in your own back yard. The glib and smug approach you displayed so cleverly here won’t count for much. All that matters is the rule of law. And, that is what you are going to be held to; I can assure you of that, sir.

Do you really think you can evade this by saying; well we changed the features or the name… blah, blah, blah.

I for one resent being promised something and then being told tough luck we just changed the rules of the game, especially with such a pompous, snide attitude. I think you are going to find you can't change the law that easily. If you consulted an attorney before you did this, you really should fire him or her. If you haven’t consulted an attorney regarding where you are with this. I would suggest you do so as soon as possible.

This is going to get very expensive for you, I hope you realize that. Just as it was for all of us who you left twisting in the wind. For a lot of people, not me, but a lot of others it was no small price they paid for TDS-3 and the promise made." }-

why don't you go threaten someone else will ya??? what's that all about...damn...talking about the importance of software he? :-[

[mikkey]

-{ Quote: "Hi Chris,
A lot of TDS4 technology will be released in our next program, although it won't of course have a database. " }-

So this means that your 'next' program as you call will be offered to TDS3 customers for free? You promised upgrade from TDS3 to TDS4 for free. You now say that your next release uses(and in your words) "A LOT OF TDS4 TECHNOLOGY will be released in our next program". It is logical to offer the free upgrade for this new program. It is in fact TDS4 with a different name.

Do the right thing DCS. You are looking more and more like you sacked TDS4 just so that you could renege on your promise, yet still release what is predominently TDS4 but with a new name.

As i said, do the right thing!!!

[worldcitizen]

Dallen,

I honestly hope that DCS doesn't leave us in the lurch who have all their programs. I'm very disappointed by all this and hope that it all works out because how am I ever going to trust these people again who promised me for years TDS 4 and now are just telling me to buy their new products and that TDS 3 is useless to me as a scanner?

I really hope that DCS have the integrity and credibility not to leave us in the lurch. Maybe we just don't matter at all to them. We waited for years for TDS 4 and now lose it all and all we seem to be getting told is to look forward to buying their new products. After this huge let down who will trust these people's word ever again to want to buy from them or believe any promises made by this company? They seem very self-assuming about all this but it may do them far more damage than they realise.

Dave

[Infinity]

ok, dave...

the disicion is like 6 days online for the public...it's way to soon to make judgements if you ask me...

way to soon...let's see how things go first before making any bold statements.

I personaly wouldn't believe all the negative comments...but I'll see if I am wrong and I will draw conclusions just like anyone else but for the moment it's just too soon.

that's my opinion guys,

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

CrownKing82,

Feel free to speak in a friendly, civilised manner if you wish, as legal threats generally don't sit well here.

A bit of history for you my friend. We've been giving away free upgrades to our software since the mid 90s. There are people here who only bought TDS1 or TDS2 of us, and have since received a free upgrade to TDS3, even though it was a complete rewrite. You don't get that from many companies, and we don't have to give away free upgrades - we could just charge for them like just about every other company does. Many others here have received upgrades from the various Port Explorer, ProcessGuard and WormGuard versions also. TDS4 is the only upgrade we've ever been able to unfulfill in our entire history of software development, and our business has been established now for over 18 years.

Perhaps you'd be happy if we just never offer free upgrades/updates anymore, as most companies do? It'll cost you more money, but at least we won't find ourselves in these rare situations if we're ever unable to release the program.

However according to your position, no developer should ever offer any free upgrades for software until the software has been released, or face legal action? Legal action because of something that was offered as a free bonus? Sorry my friend but there is no law preventing software developers from stopping development of their programs, I don't recall ever signing any contracts with you, and your legal threats won't change anything so feel free to write to Jim McGinty - or anyone for that matter. It's your time not mine.

Regards,
Wayne

[be honest]

I agree with other posters here who stated that those who bought TDS-3 at any time in the past should be entitled to a free program of their choice from DCS. Including any new program that may be released in the near future.

Especially new releases actually, because that's what you promised them! You already promised them a new program for purchasing TDS-3, so why can't you be fair and offer them one of your new programs for free? It's really only fair to do so, and anything less would be completely unfair and totally dishonest IMO.

You claim that recent users could get a refund, and that does seem fair, but that still doesn't address the issue of the promise that was made to ALL TDS-3 users.

And what about those loyal users who already bought PG or PE? Do you even care about those other loyal customers? If a TDS-3 user already has PG and PE then another program choice should be offered to them. I mean come on, they are some of your best customers (those who bought more than one DCS program). Are you just going to abondon your loyal customers?

You guys made a promise to allow a free upgrade of TDS-3 users to TDS-4, a nearly completely newprogram as you stated yourself Wayne, which many were waiting for and purchased TDS-3 for that very reason. In all fairness you really should offer TDS-3 users the choice to take ANY current DCS program of their choice for free, or allow them the choice to wait, and then selecting one of your new program releases for free. It would go a long way to show us that you are the honest and decent company that we all are hoping you still are.

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

worldcitizen,
-{ Quote: "I honestly hope that DCS doesn't leave us in the lurch who have all their programs." }-
This is exactly why TDS had to go - many people like yourself own several of our programs, and TDS is preventing us from working on any of them. Again we offer free upgrades to all of our software, but TDS has made it near impossible to do that (until now). We could keep working on TDS and let our other programs degrade, or drop TDS and resume work on our other programs, as well as other new programs which are crying out to be developed in this increasingly insecure world. We can't do both.

Remember, TDS is just ONE program, and security is a constantly evolving industry. We're evolving with it, others aren't, and sometimes changes need to be made to keep up with the times, decisions that not everybody would be prepared to make. We wouldn't have made this decision if it wouldn't benefit the majority of our customers, both now and in the long term. I'm prepared to face criticism now because I know my customers will benefit from this, not only in the coming months but for many years and hopefully decades to come, and in time it will become more clear to people why this decision needed to be made.

[Starrob]

Sure I'll share the popcorn....Wow, it has been awhile since I been in Seoul. It must have changed greatly. Last time I was in Korea, it was more third world than approaching first world.

Enough interlude....back to our regularly scheduled program......


-{ Quote: "Infinity,
I'm doing pretty well...Seoul is a fantastic place. To answer your question about what to do now: I guess we pull up a seat and see if Starrob will share the popcorn." }-

[Jooske]

Lot of repetition of arguments, most of which already answered or speculated on.
Anything new?

Wait and see and in the meantime keep the system secure.
Wayne does care and offered immediate software replacement of what is humanly possible at this time.

I for one just wait and continue user support as always.

About Gavin: have not heard about him leaving, even though i think his main task is the malware samples and definitions, Gavin is very good in lots of other things too and highly appreciated by all, not in the last place DiamondCS. See how long Gavin is there and what he accomplished!
Another thankyou Gavin is in it's place and hoping to enjoy and profit from your skills long time more!

[hawking]

lol you people here are hawks. free free give it to me free! that sounds exactly like my 3 year old daughter. Wayne youre crazy for giving awawy free programs you are now being shoot for your kindness lol

[Starrob]

Yeah, some people need to take a trip to the beaches of Thailand....I guarantee you will forget all about software.....lol


Starrob


-{ Quote: "why don't you go threaten someone else will ya??? what's that all about...damn...talking about the importance of software he? :-[" }-

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Starrob,
I'm envious, as TDS has prevented me from going on more than a 2-day holiday since Dec 1997.

[Don Pelotas]

-{ Quote: "I personaly wouldn't believe all the negative comments...but I'll see if I am wrong and I will draw conclusions just like anyone else but for the moment it's just too soon." }-
Why can't you belive it Infinity?, sure some may be speaking with an highpitched voice, but you can't expect users who feel left high and dry from one day to the other, to like it, can you? Especially those with a license bought within the last 6-10 months. :o

I can understand that you feel you got your money's worth as someone who have had TDS for many years, but not all are in this boat. ;)

As for me as an Process Guard licenseholder, i'm selfishly hoping that development of this will pick up, with new enhanced versions to come soon. :D

[Starrob]

Wayne, I can understand what you are talking about but the reason why I used the term "Public Relations Nightmare" is that you are not going to be able to talk your way out of this one.

Some of these people are emotionally hurt by the decision and are not going to respond to logical answers.

They are only going to respond to specific actions that they feel will make them whole again. The choice is simple. You can take specific actions that will bring many immediately back into your camp or.......

You can cut the line...letting the fishes go with the assumption that many will be back on the hook when they see your newest offerings....of course you will always lose some people but in the scheme of things it won't matter much.

The latter option is a gamble but it is a gamble we will see whether you take over the next few months. Only Wayne knows whether he will take the gamble because he sees the amount of responses both positive and negative in his email. If the negative responses are running like 80 or 90% then he would probably decide to take specific actions that people would percieve would make them whole (assuming it is financially affordable for the company).

If the negative response is around like 10% then he can live with the malcontents and would assume he can get half of the malcontents back in camp over time.

So right now, it is up in the air whether the malcontents would cause a change of mind in the handling of the situation or whether they are just barking into the wind.

Only Wayne can answer that one....Yeah....anyone else want popcorn?


Starrob



-{ Quote: "worldcitizen,

This is exactly why TDS had to go - many people like yourself own several of our programs, and TDS is preventing us from working on any of them. Again we offer free upgrades to all of our software, but TDS has made it near impossible to do that (until now). We could keep working on TDS and let our other programs degrade, or drop TDS and resume work on our other programs, as well as other new programs which are crying out to be developed in this increasingly insecure world. We can't do both.

Remember, TDS is just ONE program, and security is a constantly evolving industry. We're evolving with it, others aren't, and sometimes changes need to be made to keep up with the times, decisions that not everybody would be prepared to make. We wouldn't have made this decision if it wouldn't benefit the majority of our customers, both now and in the long term. I'm prepared to face criticism now because I know my customers will benefit from this." }-

[Don Pelotas]

-{ Quote: "Starrob,
I'm envious, as TDS has prevented me from going on more than a 2-day holiday since Dec 1997." }-
I honestly hope that you will soon be able to take a couple of weeks of, it's not healthy working for that long without a mental break from it all. :)

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Don,
-{ Quote: "As for me as an Process Guard licenseholder, i'm selfishly hoping that development of this will pick up, with new enhanced versions to come soon." }-
Now with TDS off the To Do list, yes we will have time to enhance our existing software. WormGuard, ProcessGuard and Port Explorer are all on the list as well as a secret project which will be out very soon. With TDS essentially all we'd be able to do is TDS, such is its time/resource demand.

Best regards,
Wayne

[Starrob]

The beaches of Thailand are the ticket. Bali also is good. I like Malaysia also......I only been to KL but heard good things about Penang. Also heard Vietnam is nice.....yeah....after this all blows over take a vacation.

I suggest the malcontents take a vacation too. I used to get heavily emotional about software but I realized maybe 6 or 8 months ago that there is more to life than waiting anxiously for the next update.


Starrob


-{ Quote: "Starrob,
I'm envious, as TDS has prevented me from going on more than a 2-day holiday since Dec 1997." }-

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Starrob,
You must watch more soap operas than I do ... :)
This is simply the discontinuation of a software product. It happens on a very regular basis, programs don't live forever, and I don't see how people could be "emotionally hurt" by this, especially as the main beneficiaries will be our customers - it's a small loss for what will be years of gain. If anybody would be emotionally hurt it should be me - I've paid for the ongoing maintenance since I created TDS in the mid-late 90s out of my own pocket in terms of money, and with my own time and resources in terms of development. It is now at the stage where it is costing me so much time and so much money that it is not worth it, especially when I could be using that time to develop software far more powerful and beneficial to the user.

Put it this way ... some people will inevitably want us to keep polishing the old Bentley and keep it running, but they'll realise this decision was in everyones best interests when we start wheeling out a Ferrari, then a Porsche, etc ... apologies for the horrible analogy, but you get what I mean :). We're just evolving with the times, and we're not afraid to make the big decisions along the way if they're ultimately be beneficial for our customers.

[Starrob]

I used to be a big fan of Soap Operas in the 1980's but now I set my TV channel to CNBC. Talking stocks is even a bigger Soap Opera because money is involved.

I will tell you why people get emotional. Many people rightly or wrongly get emotionally involved with the products they buy. Take stocks for example. I have seen people buy stocks and ride it all the way down to zero simply because they fell in love with the idea of the stock. It is a ego thing after a person buys. People want to buy things they feel is number one so they can feel emotionally superior to all the other idiots in this world.

It benefits you to have buyers that buy emotionally. They fall in love with the product, your company, they fall in love with you and hang on to every word you say....for some people you can do no wrong. This benefits you....You will have people defending your products when they don't even have the financial incentive to do so.

I have learned over time to take as much emotion as I can out of buying decisions. I prefer to look at things more logically. I found out I make better buying decisions that way and I don't feel that the seller is personally targetting me, if things don't go well.

I can guarantee you that you have a few people that think you personally targetted them and their whole lifestyle because many have made their whole lifestyle centered around their computer.

I learned I was getting that way too.....that is why I'll go to Malaysia, Philippines, Thailand, Singapore and sometimes go to places so far out that there is virtually no internet. Take a trip to Yogjakarta and go see Borobudur. There ain't no computers if you decide to hike up the side of one of the volcanoes that are in the area.

My whole point is that I can understand your decisions but there are some that are emotionally involved to a extreme level. I guess some feel personally slighted even though you don't even know them personally.

Ok, I got to shower and start my day....


Starrob


-{ Quote: "Starrob,
You must watch more soap operas than I do ... :)
This is simply the discontinuation of a software product. It happens on a very regular basis, programs don't live forever, and I don't see how people could be "emotionally hurt" by this, especially as the main beneficiaries will be our customers - it's a small loss for what will be years of gain. If anybody would be emotionally hurt it should be me - I've paid for the ongoing maintenance since I created TDS in the mid-late 90s out of my own pocket in terms of money, and with my own time and resources in terms of development. It is now at the stage where it is costing me so much time and so much money that it is not worth it, especially when I could be using that time to develop software far more powerful and beneficial to the user.

Put it this way ... some people will inevitably want us to keep polishing the old Bentley and keep it running, but they'll realise this decision was in everyones best interests when we start wheeling some Ferraris out ... :)" }-

[Jooske]

Now since you like soaps so much go play the SS3 scripts we created with the msagents singing and dancing on your screen. Especially the CokeMachine (with a voice-commanded computer helper included) and the InnerPeace script (which shipped with TDS) come to mind.
There are more usefull scripts as well, including the jukebox.

Yes, emotionally connected with TDS, in using TDS and support we got lots of cultural education as well. Not any need to uninstall it at all.
So we don't have to miss that little voice recommending to add sleep to our to-do list and asking bites from our lunch. It stays up with the exec protection till that is replaced with something new. I use TDS for pronounciation too.

[dallen]

-{ Quote: "CrownKing82,

Feel free to speak in a friendly, civilised manner if you wish, as legal threats generally don't sit well here.

A bit of history for you my friend. We've been giving away free upgrades to our software since the mid 90s. There are people here who only bought TDS1 or TDS2 of us, and have since received a free upgrade to TDS3, even though it was a complete rewrite..." }- I do think throwing around legal threats is not appropriate CrownKing82, regardless whether they are well founded.
Wayne...you refer to the cases of customers that have no reason to be upset, and then generalize that case across a different set of customers. It's a logical flaw for one and even more important you are alienating a group of customers that are most vulnerable to leaving you...the new customers that just purchased your software and especially those that have purchased all of your products. Big mistake my friend. An even bigger mistake is to cast aside the legal ramifications of your actions as if they don't exist. Believe me...they are real and they are potentially serious. It doesn't take a lawyer to see that you are treading in some dangerous water with respect to the law.
-{ Quote: "...and we don't have to give away free upgrades..." }-You don't have to do anything, but you could be held legally liable if in the terms of the sales agreement, written, oral, explicit, or implied, you said you would.
-{ Quote: "TDS4 is the only upgrade we've ever been able to unfulfill in our entire history of software development, and our business has been established now for over 18 years." }-This is the only one that matters to some. It can take 18 years to gain loyalty and one day to lose it forever.
-{ Quote: "Perhaps you'd be happy if we just never offer free upgrades/updates anymore, as most companies do? It'll cost you more money, but at least we won't find ourselves in these rare situations if we're ever unable to release the program." }-Again you assume that they will remain customers. The only way it could cost them more money is if they decide to continue doing business with you and by the sound of things, that doesn't apply to everyone.
-{ Quote: "...there is no law preventing software developers from stopping development of their programs, I don't recall ever signing any contracts with you" }-There are many laws that govern such cases and it seems that a strong argument could be formed against your actions from severaly different angles...and you don't have to sign a contract to enter into one...Wayne sometimes you appear highly intelligent and other times...I'm not so sure.

[passing thru]

-{ Quote: "Starrob,
I'm envious, as TDS has prevented me from going on more than a 2-day holiday since Dec 1997." }-Hi Wayne,

I'm envious as well. No holidays for me since the Nov 1993, when I took over the family business. I took a lot of heat from everyone (family/board members/employees) in 1997 for eliminating a multi-decade product line. With profits and customer satisfaction now at historic highs (as a direct result of my decision), the critics are silent and hope their criticisms have been forgotten. As I said in my e-mail, I wish you the best of luck.

Nick

[richrf]

Hi,

This is a very difficult situation - and it is not at all amusing to me. The people at DiamondCS, over the years, have helped me out of very serious situations. They have been there when other vendors (who I have paid much more money to - e.g. Microsoft) were not. They have been good friends to me, and I do not abandon my friends when it gets rough - nor am I amused by any problems that they or their customers might be having right now.

I do not know anyone at DCS personally - and have only had a few emails with them over the years. However, they have always been there when I needed them - and I therefore stand by them when they need me. None of us are perfect. They could have abandoned me when I made "mistakes" (e.g. letting trojans in on my system). But they didn't. They were there to help. As am I now.

I believe that there exists sincere and understandable customer grievances. But I am not sitting back amuaing myself with the situation, because real lives are at stake. I hope that a fair resolution can be arrived at. I believe it is possible. I hope it happens.

Regards,
Rich

[tuatara]

@wayne,

For me it seems like a logical decision, and i also think,
that in the end it will be better for us (your customers).

It is very nice that you offer a PG or PE license for lic. TDS-3 users.

But is it not possible, for customers that bought a license for
ALL DCS PRODUCTS.

Lets say, the best customers, to give them some extra Discount in their
member's area for the first new license to buy?


I don't think it is fair when this 'BEST'customers, which have no use
for getting a 2nd PE or PG license end up with only 'having a cold shower'.

??? :-\

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Again, TDS is just one program, try to keep it in perspective and also think about the future because what happens today doesn't just affect tomorrow, but also years to come. Companies regularly discontinue products and replace them with newer, better ones. That is all that has happened here, and in an industry as dynamic as the software industry its rare for programs to last as long as TDS has. This is a natural process in every industry so it is not one which turns customers away (I speak also as a customer of other software businesses myself), as it shows customers that the business is evolving with the times and that if hard decisions need to be made then they will be if it's in the customers best interests. Working on nothing but TDS would be a poor business decision and potentially damaging for the business in the medium and long term, especially in an increasingly declining market such as anti-trojan, mainly due to improvements in anti-virus scanners, so it could leave us being unable to develop any software and I predict that various scanners will end up in that position. We've chosen the option that makes the most sense for everyone, as we will be able to provide a lot more benefits and software to our customers with the decision we've made. If we had've chosen to keep developing TDS then that's all our customers would ever get, and our ProcessGuard/Port Explorer/WormGuard customers will not and should not accept that. It's one or the other, we've simply chosen the option that will be most beneficial to our customers. People wouldn't be making emotional posts in this thread if they didn't feel strongly about our software, and to those people I say hold you chin up high because now we're free to make even more software for you! If you like TDS, you'll love what we've got coming up next.

On another note, in regards to the free PE/PG licenses we've offered, to those who already have PE and PG we're extending the offer so that you can have a free license generated for a friend (you may even choose to have them pay you half of your license cost). We obviously can't offer anything in regards to future software as that is one of the main things we've been criticised for in this thread, and we do listen!

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

-{ Quote: "Hi Wayne,

I'm envious as well. No holidays for me since the Nov 1993, when I took over the family business. I took a lot of heat from everyone (family/board members/employees) in 1997 for eliminating a multi-decade product line. With profits and customer satisfaction now at historic highs (as a direct result of my decision), the critics are silent and hope their criticisms have been forgotten. As I said in my e-mail, I wish you the best of luck.

Nick" }-

Hi Nick,
Thanks for sharing that, it's interesting to hear from somebody who has been in this situation before, and I'm happy to hear (but not surprised!) that it has all worked out well for both you and your customers. Big decisions often reap big rewards for all parties :)

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "@wayne,

For me it seems like a logical decision, and i also think,
that in the end it will be better for us (your customers).

It is very nice that you offer a PG or PE license for lic. TDS-3 users.

But is it not possible, for customers that bought a license for
ALL DCS PRODUCTS.

Lets say, the best customers, to give them some extra Discount in their
member's area for the first new license to buy?


I don't think it is fair when this 'BEST'customers, which have no use
for getting a 2nd PE or PG license end up with only 'having a cold shower'.

??? :-\" }-


Yes, the solution is so obvious.

Regards,
Rich

[CrownKing82]

-{ Quote: "CrownKing82,
However according to your position, no developer should ever offer any free upgrades for software until the software has been released, or face legal action? Legal action because of something that was offered as a free bonus? Sorry my friend but there is no law preventing software developers from stopping development of their programs, I don't recall ever signing any contracts with you, and your legal threats won't change anything so feel free to write to Jim McGinty - or anyone for that matter. It's your time not mine.

Regards,
Wayne" }-

I am sorry you feel that way Wayne. You asked what I expected… Nothing more than what you promised… It was you, after all, who made the promise. Very clearly stated. No fine print or disclaimers. It was a promise you kept making up to the last. You never said you were withdrawing the free software offers effective for all purchases made after a given date.

I pay for annual upgrades all the time. It was made clear from the beginning. Other software companies I do business with have changed policies over the years. Most have grandfathered long time user in base on the undertsanding that when the software was bought there would be free lifetime upgrades. Again, a critical issue here is you keeping the offer alive until you pulled the plug on TDS-3.

How can you justify taking peoples money on an empty promise (rhetorical question)? We both know this wasn’t a decision reached overnight. Many of us, me included, knew long ago TDS-4 wasn’t going to see the light of day. Those that stated it on open forums where called naysayers and shouted down. Many of those who supported you back then have egg on their collective faces right now and you are the one that put it there.

DCS is a mom and pop operation… the last one’s you would expect to do something like this. It is a matter of ethics. I am not threatening you with legal action. I have time neither the time or the desire. I am doing nothing other than advising Mr. McGinty’s office of what I feel may be some irregularities in the way this was handled. They, not me will make a determination regarding what, if anything, was done that was unfair to the consumer. That is where it should be decided. As far as how others feel about my position on this… they are entitled to think whatever they desire. Any adverse outcome in this matter is of your own doing.

In the final analysis it is the market place that is going to make or break you on this move. Wilders in your home turf and most of your supporters are here and most feel you can do know wrong. That is to be expected. But if you have been surfing the net, there aren’t a lot of warm fuzzy feeling over this. And it is only Monday.

As far as I am concerned I am finish with DCS. I will not do business with you again or recommend DCS to anyone under any circumstances. If I am in the minority; my feelings in this matter, will have, little if any impact on DCS. If, on a global bases your customer base feels much the same as I do and abandons DCS, then DCS will suffer their business demise by their own hand. It all comes down to that one word, ethics. If people perceive there is a clear lack of ethics by a business. Then they go elsewhere. You have too much of a niche market and too much growing competition to be shooting dice in the ethics department. There are too many other games around that haven’t had a cloud cast over them. In the final analysis that is all you had to sustain you. And now that may be gone. Time will tell…

We have both had our say… you have heard me and I have heard you. As you can see I don’t post here very often at all. I have too many other things going on, including a lot of travel, and don’t have the time other then to check for new releases.

In closing I want to thank you for the opportunity to state my feelings and position on your support forum. I do realize it was a courtesy you didn’t have to extend to me.

I wish you well Wayne.

[worldcitizen]

A lot of the people here have spent hours and hours of their time voluntarily helping others troubleshoot DCS programs, effectively taking a huge tech support burden off DCS and it's very regrettable that this is the thanks they get. Not only have they bought all DCS programs but helped out so much and now stand to lose TDS3, TDS 4 as well as the free upgrade which was promised.

The loyalty and patience shown by all in waiting so painstakingly for the new release only to be hit with the fact that not only will it not come out but the promised upgrade has basically been torn up and shredded is a huge blow and those who have not had any upgrades at all will be wondering if they will ever in their lifetime get a free upgrade from DCS.

I think that some people here might feel hurt that the focus is shifting more towards selling new programs without this issue having first been resolved.

The atmosphere between DCS and their customers is not good at all for the launch of new software after what has transpired so far.

Dave

[Mr.Blaze]

::) Am i allowed to speak my mind or will this thread be locked dowen and deleted?

Tds means the world to me because with it i feel safe.

I dont have to be an expert it finds trojans and kills them.

your other software is completly useless to me yeah it can say here is this and that but i cant do anything but temporarly fix the problem

and i dont like nastys in my computer even if pg and port can shut them down it still dosent solve the problem

with tds you can kill the trojan

your other products worked great with tds because if something new was trying to acess the net or something i never saw befor i could shut it down ask advice and if it where anasty you could update tds and i could kill it.

your other products arnt as valuble to me as a good AT

if you had tds for at least a full year then you got your moneys worth

but for those who had it for less then 12 months should get there money back.

i dont think its right you guys gut tds 4 something that we been waiting for for 2 to 3 years for then take the good stuff out and re sell it to us as diffrent programs thats F'd

your other products have become useless to me since theres noway to kill the thing controling my pc i have to be a damn near expert to know if something is bad or not tds was better cause it find and kill took all the guess work out.

i personaly wouldnt recomend frinds to a company that would do this.

yearly subscription of 10 dollers for tds is fair to me because the damn thing almost cost 50 dollers or more for AT thats high.

I need a program that kills nastys not one that says you may have one heres a temporary fix blah

[Atomas31]

-{ Quote: "@wayne,

For me it seems like a logical decision, and i also think,
that in the end it will be better for us (your customers).

It is very nice that you offer a PG or PE license for lic. TDS-3 users.

But is it not possible, for customers that bought a license for
ALL DCS PRODUCTS.

Lets say, the best customers, to give them some extra Discount in their
member's area for the first new license to buy?


I don't think it is fair when this 'BEST'customers, which have no use
for getting a 2nd PE or PG license end up with only 'having a cold shower'.
" }-

I totally agree with what Tuatara has written. In fact, I expect nothing less than what Tuatara has suggest for those of us who already have all your software (WG, PG, PE and TDS-3)!!!

Atomas31

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

CrownKing, I'm sorry to hear that you won't be using our software any more because of our discontinuation of TDS, but that's entirely your choice. I understand that you're disappointed about not being able to upgrade to TDS4 for free like we offered, but I hope you can understand that programs are regularly conceived and discontinued, this is nothing new at all, and the fact of the matter is that software and the security industry in particular is very dynamic and changing from day to day, and if we don't evolve with it then we're not doing our job. We only made that bonus offer because we've always offered free upgrades with all of our software as we like to offer as much value for money as possible (hence the extremely low prices on our software), and I know that nobody bought TDS simply because of an offer for a future program which didn't even exist in public, they bought the program for the program. TDS is such a massive time/resource/financial burden that it was even hampering its own development. There's just no way we can continue to evolve with the times like our customers demand by staying with TDS, because it was sucking us down a hole to a stage where it was nearly impossible for us to release further software to our customers, and that's why we have customers - because of our software, and even the people who are the most critical about our decision are being vocal because they like and use our software, so they will benefit the most, even though they might fail to understand that now. All will become clear in the coming months.

[Notok]

Personally I'll be withholding any judgement until we know what's going to happen with the next product. It doesn't do anyone any good to jump to any conclusions.

What I would like to know is how DCS feels about signature based apps in general. Do you think that it's all going towards generic protection? Or just how you see security software going in the future..

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

-{ Quote: "I totally agree with what Tuatara has written. In fact, I expect nothing less than what Tuatara has suggest for those of us who already have all your software (WG, PG, PE and TDS-3)!!!
Atomas31" }-

As already explained we have extended the offer for those who already have TDS/PE/PG for a further license for your friend, at our expense. This isn't an offer that you'd get from any other company, but not many companies even offer free upgrades in the first place so I'm sure you'll find this a more than satisfactory considering it's something for nothing.

We are still as yet undecided if we'll continue offering free upgrades for our future software, as despite our best intentions in increasing the value for the customer we have actually received more criticism about that than just about anything else in regards to this decision about TDS - if we wound the clock back and never offered free upgrades we wouldn't be receiving this criticism, so it's quite disappointing from my personal perspective.

[tempnexus]

-{ Quote: " Quoteing Kevin: I wouldn't say "huge" in terms of our paid commitments to several governments (curiously not our *OWN*, they believe in SYMANTEC)" }-

Yeah I hope you mean the great U.S. gov since I know that they are Symantec lovers and boy I mean come on! I work on some sensitive stuff and I really don't feel comfortable haveing Symantec icon on my desktop and believe me the PC I am on does not have BoClean or anything else installed. Also I know that they have some great server filters but I bet they are also symantec! :) So there is no 2ndary defense system and the things I am doing is just scarey to think that they would trust them!
Well by the end of this week I being relocated to D.C. complex so I would like to see what they have there! But I bet it's Symantec! :)


P.S.
So I assume that File Scanning via BoClean is a pipedream for now?

[Mr.Blaze]

HEY ISNT TDS 4 IN BETA SINCE THERES NO MORE CONTINUEING IT SHOULDNT WE GET THE BETA

with the understanding there no suport

lot of us did buy tds 3 to get are hands on tds 4 because it was going to be so cool


you said it ws nearly finished and i know peole have been testing it why cant we who where promised 4 play with it


any hoot i do have one finaly request can we get the last data base file for tds

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "::) Am i allowed to speak my mind or will this thread be locked dowen and deleted?

Tds means the world to me because with it i feel safe.

I dont have to be an expert it finds trojans and kills them.

your other software is completly useless to me yeah it can say here is this and that but i cant do anything but temporarly fix the problem ...

I need a program that kills nastys not one that says you may have one heres a temporary fix blah" }-

Hi Mr. Blaze,

First, I would like to say that I entirely understand your comments regarding TDS-3 and your dissatisfaction.

In regards, to the usefulness of ProcessGuard, and other products like it, I think you may be underestimating their usefulness. The beauty behind these type of products, commonly called Intrusion Protection Systems (IPS), is that they assist in preventing the malware (of all types) from ever installing (instantiating) themselves on the computer to begin with. Therefore there is nothing to clean. Preventing a robber from ever getting into a home is far easier than trying to chase them down afterwards and recovering the stolen goods.

I am not suggesting that you consider installing ProcessGuard (or any other) if you feel it is not appropriate for your situation. However, it may be worth your while to investigate these capabilities more thoroughly. As you may have observed and read in this thread and others, the trend of the industry as a whole is toward Prevention (via behavioral screen) as opposed to Detection/Deletion. I think it is well worth some study.

Regards,
Rich

[Atomas31]

-{ Quote: "As already explained we have extended the offer for those who already have TDS/PE/PG for a further license for your friend, at our expense. This isn't an offer that you'd get from any other company, but not many companies even offer free upgrades in the first place so I'm sure you'll find this a more than satisfactory considering it's something for nothing." }-

I have no interest in having a license for my friend and I sure hope you don't expect me to paid full price for your new software wich include TDS-4 technologies?!?

So, IMO, I think what Tuatara has suggest is a lot more reasonnable and make a lot more sense than what you offer for those already having all your software...

Atomas31

[Mikkey]

Wayne.

You are not listening to your customers. You offered TDS4 for free to existing TDS3 customers. A complete rewrite! So offer a free copy of this new program you are about to release that is actually TDS4 with a new name but no scanner. There's dishonesty here. It sits very bad.

[Jooske]

Hi there Blazey! still babysitting the mouse? *puppy*

Don't worry, leave TDS on your system and try to keep the system clean as ever. In case of suspicious files upload them at jotti's or KAV online scanner and see what they say, you might like to look for a free scan solution for the time being, till all gets clear with the new releases.
You got lot of security education over the years, as TDS kept us in the drivers seat to find possible malware and we had to decide and google for info about the alarms which we would not have had with automatic cleansing programs.
I think we learned a lot more about our systems this way gradually.
Now at we will be stimulated more to look seriously at ProcessGuard and the other programs. I think it sounds really exiting preventive software with no need for daily database updates and scanning etc.

[dallen]

I agree that it is only fair to withhold judgement until we get to see how Wayne decides to handle the situation. However, it is not fair to expect us to wait to see how he is going to handle it...after all we were told to wait patiently for TDS-4 and look where that got us. I have sent an E-mail like we were instructed requesting a refund. Depending on the response I will then decide if I will ever do business with DiamondCS again.

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Notok,
-{ Quote: "What I would like to know is how DCS feels about signature based apps in general. Do you think that it's all going towards generic protection? Or just how you see security software going in the future.." }-
That's a good question indeed, and we could literally devote another thread to it ... (lets not) :). It's not something I want to debate as I have too much on my plate already, but I'll give a few brief opinions...

I believe there'll be a place for the leading signature-scanning apps (KAV springs to mind to name just one) for quite some time to come, it's quite difficult to predict exactly how long they'll be useful for - we may still be using them in fifty or so years from now but I don't think anyone can say for sure at this stage. However, the fact is that there are more and more viruses/trojans/etc (malware) being released on a daily basis, and the growth rate of these releases is on a steady incline. Sure, our PCs are getting bigger and better so we've now got more memory to accomodate all these signatures, but there are simply too many now for analysts to keep up. Thorough analysis takes time, and with so many malware samples being released (and non-malware samples that still need analysis to determine if they're safe) you need more and more analysts, which means higher subscription fees, and eventually anti-virus scanning could become too expensive for most people to maintain. The anti-trojan market is a niche market much smaller than the anti-virus market, and it is declining due to the anti-trojan improvements made in anti-virus scanners, so I see anti-trojan/anti-spyware style scanners becoming less predominant, with anti-virus scanners taking up the helm again, and as long as their business model has a subscription system to pay for the ongoing research then those businesses should be fine to continue developing nothing but their scanners. However they're still in the same situation as us in that the demands of developing and maintaining scanners of adequate quality (and there are so much that modern scanners need to do, unpacking for example) prevent them from doing anything else. It's already common knowledge that signature scanning should never be used as the only security defence - it should be used alongside other programs, because they're not failsafe, and for example it's well known that executables can be easily modified to evade the detection of scanners. So anti-virus scanners certainly have their use and a place in the current security toolkit, at least in 2005 anyway, but their future is uncertain and they will always need to be backed-up by other security software. Anti-trojan scanners had more of a place when they initially came out in the mid-late 90s, but over the last couple of years in particular anti-virus scanners have picked up their game with trojans, and many AVs are now more competent than ATs when it comes to trojans. Like I said, the software industry (and particularly security software) is extremely dynamic. :)

Anyway that's just my opinion, I certainly don't want to get into a debate about scanners as that's beyond the scope of this thread but I hope that answers your question.

Best regards,
Wayne

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

-{ Quote: "I have sent an E-mail like we were instructed requesting a refund." }-
Dallen, you purchased and have been using the software since February 2003. Now more than two years later you decide you want a refund?

-{ Quote: "So offer a free copy of this new program you" }-
mikkey you say we're not listening to our customers, but one of the things that our customers have complained about the most in this thread is offering a free license to a program we haven't released. As we do listen to our customers we will not do that again.

Best regards,
Wayne

[richrf]

Hi,

-{ Quote: "Anyway that's just my opinion, I certainly don't want to get into a debate about scanners as that's beyond the scope of this thread but I hope that answers your question.-{ Quote: "

Yes, basically, from a security point of view, it is far, far more prefarable to keep the "bad guys" from entering into the "security perimeter", as opposed to tracking them down once they are in. Now the question is, how many "gates' must be guarded and how to guard them. Hopefully Microsoft at least begins to address this issue to some degree. If each new release of Windows adds more "open doors" that have to be watched, it makes security exponentially more difficult - however it does create a "marketplace". ;)

Ultimately, Windows has to go. But probably this will not happen in the forseeable future.

Rich

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "mikkey you say we're not listening to our customers, but one of the things that our customers have complained about the most in this thread is offering a free license to a program we haven't released. As we do listen to our customers we will not do that again.

Best regards,
Wayne" }-

Wayne, what you can easily say is "If there is a new product, then current customers, who do not avail themselves of our current offer, will be offered a discount." The choice would then be with the customers - and I think this is very fair.

Regards,
Rich

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

-{ Quote: "Now the question is, how many "gates' must be guarded and how to guard them." }-
How long is a piece of string? :) Think of your body - it is open to a variety of attacks, and there are various layers of defence that you can add - vitamins, exercise, body protection etc. The more you add the more secure you'll be, albeit at the expense of some convenience. Computers are no different. Windows may not be the most secure OS, but it is arguably one of the most convenient which is why it is so popular. The most secure OS is nowhere near as convenient as Windows, so it's up to you and your needs as to which OS you use. It's quite a challenge securing something without inconveniencing the user, and sometimes compromises must be made to find something of a balance.

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

-{ Quote: "Wayne, what you can easily say is "If there is a new product, then current customers, who do not avail themselves of our current offer, will be offered a discount." The choice would then be with the customers - and I think this is very fair." }-
If only it was as easy as that ... :)

[dallen]

-{ Quote: "Dallen, you purchased and have been using the software since February 2003. Now more than two years later you decide you want a refund?" }-I purchased TDS-3, the update service, and did so under the terms that I would be recieving and upgrade to versions 4 of both TDS and WG. The agreement has been breached on your end. You did not fulfill the terms of the agreement and I want a partial refund as compensation for the breach. I'm not demanding a full refund which I am legally entitled to.-{ Quote: "mikkey you say we're not listening to our customers, but one of the things that our customers have complained about the most in this thread is offering a free license to a program we haven't released. As we do listen to our customers we will not do that again.

Best regards,
Wayne" }-We aren't complaining about the offer of a free license Wayne...we are complaining about the promise of a free license and the fail to fulfill that promise. You aren't listening to your customers.

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Dallen, there was no contract, it is called a free offer - a bonus which we didn't have to make. Although we were unable to fulfull this one single free offer (unlike every other free offer we've made, at our expense), most people here are able to understand that its simply not possible, that we've made this decision in their best interests as it will benefit them the most, and that you haven't lost anything nor has it cost you anything, all youre complaining about is something you didnt get for free - something which costs me time and money. If we didn't make free offers then people here would've paid three times by now for ProcessGuard, three times for Port Explorer, and so on - is that how you would like it??? And yes I have read every post in this thread, as well as the thread you recently tried to start to stir things up, which Admins sensibly locked given your history.

[richrf]

-{ Quote: "If only it was as easy as that ... :)" }-

Hi Wayne,

Well it sounds like there are additional factors that I am not aware of. Unfortunately, if your hands are tied, then you will either have to live with the headaches, or do what I did - get out of the software business. I can assure you that the option that I took, has plenty of life rewards. ;) Good luck!

Warm regards,
Rich

[Starrob]

Which is what I have been saying....there will be Anti-malware scanners, IDS/Generic/proactive protection and specialized security programs.

Part of the problem with your decision to discontinue TDS-3 is I can tell that many people are stuck in the AV/AT/AS/Firewall world and that world is going away. The people that have that mindset still want a scanner and it is hard for them to change because for so long they have been told by DCS that TDS-3 is number one. They feel that going to another scanner is a step down...If they only knew. I feel that TDS-3 was already surpassed by KAV and also one or two other AT's.

TDS-4 would have battled in a limited declining market with several other AT's that could have matched TDS-4 performance or did better. I think the gap that TDS-3 had over other AT scanners would not have been repeated in TDS-4. Other AT companies had closed the gap by a lot in the last year and in one case, I feel one surpassed.

I believe TDS-4 would have took the lead again if it had been released but you would have had at least one company so close on your heels that it would not have been worth the effort.

The future in security software will be somewhat different. I don't know 100% accuracy the exact future but ALL software developers better take notice.

I think the main gripe now with DCS is compensation for ending TDS-3 for customers that bought within the last year when the advertising was BUY TDS-3 now in order to get TDS-4....or the advertising had that implied effect. Good luck in solving that situation.



Starrob




-{ Quote: "Notok,

That's a good question indeed, and we could literally devote another thread to it ... (lets not) :). It's not something I want to debate as I have too much on my plate already, but I'll give a few brief opinions...

I believe there'll be a place for the leading signature-scanning apps (KAV springs to mind to name just one) for quite some time to come, it's quite difficult to predict exactly how long they'll be useful for - we may still be using them in fifty or so years from now but I don't think anyone can say for sure at this stage. However, the fact is that there are more and more viruses/trojans/etc (malware) being released on a daily basis, and the growth rate of these releases is on a steady incline. Sure, our PCs are getting bigger and better so we've now got more memory to accomodate all these signatures, but there are simply too many now for analysts to keep up. Thorough analysis takes time, and with so many malware samples being released (and non-malware samples that still need analysis to determine if they're safe) you need more and more analysts, which means higher subscription fees, and eventually anti-virus scanning could become too expensive for most people to maintain. The anti-trojan market is a niche market much smaller than the anti-virus market, and it is declining due to the anti-trojan improvements made in anti-virus scanners, so I see anti-trojan/anti-spyware style scanners becoming less predominant, with anti-virus scanners taking up the helm again, and as long as their business model has a subscription system to pay for the ongoing research then those businesses should be fine to continue developing nothing but their scanners. However they're still in the same situation as us in that the demands of developing and maintaining scanners of adequate quality (and there are so much that modern scanners need to do, unpacking for example) prevent them from doing anything else. It's already common knowledge that signature scanning should never be used as the only security defence - it should be used alongside other programs, because they're not failsafe, and for example it's well known that executables can be easily modified to evade the detection of scanners. So anti-virus scanners certainly have their use and a place in the current security toolkit, at least in 2005 anyway, but their future is uncertain and they will always need to be backed-up by other security software. Anti-trojan scanners had more of a place when they initially came out in the mid-late 90s, but over the last couple of years in particular anti-virus scanners have picked up their game with trojans, and many AVs are now more competent than ATs when it comes to trojans. Like I said, the software industry (and particularly security software) is extremely dynamic. :)

Anyway that's just my opinion, I certainly don't want to get into a debate about scanners as that's beyond the scope of this thread but I hope that answers your question.

Best regards,
Wayne" }-

[Starrob]

From what Kevin has implied Hasta La Vista and IE 7.0 appears to be a security disaster in the waiting. I guess we will see about that in a year or two.


Starrob



-{ Quote: "Hi,

-{ Quote: "Anyway that's just my opinion, I certainly don't want to get into a debate about scanners as that's beyond the scope of this thread but I hope that answers your question.-{ Quote: "

Yes, basically, from a security point of view, it is far, far more prefarable to keep the "bad guys" from entering into the "security perimeter", as opposed to tracking them down once they are in. Now the question is, how many "gates' must be guarded and how to guard them. Hopefully Microsoft at least begins to address this issue to some degree. If each new release of Windows adds more "open doors" that have to be watched, it makes security exponentially more difficult - however it does create a "marketplace". ;)

Ultimately, Windows has to go. But probably this will not happen in the forseeable future.

Rich" }-

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Starrob, yes the dynamic nature of the software/computer industry is a good one for customers as there's always new and better products coming out, but it makes for some rough waters for developers as you never know what'll be just around the corner, but customers don't really have to worry about that, nor should they. But yes predicting future trends with security software is something of a Nostradamus party trick, and probably a futile one at that ... :)

btw ...
-{ Quote: "From what Kevin has implied Hasta La Vista and IE 7.0 appears to be a security disaster in the waiting." }-
This again relates to what I was saying before - the more features added into a program like IE (usually added for user convenience), the more complicated the code becomes ... the more code\more complex, the greater the potential for vulnerabilities.

richrf,
-{ Quote: "Unfortunately, if your hands are tied, then you will either have to live with the headaches, or do what I did - get out of the software business." }-
Or option #3 - make changes, make the big decisions, and progress forward. :)

[dallen]

-{ Quote: "Dallen, there was no contract, it is called a free offer - a bonus which we didn't have to make. Although we were unable to fulfull this one single free offer (unlike every other free offer we've made, at our expense), most people here are able to understand that its simply not possible, that we've made this decision in their best interests as it will benefit them the most, and that you haven't lost anything nor has it cost you anything, all youre complaining about is something you didnt get for free - something which costs me time and money. If we didn't make free offers then people here would've paid three times by now for ProcessGuard, three times for Port Explorer, and so on - is that how you would like it??? " }-I am done posting here. I am done doing business with DiamondCS. However, I am not done with this issue. I am going to see how far I can push this Wayne.-{ Quote: "And yes I have read every post in this thread, as well as the thread you recently tried to start to stir things up, which Admins sensibly locked given your history." }-I wasn't trying to "stir things up." I wanted to get a sample of the opinions of your customers. Something you should try. Now I'm going to stir things up.

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

-{ Quote: "I am going to see how far I can push this Wayne. I wasn't trying to "stir things up." Now I'm going to stir things up." }-

That's quite mature of you. No response warranted.

[Jooske]

A little moderative question:
Is it possible for some people to cut their quoting to the part they're really reacting on, as it saves us lots of scrolling and makes clear what you're really reacting on.
Thanks a lot in name of the people with sore mouses from all that scrolling! 8)

[worldcitizen]

-{ Quote: "As already explained we have extended the offer for those who already have TDS/PE/PG for a further license for your friend, at our expense." }-

Wayne,

I sent you an email requesting a PG license for my sister and will take you up on that offer thanks, but losing TDS 4 was a blow and I hope you do come up with something as good if not better because I always had TDS 3 installed in case I needed it. Although that wasn't often, if I do get hit what is there I can use now? I hope the new program will help because I want to have protection against the worst Trojans. I do have Kaspersky and so far have had no problems but if I do get hit what will I do without TDS 3 or 4?

Anyway thanks for the offer and I think that we all need to try to be a bit flexible here. Many might be able to accept an extra license for a friend or relative and if not maybe then a larger discount on a new program.

I was upset at 1st but then I realised how shaky a free upgrade policy can get and maybe wisdom and hindsight should introduce yearly subscriptions from now on because it is very hard to continue to keep a promise made years ago. That's just placing yourself in a strait jacket without any room to move and the minute you want to move you get cornered by a policy made way back that obviously needs to change.

Personally, Wayne what I feel I lost most was TDS 3 because now having bought the program it's now useless for what I bought it for - scanning for trojans. Do you recommend I buy another AT to protect me from trojans? What should I do now for trojans? What should we all do to protect ourselves from trojans now that TDS 3 is discontinued?

Regards

Dave

[Triple Helix]

-{ Quote: "As already explained we have extended the offer for those who already have TDS/PE/PG for a further license for your friend, at our expense. This isn't an offer that you'd get from any other company, but not many companies even offer free upgrades in the first place so I'm sure you'll find this a more than satisfactory considering it's something for nothing.

We are still as yet undecided if we'll continue offering free upgrades for our future software, as despite our best intentions in increasing the value for the customer we have actually received more criticism about that than just about anything else in regards to this decision about TDS - if we wound the clock back and never offered free upgrades we wouldn't be receiving this criticism, so it's quite disappointing from my personal perspective." }-

I agree with you Wayne and you and Gavin have my full support!! As I asked Diamond CS to give my Brother inlaw a Licence for Port Explorer and you did without a Question and that is what I call Customer Service!!

-{ Quote: "Hi,No problem, will send off the members login now

Best regards,
Gavin" }-


And Good luck in your Furture Endeavours!!

Cheers,

Daniel

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Well this thread has been left to go on for many days now, as you would probably expect from a record-breaking thread ... :). Everything that could have been discussed has been discussed and we thank everyone for your support, thoughts and questions. Anyway as the thread topic has been exhausted it's now time to close the thread so we can all get back to work, as like I said we have some exciting things ahead and we want to get them out to you as soon as possible! If you have a question regarding other anti-trojan software please ask in the aptly-named Other Anti-Trojan Software forum.

Once again we encourage TDS3 users to take advantage of our free PE or PG license offer (as hundreds of you have already done, judging by the emails!), because how often do you get offered a free program? :) And please dont hesitate to email sales@diamondcs.com.au if you have any queries or if you've already registered both of those programs, but we can only offer this for a limited time so don't delay.

Best regards,
Wayne