Forum Morals

[Jimbob1989]

I am not sure what the view is of the forum staff, however it would be interesting to know what the rules are and what the members views are.

OK, here is what I want to know:

If a guest or member arrives at Wilders and he has security issues due to an illegal act he has commited such as piracy, in mind that millions of people do so all the time. Should we help him/her with their problem or not?

Jimbob

[Paul Wilders]

Well - no offence intended - but our rules are very explicit; see our TOS. It might sound a bit harsh, but regardless the views from our members our staff will decide wether something is permitted or not in case the TOS isn't specific enough.

regards.

paul

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "Well - no offence intended - but our rules are very explicit; see our TOS. It might sound a bit harsh, but regardless the views from the view from our members our staff will decide wether something is permitted or not in case the TOS isn't specific enough.

regards.

paul" }-

So we ignore the user untill a decission has been made by a member of the forum staff?

Jimbob

[Paul Wilders]

-{ Quote: "So we ignore the user untill a decission has been made by a member of the forum staff?

Jimbob" }-

This is just one example from most probably many; in case we would (try to) put all possibilities in our TOS, prepare for a day's reading. Thus, the TOS is covering the most important issues that need to be addressed.

For that reason I answered the first time the way I did; after this example another one is easily posted.

As for your question: Our staff is monitoring this board as best as possible and will act and/or interfere when they feel there's reason for doing so. Apart from that, one can inform staff in case of doubts. Finally: we can't prevent anyone addressing a post, and have no intention to do so either. Staff will interfere if necessary, with or without a 'user alert'.

regards.

paul

[Jimbob1989]

Thanks for clearing that up Paul.

Jimbob

[Pieter_Arntz]

My rule of thumb:

As long as no-one else will be able to repeat the illegal action from our posts, I will try to help cure the consequences, but only if that is legal.

For example. If you are infected with spyware due to installing KaZaa, I will help remove the spyware along with KaZaa and tell you where you can find WinMX.
I will not tell you where you can find KaZaaLite.

No-one has ever told me I was doing it wrong, sofar.... ;)

Regards,

Pieter

[MikeBCda]

You've probably seen, both in the TOS and in the actions of admins and mods, that posting links to warez sites and similar places is a flat no-no.

On the other hand, if you pick up what appears to be a previously unknown bug from such a site and the mod or admin feels indulgent and wants to try to help, he/she may invite you to send them the addy via PM (not in a posting here) so they can check it out themselves, often with tools and other resources, incuding lots of experience, that you might not have access to yourself.

(Whew, that's gotta be a new record for a run-on sentence. :-[ )

[Jimbob1989]

:lurking: I don't purposefully find loop holes in the rules... honest :lurking:

Jimbob

[spy1]

It's a completely black-and-white issue for me.

If someone's needing help due to a problem with something that they've stolen - be it a program, a song, software or a movie, or from d/l'ing stuff to crack with, or anything from a warez site - then they certainly don't deserve help.

Stealing is wrong - why reward it by helping someone out who's suffering the consequences of doing so?

In my mind, it puts the helper's (and the website's) seal-of-approval on the theft.

I can hear the "but they'll learn the error of their ways if we help them!" already. In a miniscule percentage of cases - perhaps.

You did ask for member views, Jimbob. That's mine. Pete

[mercurie]

I think Paul has addressed this well, but I would like to add this. TOS are the laws here that should be followed. Just take some time and review them from time to time to make sure you do not violate. In fact I am a little over due. The staff are the judges and their rulings should be final.

Remember this too it is always the right thing to do if you find you have done something wrong to say, "I will never do that again."

If you follow my signature it will keep you out of a lot of trouble friend. ;)

[bigc73542]

Paul and spy1 have pretty well described my feelings on the subject, any more questions? check the TOS here (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/TOS-Privacy.html)


bigc

[Jimbob1989]

But I hope you can see how we could easily end up in a moral dilema. Millions of people break copyright laws all the time and in the process can cause themselves problems, through the methods they use

Jimbob

[dog]

LOL ... I noticed mIRC on your desktop JB ... are you just feeling things out in advance of something? ;D

Someone's Desktop :lurking: (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=325943&postcount=455)


:lurking: *puppy* :lurking:

[bigbuck]

-{ Quote: "LOL ... I noticed mIRC on your desktop JB ... are you just feeling things out in advance of something? ;D

Someone's Desktop :lurking: (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=325943&postcount=455)


:lurking: *puppy* :lurking:" }-
;) ;) ;) ;)

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "LOL ... I noticed mIRC on your desktop JB ... are you just feeling things out in advance of something?" }-

??? What do you mean? feeling things out?

Jimbob

[bigbuck]

-{ Quote: "??? What do you mean? feeling things out?

Jimbob" }- He means..."testing the waters" JB.

[spy1]

-{ Quote: "But I hope you can see how we could easily end up in a moral dilema." }-

Jimbob - There is no moral dilemma (although there is a lack of morals dilemma on the part of the person who's experiencing problems due to their illegal and/or immoral behavior) for un-involved parties.


-{ Quote: "Millions of people break copyright laws all the time and in the process can cause themselves problems, through the methods they use

Jimbob" }-

That's exactly the point, Jimbob. Whatever problem they've caused themselves by theft (using a cracked program or by d/l'ing copywritten material that contained some "extra's") are probably the only consequences they'll suffer for the theft to begin with.

By helping them solve whatever problem they've caused themselves, you (or we, or the website itself) become party to and place a seal of approval on the theft itself - and that's not right.

I've seen people come in here bragging and snickering about having a problem due to theft - and expecting help with it as a matter of course. It flat stuns me that they would automatically assume that we would share their twisted values.

Excuses on their part don't cut it, either. No one's going to tell me that they don't know that the copy of the latest version of a software that they d/l'ed on a P2P network - or a copywritten song, movie or game (to avoid paying for it) is theft . It's a cop-out or a flat-out lie and an insult to anyone's intelligence. If they are actually stupid enough not to know, then they shouldn't be on the Internet to start with.

The question is totally simple - do you (or we) want to help thieves to not suffer the consequences of their actions?

I don't - and if you do, you might want to ponder upon what that tells you about yourself. Pete

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "The Business Software Alliance announced today their latest estimation of usage of illegally copied software. According to BSA, globally 36% of the software used is pirated. In the European Union the number was just a percent higher at 37%, while in the USA the estimation is significantly lower at 22%." }-
-{ Quote: " Q1. How many people had been downloading music files in 2003 (any Peer-to-Peer platform)?

A1. 81.5M of people, which corresponds to 4.98% of the Internet users in the World. The best P2P penetration rate was in Spain with 31% of population connected to the Internet. Other top countries were France (xx%), Belgium (26%), Venezuela (25%), Canada (23%), Argentina (22%), Netherlands (21%), Israel (19%), United States (19%), Singapore (13%), Germany (17%), Austria (16%), Morocco (14%), Portugal (12%), Sweden (10%), Mexico (8%), United Kingdom (7%), Australia (6%)..." }-

I think some people are somewhat diluded in thinking that Piracy is a small problem which very few people take part in. Do you think that everyone who gets illegal software or media off the internet realises the entire extent of their actions? I think not.

Jimbob

[spy1]

Regardless of how many people are doing it, it's still wrong (sheer numbers of people doing illegal things don't make doing illegal things right ).

Whether or not "everyone who gets illegal software or media off the internet realises the entire extent of their actions?" is neither the point nor the excuse you're trying to make it out to be.

Ignorance of the law has never been a justification for breaking the law - nor does it serve as a defense against being punished - at least not in this country.

Un-intended consequences are (and should be ) solely the problem of the offender. No one else needs to feel sorry for, or attempt to help, them.

Maybe if people got more aware of the possible "consequences" of their actions to start with and developed a set of solid values somewhere along the way, the Internet would be a much better place.

Self-discipline would probably have gone a long way towards preventing the government from intrusively trying to become everyone's baby-sitter, too. Pete

[Jimbob1989]

And Pete, would your response be the same if it was a relative or close friend who was asking you for help after commiting such crimes?

Jimbob

[spy1]

Of course. Pete

[Primrose]

-{ Quote: "And Pete, would your response be the same if it was a relative or close friend who was asking you for help after commiting such crimes?

Jimbob" }-

You bet it would...and I stand the same ground on that as Pete...knowing full well that is how he also views the situation as it applies to his standards and how he rears his children.

Different stroke for different folks..but you still can draw the line in your own life. To your ownself be true.

[AJohn]

I dont care, I will help them as long as they havent killed anybody, if my help is somehow not wanted mod can delete :D

Besides, people can Always lie about why they need to know this/that, so mise well help them when they are honest...

[mercurie]

Piracy: to plunder; to reproduce reguardless of copyright. Dictionary definition. Just a really short version of what I think Pete said. Come on fellow....Creature Jimbob I worry about you when you get like this. ::) :(

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "I dont care, I will help them as long as they havent killed anybody, if my help is somehow not wanted mod can delete :D

Besides, people can Always lie about why they need to know this/that, so mise well help them when they are honest..." }-

I think my view is pretty much like like AJohn's. In my mind piracy is something that eventually a lot of people are going to have to accept, unless certain changes are made, as many people take part in piracy on many different scales and levels.

However, of course we can not be seen to be supporting piracy in anyway, which is a slight problem. I know when I mention the word piracy, lots of people imagine these people as thiefs, but we all know that is not true, just about anyone can take part in piracy, and a lot of people do.

My view is this, if someone comes to me and tells me that they have a problem because of downloading a little ilegal music or software, I Will help them to fix their PC, however like many of you, I will not tell others where to get illegal music, software and so on. However, it seems no one who may think the same, would be able to do so in public.

Jimbob

[nadirah]

Pirated VCD sales is very popular in Singapore. The police have nabbed a lot of people selling these.

[bigbuck]

-{ Quote: "Piracy: to plunder; to reproduce reguardless of copyright. Dictionary definition. Just a really short version of what I think Pete said. Come on fellow....Creature Jimbob I worry about you when you get like this. ::) :(" }- Don't worry about JB..... He's just posting for the sake of posting at the moment!

-{ Quote: "I have been set the challenge to have a post count of at least 1000 by Christmas day." }-

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "Don't worry about JB..... He's just posting for the sake of posting at the moment!" }-

actually BigBuck, as you know reasonably well, previously in life, I have been involved in a lot of cheating. I have seen a lot of piracy.

Jimbob

[bigbuck]

-{ Quote: "actually BigBuck, as you know reasonably well, previously in life, I have been involved in a lot of cheating. I have seen a lot of piracy.

Jimbob" }- Ahoy! Me hearty!!

[nadirah]

-{ Quote: "Ahoy! Me hearty!!" }-
Arrrrrrrrrr.....

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "Ahoy! Me hearty!!" }-

Thank you for that BigBuck, this thread was getting a little too serious. Thanks for the light hearted joke.

Jimbob

[Oremina]

spy1, Paul Wilders, Peter Arntz, mercurie and Primrose.

(Hope I haven't missed anybody)..

Absolutely. Theft is theft is theft is theft.


And Jimbob1989, I don't doubt that you have the brains to know it..(you are still a fair way off that 1,000 mark...don't think you'll make it.) ;)

[Bubba]

-{ Quote: "In my mind piracy is something that eventually a lot of people are going to have to accept" }-I totally agree Jimboy....and it will happen for some of us....when Hell freezes over >:(

Morals young man....Morals 8)

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "...And Jimbob1989, I don't doubt that you have the brains to know it..(you are still a fair way off that 1,000 mark...don't think you'll make it.) ;)" }-

You will have to post a picture to show us the expression on your face when I proove you wrong ;D

Jimbob

[Oremina]

-{ Quote: "You will have to post a picture to show us the expression on your face when I proove you wrong ;D

Jimbob" }-

Couldn't do that, it would crack your monitor screen....I look worse than Bubba's avatar. ;D

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "Couldn't do that, it would crack your monitor screen....I look worse than Bubba's avatar. ;D" }-

I'll go and prepare my thank you speech ;D

Jimbob

[big ed]

-{ Quote: "

Absolutely. Theft is theft is theft is theft.


And Jimbob1989, I don't doubt that you have the brains to know it..(you are still a fair way off that 1,000 mark...don't think you'll make it.) ;)" }-

Unfortunately some people have a pretty slanted view on what the definition of "theft" is.

Play on, big ed

PS I'm still trying to figure out what the big deal is about post count.

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "PS I'm still trying to figure out what the big deal is about post count." }-

This might not be the case, however moderator's are often decided on the rate at which they post as long as they are of good enough quality. Some feel that the number of posts resembles how good you are at the subject(s) being discussed in the forum.

Personally, I have too much time free and so often spend a little too much time posting in forums and as wilders in one of the best I tend to focus on wilders.

Jimbob

[Detox]

No moderators at Wilders have ever been chosen by # of posts or rate of posting. That would be a ridiculous way to decide such a thing.

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "No moderators at Wilders have ever been chosen by # of posts or rate of posting. That would be a ridiculous way to decide such a thing." }-

Detox, sorry my friend, I didn't make too clear what I meant. I was not talking about wilders before, and I did mention that quality is taken into consideration as well.

Jimbob

[big ed]

-{ Quote: "No moderators at Wilders have ever been chosen by # of posts or rate of posting. That would be a ridiculous way to decide such a thing." }-


Whew! But I already knew that!

Play on, big ed

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "Whew! But I already knew that!

Play on, big ed" }-

Some forums base moderators on post count, although an ineffective way you end up with mods that can post like robots.

Jimbob

[big ed]

-{ Quote: "

Personally, I have too much time free and so often spend a little too much time posting in forums and as wilders in one of the best I tend to focus on wilders.

Jimbob" }-

Jimmy,

I quarantee you that I did not find my "Soul Mate" by posting in forums or working on my stamp or coin collections. Ya gotta get out into the sunshine! ;)

Keep looking, big ed

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "Jimmy,

I quarantee you that I did not find my "Soul Mate" by posting in forums or working on my stamp or coin collections. Ya gotta get out into the sunshine! ;)

Keep looking, big ed" }-

Ah I get out and do exercise as well. I'm a keen swimmer, runner and cyclist. I also enjoy boxing and a little weight lifting. Although I spend a ltitle too much time on the computer, I do get exercise as well.

I also enjoy a little socialising, going to the cinema, bowling and so on.

Jimbob

[bigc73542]

-{ Quote: " [Jimbob1989]I think my view is pretty much like like AJohn's. In my mind piracy is something that eventually a lot of people are going to have to accept, unless certain changes are made, as many people take part in piracy on many different scales and levels." }-

I GUESS WE WERE RAISED WITH DIFFERENT MORALS BECAUSE I WILL NEVER ACCEPT PIRACY, YOU MIGHT AS WELL ACCEPT BURGLARY, ARMED ROBBERY AND MOST OTHER CRIMES. Because it is just plain theft and it takes a lack of morals to be involved in that activity. I would not assist someone that has problems caused by pirated or cracked software because I would be condoning the act of theft if I did.

bigc

[nick s]

Hi Jimbob1989,
-{ Quote: "Thank you for that BigBuck, this thread was getting a little too serious." }-You should remember that Wilders hosts several official support forums for security and other software developers and where the developers actively participate. You should also understand that some Wilders' members own or manage businesses and understand directly the impact of product theft (theft of their hard work). It is a serious subject for some of us.

Nick

[AJohn]

My view is not that piracy is OK and should be accepted, my view is to help everyone as I believe everyone is equal. People do things for various reasons however strange they may be and no one will Ever be able to understand everyone. I will help anyone that I am able to help, if they are stupid enough to mention that they illegally obtained something that may be a little different. Like I said earlier, people can lie all they want online and there is nothing that will be done about it. I purchase my software, but that doesnt mean others do.

[bigbuck]

I'm not sure why we are discussing this topic?
When the pirate comes to this forum wanting some assistance, I'm sure the silence will be deafening!

[Oremina]

-{ Quote: "I'm not sure why we are discussing this topic?
" }-

Why, to help Jimbob get his first 1,000 posts in, of course! :)

[bigbuck]

-{ Quote: "Why, to help Jimbob get his first 1,000 posts in, of course! :)" }- Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!
I just sprayed a mouthful of coffee all over my computer!!!

[mercurie]

-{ Quote: "No moderators at Wilders have ever been chosen by # of posts or rate of posting. That would be a ridiculous way to decide such a thing." }- Thanks for this. I agree. I try to post when I can contribute something to the conversation (at least in my mind). Posting just to post kind of silly. In ten forward if you are having some fun, that is good too. But that's a whole different type of posting in my mind. But I enjoy being here, I do not run it. IMHO I would not have Ten Forward count as a post. But it is not a major issue and I do not want to make it one. I do think showing the number of posts for the members is a good thing, a very good thing, but we should not put to much stock in how many posts one has logged.
;)

[mercurie]

-{ Quote: "I GUESS WE WERE RAISED WITH DIFFERENT MORALS BECAUSE I WILL NEVER ACCEPT PIRACY, YOU MIGHT AS WELL ACCEPT BURGLARY, ARMED ROBBERY AND MOST OTHER CRIMES. Because it is just plain theft and it takes a lack of morals to be involved in that activity. I would not assist someone that has problems caused by pirated or cracked software because I would be condoning the act of theft if I did.

bigc" }-Another fine post by BigC. Well said as usual.
;)

[mercurie]

-{ Quote: "My view is not that piracy is OK and should be accepted, my view is to help everyone as I believe everyone is equal. People do things for various reasons however strange they may be and no one will Ever be able to understand everyone. I will help anyone that I am able to help, if they are stupid enough to mention that they illegally obtained something that may be a little different. Like I said earlier, people can lie all they want online and there is nothing that will be done about it. I purchase my software, but that doesnt mean others do." }-Online yes there have to be some assumptions made. That is true, BUT REPENT...REPENT of your wrong or no help should be given. And for those who take the stand that BigC just posted I can fully understand and appreciate their position on this.

I think I need to leave now I have never posted three in a row like this. Maybe a little ten forward time will do me some good but you can tell this is a issue I am real passionate about.

[bigbuck]

Those Damn Pirates...... >:( >:( >:( >:(
It's good to know my Windows installation is legitimate!!!
;D

[nadirah]

-{ Quote: "Those Damn Pirates...... >:( >:( >:( >:(
It's good to know my Windows installation is legitimate!!!
;D" }-
LOL!!! ;D

[Jimbob1989]

I want a copy of that for my desktop ;D Need a URL.

Jimbob

[Jimbob1989]

Found another.

Jimbob

[Jimbob1989]

And another.

Jimbob

[bigbuck]

-{ Quote: "I want a copy of that for my desktop ;D Need a URL.

Jimbob" }- PM'd it....

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "PM'd it...." }-

Got it, thanks.

Jimbob

[Rita]

Bigbuck or Jimbob would either of you give me the link? :D thanks

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "Bigbuck or Jimbob would either of you give me the link? :D thanks" }-

http://wallpaper.microchiot.com/i/wpp_800/4/8/Windows_XP_Pirated_Edition.jpg

This is the one BigBuck pm'd me, you can download the others above.

Jimbob

[Rita]

-{ Quote: "http://wallpaper.microchiot.com/i/wpp_800/4/8/Windows_XP_Pirated_Edition.jpg

This is the one BigBuck pm'd me, you can download the others above.

Jimbob" }-
Thanks jimbob

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "Thanks jimbob" }-

My pleasure.

Jimbob

[bigbuck]

-{ Quote: "http://wallpaper.microchiot.com/i/wpp_800/4/8/Windows_XP_Pirated_Edition.jpg

This is the one BigBuck pm'd me, you can download the others above.

Jimbob" }-Rita,
Just thinking.....This one was only 800x600 (I quickly googled it last night)...but the one I have saved is 1024x768......so if you search, you might find one of better quality.
Buck.

[Rita]

-{ Quote: "Rita,
Just thinking.....This one was only 800x600 (I quickly googled it last night)...but the one I have saved is 1024x768......so if you search, you might find one of better quality.
Buck." }-
thanks Brad--I'll see what I can find

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "thanks Brad--I'll see what I can find" }-

BigBuck, found the one he told me about by just using google, you may want to try the same rita :)

Jimbob

[bigbuck]

I'm still looking for the pirate one.....no joy yet. But did come across a page with great w'papers. CIA and FBI ones are good...plus heaps more.
http://www.babagene.net/sfondi.htm
EDIT! PIRATE IS ON THAT PAGE!!!!

[Rita]

-{ Quote: "I'm still looking for the pirate one.....no joy yet. But did come across a page with great w'papers. CIA and FBI ones are good...plus heaps more.
http://www.babagene.net/sfondi.htm" }-
thanks for the link Brad

[bigbuck]

-{ Quote: "thanks for the link Brad" }- Check the edit above.....it's on that page!

[Rita]

Thanks Brad
What a page of great wallpaper

[Bubba]

Let's either continue with the semi-serious thread topic....Forum Morals....or we can move it to Ten Forward if you wish JimBob :lurking:

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "Let's either continue with the semi-serious thread topic....Forum Morals....or we can move it to Ten Forward if you wish JimBob :lurking:" }-

Migh as well move it. Its gone a little off topic.

Jimbob

[snowbound]

-{ Quote: "Migh as well move it. Its gone a little off topic.

Jimbob" }-

As long as Bubba's first suggestion is followed here, that won't be necessary. ;)



snowbound

[Primrose]

-{ Quote: "Migh as well move it. Its gone a little off topic.

Jimbob" }-

Not a liitle..but rather way off topic.. in which you helped moved it in that direction.. yet the questions you raised in your first post still goes down to the basics of honesty..and the member who posted that Bible verse evidently does not have a clue what the passage is all about as taken out of context..since the story ended with a total change in direction for the person(s) envolved..but I see many making the same excuse for their behavior.

[slammer_JvA]

-{ Quote: "Not a liitle..but rather way off topic..

..and the member who posted that Bible verse evidently does not have a clue what the passage is all about as taken out of context..since the story ended with a total change in direction for the person(s) envolved..but I see many making the same excuse for their behavior." }-
hmm, come to think of it and looking at it again...you might be right there, Primrose. Forget about it.

Regards,
slam ("the member who posted that Bible verse"...:-\ )

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "Regards,
slam ("the member who posted that Bible verse"... )" }-

Where? I have not seen this ???

Jimbob

[slammer_JvA]

-{ Quote: "Where? I have not seen this ???

Jimbob" }-
Sorry JB,
I Decided to delete that post, to avoid controversy and possible misunderstanding.

regards,
slammer

[Jimbob1989]

-{ Quote: "Sorry JB,
I Decided to delete that post, to avoid controversy and possible misunderstanding.

regards,
slammer" }-

:'( I missed it :'(

Jimbob

[Primrose]

-{ Quote: "Sorry JB,
I Decided to delete that post, to avoid controversy and possible misunderstanding.

regards,
slammer" }-

Thank You Sir..I did understand where you were coming from..just could not go there with you.