Disk Snapshot Question

[WilliamP]

If I use Disk Snapshot to make a snapshot to an external hard drive,then have a drive failure, can the hard drive be removed from the external enclosure ,insalled in the computer and booted???

[Peter2150]

Do you mean Drive Snapshot by chance?

[WilliamP]

Yes. I keep getting the wording mixed up. Hows everything Pete?

[Peter2150]

Hi Bill

I am fine. I don't believe that would work with Drive Snapshot or in fact with any of the disk imaging programs. Even retrospect which is a backup program uses a special format, and files need to be restored. I think that feature is somewhat unique to CMS. But if I am not mistaken you can use that CMS drive as an external USB drive. Also if I remember right you wanted to upgrade. Think we covered that in another post.

Pete

[WilliamP]

A lot of things have changed. I put in a 120 GB hard drive so I could run First Defense. Then I got Perfect Disk. I had removed Bounce Back and reinstalled the original software that came with the system. What I want to do now is put a 120 GB drive in the Backup drive and was wondering about Drive Snapshot.

[WilliamP]

I E-Mailed Tom Ehlert at Drive Snapshot with the same question and he said that it would boot. The attached is what he said.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "I E-Mailed Tom Ehlert at Drive Snapshot with the same question and he said that it would boot. The attached is what he said." }-

Now that is downright clever. Tom aside from being very responsive is a very smart windows/dos person. One could do that with any imaging program.

One of the things I've wanted to do is restore and image from one external drive to another just to test it. Bingo.

[nod32_9]

If you have a complete image file of a primary ACTIVE partition containing the OS, then you can restore that image file to ANY PRIMARY MASTER HD, and use that HD to reboot the PC. This applies to ANY imaging software. Just make sure that the new HD has an active PRIMARY partition at least as big as the image file (no compression). For a compressed image file, you need to double the size of the active PRIMARY partition.

[WilliamP]

You smart guys will have to tell me how to set that up.

[nod32_9]

Drive SnapShot does not include a partitioning software. Therefore, you will need to format the new HD (create one large primary active partition) using the new HD setup utility.

With Bootit NG, just switch the bad internal HD with the new internal HD (set the jumper on the back to Cable Select). Use the Bootit disc to create one large primary C partition in the new HD. Hook up the external HD. Reboot, and use the Bootit disc to restore the image file from the external HD to the new internal HD.

[WilliamP]

Ok guys, my question was ,get a new external HD ,do a snapshot to it. Then if the HD in the computer fails remove the HD from the external enclosure and install it in the computer. Will it boot?

[nod32_9]

AS IS, the external HD WILL NOT BOOT.

If the external HD will connect to the primary Master IDE cable inside the PC, then you can use a non-destructive partitioning software to create an additional primary active C partition large enough to handle the image file, and restore the good image file to that partition.

You are making this a much more complicated solution. Just buy a new internal HD, format it with one primary active partition that will handle the size of the image file, and dump the good image file from the external HD there!

[WilliamP]

If my C drive was to fail ,how would I be able to format the new drive after it is installed?

[nod32_9]

The HD comes with a utility disc. The software can also be downloaded from the HD mfr's website.

[WilliamP]

So if I understand correctly ,you can install the new drive,use the installation CD to boot up,format and partition the new drive, Then copy the system from the external drive to the new internal drive. Would Drive Snapshot handle the copying from the ext.to the int? But I was just wondering how this can be done when you have a drive with nothing on it?

[nod32_9]

The new drive is formatted and ready to accept data. That's how people CLEAN install windows.

Reboot with the Snapshot bootdisc and it should detect the new internal HD and the external HD. There should be an option to copy the image file from the ext to int HD. Again, you can confirm this by emailing Snapshot's support.

[WilliamP]

Thank you Nod32_9 for your help. It seems that you like Bootit. Have you used both Drive Snapshot and Bootit?

[nod32_9]

I've tested both but currently using Bootit. SnapShot isn't bad, but it cannot image a hidden primary active partition. Plus I don't trust imaging software that run IN windows. Bootit is a much more powerful software that's quite easy to use. I also like the support and excellent upgrade policy. All for only $35.

[WilliamP]

From what I have read, with Drive Snapshot you can keep the image updated like you can FD-ISR. Can Bootit do the same?

[nod32_9]

I think you're talking about incremental update. Personally, I think this is for the birds. The smaller incremental image file is worthless if the master image file is damaged. Take the time to do it right the first time. If you have a complete image file, then you can restore that image file to any blank HD.

Bootit and Snapshot does not support incremental update. That may may have changed with the latest version of Snapshot.

[WilliamP]

I'm not sure where I got the idea,but I was under the impression that you could update the backup image like you can with FD-ISR . So if it can't be updated how do you keep it current? Do you have to remove one then run another?

[nod32_9]

Create another image file. Delete the older image file when the partition is full. I work smart, not hard. That's why I keep my OS as small as possible. My WXP Pro partition is around 700MB. At high compression, the image file reduces to about 340MB. It takes less than 3 minutes to image this partition.

[WilliamP]

Right now I have a CMS Peripherals ABS Backup System. I am not too happy with their software. It excludes by default things that I don't think should be excluded. What I want to do is put a larger drive in the CMS enclosure. Right now it is 40 GB. I want to be able to back up my whole drive to it. About 16 GB. Then if my internal drive was to die I could load from the external to the new internal. I'm just not sure what to use. If I get Bootit NG is there any need for IFW or IFD? Also how good would Bootit be for what I want to do. I have FD-ISR and love it but of course it wouldn't help if the drive dies. I am attaching the exclusions in the CMS program.

[nod32_9]

I rely 100% on Bootit and couldn't think of a case where you MUST use IFD/IFW to restore the image file. Note that Bootit runs OUTSIDE of windows.

The only way you will know if Bootit will work for you is to install it in your system and give it a complete test. DO NOT wait for disaster to strike before attempting to recover the image file from the external HD. Generate a CMS backup so you can undo Bootit if it causes problem for you.

A good image file should copy everything in the partition.

[WilliamP]

Thanks NOD_9. What do you think about those excludes? The CMS drive is supposed to be bootable if installed in the computer.

[nod32_9]

Those are critical folders necessary for proper windows operation. However, I'm not familiar with CMS.

[Stro]

Hello WilliamP & nod32_9. I will follow in WilliamP's path and install First Defense-ISR and an imaging program in the next few months, so I'm following this thread with interest. And I've read imaging related posts from nod32_9 in other threads, so I know his (her?) set-up.

If I may ask two questions now....first, what do CMS and IFD/IFW stand for? I'm unfamiliar with these terms.

Secondly, can Bootit exclude certain files from the image it creates? Specifically, I'm thinking about using Bootit to image a drive on which First Defense_ISR is installed. As you know, First Defense makes an uncompressed snapshot of your C: partition and stores it in the C: partition. Can Bootit image the C: partition, but exclude the FD-ISR snapshot from its image?

Regards,
Stro

[nod32_9]

Image For Dos/Image For Windows.

Bootit will image EVERYTHING in the partition. I'd use DriveSnapshot to create the image file and put it in another partition or removable media. Never put the backup data in the same partition that you want to save. You're dead meat if something goes wrong with that partition.

[WilliamP]

CMS Periperals is a company that sells automatic backup systems. You get an external hard drive and back up software. Their sys. is kind of high and support leaves some thing to be desired. They won't accept my E Mails anymore. Now NOD_9 did I read you to say that you would use Drive Snapshot?

[nod32_9]

Stro wanted to use FD to backup the OS. I suggested Snapshot since it can store the image file OUTSIDE of the primary C partition.

[WilliamP]

Doesn't Bootit NG do the same?

[Stro]

My plan (in its current state of formulation) is to use both First Defense AND BootIt. First Defense because it can handle most OS hiccups and it has a nifty pre-boot screen for reverting back to a former C: partition snapshot, and it's quick and easy (btw, First Defense can only backup the C: partition on multi-partitioned drives, and must store its snapshot on the C: partition as well...this is a FD software constraint, as you may know). And of course BootIt to save my bacon in case of hard drive failure or some other major catastrophy where FD won't work.

So I'm disappointed to hear that BootIt backs up everything in the selected partition without the ability to exclude certain files (if I'm interpreting nod 32_9 correctly). For FD-ISR users that means an incredible duplication of stuff (application software, data files, OS), depending on how many FD snapshots you've made, will be backup imaged by BootIt. And if you partition your hard drive and move everything out of the C: partition with the exception of FD-ISR and the OS, then you've made the BootIt backup images more managable, but lost the ability to have FD-ISR save your bacon in case of application software corruption (which happened to my father's PC just last weekend....thank goodness I installed GoBack on his PC).

WilliamP, you have FD-ISR now, right? I'm interested in learning how you'll approach this issue (if, in fact, I have a correct understanding).

And I look forward to nod32_9's response to WilliamP's question....can't BootIt do the same thing as Drive Snapshot in imaging the C: partition to another partition on the HD, or to removable media?

Regards,
Stro

[WilliamP]

Hi Stro, what I am planning to do is format this CMS drive I have and make a backup with some program. [I haven't decided yet] I do have FD-ISR and I will remove the secondary snapshot before doing a back up to the external drive. Then I will make a new secondary snapshot. When I do a backup will depend on several things ,like when I download a new program or a major update to a program. I am planning on installing a larger drive in the external enclosure. Right now it is 40 GB. I will probably go to 120 GB.

[Paranoid2000]

-{ Quote: "Drive SnapShot does not include a partitioning software. Therefore, you will need to format the new HD (create one large primary active partition) using the new HD setup utility." }-Drive Snapshot can display partition data and restore partition structures onto new hard disks - see Snapshot - Restoring a volume from Dos (http://www.drivesnapshot.de/en/restdos.htm) for details.-{ Quote: "if you partition your hard drive and move everything out of the C: partition with the exception of FD-ISR and the OS, then you've made the BootIt backup images more managable, but lost the ability to have FD-ISR save your bacon in case of application software corruption" }-Having just Windows (and FD-ISR) in the C: partition does offer some major advantages. Firstly most "corruption" tends to be changed or lost entries in the Windows Registry held on C: - it is less likely that application files themselves will be affected and if they are, uninstalling and reinstalling the application should be fairly painless so the benefit in having FD-ISR running on application files is not so great. Secondly, you can then lock down access to the C: partition by setting Write access to Deny for all users except Administrator (with the exception of the FD-ISR folders). This means that any trojans or spyware that attempt to hide themselves in the Windows System folder will be blocked from writing to it, unless they are able to somehow gain Administrator (or LocalSystem) access.

There are downsides to this - you will need to run most (if not all) program installations as Administrator. You will need to use TweakUI and RegEdit to set the Windows special folders (Program Files, My Documents, Application Data, etc) to the new drive letter which can be a (one-off) hassle. Non-Administrator user settings will either need to be moved out of C: or have separate permissions set to allow writes. Once you make this change, Windows' System File Protection will create empty folders on your new drive for "critical" Microsoft Applications like Internet Explorer, NetMeeting and FrontPage (you can stop this only by disabling SFP). Finally, if the C: partition is locked down, there is likely to be little need to run FD-ISR on it at all...

However this does offer a useful extra level of system security and is fairly straightforward to do on a clean Windows installation.

[WilliamP]

Paranoid2000 what is your suggestion for our needs?

[Paranoid2000]

Images taken by Drive Snapshot (and pretty much any other imaging program) will be compressed so it is better to keep them in their native format on a separate disk and only extract them back when necessary - or for testing. So I'd suggest using your second disk to hold multiple image backups (up to its capacity, deleting old ones where necessary to make space for new ones).

As for FD-ISR and similar utilities, there should be an option to limit how much space they take up (or the number of snapshots allowed) which should cut down on the image backup sizes (if you're taking a weekly full image backup for example, FD-ISR should not need to keep more than a week's worth of snapshots).

For testing that everything works, you would ideally want to borrow a third disk but you could temporarily create a new partition on your backup disk to hold a restored image for testing.

[WilliamP]

What is your choice for imaging?

[Paranoid2000]

Backups need to be done regularly. This is easier in my view, if they can be done without interrupting other tasks. For this reason I would favour Drive Snapshot which can run in the background. If however you are comfortable with setting aside a couple of hours every week, running a DOS-based backup program is an option worth considering.

[Peter2150]

Couple of things re FD-ISR. First of all if you are at all careful there is not really a need to keep multiple extra snapshots. I actually only use one secondary snapshot. I generally update it prior to any action. This has worked well for me.

Also I have everything in my c: drive. Only one partition. Therefore this is all replicated in the FD-ISR snapshot. Advantage I see is that when I test something new, I want to see how it interacts with everything on my computer, and if I don't like it I want my computer back the way it was before. If the only thing in the snapshot was windows itself this wouldn't work. Guess it depends on the way you work. But for example last month I wanted to test out how Nav005 interacted with PG. So I downloaded the trial and installed it. Tested out its various interactions. I did all this in the secondary snapshot and when I was done, a simple copy and it was all gone. If the only thing in the snapshot was the windows stuff clearly this wouldn't have worked as well.

Pete

[nod32_9]

Bootit can image/restore to any partition. It will also handle external HD, internal slave HD, CDs, DVDs, etc.... Putting everything in the C partition is like having one huge closet for all your belongings. Why work hard when you have the ability to work smart?

Almost ALL software issues are directly connected to the OS. That's why you want to keep the partition with the OS as small as possible to expedite the creation and restoration of the image file. If the procedure is FAST and EASY, then you will image more often.

I only keep the OS in the C partition. The pagefile and drive cache are moved to another partition (no need to backup these items). When properly configured, the WXP partition shouldn't exceed 1.5GB. Even my 600MHz PIII could image 1.5GB of data in 6 minutes. And we're talking about 1 minute of processing time for a high-end PC.

Do it right the first time. There is no need to run a 1/2 a _ _ backup system like FD when you can create a complete image file to repair windows in a few minutes. I don't use system restore or any other windows-based software for backup. My time is valuable. That's why I only use an imaging software with the highest degree of reliability.

[Peter2150]

nod32_9

You might want to try and remember that what works for you miight not be best for other. FD-ISR is not 1/2 ..... as you put it. Also your solution about partitioning your drive the way you do works great for YOU, but might not be the best solution for everyone. Also I've noticed that on any thread relating to any backup issue when someone asks about any software your solution is to use BootitNG. I've looked at it and I wouldn't use it. Does that make it bad. No. Just not my cup of tea. Try and put yourself in the shoes of the person asking the question, and be helpful.

Pete

[nod32_9]

A true backup program will not allow the user to store saved data in the "imaged" partition. FD is a BAND-AID solution because it can only store data in the primary C partition! A good imaging software should also copy everything in the target partition without alteration.

If you cannot appreciate the advantages of drive partitioning, then you should continue stuffing you belongings into that same closet. I'm not here to convert anyone.

You obviously don't have a good understanding of how a imaging software works. Let's say you have windows in the C partition. If you want to test software Z, then make an image file of the C partition and load software Z in the C partition. To remove software Z, simply restore the image file of partition C. If you want to keep software Z, then restore the image file of partition C and reload software Z to another partition of choice. The necessary "hooks" required to run software Z will be added to the C partition. Now create another image file of the C partition.

I may keep several image files in another partition to test the performance of various AV scanners with my setup. When done, I simply restore my good image without the test program.

Words like "not my cup of tea" have no value. To be constructive, you need to provide pros and cons to support you point of view.

FD is convenient, but it is not as powerful and robust as a true imaging software.

[Paranoid2000]

-{ Quote: "A true backup program will not allow the user to store saved data in the "imaged" partition. FD is a BAND-AID solution because it can only store data in the primary C partition! A good imaging software should also copy everything in the target partition without alteration.

<snip>

FD is convenient, but it is not as powerful and robust as a true imaging software." }-From Raxco's website:

"FirstDefense-ISR™ provides the fastest means of recovering a failed system when the cause is associated with critical operating system or software corruptions and problems."

In other words, it is not and does not claim to be an image backup solution.

Nod32_9, while you have made some useful and informed posts in the past, please bear in mind that issues like partition setup and backup strategies come down to personal requirements and preference. Your ideal will not be shared by everyone else, and treating others' views as misinformed shows a lack of understanding of all the issues involved. For example your C/Z partition setup would require you to reimage the C partition after every software installation you decided to keep - not necessarily a convenient option for some who may prefer an uninstaller or rollback software like FD:ISR (and certainly not convenient with imaging software that requires you to exit Windows to take such a backup).

I think that enough information has been supplied to allow those with queries in this thread to make their own decision, so I will withdraw from this debate.

[nod32_9]

Would you rather image a 1.5GB partition or the whole HD? There are many solutions to a problem. I demand speed, stability, and flexibility with the lowest cost. That's why I use Bootit.

The key to system stability is to be very selective with what you install in windows. I only add one or two programs each year. Therefore, I don't mind wasting 5 min to create an image file of the C partition.

To me, FD and GoBack provide the user with a false sense of security. That said, those proggies are much more capable than windows system restore.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "Would you rather image a 1.5GB partition or the whole HD? There are many solutions to a problem. I demand speed, stability, and flexibility with the lowest cost. That's why I use Bootit.

The key to system stability is to be very selective with what you install in windows. I only add one or two programs each year. Therefore, I don't mind wasting 5 min to create an image file of the C partition.

To me, FD and GoBack provide the user with a false sense of security. That said, those proggies are much more capable than windows system restore." }-

nod32_9

Read your post. "I demand" "I only" "I don't" "To Me" Do you get it. It is full of me me me. Your solution works for you, but not the whole world.

There is absolutely no sense of false security with FD and to some extent goback. It totally protects me from everything EXCEPT hard disk failure, and that works well for me in my situation. For hard disk failure I do backup and imaging stuff.

Different strokes for different folks. Okay.

[WilliamP]

Ok guys we don't need fussing and fighting . I started this and I have learned a lot from all the posts. We sometime loose sight of the fact that we all don't have the same needs or abilities. I need a rather simple backup system. I don't have any business info on my system. I'm just lazy and don't want to have reload everything if I have a drive failure. Hopefully that won't be needed. Thank you all for all the help.

[nod32_9]

"It totally protects me from everything EXCEPT hard disk failure".

I can't speak for anyone else but ME. One of these days, you will realize the truth behind this statement..."FirstDefense-ISR™ provides the fastest means of recovering a failed system when the cause is associated with critical operating system or software corruptions and problems."

[Peter2150]

I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with that statement. Based on my experience though it is true. I had a system hang while running regedit. Had to use the power button to reset. System did boot into windows, but it was a real mess, barely functioning. Rebooting into the secondary snapshot it was a 2 minute copy to fix it.

[Stro]

Before this thread is abandonned and everyone scatters, I wonder if I might squeeze in another question or two.

First, I appreciate reading all your posts. My academic knowledge of the issues has greatly increased. Now I just need to get some hands on experience.

nod32_9, can you tell me if BootItNG can perform nondestructive partitioning of hard drives already full of application software & data? And if the answer is yes, will I need to uninstall application software from C: and install it in one of the other HD partitions in order to get the necessary application software "hooks" into the OS?

Also, can you tell me the approx compression % of BootIt, if you know it.

A big concern I have regarding partitioning the HD stems from what Paranoid2000 wrote in his Dec 8, 7:57PM post, "....use RegEdit to set the Windows special folders (Program Files, My Documents, Application Data, etc.) to the new drive letter." I have no idea how to begin to do this. Does partitioning software handle these drive redirections for you, or do you need to manually edit the registry to redirect your Windows special folders regardless of the partitioning software you use?

Finally, nod32_9 do you have experience with TeraByte's Image for Dos? If I decide to keep everything in C:, will IFD give me all the imaging capabilities as BootIt? (BTW, I know BootIt adds boot mgmt & partitioning capabilities not included with IFD/IFW.)

Thanks & regards,
Stro

[nod32_9]

Bootit supports non-destructive partitioning. All the data in your HD will not be altered/deleted. That said, it's always best to image the data prior to partitioning. Sh_t happens.

I would rename all the optical drives and removable drives starting with M, then N, O, etc.... If you don't need to install an OS, then I would recommend that you create one or more extended logical partition(s) AFTER the C primary active partition (D, E, F...).

Copy important data that you want to backup from the C partition to the extended logical partition(s). Now remove the program that you want to move out of the C partition. Reboot. Reload the program to the new partition. Reboot. There is no need for you to touch regedit with my approach.

Bootit will compress the data by 40-50% of the original size. I don't use IFD. Bootit is more capable and doesn't cost much more $. IFD many not detect some USB drives.