Differentiating between bashing and strong opinions.. objectivity flew the coop

[Galcoolest]

If my removed post about MS and SP2 ( which was once found in Other Security Issues) fits the bill as being "bashing"- I'm gonna rip out the 1st amendment section in my Constitutional Law textbook from law school, and just use it stoke my Bar-B-Q tonight.

Freedom of speech as I once understood it seems to have little strength or meaning in many ways as of late.... But when a simple computer discussion forum cannot allow an erudite, thought-provoking and in no way badly reasoned or completely unsupported argument voicing an admittedly unpopular, but by no means slanderous or malintentioned , analysis of a commercial situation - (and to the contrary merely reiterates a widely held point of view), well the heck with it all.

I'd rather get the chicken going with that page, as those once sacrosanct words ain't doing much good for me elsewhere any more.

And I thought the guys quoted in the article were in MS's pocket... shame on such unwarranted and paranoiac censorship on this site. Unreal.

[puff-m-d]

-{ Quote: "If my removed post about MS and SP2 ( which was once found in Other Security Issues)" }-Where was this particular post you are talking about deleted from? I am seeing no posts of your deleted anywhere except one that you deleted yourself....

[james232r]

-{ Quote: "
But when a simple computer discussion forum cannot allow an erudite, thought-provoking and in no way badly reasoned or completely unsupported argument

" }-

If you do say so yourself :)

[Galcoolest]

James, my point was well-taken, though my choice of words right there may have seemed arrogant, smug or cocky to you. This was not a histrionic, emotional rampage agaist MS, or some discordant or disorganized rambling attack on the company. It was a pretty basic posting of an opinion shared by many.

I believe that while my post was unabashedly and inarguably a biased piece ( what we legal sorts call argumentative as opposed to objective in any way), that nonetheless my viewpoint was iterated with proper explication and foundation. I was actually just repeating in my own words an analysis and line of thought many. many other learned folks have expressed in myriad ways and places for a long, long time.

Thus my disappointment that the post was excised. While it clearly expressed an unpopular or exteme conclusoriness, it wasn't "bashing" MS with mean-spiritedness or designed to be inciteful or incendiary, disruptive ,or hurtful. My post simply presented an argument, not unique or astonishingly bizarre, with regards to the commercial position MS enjoys today- it's an opinion, a position paper, no more , no less. Agree or disagree, that's up to you.

But having such a piece censored based solely on its unappreciated conclusions or supposedly "bashing MS" implications really irks me. Were this post wildly unfactual, irrational and hysterical, then maybe I could appreciate its removal. However, I maintain with vigor that my post was certainly provocative, and critical of MS, but not in any way a candidate for summary silencing like that.

I stand behind my disappointment with the evaluation made by whichever powers-that-be aroud here . I find their decision to ax my post to be reactionary, cowardly and a disservice to their audience, who deserve the right to ascertain for themselves whether or not my missive was a crock of s***.

[Galcoolest]

HERE"S THE POST THAT GOT ASSASSINATED:


Finjan: Warning users or scaring up business?

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5449269.html?tag=default

Windows XP users could be excused for feeling a little less safe this week.

Security tools maker Finjan Software warned on Wednesday that it found as many as 10 security flaws in the last update to Microsoft's flagship operating system, Windows XP Service Pack 2.

In a statement that contained few details, the U.K. company claimed that the vulnerabilities could enable attackers to remotely access a victim's files, remove security measures aimed at Internet threats and run programs without any notification to the user.

Windows XP SP2 "suffers because it is still basically the same operating system and has some major flaws which compromise end-user security," Shlomo Touboul, CEO of the firm, said in statement. "By using Finjan's proactive security solutions...users can enjoy a secure environment that protects them from such vulnerabilities."

The company did not wait for Microsoft to fix the issues, as many security companies do, and used the announcement to push its own wares as a way to be protected from the threats.

While security researchers have sometimes outed flaws in Microsoft products before the software giant has published a patch, security companies have generally waited to announce vulnerabilities until Microsoft had a way to protect its customers. Finjan's press release has reopened the debate over what should be considered the responsible disclosure of software flaws.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
"The line between marketing products and disclosing security vulnerabilities should be well-defined for security companies, said Geoff Shively, chief scientist at security company PivX Solutions.

"Being a security company, you have to consider the impact on global Internet security before doing anything," he said. PivX has released software flaw advisories and plugged its products, but the company always gives Microsoft adequate time to fix the issues, he said. "Vulnerabilities are too dangerous and too powerful to be used as a marketing tool."

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
This is incredible stuff. Talk about having the little guys eating out of your hands.

It's really interesting to look at this issue in the context of other flawed and perhaps dangerous (physically or financially) consumer products that are already on the market when folks start to discover their defects. When the Pinto was shown to be blowing up repeatedly upon minor rearend impacts, Ford finally had to admit its design problems and pay up. When DDT everntually became an obvious extinguisher of wildlife and grave threat to human health, it was outlawed. When the morning sickeness drug thalidomide was linked to horrific birth defects, it was banned. Just recently, the makers of the arthritis drug Vioxx yanked it off the shelves even before it has been conclusively proven that it is actually linked to an increased rate of heart attacks. The company did the "right thing" way ahead of legal necessity to do so, surely to save money, but also because such a manuveur will be viewed down the road "as exhibiting integrity and responsibility", thus perhaps salvaging the whole darn company itself.

In other words, in the marketplace, generally speaking, when evidence of a product's defective nature reaches a certain "threshold" (pretty much meaning when attorneys start to think they can prove the defect by a preponderance of the evidence and start threatening to sue or have already sued) - at that juncture, in practice, most products even facing such serious challenges are withdrawn or put under repair plans (such as recalls) long before expensive litigation and damning judgments actually necessitate it. When verdicts do come in against a product- the law then requires the responsible manufacturer and/ or marketer of the questioned product to withdraw it from circulation or absolutely to fix it, remedy any negative impacts where possible, compensate the injured, etc. .

But Microsoft- though they have an absurdly dominant market position with Windows software and enormous responsibility for the proper (as is promoted and advertised) functioning of countless machines, which millions of people worldwide use every day in businesses and their personal lives, and the integrity and safety of which is vital to the globe, really, on myriad levels- Microsoft, argues that they ought to be given a "chance to fix things" before the consumer is told of serious security problems. Their first line of justification is that they need to shield the public from the "disruption" or "turmoil" that might result from the panic about their endangered systems, that a fix should be in place before the consumers are even told about the defects in avoidance of some sort of "chaos".

Certainly the car makers and the pesticide folks desparately wanted the same leeway, but that's not the way the system is supposed to work or does work for 99.9% of the commercial players. . Once prime facie evidence of a defect is inarguable, the public has a right to that information for its protection and the commercial entity behind it a duty to its disclosure. Period.

. Thus when MS is confronted with blatant security flaws in SP2, it cannot legimately argue that the information ought to be hush-hush--- under product liability laws it OUGHT to be revealed- however the power and influence of MS have allowed it to demand and coerce "cure time" from everyone at its mercy, in an unwritten monopolistic manipulation and abuse of market norms.

So when Finjan dares to blow the whistle earlier than mighty MS is accustomed, when MS is unmasked with respect to unremedied security issues with its software, MS screams that " this will hurt the consumer", or no, "the flaws aren't really there," or no, "it's not fair because we're supposed to get some cure time, or no, this is it, "it's just Finjan trying to take advantage of the situation for itself! Yeah- they're the villains!"

There isn't a comparable manufacturer or developer of anything anywhere that exhibits the audacity and hubris of Microsoft. Or its monopolisitic strength. Most market analysts, no make that all market analysts, know that to be plain and simple fact. It's just that those of them in MS's pocket are paid to dance around that truism and deny Microsoft's culpability under product liability laws that apply to everyone else with the evasive, self-serving arguments mentioned above.

MS has and will continue to get away with it, too, to skirt product liability laws and commercial standards and practices everyone else must adhere to. It's absolutley no different than Ma Bell making you rent your phone or Joe Steelmaker wiping out your community when it got cheaper to take the only employer in town, the mill, to Asia. He who has the gold rules, and bends the rules to suit their purses. That is until the source of their power can be undone somehow. Unfortunately the Feds can't even do that yet with MS, and we're all in for the grossly unjust ramifications of their as yet unbridled and ferocious reign over the computer industry worldwide.



OKAY_ THIS DOES BORDER ON BASHING_ I CAN SEE THAT>>> BUT BASHING IN A SEMI_LEGITIMATE WAY, ANYWAY? ;)

[snapdragin]

Hello Galcoolest,

I'm going to assume you mean the post you made after Post #4, in this thread:

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=54620

As Puff_m_d already said, the only post that was deleted in that thread was the one you deleted yourself, which you have again posted here.

You did not give any reason as to why you deleted it, but do you not remember deleting it yourself?

snap

[bigc73542]

here is a screen shot of it

[Galcoolest]

HHHHHMMMMMM...Nope. I must have inadvertently hit the delete function in my tired state at that time, and not realized it.

Okay, not only am I eating some "bash or not bash" crow, now my whole "very arguably hysterical last post", squealing about censorship, is effectively rendered idiotic itself.

Alas- I need to shut off the ole noggin more often, and go watch Jerry Springer or the fishing show like all my neighbors here in the wilds of SW Florida.....

[bigc73542]

forget the fishing show, get your pole lets go fishing ;D ;)

[snapdragin]

Ahh, hitting the wrong button can happen to all of us, and it has. If you should ever mistakenly hit the wrong button and delete your post like that, you can always send one of the Mods or Admins a PM, and we can look into it. :)

Just so you know, if ever one of the Moderating team should remove a post from a thread, there will always be a reply post added back to the thread stating which post was removed, and why.

snap

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "Okay, not only am I eating some "bash or not bash" crow, now my whole "very arguably hysterical last post", squealing about censorship, is effectively rendered idiotic itself." }-
Galcoolest,

Welcome to the club! I usually like my crow gently cooked, with a hint of chipotle sauce and light red wine on the side. I've eaten too many servings of crow by now to skip proper preparation anymore - after a while it seems like comfort food, well, it does to me at least.

Best regards,

Blue

[Galcoolest]

LOL- no one actually GOES fishing in this land of stripmalls and the worship of the manicured lawn. It's either too damn hot, or in the good weather months too damn crowded to find parking, or too damn costly overall. Young Floridians spend all their dough on crack and booze, and the Senior crew is laboring under ScooterStore adhesion contracts or their high interest air condtioning or siding repair payments.

Besides, bait's a friggin rip off , didn't ya know? And this ain't the ocean goofball- with luck you'll score a 12 inch snapper after 12 hours out there- nah, we just watch the fishing show , or better yet, the tractor pull meet over on Cable 72. ;)
[this San Fran girl is outta here and going home REAL SOON- the job that lured me from that REAL paradise wound up to be a pathetic joke, and I will not look back as I pull out of here...]

[bigc73542]

now the tractor pulls I can go for. Besides my sister lives in Florida and says the one time they did go fishing the mosquitos almost carried her husband off. ;)

[TheSnowman]

I believe the Thread Galcool refers to was LOCKED.....not deleted.


Rest fully assured that thread was LOCKED by moderator snapdragin's questionable behavior.............and failure to exersise proper restraint in a public enviorment.
The legal issues that have arose due to the prejudice displayed may be cause of action in a civil matter.
A copy of the thread in question has been taken as well as copies of other posts reflecting prejudice.

The Software vendors hosting their products at this website invite question of why they continue association with persons who so blantantly defend spyware vendors. An accordingly the associating vendor's pruducts will not be purchased in the future.
Please note that there has been no debate on this issue by my person.
Instead, the matter of is moderator Snapdragon liable........is one for the learned in matters of law.

[Galcoolest]

We're straying folks, but I wouldn't wish this hellhole state on anyone but my ex-boyfriend from high school who stuck a big wad of gum in my hair once. 8)

[snapdragin]

Oh come on. You are putting words in my mouth. You have no idea how I stand on such issues at all.

[Galcoolest]

That whole explanation about the locked thread business, etc., was way beyond anything I understand or am willing to investigate further. I have a bowling show coming up. But thanks for the info. (I admit I giggle at my own humor...)

[LowWaterMark]

TheSnowman,

The only thing I see in that thread is your over reaction, nothing more. And frankly it made no sense to me the first time I read or now upon review.

Snapdragin made a simple TOS reminder posting here (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?p=299174), which we often do in threads that talk heatedly about a product or company (whether Microsoft or some other). Heck, Galcoolest had even posted above in that thread (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?p=299026)... "I pasted my MS bashing rant over in another forum and not only had to delete it for my safety, but I may never be allowed near there again!!!" So as we moderators do when things heat up, we post a reminder about the rules just as a preventative to keeping things on track.

Well, to that one line reminder you replied first (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?p=299419) asking what bashing occurred. Then 7 minutes later you posted a "To hell with it..." response. Then 8 minutes after that, you posted a dramatic "today you lost a friend" posting.

If that isn't an over reaction and overly dramatic display, I don't know what is. All because a moderator on this forum posted a general reminder to everyone in the thread about staying within the forum TOS - in a thread that had been both taken widely off-topic, and included people talking about a heated subject and referencing bashing postings.

If you want to make a legal action out of that, you go for it.

[Galcoolest]

To quote the immortal words of our pal Rodney K:

"Hey, can't we all just be friends:?"

[still_longhorn]

-{ Quote: "I believe the Thread Galcool refers to was LOCKED.....not deleted.
Rest fully assured that thread was LOCKED by moderator snapdragin's questionable behavior.............and failure to exersise proper restraint in a public enviorment.
The legal issues that have arose due to the prejudice displayed may be cause of action in a civil matter.
A copy of the thread in question has been taken as well as copies of other posts reflecting prejudice.
" }-

Ronjor's ZD quote that opened the whole thread: Finjan: Warning users or scaring up business?
-{ Quote: "While security researchers have sometimes outed flaws in Microsoft products before the software giant has published a patch, security companies have generally waited to announce vulnerabilities until Microsoft had a way to protect its customers. Finjan's press release has reopened the debate over what should be considered the responsible disclosure of software flaws. " }-

So, what's wrong with the picture? Jeesiz! A moderator allows a thread that asks for opinions defending one side or the other and you expect sparks not to fly? Lets try a discussion on the catholic religion without involving the pope, perhaps?. What went off topic in the thread concerned were the social amenities... but that was corrected immediately

BTW, here are some synonyms for the word "forum": debate, discussion, probe,argument, dispute, deliberation,doubt, query, question, grill, etc.

[still_longhorn]

LWM,
You posted:
-{ Quote: "TheSnowman,

Well, to that one line reminder you replied first (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?p=299419) asking what bashing occurred. Then 7 minutes later you posted a "To hell with it..." response. Then 8 minutes after that, you posted a dramatic "today you lost a friend" posting.

If that isn't an over reaction and overly dramatic display, I don't know what is." }-
But you posted this previously:
-{ Quote: "Have you ever noticed how easy it is to offend someone else online?

Sometimes you are posting along having a great day and suddenly, out of no where, you get a reply to a post that tells you quite bluntly that you've just insulted another person. A short time later the thread has gone off-track and people are flaming each other, and then in steps a Moderator who ends up closing the thread and everyone is angry - mostly at you.

Or, perhaps you've been on the other side on this situation. There you are trying to be helpful, posting your heart out when suddenly, for no apparent reason, someone makes a reply that appears to be down right rude and offensive, and it is aimed directly at you. :'(

If you haven't seen this or been involved in at least one of these situations yourself, then you probably haven't been posting very long, or perhaps you aren't posting in any controversial topics or places.

I'm bringing this up for a couple reasons...

First, to remind everyone that it is very easy to misunderstand what someone intends to say in a written post. It is much harder to be clearly and consistently understood in just a few written sentences then it is when you are speaking with someone face to face.

Second, we all need to remember that the Internet spans around the world, and International Forums such as Wilders Security have quite a diverse group of participants. While Wilders is mostly an English language forum, (the main exception being the LnS French forum section), over half the people here do not have English as their primary language.

Think about that and its implications. Try to imagine just how much translating is being done here and how people of different languages, cultures and backgrounds can so easily misunderstand what is written in a post. Imagine times when even a simple joke, which would be funny to people with similar backgrounds, causes insult to someone who has a completely different frame of reference.

We all need to be mindful of this and try to use extra care in writing our posts, while also giving the benefit of the doubt to others, when reading what has been posted. It's best not to assume an insult and react to it when what was intended could be totally innocent.

Of course, there really are people who simply intend to insult others and disrupt a forum. Their only purpose being to cause trouble and attempt to insight flame wars. Sometimes they post inflammatory remarks against individuals, or certain vendors or products, just so they can get other people to post flaming comments back at them. (We usually refer to these people as Trolls. Hence the expression "Please don't feed the trolls." )

Remember, there really is no good reason, nor any benefit to you or your overall well being, to take offense from things that are written online. If we all use a little care in choosing how we word our posts, and if we are generous in how we interpret what others post, then we'll all have a lot more fun (and a lot less stress) online." }-

So what's with this high horse ****?
-{ Quote: "If you want to make a legal action out of that, you go for it." }-

[Jo M]

Hi Galcoolest,

I just want to say thanks for putting your post back in the public forum. I found it an interesting read and have made Finjan's a bookmark in my security section. If we can trust them to blow the whistle regardless then I think that I'll trust them more because of it!

As you can see from my signature I have already removed quite a lot of MS junk from my various systems, but especially from my web system! Junk like IE, OE etc. etc. Using XPlite.

I also like http://www.blackviper.com/index.html for information about which windows sevices can safely be stopped, to help boost security! Have you come across it?

Regards another basher Jo M

[wildman]

::) Oh boy! How did we become so sensitive? When did we get to the point of being so politically correct, that free expression was sacrificed? Does no one have a thick hide anymore? Is debate now a dirty word?

I have stated before that I joined Wilders under controversy, that ought to tell one that I am rather blunt. I have been accused of being a troll on another forum, testament to my lack of being able to express myself eloquently. This should indicate that I have little to no room to find much fault with those attempting to express their honest opinions. Note the word honest, it is when I perceive other than honest, that I will surely bring to bare my ability to be extremely blunt. I will always defend an individuals right to express themselves. I reserve the right to agree or disagree however, and the right to express that in any damn way I so chose. This does not however entitle me to make personal attacks upon anyone. Strong opinions about a company and or it's products is fine by me, and I hope all are capable of drawing their own conclusions in this regard. I hope this makes sense, as again I am not the greatest with the written word.

Thanks
wildman
???

[Galcoolest]

Hey all-

Please don't forget or somehow overlook that my ballistic post about censorship was 100% off base because NO ONE censored anything! I somehow accidentally deleted my own post and had nada to be bitching about.

I think that completely over-amped and practically out of control accusatory post is a good example of the sort impulsive bologna I am capable of spitting out , and the kind of self-righteous posting I am not at all proud of. I am going to try to avoid flying off that like in the future. It's not at all cool.

[GlobalForce]

No worries Gal, it happens to the best of us.
Personally I enjoy the sharp energy and insight you've brought to the forums. 8) IMO, you have been well received.......

GF

[still_longhorn]

Jeesiz GC, you're good at this aren't you? You should have been a trial lawyer.... A natural talent or do they teach this at law school too?

[Detox]

The topic of this thread has been addressed and resolved. I see nothing of use here and a great danger of unnecessary personal conflicts beginning should the off-topic remarks continue - so I'll close it now.