Update Alerts / Compassion vs. Coldheartedness -- Part IV

[Stoneheart]

The following relates to this topic:

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=49026

.

I am sorry to do this but the "unique" habits of this forum leave me no choice. Since you always prematurely close/delete what you do not like I have decided that I will simply disregard unreasonable moderator decisions.

.

~ no need to repost it all ~ LWM

[LowWaterMark]

-{ Quote: "I am sorry to do this but the "unique" habits of this forum leave me no choice. Since you always prematurely close/delete what you do not like I have decided that I will simply disregard unreasonable moderator decisions." }-You absolutely have a choice, that being to not use this forum. If you don't like how the Update Alerts are handled here, then use the updates thread at some other well posted security forum (there's a good one at DSLR - Security).

As for disregarding moderator decisions... oh come on! That is just plain wrong and you are in violation of our TOS for doing that, and for posting the same topic over and over when the moderators closed and/or removed the previous threads. You have no specific right to challenge the decisions of this forum's management or to even use this forum.

As for some questions you asked, such as trying to find a macromedia update or sorting update alerts alphabetically, you can easily do both of those yourself.

You can sort the threads into alphabetical order by thread title or thread starter by clicking on either the "Thread / Thread Starter" links (which are clickable in the normal subforum index view) when viewing the subforum index. And I just entered the word macromedia in the search line and selected Update Alerts as the forum to search and got the image below.

As for the Update Alerts section, I think it is running really well. It is kept current and many people use it without problem.

[Stoneheart]

@Tassie, Bubba, Lowwatermark

Don't get me wrong. Although I do not like people posting the same update alert multiple times and thereby spamming the update alerts forum I absolutely agree that it is not me who has to decide whether this is right or wrong.

However, I should be allowed to express my opinion on this matter. Since moderators / admins of this forum did not allow me to express my opinion I am now lecturing you:

This forum has benefitted from many users (including me) because this is an open forum. Anybody can post here without registration. This is the key to success.

The major weakness of this forum are some of the moderators / admins who do not know how to properly moderate. Fortunately, this is compensated by the fact that this is an open forum (see above).

I would like you to understand a few things:

1.
Closing or deleting a topic is the "ultima ratio". In real world terms this is aborting a discussion and slap someone right into his/her face. You should only do this if it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. If you constantly abuse your powers people will revolt and hit you back. That's what I am doing now. In the future I will spam this entire forum with topics unreasonably closed by mods / admins (no matter whether it is my own topic or someone else's topic). The only way to prevent this is to make this a closed forum ...

2.
As regards the TOS: unfortunately, you do not have a clear & fair TOS. You are constantly playing tricks, create new "unwritten" rules etc. I am fed up with this and I will hit back now. Close this forum and you will get rid of me (and get a boring community). Or leave this this forum open and handle it in a democratic manner. You simply need to understand that your primary job is not RULING this community but SERVING this community.

3.
It was an unfair trick by Bubba to remove Part III of this topic: you are trying to stop the discussion by moving it to a "remote area" which is not frequently visited. Therefore, I will post Part III again so that it properly refers to this thread. If you delete Part III I will spam it all over the forum.

4.
Sorry for being that strict. But I feel that it will benefit this forum which I do not perceive as your property or something like that.

[LowWaterMark]

Obviously, you are nothing but a troll then. Threatening to spam an entire forum? What gives you that right? This is a privately funded forum, not some publicly funded trust. Who are you to break the rules? Why should you have such a right?

[Stoneheart]

Because this is an open forum. Close it. Then you can rule it in an undemocratic manner.

As regards the funding: if you really need money I will donate.

[LowWaterMark]

Actually, perhaps it is time to debate whether or not we should allow guest based postings here. The question comes up every now and then, and certainly the above helps to support one side of the argument.

Other people's thoughts?

[hayc59]

-{ Quote: " The major weakness of this forum are some of the moderators / admins who do not know how to properly moderate
" }- NOT, that would be a very incorrect statement!!!
Stonedheart, Your problem and I am sure you have had this for quite
sometime, Is you have a real hard time following 'directions'.
Following rules and so on and so on.........am I correct??

[hayc59]

-{ Quote: "Actually, perhaps it is time to debate whether or not we should allow guest based postings here. The question comes up every now and then, and certainly the above helps to support one side of the argument.

Other people's thoughts?" }-No More Guest's!!!! Out With The Trash!!!

[Notok]

-{ Quote: "No More Guest's!!!! Out With The Trash!!!" }-
I agree.

[Stoneheart]

Why not? Try it out and close this community. You have already many many users. I do not believe that this community will quickly die. I will take some time until it gets boring because innovative & strange users like me will post somewhere else.

But please note: one thing does not work. You cannot pretend that this is a democratic forum and, at the same time, unfairly edit/close/delete postings so that it looks as if you were right and the bad "guests" are wrong. Sooner or later people will get fed up with such unfair manipulations.

[hayc59]

StonedHeart!!!
Give it up!! If you were not such a jerk to Nick( who by the way is my bro...so dont go there)
when he tried to help you, YOU would not be in this jam!!
your a Mut!! thats all go play somewheres else

[GlobalForce]

Not looking to make waves here, but personally I feel the freedom for guests to post there opinions offers some good insight that may not be available from within so long as the TOS are adhered to. Commentary on the structure of the forums is open for reasonable discussion, provided the tempo is constructive, as I'm sure you LWM may agree.

The activity of welcome guests here at Wilders can occasionally be viewed as "troll-like", due mostly in part to infrequency, as manners are minded on the whole. It's just that when a thread like this starts up, some people take it personal and get
all hot under the collar, and there's NO need for it!

In my readings, guests have provided valuble additions in topics covering quite a broad range of subject matter,
also posting alerts and helpful tips.

IMO, and I'm entitled to it, I favor "Open Forum!"

GF

[hayc59]

-{ Quote: " In my readings, guests have provided valuble additions in topics covering quite a broad range of subject matter, " }- Agreed?? but it can also be done just as well when they/him/her sign on(more personable)

[Stonehearts]

@hay

"StonedHeart!!!
Give it up!! If you were not such a jerk to Nick( who by the way is my bro...so dont go there)
when he tried to help you, YOU would not be in this jam!!"

Why was I a jerk to Nick? What did I say? And how did he try to help me?? Honestly, I do not understand what you try to tell me. I have not personally attacked Nick. And he did not try to help me.

Maybe I was impersonated?? I cannot rule this out because it's hard to tell what the moderators have edited/deleted.

Please be assured that I have not specific prejudices against anybody here. I am merely criticising certain things which happen in this forum (like unfairly editing topics etc.). Moreover, it's human to make mistakes. Therefore, I would never condemn a person because of a single mistake.

Again, I have nothing against your brother Nick and I am completely puzzled why I was "a jerk to him".

[hayc59]

-{ Quote: " Maybe I was impersonated?? I cannot rule this out because it's hard to tell what the moderators have edited/deleted." }-Conspiracy theory eh!!
Paranoia huh?? well now lets see.those dont work anymore.
Maybe.just maybe if you read the rules before posting these feeling would subside...........

[Stoneheart]

Conspiracy or not. Doesn't matter.

I think the most important thing is whether I was a jerk to your brother. I do not like being a jerk. And I am very sorry if I had insulted him. Please tell me what's going on.

[hayc59]

you may have not insulted him with typed words and i only speak for myself on this.but nick asked i believe twice to stop posting in updates when your post were not following the rules!!!
you should have read the rules and then you would not have become a 'jerk'. which may have been a little harsh on your part..so for that i am sorry!!
but for gods sake man,this is really so worthless that we/you and me have come to this!!
lets start over and start fresh.sign up and lets have some fun!!

[hayc59]

Stoneman what do say..new start
new day......?

[Stoneheart]

@hay

No problem. I am absolutely not interested in making other people feel bad.

Moreover, I could imagine that my initial topic may have insulted a some people because I said that people are posting these signature update alerts because they are bored.

I guess this was a little bit too candid. But it was not meant to insult people. Many people are internet addicts (me included) ... ;-)

[hayc59]

-{ Quote: "people are posting these signature update alerts because they are bored." }-No not bored.Just dedicated Individuals that enjoy
helping out others!!
Now enouh said,for now...? I have to go post updates at the usual stops
hehehehehehe.....Muhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.WooT

[Brent]

Get rid of Guests.

[LowWaterMark]

Indeed, Hayc is correct. The entire problem here is not what you want to talk about Stoneheart, it's that you insist about talking about it in the Update Alerts section. But simply put, that subforum is not for discussions. It's for posting new alerts, that's all. But you threaten to spam us if we remove your thread from that section.

-{ Quote: "You are constantly playing tricks, create new "unwritten" rules etc." }-The posting policy for Update Alerts has been the same for more than two years now, although I did post a new version of that policy last December, it is the same policy just with updated examples.

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=17362

-{ Quote: "you are trying to stop the discussion by moving it to a "remote area" which is not frequently visited." }-Hardly. The General Topics section is at the top of the forum and is very highly accessed. It is also where discussions regarding the forum, its policies and so forth are held.

-{ Quote: "But please note: one thing does not work. You cannot pretend that this is a democratic forum and, at the same time, unfairly edit/close/delete postings so that it looks as if you were right and the bad "guests" are wrong. Sooner or later people will get fed up with such unfair manipulations." }-Where did we say this was a democratic forum? Things are not decided here by votes, though in this thread I did ask people for their opinions, just to hear the different viewpoints since you brought the subject up. But in the end, I'll make the decision about guest postings.

[dog]

-{ Quote: "

Where did we say this was a democratic forum? Things are not decided here by votes, though in this thread I did ask people for their opinions, just to hear the different viewpoints since you brought the subject up. But in the end, I'll make the decision about guest postings." }-

Hi LWM, ;)

Just so not to double post, but this discussion has all become a little disjointed ... I posted my opinion here --> Guest sign on's (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=264264&postcount=5) , if you are still interested?

dog - *puppy*

[Stoneheart]

"Indeed, Hayc is correct. The entire problem here is not what you want to talk about Stoneheart, it's that you insist about talking about it in the Update Alerts section. But simply put, that subforum is not for discussions. It's for posting new alerts, that's all. But you threaten to spam us if we remove your thread from that section."

No. That's absolutely not true. Initially, noone complained that the FIRST posting was posted in the wrong forum. This discussion did not start until the FIRST thread was closed (for other reasons) and the SECOND thread was opened.

I do NOT insist to talk about this issue in the Update Alerts Section. However, it was unfairl to close the topic WITHOUT telling people where they can continue the discussion. You should have linked to the general section before closing the topic in order to not suppress the discussion.

[GlobalForce]

Not getting personal, but how the post will be taken on the other end is something I've had to learn the hard way.
I've made plenty of poor decisions concerning my choice of words, a condition we as humans all face.

But these days, in an attempt to refine my posts, I spend just a little more time with the preview, reading it through,
trying to make sure it's going to be tolerable, for the other end. Like someone has just mentioned, I don't feel it's
anyone's intention to be derogatory, though with a few questionable words thrown in.....

I have no ill words for our guest, though you have probably delved the pages of this thread,
feel free.....http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=11108

GF

[Blackspear]

-{ Quote: "No More Guest's!!!! Out With The Trash!!!" }-
I would not have written such harsh words, and although I had a tendency to say yes to only those registering should be able to post, I now think it is a little more than some passing through will want to do, the innocents out there that just want some help... and help "urgently" as their world falls around them...

So, I would say, no, lets keep the place as open as possible, and just keep the eyes peeled for the trolls of this world, they are few, and fairly well far apart…

Just my 2 cents worth…

Cheers ;D

[LowWaterMark]

-{ Quote: "No. That's absolutely not true. Initially, noone complained that the FIRST posting was posted in the wrong forum." }-Yes, some members did reply to your question there, however the thread was reported to the moderating team about an hour after you opened it. It just took a while for someone to read the report and act upon it. (We don't work 24x7 here ;) ) But, Nick did post in there (reply #10) asking people to stop holding a discussion in that section.

-{ Quote: "I do NOT insist to talk about this issue in the Update Alerts Section. " }-Well, you did before. In fact, you threaten us. You said you'd spam your message in every forum section if we removed it from Update Alerts. True or not?

-{ Quote: "However, it was unfairl to close the topic WITHOUT telling people where they can continue the discussion. You should have linked to the general section before closing the topic in order to not suppress the discussion." }-Well, you have a point there. Sometimes we assume people already know how this forum works, as it is really no different than most any other online forum that have designated sections for specific subject matter.

Sounds to me like we need a do over here. Many harsh things have been posted in several different threads that perhaps people would like to take back now.

Maybe if you would start a new thread here in General Topics, specifically asking people's opinions regarding how the posting of Update Alerts should work. No harsh comments, just an honest set of questions (ie. whether AV and similar definition updates, which occur very frequently, should all be posted as new topics... and so on.) Then we could have a civil discussion about that without any threats or anyone complaining. We could remove all the previous threads and simply start over from there. Thoughts?

[Stoneheart]

I believe that the statement of GlobalForce is a very good one.

I feel that I made a mistake by starting the first topic in a somewhat ironic/sarcastic manner which probably insulted those people who are working hard to post all the update alerts.

Moreover, a special responsibility lies with the admins & mods who should be extra careful if they edit, close, move or delete a topic.

[LowWaterMark]

-{ Quote: "I believe that the statement of GlobalForce is a very good one.

I feel that I made a mistake by starting the first topic in a somewhat ironic/sarcastic manner which probably insulted those people who are working hard to post all the update alerts.

Moreover, a special responsibility lies with the admins & mods who should be extra careful if they edit, close, move or delete a topic." }-Seems like we're thinking along the same lines. See my reply made just seconds before yours above. Please comment.

[Blackspear]

-{ Quote: "I believe that the statement of GlobalForce is a very good one.

I feel that I made a mistake by starting the first topic in a somewhat ironic/sarcastic manner which probably insulted those people who are working hard to post all the update alerts.

Moreover, a special responsibility lies with the admins & mods who should be extra careful if they edit, close, move or delete a topic." }-
Nice post Stoneheart, well said...

Cheers ;D

[Stoneheart]

@LowWaterMark

"Seems like we're thinking along the same lines. See my reply made just seconds before yours above. Please comment."

I agree and I think that we should leave the topics like they currently are since this maybe a good lesson for everyone. Maybe it will help people (guests, members and mods/admins) to better understand the sensivities of their fellows.

[LowWaterMark]

Yeah, we can leave this thread and the poll thread, but, we need to remove those threads from Update Alerts, or we aren't living by our own rules.

[LowWaterMark]

I moved the first thread from Update Alerts, to this section:

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=49026

[GlobalForce]

LWM quote,-{ Quote: "Maybe if you would start a new thread here in General Topics, specifically asking people's opinions regarding how the posting of Update Alerts should work. No harsh comments, just an honest set of questions (ie. whether AV and similar definition updates, which occur very frequently, should all be posted as new topics... and so on.) Then we could have a civil discussion about that without any threats or anyone complaining. Thoughts?" }- This sounds like a really positive direction. My thought's exactly. I'm in favor!

SH quote,-{ Quote: "I agree and I think that we should leave the topics like they currently are since this maybe a good lesson for everyone. Maybe it will help people (guests, members and mods/admins) to better understand the sensivities of their fellows." }-Well said SH, I never really thought it was in you. We all know our guests can be equally sensitive ;).

Move alert threads - Yes.

Keep key threads to learn from - Yes.


GF

[Stoneheart]

Ok. Ok. But where is Part II and Part III? Have they been deleted again?

These threads included at least one important argument (e.g. that the same update alert was posted multiple times).

[Blackspear]

-{ Quote: "Ok. Ok. But where is Part II and Part III? Have they been deleted again?

These threads included at least one important argument (e.g. that the same update alert was posted multiple times)." }-
Give them a sec, they will get on top of it... ;) ;D

[LowWaterMark]

-{ Quote: "Ok. Ok. But where is Part II and Part III? Have they been deleted again?

These threads included at least one important argument (e.g. that the same update alert was posted multiple times)." }-And they also contained a lot of other negative baggage, such as your threats against this forum and negative remarks against the moderators of this forum. Wouldn't you rather start a new thread in this section with your specific points, but without all the confrontation elicited by those remarks? Besides, how many threads are we going to require people to read in order to debate the merits of one Update Alert policy. One subject - one thread.

[GlobalForce]

You may want to consider LWM's offer SH, to get rid of the negative baggage. Sounds pretty good to me.

GF

[Stoneheart]

How about re-opening the first part?

Moreover:

Part II did not include any threats at all.

As regards the negative remarks against the moderators: I think that people should get the whole picture. If they only read what you have left they will certainly believe that I must be completely mad and that the mods did everything right.

Therefore, I would suggest to re-open the first part and then I can attach Part II. What do you think?

[Acadia]

This is getting confusing ... I'm getting a headache trying to keep track of this all ... ;D

Acadia

[Blackspear]

-{ Quote: "This is getting confusing ... I'm getting a headache trying to keep track of this all ... ;D

Acadia" }-
ROFLMAO ;D

;D 8) ;D 8) ;D

[LowWaterMark]

-{ Quote: "This is getting confusing ... I'm getting a headache trying to keep track of this all ... ;D " }-That's why I'm trying to get it organized and trimming out all the duplicate posts and threads. :-\

-{ Quote: "How about re-opening the first part?" }-Actually, that's a good idea since it has been moved out of Update Alerts. We can use that thread for the discussion about Update Alert posting policies since it already has some on-topic replies.

I'm now confused as to what was in part II, so long as what's in it isn't offensive to anyone on a personal level, go ahead and reply to that first thread (once I open it).

[Cochise]

Hi there Stoneheart,

Sorry if you find some of the threads on this Forum a bit of a bind but with all due respect to you if you don't like a Thread then don't go there, if you don't like Wilders Forums don't come here, it's very simple mate, it's not rocket science. As far as I know, and I've been here, I'm pleased to say, for quite a while now, this Forum is OWNED and PAYED for by certain people with good Morals, good Standards and a genuine desire to help all and sundry, it has, and I hope, never will be a democracy, if it where, you would not be considered a minority but a trouble causing insurgent.
may I also suggest, again with all due respect and not wishing to cause offence, that maybe if your Bank Balance is as big as your Ego, you might just start your very own Forum and run it as a Democracy so that all your members can make the Rules to suit themselves. You could always pop back after a few months to let us know what an abject disaster it was.
If something as small and piddling as little particular Thread sets you off I would hate to think what you would be like with something Mega in your life.
Surely, in all honesty, you don't really think the Update Thread is important enough in your life to go to these lengths do you?
Believe me mate, life's too damn short.............


Very best Wishes to You and Yours Stoneheart,
Mods: Please delete if out of order.

Cochise, 8)

[GlobalForce]

Cochise, I'm no mod, but I find your comments on this subject civil and appropriate. Straightforward and to the point.

GF

[not_signed_on]

As somebody who has benefited from the advice distributed freely on these forums; I believe it would be a sad day if you were to limit their freedom of use to a restricted group of users.

Just my opinion.

Chris

[hayc59]

-{ Quote: "Hi there Stoneheart,

Sorry if you find some of the threads on this Forum a bit of a bind but with all due respect to you if you don't like a Thread then don't go there, if you don't like Wilders Forums don't come here, it's very simple mate, it's not rocket science. As far as I know, and I've been here, I'm pleased to say, for quite a while now, this Forum is OWNED and PAYED for by certain people with good Morals, good Standards and a genuine desire to help all and sundry, it has, and I hope, never will be a democracy, if it where, you would not be considered a minority but a trouble causing insurgent.
may I also suggest, again with all due respect and not wishing to cause offence, that maybe if your Bank Balance is as big as your Ego, you might just start your very own Forum and run it as a Democracy so that all your members can make the Rules to suit themselves. You could always pop back after a few months to let us know what an abject disaster it was.
If something as small and piddling as little particular Thread sets you off I would hate to think what you would be like with something Mega in your life.
Surely, in all honesty, you don't really think the Update Thread is important enough in your life to go to these lengths do you?
Believe me mate, life's too damn short.............


Very best Wishes to You and Yours Stoneheart,
Mods: Please delete if out of order.

Cochise, 8)" }-Cochise, Very well put and to the point exactly!!!8)

[Stoneheart]

@Cochise

In principle, you are right. I went too far.

On the other hand, sometimes the unfairness in this forum can make you angry.

For example, my provocative posting was immediately critized (which is fine). But that did not suffice. The update alert posters also tried to close my topic in order to immediately stop the discussion (which is not that fine or gentlemenlike). Probably, they felt that there is some truth in what I said and, therefore, saw the need to protect their own interests.

Moreover, after things had settled down HayC (who also wrote on 25th, 4:42 PM: "lets start over and start fresh.sign up and lets have some fun!!") felt it necessary to write on 25th, 9:51 PM the following:

"This was not about guest sign on's or deleting post!!
It actually was just a simple request by a fine update poster
to 'please' follow the rules and post accordingly.

[Comment: In fact, the request was not to discuss the topic in a different forum but to not discuss it at all. Nick said: "Would every member here please refrain from any further posting to this thread". Moreover, please note that the TOS were not violated by any of the comments posted in this thread.]

that all nothing else!!
then it was turned into a pissin match because that poster made threats and could not handle the truth.
He now has an agenda just to troll and spam and stir the pot"

Of course, noboday has complained about HayC's statement. And of course, nobody has edited it (although it may violate the TOS).

Exactly the same applies to many other threads which are closed/deleted or manipulated so that it looks that certain people (software developers, moderators, registered posters) look better than they really are. That's why people sometimes get angry.

But I agree, I went too far.

[Cochise]

Sorry Stoneheart but you don't have to explain yourself to me, I've read everything you've said and as for what you say made you angry, well I'm afraid that won't wash either, from what I can see you where already angry before you got here!.

If I may, I would just like to put your arguement into perspective, I assume you have friends so let's also assume you visit their home, would you get angry because you didn't like the colour of their curtains??!!.....would you spend the evening trying to convince them that they annoyed you and therefore they should change them to suit you?.....would you describe them as 'Undemocratic' if they told you to clear off?.....
Just thought that scenario might clear your way of thinking......

Of course it would be nice if everything in life could be changed to suit ourselves but I'm afraid it doesn't always work out that way.

I personally don't care if Posters register or not, it's of no consequence, the more the merrier I say (With emphasis on the merrier bit ;D ) but I would object to Posters swanning in from nowhere with their own Agenda and a big stick.

When I joined Wilders I agreed to abide by the Rules and that didn't mean just the ones I liked...........Dropping in to Wilders and bringing Attitude does'nt work here.......



Cheers to All, Cochise, 8)

[hayc59]

@Stone
-{ Quote: "This was not about guest sign on's or deleting post!!
It actually was just a simple request by a fine update poster
to 'please' follow the rules and post accordingly" }-Yes I said this after you would not let it GO!!
and I still see days after you still wont!!
@Cochise,Again very well put!!
When your in someone elses house have some respect and then eat a little crow and move on and up!!
Stone, I am willing to let it all go, if you can move on??!!
As far as updates section there are rules to abide by and usually they are.
Some folks make mistakes and learn from them some DON'T.

In closing I to have had many a thread closed and removed(politics u know)
did not make me mad because 'Wilders' had and still has rules on the subject matter.