Now, let's talk some TOUR de FRANCE

[slammer_JvA]

Vive l'eté du Sport ! ;D

Mdms et messieurs
Tomorrow, Saturday 3rd of July "La Grand boucle" will start again!

For all you cycling-fans, here's your place to find and share info, stats, news, gossip, chats etc etc.

@ Gerardwil (and other Dutch viewers):
If you're quick enough you can enlist for DvhN PLOEGLEIDER :)
Let the games continue!!!

Have a nice sports summer,

regards,
slammer

[gerardwil]

Hi Jan,

Welcome back and I hope you had a wonderfull time. I already expected you would come up with this thread, si I waited ;D
But I have my cyclists filled in yesterday. Just have to join the team.

Gerard

[gerardwil]

By the way same gerardwil and same proathuus

[Azn_Tweaker]

is that Armstrong dude still in? ???

[gerardwil]

yep, but my lead man this year is Ulrich

[gerardwil]

For minute by minute updates:

http://www.letour.fr/2004/us/

Also a lot of general information.
In several languages available.

[snowbound]

My favourite rider of all time,

http://www.cyclingphotos.freeserve.co.uk/cycling1/mig.html




snowbound

[slammer_JvA]

-{ Quote: "Hi Jan,

Welcome back and I hope you had a wonderfull time. I already expected you would come up with this thread, si I waited ;D
But I have my cyclists filled in yesterday. Just have to join the team.

Gerard" }-


Hahaha, great! ;)
Well, you can look for subleague "Rondje Frankriek" "GRONINGEN"
I won't be alone anymore that way.... :-\ ;D ;D
See you soon, Gerard!
regards,
slammer :lurking:

btw: Nice photo-finish this afternoon, huh? Promising for the rest of the first week... ;) KIRSIPUU WINS 1st STAGE

[gerardwil]

Hi Jan,

OK you can let me in :)
BTW one of my most expensive cyclist didn't start yesterday >:(

[hayc59]

Lance will win again!!!
6 in a row!!

[Marianna]

Kirsipuu wins first stage; Lance 48th

CHARLEROI, Belgium (AP) - Lance Armstrong played it safe in the first full stage of the Tour de France.



The five-time winner knows he has plenty of time.



Saving himself for the ordeal to come, the American finished comfortably back in the pack in 48th. He is focused on winning a record sixth straight Tour, not scrapping for victories in the hazardous and fast-paced early stages of the three-week race.



A final all-out burst of speed secured Jaan Kirsipuu's victory in the 202.5-kilometre trek that featured roads turned treacherous by rain. There were crashes, crowds, wind, punctures and a mighty finishing sprint to contend with - all factors that make the Tour's first week the part that Armstrong relishes least.






Related Info
Armstrong appreciates Crow's support

``You have to live with the crashes, and hope you don't get into one,'' said Armstrong, who is third overall.

http://www.tsn.ca/oln/news_story.asp?ID=90032&hubName=oln

Who remembers still this guy??
http://townsleyb.members.beeb.net/procycle/Coppif.htm

[ssgtmax]

Tour de Lance still running smoothly. The U.S. Postal Service team got him safely thru the cobblestone nightmare today (Tues, Jul 6th), and he's in 5th place overall - about 25 seconds behind the leader. That deficit amounts to nothing once they reach the mountain stages & time trials. Plus, the team time trial scheduled for tomorrow is a USPS strength.

Six consecutive wins would be simply off the charts. I can't think of anything else comparable in the sports world, considering the almost freakish conditioning required, the inherent risks of the race course, the punishing distance & number of days, etc. I once read that some of the mountain stages require the energy equivalent of 2.5 marathons run consecutively.

Mind-boggling to this fat-tire bicycle plodder.... :lurking: :o 8)

[ssgtmax]

Pretty familiar name in the Yellow Jersey after today's team time trial.... ;)


The Top 10 Overall After Stage Four...
After the US Postal Service team's victory in the team time trial, the top 10 overall is:
1. Lance Armstrong (USP)
2. George Hincapie (USP) at 10"
3. Floyd Landis (USP) at 16"
4. Jose Azevedo (USP) at 22"
5. Jose Luis Rubiera (USP) at 24"
6. Jose Enrique Gutierrez (PHO) at 27"
7. Viatcheslav Ekimov (USP) at 30"
8. Tyler Hamilton (PHO) at 36"
9. Santos Gonzalez (PHO) at 37"
10. Bert Grabsch (PHO) at 41"

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Australia's Robbie McKewan is now wearing the yellow jersey, sorry fellas ... :)

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "Australia's Robbie McKewan is now wearing the yellow jersey, sorry fellas ... :)" }-

Pulled the info right off the Tour's website: Le Tour de France (http://www.letour.fr/2004/us/index.html)

I thought the Aussie was in the lead yesterday. ???

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Ah bugger ... so he's lost it already? :)

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "Ah bugger ... so he's lost it already? :)" }-


Yup....but it's an honor to wear it any time during Le Tour! 8) 8)

[ssgtmax]

http://www.gifs.net/animate/cyclmove.gif

[ssgtmax]

Lance & the boys "cruised" today (Thursday, July 8th), if that's possible in this race. Here are the latest standings....


O V E R A L L S T A N D I N G S
Pos.
N°
Name
Nat.
Eq.

Time

1 129 VOECKLER Thomas FRA BLB in 20h 03' 49"
2 091 O'GRADY Stuart AUS COF at 03' 13"
3 162 CASAR Sandy FRA FDJ at 04' 06"
4 131 BACKSTEDT Magnus SWE ALB at 06' 03"
5 066 PIIL Jakob DEN CSC at 06' 58"
6 001 ARMSTRONG Lance USA USP at 09' 35"
7 005 HINCAPIE George USA USP at 09' 45"
8 006 LANDIS Floyd USA USP at 09' 51"
9 002 AZEVEDO José POR USP at 09' 57"
10 009 RUBIERA José Luis ESP USP at 09' 59"
11 025 GUTIERREZ José Enrique ESP PHO at 10' 02"
12 004 EKIMOV Viatceslav RUS USP at 10' 05"
13 021 HAMILTON Tyler USA PHO at 10' 11

[ssgtmax]

Armstrong survived an early crash today (Friday, July 9th). Did not lose any time.

O V E R A L L S T A N D I N G S
Pos.
N°
Name
Nat.
Eq.

Time

1 129 VOECKLER Thomas FRA BLB in 24h 37' 30"
2 091 O'GRADY Stuart AUS COF at 03' 01"
3 162 CASAR Sandy FRA FDJ at 04' 06"
4 131 BACKSTEDT Magnus SWE ALB at 06' 06"
5 066 PIIL Jakob DEN CSC at 06' 58"
6 001 ARMSTRONG Lance USA USP at 09' 35"
7 005 HINCAPIE George USA USP at 09' 45"
8 006 LANDIS Floyd USA USP at 09' 51"
9 002 AZEVEDO José POR USP at 09' 57"
10 009 RUBIERA José Luis ESP USP at 09' 59"

[hayc59]

-{ Quote: "Pretty familiar name in the Yellow Jersey after today's team time trial.... ;)


The Top 10 Overall After Stage Four...
After the US Postal Service team's victory in the team time trial, the top 10 overall is:
1. Lance Armstrong (USP)
2. George Hincapie (USP) at 10"
3. Floyd Landis (USP) at 16"
4. Jose Azevedo (USP) at 22"
5. Jose Luis Rubiera (USP) at 24"
6. Jose Enrique Gutierrez (PHO) at 27"
7. Viatcheslav Ekimov (USP) at 30"
8. Tyler Hamilton (PHO) at 36"
9. Santos Gonzalez (PHO) at 37"
10. Bert Grabsch (PHO) at 41"" }-Is this no suprise to you all!!!

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "Is this no suprise to you all!!!" }-

Yes, though I don't speak for all.

[hayc59]

-{ Quote: "Yes, though I don't speak for all." }-Ok i will...Lance Armstrong wins tour de france!!!

[slammer]

-{ Quote: "Ok i will...Lance Armstrong wins tour de france!!!" }-

No offense, but...don't get blinded by too much patriotism! :)
(Guess I'm allowed to speak-out of experience ;EURO2004....)

regards,
slammer_JvA (having some trouble with my cookie-management again for some reason...grmbl)

[GlobalForce]

-{ Quote: "Posted by: Azn Tweaker "is that Armstrong dude still in?"" }-
Everyone is "IN", it will all boil down to that unspecified element, T-I-M-I-N-G...

[ronjor]

Lance Armstrong's bike. (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1621048,00.asp)

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "Lance Armstrong's bike. (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1621048,00.asp)" }-

Holy cow! And here I thought the engineering involved in high perforamnce race cars was a techno-marvel.http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/bike.gif

[ronjor]

Can he do it again?? Lance Armstrong (http://tinyurl.com/6fjyn)

[iceni60]

Lance Armstrong,is fantastic.i hear is auto-biography is pretty inspirational too(overcoming cancer etc)plus he just won today.only one other could stay with him :o

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "Can he do it again?? Lance Armstrong (http://tinyurl.com/6fjyn)" }-
just read your link,i see you saw he won too

[ronjor]

Lance Armstrong's training coach. Coach (http://tinyurl.com/3op66)

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "Lance Armstrong's training coach. Coach (http://tinyurl.com/3op66)" }-
got to the end and it said I would love to see Lance win his 5th.
its last year.he may have a different coach now.but,i dont know.i still think The Tour is great. ;D

[ronjor]

-{ Quote: "got to the end and it said I would love to see Lance win his 5th.
its last year.he may have a different coach now.but,i dont know.i still think The Tour is great. ;D" }-


Picky, picky!! ;D 8)

Up to date article here. (http://tinyurl.com/49pfb)

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "Picky, picky!! ;D 8)" }-
well i was thinking of taking his advice,and maybe entering next year.but i wouldnt want Lance to have info that i dont.that might mean he'd beat me.

[o0--0o]

Lance Armstrong is a man made out of steel. And that's why he will always beat Jan Ullrich and anyone else. (Btw. ... I am German ;-)

[slammer_JvA]

-{ Quote: "Lance Armstrong is a man made out of steel. And that's why he will always beat Jan Ullrich and anyone else. (Btw. ... I am German ;-)" }-(Hmm..let's fuel this thread a bit and give it some bite :P : )

...Let's not fool ourselves and stay naiv, or over-romanticize the great achievements made in this event...imho Lance (or for that matter many more cyclists) is/are, apart from being a man of steel (I'll give him that credit...), also a man of EPO.

No man from earth can achieve these fabulous physical things for three weeks in a row (in average 200 km a day, mostly in heavy conditions-heat/climbs) without any kind of help/medicin.

It's just a matter of judgement: what to assign as (healthy?) medicin; what as (unhealthy?) drugs....

One way or the other he (and all other competitors) has/have won my deepest respect; for it takes one psychological aspect you can't get out of any bottle.... C H A R A C T E R.


Regards,
slammer

[GlobalForce]

Posted: slammer JvA
-{ Quote: ""or over-romanticize the great acievements made "" }-

The essential thing is not the triumph, but the struggle~not to have conquered, but to have fought...
I'm with you on that slammer! ;)

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "Lance Armstrong is a man made out of steel. And that's why he will always beat Jan Ullrich and anyone else. (Btw. ... I am German ;-)" }-
The guy is amazing; a Super-Human; the "Michael Jordan" of bicycling.

Having said that, how much does the selection of one's teammates have to do with winning the "Tour"? Some TV shows I've seen give me the impression the "Tour" is more of a team event, and then others make it seem more of an individual effort. :-\ Just curious since I don't know that much about the sport...

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "The guy is amazing; a Super-Human; the "Michael Jordan" of bicycling.

Having said that, how much does the selection of one's teammates have to do with winning the "Tour"? Some TV shows I've seen give me the impression the "Tour" is more of a team event, and then others make it seem more of an individual effort. :-\ Just curious since I don't know that much about the sport..." }-

I second the sentiments about Armstrong. Most of us simply have no idea what the physical demands of the Tour are like. It's like 3 weeks of marathoning....only far worse. The mountain stages are beyond torture, with climbs that avg 7-8+% grades in some cases....for miles & miles. If you've ever pulled so much as a 3-4% grade on a bike for a mile or so, you have just an inkling of what a killer feat it is. The legs & lungs want to explode; then you have to pedal HARDER! :lurking:

I'm no expert either, but it's my understanding that even a Lance Armstrong would have no chance to win without a very good team. One of the 21 stages is actually a team time trial. The team members are recruited & selected very carefully, knowing full well that each will serve as part of an elaborate 2,200-mile "escort service" (no, not THAT kind) dedicated to protecting & encouraging their star rider. ;)

[GlobalForce]

-{ Quote: "posted ssgtmax: "even a Lance Armstrong would have no chance to win without a very good team."" }- It's like this, a good team is setup to "PULL" the top rider along, a sort of pace element. A good team also "PROTECTS", meaning an interference barrier. And riders sorted for a given effort are the rabbits of the "Dog Race".

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "It's like this, a good team is setup to "PULL" the top rider along, a sort of pace element. A good team also "PROTECTS", meaning an interference barrier. And riders sorted for a given effort are the rabbits of the "Dog Race"." }-
Well, they're pulling him right to the front. I see he took the yellow jersey today! :D

[ssgtmax]

I know most people have a real life & probably don't have cable TV available during the day, but if you're going to watch any single day of Le Tour, try taking in Stage #16 tomorrow (Wednesday, July 21st). Live coverage starts on the Outdoor Life Network @ 8:30 AM Eastern (5:30 AM Pacific), with pre-race coverage beginning a half hour earlier.

This stage is a gut-buster time trial (each individual cyclist against just the clock & his endurance limits) that totals approximately 9.5 miles, 8.5 of which average a 7.9% grade that reaches L'ALPE D'HUEZ (just under 6,000' elevation), one of the most famous finish lines along Le Tour. This could be the stage where Armstrong runs everyone into the ground. :o

[GlobalForce]

Posted by D & C-{ Quote: "Well, they're pulling him right to the front. I see he took the yellow jersey today!" }- It's not so important to have the yellow jersey, but any competitor must remain in striking distance, gearing himself to "PEAK" at the proper time. True, Lance has shown tremendous strength in the hills, though he won't spend himself quite yet. Remember, the solo aspect of the sport is how well a rider knows himself.

[ronjor]

Armstrong Wins Time Trail, Extends Overall Lead in Tour De France

Jul 21, 11:56 AM (ET)

By JOHN LEICESTER

L'ALPE D'HUEZ, France (AP) - Riding through a frenzied sea of fans, Lance Armstrong dominated his rivals Wednesday and extended his overall lead in the Tour de France by winning a time trial high in the Alps.

Armstrong finished the 9.6-mile climb through 21 hairpin turns to the L'Alpe d'Huez ski station in 39 minutes, 42 seconds - the only rider under 40 minutes. He was 61 seconds faster than second-place Jan Ullrich and actually passed his closest challenger, Ivan Basso, even though the Italian started two minutes ahead of the Texan.

It was Armstrong's second consecutive stage victory and third during the Tour, and at this point, only a disaster would appear to stand in the way of his record sixth straight title when the cycling marathon ends in Paris on Sunday.


http://tinyurl.com/5kd7j

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "Armstrong finished the 9.6-mile climb through 21 hairpin turns to the L'Alpe d'Huez ski station in 39 minutes, 42 seconds - the only rider under 40 minutes.

http://tinyurl.com/5kd7j" }-

A phenomenal ride. :o I think that works out to about 14.5 mph up the side of a mountain. Try riding on flat terrain sometime and see if you can maintain 14-15 mph for any appreciable distance.

Le Tour officials need to do something about crowd control. They're gonna get a rider or fan seriously injured or killed some day.

One more killer stage in the Alps tomorrow, and then it should be pretty much the Lance Appreciation Tour the last 3 days. 8)

[ronjor]

No reason for those crowds to be in the road.

[ssgtmax]

Probably doesn't hurt Lance's motivation to have HER waitin' @ the finish line each day, too.... :o :o

[ronjor]

"All I wanna do is have some fun" Yessir!

[gerardwil]

Would be a pain for me walking, ;D

[slammer_JvA]

-{ Quote: "
Le Tour officials need to do something about crowd control. " }-Hmm... now this thread is starting to confuse me... now what are we talking about here? I thought Lance was already taking care of CROW(d)-control? ;) ;D

(Looking at those legs beats all the epo in the world when it comes to squeezing the extra stamina and motivation out of his body, I guess! :) )

"Have some fun", Lance..you've well deserved it.

slammer::)

[Dazed_and_Confused]

Regarding crowd control, I agree something does need to be done. :o What's keeping a fanatic from giving Lance a slight push? I understand he is not well liked in France. Some accuse him of using drugs, etc. (an accusation I believe is rediculous). But sooner or later some "fan" is going to get out of hand. Then what do you do? Restart the race? Stop everyone else until the victim is back on his feet? I'm just surprised there has not been an incident to date. ::)

Regarding Ms Crow, that's one thing I don't like about Lance - dumping his wife after she helped him beat the big "C". I don't know the whole story, but I sure don't like the headlines... :(

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "Some accuse him of using drugs, etc. (an accusation I believe is rediculous)." }-

I frankly think they all use chemical enhancers of one sort or another. They've just become very sophisticated @ masking it from the testing labs. So, the playing field is "even" in that sense.



-{ Quote: "Regarding Ms Crow, that's one thing I don't like about Lance - dumping his wife after she helped him beat the big "C". I don't know the whole story, but I sure don't like the headlines... :(" }-

"Dumping" is a loaded word. No one outside a marriage or long-term relationship can know what goes on inside it. There are always 2 stories, neither of which is entirely true or false.

Anyway, back to cycling....tomorrow is the last torturous stage. Barring getting KO'd by a German flag waiver or some other drunken idiot, Lance should be getting ready for another triumphant ride into Paris on Sunday.

[GlobalForce]

Posted by D & C:-{ Quote: "What's keeping a fanatic from giving Lance a slight push? I understand he is not well liked in France." }- "Crowd Control!" Maybe here in the states you have that, not across the pond. When the crowd doesn't like you, they move out into the road to increase your turn, increase your effort, they block visuals , they might even give you a push.

Mr. Armstrong has a "private contingent", though it would be inappropriate for them to display, after all, it's "their"event! Zoom, Zoom... ;)

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "...it would be inappropriate for them to display, after all, it's "their"event! Zoom, Zoom... ;)" }-Maybe, but I'm not too sure "inappropriateness" is enough to disuade some whacko trying to ensure a Frenchman wins the event. ::)

[GlobalForce]

Miss Daisy, there has not been a real contender from this country since the great Bernard Hinualt(spell check), teammate of our first "Tour Champion ", Greg LeMond(spell check). There is I'm sure, a sense of fair play exercised by the public, I mean you wouldn't want a victory by default now, would you? I'd rather lose on my terms than win on someone else's...

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "Miss Daisy, there has not been a real contender from this country since the great Bernard Hinualt(spell check), teammate of our first "Tour Champion ", Greg LeMond(spell check). There is I'm sure, a sense of fair play exercised by the public, I mean you wouldn't want a victory by default now, would you? I'd rather lose on my terms than win on someone else's..." }-

I seem to recall LeMond beating Hinault by a mere 8 seconds in '89 or thereabouts. Amazing that a 2,000+ miles race could come down to such a narrow margin. It wasn't decided until the last time trial sprint into Paris on the final day. :lurking:

I think I heard LeMond taking some interview potshots @ Armstrong recently. I think there are HUGE egos/jealousies in the sport. Probably not much different from all highly competitive sports. :-\

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "I seem to recall LeMond beating Hinault by a mere 8 seconds in '89 or thereabouts." }-

Oops :-\ ....another AARP brain fade. Should never rely solely on memory. LeMond beat Laurent Fignon in '89!

[ronjor]

-{ Quote: "Oops :-\ ....another AARP brain fade. Should never rely solely on memory. LeMond beat Laurent Fignon in '89!" }-


That's two mistakes you've made this year! What happened? ;D

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "That's two mistakes you've made this year! What happened? ;D" }-

I allow myself 2 a year. Now I have to really knuckle down thru the end of December! 8) ;D

[GlobalForce]

Posted by ssgtmax:-{ Quote: "I seem to recall LeMond beating Hinault " }-
You are correct. You can check out what led to this here (http://www.bernardhinault.com/completed%20pages/lemond.htm) . For a little insight surrounding the present tour, read what this man (http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/V4/L0/S18/E6083/sport_Lng0_Spo18_Evt6083_Sto607341.shtml) has to say.

[ronjor]

-{ Quote: "Posted by ssgtmax:
You are correct. You can check out what led to this here (http://www.bernardhinault.com/completed%20pages/lemond.htm) . For a little insight surrounding the present tour, read what this man (http://www.eurosport.com/home/pages/V4/L0/S18/E6083/sport_Lng0_Spo18_Evt6083_Sto607341.shtml) has to say." }-


Good interview.

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "Miss Daisy, there has not been a real contender from this country since the great Bernard Hinualt(spell check), teammate of our first "Tour Champion ", Greg LeMond(spell check). There is I'm sure, a sense of fair play exercised by the public, I mean you wouldn't want a victory by default now, would you? I'd rather lose on my terms than win on someone else's..." }-
Hey, Global Force!

I agree that not a single competitor in the race would want to win in this way. But I don't trust the general public to the same degree. I understand a german tourist spat on Lance just recently. While you and I would never dream of doing that to someone we didn't want to win, it just goes to show there are some real nuts out there.

[GlobalForce]

-{ Quote: "Posted by D & C: " tourist spat on Lance "" }-
This shouldn't bother Superman.

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: " I understand a german tourist spat on Lance just recently." }-

That yellow jersey is spit-proofed.... ;D ;)

[GlobalForce]

-{ Quote: "Posted by ronjor: Good interview." }- Happy to oblige.

[Dazed_and_Confused]

Watched today's event on TV. Looks like Lance and other leaders enjoyed a comfortable ride today. Not much racing.

[ronjor]

http://www.letour.fr/2004/us/index.html

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "Watched today's event on TV. Looks like Lance and other leaders enjoyed a comfortable ride today. Not much racing." }-

Beginning with his dominance of the event in '99, the final Tour stages following the mountains have pretty much become Lance Victory Laps.
Thought it was kinda funny today when he blasted out of the peloton pack, caught up to the breakaway riders to say "howdy" & then eased back to the pack again. Just showin' off, I guess.... :o ;D

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "Thought it was kinda funny today when he blasted out of the peloton pack, caught up to the breakaway riders to say "howdy" & then eased back to the pack again. Just showin' off, I guess.... :o ;D" }-
That is confusing. Ronjor posted a link to a very informative site. It seems that Lance didn't want a particular rider breaking away from the peloton. After catching him, he apparently talked him back to the peloton. It sounds as if he was saying to this other rider - you don't have a chance in he** of winning, so back off and take it easy today. I don't understand why, though.

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "Beginning with his dominance of the event in '99, the final Tour stages following the mountains have pretty much become Lance Victory Laps.
Thought it was kinda funny today when he blasted out of the peloton pack, caught up to the breakaway riders to say "howdy" & then eased back to the pack again. Just showin' off, I guess.... :o ;D" }-
he caught up because he hates the Italian rider simmioni(?spelling)who was in the group(the italian is taking him to court,for something to do with calling him a liar)
The Italian wanted to win a stage to say thank you for the support he has had from his team,concerning this.And Lance made him leave the break-away group and go back to the pack with him.
EDIT[ sorry i ment to quote Daisy

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "he caught up because he hates the Italian rider simmioni(?spelling)who was in the group(the italian is taking him to court,for something to do with calling him a liar)
The Italian wanted to win a stage to say thank you for the support he has had from his team,concerning this.And Lance made him leave the break-away group and go back to the pack with him." }-
Very interesting, iceni60! I'm going to have to read up on this. :)

[iceni60]

heres a link...
http://foxsports.news.com.au/story/0,8659,10231450-23210,00.html

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "heres a link...
http://foxsports.news.com.au/story/0,8659,10231450-23210,00.html" }-
Very nice, iceni60! ;)

Now a question regarding the following quote from the article above.

"In what was one of the most bizarre incidents of the race - the race leader rarely chase down attacks, leaving it to more lowly teammates..."

Why does the race leader rarely chase down attacks? How does one get to be a race leader if he is not intersted in leading? Can someone explain bicycling tactics please? ???

[iceni60]

he rides with his team-mates, but they do all the work, he slipstreams them. he doesnt go to the front. he has the best team because they are all great riders in their own right; and they never leave him. ie get involed in a break-away group, like they do in other teams. on the mountain stages the weaker riders in his team started the pace-setting, and dropped to the back as they couldnt maintain the pace-setting, and so on. until it was just Lance left.

[Dazed_and_Confused]

OK. But why let a teammate catch the breakaway group? What happens then? In that case, the breakaway group just gets one person larger, right? The original breakaway group + Lance's teammate that chased them down. How does that help Lance who in this scenario stays back in the Peloton? ???

[Dazed_and_Confused]

And another question regarding another quote from the same article.

"Despite not being a threat in the general classification, the Italian was soon pulled back after Armstrong's bizarre counter-attack and even gestured in frustration when he saw the American at his side."

Why would the "Italian" be so upset at Lance? Just because Lance wouldn't let him win? :o That seems like a pretty childish attitude, doesn't it? Why would anyone think they have a right to win if they are not the best rider? It's like the Italian is saying, "Oh come on - let me win for a change". Am I reading this right?

[iceni60]

that wouldnt happen in Lance's team. The reason Lance went by himself is because all the other racers knew what he was doing, and he would go back to the group afterward, and almost all support him, not the Italian. Plus the race is over now he is something like 4 minuets ahead in time(over 3 weeks,only 2 days left)if you are talking about another team, it is because The Tour is the biggest race of the year(most sponsorship,money)and a race win can generate money for the team. also if one person catches the break-away group he may have a team-mate he can work with. and another reason is, because it is such a long race, the riders in the lead group could still be 30 mins. behind the leaders, so they wont worry about them.

[Dazed_and_Confused]

Regarding my first question about why let a teammate attack the pack, I wasn't talking about today's race, but just in general. I still don't understand the advantage to the team leader if he let's a teammate attack the lead group. It still leaves the team leader in the peloton.

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "And another question regarding another quote from the same article.

"Despite not being a threat in the general classification, the Italian was soon pulled back after Armstrong's bizarre counter-attack and even gestured in frustration when he saw the American at his side."

Why would the "Italian" be so upset at Lance? Just because Lance wouldn't let him win? :o That seems like a pretty childish attitude, doesn't it? Why would anyone think they have a right to win if they are not the best rider? It's like the Italian is saying, "Oh come on - let me win for a change". Am I reading this right?" }-
thats because Lance should be professional and not concern himself with personal problems. if it was any other rider that far behind him in time, he would have just let him go. by Lance being their the Italian knew the other riders in that group would blame him when the other lead riders eventually decided that Lance wasnt coming back. Lance would only go back to the pack if the Italian came with him

[Dazed_and_Confused]

Yes, I understand why Lance chased him down, and I agree that was probably not the right thing to do. But still, I don't think anyone has a right to complain about someone else not letting him win! No one has a right to win a race unless he is the best rider. Both are wrong here.

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "Regarding my first question about why let a teammate attack the pack, I wasn't talking about today's race, but just in general. I still don't understand the advantage to the team leader if he let's a teammate attack the lead group. It still leaves the team leader in the peloton." }-
the only team that will not do that is Lance's, they are only there for him. other teams do it for the glory of a stage win.

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "Yes, I understand why Lance chased him down, and I agree that was probably not the right thing to do. But still, I don't think anyone has a right to complain about someone else not letting him win! No one has a right to win a race unless he is the best rider. Both are wrong here." }-
you are right. but, its not the done thing. to a racer it is bizarre
EDIT the only reason he did it was because he does not like the man. nothing to do with racing

[Dazed_and_Confused]

OK. Regarding today's race, if Lance were to have stayed in the breakaway group, why would that have prompted others in the Peloton to chase the breakaway group down? If your in the Peloton, and NOT in the breakaway group, your not going to win the stage anyway. So what does it matter where Lance is?

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "Regarding my first question about why let a teammate attack the pack, I wasn't talking about today's race, but just in general. I still don't understand the advantage to the team leader if he let's a teammate attack the lead group. It still leaves the team leader in the peloton." }-
they are doing it for themselves, i think there's a song in there somewhere, to maybe get a win, and for the team to get the team noticed. but maybe not for their team leader.

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "OK. Regarding today's race, if Lance were to have stayed in the breakaway group, why would that have prompted others in the Peloton to chase the breakaway group down? If your in the Peloton, and NOT in the breakaway group, your not going to win the stage anyway. So what does it matter where Lance is?" }-
because the riders that are 5-10 behind Lance have a duty to race him, it's their job. and the German racer Jan Ullrich, he is thought of as the greatest talent in the world, he's just not as strong mentally as Lance, has a very outside chance of beating Lance in the time-trial, when they set off by themselves and race against the clock tomorrow(today)

[iceni60]

time-trial Lance and Ullrich, next stage...
http://www.sportsline.com/cycling/stages/details/19

[big ed]

I'm still trying to figure out where the US Postal Service got the money to sponser the Armstrong team in the first place.

big ed

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "I'm still trying to figure out where the US Postal Service got the money to sponser the Armstrong team in the first place.

" }-

Do you buy stamps?? I say that only half in jest. I think lot of folks in the ol' USA have asked your very question of themselves....and probably even louder to the USPS. The Service always carps about deficits and then requests rate increases; yet money magically appears for big-time sponsorship of pro bicycling.

Don't know whether or not there's a connection, but I did hear in Friday's TV coverage that the USPS is pulling out of Le Tour after this year. ;)

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "Do you buy stamps?? " }-
So true! ::) Been waiting for Detusch Post to begin sponsoring a team...;D ;D

[gerardwil]

Not on the moon, but this Armstrong did it today again in France.

[Dazed_and_Confused]

And it wasn't even close. Wow.

[iceni60]

it was sad to see the French rider, Voeckler, lose his white jersey.
the white jersey (http://www.angelfire.com/realm/cvccbikers/tour/eddy/white.htm)

[gerardwil]

-{ Quote: "it was sad to see the French rider, Voeckler, lose his white jersey.
the white jersey (http://www.angelfire.com/realm/cvccbikers/tour/eddy/white.htm)" }-
If he takes care of his body we will hear more from him the years to come.

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "If he takes care of his body we will hear more from him the years to come." }-
you are probably right :D

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "If he takes care of his body we will hear more from him the years to come." }-
Yeah, but he may need bodyguards in France. ::)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1541&e=1&u=/afp/cycling_tour_fra

[ronjor]

I heard an interesting comment on NPR today regarding the top bicycle riders.

They have the genetic ability to pump huge amounts of blood through their heart each minute. They stated "up to seven gallons a minute".

Anyone else heard of this?

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "I heard an interesting comment on NPR today regarding the top bicycle riders.

They have the genetic ability to pump huge amounts of blood through their heart each minute. They stated "up to seven gallons a minute".

Anyone else heard of this?" }-
Miguel Indurain reigned so completely over the Tour that he won five in a row...
Indurain possessed an extraordinary lung capacity, a resting heart rate—28 beats per minute—that would qualify most humans as dead
Tour de France Living Legends (http://outside.away.com/outside/features/200407/tour_de_france_legends_3.html)

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: " a resting heart rate—28 beats per minute—that would qualify most humans as dead
" }-

Dead....or not human. :lurking:

[ronjor]

Six!

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "Six!
" }-


A phenomenal athletic/psychological/medical achievement. It will take the rear view mirror of history to analyze it properly and put it into proper context. ;)

[ronjor]

Tour de France's podium girls bring beauty to sport

Beauty has its place, and in the Tour de France it's atop the podium like icing on a cake.
Much like the Winston girls of auto racing and the ring-card girls of boxing, the Tour de France's podium girls bring beauty to the sport.

Podium (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/headline/features/2702478)

[Close_Hauled]

-{ Quote: "Tour de France's podium girls bring beauty to sport

Beauty has its place, and in the Tour de France it's atop the podium like icing on a cake.
Much like the Winston girls of auto racing and the ring-card girls of boxing, the Tour de France's podium girls bring beauty to the sport.

Podium (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/headline/features/2702478)" }-What! No pictures! Pictures man, I wanna see pictures!

[iceni60]

A Podium Girl Gone Bad (http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour.php?id=photos/2003/tour03/diaries/PGGB/adieu)

[Close_Hauled]

-{ Quote: "A Podium Girl Gone Bad (http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour.php?id=photos/2003/tour03/diaries/PGGB/adieu)" }-He looks like he can't wait to get those two home! :P

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "He looks like he can't wait to get those two home! :P " }-
yes,i bet they're good cooks ;D

[Close_Hauled]

More podium girls... :o

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/jul04/sachsen_tour/stage5/04sachsentour_bestteam04stage05ax.jpg

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "What! No pictures! Pictures man, I wanna see pictures!" }-

http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/signs/17.gif :o ;D

[ronjor]

Tough crowd here today! ;D 8)

http://tinyurl.com/5ppur

[Close_Hauled]

-{ Quote: "Tough crowd here today! ;D 8)

http://tinyurl.com/5ppur" }-I just see a bunch of sweaty men! We want women! :'(

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "I just see a bunch of sweaty men! We want women! :'( " }-
gallery 1 slide no.10 ;)

[Close_Hauled]

-{ Quote: "gallery 1 slide no.10 ;)" }- ::) Ya gotta make me work for it! Don't ya! Sigh...
http://a1608.g.akamai.net/7/1608/1365/df946972622292/away.com/images/travel_photo_gallery/tour_04/gallery01/gallery10.jpg
;D

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "gallery 1 slide no.10 ;)" }-

Jeez...getting one pic is tougher than climbing L'Alpe D'Huez! :-\

[ronjor]

Be grateful for the pics you do get!! 8)

[Close_Hauled]

-{ Quote: "Jeez...getting one pic is tougher than climbing L'Alpe D'Huez! :-\" }-I'd like to know what's with the polo shirts! Where are the bikinis! Come on!!!

[ssgtmax]

-{ Quote: "Be grateful for the pics you do get!! 8)" }-

At my age I'm grateful for sunrises & a pulse.... ::)

Back to Le Tour: I see that the Discovery Channel will replace the U.S. Postal Service as sponsors in '05. Gee, I wonder what cable channel the U.S. TV coverage will be on ???

Of course, it won't much matter if Super Lance decides to spend more time @ home with the 3 kiddies in Texas.

[iceni60]

-{ Quote: "I'd like to know what's with the polo shirts! Where are the bikinis! Come on!!!" }-
here you go. have fun
bikini (http://buy.overstock.com/images/products/T404412.jpg) :o :o :o

[slammer_JvA]

-{ Quote: "here you go. have fun
bikini (http://buy.overstock.com/images/products/T404412.jpg) :o :o :o" }-
Hmm... the speed this is taking, I wonder when Paul starts to drop by (and interfere?) heheheh ;) ;D
Meanwhile: Enjoy, you guys! ;D ;D 8)

[gerardwil]

That is not much more than a smiley :lurking:

[Close_Hauled]

-{ Quote: "Hmm... the speed this is taking, I wonder when Paul starts to drop by (and interfere?) heheheh ;) ;D
Meanwhile: Enjoy, you guys! ;D ;D 8)" }-It's a slow day. People aren't breaking their computers fast enough.

[Dazed_and_Confused]

Lance is awesome, almost super-human!

The mountain stages are real exciting to watch. :o All of the riders are in excellent physical condition - it's amazing they can do what they do for so many miles.

I was glad to see HINCAPIE get a win today. :) But I feel sorry for VINOKOUROV - his T-MOBILE team really gave him the shaft yesterday. >:( Hopefully he will ride for team Discovery next year.

And as much as I dislike complementing the French, I have to say what a beautiful country they have, and what a fine job they have done with this race. :D Keep up the good work!

[BlueZannetti]

Ah, the TdF, the one sports event I actually look forward to each year...

Lance is an amazing athlete, and I'm a fan of his, but I really wouldn't be upset if one of the other GC contenders was able to mount a successful attack - all of them are absolutely amazing. I guess I have a soft spot for Ullrich. In any other time he would be the dominant cyclist. As it is, he's still staying with the leaders and with a strong timetrial a podium position is within reach.

While the fearlessness of Vinokourov is really something to marvel at, what about Rasmussen? The first time I heard his name it was like where did he come from?

I was nice to see Hincapie finally get a stage win. His classics performance shows he has stage wins in him, aside from the fact that he is the absolute consummate domestique.

I guess I don't see Vinokuorov joining Discovery next year. He's certainly showcasing his talent for a leader role, but it really looks like that slot on Discovery could be for Popovych. He would be a great addition if he could handle a support role. I guess that's what puzzles me on T-Mobile. Ullrich is the leader, and is clearly the strongest rider on that team, but the team doesn't focus on him like Discovery does on Lance. It's like some of the other teams that came in with multiple "leaders", they end up being a house divided.

In any event, this years Tour has been fabulous thus far, and only a week to go..

Blue

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: " ...While the fearlessness of Vinokourov is really something to marvel at, what about Rasmussen?" }-

Yes, Blue. I like Rasmussen, too. Sorry to see him fall back to third today. That stage he won was exciting. I think it surprised Lance, too.

-{ Quote: "...Lance is an amazing athlete... " }-

He sure is. They all are! :o

I know I tried keeping up, but had to sit up and take my helmet off after only two K. ;D ;D

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "I know I tried keeping up, but had to sit up and take my helmet off after only two K. ;D ;D" }-We're all in that boat. The only way I'd keep up is if they were climbing and I was going downhill :), although the physics of this is a little dicey.

Or maybe a tether to one of the support cars would work...

Blue

[Dazed_and_Confused]

Even Lance's competitors are now admitting it's all over except for the drinking! ;D And another of his teammates gets win.

[FanJ]

Darn my TV crashed :-[ :'(

First year in many that I could not follow the Tour on TV >:(

[Dazed_and_Confused]

Sorry to hear that FanJ. :'( The mountain stages are the best, IMO. And the are all behind us now. You've got just under 12 months to get it fixed!

[FanJ]

Heya Daisey :)

-{ Quote: "The mountain stages are the best, IMO. " }-

Agreed ! ;)

-{ Quote: "You've got just under 12 months to get it fixed!" }-
I hope so.......


Hey, Wasn't it Jooske who said:
Armstrong has not only strong arms but also strong legs ;) ;)

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "....Hey, Wasn't it Jooske who said:
Armstrong has not only strong arms but also strong legs ;) ;)" }-

Ha! ;D Jooske is always so insightful. ;)

[slammer_JvA]

The relief:

2 more days and finally, finally, fiiiiiiiiiiinaly:

"THE KING IS DEAD: LONG LIVE THE (new) KING"


It has been a fabulous achievement, winning 7 years in a row, and yes he's a master strategic and determination is his middle name; ok ok, all the credits where credits are due, but for pete's sake it was really getting...

:P B O R I N G :P

...in Michael Schumacher-style. :(

Congrats Lance, thumbs up my man, but now...beat it. :P ;D

This must have been the most boring Tour de France in ages...>:(

Really, I can't wait for next year, re-newed competition and...
a new King!

Salut!
slammer8)

[hayc59]

-{ Quote: " Lance Armstrong closed out his amazing career with a seventh consecutive Tour de France victory Sunday - and did it a little earlier than expected.Because of wet conditions, race organizers stopped the clock as Armstrong and the main pack entered Paris. Although riders were still racing, with eight laps of the Champs-Elysees to complete, organizers said that Armstrong had officially won." }-
http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/story/3824548

[ronjor]

Cheers for a real competitor! :D

[snowbound]

Oops, could be trouble for the champ...

Tour de France director: Armstrong 'fooled' sports world
PARIS (AP) — Sounding convinced that Lance Armstrong is guilty of doping, the director of the Tour de France said "we were all fooled" and the seven-time champion owes an explanation for "proven scientific facts" from a newspaper report alleging he cheated to win cycling's most prestigious event.

Jean-Marie Leblanc's comments appeared in the French sports daily L'Equipe on Wednesday, a day after the newspaper reported that six urine samples provided by Armstrong during the '99 Tour tested positive for the red blood cell-booster EPO.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2005-08-24-tour-director_x.htm?POE=SPOISVA


snowbound

[Dazed_and_Confused]

If you read further, it states that Armstrong admitted to being given EPO as a treatment for his cancer. I stand by Armstrong. ;)

[snowbound]

-{ Quote: "If you read further, it states that Armstrong admitted to being given EPO as a treatment for his cancer. I stand by Armstrong. ;)" }-
I hope that's all it was for but can't help but be skeptical with the rampant performance enhancing scandals lately.

This will play itself out one way or the other...


snowbound

[Trekk]

Some people are just mad because he spanks them so easily :) Be real people, the man had cancer; he won because he works his fanny off.

[slammer_JvA]

As long as I can remember following cycling, the (suspicion of) taking of performance-enhancing drugs -or however you would call the 'wrong' stuff- has always been related to this sport in particular.

I have a very simple solution for this problem:

why not decide to take the dope out of the forbidden / criminal / banned circuit?
In other words: allow all athletes to take whatever they wish, make it their own grown-up responsibility; let them ruin their lifes if they want to.
If you believe in the naive idea of something like the existing of "clean sports", you also believe in Utopia...

Serious, imho this is the only way to get some form of truly honest competition in cycling going again.

Let it be absolutely clear that even wíth EPO, drugs etc etc these guys still have to pedal those mountains for thousands of miles, step by step.
It's still an amazing performance of character, determination, and stamina, both physical ánd -not to be forgotten!- psychological.
For which I admire them ( and also think they're completely nuts... :-\ ;D )

(Just my opinion.)
Regards,
slam

[Trekk]

I 100 percent agree with that! The athletes dont need babysitters telling them what is, or isnt safe for them. If they want to take steroids and die at a young age, why is it anyones business but theirs? If they werent banned, and everyone could get them, the advantage would be so slight that I bet nobody would touch them.

[Primrose]

Armstrong Rips Critics Over Doping Report

By JIM LITKE Thursday, August 25, 2005 2:05 PM CDT






Lance Armstrong climbed down off his bike a month ago. His counterattacking skills, though, remain as sharp as ever. A day after the director of the Tour de France said the seven-time champion "fooled" race officials and the sporting world by doping, Armstrong responded to the growing controversy with harsh words for everyone connected to a report in L'Equipe, the French sports daily that made the original accusation.

"Where to start?" Armstrong mused during a conference call Wednesday from Washington. "This has been a long, love-hate relationship between myself and the French."

He went on to lambaste L'Equipe and question the science and ethics of the suburban Paris laboratory that stored frozen samples from the 1999 tour, tested them only last year and leaked the results used in the newspaper's report. He even suggested officials of the Tour and sports ministries who were involved in putting the story together could wind up facing him in court.

"Right now," Armstrong said, "we're considering all our options."

But a moment later, he added, "In the meantime, it would cost a million and a half dollars and a year of my life. I have a lot better things to do with the million and a half ... a lot better things I can do with my time. Ultimately, I have to ask myself that question."

What convinced Armstrong to go on the offensive were remarks earlier Wednesday by tour director Jean-Marie Leblanc. He said L'Equipe's report that six urine samples Armstrong provided during his first tour win in 1999 tested positive for the red blood cell-booster EPO had convinced him the cyclist had cheated.


"The ball is now in his court," Leblanc told the newspaper. "Why, how, by whom? He owes explanations to us and to everyone who follows the Tour. Today, what L'Equipe revealed shows me that I was fooled. We were all fooled."

But in one sense, Armstrong felt the same way, saying he talked to Leblanc on the telephone after the tour director spoke to L'Equipe, but before those remarks were published.

"I actually spoke to him for about 30 minutes and he didn't say any of that stuff to me personally," Armstrong said. "But to say that I've 'fooled' the fans is preposterous. I've been doing this a long time. We have not just one year of only 'B' samples; we have seven years of 'A' and 'B' samples. They've all been negative."

Armstrong has insisted throughout his career that he has never taken drugs to enhance his performance. In his autobiography, "It's Not About the Bike," he said he was administered EPO during his chemotherapy treatment to battle cancer.

"It was the only thing that kept me alive," he wrote.

Armstrong questioned the validity of testing samples frozen six years ago, how those samples were handled since, and how he could be expected to defend himself when the only confirming evidence _ the 'A' sample used for the 1999 tests _ no longer existed. He also charged officials at the suburban Paris lab with violating World Anti-Doping Agency code for failing to safeguard the anonymity of any remaining 'B' samples it had.

"It doesn't surprise me at all that they have samples. Clearly they've tested all of my samples since then to the highest degree. But when I gave those samples," he said, referring to 1999, "there was not EPO in those samples. I guarantee that."

Two anti-doping authorities said urine samples from 1999, if stored properly, still could produce legitimate EPO test results.

"I believe they may well, if they have been properly stored _ without access to outside people so they cannot be tampered with. Also in a refrigerator or deep frozen," Arne Ljungqvist, chairman of the International Olympic Committee's medical commission, said Wednesday in a phone interview with The Associated Press.

Christiane Ayotte, director of Montreal's anti-doping laboratory, said EPO can disappear from samples within a few months. But it cannot be formed in the sample over time if it was not originally there.

"I have no doubt that if the lab in Paris found EPO, it was there," she said in an e-mail interview with The Associated Press. "Let's put it differently, when recombinant (synthetic) EPO is detected, it is because it's in the sample. Time will decrease the amount of EPO, not increase or form it."

EPO, formally known as erythropoietin, was on the list of banned substances when Armstrong won his first Tour, but there was no effective test to detect the drug. But Armstrong's assurances he never took performance-enhancing drugs has been good enough for his sponsors. A previously scheduled meeting with several brought him to Washington, and he said afterward, "We haven't seen any damage."

But Armstrong acknowledged the same was likely true at L'Equipe.

"Obviously, this is great business for them," he said. "Unfortunately, I'm caught in the cross-hairs.

"And at the end of day," he added, "I think that's what it's all about ... selling newspapers. And it sells."

AP Sports Writers Chris Lehourites in London and Rob Gloster in New York contributed to this report.

http://www.brenhambanner.com/articles/2005/08/25/ap/sports/d8c70c1g0.txt

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "Armstrong Rips Critics Over Doping Report..." }-

And he should.

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "And he should." }-Quite right. This is one area where I actually do qualify as someone who is technically knowledgable in the area. There's simply too many unknowns here. There needs to be a very clear chain of custody for the samples. Despite the potential controversy, I've heard very little of the steps taken over the past 6 years to preserve the integrity, both chemical and custodial, of these samples beyond reproach. I haven't noted any viable technical review of the results - and yes, good labs can mishandle the analysis, and yes, mishandle it the same way on multiple samples. It's done plenty of times on a daily basis - that why there are "B" samples. Right now it's tabloid science at its worst.

The thing about EPO is that you can look at secondary physiological markers - I don't recall Armstrong's hematocrit being within too close proximity to the level suggesting inappropriate EPO use. I know, it's indirect and saline extenders can moderate the measured level..

At this point, the L'Equip story is environmental noise. No more.

Blue

[slammer_JvA]

-{ Quote: "Quite right. This is one area where I actually do qualify as someone who is technically knowledgable in the area. There's simply too many unknowns here. " }-
I believe you.


-{ Quote: "The thing about EPO is that you can look at secondary physiological markers - I don't recall Armstrong's hematocrit being within too close proximity to the level suggesting inappropriate EPO use. I know, it's indirect and saline extenders can moderate the measured level..

At this point, the L'Equip story is environmental noise. No more.

Blue" }-

And on this I tend to agree as well; those bl**dy French (Excusez les mots...NOT!) have been on a filthy manhunt to discredit all Lance Armstrongs' achievements from the day he won his first TdF.
It's just pathetic...they're a bunch of very sour losers imho...

I'm no expert, yet from personal experience with running marathons I do know that it's a very difficult thing to keep your condition at toplevel without taking any form of supplements. In other words: NO ordinary human being can allow 'attacks' on such scale on his/her body without compromising his/her health.
(And with 'attacks' I mean: topsport; the extensive training and competing; putting yourself to the limits)
It's really just a matter where one draws the line of those supplements being "right", or "wrong".
Obviously, there are products that are clearly threatening, yet there are also so many 'drugs' that exist in the grey area.....Who's to decide, in the end?

And it's this discussion that is ruining the sports.
In most cases it's just a matter of discredit and conflict of interest (ie $$$$....)
I'm really bored with it.

Regards,
slam

[The Hammer]

What do people think of the current controversy?

[HandsOff]

I think that it is in very poor taste to try to tarnish the results of a race that took place in 1999.

In principle I can understand testing for banned substances but if there should be some limit to the period of time (30 days should be more than enough) that whoever is responsible for administering the tests have, after which time they should make a final determination.

Who's next? Bruce Jenner? Mark Spitz?


- HandsOff

[big ed]

-{ Quote: "What do people think of the current controversy?" }-

This is already being hashed out in the 'Tour d' France' thread. Anyways, I'd wait a couple more weeks before getting into it.

Play on, Big ed

[The Hammer]

-{ Quote: "This is already being hashed out in the 'Tour d' France' thread. Anyways, I'd wait a couple more weeks before getting into it.

Play on, Big ed" }-
So I see. Perhaps this thread should be closed?

[big ed]

-{ Quote: "I think that it is in very poor taste to try to tarnish the results of a race that took place in 1999.

In principle I can understand testing for banned substances but if there should be some limit to the period of time (30 days should be more than enough) that whoever is responsible for administering the tests have, after which time they should make a final determination.

Who's next? Bruce Jenner? Mark Spitz?


- HandsOff" }-

Hey, it's been a slow news week! What is the 'Statute of Limitations' on cheating anyways?

Biking in Brussels, big ed

[wildman]

>:( The Wildman could get into trouble over this one. As I have said before, I am rather blunt.

Get over it France, ya lost seven times in a row. This smacks of nothing but sour grapes, or is that your wine that went sour?

Thanks
Wildman

[The Hammer]

The owners of the Tour also own the newspaper in question. Still continuity of evidence has not been observed here.

[big ed]

-{ Quote: "The owners of the Tour also own the newspaper in question. Still continuity of evidence has not been observed here." }-

Are you?...Could you be?...Yesss...You must be implying that a newspaper owned by interested parties would stoop to such dastardly doings.

I'm taken aback!!.......NOT!!

Reading more and enjoying it less, big ed

[snowbound]

-{ Quote: ">:( The Wildman could get into trouble over this one. As I have said before, I am rather blunt.

Get over it France, ya lost seven times in a row. This smacks of nothing but sour grapes, or is that your wine that went sour?

Thanks
Wildman" }-
lol,

They still haven't gotten over Freedom Fries yet. ;) ;D



snowbound

[The Hammer]

-{ Quote: "Are you?...Could you be?...Yesss...You must be implying that a newspaper owned by interested parties would stoop to such dastardly doings.

I'm taken aback!!.......NOT!!

Reading more and enjoying it less, big ed" }-
I also think Dick Pound who is Canadian by the way as am I. Has had to much to say too soon. Justice must not only be done,but must be seen to be done. Whether Armstong is guilty or not. His self appointed judges speaking so soon have damaged their own credibility and any review by the WADA or the Tour will now have the appearance of a show trial.

[Primrose]

I guess keeping seven years of frozen wee wee is the norm over there until they find a way to translate it. ;D These seven lovely ladies also Tour. I can't put my finger on it just now..but going "number one" has never been so fun. ;D

I just can't wait until they find a NEW way to test the other 6 years. By the time they are done..we could have history in the unmaking.

[Primrose]

Armstrong Gets Backing From USA Cycling
Aug 26 4:17 PM US/Eastern

By JIM VERTUNO
AP Sports Writer

Lance Armstrong received strong backing Friday from cycling's domestic governing body, which said accusations against the seven-time Tour de France champion are "completely without credibility."

"Preposterous is a strong word, but it is warranted in this case," said Gerard Bisceglia, chief executive officer of USA Cycling.

Armstrong has denied reports in the French media this week that he used a banned blood booster in his first tour victory in 1999. The sports newspaper L'Equipe reported that new tests on six urine samples Armstrong provided during the 1999 tour resulted in positive results for the red blood cell-booster EPO.

"Lance Armstrong is one of the most tested athletes in the history of sport and he has come up clean every single time," Bisceglia said. "This kind of years-ago testing of a single sample with new technology is completely without credibility."

"What's worse is that Lance cannot defend himself because there is no mechanism for final resolution," he added.

Although Armstrong has not said if he'll pursue legal action, Bisceglia said USA Cycling will support him in whatever way he chooses to "denounce these accusations."

On Thursday, Armstrong lashed out at the French lab that produced the findings.

"There's a setup here and I'm stuck in the middle of it," Armstrong told The Associated Press. "I absolutely do not trust that laboratory," he said.

Armstrong spoke after Dick Pound, head of the World Anti-Doping Agency, said officials had received the lab results and would review them. Armstrong also said that while Pound might trust the lab that tested the samples, "I certainly don't."

On Thursday night, Armstrong elaborated on that distrust on CNN's "Larry King Live."

"A guy in a Parisian laboratory opens up your sample, you know, Jean Francois so-and-so, and he tests it _ nobody's there to observe, no protocol was followed _ and then you get a call from a newspaper that says `We found you to be positive six times for EPO.' Well, since when did newspapers start governing sports?"

Although frustrated by the report and the difficulty of proving his case, Armstrong told King he is at ease.

"All I can do is come on this stage and tell my story and be honest. I've always done that," he said. "Since this stuff's rolled out, I sleep great at night .... I don't have a problem looking at myself in the mirror."

Armstrong questions the handling of samples frozen six years ago. He also wonders how he is to defend himself when the only confirming evidence _ the 'A' sample used for the 1999 tests _ no longer exists.

He also charged officials at the suburban Paris lab with violating WADA code for failing to safeguard the anonymity of any remaining 'B' samples.

Pound said the French report appears stronger than previous accusations against Armstrong.

"If he had one, you could say it was an aberration," Pound said. "When you get up to six, there's got to be some explanation."

Pound said the lab is accredited by the International Olympic Committee. He also questioned the need for two samples to confirm a positive test.

"You can count on the fingers of one hand the times a B sample has not confirmed the result of the A sample," Pound said. "It's almost always a delaying tactic."

Armstrong said that contradicts WADA's own policy.

"For the head of the agency to say he actually doesn't believe in the code ... if your career is riding on the line, wouldn't you want a B sample?" Armstrong told the AP. "The French have been after (me) forever, and `Whoops!' there's no B sample? The stakes are too high."
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/26/D8C7NHMO0.html

[Primrose]

Texas scientist defends Armstrong


By Suzanne Halliburton / (c) Copyright Cox News Service


AUSTIN, Texas -- A University of Texas scientist is coming to the defense of Lance Armstrong amid allegations that the Tour de France champion used a banned substance to help him win in 1999.

Ed Coyle, director of UT's Human Performance Laboratory, studied the physiology of Armstrong from 1992 to 1999. He said Thursday that Armstrong's record victory streak and the edge he has on other cyclists can be explained by science and not the taking of erythropoietin, or EPO, the blood booster reportedly found in his urine samples from 1999.

Coyle, a nutritional adviser to the International Olympic Committee and a former editor of the International Journal of Sports Medicine, concluded that the cycling champion showed an 18 percent improvement during the seven years he studied Armstrong by significantly increasing his slow-twitch muscle fibers, losing body mass and taking a modern approach to a sport that embraces obsolete training ideas.

"Again, before searching for explanations in conspiracy and cheating, you should first look at human nature for signs of ignorance and difficulty with change," Coyle said via e-mail Thursday.

Earlier this summer, Coyle published his observations of Armstrong in the June edition of "The Journal of Applied Physiology." European reporters have searched out Coyle this week to comment on the report in the Paris newspaper L'Equipe that alleged Armstrong tested positive for EPO six times in 1999. The newspaper reported that a laboratory outside Paris had tested the frozen Tour de France urine samples and that documents link six of the positive tests to Armstrong.

Armstrong took the offensive after the stories were published, stating that in 1999 "when I gave those samples, there was not EPO in those samples. I guarantee that."

The samples tested were all B, or backup, specimens. The A tests were discarded after testing in 1999. There is now nothing left to retest.

"They've put Lance in Pandora's Box," said Bill Stapleton, Armstrong's attorney. "And he can't defend himself."

Coyle said none of the physiological changes that led to Armstrong's seven victories could be linked to a use of an illegal chemical. EPO is a drug legally prescribed for patients with kidney problems and those undergoing chemotherapy. The substance helps build oxygen-carrying red blood cells. Cyclists and cross-country skiers have illegally used EPO to better endurance, but Coyle estimated that taking the drug gives someone only a 3 percent to 5 percent improvement in performance.

Cyclists who use EPO inject the drug during training and not during racing, which is why the World Anti Doping Agency has been focusing so much attention on out-of-competition testing.

Armstrong told the Austin American-Statesman on Thursday that he has donated "close to six figures" of his own salary to the international cycling federation for the specific use of bettering a test for EPO.

He was the focus of six out -of-competition tests earlier this year, he said. Armstrong estimated that he's been tested at least 300 times in his seven-year winning streak.

"We have seven years of 'A' and 'B' samples," Armstrong said. "They've all been negative."

During Coyle's seven-year study, Armstrong dropped 15 pounds and trained hard enough to increase the percentage of slow-twitch muscle fibers in his body from 60 percent to 80 percent. Typically, the best endurance athletes are naturally blessed with more slow-twitch fibers, which need less energy to function at a high level for long periods of time. Most cyclists are in the 60 percent range while non-athletes are between 40 and 50 percent.

"I'm certain these improvements have nothing to do with blood or EPO, but are due simply to seven years of training and a modest diet in the spring months before the Tour de France," Coyle said.

Coyle also said Armstrong's two main rivals -- Germany's Jan Ullrich and Italy's Ivan Basso -- do not come into the Tour with the same conditioning as Armstrong. Ullrich, the 1997 champion, usually comes into the Tour overweight and is at his best in the race's final week. Basso, who finished second to Armstrong this July, rode the three-week Giro d'Italia in May, which may have sapped his strength.

"What I'm saying is that Armstrong's European competitors are beating themselves by entering the race tired and unprepared to climb," Coyle said.


http://www.detnews.com/2005/moresports/0508/27/more-294723.htm

[Dazed_and_Confused]

This is really sad. >:( The tour is such a wonderful sporting event. It was actually one thing I could point to that raised my opinion of French in general. It just goes to show you these people in general (There do seem to be some fine exceptions, such as Hammer ;) ) are a bunch of low-lifes.

Edit: Comment removed by me.

[Primrose]

-{ Quote: "This is really sad. >:( The tour is such a wonderful sporting event. It was actually one thing I could point to that raised my opinion of French in general. It just goes to show you these people in general (There do seem to be some fine exceptions, such as Hammer ;) ) are a bunch of low-lifes.

If I was in charge of this country, and had to decide whether to invade Iraq or France, I'd be owning some prime vineyards before long. ;D" }-

OT a little history since maybe you already own them ;D

A good read would be...

George Ordish, The Great Wine Blight. 1987

if you can find a copy.


http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/faculty/granett/phypage.htm

I know that the Chilean vintners claim to have the only "authentic" French cabernet sauvignon remaining in the world, since the French vines transplanted in Chile thus escaped the terrible blight that wreaked such havoc in France in the nineteenth century. (As an historical aside, do you know where most of the transplants that rebuilt the French vintages came from? Sit down and get a firm grip, all you hoity-toity types: They came from California!)

http://jamesburnett.com/wine.htm

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "...do you know where most of the transplants that rebuilt the French vintages came from? ...They came from California!)" }-

Too funny, Primrose! ;D I should have known. ::)

Actually, I prefer a fine bottle of Laphroig Scotch Whiskey (from Scotland) or just about any Bourbon Whiskey from right here in Kentucky. :)

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "This is really sad. >:( The tour is such a wonderful sporting event. It was actually one thing I could point to that raised my opinion of French in general. It just goes to show you these people in general (There do seem to be some fine exceptions, such as Hammer ;) ) are a bunch of low-lifes.

If I was in charge of this country, and had to decide whether to invade Iraq or France, I'd be owning some prime vineyards before long. ;D" }-Yes, it's a wonderful sporting event, and the many days I've spent in Cannes and Paris are among the best of my Euro business travels and France as a country remains one of my favorite places to visit.

Competitive sporting events always brings this out in the passionate locals. I have little use for the folks behind the testing and partial reporting of the results without some objective external review, but the people in the street are simply following their hearts...

Blue

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "...France as a country remains one of my favorite places to visit... I have little use for the folks ..." }-

I agree 100%, Blue. :) From what I've seen on TV (while watching this event), the country is very beautiful. That is why (as I stated above) I would like to own some land there.

[big ed]

-{ Quote: " (As an historical aside, do you know where most of the transplants that rebuilt the French vintages came from? Sit down and get a firm grip, all you hoity-toity types: They came from California!)

http://jamesburnett.com/wine.htm" }-

Hey Primrot,

I have a left hip that is pretty non-existant. You think mebbe one of them there transplants would work for me? (not the 'Freedom' ones though)

Limping in Laconia, l'il ed

Ps...How come nobody is defending Raffy Palmiero, after he swore under oath to none other than the seekers of 'TRUTH'.....The US Congress! (duh)

Star atheletes are just that! Other virtues are not required! ::)

[snowbound]

-{ Quote: "I agree 100%, Blue. :) From what I've seen on TV (while watching this event), the country is very beautiful. " }-
lol,

It is but one thing i remember when i was in Paris is streets that smelled of urine and where also full of dog crap. :o

Pooches were everywhere along with their droppings.

Nasty...


snowbound

[big ed]

-{ Quote: "lol,

It is but one thing i remember when i was in Paris is streets that smelled of urine and where also full of dog crap. :o

Pooches were everywhere along with their droppings.

Nasty...


snowbound" }-

Oh oh, snotied

I'm sure that you will soon be hearing from Dog, Pixel Pup and others of their ilk once they smell your post.

Yapping in Yokahama, Yid ed

[HandsOff]

-{ Quote: "Hey, it's been a slow news week! What is the 'Statute of Limitations' on cheating anyways?

Biking in Brussels, big ed" }-


I am not arguing for a statute of limitations, I am arguing against the notion that any win in any sport is considered provisional and can be revoked and any time down the road. An event takes place a certain time. An event has a winner. There will always be a pack of whiners who cannot accept that. Personally I'd rather not hear from them.


Secondly, one wonders what is wisdom of banning a substance that could not be tested for?

Who decides it's time to test a six year old sample? Am I supposed to believe that those samples were guarded 24 hours a day for six years? Considering the fact that someones privacy and confidality is being breached in such a way as to have news reports without the subject having been officially charged of anything speaks to a lack of impartiality.

How would you like to take a drug test for your employer. To have passed the test and worked, not only adequately, but in fact as the best specialist of his kind in your particular field, only to hear reporters six years later saying that they have "proof" that your accomplishments really arent valid, that you tested positive, and you owe the entire world an explanation.

Then imagine that you had just had a nice 30 minute conversation with the CEO in which he never showed any doubt as to your integrety, but when you watch the evening news you hear him quotes as saying you owe an explanation.

Lance won. I don't have to wait 2 weeks, or even two minutes. Get over it people!


-HandsOff

[big ed]

Terrific logic....As Vince Lombardi was known to utter...."winning isn't everything...It's the only thing". It's really too early in this fiasco to be backing or pouncing upon Mr. Armstrong. If it turns out that he is a cheat..so be it. If not ....ditto (also be worth a few more $$$$ in endorsements)

Waiting in Warsaw, big ed

[HandsOff]

I can't fault you for logic of waiting and examining the evidence, but there is such a thing as muck-raking. A man has a right to be given credit for his accomplishments. Honestly, anything could happen in the course of six years. But after six years Armstrong has no way of defending himself. The only thing he can do is say yes or no. Where are the checks and balances? I don't believe the results of tests where somebody can accuse, and yet you have no opportunity to demonstrate that the accusation is based on an error, or even intentional.

Again to use the work analogy. suppose your employer has random drug testing and one day you are called into HR and told your sample was dirty and you are fired. You know it's not true. The first thing out of your mouth would be that it was a mistake. perform the test again.

you suggest that I believe winning with everything, and you are so wrong. It seems such poor sportsmanship to run around six years later saying 'its not fair, it's not fair' that I feel compelled to at least offer my support to someone who after so much time has passed has nothing but his integrity to offer. That being the case, I feel no need to consider anything in the accusation beyond the integrity of the people issuing it.

The author of L.A. Confidential: The Secrets of Lance Armstrong, alleges that Lance used performance-enhancing drugs. The only thing I want to know is where he got such confidential information. Oh, that's right, I am supposed to believe test results made by people that proved that they don't follow procedure by leaking allegations.

Armstrong has been the most frequently tested athlete in the world and has yet to come back with a positive, confirmed result even once. And the only thing you can come up with is that the only thing I care about is winning. Meanwhile decent people are perched on the edges of seats dry-washing their hands and salivating over every disrespectful thing said about someone who is obviously a true competitor and champion. He is a champion, correct? Or, wait, let's test his urine for twenty more years before we shake his hand and say, 'good race.' No need, really, to give him credit for the other five titles either?

Well, if people want to dishonor themselves and others, I guess they can do so. As I said, I don't need to wait two weeks to have someone else explain to me who how attempting to dishonor Lance Armstrong six years later is really a decent thing to do. But all those people who only care winning, can sit and hope that this author can do with his smear campaign, what he could not do on a bike. I said Armstrong won, and I thought the reason was obvious. Because he won. It is an accomplished fact.



- HandsOff!

[big ed]

Dosen't make no never mind to me one way or the other how this pans out! It might be of some concern to all the guys who came in 2nd though!

Wondering in Wichita, Wig ed

[snowbound]

-{ Quote: "Dosen't make no never mind to me one way or the other how this pans out! It might be of some concern to all the guys who came in 2nd though!

Wondering in Wichita, Wig ed" }-
I couldn't care less either but i have an idea for the future.

Example, the Olympics. Have 2 sets of Games.

First, The Shoppers Drugmart Games(for all the cheaters)

Second, The Clean Games(self explanatory)

Which one do u think people would watch? ;) ;D


snowbound

[HandsOff]

-{ Quote: "Dosen't make no never mind to me one way or the other how this pans out! It might be of some concern to all the guys who came in 2nd though!

Wondering in Wichita, Wig ed" }-


And from the looks of it, there are quite a few!


- HandsOff

[big ed]

-{ Quote: "I couldn't care less either but i have an idea for the future.

Example, the Olympics. Have 2 sets of Games.

First, The Shoppers Drugmart Games(for all the cheaters)

Second, The Clean Games(self explanatory)

Which one do u think people would watch? ;) ;D


snowbound" }-

Damn you're good snowguy,

You know, if you think about it, thats a pretty good idea!

What kind of boosters do you think the Tiddlywinks compeditors would use?

I propose that each Country choose a Champion and deposit all of them on a deserted Island (w/no intelligent life), either Hans or Australia, w/the bare necessesities and whoever emerges unscathed.....WINS!!

Supportive in Seekonk, I kid you not...ed

[The Hammer]

The ICU has now entered the fray with it's own probe. http://www.tsn.ca/oln/news_story.asp?id=134936

[ronjor]

Texas Monthly (http://www.texasmonthly.com/mag/issues/2005-07-01/talks.php)

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "http://www.tsn.ca/oln/news_story.asp?id=134936" }-

From the above source: "...The UCI said it regretted the breach of confidentiality in the disclosure of samples...."

Yeah, right. ::)

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: ".

First, The Shoppers Drugmart Games(for all the cheaters)

Second, The Clean Games(self explanatory)

" }-

Do you think there will be any good athletes around to compete in the latter? ::)

[Trekk]

The samples are worthless since the chain of custody had been violated. You have no idea whos pee that actually is at this point, or who has added to it.

Trekk

[HandsOff]

-{ Quote: "From the above source: "...The UCI said it regretted the breach of confidentiality in the disclosure of samples...."

Yeah, right. ::)" }-


Well a sincere appology and a statement that no conclusions should be drawn from this unreliable evidence would be a little more meaningful than general regrets.


- HandsOff

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "Well a sincere appology and a statement that no conclusions should be drawn from this unreliable evidence would be a little more meaningful than general regrets." }-

Agreed. But I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Primrose]

No apology necessary..Lance is going to come back and do it again now that they have pushed his buttons ;)


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/football/apfootball_story.asp?category=2020&slug=CYC%20Armstrong%20Retirement

[Close_Hauled]

I hope he does. And instead of holding up eight fingers, he should hold up one... In each hand!

[Dazed_and_Confused]

-{ Quote: "..Lance is going to come back and do it again now that they have pushed his buttons..." }-

Wow! I would really love to see that. I normally shake my head when I see pro's retire and then return (Michael Jordan, Deion Sanders, etc). But in this case, I think it's warranted (and appreciated :D, and will surely be enjoyed ;) ).

[The Hammer]

-{ Quote: "No apology necessary..Lance is going to come back and do it again now that they have pushed his buttons ;)


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/football/apfootball_story.asp?category=2020&slug=CYC%20Armstrong%20Retirement" }-Not a good idea. People who will be involved in the testing and are supposed to be impartial have already taken positions on his guilt. I smell a setup in the works. Some people may be determined to have him test positive. Normally I don't entertain conspiracy theories.

[Dazed_and_Confused]

UCI Scolds World Doping Over Armstrong (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050910/ap_on_sp_ot/cyc_armstrong_doping_7)


He will yet be vindicated.

[HandsOff]

"How could this be done without the riders' consent?" the UCI said.


Because you are guilty until proven innocent. In a real sense, he has already been tried and convicted, without the benefit of a trial. The only thing he has pubic - that segment of it that finds this sort of abuse of a person's rights unexceptible.

I am glad he is finally getting some support. Frankly, I don't think he would be if it were not for strong public opinion. So there you go...You can be tried in the press, and your only hope will be if the reader's stand up for you.

Not so different, really, from ancient times when a victorious gladiator stood poised over the vanquished, waiting for the crowd to elicit a thumbs up or a thumbs down.

If the responsibles only knew their history they could have forseen the outcome. The valient fighter gets the approval of the crowd. Thumbs up. Well, it would not be such a happy ending for someone less popular.

Think of, say, Barry Bonds. The press hate him. How are charges agains him handled. Oops- off topic man strikes again

-HandsOff

[Dazed_and_Confused]

A Combative Armstrong Is Committed to Battling On (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/14/sports/othersports/14vecsey.html)

"Mostly, Lance Armstrong's retirement sounds much like his racing career. People pursue him. He pursues people."

[Dazed_and_Confused]

Lance Armstrong Says He Will Stay Retired (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050916/ap_on_sp_ot/cyc_wada_armstrong;_ylt=Ar3qbC7XDUc90RuKiDqpl3ui24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)

"Sitting here today, dealing with all this stuff again, knowing if I were to go back, there's no way I could get a fair shake — on the roadside, in doping control, or the labs"

[The Hammer]

Canada has it's own Tricky Dick. If you remember Dick Pound quit in a huff when he didn't get the top job in the Olympics and was enticed back by being put in charge of WADA.

[The Hammer]

UCI and WADA Chiefs accuse each other. http://sports.sympatico.msn.ca/Home/ContentPosting.aspx?feedname=CP-AllSports&newsitemid=64855034

[Dazed_and_Confused]

Crow refuses to listen to Armstrong's musical advice (http://breakingnews.iol.ie/entertainment/story.asp?j=156389590&p=y5639xz96)

Probably not a bad idea. A great cyclist, but musician? :-\

[ronjor]

Sheryl Crow is a very independent person. Lance has met his match. :D

[The Hammer]

Rogge backs Armstrong: http://www.tsn.ca/oln/news_story.asp?id=137258

[big ed]

Lance had a few sniffles today so his Dr told him to take 2 of every kind of pills he had w/a gallon of water and to call him in the morning...that is..if he woke up!!

High in Hampsterdam, Hic ed

[The Hammer]

Dick Pound's back in the news saying the Lance Armstong thing is being spin doctored at the moment.

[snowbound]

Lance Armstrong Ordered to Stand Trial on Charges of Defaming Italian Cyclist Simeoni,

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=1410351



snowbound

[HandsOff]

Who needs soap operas?

-HandsOff