Why?

[dallen]

I took the time to write the following and did so without violating any of the forum rules. Why did you close the thread?-{ Quote: "I want in give you my thoughts on the issue of communication, as I think this thread is based on the desire for the developers to communicate more effectively with the customers. To say that giving an estimated release date is impossible is wrong. I'm sure many anti-trojan software companies would say that what you are working to develop is next to impossible, due to the complexity. However, you don't let that stop you from developing the most sophisticated layer of defense against trojans do you? If you can tackle that task of developing software like TDS4 than I'm very confident in your ability to give a semi-accurate estimation on a projected completion date. So what if you have to modify the date down the road. What this issue is really about it the level of importance that you place on effectively communicating with the people that give you the ability to engage in this development, your customers.

If any of you are familiar with Lavasoft's Ad-Aware and their forums, you may have seen that they recenly offered an estimated release date to Ad-Aware SE (the new name for the new version). I was active in persuading them to change their stance on customer communication. It took almost 8 months to get them to change their policy. Prior to the recent change they maintained a similar attitude, "it will be finished when it's finished."

The most convincing complaint came from another forum participant. He was an IT guy and he had convinced his manager to purchase hundreds of licenses at a cost of thousands of dollars. He raised the point that it was unacceptable for him to go to his manager and tell him that some of the issues that they were having with the software not doing what it should would be fixed in the coming version that would be released at an unspecified date. I'm not in this kind of situtation with TDS because I purchased it for protecting my home PC. The cases are very similar. Lavasoft got the point that businesses that don't effectively communicate with their existing and potential customers suffer from the decision. I think that software developers often forget that communication is vital." }-

[nick s]

I would have liked the thread to stay open if only for the opportunity to disagree with dallen.

Nick

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

And I thank you for taking the time to write that, but the thread was not closed because of your post, and you didn't violate any rules so don't worry about that. It was closed simply because everybody has now had their say, and the thread wasn't achieving anything other than wasting more of our time by having to respond to more and more questions about a program we haven't even released yet. I'll add a post after yours to explain that. When TDS4 is released please feel free to fire as many questions as you like at us (just as you can ask anything you like now about TDS3), but until TDS4 is released we simply don't have this time to waste talking about it. It's a public holiday here in Western Australia today but I'm here working so I assure you we're doing everything we can to get it out as soon as we can - why wouldn't we want to get it out as soon as possible? I can assure you that we want to release it even more than you want it released :), but staying here talking about it is doing absolutely nothing to help with getting it out.

Thanks for your understanding.

Anyway, back to work.

[dallen]

Thank you nick. I would love to hear you voice your thoughts.

[tazdevl]

I was trying to offer a bit of advice to the gang @ Diamond in that post. They chose not to take it. That's fine. I don't know what their resource situation looks like, but I don't think that a occasional dev update is a bad thing. Given the fact that I've managed the development and marketing of some fairly successful products that have generated a lot of revenue for my previous employers and clients since I've been a consultant, my comments weren't necessarily coming from a tech-anticipation perspective.

Reason why the post was closed was due to a couple people from Diamond saying they had no interest in providing even a monthly dev update to interested potential customers. No reason for it to go on so it was closed.

Edit LOL NM you got an answer.

[dallen]

tazdevl,
As a current student at a top business school, it sounds like you know your stuff.
-{ Quote: "Edit LOL NM you got an answer." }-I don't know what this means, but I hope it's not something added by a moderator of the forum.

Wayne - DiamondCS,
I respect your time, and I hope others here do as well. I can only imagine the effort that goes into developing this kind of software. One point I'd like to make. There are benefits that come from giving estimated project completion dates. Many of the questions would be answered before they're even asked once the communication channel is opened up. Just a thought to consider.

[LowWaterMark]

-{ Quote: "-{ Quote: "Edit LOL NM you got an answer. " }-I don't know what this means, but I hope it's not something added by a moderator of the forum." }-
Just an FYI - If a moderator had added a comment, the "reason for edit" line at the bottom of the post would identify the moderator that did so. No moderator can suppress that automated documentation mechanism. Since that line currently says "Last edited by tazdevl : Today at 12:29 AM.(my time zone), I'd have to say that tazdevl added that line him/her self.

[dallen]

LowWaterMark,
-{ Quote: "Just an FYI..." }-Thanks for the information. I guess I should have looked, but I'm glad that was the case. Thanks again.

[Jooske]

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=26249
See Wayne's sticky thread about the subject.

I'm no developer but it's not like building a house where you deal with logistics and concrete plans and materials.
Maybe in fact it is as structured, with the difference lot finds different solutions in the building. Here all is newly developed and invented, there is not any concrete stone to be used, and a fast changing environment, in the meantime several products using some of the new technologies are released and we see in the forums how users deal with them on their systems etc etc
we are just repeating what has been said countless times.........
So it is said all time: you are using part of the new TDS-4 technology, only with another name on it and not a suite comparable with the current TDS-3.

[tazdevl]

-{ Quote: "tazdevl,
As a current student at a top business school, it sounds like you know your stuff.
I don't know what this means, but I hope it's not something added by a moderator of the forum." }-

Nope dallen. I edited my comment after I hit submit, saw there was a response from Diamond.

I also went to a top biz skewl ( ;D ) several years ago after being in the real world for a few years following undergrad. Let's just say I have a knack for product management and marketing.

[BlueZannetti]

Let me add my perspective. I'm on the development end of things in the chemical industry. I can see Diamond CS's point on all this.

Let's say we have a new product that has shown promise in lab-scale manufacturing - now the really hard part kicks in - can we scale-up the lab process? What adjustments do we have to make to carry the synthesis out on a plant scale? How do we do purification? What are the economics of the process? If we feed this product into an existing plant site and use existing reactors - how do we transition into and out of this new product? As all these decisions are made, the target product may change a bit. If we can't change the target, we may have to invent some new ways of executing the manufacturing process along the way, even though the product itself exists bascially unchanged. Until we can manufacturer the product at plant scale reproducibily - we really don't want to disclose what's coming down the pipe and when it will appear. At pilot scale, we will often sample key lead customers - this is our alpha level test. Once we have confidence that we can make it at full plant scale, other customers will be sampled, but they'll be sampled with material that will actually reflect standard production.

We keep a lot of the information internal as long as possible since there may be some attributes in the lab scale product that we simply cannot pull off either at all or economically on a full plant scale. We also don't want to telegraph too much information to our competition since they can do a lot of things (squeeze the economics of their manufacturing, cut their margins, etc.) that would impact the launch of our new offering. Nor do we want to build unrealistic expectations in our customers.

I'm sure there are a number of new things that TDS-4 will implement. A lot of it may involve undocumented or sparsely documented Windows features. Once they "figure things out in the lab" and implement these features in a production program, they really have to see how that whole thing interacts with other software out there. Does it coexist with other applications? Are there any unforeseen interactions? If there are unforeseen events, it's back to the lab to retool or one makes a decision to hold off on that feature (which usually happens after a retool effort fails)

The intrinsic need to have a firm ETA for TDS-4 really comes back to competitive drivers in this area and there are a lot. There is the obvious competition out there from other trojan scanning options. But AV suppliers are also now getting into the mix - TDS-4 will have to coexist with the major AV apps as they (the AV suppliers that is) start going down that road of increased malware coverage.

From a user's perspective, I'd love to have a copy of TDS-4 on all my machines. Failing that, I'd love to know when it will hit the street. However, until I see their competition releasing a superior alternative to the current product - it's a more or less academic question since I won't switch until I see something better.

To take Jooske's analogy and twist it a bit more - it IS like building a house, but your inventing what "house" means along the way, and that can alter the project timeline a lot as you discover what a house really is and what it takes to make one. It's a lot different than a situation that reflects pragmatic implementation of completely known technology in a somewhat new or altered context (an example here would be a new PC at a much lower pricepoint)

Anyway - just a couple of random early morning thoughts.

Blue

[Jooske]

Think they wished it was as relative easy as planning to build a house as in the menatime of inventing complete new things and dealing with undocumented materials, there's also that outside world not sitting still waiting till you invented something they can kick but they invent new threats as well so you have to keep on track and several pases ahead of those new developments in the trojan world as well during the new building process, which can even mean start from scratch in the middle of the work to do it better and find better solutions, etc.
Yes, it's absolutely more complicated then other materials or color for the tiles in the bathroom in the new house; it is looking at all moments if you're going to plan a bathroom inthere at all in the first place!

I notice new code added to the current database, in my last full system scan alarming on a thing which was there almost a year and never any of the known spyware scanners alarmed on it, didn't even know it was there nor where it came from so now asking DCS advice what to do with it.
So ahead of the adware/spyware scanners too, at the moment.

[dallen]

Jooske,
Thanks for adding your thoughts.

BlueZannetti,
Your comments are very insightful. It's apparant that you have extensive knowledge about the topic. One slight gap in your logic that I want to see if you can fill. Based on the "building a house" analogy, I would argue that for the person that has paid for the home and waiting for the contractors to finish the project, you can bet that there are well known completion deadlines (one step further than an estimation). Stiff penelties can be assessed for not meeting those deadlines.
Your chemical manufacturing experience is very relevant in replicating the level of complexity that the developers here are dealing with; however, it still falls short when I put forth the argument that I was sold the TDS suite under the agreement that I was also purchasing TDS-4 upon its release. A lot of time has passed since then and one could argue that customers like myself are owed at least an approximate time frame in which we can expect the delivery of our purchase.
This is the only logic gap that I could find in your analogy; however, I feel that it's a pretty significant gap.

[Rainwalker]

LIFE= I want it..I got it..I'm happy..hmmm..I want it..I got it..I'm happy..hmmm..I want it..I got it..I'm happy..hmmm..I want it..I'm dead

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "Your chemical manufacturing experience is very relevant in replicating the level of complexity that the developers here are dealing with; however, it still falls short when I put forth the argument that I was sold the TDS suite under the agreement that I was also purchasing TDS-4 upon its release. A lot of time has passed since then and one could argue that customers like myself are owed at least an approximate time frame in which we can expect the delivery of our purchase.
This is the only logic gap that I could find in your analogy; however, I feel that it's a pretty significant gap." }-
OK, I think I see where you are coming from here.

Here are the two scenarios both involve the purchase product X with the expectation you will receive a free upgrade to Product X+1 (TDS-3 -> TDS-4).

1. If you based the purchase of product(X) on the promised characteristics of product(X+1), and there are commercial offerings that currently provide many of the new feature set enhancements of product(X+1), details of the release date and target feature set for product(X+1) are critical and simply have to be communicated.

2. If you based the purchase of product(X) on the basis of product(X) functionality alone, and have been promised that in doing that, you will receive a free upgrade to some/all components of the next generation offering, details of the release date and target feature set really aren’t an issue – in a commercial sense – until the competition starts rolling out offerings that exceed the functionality of product(X). Naturally, in any customer’s eyes, functionality is tied to the components of the complete feature set that matter to them – and that can be very customer specific. If the time lag is long enough, sure I’ll wonder if I’ll ever see product(X+1), but pragmatically that is not an issue until I have other commercial options available to me.

For me, scenario (2) is what applies.

Are there viable commercial options? Sure, although each has there limitations such that none – in my opinion – exceed the functionality of the current TDS-3 product for my purposes. In the current product landscape, I feel that TDS-3 remains the category leader. If I didn’t feel that way I would be very aggressive in asking when TDS-4 is slated for release, what the projected feature set looked like, and how the module positioning was targeted to us. To me, TDS-4 will be similar to ProcessGuard in that, in many ways, it will redefine the product category. PG basically established a new category – again in my opinion.

So where does that leave us? Well, my purchase was based on TDS-3 and TDS-3 alone. TDS-3 is the house in the analogy used, and we have been living in it, so it’s not as though we’ve contracted for a house which remains unbuild. The free upgrade to TDS-4 (and in keeping with the analogy - that is a new living domicile - maybe it's a house, maybe not - that you can trade your current house in for) only influenced me with respect to the timing of my purchase – it didn’t make sense to hold off since there was no obvious benefit in doing so, assuming I stayed within the DCS fold. But, at the end of the day, my purchase is of the feature set provided by TDS-3, which I have used as delivered. Since DCS has been very circumspect in discussing product details regarding TDS-4, I don’t believe anyone can say that they have purchased TDS-3 based on specific features to be incorporated into TDS-4. If a competitor releases a product tomorrow that exceeds the performance of TDS-3, well then the landscape will have changed. Based on what I see, and what products such as ProcessGuard suggest, this is a very unlikely scenario. Impossible? No. Extremely unlikely? Yes. Am I comfortable with my decisions? Yes.

Not sure if I’ve completely answered your question. I hope so.

Best regards,

Blue

[dallen]

-{ Quote: "LIFE= I want it..I got it..I'm happy..hmmm..I want it..I got it..I'm happy..hmmm..I want it..I got it..I'm happy..hmmm..I want it..I'm dead" }-
Rainwalker,
That's deep. I'm not sure that my simple mind can comprehend such complex philosophical rhetoric. However, I hope that you get what you want and that you have many years ahead of you.

BlueZannetti,
I think that you've pointed out that our differences trace back to our expectations when we made our respective purchases. Based on your expectations, I would have a similar attitude and similar conclusions. I hope that you are able to see things from my perspective and why my attitude is the way it is based upon my expectations.
What is your educational background if you don't mind my asking?

[Rainwalker]

Hi dallen...this could be fun but Paul would soon be all over it..
;)

[Grumble]

As far as business/management theory and practice are concerned, I've found that a greater amount of knowledge and insight comes about from signing the front of paychecks than the back. ;D
______________
PhD, School of Hard Knocks
Entrepreneur
President/CEO

[Jooske]

But if the product wouldn't be all what we wanted (together we must have filed a kilometres long wishlist, and Wayne and cie promised to try to make us all happy where possible) so if we hadn't asked so much maybe ... and if the trojan world hadn't demanded so much more per day maybe...
we know from a few products (talking about other companies here, not about DiamondCS) at each release people get into serious trouble because of ?? whatever, serious bug and vulnerabilities demanding for urgent repairs and new updates and fixes, in a very serious case even DiamondCS created a fix for all to use for free, etc.
With the DiamondCS products we have not see that kind of trouble, only replacements for more features or other solutions if even only one person got into problems for some reason, not even always caused by the product, but just to enable also that one user or small group of users to use the software happily too (and the rest of their system too, of course).
So i'm rather waiting and no people screaming for refund and more nasty things so when they sign their checks and creditcards they do so in full confidence like we all have been able to with each release of DiamondCS.
They have a name to keep. Perth Quality.

[Grumble]

-{ Quote: "They have a name to keep. Perth Quality." }-

Exactly! You got the code. :)

btw, I've been a happy camper with TDS for years... consider it probably the best value of any software purchased... imho

[Jooske]

And a very valuable combination with ProcessGuard, Port Explorer, wormGuard, CryptoSuite, and a whole page of free tools of which many released in the meantime during building on the TDS-4 family, to show us some of the new techs developed, giving us even more tools in hands to secure our systems and to start practising for the coming TDS-4 joys!

[nick s]

-{ Quote: "As far as business/management theory and practice are concerned, I've found that a greater amount of knowledge and insight comes about from signing the front of paychecks than the back." }-

I second that. Very little of what I learned in graduate school (MBA with honors) prepared me for the subsequent 12 years of signing the front of paychecks.

Nick

[Rainwalker]

I for one am not interested in any products that are not ready.....it seems i have spent most of my life waiting for something.............i'm use to it and it's been helpful :)

[Paul Wilders]

-{ Quote: "Hi dallen...this could be fun but Paul would soon be all over it..
;)" }-

Well, I have no intention at all to do so :). As for marketing: no doubt everyone can express their feelings on the subject - as has been done in the meanwhile as I see it ;). In the end though, DCS is the company who's following their own strategy - and rightly so IMHO. Thus, as far as I'm concerned there's no use in discussing marketing strategies. That's up to the software vendor - and the software vendor only.

regards.

paul

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "What is your educational background if you don't mind my asking?" }-
No, not at all. I'm just a simple chemist - started university life as a maths major, but I liked to cook, converted to chemistry, ended up with a PhD. Followed that with ~ 20 years of experience ranging from University teaching (with some chem industry consulting and advising to start-ups) and working at a mid-sized firm (in chemistry, that means a few billion $ in annual sales). Been learning new things all along the way and am still a techie at heart.

Blue

[Paul Wilders]

-{ Quote: "No, not at all. I'm just a simple chemist - started university life as a maths major, but I liked to cook, converted to chemistry, ended up with a PhD. Followed that with ~ 20 years of experience ranging from University teaching (with some chem industry consulting and advising to start-ups) and working at a mid-sized firm (in chemistry, that means a few billion $ in annual sales). Been learning new things all along the way and am still a techie at heart.

Blue" }-

Impressive! Hat off, Blue! 8)

regards.

paul

[dallen]

-{ Quote: "I second that. Very little of what I learned in graduate school (MBA with honors) prepared me for the subsequent 12 years of signing the front of paychecks.

Nick" }-Nick, I'm not some student that's been trapped in academia my entire life. I don't know what kind of experiences that you've had; however, I don't doubt that you know what your talking about. I do think that you've underestimated how well your education must have prepared you along the way. Remember, it's not WHAT you learned while getting your MBA that was important, it's that you learned how to learn that counts. So, obviously you must have done that well.

-{ Quote: "...In the end though, DCS is the company who's following their own strategy - and rightly so IMHO. Thus, as far as I'm concerned there's no use in discussing marketing strategies..." }-Mr. Wilders, first I'd like to thank you for allowing this dialogue to take place. You are certainly correct that DCS has earned the right to follow their own strategy. I just wanted to clarify that it's not their marketing strategy that I feel needs improved. I just feel that all could benefit from improving their communication strategy with existing customers.

BlueZannetti,
You have quite a resume with what appears to be a good combination of experience and education (combination is the key, as both are extremely important). Have you had any dealings with Purdue University?

[nick s]

-{ Quote: "...it's that you learned how to learn that counts" }-

Well said. I meant no offense. My business education was preceded by 4+ years in the United States Marine Corps, which, it turns out, is a decent "business" school as well. Go easy on the guys at DCS. They not only face competitive threats, they have to deal with a class of sociopaths deliberately bent on rendering their product useless.

Nick

[Jooske]

Fortunately a product not even being released can't be rendered useless by nobody. Nor can nobody comment it's features and what it does or probably not.
If it has some of the options of TDS-3 you can make your coffee with it and washing the dishes, besides protecting and analysing your system.

Maybe it could have a HijackThis log analyser, would be really practical.

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "Impressive! Hat off, Blue! " }-
Thanks Paul, but as you seem to know quite well, it's not what you've learned, but whether you keep learning.
-{ Quote: "...Have you had any dealings with Purdue University?" }-
It's been a while. I did sponsor some R&D funding from my employer a few years back for a handful of years. That's about it.
-{ Quote: "....My business education was preceded by 4+ years in the United States Marine Corps, which, it turns out, is a decent "business" school as well." }-So true Nick. Some of my best education, or maybe it's best to say pure motivation, came from driving a fork lift in a warehouse during third shift for a few summers. You learn to deal with all types of people and situations in a positive way.

There - now let's get back to supporting the folks at TDS, not to mention Paul, Jooske, and the rest of the helpful crew at Wilders who spend their time lending an ear and providing help when it's needed most....

Blue

[dallen]

Jooske,
I can tell you about one of the valuable features that I know TDS-4 will have. It will come with access to a forum where smart people like yourself will be there eagerly awaiting to help with any issue that arrises. ;)

Nick,
No offense taken and as a former military man myself (U.S. Air Force), I have nothing but respect for the Marines. I'm not trying to be hard on the guys at DCS. I'm just trying to offer up a different way for them to view customer communication and the value that comes with it. Sometimes companies develop a strategy or a way of doing things and for whatever reasons don't give alternative ways consideration. When problems arise these companies will often hire expensive consultants to come in and help them solve these problems. A lot of times improved communications at some level is part of the solution. When the consutants ask why things were being done a certain way, the reason can be a foolish as, "well...that's the way we've always done it." I'm not saying that is going on in this case, but it illustrates my point. Companies sometimes hold on to a way of doing things even though it isn't the best for their customers and ultimately it isn't the best for them.

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

dallen,
-{ Quote: "It will come with access to a forum where smart people like yourself will be there eagerly awaiting to help with any issue that arrises." }-
After TDS4 is released (and registered TDS3 users will be able to upgrade for free), people like myself, Jason, Gavin etc will also have more time for discussions, but at the moment as I'm sure you can understand we are up to our necks in development, now with virtually all of the required research completed over the last few years.

-{ Quote: "I'm just trying to offer up a different way for them to view customer communication and the value that comes with it." }-
These two threads were more about when TDS4 is to be released rather than about customer communication, but I'm disappointed about your views about how we go about it, although we haven't had any complaints before. We have two public forums where all fulltime workers including myself make ourselves available Mon-Fri (and often weekends, sometimes even public holidays like yesterday) while we work to provide free support to forum users, even though it puts us in the personal firing line. We also provide free email support, and there's a contact facility on our website - I can't think of many ways to make it easier to communicate with us, but with only 24 hours in a day we simply don't have this amount of time to spend talking about something as relatively trivial as whether or not we should give you an ETA for an unreleased program, even though we've repeatedly made it clear why we couldn't even if we wanted to. When it's released feel free to ask as many questions about the software as possible, our history there speaks for itself - just scroll back through the forum over the last few years.

Anyway, back to work so that we can provide you with software rather than posts describing it.

Regards,
Wayne