Nav 2003 vs Dr.Web

[JC]

Hello all, long time reader/lurker 1st time poster. Thanks to everyone for great info! Now to my question. In reading about NAV 2003 they advertise it as a scanner for IM, such as msn. However, doesn't the resident scanner in 2002 provide protection from harmful files via IM? Doesn't seem to be a really new feature. Again, it would be a different story if you just used NAV as an on demand scanner but as a resident scanner running in the background i thought you would already be protected. So is there really anything new there? Also, NAV 2003 preportes to have anti-worm & anti-trojan abilities but doesn't NAV 2002 also protect from worms and some common trojans? Hell NAV 2002 has caught both trojans and worms on my system before...so whats new here?? Finally, how would those that have used both(Dr.Web & NAV 2002/2003 beta) compare the performance and detection rate of each? Seems Dr.web has new updates daily that far exceed NAV's weekly updates as well and it daily manual updates? Also, Dr.web is SO MUCH smaller than NAV, does this mean less protection is some capacities?

P.S. One last unclear question i have is does Dr.Web protect against Hostile Scripts like NAV says to do? eg. JS viruses and the like.


Thank you all. I look forward to reading your responses.

JC

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: " quoting: JC link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=0#22910 date=1030988082]
P.S. One last unclear question i have is does Dr.Web protect against Hostile Scripts like NAV says to do? eg. JS viruses and the like.
" }-

Yes!

DrWeb32 is much better AV/AT scanner then Norton (even 2003)!


Technodrome

[controler]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=0#22990 date=1031018560]
-{ Quote: " quoting: JC link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=0#22910 date=1030988082]
P.S. One last unclear question i have is does Dr.Web protect against Hostile Scripts like NAV says to do? eg. JS viruses and the like.
" }-

Yes!

DrWeb32 is much better AV/AT scanner then Norton (even 2003)!
I still want to verify that myself someday ;D

Technodrome
" }-

[Technodrome]

Your quoting is little bit off....

"I still want to verify that myself someday " ;D

Trialware is always available! ;)


Technodrome

[root]

I have never tried NAV 2003, but I do know that Nortons previous versions of NAV seems to have mixed results on different machines. I have had to clean up several clients machines where NAV was used. I have seen it miss the most common viruses and I know they were in the database. A good example is one of the Marker viruses.
I know NAV is doing pretty good at Virus Bulletin testing. I know several intelligent people that seem to like Norton very much and don't seem to have any problems with it.
I do not consider myself to be a dyed in the wool Norton basher, but I do not like the "Norton bloat". I just believe that Norton products seem to be very sensitive to the environment into which they are installed. Simply put, I do believe Nortons AV may work great on one machine, but not another.

I am using DrWeb now, and have been for 3 or 4 weeks. It has caught every virus I have tested with it. I do not have enough experience with it and do not know enough people that are using it to say it is a great AV yet. So far I am very pleased with it and do not know anybody that has complained about it missing anything, except for some strange stuff Techno came up with.
My personal call on your question would be to go with DrWeb. However, I still believe that for people that can use KAV without a system slowdown, KAV is the best AV ever. NOD32 is also an excellent AV, but still needs some work for trojan detection. I am interested in seeing what the new NOD is going to be like.

[diginsight]

-{ Quote: " quoting: JC link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=0#22910 date=1030988082]
P.S. One last unclear question i have is does Dr.Web protect against Hostile Scripts like NAV says to do? eg. JS viruses and the like." }-

I haven't been using NAV for detection tests. Norton is not listed on the "Heureka-2" AntiVirus Tests March 2002 on http://agn-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/vtc/ so you can't compare both.

[JC]

Thanks for all the great feedback. I just grabbed the trial of dr.web, but i run NAV2002 as my resident scanner (running 24/7 in background). Anyways, when i began to install Dr.web (i intended to try it as an ondemand scanner) i got a warning that told me Dr.Web had detected that i was running NAV2002 and that installing Dr.Web could cause unstable result. My question is: is it safe to install dr.web as an ondemand scanner and is it safe to do so while runnign NAV2002 as my resident scanner?

Thanks all.
JC

[Paul Wilders]

JC,

-{ Quote: "..i got a warning that told me Dr.Web had detected that i was running NAV2002 and that installing Dr.Web could cause unstable result. My question is: is it safe to install dr.web as an ondemand scanner and is it safe to do so while runnign NAV2002 as my resident scanner?" }-

A matter of trial and error in fact. On some systems we installed DrWeb while for example NOD32 or KAV Pro installed without any problems; we do have reports stating otherwise - instability.

In any case: when installing any software, be sure to disable all running apps before doing so.

regards.

paul

[JC]

So are you basically saying it just depends? Could be stable or it could be unstable just luck of the draw? I do not wish to run Dr.Web as a resident scanner. Just an on-demand scanner. Like i said, i do not wish to replace NAV2002 with Dr.web, just add to it by using Dr.web as an alternative on-demand scanner. Do i have a choice while installing Dr.Web to make it just an on-demand scanner??

Thanks again.
JC

[Paul Wilders]

JC,

It's fairly common, sortalike software having compability problems; ever tried to install several software firewalls?

The overall guide - whatever security software is concerned - is not to install various ones - and for good reasons: there's no guarantee installing more than one will not cause problems. Thus, it's up to the possible user to decide wether or not to neglect this overall advice.

As stated: we didn't encounter problems while installing DrWeb on systems while others had been installed - in spite of the warning you refer to. That said, others have reported problems on ocassion.

This isn't only a DrWeb issue; it's fairly common.

No, you don't have the choice to install DrWeb (or any other anti-virus for that matter) as an on demand scanner. The software installs - after being installed, one can configure the way it should act.

Thus, in essence it's up to you wether or not wanting to take a risk. In case you do so, it's recommended to back up your system first.

regards.

paul

[controler]

I have been running NAv 2002 and Dr Web without any problems so far.


However the New Kerio 3.0 Beta sucks, Nothing but trouble..

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: " quoting: JC link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=0#22910 date=1030988082]
Hell NAV 2002 has caught both trojans and worms on my system before...so whats new here?? Finally, how would those that have used both(Dr.Web & NAV 2002/2003 beta) compare the performance and detection rate of each? Seems Dr.web has new updates daily that far exceed NAV's weekly updates as well and it daily manual updates? Also, Dr.web is SO MUCH smaller than NAV, does this mean less protection is some capacities?

" }-

In fact, comparing NAV2002 and 2003, the difference is very small, and not worth to put your money in an upgrade NAV2002 >> 2003.

My personal opinion about comparing NAV(2003) and DrWeb is, that DrWeb is the better choice.

[Randy_Bell]

I disagree with several posters here. Just look at the antivirus poll at dslreports: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,879883~root=security,1~mode=flat

Norton wins hands-down!! IMHO, NAV 2002 is the finest and best av-product in the world!!

And regarding DrWeb's warning, I think that's just a marketing ploy myself: ignore the warning and do a custom install -- choose not to install the resident DrWeb scanner, and you'll then have DrWeb as a backup on-demand scanner, LOL. :) :)

[Paul Wilders]

Hi Randy!

-{ Quote: "I disagree with several poster here. Just look at the antivirus poll at dslreports" }-

No offense, Randy: but a pollp/i] isn't exactly my guideline ;)

-{ Quote: "Norton wins hands-down!! IMHO, NAV 2002 is the finest and best av-product in the world!!" }-

Always like a man/woman who's firm in what s/he believes in. NAV can be fooled though - depending on database heavily - updated less than needed. [i]That's where heuristics come in ;)

-{ Quote: "And regarding DrWeb's warning, I think that's just a marketing ploy myself..." }-

well, it's a known fact several sortalike security apps do cause conflicts. I'd rather would consider it a very worthwhile advice: it's up to the user to disregard the warning - or not.

Take care!

regards.

paul

[Randy_Bell]

OK Paul, I'll concede that DrWeb is known to have excellent heuristics...but I think NAV has a better VB test record.

Actually NOD32 has the very best VB test record, but I still stick by my statement: NAV is #1, and will remain that way for some time to come.

Just ask Vamp, and he'll say the same thing. Indeed, he has posted the same opinion more than once at dslr security forum. So it isn't just me who feels this way.

No flames y'all, please, LOL.

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Randy_Bell link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=0#23686 date=1031438847]
OK Paul, I'll concede that DrWeb is known to have excellent heuristics...but I think NAV has a better VB test record.

Actually NOD32 has the very best VB test record, but I still stick by my statement: NAV is #1, and will remain that way for some time to come.

Just ask Vamp, and he'll say the same thing. Indeed, he has posted the same opinion more than once at dslr security forum. So it isn't just me who feels this way.

" }-

IMO excellent heuristics is the most important issue of an antivirusscanner, and I fully agree with Paul that the updates of NAV are updated less than needed.

I don't feel the way Vamp and you are, and I agree again with Paul, that because NAV is updated less than needed, in conjunction with heuristics that are not satisfying, it can't be the antivirusproduct #1 on the market.

Besides that, a poll is for me a nice item to read, and that's all.
It has nothing to do with SERIOUS testing of product x,y or z.

[Paul Wilders]

Hey Randy,

-{ Quote: "OK Paul, I'll concede that DrWeb is known to have excellent heuristics...but I think NAV has a better VB test record." }-

Haven't checked lately - you very well could be right. But..take into account virusbulletin only performs tests in regard to In the Wild Viruses - wouldn't that be one more reason to rely on strong heuristics as well?

-{ Quote: "Actually NOD32 has the very best VB test record, but I still stick by my statement: NAV is #1" }-

No prob!

-{ Quote: "..and will remain that way for some time to come." }-

That's a dangerous statement! One can't predict the future, not even in regard to abti-viruses, can we? ;)

-{ Quote: "Just ask Vamp, and he'll say the same thing. Indeed, he has posted the same opinion more than once at dslr security forum. So it isn't just me who feels this way." }-

I'm aware of Vamp's view on heuristics. That said: Magnus is seriously considering using heuristics in the upcoming TrojanHunter v3.0 anti-trojan. I'll take it, you strongly dissaprove?

-{ Quote: "No flames y'all, please, LOL." }-

No, no! just exchanging opinions. By all means, no flaming over here!

regards.

paul

[JC]

Thank you all for your insights. I guess that was my point for having a backup AV in addition to Norton's. Since Norton is automated and has somewhat slow updates and its hueristics are know to not be very strong such is why i turned to Dr.Web for consideration. they update everyday, sometimes more then once a day. Now thats staying on top of things in my book. Also, they are regarded for strong hueristics which i believe is a great tool for extra security. Just to through one more into the mix, if you were to choose a back up AV scanner would it be dr.web or F-Prot give the two as the only choices?

Thanks all.

JC

[Randy_Bell]

-{ Quote: " quoting: JC link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=15#23707 date=1031443380]Just to through one more into the mix, if you were to choose a back up AV scanner would it be dr.web or F-Prot give the two as the only choices?
" }-

I have a friend who uses Kaspersky (KAV) as his primary and resident scanner, with DrWeb and F-Prot as backups...with no problems at all, LOL. ;D

[Randy_Bell]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Smokey link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=15#23689 date=1031439756]IMO excellent heuristics is the most important issue of an antivirusscanner, and I fully agree with Paul that the updates of NAV are updated less than needed.
" }-

NAV does have what it calls bloodhound technology, which is its built-in heuristics. Besides, heuristics can cause false alarms...you can't depend on heuristics, IMHO.
-{ Quote: " quoting: Smokey link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=15#23689 date=1031439756]I don't feel the way Vamp and you are, and I agree again with Paul, that because NAV is updated less than needed, in conjunction with heuristics that are not satisfying, it can't be the antivirusproduct #1 on the market
" }-

Everybody entitled to an opinion, including yourself. Besides, it is an inaccurate statement, that NAV isn't updated as often: just checkout the daily intelligent updater (IU) threads at dslr security forum: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/security,1. Those who wish to update NAV daily with IU (rather than weekly with liveupdate or LU) are free to do so, indeed that's what I've been doing for some time now.

For those who are lazy and only use LU to update, it comes out more often when there's a virus alert or special threat: I've seen LU update as many as three or four times in a single week.
-{ Quote: " quoting: Smokey link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=15#23689 date=1031439756]Besides that, a poll is for me a nice item to read, and that's all. It has nothing to do with SERIOUS testing of product x,y or z.
" }-

Well, as I said, you're entitled to your opinion, as am I to mine. BTW, it isn't just dslreports poll -- Editor's Choice at CNET, ZDnet, and PC World goes to NAV 2002.

For the record, I have sent an IM to Vamp through dslreports, inviting him to come and post to this thread, hopefully he'll have time to post here, as he has some informed opinion supporting mine, LOL. :) :)

[MyNethingyman]

Give Randy a break here ::) I have encouraged him to get out and about 8)

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: "
OK Paul, I'll concede that DrWeb is known to have excellent heuristics...but I think NAV has a better VB test record." }-
Read VB test criteria you may learn something! How about ZOO viruses? (no need to mention trojans/backdoors)

-{ Quote: "Actually NOD32 has the very best VB test record, but I still stick by my statement:." }-
Actually NOD32 has one of the best heuristics engines!

-{ Quote: "NAV is #1, and will remain that way for some time to come" }-
Yup, as long as they are spending money on advertising...


-{ Quote: "Just ask Vamp, and he'll say the same thing. Indeed, he has posted the same opinion more than once at dslr security forum. So it isn't just me who feels this way." }-
Sorry but who is he! AV/Virus Proffesional?

-{ Quote: "No flames y'all, please, LOL.
" }-

NP


Technodrome

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Randy_Bell link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=0#23681 date=1031437596]
I disagree with several posters here. Just look at the antivirus poll at dslreports: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,879883~root=security,1~mode=flat

Norton wins hands-down!! IMHO, NAV 2002 is the finest and best av-product in the world!!
" }-

1. Every poll is bias! This one is useless! The name of this poll is What kind of Anti Virus Program do you use? If I use Norton, am I going to vote for KAV or NOD32?
@ Around 450 people voted out of 400 million computer users (around 100 million AV users)!

-{ Quote: "And regarding DrWeb's warning, I think that's just a marketing ploy myself: ignore the warning and do a custom install -- choose not to install the resident DrWeb scanner" }-

You are wrong! I know a few people who had problems! Every system is different!

-{ Quote: "Norton wins hands-down!! IMHO, NAV 2002 is the finest and best av-product in the world!!" }-
It's only your opinion! Thanks god!


Technodrome

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: "
Well, as I said, you're entitled to your opinion, as am I to mine. BTW, it isn't just dslreports poll -- Editor's Choice at CNET, ZDnet, and PC World goes to NAV 2002.
" }-

Come on Man! Are you serious?


Technodrome

[Randy_Bell]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=15#23718 date=1031455191]Read VB test criteria you may learn something! How about ZOO viruses? (no need to mention trojans/backdoors)
" }-

I prefer a separate antitrojan product, like TrojanHunter or TDS-3 ( or BOClean, The Cleaner, Tauscan, take your pick) -- to supplement an antivirus product: AVs are designed primarily for virus detection, although they do detect the more common trojans; whereas ATs are obviously better fitted to detect and remove trojans. Among AVs, Kaspersky (KAV) has the best trojan detection rate, but it has a poor VB test record compared to NAV and NOD32.
-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=15#23718 date=1031455191]Actually NOD32 has one of the best heuristics engines!
" }-

I never made any negative statements towards NOD32 or other AVs, only I think, when all factors are considered (including interface and ease of use), NAV is superior.
-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=15#23718 date=1031455191]Yup, as long as they are spending money on advertising...
" }-

IMHO, you don't gain the lion's market share through advertising alone...product quality must back it up!!
-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=15#23718 date=1031455191]Sorry but who is he! AV/Virus Proffesional?
" }-

If he responds to my IM, hopefully Vamp will show up here, and you'll see for yourself he is no novice with viruses and trojans...he has helped many people at dslreports with trojan infection problems, LOL. I just mentioned him as a for-instance, but there are many, many NAV-supporters, just examine my link to dslreports' AV-poll for yourself. :) :)

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: "
NAV does have what it calls bloodhound technology, which is its built-in heuristics." }-
Every AV product has heuristics code analyzer! But the question is how effective it is?
-{ Quote: "
Besides, heuristics can cause false alarms...you can't depend on heuristics, IMHO." }-

Yes!

Depending on Virus signatures is even worse!!!


Technodrome

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Randy_Bell link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=15#23721 date=1031456945]
Among AVs, Kaspersky (KAV) has the best trojan detection rate, but it has a poor VB test record compared to NAV and NOD32.
" }-
I asked you to read VB archived magazines! See section about actual virus detection!
Compare Norton and KAV!

http://www.virusbtn.com/magazine/archives/
or go here for tables
http://members.tripod.com/technodrome24/lab.htm


Technodrome

[Technodrome]

To your info Randy_Bell:
I never said that Norton is poor quality product! Norton AV is a solid product, but it's far from the best!

Is there the best AV! No!

But there are better ones!

I respect your opinion! As long as you're satisfied with Norton Its all good with me!



Technodrome

[MyNethingyman]

I am going to jump in here with both feet because this is not DSLR

Randy,

1. You do not go to 10% of the sites with NAV most people that post here go with the other brands. That puts you at a disadvantage.

2. You collect badboys but you do not exercise your NAV against them and not even your chosen Trojan program on your system except in a state where the files are zipped.

3. You rely heavily on other people's testing and documentations and use that constantly as your benchmark.


4. You constantly use other people's names..and the products they use to justify or nullify products when you address other people in a forum. Most of them have no idea who you are talking about.


You are getting what you want out of this thread just like other sites..but it is transparent.


The exact same words you are using here..you have said over and over again to the point one could dig up the same wording in past post you have presented..even in the same order.. but to different people.

It is not a flame..it is just there.


John

[Randy_Bell]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=15#23723 date=1031457647]I asked you to read VB archived magazines! See section about actual virus detection!
Compare Norton and KAV!
" }-

The link to the vb100 archives (awards by product) is http://www.virusbtn.com/vb100/archives/products.xml. OK, I go there and click on the following, to find:

Eset (NOD32), Result summary: 19 passes / 3 fails
Symantec (NAV), Result summary: 17 passes / 6 fails
Kaspersky (KAV), Result summary: 15 passes / 11 fails
DialogueScience (DrWeb), Result summary: 10 passes / 12 fails

This is exactly the results I have stated in previous posts: NOD32 has the best record, followed by NAV: although KAV and DrWeb have superior trojan detection rate, they have an inferior VB test record.

The VB test record isn't the only thing to go on, obviously. But I have quoted the results accurately here, LOL. :) :)

[Technodrome]

I asked you to read VB archived magazines not overall passes! See section about actual virus detection!
Compare Norton and KAV!
There is a lot of reading! But you might find it interesting or not!

http://www.virusbtn.com/magazine/archives/
or go here for tables
http://members.tripod.com/technodrome24/lab.htm

Maybe my English isn't that good? ???


Technodrome

[Randy_Bell]

-{ Quote: " quoting: MyNethingyman link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=15#23726 date=1031458830]It is not a flame..it is just there.
" }-

I was wondering who MyNethingyman was!! And I don't consider your comments to be a "flame" in any way...you're just being honest...no problem.

If any of my posts are out-of-line here, Paul or whoever the moderator is will take care of it, I'm sure. When I happened upon this thread, there were posters advocating DrWeb over NAV. There was nobody to speak for NAV.

Perhaps my statement about "marketing ploy" in DrWeb's requiring uninstallation of NAV was a bit strong, I apologize here to all. It did seem suspicious to me when I tried DrWeb for myself. And you seemed to agree with me about that, in some of our communication.

I think there are several good av-products on the market, but since this is a thread for expressing opinions, I've expressed mine, and others are welcome too.

Warmly, Ran

[jc]

Ok, wow..thanks for all the great dialoge and links!
Not to be persistant but:
1. If one was to install Dr.web as a backup AV with NAV as a primary scanner would you disable at startup NAV reboot then install Dr.web or is there another format i should follow? (and thanks for the tip about backing up prior to such an attempt).

2. Given a choice between Dr.Web and F-prot as a backup to NAV which one woul dyou choose and why? Again assuming you had only these two choices.

Thanks all!
JC

[Randy_Bell]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=30#23729 date=1031460185]I asked you to read VB archived magazines...See section about actual virus detection!...There is a lot of reading! But you might find it interesting or not!...Maybe my English isn't that good?" }-

Technodrome, your English is fine, but the link you gave contains a bunch of files in Acrobat Reader (.pdf) format, and it would be very very time-consuming...compared to the simple results I quoted...so perhaps you could summarize what you're getting at?

I think I understand where you're coming from, LOL. And I respect your opinions here. :) :)

[Randy_Bell]

-{ Quote: " quoting: jc link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=30#23731 date=1031461236]Ok, wow..thanks for all the great dialoge and links! Not to be persistant but:
1. If one was to install Dr.web as a backup AV with NAV as a primary scanner would you disable at startup NAV reboot then install Dr.web or is there another format i should follow? (and thanks for the tip about backing up prior to such an attempt).
" }-

Disable NAV Auto-Protect from the main screen, then reboot. Afterwards, do a custom install (not the default express install) of DrWeb, and make sure you don't install DrWeb's resident scanner, since you're going to re-enable NAV Auto-Protect when done.
-{ Quote: " quoting: jc link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=30#23731 date=1031461236]2. Given a choice between Dr.Web and F-prot as a backup to NAV which one would you choose and why? Again assuming you had only these two choices.
" }-

I mentioned my friend who uses KAV as main and resident scanner, with DrWeb and F-Prot as backups, with no problems. But if you had to choose, I think DrWeb has a much better detection rate, although I understand F-Prot has excellent cleaning capabilities. :)

[JC]

Thank you randy for such a quick reply!

JC

[MyNethingyman]

Hi JC,
Since you have already narrowed some things down on your choices..I would like you to post the following so that the best combination can be suggested for your needs.


1.What is your OS (Version of Windows ?)

2. Are you one dial up or broadband?

3. How much RAM do you have installed?

4.What other Security products do you have running at start up?

5. Do you do your mail with a Microsoft Product? ie OE

6. What Browser are you using?

7. After everything is loaded at start up..how much active RAM do you have available?

With that information. I think many could give you the best solutions.


Regards,
JOHN

[JC]

Hi MyNethingyman, ok here are the specs!

OS- Windows Xp Pro
Internet - Broadband
Ram - 512MB DDR 2100
Security @ startup- NAV2002, Sygate Firewall.
Mail - yes MS outlook or hotmail web-based.
Browser - MS explorer v 6.0.2600
PF usage - 236MB (give or take)

Thanks for your help.
JC

[MyNethingyman]

Great,
Then you can go anyway you wish with room to spare as you well know. I sure like fport but Dr Web is right in there as the back up. ;)

[Randy_Bell]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Forum Admin link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=15#23696 date=1031440555]I'm aware of Vamp's view on heuristics. That said: Magnus is seriously considering using heuristics in the upcoming TrojanHunter v3.0 anti-trojan. I'll take it, you strongly dissaprove?
" }-

This is from Magnus post to a TH forum thread: "Heuristic scanning?", http://www.misec.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=TrojanHunter&action=display&num=1031257143

"I'm currently doing research on heuristics; among other things machine learning and neural networks. It may or may not be included in TrojanHunter 3.0, depending on what detection/false positive ratios the different engines achieve. It would of course be easy to turn off, and come with a high threshold setting by default."

My answer to your question is, I don't know enough about heuristics as applied to trojan detection...but the ability to turn it off, in case of false positives, is important, IMHO. I suppose I trust Magnus as the TH author to do what's right in this case.

I don't know about TDS-3, but I take it that it has heuristics? But doesn't TDS also have some problems with false positives? Just curious, thanks. :) :)

[Paul Wilders]

Hi Randy and all,

Although at times strong words have been used, I'm glad this thread did not turn into a flame - kuddos for that :). I can't see anything posted being out of line.

Randy,

-{ Quote: "I don't know about TDS-3, but I take it that it has heuristics? But doesn't TDS also have some problems with false positives? Just curious, thanks." }-

TDS has a quite different approach than the "usual" heuristics. Have a look over on the TDS forum and the sticky thread from Jan concerning basic configuration to get an indication.
As for false positives: indeed they do occur on ocassion using TDS - not very often, but nevertheless.

regards.

paul

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=15#23722 date=1031457066]
-{ Quote: "
NAV does have what it calls bloodhound technology, which is its built-in heuristics." }-
Every AV product has heuristics code analyzer! But the question is how effective it is?
-{ Quote: "
Besides, heuristics can cause false alarms...you can't depend on heuristics, IMHO." }-

Yes!

Depending on Virus signatures is even worse!!!


Technodrome

" }-

I agree 100% !!!

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Randy_Bell link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=30#23732 date=1031461415]
Technodrome, your English is fine, but the link you gave contains a bunch of files in Acrobat Reader (.pdf) format, and it would be very very time-consuming...compared to the simple results I quoted...so perhaps you could summarize what you're getting at?" }-

When you read this "time consuming" PDF files, you might be able to make decision about AVs actual detection rate(In the Wild, Macro Virus, Polymorphic Virus, Standard Virus). You will see that some tested products get VB award, but it missed more viruses then the failed product! Not receiving VB award could be due false positives…Reviews, Facts, AV professional opinions and more! If you want to get the real picture, then you should read it!

-{ Quote: "
I think I understand where you're coming from, LOL. And I respect your opinions here. :) :)
" }-

No, I am not from Russia!


Technodrome

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=30#23759 date=1031493415]
-{ Quote: " quoting: Randy_Bell link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=30#23732 date=1031461415]
-{ Quote: "
I think I understand where you're coming from, LOL. And I respect your opinions here. :) :)
" }-

No, I am not from Russia!


Technodrome

" }-

Techonodrome, do you know the movie "from Russia with love"?

;D ;D ;D ;D ;)" }-

[MyNethingyman]

Tech, I can not stop laughing Comrade ! ;D
Thanks for the links.

[Technodrome]

Hehehe you guys are funny!
Не забывайте проверять все файлы попадающие на Ваш компьютер из внешних источников на отсутствие вирусов.


Technodrome

[MyNethingyman]

Hello Mr Biggelsworth!

http://www.masmol.com/archive/note/2


http://hbar.phys.msu.su/gorm/wwwboard/korzina/7609.html

[Vampirefo]

Heuristic, detection is just another way to get people to look at one's product, Heurist is nothing more than guessing, ie this may or may not be a Trojan or Virus.One will say something like possible, meaning nothing more than I am guessing this is a virus.

Heuristic, tries to watch programs and what they do, based on this it will flag the program as a possible virus,ie profiling. This leads to large amounts of false detections, and causes confusion, and just plan bores some users, including myself.

A vendor using Heuristic set ups up his engine to detect these bad guys, based on tricks, or what the vendors expects, a virus to do, so a unknown virus that doesn't meet these expectations simply get by the Heuristic, so again the Heuristic failed, as it didn't catch a real unknown virus.

Can I show you a false positive from Drweb of course, here you go.
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=3511

Why this NAV VS Drweb debate started is beyond me, I have read all the posts, and haven't gotten much out of this thread, other than DRweb relies on Heuristic, which is a no no in my book.

But each person needs to make up their own mind, and newbies will always get confused when Heuristic is talked about. So I just try not to talk about it, A AVP needs to stand on it's on feet, have good detections and perform well without Heuristic.

Heuristic can be considered a bonus, or add on, but not a real effective method of detecting Trojans, or Viruses. Perhaps Heuristic can be used as selling point.

Bottom Line NAV Rules. LOL have a great Sunday guys, and relax a little.

[TAG97]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Technodrome link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=45#23782 date=1031503434]
Hehehe you guys are funny!
Не забывайте проверять все файлы попадающие на Ваш компьютер из внешних источников на отсутствие вирусов.


Technodrome
" }-

I pick #1077 ???

[JC]

hi Vampirefo,
this thread was started because i was trying to decide what AV to back up my NAV with. In addition to my subscription running out soon, i thought i would back up my Nav 2002 until it was time to upgrade. Needless to say, whether or not heuristics is your cup of tea, from what i gather Dr.Web does stand up on its own, with multiple updates almost everyday, and at least one up date per day. So, while others have supported Dr.Web's strong use of hueristics one should not forget that they are one of the most frequently updated Avs out there.

P.S. sorry you didn't get anything out of this thread :'(

[Vampirefo]

JC,
Give Drweb a try, and see how you like, it maybe what you are looking for. If you are just looking for a back up you could try AVG it's free and works well, just a thought.

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Vampirefo link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=45#23788 date=1031509368]
Heuristic, detection is just another way to get people to look at one's product, Heurist is nothing more than guessing, ie this may or may not be a Trojan or Virus.One will say something like possible, meaning nothing more than I am guessing this is a virus.

Heuristic, tries to watch programs and what they do, based on this it will flag the program as a possible virus,ie profiling. This leads to large amounts of false detections, and causes confusion, and just plan bores some users, including myself." }-

It would be pointless to go any further with you in regards to this topic!

-{ Quote: "Can I show you a false positive from Drweb of course, here you go.
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=3511." }-

Can I show you a false positive from Norton of course, here you go. http://www.infosatellite.com/news/2001/11/a161101symantec_bug.html

-{ Quote: "Why this NAV VS Drweb debate started is beyond me, I have read all the posts, and haven't gotten much out of this thread, other than DRweb relies on Heuristic, which is a no no in my book." }-
DrWeb32 does not rely only on Heuristic! Virus signatures are released daily!
-{ Quote: "But each person needs to make up their own mind" }-,

Agree

-{ Quote: "and newbies will always get confused when Heuristic is talked about. So I just try not to talk about it, A AVP needs to stand on it's on feet, have good detections and perform well without Heuristic." }-
newbies could be confused with anything....

-{ Quote: "Heuristic can be considered a bonus, or add on, but not a real effective method of detecting Trojans, or Viruses. Perhaps Heuristic can be used as selling point." }-
Sometimes Heuristic could be more important then just as selling point!

-{ Quote: "Bottom Line NAV Rules. LOL have a great Sunday guys, and relax a little.
" }-

Thanks, U2


Technodrome

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: " quoting: TAG97 link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=45#23791 date=1031509920]
I pick #1077 ???
" }-

Sorry there is no prize for you! ;D


Technodrome

[Paul Wilders]

Gents,

There's room for every solid opinion over on this board - although there's no need to agree ;).

Sure, false positives are fairly common - regardless the security app.

That said: let's respect different views and opinions, and not turn this thread into some kind of a spitting match ;).

regards.

paul

[Bobb]

My question is why would you compare junk like this to the premiere Anti virus software in the world? And how or Why would you trust your system to Low budget junk like this? You want software from a old trusted name that's rated well all over the world! Not low budget stuff from some low end country that has no record or test record even remotely close to NAV! It's like Nod, It rates well only one place in the world, The famed virus bulletin! yeah right, I'm going to trust that track record with my system, Oh yeah that's a bright idea!
Stay with a Real company that will always be there when you need them, Be it a update, support, saving your system, Etc, It's like when your buying homeowners insurance, Would you buy it from some generic out of town newbie company that may or may not be here tomorrow or be able to help when you need it or are you going to buy from a reputable Old American company that has always been around and always will be around

[Paul Wilders]

Bobb,

Your outspoken favor for "reputable Old American companies" is noted.

As for your remarks concerning Dr Web (most probably AVP/KAV as well, since they originate from Russia) being junk and "probably will not stay up" is a) quite untrue and unfounded.

Thanks for your valued input.

regards.

paul

[MyNethingyman]

Hey Bobb,
The answer to your questions is obvious. You only read the title of the thread my friend, not what the reason why the member here started the thread. The member is using NAV and wants to use also something for a back up. Did you read that part. :-\ :-\ :-\

Your real question should be why??????

Why are so many people running TWO of everthing now days if their OS and hardware will allow it.

Your Flag waving stuff is understandable..but not in an intelligent discussion on how each of these product operate with their engines to secure a system in real time.

It is the user who wants the added security..I do not blame them. Do You????

I have yet to see NAV or anyone else in the business..give money back...claim their prodcut was 100 percent effective or put that in writing.


So as NAV struggles with yet another new release called NAV2003..be patient my friend....It is not 2003 just yet .... ;D you have SP1 and SP3 floating around from M$ on two of the most popular OS.. how well all of them play together is anyones guess..but fports for DOS is lookig good as a backup ;)

[Tinribs]

I find Bobb's comments very narrow minded, and frankly a bit offensive.
Again its relying on a company who are only the biggest due to spending the most on advertising.

I dont think Xenophobic views are appropriate here, maybe you could continue your 'shill' somewhere else. >:(

[TonyKlein]

As for Bobb's eruption, allow me to second the learned colleagues who spoke before me:

I strongly disapprove of this kind of jingoism, which moreover doesn't seem to be founded on any kind of familiarity with the products mentioned.

Just my two cents...

[root]

Can I use the "T" word? Can I? Can I? Huh? Please!!! :-*

[Paul Wilders]

-{ Quote: " quoting: root link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=45#23904 date=1031579561]
Can I use the "T" word? Can I? Can I? Huh? Please!!! :-*
" }-

LOL! No please ;). Since dear Mr. Bobb should have a fair impression about the opinions concerning his post, I suggest we go back to life as usual - posting on topic 8).

regards.

paul

[Technodrome]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Bobb link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=45#23864 date=1031549464]
My question is why would you compare junk like this to the premiere Anti virus software in the world? And how or Why would you trust your system to Low budget junk like this? You want software from a old trusted name that's rated well all over the world! Not low budget stuff from some low end country that has no record or test record even remotely close to NAV! It's like Nod, It rates well only one place in the world, The famed virus bulletin! yeah right, I'm going to trust that track record with my system, Oh yeah that's a bright idea!
Stay with a Real company that will always be there when you need them, Be it a update, support, saving your system, Etc, It's like when your buying homeowners insurance, Would you buy it from some generic out of town newbie company that may or may not be here tomorrow or be able to help when you need it or are you going to buy from a reputable Old American company that has always been around and always will be around
" }-

Yeah, yeah clap clap clap! Bravo, bravo, bravo!
Man, what a guy!!!! I am convinced, from now on my system is protected with NAV! Hell yeah, after this touchy speech I am going to look for my 5 years old shoes! Old stuff...
We need more knowledgeable people like Bobb to help us decided what to chose!

P.S. Boob stop dreaming, wake up man! It's 10:26 AM! Sun is up!

Technodrome

[Paul Wilders]

ehh..TD,

-{ Quote: "..I suggest we go back to life as usual - posting on topic" }-

please ;).

regards.

paul

[Technodrome]

Sorry Paul, but I couldn't resist! 8)

It was stronger then me...


Technodrome

[Paul Wilders]

;D ;D ;D

regards.

paul

[Pieter_Arntz]

I do hope this is ontopic enough ;)
If no-one ever tried anything new or bothered to look if improvement lay around the corner, we´d still be sitting around a in a cave hoping the bears didn´t notice us.
I like having NAV but I also like having F-Prot as a backup.
I guess it all comes down to a persons taste in software.
I like the fact that there is a big knowledgebase in case of trouble, but let´s not forget it has been created for a reason.

Regards,

Pieter

[diginsight]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Bobb link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=45#23864 date=1031549464]
You want software from a old trusted name that's rated well all over the world! Not low budget stuff from some low end country that has no record or test record even remotely close to NAV!" }-

DrWeb has been around since 1994. The only AV I've been using before are McAfee, Thunderbyte and F-Prot. Are these Dutch and Icelandic programs also considered low budget from low end countries?

I'm in favour for low budget software from low end countries. Because if it's low budget I can save money on license fees and because it has to run on low end systems it's usually very fast ;D

[Ashak]

Let's not forget that Microsoft, the all-American company to top all companies has moved quite a lot of it's operations to low budget, low end countries ;D

[controler]

Ok that's it I couldn't take it any longer. I stepped on my toung as not to speak here but I just had to. You all know how I feel about Norton.
Some of you have been around almost as long as I have too.
I will not flame any of the newer products. I like some of them.
I will say this again though.
Norton ( SYmantec ) has been around as long as Gates and me.
Norton has built quality software since the early 80's. Not just antivirus software but many others. He was one of the very first to make any kind of antivirus software. He was also one of , if not the first to make an undelete software. Most of us remember Norton Utilites most though. All good products... A leader not a follower..
Please look at the overall picture here. Who has contributed more than any other person on this earth for usable , lifesaving software?
Write your answer below LOL
Didn't Norton create the first windows , which Bill bought cheap? Like 40 grand?
Wher do your loyalities lay? This is the big question.
Who had the first e-mail scan?
I can't ask the younger generation to understand what i am talking about here but I know all you same age as me remember....
Please STOP with the " Only reason Norton sells is because of his marketing"
I will continue to advice my friends to use Norton and if their membership is running out, Heck, buy the next version LOL

[JC]

Wow, what a passionate dialoge we got going on here. I would like to thank everyone here for adding the opinion to the disscusion, i respect everyone's views and most have been helpful and informative. So when does this actually become a mega-thread ;D ? This is my first thread/post here and everyone has been great, if you have something more to add please do, i am reading and clicking everything mentioned!

Thanks again!
JC

[MyNethingyman]

A nice change at DSLR Security Forum.
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,4382201~root=security,1~mode=flat

[Paul Wilders]

-{ Quote: "A nice change at DSLR Security Forum." }-

I'm sure you must be delighted! ;)

regards.

paul

[bellgamin]

I never posted at DSLR, but I visited several times.

The atmosphere was so hostile there -- and some of their frequent posters were so embued with a messianic complex -- that I deleted that link from my Favorites.

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: " quoting: controler link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=60#23959 date=1031623599]
Ok that's it I couldn't take it any longer. I stepped on my toung as not to speak here but I just had to. You all know how I feel about Norton.
Some of you have been around almost as long as I have too.

" }-

Hi Controler!

Because Norton, now Symantec, has been around as long as Uncle Bill, you, and me, it doesn't means that now-a-days Norton is still THE Nr.1

From very early days, there was only Dos, Uncle Bill was a baby and I was hunting pretty women, Norton was indeed the Nr.1, but times are changing.

I agree with you that Norton has built quality software, but now there are many companies who are doing the same, or even better.

Norton was a leader, but now in many kinds of software Norton is become a follower, you can be sad or angry about that evaluation but it is still a fact.

I understand what you means because I'm not one of the younger generation, for example I was one of the pioneers of Fido-Net , had several Bulletin-Boards and was a well-known person in sysop-Fido-Land, Internet didn't exist at that time so I know what I'm talking about.

Just like you I was always loyal to Norton because it was the best on the market, but now there are so much better products, should I stay at Norton because in your opinion I should be loyal to Norton, and forget all the better available products of other companies?

In all the past years I bought almost everything made by Norton, for 3 months I erased my last Norton product: NAV2002, now my computer is complete Norton-free.

I changed from Norton to another antivirusproduct, for a very simple reason: NAV2002 missed some viruses and trojans on my machine and I can't permit me from a feeling of loyalty I stay at Norton, and the result is that all my hard work is gone.

It is your very good right to advice your friends to use Norton, I was doing the same for years, but at this very moment I will advice my friends NOT to use Norton. :'(

[JC]

Hi Smokey,
Thank you for your response. Could you follow up then? What did you select to replace Norton and WHY did you select what you did? I think we all have opinions here, and thats fine, but perhaps you could expand on your post to illustrate your decision.

Thanks,
JC

[Smokey]

-{ Quote: " quoting: JC link=board=24;threadid=3404;start=60#24553 date=1032024856]
Hi Smokey,
Thank you for your response. Could you follow up then? What did you select to replace Norton and WHY did you select what you did? I think we all have opinions here, and thats fine, but perhaps you could expand on your post to illustrate your decision.

Thanks,
JC
" }-

Some examples:

Norton Utilities > Norton Win Doctor: cleans to much in the registry, with as result an instable system. Better product: Registry Healer by KsL Software.

Norton Ghost: cannot make an image of a NTFS partition. Better product: Powerquest Drive Image.

Norton Anti-virus: don't find certain viruses and/or trojans. NAV is like the name already explains a virus-scanner, but another virusscanners are discovering more trojans (and viruses) as Norton does. Better product: DrWeb.

Norton Personal Firewall: is doing the job to good, and "to" is not always positive, blocks to much. Better products: Outpost Pro and Outpost Free.

All programs announced by me as "better product" are programs I personal use, but there are more programs who are doing the job better as Norton.

This should not be seen as a flame against Norton, but you asked me and I just answered your question.
I realize that Norton-freaks will not be happy with my answer, but I am a (ex-Norton) freak who wants a good product for his money. ::)