LibreOffice

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "LibreOffice - a community fork for OpenOffice.org

The Document Foundation's logo The Document Foundation is a newly founded organisation with a mission: to make an office suite available as truly free software, developed within the wider community. Supported by companies like Google, Novell and Red Hat, the Foundation has forked the Oracle-owned OpenOffice software and created LibreOffice." }-

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LibreOffice-a-community-fork-for-OpenOffice-org-1097443.html

I think it's good news!

[Robin A.]

They should rethink the whole OpenOffice concept, instead of continue developing the perennial second-best MS Office.

[anandee]

I just hope the fork is not going to fragment the skills and focuses of developers, on the other side having a super partes organism like FSF taking control of Open Office project is a good new!

[NoIos]

I'm sorry to say this but again I see here another comedy branded Open Source.

[vasa1]

LibreOffice RC1 arrives (http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LibreOffice-RC1-arrives-1147964.html)

PortableApps.com is also working on a release :thumb:

[vasa1]

LibreOffice RC2 (http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LibreOffice-RC2-now-available-1159242.html) is available.

I downloaded the Windows version from the Document Foundation last night. It weighed in at ~210 MB and after installation takes up ~438 MB.

One issue is that the "Record Macro" option is grayed out. If someone uses that a lot, it's better to wait! Fortunately, it accepted the macros already existing in my OpenOffice.org 3.2 Calc spreadsheet though I had to assign shortcut keys again (because I had associated the macros with the document and not with the program).

Overall, it is not much different from OpenOffice.org though its "chrome" looks slightly less polished, IMO, but that's a triviality.

[vasa1]

Does anyone at all use this?
The English section over here (http://en.libreofficeforum.org/) is pretty dead.

I don't know of any other forum dedicated to LibreOffice as yet.

Anyway, I brought down the post-install size from ~438 MB to ~286 MB since I have no intention of being a translator for the UN. I tossed a bunch of languages, dictionaries, and sounds, among other things. I wish this was possible at the time of download.

[TOMxEU]

Well, I do. Anyway, I wonder, why they do not join GoOO project, since it includes patches, that have been refused by Sun Microsystems, it has the same idea like LO, no?!

EDIT: Nevermind, I just visited their webpage and look, what I have found:

-{ Quote: "Go-oo joins forces with LibreOffice Go-oo shares much of its goals and philosophy with The Document Foundation's LibreOffice project, we're therefore supporting LibreOffice since it's inception, and are in the process of merging most of our patches over, as well as migrating to Document Foundation infrastructure. Going forward, the Go-oo project will be discontinued in favor of LibreOffice." }-

[vasa1]

LibreOffice portable is here!
http://portableapps.com/news/2011-01-27_-_libreoffice_portable_3.3_released

And the link is hard to get right now! Will try after things calm down. I've already downloaded the non-portable variety but will switch when the next significant update comes along. The non-portable dumped a ton of fonts in the Windows fonts folder and there are many registry entries, all of which can be avoided by going portable.

[vasa1]

The portable apps version is available at two locations currently:

http://www.libreofficeportable.org/

and

http://portableapps.com/LibreOfficePortable

but both give the same error so are they really different sites?

[JRViejo]

vasa1, the download llink for PortableApps.com is:

-http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/portable/3.3.0/LibreOfficePortable_3.3.0.paf.exe-

Both your links resolve to: http://portableapps.com/apps/office/libreoffice_portable which has the same download link.

[TOMxEU]

Thanks for the info and links.

[JRViejo]

FYI. Announcing LibreOffice Portable, a Full-Featured Office Suite For USB, Removable and Cloud Drives (http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/01/27/announcing-libreoffice-portable-a-full-featured-office-suite-for-usb-removable-and-cloud-drives/)

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "vasa1, the download llink for PortableApps.com is:

-http://download.documentfoundation.org/libreoffice/portable/3.3.0/LibreOfficePortable_3.3.0.paf.exe-

Both your links resolve to: http://portableapps.com/apps/office/libreoffice_portable which has the same download link." }-

Thank you! :)

I got those from a post by Florian Effenberger to the tdf-announce list.

[vasa1]

JR, your link is very interesting. The download size is shown as:
Size: 118M (123947264 bytes).

The non-portable is ~210 MB!!!

One more reason for going the portableapps.com route. It would be interesting to know what magic went into cutting the size down! Any idea?

It also gives the nearest mirror. To my mind, this is a better link than the portableapps.com which used to point to SourceForgenet (a site that doesn't like me and my download manager :()

[JRViejo]

vasa1, perhaps this list of Modifications (http://portableapps.com/support/libreoffice_portable#modifications) will provide the info you're seeking.

SourceForge is having problems at the moment. Re: Thread (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=291774).

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "vasa1, perhaps this list of Modifications (http://portableapps.com/support/libreoffice_portable#modifications) will provide the info you're seeking.

SourceForge is having problems at the moment. Re: Thread (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=291774)." }-

Thanks! I was busy downloading the portable version. Good read.

I had seen the notice about the Fx portable being difficult due to issues with the host. So in a way it's good that the same site is not required to download LO.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LibreOffice-a-community-fork-for-OpenOffice-org-1097443.html

I think it's good news!" }-

You've convinced me Vasa! ;)

My Belnea laptop has an ancient version of Open Office (I use the up to date one on my desktop) so I thought I would have a look at Libre Office.

It looks OK. :thumb:

[korben]

After 24h with Libre I am back on OpenOffice. When you set the memory to 256MB it's very fast.

why:
the dependency on java was killing me [delays in the menu even though java was turned off]

[vasa1]

PortableApps.com has something called App Compactor (http://portableapps.com/apps/utilities/portableapps.com_appcompactor). I must check it out. John Haller had mentioned it in the context of shrinking the post-install LibreOffice folder.

Of course, there are a few caveats ... back-up first and not all files are amenable. Compacting some .exes breaks them.

Certainly worth playing with ;D

[Ocky]

For further enlightenment, Mrk has tested LibreOffice at Dedoimedo-LibreOffice (http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/libreoffice.html)
Not sure whether he first uninstalled OpenOffice (in Ubuntu). -{ Quote: "Installation on Ubuntu didn't work well, at the moment, I must admit. Unpacking the .deb files and installing them, I ended up with the regular OpenOffice. I have not explored too deeply, but this is worth examining some more." }-

It is necessary to first uninstall OpenOffice afaik.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "...
It is necessary to first uninstall OpenOffice afaik." }-

I don't know about *nix, but I think you can have both on a Windows system (with a little confusion thrown in). Michael Meeks had sent round a post that seemed to address this issue. I'll see if I can untrash it for a quote.

Here's the mail:
-{ Quote: "Hi there,

On Tue, 2011-01-25 at 18:43 -0800, NoOp wrote:
> It also still uses soffice.exe et all in Windows; meaning that LO still
> takes over OOo if both are installed in parallel.

Unfortunately, there is some inevitability of conflict here. This would
have always been the situation between StarOffice and OpenOffice in the
past eg. AFAIK (and I am no expert), we would both want to clobber the
same COM component names - and remove them socially on uninstall etc.
Short of the typical "I notice XYZ other app is the default, do you want
to change to me" type code that would need adding on both sides, there
will be issues here for a while.

> The latter seems MS like; are LO insistent on obliterating OOo by
> continuing to use OOo registry entries and executable file names?

If you install OO.o over LO - you will find it does the same thing;
there is no malice implied on either side.

> That SVG import still is incomplete and doesn't work properly. In fact
> SVG import is pretty much an ongoing joke (whether it be OOo-go-oo or LO).

Well; it does something useful; we (and you) are welcome to make it
better. In my view, something useful is almost always better than
nothing, even if it is not perfect. Perhaps the most serious thing it
does is showcase the poor performance of draw with lots of complex
shapes - something that is intrinsic to draw, but of course not seen if
you don't load any data into it ;-)

> Sorry, but IMO RC4/Final should have waited awhile until some of the
> more basic bugs were resolved.

I am sorry you think so. But rest assured, you'll have plenty of time
to fix and test bug fixes for 3.3.1 with us all. It is not as if the
baseline we are starting from is bug-free perfection too.

ATB,

Michael." }-

(I don't know if this is relevant to Ocky's comment.)

[Ocky]

Hi, vasa1,

Well, in *nix you need to uninstall OpenOffice first. I don't know about Windows, but from your research it seems a good idea to avoid possible conflicts ..

-{ Quote: "Unfortunately, there is some inevitability of conflict here. This would
have always been the situation between StarOffice and OpenOffice in the
past eg. AFAIK (and I am no expert), we would both want to clobber the
same COM component names - and remove them socially on uninstall etc.
Short of the typical "I notice XYZ other app is the default, do you want
to change to me" type code that would need adding on both sides, there
will be issues here for a while." }-

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "I don't know about *nix, but I think you can have both on a Windows system (with a little confusion thrown in). " }-

I have LibreOffice & an old version of Open Office (2.4.2) on my laptop & I can have a choice to open a document in either. Although LO does seem to be the preferred one, which is fine with me.

Oh yeah, I forgot ... LO has a BRITISH English version 3.3 already! (Unlike some other open source word processors LOL)

[JRViejo]

I'm finding the Portable version (used via an USB drive) a little laggy, yet still workable.

It seems that I'm not the only one: LibreOffice too slow for flash drive use? (http://portableapps.com/node/26464)

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "I'm finding the Portable version (used via an USB drive) a little laggy, yet still workable.

It seems that I'm not the only one: LibreOffice too slow for flash drive use? (http://portableapps.com/node/26464)" }-

I've never used any portableapps.com software from the USB drive but the speed from the hard disk is better, if not the same as that of the non-portable version.

In both cases, I've removed files that I don't need and trimmed the post-install size to ~250 MB. I don't know if that would help. There's also the App Compactor (mentioned a few posts earlier) which supposedly speeds up things. But that is recommended to be run on software installed on the hard disk. After compaction I guess it would be safe to transfer to the USB stick.

All said and done, being competitive will need them to address the speed issue directly. Average end users can't be expected to fiddle!

[JRViejo]

vasa1, I'm sure that both the LibreOffice team and the PortableApps.com group will find a solution to this small, but noticeable lag.

The program's file size is not an issue for me since I'm using an 8 GB USB drive and yes, that App Compactor should be used with care!

[Daveski17]

What does anyone think about the eventual future of LibreOffice (LibO)?

From what I have read it will now be the default suite on Ubuntu. Some big names seem to be behind LibO (including Google). It seems to me that LibO was created/forked after some uncertainty about the future of OpenOffice when Sun was acquired by Oracle. As a long time user of OpenOffice I am quite interested in where all of this is going. The good thing about LibO is that it is familiar enough for OO users to easily relate to & use.

So, what are your predictions for the future of LibO?

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "What does anyone think about the eventual future of LibreOffice (LibO)?

From what I have read it will now be the default suite on Ubuntu. Some big names seem to be behind LibO (including Google). It seems to me that LibO was created/forked after some uncertainty about the future of OpenOffice when Sun was acquired by Oracle. As a long time user of OpenOffice I am quite interested in where all of this is going. The good thing about LibO is that it is familiar enough for OO users to easily relate to & use.

So, what are your predictions for the future of LibO?" }-

Don't know about the future but I hope it's a success.

BTW, I read somewhere that Google and Apple haven't really done more than express support.

I've subscribed to a few of the LibreOffice mailing lists and they have the usual yadda, yadda. Quite intriguing was the lack of consensus about a dedicated forum versus a mailing list.

While using OpenOffice.org, I had found user. services. openoffice. org/en/forum/ to be a great help. They do support (answer queries) about LibreOffice as well.

I really hope the devs slim it down, both in terms of download size and post-install size, especially since there's a feeling they're going in for more frequent releases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Release_early,_release_often).

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "Don't know about the future but I hope it's a success." }-

Yes, plus it is nice to have an alternative to OO.org.

-{ Quote: "BTW, I read somewhere that Google and Apple haven't really done more than express support." }-

That's about what I have gathered. I believe a few Nix distros &/or their respective distributors are taking it seriously, particularly Canonical & Red Hat I believe.

-{ Quote: "I've subscribed to a few of the LibreOffice mailing lists and they have the usual yadda, yadda. Quite intriguing was the lack of consensus about a dedicated forum versus a mailing list." }-

They have a forum (http://en.libreofficeforum.org/), it seems a tad quiet but people do seem to get back to you.

-{ Quote: "While using OpenOffice.org, I had found user. services. openoffice. org/en/forum/ to be a great help. They do support (answer queries) about LibreOffice as well." }-

Yes, a good forum/user services is invaluable.

-{ Quote: "I really hope the devs slim it down, both in terms of download size and post-install size, especially since there's a feeling they're going in for more frequent releases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Release_early,_release_often)." }-

It is a bit heavy compared to OO.org. On my desktop it isn't quite so lightning quick to open as OO. Yet on my laptop I don't see much discernible difference. I quite like the fact that LibO have beaten OO to a British English release of 3.3! ;)

If you don't mind me asking, why did you switch from OO.org to LibO? Have you discovered any advantages?

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "They have a forum (http://en.libreofficeforum.org/), it seems a tad quiet but people do seem to get back to you.

...

If you don't mind me asking, why did you switch from OO.org to LibO? Have you discovered any advantages?" }-

That forum is not "official" (whatever that means).

Well, I've been using OpenOffice.org since version 2.4. Then, when I came to know about portableapps.com, I moved to their version. Unfortunately, since the take-over, they weren't (and still haven't been) given permission to release a new version. You can read about it here (http://portableapps.com/node/24308) and elsewhere in the same forum. I didn't like that at all. So there's reason 1.

Reason 2, which is less important to me, has to do with the other version, Go-OO. There seemed to be some bad blood between OO.org and Go-OO. Anyways, Go-OO was supposed to have more features. And Go-OO seems to be playing nice with LibreOffice. So I assume LibreOffice will have more features than OO.org.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "That forum is not "official" (whatever that means)." }-

Oh, OK.

-{ Quote: "Well, I've been using OpenOffice.org since version 2.4. " }-

And me! (2.4.2)

-{ Quote: "Then, when I came to know about portableapps.com, I moved to their version. Unfortunately, since the take-over, they weren't (and still haven't been) given permission to release a new version. You can read about it here (http://portableapps.com/node/24308) and elsewhere in the same forum. I didn't like that at all. So there's reason 1." }-

I have the most recent release of OO.org on portable apps. Until now I wasn't aware of the upgrading situation surrounding the portable. Interesting ... *raises an eyebrow in a Mr Spock like fashion*

-{ Quote: "Reason 2, which is less important to me, has to do with the other version, Go-OO. There seemed to be some bad blood between OO.org and Go-OO. Anyways, Go-OO was supposed to have more features. And Go-OO seems to be playing nice with LibreOffice. So I assume LibreOffice will have more features than OO.org." }-

Well, LibreOffice 'Impress' has more templates for a start. ;)

EDIT: Have you any opinions on OxygenOffice (http://download.cnet.com/OxygenOffice-Professional/3000-18483_4-10758848.html)?

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "...

EDIT: Have you any opinions on OxygenOffice (http://download.cnet.com/OxygenOffice-Professional/3000-18483_4-10758848.html)?" }-

I heard of it but haven't used it or tracked it.

[LODBROK]

This one preferred office suite of you tube regulars...
-http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page-

[Mr.PC]

-{ Quote: "I heard of it but haven't used it or tracked it." }-
OxygenOffice (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ooop/files/Binary-Windows32bit/3.2.1.40/) contains more
templates, cliparts, samples, fonts and VBA support.

[Daveski17]

Oddly, OxygenOffice doesn't seem as popular as OO.org or LibO though.

[vasa1]

This is from Oracle:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/15/oracle_letting_openoffice_go/

In edit: maybe it would be more educated (I love it!) to say that this is from Register about Oracle ;)

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "This is from Oracle:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/15/oracle_letting_openoffice_go/

In edit: maybe it would be more educated (I love it!) to say that this is from Register about Oracle ;)" }-

So, what's your educated guess about the future of Open Office? ;)

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "So, what's your educated guess about the future of Open Office? ;)" }-

I would hope this has a positive impact. I can't think of any negatives. But open source has managed to shoot itself in the feet often enough in the past. Let's see.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "I would hope this has a positive impact. I can't think of any negatives. But open source has managed to shoot itself in the feet often enough in the past. Let's see." }-

Yes, I would hope for something positive. I've used Open Office (& now Libre Office) for quite a while. I did my first 'Powerpoint' presentation with Libre Office's Impress the other day. Who needs to pay the inflated prices of MS when there is perfectly good freeware? :)

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "... I did my first 'Powerpoint' presentation with Libre Office's Impress the other day. ..." }-

I hope you remembered not to overburden the slides (I don't know what they're called these days) and the audience with too much content! ;)

For those who don't know, there's a forum here: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?search_id=newposts for most any aspect of OOo or LibO.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "I hope you remembered not to overburden the slides (I don't know what they're called these days) and the audience with too much content! ;) " }-

It went very well, content-wise & software-wise ;), even on the antiquated computer running XP that I was using hooked up to an IW (Interactive Whiteboard). I actually prefer Impress to Powerpoint.

LibreOffice has its own forums. (http://libreofficeforum.org/)

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "...
LibreOffice has its own forums. (http://libreofficeforum.org/)" }-

Eat more fish! I've mentioned before that that is not official, FWIW. As a matter of "fact", there was a lot of discussion* in the "official" mailing lists about the merits of mailing lists versus a forum but I don't think anything got done "officially" even though the owner of the forum you mentioned has no issues in handing it over to TDF.

* After all is said and done, there's a lot more said than done ;)

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "Eat more fish!" }-

Oh sorry, that plaice must be the cod-forum. ;D

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Oh sorry, that plaice must be the cod-forum. ;D" }-

The highest form of humour ;)

Anyway, I'm trying to upload part of an email on the topic:

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "The highest form of humour ;)

Anyway, I'm trying to upload part of an email on the topic:" }-

Oh, OK .... in MS DOS? ;)

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Oh, OK .... in MS DOS? ;)" }-

That, young man, is how I keep my eyes from getting blood-shot. Black text on a white background is a killer for me.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "That, young man, is how I keep my eyes from getting blood-shot. Black text on a white background is a killer for me." }-

Oh, I see. In that case you'd probably like Kairo's Trekkie (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/lcarstrek/) theme for SeaMonkey. ;)

[vasa1]

OpenOffice and LibreOffice Won't Be Kissing and Making Up
(http://ostatic.com/blog/openoffice-and-libreoffice-wont-be-kissing-and-making-up)

Egos! :o

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Oh, I see. In that case you'd probably like Kairo's Trekkie (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/lcarstrek/) theme for SeaMonkey. ;)" }-

It's got some nice reviews but ...
It is for SM and doesn't seem available for Fx
&
I've cooked up my own theme and I'm happy with that ... a sort of Frankenstein's Monster with stuff borrowed from all over the place.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "OpenOffice and LibreOffice Won't Be Kissing and Making Up
(http://ostatic.com/blog/openoffice-and-libreoffice-wont-be-kissing-and-making-up)

Egos! :o" }-

Maybe, I think that the Document Foundation had made a decision & an action plan & have just decided to stick with it.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "It's got some nice reviews but ...
It is for SM and doesn't seem available for Fx" }-

Yeah, well ... you could always give the Monkey a spin ...

-{ Quote: "I've cooked up my own theme and I'm happy with that ... a sort of Frankenstein's Monster with stuff borrowed from all over the place." }-

It's Alive! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H3dFh6GA-A) ;)

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Maybe, I think that the Document Foundation had made a decision & an action plan & have just decided to stick with it." }-

That seems to be that:
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Document-Foundation-restates-LibreOffice-goals-1229731.html

(Re. SM, a couple of browsers (and pints) is my limit.)

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "That seems to be that:
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Document-Foundation-restates-LibreOffice-goals-1229731.html

(Re. SM, a couple of browsers (and pints) is my limit.)" }-

Interesting, I think it is the wisest policy for the Document Foundation though. SeaMonkey portable has always been a great favourite of mine. Portable beer is also a favourite. ;)

[J_L]

I wonder how many users there are on LibreOffice in comparison to OpenOffice.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "I wonder how many users there are on LibreOffice in comparison to OpenOffice." }-

I actually have both on my desktop, although LibO is the default. A word processor & a 'Powerpoint' type program (Impress) are important for me, plus I have been using Open Office for so long now I actually prefer it to MS Office.

[The Hammer]

-{ Quote: "I wonder how many users there are on LibreOffice in comparison to OpenOffice." }-
I'd expect that the current numbers of Open Office users would dwarf Libre.

[doktornotor]

-{ Quote: "I wonder how many users there are on LibreOffice in comparison to OpenOffice." }-

LO will grow very fast as Linux distros are switching.

[pajenn]

Please post reviews. Is LibreOffice better than OpenOffice/OxygenOffice?

[OxygenOffice = OpenOffice with ~200 MB of additional templates, fonts, clipart, etc.]

[J_L]

It includes some more features, like those in Go-oo and others. Also more likely to remain free and in development (at least in my opinion). Not sure about OxygenOffice.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "Please post reviews. Is LibreOffice better than OpenOffice/OxygenOffice?

[OxygenOffice = OpenOffice with ~200 MB of additional templates, fonts, clipart, etc.]" }-

All I know about Oxygen Office is from this (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ooop/) Sourceforge page (the Windows 32 bit version can be found on the 'other versions' link).

[pajenn]

-{ Quote: "All I know about Oxygen Office is from this (http://sourceforge.net/projects/ooop/) Sourceforge page (the Windows 32 bit version can be found on the 'other versions' link)." }-

It's available on majorgeeks.com. They have a proper description: http://majorgeeks.com/OxygenOffice_Professional_d5340.html

Note: The last version of OxygenOffice I know of is v3.2.1 (installer size = 355 MB) as opposed to OpenOffice v3.3.0 (installer size = 150 MB), so I don't know how active the OxygenOffice project still is... (majorgeeks dates it at sept-2009, but sourceforge says the last update was apr-2011).

[Daveski17]

@pajenn, OK thanks for the link. :thumb:

[vasa1]

As far as the various flavors go, I've picked one and will stay with it. It does what I want.

Also, they haven't figured out how to provide incremental updates such as provided by some browsers (Fx and Chrome, that I know of). The size discourages me, and may be others with limited broadband, from updating minor revisions.

Then, there may be fonts added willy-nilly to your Fonts folder and which may not be removed upon uninstall.

[vasa1]

The suggestion that LibO have its own forum is going nowhere fast. The suggestion that TDF pages at least mention forums that could provide support is being met with a some "terms and conditions".

[Nick Rhodes]

IMHO user friendly support is important.
Also thinking longer term there needs to be support that businesses can depend on (even if it costs) if they want to be a valid alternative to MS Office.

Cheers, Nick

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "The suggestion that LibO have its own forum is going nowhere fast." }-

What do you think that the problem actually is? Maybe they're planning to 'get around to it'.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "What do you think that the problem actually is? Maybe they're planning to 'get around to it'." }-

I think there's a strong lobby that prefers mailing lists.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "I think there's a strong lobby that prefers mailing lists." }-

Oh, OK thanks.

[vasa1]

It seems that Oracle has donated the OpenOffice.org code to the Apache Software Foundation.
-{ Quote: "Today we welcome Oracle's donation of code that has previously been proprietary to the Apache Software Foundation, it is great to see key user features released in a form that can be included into LibreOffice." }-

-{ Quote: "TDF is therefore willing to start talking with Apache Software Foundation, following the email from ASF President Jim Jagielski, who is anticipating frequent contacts between the Apache Software Foundation and The Document Foundation over the next few months. We all want to offer corporate and individual users worldwide the best free office suite for enterprise and personal productivity." }-

From a reading of TDF's take on the announcement, it appears that TDF is not entirely happy.
Source: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/announce/

Edit: a look at the complexities (http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/28435) (if not potential politics)

One more edit from the source above (post by robert_weir time-stamped 2 Jun 05:10):
-{ Quote: " ...
In any case I am a strict adherent to the practical wisdom of not
debating open source licenses while sober, and I decline to make an
exception in this case.

A re-merged OO/LO would be great. Even more ideal a re-merged
OpenOffice/LibreOffice/Symphony/RedOffice, with greater discipline for how
we relate to other projects that make smaller customizations (NeoOffice,
BrOffice, EuroOffice). But I think the best place for this to happen is
at Apache.

Of the options we considered (and we did consider several, including
LibreOffice's Document Foundation) Apache was the clear top choice. I
don't want to denigrate the accomplishments of LibreOffice. What they
have seems to work for them. So instead of pointing out their
liabilities, let me just enumerate what I see as some of the relative
strengths of AFS: pragmatic commercially-friendly open source license,
proven track record and organizational stability, mature,
meritocracy-based process and strong technical infrastructure.
" }-

Outsiders looking in would be entitled to be confused if not worse ...

[J_L]

Wow, interesting development. At least OpenOffice shouldn't become dead.

[Kevin McAleavey]

This is fabulous news as we selected OpenOffice as our default office productivity software for KNOS, and were fortunate enough to have gotten advance code prior to the public release of 3.3 which was integrated into our OS. At the time of the controversy and Oracle's power play, we looked long and hard at Libre and weren't impressed with it at the time. Had this not been the outcome, we were willing to license through Oracle with great reluctance to keep OO as we have it working very nicely with KNOS.

We'll be watching this anxiously as we work on the next KNOS release later this year. I agree that having the Apache Foundation watching over OO is about the best outcome we could all hope for.

[vasa1]

There is sooo much politics ....
http://www.robweir.com/blog/2011/06/apache-openoffice.html

[vasa1]

IBM has expressed approval of Oracle's move. Let's see what comes of this whole business.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/01/oracle_openoffice_apache/

[Spiral123]

LibreOffice just released 3.4

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "LibreOffice just released 3.4" }-

Any idea if this is the "stable" version or a beta?

This gives me the impression that "conservative" users may want to wait at least for 3.4.1:
-{ Quote: "The first release of the 3.4 series, LibreOffice 3.4.0, is targeted to community members and power users, and should not be implemented in a corporate environment. The Document Foundation has explained that following its time based release schedule – the best strategy for a distributed and cooperative development environment – the best releases for such deployments start from x.x.1. Because of this, LibreOffice 3.3.x is going to be maintained for several months to come, until the end of calendar year 2011, for the most conservative users.
" }-
(emphasis added)
Source: http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/06/03/the-document-foundation-announces-libreoffice-3-4-0/

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "This is fabulous news as we selected OpenOffice as our default office productivity software for KNOS, and were fortunate enough to have gotten advance code prior to the public release of 3.3 which was integrated into our OS. At the time of the controversy and Oracle's power play, we looked long and hard at Libre and weren't impressed with it at the time. Had this not been the outcome, we were willing to license through Oracle with great reluctance to keep OO as we have it working very nicely with KNOS.

We'll be watching this anxiously as we work on the next KNOS release later this year. I agree that having the Apache Foundation watching over OO is about the best outcome we could all hope for." }-

From whatever I've read so far, I've not got the feeling that this was the best outcome. For those, like IBM, opposed to "copyleft", maybe it is.

At a functional level, I have no clue as to which is superior. The feeling I got is that LibreOffice has more features. (I haven't done any actual feature or performance comparison.)

[Cimmerian]

Here's a PC World article which offers a little more insight as far new improvements.

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/229353/despite_oracles_antics_libreoffice_gets_a_big_update.html#tk.rss_news

I'm a long-time OO user, but I'm definitely going to check out Libre Office, based on some of the comments here, and various other reviews.

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "From whatever I've read so far, I've not got the feeling that this was the best outcome. For those, like IBM, opposed to "copyleft", maybe it is.

At a functional level, I have no clue as to which is superior. The feeling I got is that LibreOffice has more features. (I haven't done any actual feature or performance comparison.)" }-
For KNOS, the most urgent need is stability and reliability since our OS is intended primarily for institutional users and the non-technical. Anything that is the least bit unstable is therefore an anathema to our design philosophy. We ARE keeping an eye on Libre since it's the old OO team primarily, but like Chromium, too many bumps in the night at this time to take it seriously at least for our customers.

But we're always willing to go with anything that's rock solid and it's too early to make that call ...

[J_L]

-{ Quote: "LibreOffice just released 3.4" }-
Thanks, going to update soon. Interesting that they slimmed down the installer.

Nothing on Natty repository yet.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "... Anything that is the least bit unstable is therefore an anathema to our design philosophy. ..." }-

Thanks for the reply. I guess other than testers not too many folks would want instability.

If you don't mind, would you mind explaining this bit to me?

Why do you and a whole bunch of Linux distros want to provide an office suite as part of the package? I'm asking for a few reasons:
office suites don't come small
I might prefer another office suite
I might not want an office suite
including the office suite increases the download size by 10% at least (my rough guess)
I can't give you a specific link to back this up, but I've read (often enough) over here (http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum) that it's better to download OO.o from the (then) Sun/Oracle site rather than use the version packed with a distro. This answer was provided by a moderator in response to issues using OO.o on a Linux distro. So again, double work.

My guess is that "market research" favors bundling, but I still had to ask :D

Apologies in advance if the question is inappropriate in any way!

[Kevin McAleavey]

-{ Quote: "Thanks for the reply. I guess other than testers not too many folks would want instability.

If you don't mind, would you mind explaining this bit to me?" }-
No such thing as an "inappropriate question" in my book. :)

The answer however is a bit complicated with KNOS. First off, we're not Linux in any way shape or form. KNOS is based on BSD, same heritage as Macintosh's OSX. However, OSX branched from a much older and inherently less secure version of BSD. KNOS is intended for use by ordinary people with nothing to install, nothing to configure, and we can build a custom version to the exact specifications of any group which wishes to distribute a custom version to their own users without any additional effort on their part. So each KNOS build is, by design, a complete system on a bootable disk be it a DVD, USB stick, or installed onto hard drives by computer builders. KNOS is a completely locked-down and problem-free system, the dream of admins everywhere. And we exceed the wet dreams of the professionally paranoid too.

Our "retail" version for the general public was one of these custom builds based on our experience with corporate customers as to what a typical computer user needs in order to not require Windows or Mac. KNOS can actually replace the existing computer's contents although we designed it to be an alternative, leaving the original system completely alone and intact. A browser with flash, java and additional multimedia support, VOIP support (Skype and our SIP client), two good password managers, graphics capability for both photoshop-like graphics manipulation as well as vector graphics, a chat client, remote desktop clients, a video editor, audio recorder, bittorrents, and of course the ability to view and edit documents, make PDF's, presentation software, pretty much a completely portable whatever you find on your typical office computer or businessperson's travelling laptop along with all of the necessary security measures to keep the user absolutely safe and uninfected. That was the design criteria for our public release. Custom builds of course can be anything that the client wants us to build for them and include or not include. In our design, these were the various things that people asked for during our two year beta process and so they all found their way into what we offer as a "general public" release and those who helped us design it were satisfied with the end product. So it wasn't so much a desire to "bundle" as it was to be as inclusive as possible since custom builds require additional construction costs.

So in our design, we simply went with what proved to be the best environment ordinary folks wanted. For custom builds, we can put together anything the customer wants. We can even provide emulation of Windows, Linux, Solaris, even MS-DOS if that's what the corporate customer wants us to build for them. If you've ever heard of China's work on a secure OS called "Kylin" or "NeoKylin" that's what KNOS is, but we delivered a long time ago and I dare say, we're what the Chinese promised their own military and still haven't gotten done as yet. If I've made you curious, drop by our site and check the "about" stuff ... you might find it interesting. But no, we're not Linux or anything like it. Our stuff is for people who DON'T want to mess with their computer, just use it without any hassle or having to read the manual.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "LibreOffice just released 3.4" }-

This link may be useful to know about LibreOffice's versioning:
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LibreOffice-clarifies-version-numbering-1243446.html

[vasa1]

After reading about the recent events, my heart is on the side of TDF and LibreOffice.

[vasa1]

The portableapps.com package of LibreOffice 3.3.3 is coming soon (http://portableapps.com/node/28173#comment-178711).

Version 3.3.3 is the latest stable version. 3.4 is still the equivalent of a beta.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "

Version 3.3.3 is the latest stable version. 3.4 is still the equivalent of a beta." }-

Thanks for that info vasa1. :thumb:

[J_L]

-{ Quote: "Version 3.3.3 is the latest stable version. 3.4 is still the equivalent of a beta." }-
Sure one's more stable than the other, but how can you prove that? 3.4.0 has already gone through the beta and RC phase.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Sure one's more stable than the other, but how can you prove that? 3.4.0 has already gone through the beta and RC phase." }-

It's not my claim. I don't have to (and am not in a position to) prove anything.
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LibreOffice-clarifies-version-numbering-1243446.html

[J_L]

-{ Quote: "It's not my claim. I don't have to (and am not in a position to) prove anything.
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LibreOffice-clarifies-version-numbering-1243446.html" }-
Doesn't say anything about being equivalent to a beta, which is your claim.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Doesn't say anything about being equivalent to a beta, which is your claim." }-

And it doesn't say anything about it being an RC either.

[vasa1]

I prefer not to provide large quotes but from the article cited:
-{ Quote: "The developers say they also pre-announced this current beta release, 3.4 beta 5, to the community mailing list to enable a round of QA testing to "avoid the quality problems of the earlier 3.4 betas". LibreOffice users interested in building a "more stable LibreOffice 3.4" are invited to join the projects, development or localisation mailing lists and participate. Pre-release versions of LibreOffice will continue to be available on the project's pre-release downloads page." }-

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Today we are announcing the fifth beta release of LibreOffice 3.4.

In a slight change of communication strategy for our releases, from now on we will use the “announce” mailing list only for announcements of final and stable versions.

LibreOffice 3.4 Beta 5 is being announced on “projects”, “development” and “localization” mailing lists, in order to allow volunteers to perform the QA process. Also, the beta has been pre-announced on the community mailing lists for a first round of QA tests, to avoid the quality problems of the earlier 3.4 betas." }-

Source:
http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/05/13/announcing-a-new-beta-release/

What else is needed? I'll try and hunt it down if it's important.

[J_L]

Seriously, why are you linking to outdated sources? 3.4.0 RC was released at the end of May. Then 3.4.0 final at the beginning of June.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Seriously, why are you linking to outdated sources? 3.4.0 RC was released at the end of May. Then 3.4.0 final at the beginning of June." }-

Please read the entry dated 16 June 2011:
http://blog.documentfoundation.org/category/announcements/

The older links were to explain their versioning policy.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "Sure one's more stable than the other, but how can you prove that? 3.4.0 has already gone through the beta and RC phase." }-

I'm with vasa1 on this. The 3.4.0 Final release is essentially a beta.

! LibreOffice 3.4.0 Final (2011-06-03)
For early adopters (http://www.libreoffice.org/download/)

The 'early adopters' & the exclamation mark (!) sort of gives it away. I had a look at 3.4 & thought it had some stability issues. I have since replaced it with 3.3.3. Which is working fine. I really do need a good reliable word processor & although I greatly admire beta testers (especially of freeware), I can't quite afford to be a test pilot at the moment.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "The version of LibreOffice provided by Debian is 3.3.2.
...
Other distributions that provide LibreOffice are Ubuntu, PCLinuxOS (in repos), openSUSE, Fedora, Mandriva, Sabayon, Mageia, and many others.

LibreOffice 3.4.0 was release on June 1 and version 3.4.1 is expected June 29. Stable version 3.3.3 was released June 15." }-
Source: http://ostatic.com/blog/debian-dumps-openoffice-for-libreoffice dated June 23 2011

-{ Quote: "Speaking of The Document Foundation, Italo Vignoli of the steering committee, today announced the release of LibreOffice 3.3.3. This latest release "fixes several bugs and improves the security of the suite, to specifically address the needs of corporate deployments, where stability is more important than new features."

LibreOffice 3.3.3 is the latest update to the 3.3.0 branch, which is actually identical to the last release candidate, and contains only bug fixes and translation updates. It is aimed at those who are very cautious and wait until something is long stable before upgrading. Version 3.4.0 was released June 1 for those who prefer the latest and greatest. Two more 3.3 releases are planned for August 31 and October 19. 3.4.1 is planned for the end of June. " }-
http://ostatic.com/blog/libreoffice-3-3-3-released-for-the-cautious dated Jun 16 2011

[J_L]

What do you guys call a beta of a "beta" then? To be honest, I simply don't agree.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "What do you guys call a beta of a "beta" then? " }-

An early adopter version?

[DOSawaits]

I'd call it a MajorGeeks Final.

[vasa1]

These were my words:-{ Quote: "Version 3.3.3 is the latest stable version. 3.4 is still the equivalent of a beta.
" }-

Let's leave semantics at the door and try to contribute useful information.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "LibreOffice 3.4.1 can be downloaded from the following page: http://www.libreoffice.org/download/.

Large enterprises deploying LibreOffice on desktop PCs, are still recommended to deploy LibreOffice 3.3.3, which has been tested over several months by thousands of people worldwide, and are encouraged to call on professional support services. LibreOffice 3.4.2, available at the end of July, will target enterprise deployments.
" }-
http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/07/01/libreoffice-3-4-1-provides-stable-new-features-for-every-user/

A bit confusing! While the link covers "every-user", large enterprises are recommended to stay on 3.3.3 until 3.4.2 is available.

[J_L]

So, who's finally updating? I sure am.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "So, who's finally updating? I sure am." }-

I would have but the size is an issue for me (because of poor connectivity at my end plus capped internet usage).

It's easy to ask for but differential updates would be wonderful but maybe it is not technically feasible.

(Another point is that I use the portableapps.com version and I don't know what's happening at that end :( )

[J_L]

This version is smaller than 3.3 though. I don't see any issues if you've updated to 3.3.3.

[Daveski17]

OK, this is starting to get a bit weird. According to Wikipedia the current Stable release is 3.4.1 (1 July 2011; 1 day ago).

Their download page considers that LibreOffice 3.3.3 Final (2011-06-16) is the predominant stable release.

I don't want to sound obtuse but:

Safely for production need by most users - LibreOffice 3.4.2, available at the end of July, will target enterprise deployments.

Sounds like a form of beta to me, unless it totally replaces 3.3.3, although I would have thought it would replace 3.4.1.

I assumed that LibreOffice 3.4.1 Final (2011-07-01) is also a beta.

:wacko:

[J_L]

You're English seriously, read it more carefully. What kind of beta is safely for production need by most users?
Enterprise deployments of course require more stability, hence they're using old IE, not the newest stable Chrome or whatever.

[SirPeterPan]

When will they introduce some autoupdate feature?

Which also should be modular for small releases.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "You're English seriously, read it more carefully. What kind of beta is safely for production need by most users?
Enterprise deployments of course require more stability, hence they're using old IE, not the newest stable Chrome or whatever." }-

I know that I'm seriously confused. 3.3.3 is working fine for me & is more stable than the 3.4 release I tried earlier. I'm sticking with it for now!

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "I know that I'm seriously confused. 3.3.3 is working fine for me & is more stable than the 3.4 release I tried earlier. I'm sticking with it for now!" }-

I think their announcement could certainly have been worded much better.

I'm still on LO 3.3.2 (the latest version available from portableapps.com).

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "I think their announcement could certainly have been worded much better." }-

Definitely. :wacko:

[vasa1]

http://portableapps.com/news/2011-07-06_-_libreoffice_portable_3.3.3_and_3.4.1_released

According to this page, http://portableapps.com/apps/office/libreoffice_portable,
-{ Quote: "Version Note: 3.4.1 should be safe for most users, but will install to a separate LibreOfficePortableTest directory for now. LibreOffice 3.4.2, available at the end of July, will target enterprise deployments and will then be the main LibreOffice Portable version going forward." }-

I'll wait for 3.4.2.

[vasa1]

Someone has reported that ... -{ Quote: "Norton's auto protect identified "Suspicious.Cloud" in scalc.exe, sbase.exe and sdraw.exe." }-

It seems it is a routine FP according to this: -http://portableapps.com/news/2011-07-06_-_libreoffice_portable_3.3.3_and_3.4.1_released#comment-179304-

[MinDokan]

Using 3.4.1 on Ubuntu. Avoid Unity, it won't work :P
Classic Ubuntu, no problem so far :) No more crashes :D

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Using 3.4.1 on Ubuntu. Avoid Unity, it won't work :P
Classic Ubuntu, no problem so far :) No more crashes :D" }-

I've just managed to set up a dual boot of Windows and Linux Mint 11 (Gnome). LM11 comes with LibO 3.3.2 installed. It seems to load much quicker than what I've been used to.

[vasa1]

I also got my macros, pretty simple ones, to work after I saved my Win .ods files on the Mint system.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "The Document Foundation (TDF) has announced the release of version 3.4.2 of the open source LibreOffice office suite. According to TDF Steering Committee member Italo Vignoli, the third release in the 3.4.x branch of LibreOffice is now ready for both individuals and enterprises; version 3.4.0 and 3.4.1 were aimed at power users and early adopters, and were not recommended for production use." }-
-http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LibreOffice-3-4-2-is-enterprise-ready-1315720.html-

Let's see when the repositories start offering this. I'm in no real hurry for it since -{ Quote: "Version 3.4.3 is scheduled to arrive "by the end of August" and will include stability improvements and security fixes." }-

In edit:
-{ Quote: "The remaining commits came from a combination of pre-TDF contributors, Canonical developers, and organizations like Bobiciel, CodeThink, Lanedo, SIL, and Tata Consultancy Services." }-
Nice to see Tata Consultancy Services mentioned.

[Romagnolo1973]

LO 3.4.2 Stable for download is out
http://www.libreoffice.org/download/

The Internet, August 1, 2011 – The Document Foundation (TDF) announces LibreOffice 3.4.2, the third version of the 3.4 family, targeting both private individuals and enterprises. LibreOffice 3.4.2 fixes the majority of the most-important bugs identified by users in the previous version, and can be deployed for production needs by most enterprises.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "LO 3.4.2 Stable for download is out
http://www.libreoffice.org/download/

The Internet, August 1, 2011 – The Document Foundation (TDF) announces LibreOffice 3.4.2, the third version of the 3.4 family, targeting both private individuals and enterprises. LibreOffice 3.4.2 fixes the majority of the most-important bugs identified by users in the previous version, and can be deployed for production needs by most enterprises." }-

Yes! I downloaded the Linux version from there via torrent. All is well.

[DOSawaits]

How does this compare to the previous Oo ?
I suspect not so many people that used OpenOffice.org are keen on uninstalling Oo, and then install LibreOffice only to see that it's actually the same thing with just some little changes. Does this start up faster than Oo ?
I mean it takes all 45 seconds to simple open a small spreadsheet in Oo here, whould Libreo open this faster ?

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "How does this compare to the previous Oo ?
I suspect not so many people that used OpenOffice.org are keen on uninstalling Oo, and then install LibreOffice only to see that it's actually the same thing with just some little changes. Does this start up faster than Oo ?
I mean it takes all 45 seconds to simple open a small spreadsheet in Oo here, whould Libreo open this faster ?" }-

You could read the release notes to know if Libre Office is "actually the same thing with just some little changes."

[vasa1]

And there's this, FWIW:
-{ Quote: "One, which I really approve of, is the switch to LibreOffice in place of OpenOffice for the office suite. Again, the new model office suite was faster than OpenOffice. In addition, LibreOffice does much better with Microsoft Office document compatibility. Most, if not all, of the Linux desktop distributions are switching to LibreOffice. It’s a smart move." }-
-http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/mint-11-the-un-unity-ubuntu-desktop-linux/8956-

[JRViejo]

FYI. LibreOffice Portable 3.4.2 (complete office suite) Released (http://portableapps.com/news/2011-08-10_-_libreoffice_portable_3.4.2_released) for PA Platform users, courtesy of PortableApps.com.

[gerardwil]

-{ Quote: "The Internet, August 31, 2011 – The Document Foundation (TDF) maintains the speedy pace of LibreOffice development with the announcement of version 3.4.3, intended for enterprise deployments. The new release arrives two weeks after version 3.3.4 (intended for more-conservative users) and one month after the previous release of the 3.4 family, which provides a larger feature set based on cleaner and leaner code." }-

the document foundation announces libreoffice 3.4.3/ (http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/08/31/the-document-foundation-announces-libreoffice-3-4-3/)

[Daveski17]

I'm quite happy with 3.3.4 at the moment. I'm keeping an eye on developments though.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "I'm quite happy with 3.3.4 at the moment. I'm keeping an eye on developments though." }-

Yes. It's "only" an office suite. I don't feel the urge to upgrade the way I feel when a new browser version is out. And I use LibO for Calc and Writer just a little when I want to modify some html. That's why I don't feel too much pressure to have the latest n greatest.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "Yes. It's "only" an office suite. I don't feel the urge to upgrade the way I feel when a new browser version is out. And I use LibO for Calc and Writer just a little when I want to modify some html. That's why I don't feel too much pressure to have the latest n greatest." }-

I really do need a good stable word processor & I thought the #3.4 series was a little buggy. 3.3.4 does everything I need it to. It's nice to see LibO developing stuff, but for my needs, 3.3.4 is more than adequate. I know that makes me a 'conservative' user LOL!

[JRViejo]

FYI. LibreOffice Portable 3.4.3 (complete office suite) Released (http://portableapps.com/news/2011-09-10_-_libreoffice_portable_3.4.3_released) for PA Platform users, courtesy of PortableApps.com.

Also, LibreOffice Portable 3.3.4 Legacy (complete office suite) Released (http://portableapps.com/news/2011-09-10_-_libreoffice_portable_3.3.4_released).

[vasa1]

Looks like this Calc extension, Copy only visible cells (http://extensions-test.libreoffice.org/extension-center/copy-only-visible-cells), brings a feature that I missed quite a bit, when compared to Excel.

The dev is looking for volunteers to make the extension available in more languages:
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Contribute-to-Copy-only-visible-cells-extension-project-td3353692.html

In edit:
Just installed. It's going to be really useful for me especially for processing stuff after subtotals.
Added "Calc" in the first sentence

[vasa1]

It seems that there's a macro from a while ago that does the same thing:
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=44176&sid=36a2dc4a3bebcc2d0e4e03082f573a55#p203988

[vasa1]

LibO is One:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/28/libreoffice_celebrates_first_birthday/

[vasa1]

I think it maybe a bit far away but ... LibreOffice Online Prototype (http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-Conference-Announcements-td3421769.html) has been announced.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "LibO is One:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/28/libreoffice_celebrates_first_birthday/" }-

Happy Birthday LibO.

[J_L]

-{ Quote: "I think it maybe a bit far away but ... LibreOffice Online Prototype (http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice-Conference-Announcements-td3421769.html) has been announced." }-
Very interesting, I may use that.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "...
I've subscribed to a few of the LibreOffice mailing lists and they have the usual yadda, yadda. Quite intriguing was the lack of consensus about a dedicated forum versus a mailing list.
..." }-

The LibreOffice people seem to be waking up to the realization that a dedicated forum may be an asset. I don't like mailing lists and the idiots who multiquote.

[vasa1]

Another distro, Fedora 16 (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/17/fedora_16_review/page2.html), doesn't include LibreOffice in its CD to keep the size manageable.
-{ Quote: "Missing from the live CD are office applications, such as the new LibreOffice which is available via the repos but is no longer installed." }-Not a big deal but I hope it prods TDF to try trimming the fat.

[mack_guy911]

i just installed libre office 3.4.4 its awesome pretty fast and smooth so far

[Carver]

-{ Quote: "i just installed libre office 3.4.4 its awesome pretty fast and smooth so far" }-
My main complaint with the old openoffice 3.30 was it opened very slooow, I am very happy to see that LibreOffice opens very fast.

[JRViejo]

FYI. LibreOffice Portable 3.4.4 (complete office suite) Released (http://portableapps.com/news/2011-11-20_-_libreoffice_portable_3.4.4_released) for PA Platform users, courtesy of PortableApps.com.

[Daveski17]

I've just swapped the LibO 'legacy' version for 3.4.4 on my notebook. It's looking good. It opens fast & seems quite stable. All going well, pretty soon I'll swap the legacy version for 3.4.4 on my desktop as well. :)

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "The LibreOffice people seem to be waking up to the realization that a dedicated forum may be an asset. I don't like mailing lists and the idiots who multiquote." }-

They're testing something here (http://osqa-test.libreoffice.org/question/8/how-do-you-like-the-new-theme).

[EboO]

Where can we found this theme please ?

[bonedriven]

Maybe it's a noob question. But can Microsoft Office open formats like odt, odf etc by default? It happened several times that people couldn't open my doc created by OO. But I have heard that those formats are international standard. So I don't understand why Microsoft office doesn't support this international standard?

[Bob D]

-{ Quote: "...But can Microsoft Office open formats like odt, odf etc by default?..." }-I believe only Office 2010 can natively open / save .odt files.
For Office 03-07, you'll need the Sun ODF Plugin. Brief info here:
http://www.windowsreference.com/ms-office/how-to-open-odt-files-in-microsoft-word-20072003/

When sending files to others (assuming they're running some flavor of M$ Office), I typically save-as .doc., xls. Like it or not, these proprietary formats are the de-facto standard.
Hopefully some day, this will change.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "Maybe it's a noob question. But can Microsoft Office open formats like odt, odf etc by default? " }-

AFAIK you have to save .odt (Open/LibreOffice) files as .doc (Microsoft) by changing them to .doc files in the 'Save As' drop-down menu. Then they can be opened by Open/LibreOffice Writer or Microsoft Word. It's the same process with Impress & Powerpoint files.

-{ Quote: "It happened several times that people couldn't open my doc created by OO. But I have heard that those formats are international standard. " }-

Yeah, it's really frustrating, I know how you feel.

-{ Quote: "So I don't understand why Microsoft office doesn't support this international standard?" }-

I'm pretty sure I do. M$ want you to pay an *arm & a leg for MS Office. ;)

*MS Word alone is around 80 - 100 quid (Pounds Sterling) in my country.

[Robin A.]

-{ Quote: "I believe only Office 2010 can natively open / save .odt files.
" }-

Office 2007 supports ODF formats since SP2, which was released in 2009 (SP3, which includes SP2, is available now).

"Supports" means a basic support. There are incompatibilities, especially with spreadsheets, and some Office "features" are not supported by ODF.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "Office 2007 supports ODF formats since SP2, which was released in 2009 (SP3, which includes SP2, is available now).

"Supports" means a basic support. There are incompatibilities, especially with spreadsheets, and some Office "features" are not supported by ODF." }-

Unfortunately, many colleges, institutions, businesses & the like often run rather elderly versions of MS Office.

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "Unfortunately, many colleges, institutions, businesses & the like often run rather elderly versions of MS Office." }-
You can say that again. A heck of a lot of business is still on Office 2003...

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "You can say that again. A heck of a lot of business is still on Office 2003..." }-

LOL! Too true. I just automatically save .odt files as .doc files these days, especially if I know I am going to be emailing them. It saves a lot of hassle.

[vasa1]

Here's a link (http://extensions.libreoffice.org/extension-center) to a LibreOffice page boasting a hundred extensions. Many of the extensions are dictionary-related stuff.

[Daveski17]

That looks good. 8)

[vasa1]

Could You be the LibreOffice ‘Bug Hunting Hero’? (http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/12/could-you-be-the-libreoffice-bug-hunting-hero/)
-{ Quote: "Developers and eagle-eyed users will come together on the 28th and 29th of December to test the upcoming major release of the open-source office suite. ...
..." }-
Hmmm ... Nice timing.

[Daveski17]

So, when is the official 2.5 scheduled for release then? At this rate, I may go back to OO.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "... I may go back to OO." }-
Excellent. Let us know how you get along.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "Excellent. Let us know how you get along." }-

I'm just not so sure that LibO needs a Chrome-style rapid release cycle.

*Holds back temptation to say 'smartarse' out aloud ... * ;)

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "... At this rate, I may go back to OO." }-
You maybe interested in [Solved] OOo Crashes when .doc opened since installed IE9 (http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=39762). I'm not.

[JRViejo]

FYI. LibreOffice Portable 3.4.4.1 (complete office suite) Released (http://portableapps.com/news/2011-12-25_-_libreoffice_portable_3.4.4.1_released) for PA Platform (http://portableapps.com/news/2011-12-08_-_portableapps.com_platform_10.0_released) users, courtesy of PortableApps.com.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "You maybe interested in [Solved] OOo Crashes when .doc opened since installed IE9 (http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=39762). I'm not." }-

Oh dear ... IE9 does it again. And to think MS want to force this as an update. >:(

[Daveski17]

It appears Apache will have a new build for OO. (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/12/22/apache_openoffice_2012/)

[Robin A.]

A program that crashes because of IE9 is just incompatible with the current Windows 7, and should be modified accordingly.

About LibreOffice and OO, it is a source of confusion for users and an utterly waste of resources to continue developing these two "projects" in parallel. At least one of the two should be abandoned.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "A program that crashes because of IE9 is just incompatible with the current Windows 7, and should be modified accordingly. " }-

Is that necessarily true? I thought IE (9 or otherwise) could be completely uninstalled from Win 7. There could be a plethora of reasons why people are suffering crashes. It obviously isn't affecting everyone either. I haven't noticed it yet anyway. Although to be fair I don't use OO much, if at all.

-{ Quote: "About LibreOffice and OO, it is a source of confusion for users and an utterly waste of resources to continue developing these two "projects" in parallel. At least one of the two should be abandoned." }-

It's nice to have the choice. There's nothing wrong with a good fork. ;)

[vasa1]

http://ostatic.com/blog/libreoffice-3-4-5-released

I wonder if ctrl+F (Linux version) will work as it does elsewhere.

[Daveski17]

Thanks for the head's up. :thumb:

[bonedriven]

Seems the 3.4.4.1 portable download is down at the moment? The other download is ok for me though.

[JRViejo]

FYI. LibreOffice Portable 3.4.5 (complete office suite) Released (http://portableapps.com/news/2012-01-20_-_libreoffice_portable_3.4.5_released) for PA Platform (http://portableapps.com/news/2011-12-08_-_portableapps.com_platform_10.0_released) users, courtesy of PortableApps.com.

[Daveski17]

LibreOffice 3.5.0 Final (2012-02-14) (http://www.libreoffice.org/download/)

"When you visit this page, we try to detect your system, and offer you the right download automatically, but we may not succeed in all cases."

It helps if you have Java enabled when you visit the site.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "LibreOffice 3.5.0 Final (2012-02-14) (http://www.libreoffice.org/download/)

"When you visit this page, we try to detect your system, and offer you the right download automatically, but we may not succeed in all cases."

It helps if you have Java enabled when you visit the site." }-

Did you mean javascript?

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "Did you mean javascript?" }-

Yes, sorry. :P ;D

[Daveski17]

"For Windows users that have OpenOffice.org installed, we advise uninstalling that beforehand, because it registers the same file type associations."

I recommend this as well.

[JRViejo]

FYI. LibreOffice Portable 3.5.0 (complete office suite) Released (http://portableapps.com/news/2012-02-17_-_libreoffice_portable_3.5.0_released) for PA Platform (http://portableapps.com/news/2011-12-08_-_portableapps.com_platform_10.0_released) users, courtesy of PortableApps.com.

[vasa1]

LibreOffice comes to the Intel AppUp center (http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LibreOffice-comes-to-the-Intel-AppUp-center-1441385.html)

Intel AppUp (http://www.appup.com/what-is-appup/index): never heard of it but "The Intel AppUpSM center delivers all the latest PC apps, all in one convenient place. With tons of apps from functional to fun-there's no better place to get more out of your PC than the Intel AppUpSM center.

Every app is scanned by Intel for your protection. And if you don't love your new app you get your money back, guaranteed." LibreOffice is free:
http://www.appup.com/app-details/LibreOffice ;)

Edit: "and will provide an exciting feature for all Ultrabook users" from http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/02/23/intel_libreoffice_the_document_foundation/

[vasa1]

There's more here (http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/intel-distributes-libreoffice-can-microsoft-be-pleased/10428?tag=nl.e539).
But there are a few things that I don't quite get:
Why do they now refer to "LibreOffice for Windows from SUSE"? Previous versions didn't have this qualifier.
Is this an official "fork" since (Intel) "engineers have worked with the LibreOffice codebase to optimize it for Intel hardware"? If it indeed being optimized for Intel hardware, why restrict their efforts to just Windows?

[vasa1]

LibreOffice on track for cloud service next month (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/03/22/libreoffice_cloud_service/)-{ Quote: "but the group is now also ready to go live for cloud services in April. That said, the team reserves the right to hold off on launch until the last few software fixes come in, TDF spokesman Italo Vignoli told The Register.

"At the moment we are focusing more on this because of some of the opportunities that are arising, which we can't disclose now," he explained. "We will have the cloud version out in April."
" }-
Edit: Oops! (http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/LibreOffice-Cloud-not-coming-next-month-1479077.html)

[Daveski17]

OK, I was a huge fan of LibO when it was first released. I have been upgrading it as the releases came out. Today with 3.5.1 I tried to run an Impress presentation. It would not run on any of my computers but would run on a portable Open Office version. I have uninstalled LibO & gone back to Open Office which works perfectly.

As soon as I can remember my LibO forum password I will post about this problem.

For the foreseeable future I am sticking with Open Office.

Nice try LibO ... but no cigar. >:(

[TOMxEU]

Indeed, 3.5 messed up a few things, I have problem with this: http://en.libreofficeforum.org/node/2503

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Indeed, 3.5 messed up a few things, I have problem with this: http://en.libreofficeforum.org/node/2503" }-
I'm not sure I understood your issue, but if I don't want to copy formulas, I just "paste special" and untick "paste all" and "formulae". This is with 3.4.4. I haven't moved to 3.5.

[TOMxEU]

Actually I need to copy the formulas, but it copies them with a reference file name and values. I just need to create an exact copy and it is impossible in 3.5.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "Indeed, 3.5 messed up a few things, I have problem with this: http://en.libreofficeforum.org/node/2503" }-

I honestly think that the Document Foundation are pulling a 'Mozilla' & going too fast too soon. I have the feeling that they desperately want to make their mark & prove themselves. I was initially impressed with this enthusiasm & regular upgrading, but to release an upgrade without the ability to run a relatively straightforward Powerpoint/Impress presentation is dropping a serious bollock.

I installed OpenOffice on my desktop computer when I had it custom built just over a year ago. It is invaluable to me. I installed LibreOffice when it came out & ran both of them (one for back-up). With the last release of LibO it was advised to uninstall any versions of OpenOffice. Only recently I uninstalled OO 2.4 from my notebook.

I have to go with what I can trust, so I have gone back with OpenOffice. Just a word of warning, if you download OpenOffice 3.3.0 it may try to install an out of date version of Java in the installation process. Avoid this if your (32 bit) Java is up to date as it can cause problems which can only be solved by a fresh install of 32 bit Java.

I doubt whether I'll be installing LibO again for a long time (if ever). OpenOffice works, is stable & isn't unnecessarily upgraded every ten minutes or so. I've used it for at least four years, apart from the few months hiatus of using LibO, & it has never let me down.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "I haven't moved to 3.5." }-

I wouldn't bother, it's rubbish. Do yourself a favour & install Apache Open Office (https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/) & word process, spreadsheet & make presentations to your heart's content!

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "I wouldn't bother, it's rubbish. Do yourself a favour & install Apache Open Office (https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/) & word process, spreadsheet & make presentations to your heart's content!" }-
Let's see. LibO 3.5 is slated to be packaged with Ubuntu 12.04. If it works for me, I'll continue using it. I use Calc the most and Writer a bit. I don't use the other aspects.

BTW,
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/
and
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Users-f1639498.html
are a couple of additional places to get help. The first is useful for both AOO and LibO. The second is only for LibO (AFAICT).

Edit: there's this as well, -http://ask.libreoffice.org/questions/-, looks very much the askubuntu one.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "Let's see. LibO 3.5 is slated to be packaged with Ubuntu 12.04. If it works for me, I'll continue using it. I use Calc the most and Writer a bit. I don't use the other aspects." }-

Hopefully it will work well on Ubuntu for you.

-{ Quote: "BTW,
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/
and
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Users-f1639498.html
are a couple of additional places to get help. The first is useful for both AOO and LibO. The second is only for LibO (AFAICT).

Edit: there's this as well, -http://ask.libreoffice.org/questions/-, looks very much the askubuntu one." }-

OK thanks for the links. Now, if only I could remember my OO forums password! ;)

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Hopefully it will work well on Ubuntu for you.
OK thanks for the links. Now, if only I could remember my OO forums password! ;)" }-

Won't they send you a new one?

Re. LibO on Ubuntu, I'll be first making a Live USB and checking things out. I've invested quite a bit of my (and other people's) effort in setting up Calc just the way I like it and I won't be amused to find that an update trashes all that!

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "Won't they send you a new one?" }-

It's OK, I think it's written down in my 'Important Passwords not to forget ... Do Not Lose This Little Book' book.

-{ Quote: "Re. LibO on Ubuntu, I'll be first making a Live USB and checking things out. I've invested quite a bit of my (and other people's) effort in setting up Calc just the way I like it and I won't be amused to find that an update trashes all that!" }-

Very wise.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Actually I need to copy the formulas, but it copies them with a reference file name and values. I just need to create an exact copy and it is impossible in 3.5." }-
The nature of the formula should make it necessary to copy a reference.
Original: =(C14/SUM($'Page 2'.J42))*B4
Maybe I don't understand correctly, but it seems that at least two sheets are required for this formula since there is reference to a cell, J42, on what seems to be another sheet, 'Page 2'.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Berlin, April 5, 2012 - The Document Foundation announces LibreOffice
3.5.2, the third version of the 3.5 family, targeting private
individuals and enterprises. LibreOffice 3.5.2 fixes an additional large
number of the bugs identified by TDF QA experts and LibreOffice users
worldwide. " }-
Source (http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/The-Document-Foundation-announces-LibreOffice-3-5-2-td3886925.html)

[Daveski17]

I hope they've fixed the bugs that were bugging me. Either way, I'm not returning to LibO any time soon.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "I hope they've fixed the bugs that were bugging me. Either way, I'm not returning to LibO any time soon." }-
I'm currently exploring Google Docs. For a long time I thought it would not be appropriate for me because of my pathetic internet speed but I'm pleasantly surprised!

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "I'm currently exploring Google Docs. For a long time I thought it would not be appropriate for me because of my pathetic internet speed but I'm pleasantly surprised!" }-

I think it has changed somewhat recently. I always worry when Google feel the need to 'improve' stuff. Google Docs can actually be quite useful. I use it a bit, unfortunately the ridiculously over-the-top security on our work laptops won't let me access documents on it. Which sort of defeats the object if you ask me. >:(

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "... Google feel the need to 'improve' stuff. ..." }-
IMO, they are improvements. Anyway, that seems to be the trend with most software companies, so rather than whinge about everything new, I'm playing along and adapting as best as I can.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "IMO, they are improvements. " }-

*Cough* Of course they are. ::) (They aren't reading your posts you know, well maybe ... ) ;)

-{ Quote: "Anyway, that seems to be the trend with most software companies, so rather than whinge about everything new, I'm playing along and adapting as best as I can." }-

Yes, evolution, adapting to environments, survival of the fittest. That's why humans are at the top of the food chain.

Resistance is futile ...

[JRViejo]

FYI. LibreOffice Portable 3.5.2 (complete office suite) Released (http://portableapps.com/news/2012-04-16_-_libreoffice_portable_3.5.2_released) for PA Platform (http://portableapps.com/news/2011-12-08_-_portableapps.com_platform_10.0_released) users, courtesy of PortableApps.com.

[vasa1]

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#Getting_Started_with_LibreOffice but it seems to be for 3.4.

[vasa1]

3.5.3 (http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2012/05/02/the-document-foundation-announces-libreoffice-3-5-3/) !

[Daveski17]

Yes, but does 3.5.3 actually function properly? None of these Speedy Gonzales like upgrades are encouraging me to change back from OpenOffice. In fact, it appears that Apache are going to take their time with the next OO upgrade. Seems wise to me.

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Yes, but does 3.5.3 actually function properly? None of these Speedy Gonzales like upgrades are encouraging me to change back from OpenOffice. In fact, it appears that Apache are going to take their time with the next OO upgrade. Seems wise to me." }-
I'll know in about 6 months because Ubuntu provides updates of LibO every six months if they feel the updates aren't security-related or critical in some other way. I'll just enjoy 3.5.2 till then. From what I read of the politics involved, I'd use anything, even SkyDrive, than the Apache version.

BTW, kudos on "In fact, it appears". The English, she's alive and well.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "I'll know in about 6 months because Ubuntu provides updates of LibO every six months if they feel the updates aren't security-related or critical in some other way. I'll just enjoy 3.5.2 till then. From what I read of the politics involved, I'd use anything, even SkyDrive, than the Apache version." }-

Politics aside, I just need an office suite that is dependable, reliable & works; LibO isn't any of those things. I think in about five years or so it could be a contender. I'm an anarchist anyway, what do I care about politics?

-{ Quote: "BTW, kudos on "In fact, it appears". The English, she's alive and well." }-

Hmmmm .... *Ponders the use of the definite article & overall syntax in that sentence.* ;)

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Politics aside, I just need an office suite that is dependable, reliable & works; LibO isn't any of those things. ..." }-
WFM. I guess I'm not an "advanced" user :(

[vasa1]

Here's someone (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=11899154&postcount=261) with a problem relating to Impress in 3.5.2.2.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "WFM. I guess I'm not an "advanced" user :(" }-

I only really use Writer & Impress. In my experience LibO has always been a bit glitchy. Maybe this is more of a 'Windows' thing than anything else, IDK.

I had problems with even running the portable (Portable Apps) off a USB stick. The desktop LibO seemed crash-happy if you set it to start in the systems tray, amongst various other minor gremlins. Plus, I can't even run both OO & LibO together now (LibO claims that both programs share file paths & so can't be run together), which I'm not so sure isn't a bit of a 'pork pie'.

I gave LibO several months of evaluation, but when I couldn't even run/compose a fairly simple Impress presentation I had to seriously re-evaluate my use of it. I ended up composing & eventually running that presentation (for my students) on a portable version of OO (3.2). I decided to re-install OO on all of my PCs & remove LibO.

I understand that the Document Foundation want to prove themselves & it's good that the program is being developed by others, & not just Apache, but I honestly think that they are overreaching themselves a bit. As I said earlier, in a few years it may mature into a really great program.

I just need a solid dependable office suite, unfortunately LibO is not that.

[bonedriven]

I don't like all these updates... I don't feel anything changed. And each time it's a big download and totally uninstall and install. Very very annoying to me.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "I don't like all these updates... I don't feel anything changed. And each time it's a big download and totally uninstall and install. Very very annoying to me." }-

And that was the other reason I changed back to OpenOffice.

[bonedriven]

-{ Quote: "And that was the other reason I changed back to OpenOffice." }-

I actually don't even know much about the difference between OpenOffice and libre office. LOL. I changed to libre because I heard people saying it's better! :argh:

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "I actually don't even know much about the difference between OpenOffice and libre office. LOL." }-

Well, essentially LibO is a fork of OpenOffice. The Document Foundation have definitely forked it if you ask me LOL.

-{ Quote: "I changed to libre because I heard people saying it's better! :argh:" }-

It isn't. Take my advice & change back. :thumb:

[Frank648]

LibO is getting worse with every release.
Problems are not fixed.
i.e. try Calc, mark some cells and try to to put a frame around.
Use different line strength and be surprised...

Back to OOo, actually to this update from 3.3
http://teamopenoffice.org/en/free-download.html?id=48:downloadmatrix-en&catid=14:pages
This one just works :thumb:

[Nick Rhodes]

-{ Quote: "LibO is getting worse with every release.
Problems are not fixed.
i.e. try Calc, mark some cells and try to to put a frame around.
Use different line strength and be surprised..." }-

A border ? If so works fine for me, I just tried. Do you have a link to the bug report ?

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "LibO is getting worse with every release.
Problems are not fixed." }-

I'll say ... >:(

-{ Quote: "i.e. try Calc, mark some cells and try to to put a frame around.
Use different line strength and be surprised..." }-

Oh, I've had enough surprises with LibO to last at least one lifetime. :o

-{ Quote: "Back to OOo, actually to this update from 3.3
http://teamopenoffice.org/en/free-download.html?id=48:downloadmatrix-en&catid=14:pages
This one just works :thumb:" }-

That link looks interesting, thanks.

[Frank648]

As in post #207 below
-{ Quote: "Can't you use a decent upload service? This forum has an upload facility." }-

Sorry, was not aware of it.
Removed link and my Board-PW to prevent further mishaps...

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Here is a pix of what I mean...
" }-
... This forum has an upload facility.

Edit: I trimmed the quote and my post.

[vasa1]

This is what I get with LibreOffice 3.5.3.2 on Ubuntu 12.04

[bonedriven]

-{ Quote: "
It isn't. Take my advice & change back. :thumb:" }-

I'm waiting for other 3 guys popping out and saying it IS better...:D

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "I'm waiting for other 3 guys popping out and saying it IS better...:D" }-

You may be waiting a long time ....