Java & JavaScript

[John Bull]

I make no apologies for raising this subject. If it has been raised a thousand times before, it makes no difference.

Please do not refer me to any boring previous links and posts, I have read just about everything I can handle connected with this subject and still do not understand what the hell it is all about. It is as attractive to me as AIDS. If this new post is not acceptable due to some previous coverage, then delete it, no harm done, I will no doubt get it all sorted out in time.

JAVA, JAVASCRIPT ? Different topics I am told. Well, how impressive, I am amazed. I have read everything I can about these subjects on the net and all the Java stuff tells me it is an absolute necessity for Internet activity and the best thing since sliced bread. All the user comments say to get rid of all Java files and folders and do a Born Free.

I simply am totally confused by this maggot. Do I need it or do I not ? I have asked the most simple of questions on my searches, but only get a collection of meaningless Gobble-de-Gook to read. The words YES and NO are not in their vocabulary, neither is a command of simple English.

If I put "Java" in my Windows search, I get 56 items listed. "JavaScript" comes up with only 4 items.

After all this parasitic infestation and installing Java from the vendors site, on a Java test, up comes the message "Java not enabled". I have even been given a plugin that has no Uninstall, only a Disable button. So I have got to house this unwanted Bot-Fly for ever more. No Java item appears on my Add/Remove list. The damned pest has gone anonymous. I do not even know how to exterminate this infection without doing damage.

I appeal to the expertise of my Wilders colleagues to give some rational answer to the Java plague, do we need it ? How the devil do we get it to work ? And, can I delete all the Java maggots I find if not needed without damaging my system ?

One thing I will not do is to be poked back into the mass of meaningless junk already available on the net. Trying to find an intelligible item is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

My grateful thanks for any simple and sensible remarks on this subject.

John Bull

[dw426]

John, Java is a programming language, pure and simple, just as Javascript is. There's no mystery behind either one, they are what they are, and both are now or have been used extensively in software and on the web. Java has slowly given way to Flash, Javascript is, of course, still widely used, both to our advantage and disadvantage as you well know. The answer as to whether either one is needed is completely dependent on what software you use and what websites you visit.

With Javascript disabled, too many websites still break or don't function at all. Java, on the other hand, is barely used at all these days, at least on websites. Where you will find it is on old web-based game sites like Pogo.com (which happens to be one of the most behind the times websites there is), some "system checking" websites, and corporate websites like banks, healthcare, and that sort. You'll know if you need Java and don't have it. I have one or two places I go that needs it, otherwise it would be gone from my system.

[Kees1958]

John,

Early 90-ties java was launched with a concept (J2EE see http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/J/J2EE.html). This concept was called thin-client. The idea behind it was that all kind of service providers were available in the cloud. When you needed functionality little programs were made available by smart web based applications.

It opened the road to seamless computing. I would have a smart card or chip based token (e.g. the small chip in your telephone) and the cloud knew who I was. Benefit of this approach was that the clients (PC's smart phones, hand helds, your TV or microwave) did not have to have much computing power since everything was processed on the servers of the service providers. So I would put my smartcard in my PC and it would make available a virtual desktop with all the applications I needed. When I needed extra functionality I would pay on use by use basis. With this concept I could turn any PC into my PC by simply putting in my smartcard.

When I would drive home and passed an electronic billboard on the highway, a meal would be shown on this electronic billboard, I would simply press the accept button of my GPS and it would remember. The GPS would tell me which supermarket in the neigbourhood had all the ingredients. I could opt for order via my phone. And as I arrived at the supermarket I could get a shopping/route list to get the stuff myself, when I paid some extra it would be packed for me, when I had paid some more I could have driven to my house and have it delivered. The supermarket would have offered me the best wine to match this meal (their chance for cross/up salling). At home I would put my smartcard in the micro oven and the display (a TFT screen) would tell me how to prepare it. Etc.

Unluckily as allways MicroSoft came with an alternative Active-X. They wanted the client to be fat (as was Intel who wanted to sell more expensive chips to PC's etc). So we had the Wintel combo against Sun - Oracle -HP (later joined by IBM). The seamless world guys Sun - Oracle - HP guys failed to deliver secure back bone for this seamless concept and malware took advantage of this lagging development. The seamless world guys were at that time the big 4 in software and hardware on the server machines. So they had their own commercial interest in this concept. As allways when 4 guys see a treasure they start to fight on who gets which portion, this benefitetd wintel combo. The seamless guys were also so dumb to keep their own Unix variant, in stead of providing one clear standard.

Now we are seeing Chrome (the owner of the seach machine) picking up this idea with their browser (browser have to be safer), free web based aps (google aps) and their thin/lean kernel OS for handhelds/phones.

In stead of a blessing all way through nineties until 2009 this concept was more or less a security night mare. With the more robust OS-ses (Vista/Win7) and browsers with sandboxes this idea might be real in say 10 to 15 years. On the back bone software as a service (SAAS) is also finding its way to the B2B market. More and more applications will shift from client to the network, also in the B2C market (e.g. cloud based AV's).

So it was a mixed bag of chances/threats a blessing and a curse at the same time. reality is that most websites use JavaScript and flash seems to me the dominant streaming media/animation platform. You need it to 'enjoy' the internet. At the same time your are inviting external code (javascript/flash) to execute on your PC. But I see light at the end of the tunnel.

Regards Kees

[John Bull]

My dear dw and Kees. I am so grateful for the time you have devoted to replying on this subject.

The Historic description is very interesting to a guy who only met MS/Windows/Internet about 5 years ago by chance. Since that fatal day my sanity has deserted me and been replaced by all kinds of strange stuff from an alien world. But thanks to my background, I manage to absorb most of it, rather reflective of a walking wounded and have to rely on browsing and nice guys like you.

Wilders helps me a lot, albeit that I appear to get up the noses of a few team members - I really bear no malice in my wanderings, blundering around with the panache of a bull Rhino with gut full of Jack Daniel`s.

Just a point.
I have just done an online test for JavaScript and the answer was YES, I am OK. So it is now only that Bot-Fly Java that has inflicted me with maggots. I would like to get rid of it - it does`nt work anyway - without causing a terminal Thrombosis to my beloved PC.

John B

[dw426]

You're welcome, John. Don't worry about the attitudes some here toss your way, those are the ones who know less than they think they do. Pay attention to ones like Kees, and you'll get to know your way around the computing world pretty quickly. As I stated earlier, if Java isn't suiting you, get rid of it. Again, you'll know when/if you need it again, either a piece of software or a website will holler about it. At that time, you can decide if said software or website is worth the re-installation of Java.

[Rmus]

-{ Quote: " No Java item appears on my Add/Remove list. " }-Hello, John,

Mine is installed in Program Files and there is an item in my Add/Remove List:

220571

220572

Opera shows that it is installed:

220575

On controling Java and Javascript:

The browser offers Preference options. These pertain to both Java and Javascript. Opera permits Global enabling, meaning that Java and Javascript are enabled on all sites:

220573

But I can also keep them disabled globally (they are not checked above), and enable them on my most used sites (White Listing):

I keep Java disabled on all sites.

220574

But Javascript is enabled on some sites:

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=220576&stc=1&d=1280779351

As dw426 points out, if you White List javascript, you will be nagged to enable it when you go to other sites. So, there is a trade-off!

For Java, as he also points out, it's rarely used, and only once in recent times was I prompted to load a Java Applet. Most sites are using Flash.

regards,

-rich

[John Bull]

WOW ! That was great.

Regarding getting rid of this Java stuff - I use FF - can you please comment on this ; - http://support.mozilla.com/pt-BR/forum/1/653897 it was posted in April 2010

Where these comments are made :- No Java item is listed on my Add/Remove, so the first part is not applicable.
=========
Elafy
Firefox user

I think the best way to solve the problem is to make a thorough uninstall of all the Java crap on the system; and then reinstall properly Java 6 update 20.

Here's a little howto:

• First, close all your browsers
(Print, or copy/paste this howto into a text file)
• Go to the Add/Remove Programs in Control Panel, and uninstall all Java software you may have

To find the Add/Remove Programs area, go to Start button > Control Panel

After uninstalling all Java software, go to http://www.java.com/ and install Java 6 Update 20.
Looks like the following refers to my case.
====
You can try these extra steps if you still have the problem:
• Find and open the "Folder Options" menu on your system (in the "Tools" menu on XP, in the Control Panel on Vista/7)
• Select the "View" tab => Under "Hidden files and folders", check "Show hidden files and folders", and click "OK"
• Go to "My Computer" => "C:" => "Program Files", and delete the "Java" folder
• Still in the Program Files, open the "Mozilla Firefox" folder => "Plugins", and delete any "npdeployJava" dll
• On Windows 7, go back to "C:", open "ProgramData" => "Sun", and once again delete the "Java" folder
• Back to "C:", go to "Users" ("Documents and Settings" on XP)
• You may have several users on your computer. In each one's folder, go to "AppData" => "LocalLow" (or "Application Data" on XP). If there is a "Sun" folder, delete the "Java" folder in it.
• Finally, go back to the "Folder Options" menu => "View" tab => Under "Hidden files and folders", check "Don't show hidden files and folders", and click "OK"

And voila! You can go to Java's website (http://www.java.com/), and install Java 6 update 20.
Only the latest Java stuff should now remain on your system, meaning there shouldn't be anymore problem.
======
One reply is as under :-

Qui 22 de Apr, 2010 10:27 PST #
This answer solved the problem.
Ledg
Firefox user

[InfinityAz]

I no longer load Java on my systems. I'm amazed how seldom I even need it and am doing just fine without it (and one more possible security hole closed).

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "I no longer load Java on my systems. I'm amazed how seldom I even need it and am doing just fine without it (and one more possible security hole closed)." }-

Dw, Kees, and you feel that Java is not required that much, except in specialised cases.

If anyone here uses the OpenOffice.org suite here, and writes even the most elementary macro in Calc, they'll get a message that Java must be enabled. I've asked over at the relevant forum but couldn't get an answer I could understand. Whether it's just that Sun (and now Oracle) are using the OpenOffice.org suite to increase the "presence" of Java, I don't know!

[dw426]

-{ Quote: "Dw, Kees, and you feel that Java is not required that much, except in specialised cases.

If anyone here uses the OpenOffice.org suite here, and writes even the most elementary macro in Calc, they'll get a message that Java must be enabled. I've asked over at the relevant forum but couldn't get an answer I could understand. Whether it's just that Sun (and now Oracle) are using the OpenOffice.org suite to increase the "presence" of Java, I don't know!" }-

Java isn't required that much anymore, no. OpenOffice is one of the few, and, IMHO, ridiculous exceptions. That's akin to Adobe Reader suddenly not running unless Javascript is enabled. It's stupid and it isn't safe.

[Kees1958]

On every PC in the family, PDF, Java and Flash are put in a limited user container through icacls.exe (medium level intergity level). I keep them on, because I am to lazy and not so techn savvy as Rich.

[ABee]

-{ Quote: "Whether it's just that Sun (and now Oracle) are using the OpenOffice.org suite to increase the "presence" of Java, I don't know!" }-
Fwiw, OpenOffice is a modification of StarOffice. StarOffice is an application from the Sun-Java Software Corp.

[Daveski17]

I know you use Firefox John, have you considered using NoScript? (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/722/)

[John Bull]

-{ Quote: "I know you use Firefox John, have you considered using NoScript? (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/722/)" }-

Hello Dave,
Yep, I`ve used NoScript for a long time now and ABP.

John

[Daveski17]

OK, I just wondered as you seemed concerned about running JavaScripts.

[John Bull]

-{ Quote: "OK, I just wondered as you seemed concerned about running JavaScripts." }-

Hi Dave again,
I am OK with JavaScript, everything works fine, my Flash is working OK too. It is that infernal outdated Java that messed me about, cluttered up my PC like Locusts, gave me a plugin I never wanted and after all that NONE of it worked.

John

[Daveski17]

Oh right, I've always wondered what that does as well! LOL I use Open Office a lot so I reckon it must be important. ;)

[Tarnak]

-{ Quote: "
Wilders helps me a lot, albeit that I appear to get up the noses of a few team members - I really bear no malice in my wanderings, blundering around with the panache of a bull Rhino with gut full of Jack Daniel`s.
John B" }-

I say go for it! ...if it leads to further learning.

Also, I don't mind iconoclastic expression...;D

P.S. I just never allow my self to get caught up in pointless rejoinders.;)

[vasa1]

-{ Quote: "Oh right, I've always wondered what that does as well! LOL I use Open Office a lot so I reckon it must be important. ;)" }-

I use the Calc part of OO.o a lot. I also have a few elementary macros for convenience. It is to run these macros that OO.o claims Java is required. And the fact is that if I turn of Java in OO.o options I can't run the macros. I don't have any idea of which other components of Oo.o "require" Java.

And I'm well aware of the parentage of Java and OO.o:)

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "I use the Calc part of OO.o a lot. I also have a few elementary macros for convenience. It is to run these macros that OO.o claims Java is required. And the fact is that if I turn of Java in OO.o options I can't run the macros. I don't have any idea of which other components of Oo.o "require" Java.

And I'm well aware of the parentage of Java and OO.o:)" }-

Yeah, Mr Bull might be on to something here. I'm too scared to try to uninstall Java though! LOL :o

[dw426]

-{ Quote: "Yeah, Mr Bull might be on to something here. I'm too scared to try to uninstall Java though! LOL :o" }-

What on earth for, Dave? It's not like you can't A: Go back to Java's website and reinstall or, B: Reinstall from the original executable if you saved it and it is current. No big deal.

[Daveski17]

-{ Quote: "What on earth for, Dave? It's not like you can't A: Go back to Java's website and reinstall or, B: Reinstall from the original executable if you saved it and it is current. No big deal." }-

Well, I suppose you're right. I must be using it for something!

[John Bull]

-{ Quote: "I say go for it! ...if it leads to further learning.

Also, I don't mind iconoclastic expression...;D

P.S. I just never allow my self to get caught up in pointless rejoinders.;)" }-

Good advice and greatly appreciated. Trouble is at my age and having had a rather strict survival technique drummed into me by our inconsiderate military roughnecks, I find it hard to get an easy ride.

Thank you sincerely.
John

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "Well, I suppose you're right. I must be using it for something!" }-
Doubtful... but if you do need it, any app or website will politely let you know... :)