updated zone alarm may not be good?

[tomteeth]

Hello Everyone, I just saw another forum on the Zone alarm update and they stated that the old version of free zone alarm use to quarantine all the following .ext's and now the update only quarantines .vbs ext! Is this a fact?
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions]

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.ADE]
"Mapping"="zl0"
"Description"="Microsoft Access Project Extension"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.ADP]
"Mapping"="zl1"
"Description"="Microsoft Access Project"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.BAS]
"Mapping"="zl2"
"Description"="Visual Basic® Class Module"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.BAT]
"Mapping"="zl3"
"Description"="Batch File"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.CHM]
"Mapping"="zl4"
"Description"="Compiled HTML Help File"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.CMD]
"Mapping"="zl5"
"Description"="Windows NT® Command Script"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.COM]
"Mapping"="zl6"
"Description"="MS-DOS® Application"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.CPL]
"Mapping"="zl7"
"Description"="Control Panel Extension"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.CRT]
"Mapping"="zl8"
"Description"="Security Certificate"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.EXE]
"Mapping"="zl9"
"Description"="Application"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.HLP]
"Mapping"="zla"
"Description"="Windows® Help File"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.HTA]
"Mapping"="zlb"
"Description"="HTML Applications"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.INF]
"Mapping"="zlc"
"Description"="Setup Information File"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.INS]
"Mapping"="zld"
"Description"="Internet Communication Settings"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.ISP]
"Mapping"="zle"
"Description"="Internet Communication Settings"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.JS]
"Mapping"="z0"
"Description"="JScript® File"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.JSE]
"Mapping"="zlf"
"Description"="JScript Encoded Script File"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.LNK]
"Mapping"="zlg"
"Description"="Shortcut"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.MDB]
"Mapping"="zlh"
"Description"="Microsoft Access Application"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.MDE]
"Mapping"="zli"
"Description"="Microsoft Access MDE Database"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.MSC]
"Mapping"="zlj"
"Description"="Microsoft Common Console Document"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.MSI]
"Mapping"="zlk"
"Description"="Windows Installer Package"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.MSP]
"Mapping"="zll"
"Description"="Windows Installer Patch"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.MST]
"Mapping"="zlm"
"Description"="Visual Test Source File"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.PCD]
"Mapping"="zln"
"Description"="Photo CD Image"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.PIF]
"Mapping"="zlo"
"Description"="Shortcut to MS-DOS Program"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.REG]
"Mapping"="zlp"
"Description"="Registration Entries"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.SCR]
"Mapping"="zlq"
"Description"="Screen Saver"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.SCT]
"Mapping"="zlr"
"Description"="Windows Script Component"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.SHS]
"Mapping"="zls"
"Description"="Shell Scrap Object"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.URL]
"Mapping"="zlt"
"Description"="Internet Shortcut (Uniform Resource Locator)"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.VB]
"Mapping"="z1"
"Description"="VBScript File"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.VBE]
"Mapping"="zlu"
"Description"="VBScript Encoded Script File"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.VBS]
"Mapping"="zlv"
"Description"="VBScript Script File"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.WSC]
"Mapping"="zlw"
"Description"="Windows Script Component"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.WSF]
"Mapping"="zlx"
"Description"="Windows Script File"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Zone Labs\ZoneAlarm\MailSafe Extensions\.WSH]
"Mapping"="zly"
"Description"="Windows Scripting Host Settings File" "

Checked and what I found. About 37 of them then, only ONE now with the FREE version.

[Prince_Serendip]

Yes, it's a fact! The people at ZoneLabs decided that ZAF with a full MailSafe feature was too rich for a free app so they deleted all but quarantine on VBS scripts. Their motvation IMO for doing so is obvious--it's simple greed! I've tried out the new version and I'm so far finding I don't like it much. I don't have time right now to go into details but check out this page on it at DSLReports. (Originally provided by FanJ. Fixed by FanJ. Thanks FanJ!)

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,3971332~root=security,1~mode=flat

Hope this helps you! :)


EDIT: I fixed the url. Jan.

[tomteeth]

Thank You for that Web Site, Also i uninstalled the new update because of locking my computer up at shutdown and i put back the old version 2.6 But it did not give me back what i had before downloading the new version. In other words, if anyone has the old Free version. you'd better keep it just the way it is, or you will lose it, Unless you want to buy pro-version! I cannot believe Zone Alarm would do this, but i guess money talks.

[snowman]

Tommy and Prince

say guys..I was wondering...did zonelabs issue a public advisory that these changes would occur when updating to the new version ???

Tommy.....I have no idea of how experienced a user you are...yet..you seem comfortable going into the registry....isn't it possible to un-install za..reboot...clean out all traces of za..reboot...an re-install the old version??
Don't even consider this if you are not experienced enough.....no offense intended....just a pre-cautionary comment

snowman

[Prince_Serendip]

Hi tomteeth and snowman! I have a friend who is not superstuff on a computer, but he has a painstaking technique for getting rid of "hidden" files from old programs. He checks the date and time of their install then goes and looks for where they are buried. He has told me that they are never named so you can connect them to their source. I think I'll ask him if there are any particular folders to check first. When he finds them he notes where they were/are before removing them, keeping a backup just in case he takes the wrong one. He says a lot of programs do this and those files which are buried so deep are similar to spyware.

For the Registry. Take out the new version, then run SpybotS&D because it will list all of the items in the registry which have broken or no paths. Delete these items. Then try installing the old version. What do you think snowman?

[tomteeth]

Prince, would be glad to find that out, please let me know? Snowman, Here is the thing that i know so far I uninstalled the new version and used the old .exe on my desktop to reinstall the 2.6 But come to find out that Zone Alarm will not let you reinstall the exact old version without problems for one thing i keep getting the Permission screens for each individual program and even if I put a check mark in the box and say Yes, it still repeats each time i go on the pc. Also Snowman, I heard of NO Public advisory, Zone alarm simply sent me a message screen stating that there is an update and go here for it, thats all!

[Jamming]

Actually they never announced that it should scan all those files, it was a bug in the original release of mailsafe. So you can use the older version with the bug that gave you free access to a paid for option or go use the new versions with its tightened up security, Its your choice. Sorry your not getting the full product for free, but hey they gotta make a living. Just be thankful they didn't update the old version, but they didn't notice it until several months after and let if go then. So your complaining about their generousity in the first place, but like I said some people gotta eat and have a place to live. ;)

Jamming
Team Z Member

[FanJ]

Hi Jamming, Welcome !!!

-{ Quote: "it was a bug in the original release of mailsafe" }-

I myself wouldn't call this a bug, it was simply a mistake by ZoneLabs.....
That said, I would like to mention that I fully understand that the ZoneLabs-people also need to eat, and that I admire and thank all you Team Z members doing such a great job in helping people with questions about ZA.

[snowman]

Tommy

right now perhaps the question you really should be asking yourself....is do you even want to waste your time on zone alarm? sure there are ways to resolve the problems you are having.....but consider the facts of what has happen.....imo every user of zone alarm both free and paid for.....needs to take stock of this situation.......
an Tom...its your decision entirely......an if you decide to continue using zone alarm.......old version.......then don't go half stepping...reformat if possible.....an do it right.....I wont suggest any course of action for you to consider....this has to be your decision.

snowman

[tomteeth]

Free or Paid for, you have to be out of your mind not to ask question when the security of your pc is changed in any way, after all these are expensive machines and there are alot of jerks out there who have nothing better to do than try to impress people that they can hack into someones pc. Snowman: You are right, i have decisions to make, i have to think about my options here.

[snowman]

Tommy

good for you!! never be a floormat to be walked on.

snowman

[snowman]

Jamming

upon first reading your post about all I could do was just sit in amasement shaking my head...

of course you could be anybody..an not at all associated with zone alarm...therefore I wont give your post any credit whatsoever. you are not a part of the equation. this is a matter between zone alarm and users of zone alarm. .....even should you be an actual member of Team Z you still do not have the capacity of a spokesperson for zone alarm. Thats reserved for the ceo..board of directors or their appointed spokesperson....
its a very pleasent night an my time wont be wasted frivolously on this thread. instead I'll wish you well an bid you farewell.

snowman

[dnekm]

I hope this will help those trying to revert back to an older version...

I had the same problems, after upgrading to the new version, then un-installing and re-installing an older version... (2.6.632)

What I had to do, to get the mail safe working properly was to uninstall completely 2.6.632, then run a few registry cleaners, deleting every Zone Alarm key it picked up. I used jv16pt to manually delete any Zone Alarm keys and all of the mail safe keys (ZAMailSafe registered file types), then I used Easy Cleaner and finally MS reg clean. Then, open regedit, and look under "CURRENT USER", LOCAL MACHINE" and "USERS" for the software, Zone Alarm keys.

Then, do a search for "zone" using regedit and it found one extra key.... (be patient with this, you will find lots of things this way that do not apply to Zone Alarm....) (This will also find the keys for the shared DLL's)

Also, go to the Windows/System directory and set the view to "by date" and look at the properties of the recent files and delete the various new leftovers from the version 3 install, as well as the ZoneLabs sub folder in the System directory....

Re-boot....

I re-installed an older version I had on a backup drive - 2.6.88.2.2, and it worked fine.

I then installed, without deleting 2.6.88.2.2 (simply shutting everything down and having it not load at startup - but you could probably just do a fresh install of 2.6.632) and it still works...

I've sent myself .bat, .com, and .exe extensions and zone alarm flags them like it used to...

Basically, when you uninstall Zone Alarm it leaves behind things such as the ZoneLabs sub-folder in the System directory, as well as leaves behind a few things in the System directory itself. If you are patient enough you can get it working again....

[Prince_Serendip]

:) Thank you dnekm! Now that post is in the spirit and purpose of this board. Welcome to Wilders! I'm with snowman as he is my friend. I am seriously considering to chuck the whole ZA thing and get a different firewall, like others have advised that I do in the past. I will probably start using Outpost again. I had it before, a long time ago, but I didn't know how to use it. I do now, thanks to the patient teachings of the good people at this board! (I'm also looking into some others. See snowman's topic in this forum.) dnekm's post will help me eradicate ZAF from my system. Thanks again for your help!

[tomteeth]

dnekm: Yes, Thank You for your Post, very informative and I will try i out. Prince: I was just told about Outpost and it looks good, but i have one Question, Do you know if it is for XP this last statement they make is Confusing!>>> Note: We do not guarantee that Outpost Firewall will run on Microsoft ICS (Internet Connection Sharing) gateway (computer connecting two networks and transmitting packages from one network to another) running Windows2000 Service Pack 2 or Windows XP.
Note the XP! You had it before, as you said, are you using XP? Did it work ok?

[Prince_Serendip]

Sorry, I have Win98se, not XP. (Wish I'd had it now though!) Outpost is not the only great firewall. Check around in this forum. I mentioned Outpost because it was my first firewall. I also hear their forums are pretty good too, which means you can get good help when you need it. Try asking some of the mods here. They know good firewalls. Sqeaky wheels do get the oil! Good Luck! :)

[tomteeth]

Prince_Serendip
Ok, I will, Thanks everyone for your help

[snowy]

Tommy

sygate free version is a nice firewall also....an you can peak at KERIO also. an don't those rules setting bother you......sygate has a learning mode.....an you can learn as you go........I don't know if Kerio does.....so there..you have three choices.......PARTY!!!

snowman

[tomteeth]

Snowy: Thanks, i will look into all of them, Regards Tom

[Paul Wilders]

Hi Tom,

All the luck - and feel free to ask questions. One remark though: in case you are not familiar with rulesets and building a ruleset, IMHO you'd be better of with an application-based FW first. Having a rule-based FW installed without a proper ruleset is in fact worse than having no FW at all.

Take care!

regards.

paul

[snowman]

Tommy

my apology....I completely forgot to mention the point Paul posted.......kicked myself twice for that.....thank goodness Paul was here to advised you on this...

[tomteeth]

Paul. Thank You very much, I never thought of taking that into consideration, but i will now, Thanks again, Tom PS Snowman, Don't forget to take your shoes off, before kicking yourself LOL!

[snowman]

SHOES???? whats a shoe ?? all I ever get is some smelly old hat....

[the Tester]

I am using Sygate personal firewall 5.0.I was using ZA before that.I do like Sygate.I have'nt had any probs with using it on my xp home edition system.

[Bethrezen]

Hi all

i to am unimpressed with the new version of za so i redownloaded and reinstalled 2.6 how ever now that im starting to get a lil more confordent i think it might be time to get a better more secure firewall

prefairably one that can do everythin that za can do and is noobie friendley but is also a rule based firewall to the rule bassed bit to give me more controle and the app bit so that i can just do a quick out the box setup till i learn how to use the rule based system properley as i have never used a rule based fire wall befor

anyone requemend a good free fire wall that would meet my needs ??

i have heard that out post is a good 2 in one fire wall ?

[root]

If you are not networked, Outpost free is an excellent choice. ;D

[Bethrezen]

hi root

no im not runing a net work just my and my home pc

been to the out post home page and sounds good if its as easy to use and secure as they say then i should be ok so i think im goin to give it a go and see how i get on

if i get stuck ill be back

thanks for ya answer

[Paul Wilders]

Hi Bethrezen,

-{ Quote: "..if i get stuck ill be back" }-

You'd better; root is the one and only expert on OutPost - except for Mikhail possibly ;).

regards.

paul

[MickeyTheMan]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Forum Admin link=board=23;threadid=2720;start=15#18644 date=1028239835]
Hi Tom,

All the luck - and feel free to ask questions. One remark though: in case you are not familiar with rulesets and building a ruleset, IMHO you'd be better of with an application-based FW first. Having a rule-based FW installed without a proper ruleset is in fact worse than having no FW at all.

Take care!

regards.

paul
" }-
Paul, i'm quite sure you expected me to jump in here at this time. ;)
LNS with it's enhanced ruleset could very well be run without any rule adjustment and provide as good if not better protection than any other firewall on the market at the present time.
And we both know it successfully passes all the tests currently known.

[Paul Wilders]

Mickey,

-{ Quote: "Paul, i'm quite sure you expected me to jump in here at this time." }-

At last ;D - What took you this long? ;)

regards.

paul

[Tuulilapsi]

... I don't quite see the problem here, guys. Zone Alarm (Free) is a software firewall, and that's all it is. It's not supposed to (as in this is not its primary function) protect your email from viruses or even quarantine suspicious-looking files. It's not supposed to be a catch-all security suite. Nope, just a simple, damned good (at least in my experience), working software firewall for free.

Seriously, I cannot understand why one would even need the email protection ZA 2.6 offered. I mean, what does it do, ultimately? Nothing. When you get an attachment, the program does nothing more than quarantine the file - and then ask you what to do to it. It's not like ZA scans your attachments for viruses and trojans. The responsibility is still yours, just as it would be if you had no email protection from ZA. I've long since turned ZA's email protection off.

As for what really isn't good in the new ZA, that's the new interface. The old one was definitely better. On the other hand, the new logs are far more clear than the old ones. And it seems the new version has a better background noise filtering to keep the logs more tidy, now. I'm not sure, though.

I upgraded - and I don't regret it at all. When someone points out a security fault in the new version that the old did not have (firewall-wise, not in the email protection), then I'll start regretting.

[Paul Wilders]

Hi Tuulilapsi,

If your a happy camper using ZA, just stick to it ;).

As for:

-{ Quote: "When someone points out a security fault in the new version that the old did not have (firewall-wise, not in the email protection), then I'll start regretting." }-

It's a matter of choice and principle. Application based FWs - like ZA Free - will not allow any kind of fine tuning. Say fe you allow IExplorer (or any other browser for that matter) to access the net as an application, you will not be able to accept or deny traffic "coming with it". An example: many avatars in use on various boards are hosted on third party servers. Rule base FWs will (if configured that way) pop up each time, asking you if you allow traffic to/from these third party servers. ZA Free, being a purely application based firewall, will never pop up an alert in any way.

It's in essence a quite "harmless" example - but I do hope you'll get the picture.

regards.

paul

[tomteeth]

MickeyThe Man: LNS with it's enhanced ruleset could very well be run without any rule adjustment! I am not familiar with this, can you supply a web site for me, Thank You Tom

[Paul Wilders]

Tom,

This very nice site from Andreas Wagner is worthwhile visiting as well:

www.rz.uni-frankfurt.de/~wagner/lns-rules.html (http://www.rz.uni-frankfurt.de/~wagner/lns-rules.html)

regards.

paul

[snowman]

Tommy

I have followed the developement of Look n Stop for several years.........its a firewall I have used.......an have found it to be a great product
its best that Mickey reply to any questions you may have.....or Spy1.......
Tommy there are two versions of Look n Stop......the Pro verson and the "Lite" version....the "lite" version is freeware.

[spy1]

tomteeth - http://www.soft4ever.com/LooknStop/En/index2.htm .

[tomteeth]

I am looking over the sites now, probably spend some time on them between now and tomorrow, Maybe, will have a few question later! very interesting and I want to Thank You Guys for supplying them, Tom

[spy1]

You're quite welcome. Pete

[MickeyTheMan]

-{ Quote: " quoting: tomteeth link=board=23;threadid=2720;start=30#18716 date=1028284928]
MickeyThe Man: LNS with it's enhanced ruleset could very well be run without any rule adjustment! I am not familiar with this, can you supply a web site for me, Thank You Tom
" }-
Maybe this needs clarification.
When you use an application firewall, say ZA, rules are included in the firewall. You just don't see them and have litttle control over how they operate. Doesn't mean the firewall is no good, it's simply that you can't adjust them when and if you want.
By using a ruleset firewall like say LNS, and using the Enhanced Ruleset that comes with it, you could very well operate it as if you had an application firewall and make no changes to the rules already included. The main difference is that you can see every rule that applies, and when you are ready to start modifiying them, you can if you want to. You don't have to, but can if you want. It also allows you to better understand how a firewall works when you can actually see what rules applies when something is blocked for example.

[tomteeth]

Mickey the man: Thanks You for the explanation, i am starting to learn this, I have been on LNS web site for the last 2 hours, really interesting! I love to learn things, especially when they can protect my pc. I have had a couple of bad virus's etc. with my old Computers and it was a mess. Does LNS have its own forum for just this feature? I saw Becky's! Or are they both connected?

[MickeyTheMan]

Becky is another board just like this one or any others.
LNS does have a support forum at Becky where Frédéric (the author) visits regularly. Many users are quick to jump in when help is needed by one.
AFAIK many users are members of both boards, and few like me practically everywhere ! :D
Doesn't mean i'm necessarily liked though, as i play favourite to no one or no company. ;)
Cross my path and MickeyTheMan becomes MickeyTheBear ! :D

[Paul Wilders]

-{ Quote: "Cross my path and MickeyTheMan becomes MickeyTheBear" }-

Hey Mickey, when the heck did you become a Panda AV fan? ;D

regards,

paul

[tomteeth]

MickeyTheMan
Ok, Thanks for the reply

[snowy]

A big warm fluffy teddy bear

snowman

[snowy]

my aopolgy for the "Bear" remark...if I were login I would edit it........an not blow anyones cover....

snowman

[MickeyTheMan]

-{ Quote: " quoting: snowy link=board=23;threadid=2720;start=30#18791 date=1028330209]


A big warm fluffy teddy bear

snowman
" }-
Yeah, growls a lot....but does no harm ! :D

[snowy]

as a avid outdoors person....experience has taught me that when a bear groals.....its time for a person to take the fetal position....an make peace with his higher power

snowman

ot..sorry

[jnibori]

Question:

I have been reading the reviews about the new freeware version of ZA, which I installed. I have also read that if I want the older version back, with all of the benefits, I will have to fuss around in the registry, which I would rather not do.

What if I completely uninstalled the new version of ZA using Add/Remove, deleting the program file folder, and anything else I can find. And, what if I use system restore to back up to a point before I installed the newer version, and installed the older version. Would I be back to the point where I get all of the benefits I once had ?? RE MailSafe option?

[tomteeth]

jnibori
Please, don't bother, it will do No Good, its gone for good, once you loose it!

[jnibori]

You know - the stupid thing is that I had the new version installed about 3 minutes after learning it was out there. Instead of downloading it, and taking the time ( at least an effort) to research it a bit, I blindly installed the older, for the "better."

I have read over and over that newer does not equal better. Once again another lesson learned from my own mistakes. Hopefully, there will be scads of information about how much better the newer version is ( sure jnibori).

I am sure the new version is good too. ZA has always been at the top. And why am I complaining about a free, highly secure, firewall anyway ?

Thanks for the replies.

[tomteeth]

Your right, research before downloading, I usually always do that with Microsoft updates, but i did not do it with ZA! Sometimes Updates (in certain cases) are not necessary!