Triple Boot & Paragon don't Mix

[dakota42784]

My HDD consists of 3 Partitions:

Vista x64 bit
Windows 7 Ultimate x64 bit
Ubuntu 9.04 (Linux)

When I try to do a Complete Backup of the WHOLE DRIVE, Believe me, I select Everything when I backup!!!
I Backup to a separate USB HDD up on a shelf.

The Backup works .........But, When I do a Restore from that Backup,The Restore works Good until it finishes,and I have to re-boot, then It Hangs at the Linux (boot) Grub Menu, (Error # 17). Then I can't get into Windows or Linux!!!!!!
What am I doing wrong???
If I can't restore..........What good is this program??


I am Using Paragon Partition Manager™ 10.0 build 7893 (20.03.09 ) Server.

[Paragon_Tommy]

Hello dakota42784,

What I would first check is in your BIOS. If the restore is to new hardware that's been replacements, make sure in BIOS that the modes are set to AUTO, not LBA, Normal, or Large.

Second, I would boot into the recovery CD and take a look at your restored disk, particularly the layout of the partitions if they are all there ie, swap partition for linux. And if needed to, restore individual partitions from your complex archive. Each separate partitions have its own restore file starting with .000

When Paragon restores an OS, it automatically rewrites your MBR. In this case with multiple OSes, as a final step, restore your MBR after all the partitions and data has been restored, simply because we want to rule out that the MBR was not rebuilt from scratch.

In the recovery disk, you can also install the boot manager that can pick up your OSes.

If for whatever reason grub is no longer able to boot Windows or Ubuntu, I would go back and restore only Ubuntu first, run its repair CD, and make sure Ubuntu runs as a solo operating system. Then go back, restore Windows 1 at a time, and have Grub add the boot entry.

-Tommy

[dakota42784]

-{ Quote: "Hello dakota42784,

What I would first check is in your BIOS. If the restore is to new hardware that's been replacements, make sure in BIOS that the modes are set to AUTO, not LBA, Normal, or Large.

Second, I would boot into the recovery CD and take a look at your restored disk, particularly the layout of the partitions if they are all there ie, swap partition for linux. And if needed to, restore individual partitions from your complex archive. Each separate partitions have its own restore file starting with .000

When Paragon restores an OS, it automatically rewrites your MBR. In this case with multiple OSes, as a final step, restore your MBR after all the partitions and data has been restored, simply because we want to rule out that the MBR was not rebuilt from scratch.

In the recovery disk, you can also install the boot manager that can pick up your OSes.

If for whatever reason grub is no longer able to boot Windows or Ubuntu, I would go back and restore only Ubuntu first, run its repair CD, and make sure Ubuntu runs as a solo operating system. Then go back, restore Windows 1 at a time, and have Grub add the boot entry.

-Tommy" }-
Thank You for your Help but it is not the Bios.
I could not wait & Downloaded Acronis True Image & It worked 1st time with no problems. Tried Restore on Acronis & Worked Perfect.
;D 8)

[Howard Kaikow]

IMHO, I expect that the problem is HOW you installed Ubuntu.

I have a system with ubie 9.04, as well as several win 2000.
And, I use the Win 2000 NTLDR to boot ubie.

However, this is a bit tricky. See http://www.standards.com/index.html?WindowsUbuntu.

The process is slightly different for Vista and later systems.

There may be ways to achive this using the GRUB loader instead of the Windows loader, but why ask for trouble?

Another source is Herman's Illustrated Dual Boot Site (http://members.iinet.net/~herman546/index.html).

After I install Win 7 on my Vista system, I'll face these same issues.
Something to look forward to, n'est-ce pas?

[Howard Kaikow]

-{ Quote: "
When Paragon restores an OS, it automatically rewrites your MBR. In this case with multiple OSes, as a final step, restore your MBR after all the partitions and data has been restored, simply because we want to rule out that the MBR was not rebuilt from scratch." }-

Ugh!

I never allow an MBR to be overwritten by a backup program.
Does Paragon have an option to disable the overwriting of the MBR?

-{ Quote: "If for whatever reason grub is no longer able to boot Windows or Ubuntu, I would go back and restore only Ubuntu first, run its repair CD, and make sure Ubuntu runs as a solo operating system. Then go back, restore Windows 1 at a time, and have Grub add the boot entry.
" }-
Ugh! Ugh!
See my other posting in this thread.

Install Windows first, and use the Windows loader.

I've been thru this mess twice, first with ubie 7.04 , then with 9.04.

[dakota42784]

-{ Quote: "IMHO, I expect that the problem is HOW you installed Ubuntu.

I have a system with ubie 9.04, as well as several win 2000.
And, I use the Win 2000 NTLDR to boot ubie.

However, this is a bit tricky. See http://www.standards.com/index.html?WindowsUbuntu.

The process is slightly different for Vista and later systems.

There may be ways to achive this using the GRUB loader instead of the Windows loader, but why ask for trouble?

Another source is Herman's Illustrated Dual Boot Site (http://members.iinet.net/~herman546/index.html).

After I install Win 7 on my Vista system, I'll face these same issues.
Something to look forward to, n'est-ce pas?" }-

Paragon doe's something to MBR, which makes it not Boot......Period!!!!

Acronis doesn't do this
R-Drive Image doesn't do this
I have tried doing a Backup & a Restore with both programs & they both Work.
Even with Triple-Boot............They both Restore Completely.
Paragon hangs at the Linux Grub Menu. As Paragon_Tommy said, and I quote "When Paragon restores an OS, it automatically rewrites your MBR."
note:
In Acronis & R-Drive Image, I did Not have to change any settings in either program to do a restore!!!
This is definately a weakness in Paragon & I hope they get it fixed. No matter how good The Paragon programs are in other aspects...........If you cannot restore after doing a Backup on a multi-boot system, that is a tremendous weakness that must be addressed or they are going to keep losing business to other companys.

[Howard Kaikow]

-{ Quote: "Paragon doe's something to MBR, which makes it not Boot......Period!!!!

Acronis doesn't do this
R-Drive Image doesn't do this
I have tried doing a Backup & a Restore with both programs & they both Work.
Even with Triple-Boot............They both Restore Completely.
Paragon hangs at the Linux Grub Menu. As Paragon_Tommy said, and I quote "When Paragon restores an OS, it automatically rewrites your MBR."
note:
In Acronis & R-Drive Image, I did Not have to change any settings in either program to do a restore!!!
This is definately a weakness in Paragon & I hope they get it fixed. No matter how good The Paragon programs are in other aspects...........If you cannot restore after doing a Backup on a multi-boot system, that is a tremendous weakness that must be addressed or they are going to keep losing business to other companys.
" }-

It all goes back to whether:

1. Paragon has an option to not change the MBR, if not, they darn well better get such an option in version 10.

2. Restoring and booting are separate issues. Paragaon likely restores the partitions correctly, but is likely not handling the GRUB boot correctly. If you look at the articles to which I posted pointers, one has to perform unnatual acts to achieve a proper Windows/Linux boot. I too used to get error 17, until I learned how t ouse GRUB in these circumstances.

If you have the boot stuff set up correctly, i.e., do NOT write the GRUB stuff in an MBR, then either Paragon will handle that correctly, or, better yet,
do NOT boot using Paragon, rather use the normal boot after restoring the partitions.

With True Image, I restore the partitions, remove the boot media, and start as usual. Paragon should be able to do the same.

All True Image and, I hope, Paragon can do is initiate the built-in Windows boot loader, If set up properly, you would then be able to boot to any OS, however, unless you are totally bypassing the Windows loader, one has to do certain tumblesauts to have a Windows/Linux dual boot. By trying to boot from within Paragonm you are likely running into a GRUB issue, not a Paragon issue.

I am guessing that the error you are seeing has something to do with the way you have ubuntu set up to use GRUB.

[dakota42784]

-{ Quote: "It all goes back to whether:

1. Paragon has an option to not change the MBR, if not, they darn well better get such an option in version 10.

2. Restoring and booting are separate issues. Paragaon likely restores the partitions correctly, but is likely not handling the GRUB boot correctly. If you look at the articles to which I posted pointers, one has to perform unnatual acts to achieve a proper Windows/Linux boot. I too used to get error 17, until I learned how t ouse GRUB in these circumstances.

If you have the boot stuff set up correctly, i.e., do NOT write the GRUB stuff in an MBR, then either Paragon will handle that correctly, or, better yet,
do NOT boot using Paragon, rather use the normal boot after restoring the partitions.

With True Image, I restore the partitions, remove the boot media, and start as usual. Paragon should be able to do the same.

All True Image and, I hope, Paragon can do is initiate the built-in Windows boot loader, If set up properly, you would then be able to boot to any OS, however, unless you are totally bypassing the Windows loader, one has to do certain tumblesauts to have a Windows/Linux dual boot. By trying to boot from within Paragonm you are likely running into a GRUB issue, not a Paragon issue.

I am guessing that the error you are seeing has something to do with the way you have ubuntu set up to use GRUB." }-

Howard, Thanks for responding.
I Believe as you do, that Paragon probably has the partitions set up correctly & just messes with the grub on boot.
I also do as you do & on completion of a restore, I remove the acronis boot disk & restart the computer & let it boot up on it's own. I have Windows 7 set as default boot.
As far as how I have Ubuntu set up, it is as follows:

I chose all standard settings.
On the Grub setup, it came up & said........Install side by side with windows partitions & I said.......Yes.
So none of my settings in Ubuntu were special.

We shouldn't have to change settings to make it boot correctly.
Like I said, Acronis & R-Drive Image restore correctly without changing things.
I do hope they read this post & Rectify that Grub Problem.
When I first had Problem with Paragon........I was stuck at Grub Menu, (Error # 17) & Couldn't boot.
I simply put my R-Drive Image (rescue cd) in & Rebooted & restored my R-Drive Image Backup.
Took about 30-35 minutes & I was back in business.

[SIW2]

I hope what Tommy means is this:

In the "What to back up " window,

If you tick the box next to MBR as well as the box next to the partition (s) - then the MBR is included in the archive with the partition(s) and restored with it.

If you only tick the box next to the partition(s) - then only the partition(s) are backed up in that archive.

You can backup the mbr separately by ticking only the box next to the MBR - and make a separate archive backup of that.

Then you can choose to restore either or both.

BTW - isn't there a more recent build of PM10 than 7893?

[dakota42784]

-{ Quote: "My HDD consists of 3 Partitions:

Vista x64 bit
Windows 7 Ultimate x64 bit
Ubuntu 9.04 (Linux)

When I try to do a Complete Backup of the WHOLE DRIVE, Believe me, I select Everything when I backup!!!
I Backup to a separate USB HDD up on a shelf.

The Backup works .........But, When I do a Restore from that Backup,The Restore works Good until it finishes,and I have to re-boot, then It Hangs at the Linux (boot) Grub Menu, (Error # 17). Then I can't get into Windows or Linux!!!!!!
What am I doing wrong???
If I can't restore..........What good is this program??


I am Using Paragon Partition Manager™ 10.0 build 7893 (20.03.09 ) Server." }-


As you can see from my attachment above, MBR box is and was checked

[SIW2]

You could see if leaving the existing mbr would do the trick - i.e. do not check that box when backing up.

Restoring that archive will ( I think - not sure what Tommy meant) only restore the rest of the drive and leave the mbr as it was.

See if that works.

You could also backup the mbr separately just in case you do want to restore it after restoring the rest of the drive.

I am not sure what he meant by this:

-{ Quote: "When Paragon restores an OS, it automatically rewrites your MBR" }-

[Howard Kaikow]

-{ Quote: "Howard, Thanks for responding.
I Believe as you do, that Paragon probably has the partitions set up correctly & just messes with the grub on boot.
I also do as you do & on completion of a restore, I remove the acronis boot disk & restart the computer & let it boot up on it's own. I have Windows 7 set as default boot.
As far as how I have Ubuntu set up, it is as follows:

I chose all standard settings.
On the Grub setup, it came up & said........Install side by side with windows partitions & I said.......Yes.
So none of my settings in Ubuntu were special.

We shouldn't have to change settings to make it boot correctly.
Like I said, Acronis & R-Drive Image restore correctly without changing things.
I do hope they read this post & Rectify that Grub Problem.
When I first had Problem with Paragon........I was stuck at Grub Menu, (Error # 17) & Couldn't boot.
I simply put my R-Drive Image (rescue cd) in & Rebooted & restored my R-Drive Image Backup.
Took about 30-35 minutes & I was back in business." }-

Back in 2007, when I installed ubuntu 7.04, it was a painful process.
It is supposed to be possible to use GRUB as the loader, instead of Windows, but why take a chance, I use the windows loader as one never knows what Windows update will do.

In order to achieve this, one needs to follow the instructions I posted.

When I installed ubie 9.04, I discovered that I had several drives with orphan/errant grub loaders as result of my failed attempts of 2 years ago.

I reset the MBR of every drive, and then used the instructions I posted.
In effect, one is NOT putting GRUB in any MBR, so the secret trick is to fool GRUB using the windows loader.

The process is slightly different for post Windows XP.

IMNSHO, Paragon should not be booting, it should just eject the media and let the PC boot as usual.

[SIW2]

I think this is similar to what Howard was suggesting:

http://neosmart.net/wiki/display/EBCD/Ubuntu

[Howard Kaikow]

-{ Quote: "I think this is similar to what Howard was suggesting:

http://neosmart.net/wiki/display/EBCD/Ubuntu" }-

The key is to not allow linux to write to an MBR.

There are subtle differences in the rest of th steps, depending on whether everything is pre-Vista, or post-XP, or a mixture of the two.

My next step is to repartition my Vista system so I can install Win 7, only then will I worry about ubie 10.4.

[dakota42784]

-{ Quote: "The key is to not allow linux to write to an MBR.

There are subtle differences in the rest of th steps, depending on whether everything is pre-Vista, or post-XP, or a mixture of the two.

My next step is to repartition my Vista system so I can install Win 7, only then will I worry about ubie 10.4." }-

@ SIW2 & Howard

Thank You very much for your feedback, especially about the .....................The key is to not allow linux to write to an MBR.

I want to try that part. Never did it that way before.
I want to install Linux (Ubuntu) in a way so that windows, gives me a choice on what to boot instead of Linux.
I am going to print that page & try that.
Thanks ;D ::) :)

[SIW2]

You're welcome - keep us posted how it goes.