Too much reformatting

[ohblu]

Many, many years ago it used to be that people only reformatted their computers as a last resort. People would spend an hour or two (or more) trying to fix the problem and prevent it from recurring. Now, people have one minor little problem and they reformat. It's like it's become trendy. I even see computer techs reformatting computers at the drop of a hat. Is reformatting like this really necessary? I have a computer book that was written by an expert and he basically says reformatting should be a last resort. So why do so many people reformat over the tiniest little problems? Like one guy reformatted because he got one little piece of spyware on his computer. I think that was going way overboard.

Opinions?

[YeOldeStonecat]

I agree with you. I see so much advice on tech forums to those people who get some malware infestation like a vundu variant...telling these poor people to "backup data and format".

Back in the early Win9X days, I used to install and uninstall so many games, mess with drivers, blah blah..yeah two or maybe three times a year I'd rebuild.

But once Win2K came out...and I don't install/uninstall so much, even then....with the plethora of good cleaning tools out there, and keeping my machine quite clean...I only format/reinstall when I'm replacing/upgrading my PC with all new motherboard/CPU/etc.

Regarding malware....we get a huge amount of infested PCs into our shop, most of it can be cleaned quite well with the good cleaning/removal tools these days such as MalwareBytes, ComboFix, SuperAntispyware, AntiVir, Spybot, MRT, MSE, etc. Especially a service shop that has a bench PC where you can slave the customers drive to and perform good deep scans outside of the OS. It's a very small percentage that we run across where we throw in the towel and rebuild.

[Seer]

-{ Quote: "Is reformatting like this really necessary? I have a computer book that was written by an expert and he basically says reformatting should be a last resort. So why do so many people reformat over the tiniest little problems? Like one guy reformatted because he got one little piece of spyware on his computer. I think that was going way overboard." }-

Interesting questions you raise up here. I see possible 2 reasons -

Formatting is the easiest solution. In case of Windows OSes, the install process has always been more or less idiot-friendly. All you have to do is type in you username/password and click on "next" a few times and you're up and going in half an hour or so. Getting to the bottom of problem requires some brainpower and often is the case where users do not want to use their brains to actually learn something in the process. They simply want things to work. That is your typical Windows user. They would rather spend 3 hours on clicking "next" (they do have to reinstall some apps too) then on delving into unknown to fix the problem.

There is also the matter of keeping things "clean" and "under total control". This is a psyhological compulsive reaction that usually derives from the lack of knowledge (I will not go into other, more serious, reasons for compulsive behavior). It applies to the case with the simple spyware you mention. Even if the problem can easily be resolved, the word "infection" rings heavily in the ears of our Windows user and the only way he'll get rid of that ring is to start anew, be it from a trusted image or by the means of reformat.

I daresay that I noticed how both cases apply to many of our fellow members here...

[bgoodman4]

Its also an easy way for phone or e-mail tech support to deal with an issue. Rather than try to find a viable solution,,,,which takes work and knowledge,,,,the tech says to reformat and reinstall.

Thats the easy and time effective way to work for the tech,,,,,but not for the customer.

[YeOldeStonecat]

-{ Quote: "
Formatting is the easiest solution. In case of Windows OSes, the install process has always been more or less idiot-friendly. All you have to do is type in you username/password and click on "next" a few times and you're up and going in half an hour or so. Getting to the bottom of problem requires some brainpower and often is the case where users do not want to use their brains to actually learn something in the process. They simply want things to work. That is your typical Windows user. They would rather spend 3 hours on clicking "next" (they do have to reinstall some apps too) then on delving into unknown to fix the problem." }-

IMO it's not the easiest solution.
*Existing data. Asking the person what they need backed up from the computer...they may remember to mention 1 or 2 or 3 things....they usually forget the other dozen or things they need until POOF!!! it's gone and too late.

*Can't find reinstallation media for 1/2 of the programs they want back

*Some cloner built PC with motherboard of the month parts that takes hours...no...days..to go on driver hunts for on el cheapo parts.

*Once computer is rebuilt...restore data....and now the often more time consuming part...return it to their house and find out they have all these odd AIW/MFP printers/scanners/cameras/PDAs that take a horrendously long time to install drivers for.

IMO the removal tools available today do such a fantastic job....how could anyone say clicking on them 4 times is more difficult than reinstalling the OS and software and blah blah on their PC?
Install, update, scan, remove. //easy? Just follow the bouncing ball, programs like malwarebytes hold your hand through the entire process.

When our customers PCs come in..the few that don't seem to be able to be repaired and need a complete rebuild...I dread it when that happens because now I know I'm going to spend a lot more time on the project.

[midway40]

I have to agree with the Olde Cat there, I only format and reinstall only when I have to for the same reasons stated. I once cleaned a WinMe computer that had over 900 instances of infection (it took 15 minutes to boot to the desktop, lol). Ordinarily with such a hugely infected computer I would have probably reformatted and reinstalled but the user could not find her installation disks. It took me two days on and off to clean it. In that case it would have been better to R & R because it would have taken less time.

Another time someone bought a laptop to work that had a corrupted registry which caused it not to boot up even in Safe Mode. My sysadmin told me to reformat and reinstall but I instead repaired the registry as per MS instructions (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307545). It was a little tedious with all the typing but I got the computer fixed within the hour. This was a lot easier than having to reinstall the OS, drivers, apps, and data though.

Back in the Win9x days on my computer I used to reformat and reinstall every six months or whenever it needed it. In XP I did it once a year. Nowadays in Vista I have a backup image stored in my server if something goes awry.

[ohblu]

-{ Quote: "I have to agree with the Olde Cat there, I only format and reinstall only when I have to for the same reasons stated. I once cleaned a WinMe computer that had over 900 instances of infection (it took 15 minutes to boot to the desktop, lol). " }-


I'm getting a little off-topic here but how did you determine there were 900 instances of infection? I mean, did you use scan in safe mode or use an online scanner? What was your method of detection?

I once had a relative's computer that took about 15-20 minutes to boot to the desktop and my first instinct was to scan for malware. I scanned in safe mode and with an online scanner as well as with the scanners that were already installed on the computer. But I only found two fairly harmless spyware. They certainly weren't anything that would cause a computer to run that slow. A repair tech claims the computer was infested with spyware. I have serious doubts about that. But I'd really like to learn more about this.

[Bill_Bright]

-{ Quote: "Many, many years ago it used to be that people only reformatted their computers as a last resort. People would spend an hour or two (or more) trying to fix the problem and prevent it from recurring. Now, people have one minor little problem and they reformat. " }-

I disagree completely. Years ago - and I go back to DOS days, reformatting was a common occurrence. Why? Because it was easy. All your programs and drivers were on floppy disks you kept in your desk. All your data fit on one or two floppies. In fact, many people used to reformat as a matter of routine. And security was not the problem it is today either. So years ago, people used to reformat all the time, and that was fine because people had everything they needed on hand.

Today, chances are most of your programs come from downloads, or have been updated several times since new. -{ Quote: "I even see computer techs reformatting computers at the drop of a hat. " }-They are not real techs - but wannabes and amateurs. But I note if the user's goal is to get a working, and CLEAN, computer back fast, and they don't care about any lost data, then a reformat and reinstall can be lot faster, if done properly. And when talking labor charges by the hour, reformatting can be less expensive too.

But for many users, the data on the computer is worth more than the computer, and, of course, we all know how diligent users are about keeping a current backup.

Here is my canned text on why reformatting should be avoided:

You definitely need to avoid reformatting as that is ALWAYS a last ditch effort. At the very least, you should attempt to repair your installation of XP before attempting to format and reinstall. See Michael Stevens XP Repair Install (http://michaelstevenstech.com/XPrepairinstall.htm) for complete instructions and necessary precautions.When you format your boot drive, you lose:
All hardware drivers, including: Drivers specific to XP SP2 (or Vista),
Drivers specific to your motherboard, such as those needed for on-board graphics, sound, networking, USB I/O, SATA/SCSI controllers, etc. Data files - including, Documents, spreadsheets, databases, etc.,
Photos, music/audio and video,
Email (if using Outlook Express, Outlook or some other "client" (PC) based email program), as well as any saved contacts, appointments, and notes,
Favorites/Bookmarks[/indent] Downloaded programs and updates to them, including all your required security applications,
Custom configurations, for Windows and all other programs,...and worst of all,
Security patches and Critical Updates setting your security defenses months, or even years behind!Also of key importance, when a format and reinstall is performed instead of troubleshooting and repair, nothing is learned! The cause is left undetermined. The user does not know what happened, and most importantly, what behavior to change to prevent recurrence.

Once all repair options have been exhausted and the decision is to go ahead and reformat/reinstall, you must:
Ensure you have backed up all critical data and files,
Have all original installation disks and the CD/license keys on hand for Windows, as well as any other applications you have installed from CD, DVD, or download,
Have copies of all hardware drivers on CD, either original maker's driver disks, or better yet, by downloading (the latest version) from maker's download pages and burn them to CD, including drivers for, The motherboard devices (including those for integrated devices),
Graphics card (if not integrated),
Sound card (if not integrated) (technically, sound is not needed, or at least, can wait), Current copy of your anti-virus program (I would also recommend replacing Windows Firewall with a full two-way firewall at this time).

[Fly]

One item that has been ignored is the corruption of the OS.

Malware can do that. Uninstalling and installing software, especially security software can do that too. Especially if that is done frequently. In my own experience, it's only a matter of time till some corruption of the OS (actually not just the OS, but the system, which includes programs and data) will occur. In the past I have tried to 'repair' 'stuff', but that doesn't always solve the problem and it can easily cause further system corruption.

This is one of the reasons why I have and use an imaging setup. I always keep a known clean image.

[midway40]

-{ Quote: "I'm getting a little off-topic here but how did you determine there were 900 instances of infection? I mean, did you use scan in safe mode or use an online scanner? What was your method of detection?

I once had a relative's computer that took about 15-20 minutes to boot to the desktop and my first instinct was to scan for malware. I scanned in safe mode and with an online scanner as well as with the scanners that were already installed on the computer. But I only found two fairly harmless spyware. They certainly weren't anything that would cause a computer to run that slow. A repair tech claims the computer was infested with spyware. I have serious doubts about that. But I'd really like to learn more about this." }-

At that time (pre-MBAM days) I used SAS-Spybot-Adaware in my cleanings. I remember SAS reporting over 900 instances but that count included cookies and registry entries as well. It took the before-mentioned tools plus some specialized ones such as SmitFraudFix to clean it. I also had to do some registry work as on bootup I was getting error messages about some DLL's not being found (the malware DLLs that were removed). I was able to return the computer back to normal--or what is normal for WinMe, lol.

Today when someone brings me a computer to clean I usually use the MBAM+SAS+Spybot combo (and specialized removers if needed). I then install an antivirus as a lot of computers that are brought to me have old expired AVs installed (in fact I had a Dell B110 today that had an expired Norton 2005 installed). I remove all the old restore points to make sure nothing comes back to haunt the user later and make sure Windows is updated. HDD clutter is then removed with CCleaner and I then end with a defrag of the HDD.

EDIT: I scan in safe mode normally. Today on the Dell B110 that I mentioned, MBAM reported 83 instances. After I cleaned and then rebooted I started getting BSODs even in safe mode. I was contemplating performing a repair reinstall when I thought about the Apricorn DriveWire disk cloner I use. It also turns a internal HDD into something like a USB external drive. I pulled the HDD out and plugged it into my workstation and let SAV10 scan it. It found some more nasties and when I put the HDD back the BSODs were gone. This is the first time I have ever used this method of cleaning malware out of a HDD and after today it will become another tool in my arsenal.

[wtsinnc]

I think the increasing prevalence of reformatting has much to do with the increased knowledge of just how dangerous today's malware infections can be.

The paranoia over identity theft is, in my opinion, well founded as I know three people who've been victimized and all three employed quality antivirus, antispyware, and third-party firewalls.
All three kept their operating systems patched via MS automatic updating, and all were single users on that particular computer.
As far as visiting suspect websites, I really don't know.

-Anyway-

The aforementioned paranoia continues even following the successful removal of detected malware.
"Did I really get it all ?"
"Is anything still in my computer; UNDETECTED ?"

When you're dealing with that state of mind, the only procedure that will truly alleviate the fear is reformatting/reinstalling and starting over clean.
The ready availability of open source imaging and cloning applications make the process of reinstalling the OS and all drivers, applications, and documents a piece of cake- usually.

So it comes down to the choice of how much doubt can you tolerate.

[noone_particular]

IMO, there's several more factors that are contributing to the rise in reformatting instead of cleaning.

The user base has changed. There's a much higher percentage of casual users who know very little about how their PC actually works, let alone how to clean it. Computer enthusiasts and hobbyists make up a much smaller percentage of the users than before. Now it's gamers and dedicated P2P users who believe that security measures just slow their systems down. They'd rather reformat than use anything that might slow them down.
The infective agents have changed. Rootkits make up a much larger percentage of the malicious code. Years back, malicious code was primarily annoying. Now it's professionally written theft tools, making the cost of a failed or incomplete removal much higher. Because of their hidden nature and a degree of uncertainty regarding their detection and complete removal, there's a lingering doubt as to whether a system has truly been cleaned of rootkits. That tends to make people reformat, just to make sure it's gone.
The operating systems are more complex. There's more places malware can hide. The new systems are not as easy to clean as the old ones. On a 9X system, DOS could do almost everything that needed to be done. Now it requires specialized tools, rootkit detectors, live CDs, etc.
Add these factors to the ones already mentioned.

-{ Quote: "The aforementioned paranoia continues even following the successful removal of detected malware.
"Did I really get it all ?"
"Is anything still in my computer; UNDETECTED ?"
When you're dealing with that state of mind, the only procedure that will truly alleviate the fear is reformatting/reinstalling and starting over clean." }-
Your points are quite valid. The cost of failure is much higher with todays malware. A missed detection or incomplete removal might cost you everything in your bank account. A few years back, I cleaned a keylogger out of a PC that was built to steal financial logins. The owner called the bank and caught them in the process of trying to transfer out funds. 5 minutes later and he would have had an empty checkbook. Yes, most banks have implemented better login systems, but the malware has got better too. When the threats are real and there are real difficulties with detecting and/or removing them, it's not paranoia. It's a very normal reaction to very real threats that steal real money.

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "Many, many years ago it used to be that people only reformatted their computers as a last resort. People would spend an hour or two (or more) trying to fix the problem and prevent it from recurring. Now, people have one minor little problem and they reformat. It's like it's become trendy. I even see computer techs reformatting computers at the drop of a hat. Is reformatting like this really necessary? I have a computer book that was written by an expert and he basically says reformatting should be a last resort. So why do so many people reformat over the tiniest little problems? Like one guy reformatted because he got one little piece of spyware on his computer. I think that was going way overboard.

Opinions?" }-
I tend to be one of these people who are quick to reformat. One reason, it's simply quicker to reformat than spend that 2-3 or more hours trying to fix something. Another reason, if any instance of malware ever did get on the machine, I'd be one of those who'd want to be 100% sure it was gone and that there were no other problems resulting from the "infestation". And finally, there is nothing like a 100% clean brand new PC to cure all ills.

[wtsinnc]

-{ Quote: "I tend to be one of these people who are quick to reformat. One reason, it's simply quicker to reformat than spend that 2-3 or more hours trying to fix something. Another reason, if any instance of malware ever did get on the machine, I'd be one of those who'd want to be 100% sure it was gone and that there were no other problems resulting from the "infestation". And finally, there is nothing like a 100% clean brand new PC to cure all ills." }-

I'm the same way !
I have master hard drives, built from a scratch "bare metal" install, for Windows 2000, XP Home, XP Pro, Vista, and Windows 7 RC-1.
Each drive contains the base OS, all applicable MS updates, patches, and hotfixes, all necessary drivers, and a handful of applications I consider as indispensable, such as CCleaner, WinPatrol, Malwarebytes, and my twelve video-related programs for DVD backup and editing.

I use 40gb SATA hard drives for general use such as web surfing.
When a particular install needs to be changed for any reason, I can reformat in twelve minutes and clone the desired OS from the master via CopyWipe in about two minutes..
After rebooting to finalize the install, I can then add anything else I want to use such as the antivirus, antispyware, and firewall of my choice, Sandboxie, a different web browser, or...

Much faster than hunting for malware and piece of mind knowing the drive is clean.

[SourMilk]

Offline separate clean image always works for me.

SourMilk out

[Seer]

-{ Quote: "IMO the removal tools available today do such a fantastic job....how could anyone say clicking on them 4 times is more difficult than reinstalling the OS and software and blah blah on their PC? " }-

YeOldeStonecat,

not all problems on PCs are caused by malware...

[Osaban]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but I have to ask: is it really necessary to reformat before reinstalling Windows? I thought reinstalling Windows automatically wipes out what ever was previously recorded, I always thought that reformatting was equivalent to erase whatever was on disk.

[Fly]

-{ Quote: "Forgive me for my ignorance, but I have to ask: is it really necessary to reformat before reinstalling Windows? I thought reinstalling Windows automatically wipes out what ever was previously recorded, I always thought that reformatting was equivalent to erase whatever was on disk." }-

Technically, a reformat might not be enough.

If you have several partitions, hidden partitions, malware hiding in bad sectors and possibly other things, you may need more.

Wiping the harddisk is best. For example, DBAN.

Actually, doesn't a Windows XP reinstall (booting from Windows XP CD) start with a reformat ?
I'm not sure, it has been a long time since I did that.

[Bill_Bright]

-{ Quote: "I think the increasing prevalence of reformatting " }-That's NOT happening and I challenge anyone to show evidence (links to real studies) suggesting otherwise. Okay, more people (and "wannabe" technicians) may format at the drop of a hat, but that's only because there are nearly 1 billion Windows computers out there, compared to "only" a few 100 million just 5 years ago. Percentage wise, the numbers are not increasing, but instead, due to education (in forums like this, for example), more robust operating systems, and more reliable hardware, indiscriminate reformatting is decreasing. Prior to NT based Windows (NT, W2K, XP and newer), reformatting was done as a matter of routine. But no longer.

We must remember that most users do NOT have current backups of all their data, or disk image files on hand. Those that do, are NOT "normal" users. We must also remember that PCs for most are a necessity, a way of life and not primarily used as a source of entertainment. The value of the data (work and school papers, emails, taxes, banking, contacts, appointments, etc.) is often worth MUCH more than the hardware.

Also worth mentioning is many factory made PCs do not come with disks.

-{ Quote: "I tend to be one of these people who are quick to reformat. One reason, it's simply quicker to reformat than spend that 2-3 or more hours trying to fix something. Another reason, if any instance of malware ever did get on the machine, I'd be one of those who'd want to be 100% sure it was gone and that there were no other problems resulting from the "infestation". And finally, there is nothing like a 100% clean brand new PC to cure all ills." }-The biggest problem with this position is NOTHING is learned! You don't learn what the problem is, how to fix the problem, and most importantly, how to prevent recurrence. And, unless you have created a very recent image, I remind readers again, you could be set back months, or years in security updates and patches.

It is important to remember that computers get infected when users fail to keep their systems patched, updated, scanned and blocked, AND they fail to avoid risky practices, like visiting illegal p*rn, gambling, or P2P sites that support illegal filesharing of copyrighted materials.

-{ Quote: "I always thought that reformatting was equivalent to erase whatever was on disk." }-A common misconception. A format does little more than prepare a disk for data storage, and "mark" the space as available. It does not purge any data previously saved on the disk. This is basically the same thing that happens when you delete a file. It is not removed from the hard drive, the space is just marked in the drive's tables as free and any data there can easily be retrieved, until it has been overwritten.

-{ Quote: "Wiping the harddisk is best. For example, DBAN." }-I agree. But note wiping does not remove data either, and has nothing to do with formatting a disk, or laying down a file system (NTFS or FAT32, for example). It simply overwrites every track and sector several times with a bunch of 1s and 0s, obliterating any residue magnetism (the 1s and 0s representing your data) on the disk. I recommend Eraser (http://www.heidi.ie/eraser/), which has a GUI front-end, and uses DBAN technology.

[YeOldeStonecat]

-{ Quote: "YeOldeStonecat,

not all problems on PCs are caused by malware..." }-

I'm quite aware of that, as I work on end users PCs for a living. But with even a little knowledge, one can find/fix the cause.

And my goal is to do what works, and what's most cost effective and efficient and permanent for the client and myself. I prefer my time to be spent managing clients business networks, building, new deploys, maintenance work. My hourly rate is 125/hour, but most of my clients are on monthly retainers....so if a machine isn't properly fixed...thus keeps coming back to me and making me suck up more time in the rig...I end up losing. Thus I seek a permanent fix...I don't want machines coming back to me.

Thus....if the tools available to use today didn't work, and if wiping it clean and reinstalling truly was a time saver...I'd be doing that.

[DVD+R]

I dont format, I scrub the Devil off my Disks with WipeDrive Pro :dry: Not a glimmer of Data left over once you use this software :lurking:

[JohnnyDollar]

-{ Quote: "I dont format, I scrub the Devil off my Disks with WipeDrive Pro :dry: Not a glimmer of Data left over once you use this software :lurking:" }-

Can't you format 2 or 3 times and do the same thing?

[Bill_Bright]

-{ Quote: "I prefer my time to be spent managing clients business networks" }-I don't think it fair to compare the needs of business network clients to home users. They have different needs. A business owner needs the computer back in production NOW so his worker can be productive. A home user needs the computer up and running so he can access his data, pay his bills, surf the Internet.

Business machines typically are little more than "workstations" - that is, they are not used to store data "locally" but rather on a centrally located server. Employees can, in effect, sign-in from any machine on their network and do what they need to do, to include accessing their email accounts. Business networks are backed up on regular (or continual) basis. If a machine is down, someone sits idle so it certainly is more cost effective to the company's bottom line to put that machine back in service as soon as possible. So a wipe and a re-image and bingo, the machine is back in service, with NO data lost as it is all on the server.

Home users, typically, don't have that luxury. They don't have servers or scheduled backups. They don't have a local repository of all their downloaded security programs, applications, or even HW drivers.

So my point is you cannot compare the needs of business clients to ALL home users because sadly, most home users are not prepared to lose all their data and all their downloaded and installed programs, email, updates and patches. Therefore, reformatting should always be a last resort.

So blanket statements and policies do not apply here. If the user could care less about the data, applications, custom configurations, then sure, get the machine back up and running ASAP with a wipe and re-image and the boss is happy.

But if the user is a typical home user, and needs and wants those documents, email, downloaded programs, family photos, user accounts, etc. then handing them back blank hard drive is not likely to win you a loyal customer.

-{ Quote: "Can't you format 2 or 3 times and do the same thing?" }-No. Once again, a (re)format does not erase the data - it only prepares the disk for data storage, and "MARKS" the space as "available". Anyone can use commonly available recovery programs to retrieve previously saved data - if it has not been over-written through normal use.

The only way to actually destroy data is to overwrite it by re-aligning the magnetic particles into a different pattern. These "wipe" programs do not "wipe". They do not "erase". They do not "delete". They just overwrite the storage spaces a bunch of times to totally obliterate any residual magnetism.

[Kerodo]

Bill I think you're making assumptions on business users. I am a business user and I have all my data (99% of it) stored locally on the laptop, and then backed up to an external HD. Not all, nor perhaps not even most business users store their data on servers.

Also, most, or at least any home users with any sense will backup any important data to external CD/DVD's or another HD if they don't want to lose it. Anything I have as a home user that I care about is on DVDs.

I still maintain, after screwing with this stuff for decades now, that the quickest and most efficient way to go much of the time is a reformat and reinstall. After years of experience, my tolerance for wasting time trying to fix broken things is near zero. These days, give me a quick reformat any time over spending hours trying to straighten out an issue, only to find out there's no fix much of the time.

Bottom line: Sometimes a reformat is the most intelligent and time effective way to go.

[Bill_Bright]

-{ Quote: "Bill I think you're making assumptions on business users.
Not all, nor perhaps not even most business users store their data on servers." }- You've never worked the government or corporate IT world, huh? Where one building has 100s or 1000s of PCs? And they communicate with 100s or 1000s of buildings across the state, country, or around the world? And without whom there would be no networks, or file servers, or Internet?

I am not assuming anything, but I did base my comment on YeOldStonecats comment that he was on retainer, and his goal is to return the PC to service in the shortest time.

And while I note many "business users" use laptops, most don't, at least not as their primary "office" computer.

-{ Quote: "Also, most, or at least any home users with any sense will backup any important data" }-Well, there's where you show your lack of understanding. Most people (not on servers with an IT expert scheduling backups) don't back up regularly. Surely you don't suggest reality is otherwise? Common sense has nothing to do with reality. Common sense says lots of things, but that does prevent very intelligent people from ignoring it ("it won't happen to me"). -{ Quote: "I still maintain, after screwing with this stuff for decades now, that the quickest and most efficient way to go much of the time is a reformat and reinstall. " }-I never denied that, and as seen in my sig link, I have decades of experience too, but that means nothing, or actually proves my point - you are not "normal". You are looking at it from your side, as someone in IT, and not from the position of the "normal" user, who just expects the computer to work. I am looking at it from a typical user's point of view.

-{ Quote: "Bottom line: Sometimes a reformat is the most intelligent and time effective way to go." }-That's true. But if it is not your data you are destroying, formatting is always a last resort. Taking the easy way out, which is exactly what "time effective way to go" means, is not always the "right" way. Even if the critical data has been backed up. And I say again, unless you have a current image file (which would make you an abnormal user, not a normal user), you will be months, or even years behind in security updates and patches as likely your OS disk will not be XPSP3 or VistaSP1 - and, show of hands, how many "normal" users have all the patches slipstreamed with their install disk? 1? 2 maybe?

Formatting to fix a problem is the easy way out. If that's your bag, and you (and more importantly, your client) don't care about data, user configurations, or any user downloaded applications, including security programs that will now be gone too, fine. But that's not fixing the problem. And certainly nothing is learned to keep the problem from recurring.

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "
Formatting to fix a problem is the easy way out. If that's your bag, and you (and more importantly, your client) don't care about data, user configurations, or any user downloaded applications, including security programs that will now be gone too, fine. But that's not fixing the problem. And certainly nothing is learned to keep the problem from recurring." }-
Of course I'm just stating my own preference based on experience. For me a reformat is the way to go. It solves the problem. As far as learning, you can't help but learn from any experience on a PC. However, most "normal" users as you put it, are not out to learn, they just want it to work. A reformat makes it work. I guess that about sums up my point of view... ;)

[HKEY1952]

Formatting the hard drive should always be the last resort. Sometimes formatting the hard drive can cause more problems and expense for the client.
For example, the client may not have the original Operating System Disk and/or Manufacturer Driver Install Disk. Preserving the clients data should always have top priority.
Replacing Operating Systems, Drivers, and Patches are most of the time available, replacing data is not. An professional troubleshooter will always diagnose the problem first.
Should the diagnostics reveal that formatting the hard drive is in order, then all attempts to archive the clients most important data should be exercised first before formatting.


HKEY1952

[Fly]

-{ Quote: "Formatting the hard drive should always be the last resort. Sometimes formatting the hard drive can cause more problems and expense for the client.
For example, the client may not have the original Operating System Disk and/or Manufacturer Driver Install Disk. Preserving the clients data should always have top priority.
Replacing Operating Systems, Drivers, and Patches are most of the time available, replacing data is not. An professional troubleshooter will always diagnose the problem first.
Should the diagnostics reveal that formatting the hard drive is in order, then all attempts to archive the clients most important data should be exercised first before formatting.


HKEY1952" }-

:thumb: I completely agree. All too often service personnell go for the easy solution. If a computer cannot be cleaned easily, they charge a high fee, and do little to nothing to save the data.

[Bill_Bright]

-{ Quote: "For me a reformat is the way to go. It solves the problem. As far as learning, you can't help but learn from any experience on a PC." }-And what is it you learn by formatting? How to format? How does that prevent you from making the same mistake that got you in this mess in the first place? Does formatting teach you how to troubleshoot? How to eliminate possibilities and isolate the cause? Does knowing how to format teach you how to fix the problem? Any problem? No. It just makes one an expert at formatting. :doubt:

And the sad part is, you can look through these forums and find, time and time again where users formatted and still have the same problem. Often because they went right back and downloaded the same infected file again. Or a rootkit survived the format (as many do), or it was a hardware issue all along.

[HKEY1952]

Professionals follow procedures, and care more about the client than of themselves. Professionals never know enough, and are eager to learn more, that's what makes professionals, professional.
Fortune seekers care about themselves, and have no regards for the client. Fortune seekers are not eager to learn more, and believe they know it all, that's what separates professionals from amateurs.


HKEY1952

[DVD+R]

-{ Quote: "Can't you format 2 or 3 times and do the same thing?" }-

Short Anwser : No.

[Keyboard_Commando]

-{ Quote: "Professionals follow procedures, and care more about the client than of themselves. Professionals never know enough, and are eager to learn more, that's what makes professionals, professional.
Fortune seekers care about themselves, and have no regards for the client. Fortune seekers are not eager to learn more, and believe they know it all, that's what separates professionals from amateurs.


HKEY1952" }-

Ah grasshopper. Hear and you forget; see and you remember; do and you understand.

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "And what is it you learn by formatting? How to format? How does that prevent you from making the same mistake that got you in this mess in the first place? Does formatting teach you how to troubleshoot? How to eliminate possibilities and isolate the cause? Does knowing how to format teach you how to fix the problem? Any problem? No. It just makes one an expert at formatting. :doubt:

And the sad part is, you can look through these forums and find, time and time again where users formatted and still have the same problem. Often because they went right back and downloaded the same infected file again. Or a rootkit survived the format (as many do), or it was a hardware issue all along." }-
It's not about learning Bill, it's about what's the most efficient course of action. If you're observant at all, you'll see what you did wrong and the results as it happens. I see no value in spending hours trying to track down some obscure problem, which may not (and often doesn't) even have a solution. If you're observant and see the cause and effect of things, you'll avoid the same problem on the next attempt. Again, your assumptions are half wrong. You're assuming that all problems can be fixed, and believe me, many can't. It's a matter of avoiding the cause next time around.

I know some friends who repeatedly used to get themselves infested with malware, and spend literally days trying to clean it up and unravel the problems and consequences. A reformat fixes it all in a couple hours. Which route would you go? The solution is not to spend days farting around with the machine. The solution is to avoid the incorrect problem-causing behavior to begin with.

Truth is, it depends much on the type of "problem" we're talking about. Sure, some things can be tracked down and fixed. That's fine. But just as many more cannot. After years of experience, I think you'll agree that Windows can get itself into some pretty obscure and screwed up messes. At this point, I prefer a quick and easy solution, rather than spending hours or more wrestling with things. Some issues I will fix, sure. But often times the best solution IS a reformat.

[Bill_Bright]

-{ Quote: "It's not about learning Bill" }-Of course it is.

-{ Quote: "it's about what's the most efficient course of action. " }-No it's not. It's about doing the right thing for the client.

-{ Quote: "If you're observant at all, you'll see what you did wrong and the results as it happens" }-That's a ridiculous statement. Don't BS us!!!! You don't get a report after the format telling you what it discovered, and what was done to correct the original problem. What you get is a blank disk. No OS. No security programs. No data. No user profiles. No hardware drivers. No email. No network connection. Now if that is all the client wants, then fine. And that is certainly how many big business clients want it. But most home and small office users consider their machines something other than toys, and want more than an blank disk or default Windows installation with no user accounts, no data, no applications, and no network access.

-{ Quote: "You're assuming that all problems can be fixed" }-No I'm not. I already told you once I don't assume anything. If I assumed that all problems could be fixed, I would not have said that formatting is a last resort, I would have said formatting is never needed.

-{ Quote: "It's a matter of avoiding the cause next time around. " }-Thank you. That's what I have been saying. And since a format reveals NOTHING of the cause, once again, you learn NOTHING from a format. That is not to say not formatting will always yield the cause, but it certainly can.

-{ Quote: "I know some friends who repeatedly used to get themselves infested with malware, and spend literally days trying to clean it up and unravel the problems and consequences. A reformat fixes it all in a couple hours. Which route would you go? " }-That's another silly statement. The OBVIOUS route is to teach your friends how to keep their systems patched, updated, scanned and blocked, AND teach them to avoid the risky practices they OBVIOUSLY continue to do. And that includes avoiding illegal porn and gambling sites, and most importantly, P2P sites that facilitate illegal file sharing of copyrighted materials such as songs, videos and published documents.

If your friends are continually getting infested, and you are the go-to IT guy, then IMO, you have failed to properly educate them!
-{ Quote: "But often times the best solution IS a reformat" }-Often? No way. Sometimes? Yes, but rarely.

Formatting should be the exception, not the norm.

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "
Formatting should be the exception, not the norm." }-
I think we're beating it to death at this point. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. ;)

[HKEY1952]

True professionals that are experts in their field, will never argue their point excessively, true professionals know they are right.
True professionals will never try to convince counter beliefs, true professionals deliver the information and leave it at that.
When troubleshooting any computer, top priority is always preserving the original data. If the original data can be preserved in the unfortunate circumstance the
technician is unable to solve the situation, or gain knowledge, or gain more knowledge of the situation, then the technician must set aside their own personal gain and concentrate
on preserving the original data and placing the clients best interests at heart above and beyond ones self interest or gain.


HKEY1952

[Bill_Bright]

-{ Quote: "True professionals will never try to convince counter beliefs" }-I disagree completely! Especially here! The very concept of "forums" is to foster healthy debate! Not to dart in, make some claims, and dart out. -{ Quote: "true professionals know they are right" }-And I vehemently disagree with that! :( If there is one thing I have learned working hardware support for so long it is that IT technologies are advancing faster than any one person can keep track of - there is always more to learn. If you have ever worked in a large IT department (say 400+ employees with nearly all having expertise in one or more areas of IT), you know there is often (not always, but often) several ways to skin a cat, too. So a true professional would have confidence to know when they are right, but not so arrogant to assume they are right and therefore everyone else must be wrong.

Forums helpers come from a wide variety of IT backgrounds too. That's the icing on the cake for helping out at these forums - there are all kinds of expert brains to pick.

@YeOldeStonecat - do NOT think I am being critical of you. As an IT consultant, I congratulate you on scoring the retainer deals. I repeat what I said earlier - if the machine needs to get back into production now, and a format (or new drive) and re-image keeps the boss happy, then that's great. No argument from me. You said earlier you feel formatting is not the easiest and malware removal tools do a "fantastic job" - on both points I agree completely.

And Kerodo, if you are meeting your client's requirements, then that's great too.

But formatting would not do for the vast majority of home users, most of whom do not have an adequate (or current) backup plan in place. I would also wager if you polled those you know with a backup plan if they have tested the recovery process? I suspect they would give you the Bambi in the headlights look. People really should swap in a blank boot disk to see if they know how to recover from a failed drive.

My problem with your position, and reason for pressing my position, even if to the point of being excessive, is three fold:

All the lost data, missing updates, patches, applications, and user customizations


The missed opportunity to learn - perhaps not so you can learn something new, but so you can show the client (or your friends who keep getting infected), where they messed up, and what you did to fix it. I agree with YeOldStonecat when he said, -{ Quote: "we get a huge amount of infested PCs into our shop, most of it can be cleaned quite well with the good cleaning/removal tools these days such as MalwareBytes, ComboFix, SuperAntispyware, AntiVir, Spybot, MRT, MSE, etc. Especially a service shop that has a bench PC where you can slave the customers drive to and perform good deep scans outside of the OS. It's a very small percentage that we run across where we throw in the towel and rebuild." }-It is surprising how many problems are cleared just running Window Disk Cleanup (which has the nice option to purge all but the most recent System Restore point) or CCleaner. And chkdsk /r can do wonders too, all the while preserving the user's files and setup. Perhaps it is not so good for my business, but I tell my clients what I found wrong, and what I did to fix it. If the problem was malware, I make sure they have a solid defense, and know how to maintain it. And, since I typically find evidence of P2P filesharing whenever I find malware, we talk about the safety, security, and legality issues of filesharing too.


Forums are a place of learning. I think as helpers on these forums, we should be teaching how to avoid the need for formatting and reinstalling Windows, by teaching folks how keep systems current and protected, clean of heat trapping dust, and other proactive, preventative measures. This being a place of learning, you say you learn from formatting - I have asked but you have yet to tell us. What do you learn from formatting that can help prevent the need to format again? :what:

[HKEY1952]

-{ Quote: "I disagree completely! Especially here! The very concept of "forums" is to foster healthy debate! Not to dart in, make some claims, and dart out. [-QUOTE+HKEY1952]true professionals know they are right[-/quote]And I vehemently disagree with that! If there is one thing I have learned working hardware support for so long it is that IT technologies are advancing faster than any one person can keep track of - there is always more to learn. If you have ever worked in a large IT department (say 400+ employees with nearly all having expertise in one or more areas of IT), you know there is often (not always, but often) several ways to skin a cat, too. So a true professional would have confidence to know when they are right, but not so arrogant to assume they are right and therefore everyone else must be wrong." }-


Well Mr. Bright.....perhaps you will learn this today from this Forum and Thread:

When you Quote someone, use the entire sentence in the Quote, not truncated sentences of the Quote.
Using truncated sentences of the Quote to twist the meaning toward your benefit is unprofessional, example:

This would be an arrogant statement when truncated from the entire sentence as you have done:
-{ Quote: "true professionals know they are right" }-

This statement proclaims that the person knows what they are talking about, and will not argue excessively to convince otherwise:
-{ Quote: "True professionals that are experts in their field, will never argue their point excessively, true professionals know they are right." }-

For clarification, perhaps the statement should have read:
-{ Quote: "True professionals that are experts in their field, will never argue their point excessively, true professionals know WHEN they are right." }-

You may disagree all that you want, that is your right, however, when you Quote someone, Quote the entire sentence please.


HKEY1952

[HKEY1952]

-{ Quote: "This being a place of learning, you say you learn from formatting - I have asked but you have yet to tell us. What do you learn from formatting that can help prevent the need to format again? :what:" }-

This question is not directly addressed to me but I will answer the question.
What I have learned from formatting to help prevent the need to format again is that I must not give up too easily.
I must try to the best of my knowledge and ability to solve the problem and use formatting as an last resort.
If I must format, I will not brow beat myself, one can not solve or correct all the problems of an computer or network without at some point failing.

Bill, what have you learned from formatting to help you prevent the need to format again?


HKEY1952

[dantz]

-{ Quote: "
No. Once again, a (re)format does not erase the data - it only prepares the disk for data storage, and "MARKS" the space as "available". Anyone can use commonly available recovery programs to retrieve previously saved data - if it has not been over-written through normal use. " }-
You're describing the behavior of Windows XP. A Windows Vista format writes zeros to the entire area being formatted, overwriting all data.

[Bill_Bright]

@HKEY - I don't see how my extraction changed the meaning of your original comments. I used only the excerpt to save space, not to change or twist the meaning (something that would upset me too). I am sorry if you felt otherwise.

Here is your complete comment: -{ Quote: "True professionals that are experts in their field, will never argue their point excessively, true professionals know they are right.
True professionals will never try to convince counter beliefs, true professionals deliver the information and leave it at that." }-I still disagree for the reasons I stated.

@dantz - Good point. In the "default" setting, a "full" format in Vista (and Win7) does indeed write zeros. And for most people, that would be fine, but it does not meet government standards for a "wipe". The quick format option does not write zeros.

-{ Quote: "Bill, what have you learned from formatting to help you prevent the need to format again?" }-Nothing. Except as you said, formatting is a last resort. That's why I avoid formatting unless there is no other choice. My point all along.

[JohnnyDollar]

-{ Quote: "You're describing the behavior of Windows XP. A Windows Vista format writes zeros to the entire area being formatted, overwriting all data." }-

That is what I thought, but wasn't sure.

What is the difference between a quick format and regular format in Vista?

Edit: -{ Quote: "The quick format option does not write zeros. " }-

That answered my question.

[JohnnyDollar]

-{ Quote: "Dantz - Good point. In the "default" setting, a "full" format in Vista (and Win7) does indeed write zeros. And for most people, that would be fine, but it does not meet government standards for a "wipe". The quick format option does not write zeros. " }-

Since the Vista long format writes 0's then wouldn't formatting it in Vista 2 or 3 times wipe it?

I asked this earlier but in a different context, so I'm asking it again to make sure.

[Bill_Bright]

-{ Quote: "Since the Vista long format writes 0's then wouldn't formatting it in Vista 2 or 3 times wipe it?" }-Again, not good enough for government standards but good enough more the majority of users. And certainly, as soon as you start to save all your programs and files, and start to use the disk, it will be over written again.

[Boost]

At the end of the year,I always reformat,start fresh for the new year :thumb:

[Raza0007]

-{ Quote: "At the end of the year,I always reformat,start fresh for the new year :thumb:" }-
Same here; but I do it twice a year, as I mess with my computer a lot. Twice a year I wipe all sectors of my drive (zero fill) and restore from a base image which just has the OS on it.

[YeOldeStonecat]

-{ Quote: "I don't think it fair to compare the needs of business network clients to home users. They have different needs. A business owner needs the computer back in production NOW so his worker can be productive. A home user needs the computer up and running so he can access his data, pay his bills, surf the Internet.

Business machines typically are little more than "workstations" - that is, they are not used to store data "locally" but rather on a centrally located server. Employees can, in effect, sign-in from any machine on their network and do what they need to do, to include accessing their email accounts. Business networks are backed up on regular (or continual) basis. If a machine is down, someone sits idle so it certainly is more cost effective to the company's bottom line to put that machine back in service as soon as possible. So a wipe and a re-image and bingo, the machine is back in service, with NO data lost as it is all on the server.

So blanket statements and policies do not apply here. " }-

First, I wasn't comparing the two. Actually to be more accurate, what I stated was that "I prefer my time to be spent managing clients business networks". Which wasn't statement comparing cleaning Biz PC vs Home PC.

It's not to say I get my share of home PCs to clean up. What it did say is I prefer to focus on biz networks.

I also focus on SMB...Small==>Medium Business networks...not enterprise. So stuff like roaming profile and instant network imaging of workstations isn't usually the luxury for SMB. And quite a few are simply peer to peer networks...so they're rather like a home PC.

[Bill_Bright]

-{ Quote: "I also focus on SMB...Small==>Medium Business networks...not enterprise. So stuff like roaming profile and instant network imaging of workstations isn't usually the luxury for SMB. And quite a few are simply peer to peer networks...so they're rather like a home PC." }-Understood. But I also note you said, -{ Quote: "Thus....if the tools available to use today didn't work, and if wiping it clean and reinstalling truly was a time saver...I'd be doing that." }-Which suggests to me you try to avoid a format and reinstall, if at all possible, before resorting to those drastic measures.

[Fly]

I really don't understand how people are going to 'learn' if they give their computer to an 'expert', or try to solve their problems by going to a website like www.bleepingcomputer.com .

Suppose the 'expert' gives the client some logs of the infections that the security programs detected. What good would that do ?

Aside from the fact that if the client had installed a rogue security program, nothing ! They are not going to study computer security, learning about LUA/SRP, SuRun, Linux.

Or is the idea to frustrate the user/client so much that he will be more cautious the next time ? :-\

[Bill_Bright]

-{ Quote: "I really don't understand how people are going to 'learn' if they give their computer to an 'expert', or try to solve their problems by going to a website like www.bleepingcomputer.com .

Suppose the 'expert' gives the client some logs of the infections that the security programs detected. What good would that do ?

Aside from the fact that if the client had installed a rogue security program, nothing ! They are not going to study computer security, learning about LUA/SRP, SuRun, Linux.

Or is the idea to frustrate the user/client so much that he will be more cautious the next time ? :-\" }-
Wow! I sure don't see what your issue with BC is. That is considered among the better tech support sites, staffed by many volunteer experts, many who spend time here too. Sure, there will always be folks haphazardly offering questionable advice, but that's where the staff steps in. As far as I am concerned, Wilders is also a "website like www.bleepingcomputer.com." The staff and regular contributors are there, and here because they sincerely wish to help.

The difference between taking a PC to a shop, and visiting a forum for advice is the forum guides you through the troubleshooting and repair process - or that's the idea anyway. So you learn by doing it yourself, with someone with more experience watching over your shoulder.

-{ Quote: "Suppose the 'expert' gives the client some logs of the infections that the security programs detected. What good would that do ?" }-Not sure what you mean here. The expert gives the OP some logs? I see it the other way around. The expert asks the OP run a scanner (HJT, for example) and to post their log. The expert analyzes the log for the OP/Client, then guides the OP to fixing any problems noted in the log. Do you see it working differently from that?

As for taking it to a shop, let's not forget that most computer users care as much about fixing their own computers as they do about fixing their own cars, or refrigerators. Sadly, finding a reputable shop with qualified "technicians" can be a big chore in itself. Especially when there are some calling themselves technicians when their only real experience is "mounting" a few hardware components inside a computer case - tools required: one #2 Phillips screwdriver.

[Fly]

-{ Quote: "Wow! I sure don't see what your issue with BC is. That is considered among the better tech support sites, staffed by many volunteer experts, many who spend time here too. Sure, there will always be folks haphazardly offering questionable advice, but that's where the staff steps in. As far as I am concerned, Wilders is also a "website like www.bleepingcomputer.com." The staff and regular contributors are there, and here because they sincerely wish to help.

The difference between taking a PC to a shop, and visiting a forum for advice is the forum guides you through the troubleshooting and repair process - or that's the idea anyway. So you learn by doing it yourself, with someone with more experience watching over your shoulder.

Not sure what you mean here. The expert gives the OP some logs? I see it the other way around. The expert asks the OP run a scanner (HJT, for example) and to post their log. The expert analyzes the log for the OP/Client, then guides the OP to fixing any problems noted in the log. Do you see it working differently from that?

As for taking it to a shop, let's not forget that most computer users care as much about fixing their own computers as they do about fixing their own cars, or refrigerators. Sadly, finding a reputable shop with qualified "technicians" can be a big chore in itself. Especially when there are some calling themselves technicians when their only real experience is "mounting" a few hardware components inside a computer case - tools required: one #2 Phillips screwdriver." }-

I have no issue with bleepingcomputers.com !

Say, one visits a forum and asks for help.
The user receives advice about the cleaning process. Possibly with someone looking over his shoulder.

During the cleaning process, possibly with someone looking over his shoulder, the user learns about the malware present on the computer. If it's not rogue security software, how is this a learning experience ? I have used many antimalware programs in the past for both real-time and on-demand scanning, and I learned little from it. Except that my security software didn't perform as well as I wanted.
If one finds infections one usually doesn't know where they came from.

So, how is this a learning process ? There are a lot of tools for on-demand scans. In most cases, I didn't learn where the infections came from.
If you are suggesting that noticing the presence of malware is a learning experience, fine, you can do that. But how is that an argument against wiping and reformatting ?

Btw, it´s a long time since I got an infection.

[Bill_Bright]

-{ Quote: "During the cleaning process, possibly with someone looking over his shoulder, the user learns about the malware present on the computer. " }--{ Quote: "So, how is this a learning process ?" }-Didn't you just answer your own question? Why were you seeking advice in the first place? I am guessing because your computer was having problems. Had you simply reformatted, you would not have learned there was malware present on the computer, and more importantly, that you needed to beef up your security, or be more diligent in your safe computing practices.

I also note that most experts, at least on the 3 main forums where I am on staff, we don't just say, "do this and goodbye". If the problem was preventable, we typically point the OP towards a sticky or article that shows them how to shore up defenses, and activities to avoid, to prevent the problem from recurring.

-{ Quote: "If you are suggesting that noticing the presence of malware is a learning experience, fine, you can do that. But how is that an argument against wiping and reformatting ?" }-Because as previously noted, there are many fine anti-malware tools out there that do an excellent job of cleaning out infections, without destroying data, user profiles/configurations, downloaded applications, updates, and patches.

If you are suggesting that these anti-malware programs are inadequate, then I would have to disagree. There are always exceptions, but by and large, most infections can be removed safely, and any damage done can be repaired without resorting to reformatting and total reinstall.

And I am not against reformatting. I am just against reformatting before exhausting other possibilities first. Not just because it is tossing in the towel, but, as mentioned often, it sets the computer back months, if not years in patches and critical updates, lost data, yadda, yadda - unless you have a current image or backup to recover from. But then you would not be a typical home user.

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "
And I am not against reformatting. I am just against reformatting before exhausting other possibilities first. Not just because it is tossing in the towel, but, as mentioned often, it sets the computer back months, if not years in patches and critical updates, lost data, yadda, yadda - unless you have a current image or backup to recover from. But then you would not be a typical home user." }-
Good to know you're not opposed to a reformat! :)

I don't see your point though. Reformatting doesn't set the computer back months or years. You reformat and install the OS, you run Win updates and within an hour or so, you're back in business, fully up to date. So you've lost nothing there. As for data, you back up what data you don't want to lose to another source (HD, CD, DVD, etc), then restore the data after the reformat. What else is there? Install your apps again, and you're done. I can reformat and reinstall fully updated and be done in Vista in 3 hours or less. I don't think that's too terrible.

I know you prefer to exhaust all other possibilities first, but really, the process of reformatting isn't all that ugly. I prefer it.

You asked earlier (above somewhere) what one learns from a reformat. Nothing really. I don't remember saying one DID learn anything from a reformat. Learning is something that takes place when anyone uses a PC. I don't know where the whole learning thing was or is going anyway.

You also kept mentioning clients and IT Pro's and so on. I don't think that's what this thread was originally about either. I'm talking from personal home experience, not as any IT professional or anything like that.

Anyway, more fuel for the fire..... :)

[Bill_Bright]

-{ Quote: "I don't see your point though. Reformatting doesn't set the computer back months or years. " }-It sure can! For example, I built this machine in Sept 2002, almost 8 years ago. The OEM XP install disk came with SP1. If I were to reformat and reinstall, it would set my machine back years until I could get back up to SP3, then all the critical updates since SP3. I would have to download and install my graphics drivers again. I use MS Office 2003 so I would have to reinstall Office, then download and install the dozens of updates that have been released since the disks were made. I would lose and have to download and reinstall my firewall, my AV and my AS.

I would lose my graphics drivers. My multifunction printer device drivers would have to be reinstalled so I could print, scan, and fax through it.

When you format, unless you had the foresight to download all your security programs ahead of time and have them handy, you will have to connect to a network and immediately expose your unsecured, vulnerable computer to badguys while you are surfing around fetching your FW, AS, AV, AM, spam blocker, IE8/FF, etc. That is not good. -{ Quote: "You reformat and install the OS, you run Win updates and within an hour or so, you're back in business, fully up to date." }-Yeah right. Perhaps with Windows in an "out-of-the-box" default condition, with nothing else installed.

-{ Quote: "the process of reformatting isn't all that ugly" }-I never said it was. It is after the format, returning the computer back to it's fully functional condition, WITH all previous programs installed and configured as desired that gets ugly, and can take a lot longer than 3 hours to get it tweaked just right.

-{ Quote: "I don't remember saying one DID learn anything from a reformat " }-in post #26, you said, in response to my no lessons learn comment, -{ Quote: "As far as learning, you can't help but learn from any experience on a PC." }-

-{ Quote: "As for data, you back up what data you don't want to lose to another source (HD, CD, DVD, etc), then restore the data after the reformat." }-Sure. Because everyone has a current copy of all their data, right?

[Kerodo]

Well, I don't think we're making any headway here Bill. You're not convincing me, and I'm not convincing you. :)

I don't know if you're on dial-up or DSL or something slow, but on cable I can install any OS, XP, Vista x64, Win 7, you name it, fully update it, and also install MS Office 2007 which I own, as well as flash, java, drivers of all sorts, and a handful of apps, all in about 3 hours. I don't know what slows this down on your end. XP tends to be quickest actually. So we just have different experiences there. Vista is probably slowest. In fact, I just did all of the above a few days ago, installed a new Vista x64 setup with everything in about 3 hours. Anyway, not much else I can say there.

Your comment about data makes no sense to me either. You said:

"Sure. Because everyone has a current copy of all their data, right?"

Yes, doesn't everyone? I'm talking about any and all "data" on the local HD right before you're about to reformat. Just copy it all off to another source. MP3's, videos, documents, pictures, whatever is on there. Move it off and restore it after the reformat. What are you thinking about??

As for your point about the PC being exposed to the internet while you're installing and adding drivers etc, a cheap NAT router, which I have used now for 5 years, takes care of that problem completely. And for only $50 or so. No worries..

I think we are coming from different places so to speak. So perhaps our experiences are somewhat different.

But I'll still take my reformat, or even an image restore, over the alternative any day... :)

[JohnnyDollar]

I have all my drivers and programs on a separate HD. I keep them updated when newer versions come out. Whenever I reinstall it only takes me a few hours to get everything up and running. I don't have to download anything except win updates. I have Office 07 with sp2 slipstreamed. My Vista install disk comes with sp1, sp2 doesn't take long to install. Once I have office and my security programs and a few other apps installed, then I just do the rest of my programs a little bit at a time over the following days.

[Fly]

-{ Quote: "Didn't you just answer your own question? Why were you seeking advice in the first place? I am guessing because your computer was having problems. Had you simply reformatted, you would not have learned there was malware present on the computer, and more importantly, that you needed to beef up your security, or be more diligent in your safe computing practices.

I also note that most experts, at least on the 3 main forums where I am on staff, we don't just say, "do this and goodbye". If the problem was preventable, we typically point the OP towards a sticky or article that shows them how to shore up defenses, and activities to avoid, to prevent the problem from recurring.

Because as previously noted, there are many fine anti-malware tools out there that do an excellent job of cleaning out infections, without destroying data, user profiles/configurations, downloaded applications, updates, and patches.

If you are suggesting that these anti-malware programs are inadequate, then I would have to disagree. There are always exceptions, but by and large, most infections can be removed safely, and any damage done can be repaired without resorting to reformatting and total reinstall.

And I am not against reformatting. I am just against reformatting before exhausting other possibilities first. Not just because it is tossing in the towel, but, as mentioned often, it sets the computer back months, if not years in patches and critical updates, lost data, yadda, yadda - unless you have a current image or backup to recover from. But then you would not be a typical home user." }-

I give up ... :wacko:

But not because I agree with you.

[Tarnak]

-{ Quote: "Well, I don't think we're making any headway here Bill. You're not convincing me, and I'm not convincing you. :)

I don't know if you're on dial-up or DSL or something slow,...

" }-

Well, I am convinced and I will have to agree with Bill Bright, because I am on dial up.

-{ Quote: "
And I am not against reformatting. I am just against reformatting before exhausting other possibilities first. Not just because it is tossing in the towel, but, as mentioned often, it sets the computer back months, if not years in patches and critical updates, lost data, yadda, yadda - unless you have a current image or backup to recover from. But then you would not be a typical home user." }-

P.S. I have never done a reformat, and I have owned two computers, one was a gift which had windows 95 and then updated to XP Pro. The current one was custom made and I installed the OS myself. So, reformatting will always be a last resort.... But, then again, I am not you typical user, home or otherwise. ;D

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "Well, I am convinced and I will have to agree with Bill Bright, because I am on dial up.



P.S. I have never done a reformat, and I have owned two computers, one was a gift which had windows 95 and then updated to XP Pro. The current one was custom made and I installed the OS myself. So, reformatting will always be a last resort.... But, then again, I am not you typical user, home or otherwise. ;D" }-
Yeah, if I was on dial-up I'd definitely have a different view of it. That would be a major undertaking downloading 300+mb of Win updates, and another couple hundred for MS Office.

I know many people who have run the same installed OS for 5 years or more also, and have never reformatted. That's great if you can keep it clean and responsive without issues.

[Tarnak]

-{ Quote: "
I know many people who have run the same installed OS for 5 years or more also, and have never reformatted. That's great if you can keep it clean and responsive without issues." }-

I have learned a lot over the last nine years...e.g.how to go into the registry and find remnants of programs still remaining after their so called uninstall. I don't use the inbuilt System Restore. I prefer to use ERUNT, which I only use as a last resort, if I have (stupidly) dug myself into a hole. ::) I have my data separate to the OS. Best of all on my current computer I have FD-ISR. :)

[noone_particular]

Except for building test systems, I view reformatting as a last resort. So far, I haven't resorted to reformatting to clean up a malware infection or to fix corrupted system files. On one occasion, I would have but the owner couldn't find the disks, so I fought with it for several days instead.

Should the need arise, I kept copies of all the patches and Windows updates, along with all of the drivers and their updates. The only way I can see ever needing them is if the external drive that holds the backups fails at the same time as my internal drives and the CD copies don't work either. There's just too much to install to completely restore an established system to get it back to where it was.
-{ Quote: "I know many people who have run the same installed OS for 5 years or more also, and have never reformatted. That's great if you can keep it clean and responsive without issues." }-
With the right setup and some common sense in its usage, it's entirely possible to keep an OS running at peak performance for many years. Except for updating a few apps, this one has barely changed in the last 4 years.

[Bill_Bright]

No, I'm on cable.

-{ Quote: "Your comment about data makes no sense to me either. You said:

"Sure. Because everyone has a current copy of all their data, right?"

Yes, doesn't everyone?" }-Maybe on your planet.

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "No, I'm on cable.

Maybe on your planet." }-
Peace Bill.... :)

[Bill_Bright]

Good luck.

[HKEY1952]

format c:


HKEY1952

[Bill_Bright]

Unformat C: (http://www.uneraser.com/quest12.htm)

[HKEY1952]

-{ Quote: "Unformat C: (http://www.uneraser.com/quest12.htm)" }-

Active@ UNERASER DEMO (Complete Windows installation package) UNERASER-Demo-Setup.exe
Digatilly Signed = Friday, July 04, 2008 2:18:53 PM

Active@ UNERASER (Windows Console version) UNERASE.exe
Digatilly Signed = Monday, May 14, 2007 2:54:36 PM

Active@ UNERASER (localized file names plugin) unicode.exe
Not Digitally Signed

Active@ UNERASER Web Based Users Guide:
http://www.uneraser.com/manual.htm

Very interesting indeed.....

When deleted entries are found, the utility displays them by name and offers the user an opportunity to save whatever is recoverable to a new location.

In the case of partition damage, the job for the file recovery software is to analyze the surface of the HDD and retrieve clues around structure of the logical data in order to reconstruct
the partition or drive parameters (such as the first sector number, cluster size, file system type, etc.). As this process makes logical connections based on probability,
it creates an entity called a virtual drive. Without any kind of drive structure, no data can be retrieved.

.....yes very interesting indeed.....however.....can not undo the formating its self.

fdisk


HKEY1952

[Bill_Bright]

There are a couple unformat drive (http://www.google.com/search?q=unformat+drive&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLJ_en) programs around, not to be confused with undelete type programs like Recuva (http://www.recuva.com/) from the makers of CCleaner. I think it is safe to say the odds of compete recovery is the same for all recovery programs, and are best if done immediately after the event, in this case a format, and quickly drop to nil as the drive is used and new files get written.

[HKEY1952]

Ctrl + Alt + Delete /End Task


HKEY1952

[1boss1]

I've had this XP machine for 5 1/2 years, it's never been reformatted and it runs faster than a vanilla XP. I've hacked the OS so much i dread the thought of reformatting and starting from scratch.

So, personally i prefer to fix any issues.