Windows 7 Without Internet Explorer

[progress]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/166540/windows_7_without_internet_explorer_microsoft_explains.html

[chrome_sturmen]

Thanks for the link, interesting concept. I heard something about this on Steve Gibson's Security Now podcast. As I understood it upon windows installation, there will be an option as to what browsers you want to install (windows will include several) and which you want set as default. A good move in my opinion, because there is no point in pushing one browser just because it's made by the same company that created the operating system.

[lodore]

Surely in europe OSX should also be forced to ship without safari?
The Iphone comes with Safari only and you arent allowed to create an application that does the same functionality as something that comes with the phone. opera have made a version for the iphone but arent allowed to ship it because apple say you cant...

so surely the EU should sue apple right away and make apple allow other browsers on the iphone at least?

[aigle]

very good point indeed.

[Eice]

-{ Quote: "A good move in my opinion, because there is no point in pushing one browser just because it's made by the same company that created the operating system." }-
Mac OS X comes with Safari as its default browser, which is made by Apple. On Linux, KDE systems typically have Konqueror as the default browser, which again is made by KDE. GNOME's most common default browser, Firefox, isn't made by GNOME itself, but it's still a browser monopoly.

While punishment is overdue for Microsoft's strong-arm monopoly tactics, forcing it to ship an OS without a default browser installed is uncalled for, and is probably going to pose considerable technical and usability problems. Third-party programs that call Trident libraries to perform specific functions now will have no standard platform to base those functions on (do Firefox, Opera, Safari etc provide their layout engines' library functions for calling by external apps?), not to mention that many people reasonably expect an OS to be able to browse the web by default out of the box.

IE7/8 is generally a fine browser, and for users that are aware about the alternatives and are sufficiently knowledgeable and/or motivated to make those choices, Microsoft has never stopped anyone from running 3rd-party browsers on Windows. This new development just forces that choices on people who DON'T want to, or don't know enough to.

[m00nbl00d]

-{ Quote: "Surely in europe OSX should also be forced to ship without safari?
The Iphone comes with Safari only and you arent allowed to create an application that does the same functionality as something that comes with the phone. opera have made a version for the iphone but arent allowed to ship it because apple say you cant...

so surely the EU should sue apple right away and make apple allow other browsers on the iphone at least?" }-

I agree with you. The problem is: Apple does not have the same market share as Microsoft does. And being so, European Commission sees it like Microsoft isn't giving any choice to the competition.

Personally, I'm against this crap. I'd rather see them suing Microsoft for other things, which would be a great thing to all users, everywhere.

What do I and my family care if Windows comes shipped with IE? Lets also rip off Windows Media Player? Windows Defender? UAC? Windows Firewall? Etc?

Should E.C force Apple to release a version of their O.S for other machines than Apple's own? Isn't this though for competition as well? Because, doing this, Apple is saying: Hey, do you like our O.S? Great! Buy our machines!

Why not force Apple to do that, so I can run their O.S, legally, in any machine I want?

Lets kill all Linux variants, and only have the kernel. Why does Linux has to come only with Firefox, and not, for exemple, Opera browser?

Lets only distribute the O.Ss themselves, without any bundled applications. Period. Lets see if more than 98% of users will be happy with it.

This is a joke.

I'd rather see E.C sueing Microsoft for not giving free support to users, both retail and OEM users. Retail paid users pay too much for having to pay for support, and when most of time is some Windows update screwing up things.

That's just an example.

[Eice]

-{ Quote: "Lets only distribute the O.Ss themselves, without any bundled applications. Period. Lets see if more than 98% of users will be happy with it." }-
Good idea. Let's not include file managers as well. Heck, a window manager shouldn't be allowed either, as Microsoft's DWM is dominating other players like Compiz and Metacity. Scrap the interface as well, KDE and GNOME need to be given a chance. So now you get a fresh new computer that boots up, and lets you stare at the blinking cursor at the command prompt - that's assuming it even boots, as you need to make a choice between boot managers first.

Seriously, what were the EU guys thinking?

[lodore]

-{ Quote: "I agree with you. The problem is: Apple does not have the same market share as Microsoft does. And being so, European Commission sees it like Microsoft isn't giving any choice to the competition.

Personally, I'm against this crap. I'd rather see them suing Microsoft for other things, which would be a great thing to all users, everywhere.

What do I and my family care if Windows comes shipped with IE? Lets also rip off Windows Media Player? Windows Defender? UAC? Windows Firewall? Etc?

Should E.C force Apple to release a version of their O.S for other machines than Apple's own? Isn't this though for competition as well? Because, doing this, Apple is saying: Hey, do you like our O.S? Great! Buy our machines!

Why not force Apple to do that, so I can run their O.S, legally, in any machine I want?

Lets kill all Linux variants, and only have the kernel. Why does Linux has to come only with Firefox, and not, for exemple, Opera browser?

Lets only distribute the O.Ss themselves, without any bundled applications. Period. Lets see if more than 98% of users will be happy with it.

This is a joke.

I'd rather see E.C sueing Microsoft for not giving free support to users, both retail and OEM users. Retail paid users pay too much for having to pay for support, and when most of time is some Windows update screwing up things.

That's just an example." }-
Hello m00nbl00d,
btw Gnome do have there own browser called Epiphany.
most linux distros simply choose to have firefox.
as default Debian Lenny as desktop installs Epiphany and iceweasel (firefox without firefox logos and trademarks)
all linux distros could ship without any browser. the user simply uses the package manager to install there favourite browser.

surely all windows 7 versions in all countries could ship without a browser?
simply ship a second disc with all the main browsers and let the consumer choose which browser they wish to use.
on the same disc have media players,messenger programs,office programs etc.
choice is good.

Maybe this move will mean more websites will work properly on other browsers such as opera,firefox,chrome etc.

[Eice]

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSLC48908520090612

Looks like Opera is beginning to whine now that it realizes its brilliant game plan - to piggyback copies of Opera on Windows - has been upstaged.

Well played, Microsoft. ;D

[aigle]

-{ Quote: "Good idea. Let's not include file managers as well. Heck, a window manager shouldn't be allowed either, as Microsoft's DWM is dominating other players like Compiz and Metacity. Scrap the interface as well, KDE and GNOME need to be given a chance. So now you get a fresh new computer that boots up, and lets you stare at the blinking cursor at the command prompt - that's assuming it even boots, as you need to make a choice between boot managers first.

Seriously, what were the EU guys thinking?" }-
These guys are just stupid IMO.

[aigle]

-{ Quote: "surely all windows 7 versions in all countries could ship without a browser?
simply ship a second disc with all the main browsers and let the consumer choose which browser they wish to use.
on the same disc have media players,messenger programs,office programs etc.
choice is good.
" }-People want to have an OS where they can browse out of the box. This is a very bad decision indeed.

[lodore]

I want to browse OOTB but with a decent browser lol.

[aigle]

IE7 and 8 are decent no doubt.

[Osaban]

I'm personally a MS supporter in just about anything they do. Expensive, yes, but quality has a price. On the other hand I completely agree on the fact that when one buys a new computer there should be the widest choices available in order to give everyone a chance to launch their product, and an opportunity to choose from or be advised about the various possibilities available. By the way my main browser is Chrome, so I couldn't care less about IE8 being bundled with Win7 or not.

[Eice]

-{ Quote: "surely all windows 7 versions in all countries could ship without a browser?
simply ship a second disc with all the main browsers and let the consumer choose which browser they wish to use.
on the same disc have media players,messenger programs,office programs etc.
choice is good." }-
There's a reason why Ubuntu is so much more popular than Arch.

Bash the concept all you like, but fact is, people like bundled.

[Creer]

-{ Quote: "People want to have an OS where they can browse out of the box. This is a very bad decision indeed." }-
Yes I agree here. Windows is MS product and they have full rights to put inside their own products.
Maybe soon EU tell MS to put gimp instead of paint, open office instead of WordPad, Notepad++ instead of MS Notepad... etc. It's odd... :thumbd: :dry:

[demonon]

I personally think the EU shouldn't bother with economy, but now I am getting political.

I just think the average user will have even more troubles now.

[Minimax2000]

Microsoft has the monopoly in OSes and thus should have the right to bundle these with their own products (Browser). You are still free to download the browser of your choice afterwards. One cannot expect them to include products of competitors as well.

It would be much more effective to make sure customers get more alternatives of non-Microsoft OS (Linux derivates) offered for every new PC.

Also the number of PCs having a Windows OS preinstalled should be limited.

[TOMxEU]

What bothers me, is there going to be a difference between IE8 installed from setup DVD and IE8 integrated into the system? Stability or functionality issues?

[funkydude]

A friend of mine just made a very good point. Say w7 ships on PC's without a browser, how would a beginner download a browser to use? ;D

[TOMxEU]

IE8 setup will be on setup DVD and also available via Windows Update, but the problem is, that common users will not be able to instal it, it is just too difficult. ::)

[aigle]

-{ Quote: "A friend of mine just made a very good point. Say w7 ships on PC's without a browser, how would a beginner download a browser to use? ;D" }-
Download it manually. ;) ;D

[TOMxEU]

EU officially responds (http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=MEMO/09/272&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en) and it is ridiculous as allways. If I were MS, I would propose not to sell W7 in EU at all, so people would have to order it elsewhere. :dry:

-{ Quote: "the Commission has suggested that consumers should be offered a choice of browser, not that Windows should be supplied without a browser at all." }-

[progress]

Microsoft offers choice of browsers in Windows 7 to satisfy EU (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9135894/Microsoft_offers_choice_of_browsers_in_Windows_7_to_satisfy_EU) :thumb:

[dw426]

-{ Quote: "Microsoft offers choice of browsers in Windows 7 to satisfy EU (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9135894/Microsoft_offers_choice_of_browsers_in_Windows_7_to_satisfy_EU) :thumb:" }-

What started out as a legitimate concern about competition has turned into one of the most stupid and blatant bullying scenes I have ever witnessed in my life. I wish what the EU was doing was a crime. You give me one good reason why Microsoft should not only have to remove Windows Media Player, disable or remove their browser, but now also have to offer the competitions software on their own damned operating system. At what point in time has Microsoft EVER not allowed anyone to wander over to VLC's website, Opera's website, and so forth, and download a competing product?

All the EU is doing is milking the situation for PR reasons, if they were cornered by anyone with a brain and asked how Microsoft was being anti-competitive now, they'd all fall over dead from the stress of trying to give an actual answer...if they bothered trying at all. The ONLY thing Microsoft has ever done was to get in with software/hardware makers and unfairly make sure products either worked best with Windows or only work with Windows. THAT is their sin, the rest of this crap is pure bullying.

[Osaban]

-{ Quote: "What started out as a legitimate concern about competition has turned into one of the most stupid and blatant bullying scenes I have ever witnessed in my life. I wish what the EU was doing was a crime. You give me one good reason why Microsoft should not only have to remove Windows Media Player, disable or remove their browser, but now also have to offer the competitions software on their own damned operating system. At what point in time has Microsoft EVER not allowed anyone to wander over to VLC's website, Opera's website, and so forth, and download a competing product?

All the EU is doing is milking the situation for PR reasons, if they were cornered by anyone with a brain and asked how Microsoft was being anti-competitive now, they'd all fall over dead from the stress of trying to give an actual answer...if they bothered trying at all. The ONLY thing Microsoft has ever done was to get in with software/hardware makers and unfairly make sure products either worked best with Windows or only work with Windows. THAT is their sin, the rest of this crap is pure bullying." }-

I agree that the EU's anti-trust regulators are interfering to an extent that is becoming dictatorial in their attitudes. There is an incredible amount of money involved, and MS whether they fight or acquiesce they will still make a fortune. IMO, MS realizes that by agreeing to the rules imposed by the EU, they may lose a bit but they are improving their corporate public image immensely, which in the end will compensate for any perceived wrong doing.

The way I see it, it is up to computer manufacturers to make sure there is a fair choice of programs from different companies bundled with the OS on a new computer. The possibility to install or uninstall completely IE7-8 on Windows 7, from a security point of view is preferable (Experts often reported that the IE being so integrated in the OS has always been a source of vulnerabilities).

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "What started out as a legitimate concern about competition has turned into one of the most stupid and blatant bullying scenes I have ever witnessed in my life. I wish what the EU was doing was a crime. You give me one good reason why Microsoft should not only have to remove Windows Media Player, disable or remove their browser, but now also have to offer the competitions software on their own damned operating system. At what point in time has Microsoft EVER not allowed anyone to wander over to VLC's website, Opera's website, and so forth, and download a competing product?

All the EU is doing is milking the situation for PR reasons, if they were cornered by anyone with a brain and asked how Microsoft was being anti-competitive now, they'd all fall over dead from the stress of trying to give an actual answer...if they bothered trying at all. The ONLY thing Microsoft has ever done was to get in with software/hardware makers and unfairly make sure products either worked best with Windows or only work with Windows. THAT is their sin, the rest of this crap is pure bullying." }-

Gotta agree with you... I think it's all pretty idiotic myself.

[Eice]

For me, it's come to the point of utter disgust - I'll be removing Opera from my machines, and dissuaging everyone I know from using it.

Opera is resorting to this stupidity in the hopes that whatever bad PR they receive from it will be offset by the benefits of having the EU force Microsoft to advertise their product for them. I, for one, will be doing my best to see that does not happen.

[funkydude]

-{ Quote: "
Opera is resorting to this stupidity in the hopes that whatever bad PR they receive from it will be offset by the benefits of having the EU force Microsoft to advertise their product for them. I, for one, will be doing my best to see that does not happen." }-

If you think Opera is the only thing behind this you need your eyes checked buddy. It started long ago, Opera only recently started pushing it. Your actions are pathetic.

[dw426]

-{ Quote: "If you think Opera is the only thing behind this you need your eyes checked buddy. It started long ago, Opera only recently started pushing it. Your actions are pathetic." }-

I don't recall anyone saying Opera or any other entity was alone in starting this crap. Try reading before calling people out? In any case, Opera is in this for one reason and one reason alone, to gain ground in the browser wars. If you truly think they are in this for the "good of the people", then perhaps you need to go back to the beginning of all this and also do a little reading about marketing. Make absolutely no mistake, there are no "good guys" in this, this is all out war on Microsoft. To think otherwise would be naive at best.

[funkydude]

-{ Quote: "I don't recall anyone saying Opera or any other entity was alone in starting this crap. Try reading before calling people out?" }-

I was making a point not stating a fact, try comprehending things better before calling people out. Let me explain it to you:

Going on an Opera rage rant because of this is about as mature as 1 day old cheese.

[dw426]

-{ Quote: "I was making a point not stating a fact, try comprehending things better before calling people out. Let me explain it to you:

Going on an Opera rage rant because of this is about as mature as 1 day old cheese." }-

I figure I'm pretty good at comprehension, "you need your eyes checked buddy", "your actions are pathetic"...you called the guy out and you know it, end of story. Regardless, the nasty truth is Opera is only doing this to gain ground....won't they be shocked when the competing browser of choice Microsoft adds in is Firefox...and it WILL be Firefox, believe me. Chrome MIGHT make it on there, but Opera and any others? Forget about it, not happening. They're going to go with the second most popular and well-known competition and Opera isn't it.

I would imagine the exclusion of Opera is not only for that reason but also as a big middle finger from Microsoft for doing what they are doing right now. Mozilla on the other hand will benefit greatly, not only in regards to exposure, but I'm sure there will be some financial benefits as well. In fact, Mozilla is likely to come out as the big winner in this whole ugly mess.

[progress]

-{ Quote: "They're going to go with the second most popular and well-known competition and Opera isn't it.
" }-

I hope MS will add Firefox and Chrome - as mentioned before: That's enough (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=1490627&postcount=1) ::)

[dw426]

-{ Quote: "I hope MS will add Firefox and Chrome - as mentioned before: That's enough (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=1490627&postcount=1) ::)" }-

Well, I put a big "might" in my post because, at least for right now, Chrome has about the same percentage of users as Opera (Stateside that is), meaning hardly anyone. I expect that to change once extensions come into play for Chrome. Opera, I'm sorry, I don't expect any change anytime soon. I'm heading off-topic though. I think Microsoft doing this voluntarily will, at least in the short term, win them some support from just about everyone except the EU. They won't be happy until Microsoft ceases to exist, which, contrary to wishful thinkers, would be a horrendous thing to happen if you really sit down, put your pitchforks and torches away, and think it through.

[Eice]

-{ Quote: "If you think Opera is the only thing behind this you need your eyes checked buddy. It started long ago, Opera only recently started pushing it. Your actions are pathetic." }-
Maybe not, but they're ones being so blatantly shameless about it.

I don't see what's so pathetic about rejecting a company that resorts to crybabying to force Microsoft to advertise its product that nobody wants otherwise. The thing is, Opera knows it stands to gain from its shameful behavior. Granted, they probably will, but I don't see any reason why I should make it any easier for them to benefit from such cowardice.

[funkydude]

Well I'm not bothered by it they have every right to complain. But in a perfect world, I would imagine a grid-box during w7 installation which would have a list of browsers like:

-{ Quote: "Would you like to install a web browser?

Internet Explorer
Mozilla Firefox
Opera
Chrome
Safari



No I do not wish to install a browser
" }-

[Coolio10]

I bet everyone against the EU lives in the Americas :). It's all to do with different attitudes. America believes in bigger is better (monopolies). EU on the other hand believes in equality among the smaller and bigger companies even when the bigger company should be in charge of its own product. I guess each belief can be good and bad. EU is limiting the growth of the bigger companies product and improving the growth of the smaller companies product.

I also agree with funkydude. Eice actually atacked a specific browser. Opera did not start this, their only supporting it. I believe Opera is the only major browser developed in the EU which is probably why it is getting attacked by those who hate this plan.

[dw426]

-{ Quote: "Well I'm not bothered by it they have every right to complain. But in a perfect world, I would imagine a grid-box during w7 installation which would have a list of browsers like:" }-

Funky, come on, I seriously want just ONE good reason why they should have to do this. Let's say you come up with an OS or some other software, why in the world should you be forced or told you should add in a competitors product to your own? You've spent time and money on this product, and are proud of it, and now you're told to include your competitors product with yours. Please, explain how that is fair and give an example outside of the Microsoft situation where it would make one bit of sense.

Can I blame Opera for what they are doing? In a marketing sense, no, I can't. However, them doing it under the banner of antitrust, I certainly can and do blame them. It's wrong, plain and simple. I honestly think the media coverage, bad PR, and, what's turned into senseless, unreasonable hate for Microsoft, has blinded people as to what is really going on in this antitrust case now. It's moved beyond antitrust, it's now about money and who's going to get it.

[dw426]

-{ Quote: "I bet everyone against the EU lives in the Americas :). It's all to do with different attitudes. America believes in bigger is better (monopolies). EU on the other hand believes in equality among the smaller and bigger companies even when the bigger company should be in charge of its own product. I guess each belief can be good and bad. EU is limiting the growth of the bigger companies product and improving the growth of the smaller companies product.

I also agree with funkydude. Eice actually atacked a specific browser. Opera did not start this, their only supporting it. I believe Opera is the only major browser developed in the EU which is probably why it is getting attacked by those who hate this plan." }-

I do live in America, but I sure don't believe bigger is better. I'm under the affect of a monopoly regarding my cable ISP, trust me, I don't enjoy it. Americans DON'T like monopolies, so I'm not sure where you got that from. We can be greedy little souls, no point in arguing about that, but we like choices just as much as you guys across the pond and elsewhere do.

Here's the problem with your thought on improving the growth of smaller companies: Who is it improving? Microsoft is basically all about Windows the OS. Besides Linux, in that area, who else exactly is going to grow? Linux is in its situation due to its own issues, not because Windows exists. As far as browsers, I refer you back to my earlier post about the fact that absolutely nothing stops anyone from surfing to Mozilla or even Opera, Safari, or Google and downloading their browsers.

So what if IE is included with Windows? It's Microsoft's product just as Windows is, why do they not have the right to include it and their media player? Again, all I'm seeing is blindness to the real issue, intentional or otherwise. No one, no one else but browser developers have anything to gain out of all this. There is no viable "other OS" waiting in the wings to take over (besides Linux). As far as the comment about Opera being attacked....err, have you seen Mozilla, Apple, or Google whooping and hollering about it AS MUCH as Opera? Opera is the one getting the media attention, so, they are fair game.

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "I bet everyone against the EU lives in the Americas :). It's all to do with different attitudes. America believes in bigger is better (monopolies). EU on the other hand believes in equality among the smaller and bigger companies even when the bigger company should be in charge of its own product. " }-
This is nonsense.... Nobody likes a monopoly and lack of choices, American or otherwise. I have to agree again with dw426. Why shouldn't MS have a browser and media player with their OS? This is all ridiculous. Nobody is stopping you from installing and using any browser (or any other software) you like. Let's get real people.....

[lodore]

I hate monopolies. with graphics cards for example you only have two choices which means they can be quite expensive.
most people dont relise there is a choice with browsers they simply use what comes with the system or use what a friend reccomends which is genrally firefox. I used to use IE all the time but then someone reccomended firefox so i tryed it. at the time was 1.5 and it crashed tons then i found opera and liked it more and haveused it ever since.

[Eice]

-{ Quote: "I also agree with funkydude. Eice actually atacked a specific browser. Opera did not start this, their only supporting it. I believe Opera is the only major browser developed in the EU which is probably why it is getting attacked by those who hate this plan." }-
You missed THE key reason why Opera is targeted: that they're doing all they can to associate themselves with the case, arguing constantly with a fine blend of stupidity and shamelessness for Microsoft to provide them with free advertising. They've gone to great lengths - much, MUCH more than Mozilla/Apple/Google - to make sure the "Hey guys, I'm a whining ****head!" badge is pinned squarely on them, I guess it's such a great surprise when people take them up on their offer.

[Windchild]

-{ Quote: "I bet everyone against the EU lives in the Americas :). It's all to do with different attitudes. " }-

I live in the European Union, and I hate the EU. It's one of the least democratic systems in the entire civilized world, and basically a way for the bigger European countries (or more accurately their leaders) like France, Germany, Italy and Great Britain, to rule over the whole of Europe without having to fight wars to get that kind of power (wars didn't work that well when they were last tried).

And in this particular case, the EU is just being retarded. Probably just ~Snip~ by the fact that Microsoft is American, and trying to bully some dollars out of MS. Dollars that can then be used to pay outrageous salaries to EU bureaucrats and to further the great EU goal of a single multicultural "European people" where no-one is really French, Italian, Swedish or German, but just somehow "European." A world where European nation-states cease to properly exist and everyone can just hail the EU all day long, kind of like what the Roman Empire of the ancient days was like, only with even more corruption. Basically a really pathetic attempt at copying the United States, but with far more sinister goals.

Wow, that was a nice rant from me. Sorry, guys. ;D

As I was saying, and as others have said, there's no reason why MS shouldn't be allowed to include their own browser in their own operating system. That is just ridiculous. The user benefits from the browser being there - and if it can be uninstalled, even better. Nobody in their right mind wants to go back to the days where the OS just came with a CLI and practically nothing more - no file managers, no network stacks, no nothing. I'm an Opera user, but Opera is really making an ass out of itself with this issue. If they want more users, they should spend more effort on marketing and make a more appealing product.

[Fly]

-{ Quote: "Well I'm not bothered by it they have every right to complain. But in a perfect world, I would imagine a grid-box during w7 installation which would have a list of browsers like:" }-

I'd prefer that they would remove Firefox, Opera and replace it by Lynx, K-Meleon.

And as an extra, they can add Arachne. :P

We don't want to give Firefox preferential treatment just because they have a huge market share, do we ?

[Hiker]

-{ Quote: "Microsoft has the monopoly in OSes and thus should have the right to bundle these with their own products (Browser). You are still free to download the browser of your choice afterwards. One cannot expect them to include products of competitors as well.
" }-

What I'm not sure I understand is if Win7 is shipped without a browser, how is one going to be downloaded? :wacko:

Also, is one chooses FF, Opera or Chrome, what about Win7 updates?

[Osaban]

-{ Quote: "I live in the European Union, and I hate the EU. It's one of the least democratic systems in the entire civilized world, and basically a way for the bigger European countries (or more accurately their leaders) like France, Germany, Italy and Great Britain, to rule over the whole of Europe without having to fight wars to get that kind of power (wars didn't work that well when they were last tried).

And in this particular case, the EU is just being retarded. Probably just ~Snip~ by the fact that Microsoft is American, and trying to bully some dollars out of MS. Dollars that can then be used to pay outrageous salaries to EU bureaucrats and to further the great EU goal of a single multicultural "European people" where no-one is really French, Italian, Swedish or German, but just somehow "European." A world where European nation-states cease to properly exist and everyone can just hail the EU all day long, kind of like what the Roman Empire of the ancient days was like, only with even more corruption. Basically a really pathetic attempt at copying the United States, but with far more sinister goals.

Wow, that was a nice rant from me. Sorry, guys. ;D

" }-

You're not sorry at all, using a security forum to vent your nationalistic theories makes you a pathetic figure.

[Minimax2000]

If IE were not to be shipped it would be a different matter then. Provided IE is shipped with Win7 one can still download the browser of preference.

As far as I know Win 7 won't be shipped without a browser in Europe. MS suggested offering a download choice of popular browsers and the EU is positive about this. That is a concession to the EU and MS backed down.

[Windchild]

-{ Quote: "You're not sorry at all, using a security forum to vent your nationalistic theories makes you a pathetic figure." }-

Thanks for the compliment, as well as telling me how I think or feel. :) What "nationalistic theories", though? My "theory" is that right now, there are several independent nations in Europe (fact), that originally joined the European Union as an economic and somewhat political union (fact), but now the EU is moving more and more towards a federation of states (fact) and becoming more and more distant from the mere economic union between independent states that it was in the beginning (fact). One need look no further than the EU strong-arming Ireland over the constitution vote to see what's really going on. So, where's the theory?

I like the idea of independent states. I think it's great that people are free to choose their own leaders and own policy. I don't like the idea of some massive union of nations where democracy is taken farther and farther away from the individual voters, who live in very different areas of the world and have very different needs. I don't like the artificial idea that there are no differences between, say, the needs of someone living in the Arctic and someone living at the shore of the Mediterranean. The climate, the geography - everything is different. The same laws, for example with regard to agriculture, cannot work in areas so different from each other. That's why people should govern themselves locally, without any supreme union telling them what to do from the other side of the continent. But hey, everyone is free to believe what they wish.

With regard to Microsoft, the EU is being a bully, no doubt about that. They're playing by two rules. Just because Microsoft happens to be large and in a commanding market position, they apply different rules to Microsoft than, say, Apple. According to the EU, MS is doing harm to the competition by including their own browser in their own OS. But when Apple includes Safari, that's perfectly okay, according to the EU. How nice! How about removing Windows Firewall, next, since it's so unfair to firewall software vendors? Or how about removing the File Manager, since it just destroys competition in that field of software? How about text editors? Fortunately, MS seems to be polishing their shield and acting like the nice guy, and giving into even the most outrageous EU demands.

And in actual fact, I am sorry for the off topic. I did not start it, though. I merely replied to the comment of another member that stated that everyone who is against EU must be an American (that's a pretty biased thing to say, really).

[progress]

-{ Quote: "Provided IE is shipped with Win7 one can still download the browser of preference.
" }-

Hello neighbour, read this:

-{ Quote: "
Microsoft proposed including a "ballot screen" that would make it easy for Windows 7 users to install a competing Web browser, set it as the default and disable Internet Explorer (IE), the European Commission said in a statement.
" }-

:)

[Eice]

More whining from Opera.
-{ Quote: "Opera, Microsoft differ over icons in Windows EU ballot proposal (http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Opera_Microsoft_differ_over_browser_icons_in_Windows_ballot_proposal_51792607.html)

Microsoft late last week released the full text of its browser "ballot" proposal for Windows in Europe, explaining how it would implement the plan for Windows XP, Vista and 7, if the proposal is approved by European antitrust regulators. Based on earlier comments by Opera Software, which originally brought the antitrust complaint, one item that stands out as potentially controversial is the way Microsoft is proposing to display the different browser choices in the ballot.

The Microsoft proposal says the ballot screen will "in a horizontal line and in an unbiased way display icons of and basic identifying information on the web browsers." Microsoft submitted the screenshot above as a proposed implementation of the ballot concept.

But Opera's chief technology officer, Hakon Wium Lie, suggested in an interview Friday that displaying logos or icons could result in a natural bias toward Internet Explorer. The theory: The inclusion of Internet Explorer in Windows has made the Microsoft browser so ubiquitous that people see the IE logo as a generic icon for accessing the Internet.

"We're not sure about the use of logos," Lie said. "The blue 'e' has become so associated with the Internet in general, due to the bundling with Windows. We think using the blue "e" might not be such a good idea."

Overall, however, Lie said last week that Opera was pleased with the proposal. So it looks this is more likely to be a negotiating point than a roadblock. The European Commission said last week that it welcomed the Microsoft proposal, promising to "investigate its practical effectiveness in terms of ensuring genuine consumer choice."" }-

[funkydude]

-{ Quote: "The theory: The inclusion of Internet Explorer in Windows has made the Microsoft browser so ubiquitous that people see the IE logo as a generic icon for accessing the Internet." }-

Truer words are rarely spoken.

[Eice]

-{ Quote: "Truer words are rarely spoken." }-
Yes, not only does Microsoft need to provide free advertising to Opera, they also need to destroy their own brand recognition so that Opera gets a "fair" playing field. Hear, hear.

I guess this world is never short of idiots who rush to prove how stupid they are.

[dw426]

-{ Quote: "Yes, not only does Microsoft need to provide free advertising to Opera, they also need to destroy their own brand recognition so that Opera gets a "fair" playing field. Hear, hear.

I guess this world is never short of idiots who rush to prove how stupid they are." }-

I am behind you all the way. Opera just gets more and more pathetic every time they open their mouth. They aren't wanting a "fair shake", they're wanting the spotlight. Look, how about MS just add every browser available, fully installed and ready to click on, that way it'll end this competition bullcrap....but don't go blaming MS for these browsers when vulnerabilities or functional problems are found. You wanted competing products, you got them.

Oh, while we're at it, let's rename Internet Explorer to just "Browser" or some other cute little name since, according to Opera, the population of the world is so damned stupid and/or brain-dead that they think "Hey, I guess if it says "Internet Explorer", I have to use it to get online because none of these other icons say anything about exploring the internet"...I'd like to have a moment of silence now for the tragic loss of the IQ level of the people that run Opera. Please, remove your hats and bow your heads.

[progress]

Eice, you will like this (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=249212) thread :D

[Windchild]

Oh great. Opera seems hell-bent on making themselves look like total asses. :( Now they've got problems with the IE logo? ~Snip~ what about the Google logo, then? A lot of people think that Google = the Internet. Oh, oh, and what about IE being first on that horizontal list? People in western countries read from left to right, and IE is right there in the first spot on the left! That is so wrooooong! Maybe Opera should get the first spot, and IE the last. Of course, without the IE logo, because the logo is unfair.

I swear, if Opera starts acting any more retarded than this, it'll endanger my physical health.

[dw426]

-{ Quote: "Oh great. Opera seems hell-bent on making themselves look like total asses. :( Now they've got problems with the IE logo? ~Snip~ what about the Google logo, then? A lot of people think that Google = the Internet. Oh, oh, and what about IE being first on that horizontal list? People in western countries read from left to right, and IE is right there in the first spot on the left! That is so wrooooong! Maybe Opera should get the first spot, and IE the last. Of course, without the IE logo, because the logo is unfair.

I swear, if Opera starts acting any more retarded than this, it'll endanger my physical health." }-

Lol, you made a great point regarding Google. So far, no one is going after them hardcore because so many think that searching the net=Google. I don't see Yahoo running and crying to the media, putting out almost daily bitch-fests to the AP, tech magazines and blogs. I also don't see the EU going after them for putting out their own products. I mean, Google has a browser, web apps, a search engine, email, you name it...and a POSSIBLE operating system (I really am going to be interested in whether the "anti-trust" boys make a move on that....I doubt it).

Hell, there aren't all that many people going after them for their privacy practices. They're basically skating along unscathed. But, oh god forbid Microsoft bundles its own software with its OS, god know, we can't have that, that's just plain unfair. The EU would probably try to destroy Windows as a whole if they could get anyone else relevant besides Apple to make enough of a stink.

[progress]

Opera on the 5th place? That's not fair! :shifty:

[dw426]

-{ Quote: "Opera on the 5th place? That's not fair! :shifty:" }-

With all their bitching I think it's quite nice of MS to even bother putting them up there, though I'm disappointed they did, they don't deserve it. One thing catches my eye...Safari? I wasn't expecting that one. Chrome is somewhat surprising given that Opera has more users than it does, but, it is what it is. So the choices are two browsers everyone knows about (IE and Firefox), two browsers that barely have a user base (Opera and Chrome), and one from Microsoft's original competition.

On a good note, maybe this will shut Opera up and they'll remove their pacifier and get a fresh diaper.

[JRViejo]

-{ Quote: "One thing catches my eye...Safari? I wasn't expecting that one. Chrome is somewhat surprising given that Opera has more users than it does, but, it is what it is." }-
dw426, according to the w3schools.com Browser Statistics (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp), Safari is sandwiched between Chrome and Opera.

BTW, their OS Platform Statistics (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp) shows Win7 gaining strength every month. Not bad for a BETA!

[twl845]

-{ Quote: "Lol, you made a great point regarding Google. So far, no one is going after them hardcore because so many think that searching the net=Google. I don't see Yahoo running and crying to the media, putting out almost daily bitch-fests to the AP, tech magazines and blogs. I also don't see the EU going after them for putting out their own products. I mean, Google has a browser, web apps, a search engine, email, you name it...and a POSSIBLE operating system (I really am going to be interested in whether the "anti-trust" boys make a move on that....I doubt it).

Hell, there aren't all that many people going after them for their privacy practices. They're basically skating along unscathed. But, oh god forbid Microsoft bundles its own software with its OS, god know, we can't have that, that's just plain unfair. The EU would probably try to destroy Windows as a whole if they could get anyone else relevant besides Apple to make enough of a stink." }-
Speaking of Google Chrome, I have found a good use for its speed. I made it my default browser so when I'm reading e-mail and have to click a url, it comes right up, rather than have to wait for FF to load. When I boot up and decide to surf the web, I use my FF.
As for MS bundling its own browser with its OS, I guess that would be the logical thing to do.

[Pinga]

-{ Quote: "I personally think the EU shouldn't bother with economy" }-
That's why the EU was founded in the first place :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community

[Fly]

-{ Quote: "That's why the EU was founded in the first place :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community" }-

The common market. Started in 1993 if my memory is accurate.

In the early years, it was all about free trade, mandating some standards to improve competition.

Now, it's political. :thumbd:

[progress]

-{ Quote: "
I guess this world is never short of idiots who rush to prove how stupid they are." }-

Now it's Mozilla: Read more (http://www.neowin.net/news/main/09/10/15/mozilla-wants-windows-ballot-screen-changed)

Mozilla proposed a change today that would change the current ordering of the browsers, currently in alphabetical order of manufacture, to order of market share, with the exception of IE.

Nice try ;D

[Fly]

-{ Quote: "Now it's Mozilla: Read more (http://www.neowin.net/news/main/09/10/15/mozilla-wants-windows-ballot-screen-changed)

Mozilla proposed a change today that would change the current ordering of the browsers, currently in alphabetical order of manufacture, to order of market share, with the exception of IE.

Nice try ;D" }-

Why would they do that ?
It's hard to believe they are stupid enough to think that this proposal would be adopted ? :blink:

[c2d]

I can't believe that they are making such a big deal about the order
It's so irrelevant

[Windchild]

-{ Quote: "Now it's Mozilla: Read more (http://www.neowin.net/news/main/09/10/15/mozilla-wants-windows-ballot-screen-changed)

Mozilla proposed a change today that would change the current ordering of the browsers, currently in alphabetical order of manufacture, to order of market share, with the exception of IE.

Nice try ;D" }-

Apparently Mozilla are a bunch of... well, I'll leave that word out, too. As I predicted, someone would start whining about the order of the browsers in the list. "Surprisingly", Mozilla wants "order by market share, except that Firefox should be first and market leader IE somewhere else". LOL. That is blatantly ridiculous. ;D Random order is also stupid. People expect order. If the order changes all the time, it makes no sense. Either alphabetical order, or order by market share with no exceptions to make Mozilla look better is what is needed. I would go for order by market share.

[softtouch]

I just thought, how the hell do I download FireFox with my new PC if there's no web browser?

[firzen771]

-{ Quote: "I just thought, how the hell do I download FireFox with my new PC if there's no web browser?" }-

good question, guess ull need to have a UBS drive and put it on there ahead of time ;D

[c2d]

-{ Quote: "I just thought, how the hell do I download FireFox with my new PC if there's no web browser?" }-


You can use internet without any web browser.
Just follow these steps-

1. Open a notepad or Calculator or Paint
2. Go to the Help section and Click Help Topics.
3. After the New Window Comes, Left Click on the icon in the top left corner.

213182

213180

213181

[firzen771]

-{ Quote: "You can use internet without any web browser.
Just follow these steps-

1. Open a notepad or Calculator or Paint
2. Go to the Help section and Click Help Topics.
3. After the New Window Comes, Left Click on the icon in the top left corner.

213182

213180

213181" }-

seems like an awful lot of effort for something so simple, plus i was reading that its up the manufacturer discretion what browser they install, so u WILL have a browser at least :)

[softtouch]

-{ Quote: "You can use internet without any web browser.
Just follow these steps-

1. Open a notepad or Calculator or Paint
2. Go to the Help section and Click Help Topics.
3. After the New Window Comes, Left Click on the icon in the top left corner.

213182

213180

213181" }-


Yes, but how the the "normal" user who just got his PC and want to browse know about that?

[twl845]

Yeah, that's a lot easier than clicking my FF icon. ;D

[progress]

-{ Quote: "According to Nelie Kroes, European Commissioner for Competition Policy, the ballot screen will include the twelve most popular browsers in the EU.
" }-

:wacko:

Read more ... (http://www.downloadsquad.com/2009/10/07/eu-approves-microsofts-browser-ballot-screen-for-5-year-stint/) :)