Piratebay offering VPN

[scrty001]

what do you think of this? http://ipredator.se/

they haven't released it yet.. says wednesday they will start accepting new accounts.

they mention they don't log although that's not the only issue.. right.. it depends on how their system is setup, and how secure their network is?

would you trust them to not keep logs?

[dw426]

{QUOTE-> what do you think of this? http://ipredator.se/

they haven't released it yet.. says wednesday they will start accepting new accounts.

they mention they don't log although that's not the only issue.. right.. it depends on how their system is setup, and how secure their network is?

would you trust them to not keep logs? <-QUOTE}

After this last court case, I trust neither them nor their network, and I'm sure as heck not going to allow them access to my financial data. I don't trust they won't keep some logs, it doesn't take much to scare them into complying with authorities. In fact, none of the above matters much because I don't see this service lasting very long. It will constantly be under attack at best, and shut down by authorities at worst. Just my opinion, but time is going to tell.

[SteveTX]

It will almost certainly just be a clone of Relakks: 1-hop, sweden, oversold, slow, logs, full data retention, leaky, zero anonymity. I am looking forward to seeing it.

[LockBox]

I mentioned this 10 minutes before this thread started in a posting I made in the 'privacy general' subforum. I mentioned that I have read where the waiting list is HUGE because of the Swedish stuff going on. That doesn't mean anything of course, except that there's a lot of people seemingly willing to trust them. I think it's only fair to wait and see the offering before making any assumptions.

[dw426]

{QUOTE-> I mentioned this 10 minutes before this thread started in a posting I made in the 'privacy general' subforum. I mentioned that I have read where the waiting list is HUGE because of the Swedish stuff going on. That doesn't mean anything of course, except that there's a lot of people seemingly willing to trust them. I think it's only fair to wait and see the offering before making any assumptions. <-QUOTE}

I agree it's fair to see them first, it's just very difficult for me to put trust in people that were very quick to point fingers at their users when the kitchen got a wee bit too hot for them, to suddenly decide to put out a vpn service. Even had they not done that, with the attention they have already gotten and a whole lot of eyes set on them, a worldwide-known P2P service offering VPN service is doing nothing short of wearing a t-shirt with neon lights attached spelling out "Look at me!".

You're right, we should wait and see, but I smell trouble coming.

[caspian]

I would be concerned that part of some kind of deal that they made with authorities that this may be something other than what it seems.

[Searching_ _ _]

{QUOTE-> I am looking forward to seeing it. <-QUOTE}
Maybe Deanonymize it?

The masses will just shift who they get their data from.
Pirate bay will wane, while "some other super share" will become the chosen.
Just like Napster was the one in the 90's.

I wonder if any of the pro-copyright camp owns any of the torrent engines?
A secret way to battle infringement.

[dw426]

{QUOTE-> Maybe Deanonymize it?

The masses will just shift who they get their data from.
Pirate bay will wane, while "some other super share" will become the chosen.
Just like Napster was the one in the 90's.

I wonder if any of the pro-copyright camp owns any of the torrent engines?
A secret way to battle infringement. <-QUOTE}

There are so many small "private" websites and engines out there that's entirely possible. Torrent sites/engines have been infiltrated before, and they will again. I see PB's days being numbered, but how many days I have no way of knowing. Certainly fewer than before this last court case.

@Caspian: Would I consider them setting a "trap" with their VPN service something they might do? Yeah, honestly I would. Do I think it's the case here? No, but I could be very wrong.

[emmpe]

{QUOTE-> says wednesday they will start accepting new accounts.

<-QUOTE}

That's Wednesday March 25 - that's why they refer to waffles (Swedish tradition). I signed up for "beta invite" as soon as I learned about it, but I haven't heard anything yet. It's quite possible that Ipredator may serve to confuse the Swedish **AA agents for some time. Alternatively, for Swedes, Danes, Norwegians and Finns (and anybody else who understands Swedish) there's the Mullvad VPN - I've been running it overnight now and at least it seems stable. A 1 hop tunnel will be sufficient to ward off FRA and most IPRED hunters, I suppose, but there may be other doubts about the thing.

[CaixFang]

Wired Article June 15 (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/ipredator/)


Anyone with thoughts? Anyone tried them out yet? Steve, have you had a chance (or xB) to examine their service and see what it is all about?

I havent looked much into them, a buddy just sent me the link, I am busy testing 2 providers now, and throwing a 3rd in would kill my ability to actually get some work done too!

[SteveTX]

Sweden performs connection logging and data retention. ThePirateBay doesn't need to keep any logs because their uplink will do so. Doesn't really matter, there is a lot to look at when it is released. Need to see it to make further comment.

[box750]

{QUOTE-> It will almost certainly just be a clone of Relakks: 1-hop, sweden, oversold, slow, logs, full data retention, leaky, zero anonymity. I am looking forward to seeing it. <-QUOTE}

I have used Relakks in the past, and they can be anything you like but certainly not slow, it would be interesting to know what your basis is for this claim.

Regarding logs, I enquired via email they told me they keep them for one month, pretty straight forward answer, it may or may not be truth of course, but that happens with all single hope providers.

The trick is that Relakks is based in Sweden, as well as their server, under Swedish privacy law they do not have any obligation to give logs to the Swedish police unless the crime they are investigating carries a prison sentence higher than 2 years in prison, file sharing does not, and I believe that is their target audience.

[SteveTX]

The Swedish government performs the data logging at the IX level, which is higher than the ISP/Uplink/Datacenter. They don't have to ask the provider such as relakks. It is automatic. Relakks, as we tested it a while ago, could only get 100 Kbps through the USA. Their network does not peer well. We tested their PPTP connection and it leaked DNS 100% of the time, often dropping and leaking carrier data as well. This was submitted to wilders well over a year ago.

[dw426]

{QUOTE-> I have used Relakks in the past, and they can be anything you like but certainly not slow, it would be interesting to know what your basis is for this claim.

Regarding logs, I enquired via email they told me they keep them for one month, pretty straight forward answer, it may or may not be truth of course, but that happens with all single hope providers.

The trick is that Relakks is based in Sweden, as well as their server, under Swedish privacy law they do not have any obligation to give logs to the Swedish police unless the crime they are investigating carries a prison sentence higher than 2 years in prison, file sharing does not, and I believe that is their target audience. <-QUOTE}

In my own opinion, "slow" is a personal definition. What he considers slow, you may not, and vice versa. I would pay far more attention to the rest of his comments as they are what makes or breaks the deal, or rather, they should be. As far as your email to them, well, like you said, it could be true, it could be a lie. Even if it IS a "mere" month, that's enough time for someone who wants said logs to get them.

As far as the privacy law is concerned, so what? Laws are subject to interpretation, and not your interpretation. If some judge thinks your situation calls for it, then guess what, whether you like it or not, there goes your log. Now by making that statement I'm not trying to stir up any political crap or get some "I have rights" thing going, god knows we don't need that. I'm simply saying that it doesn't take a whole lot these days to "bend the rules" with laws.

Also, make sure you're not forgetting who this VPN is from, people that are up for a year in prison and who run the most well known, highly publicized, highly targeted torrent website in the world. Perhaps I'm TOO cautious, but, that thought makes me nervous. It's not about the right or wrong of file sharing, it's about the size of the microscope these people are under.

Edit: I see Steve got his reply in while I was typing mine. Well, there you have it, no permission needed, it's a done deal.

[SteveTX]

Just as I thought, now confirmed (http://torrentfreak.com/more-bittorrent-users-go-anonymous-090622/): IPREDATOR will be a rebranding of Relakks, which is a PPTP provider of the leakiest "anonymity" network in the world. In fact, relakks is not an anonymity network at all. It is simply an ISP that you connect to via VPN instead of via dialup/cablemodem. Run far and fast.

[dw426]

{QUOTE-> Just as I thought, now confirmed (http://torrentfreak.com/more-bittorrent-users-go-anonymous-090622/): IPREDATOR will be a rebranding of Relakks, which is a PPTP provider of the leakiest "anonymity" network in the world. In fact, relakks is not an anonymity network at all. It is simply an ISP that you connect to via VPN instead of via dialup/cablemodem. Run far and fast. <-QUOTE}

Thanks Steve, hopefully people will listen. I had a bad feeling about it, turns out that feeling was correct.

[Rivalen]

{QUOTE-> After this last court case, I trust neither them nor their network, and I'm sure as heck not going to allow them access to my financial data. I don't trust they won't keep some logs, it doesn't take much to scare them into complying with authorities. In fact, none of the above matters much because I don't see this service lasting very long. It will constantly be under attack at best, and shut down by authorities at worst. Just my opinion, but time is going to tell. <-QUOTE}

To scare them into anything - I think that will take some. What I have seen they dont seem very scared at all. Offer 3000 betatester to try Ipredator isnt the same as being scared in my book. The court procedures has probably another two instances to go before we see a valid result. I wouldnt be surprised if Pirate Bay wins in the higher courts.

Politically we dont know what kind of pressure is to expect and from where. This is not just about downloading - the new swedish laws are mostly about integrety. Some young people in Sweden dissaprove of the new laws and started their own political party - The Piracy Party - and gained 7% of the swedish votes for the EU-parlament which was conciderably more than some of the parties in the coalition that forms the ruling administration.

2010 there is a new vote for the swedish parlament and if the Piracy Party gains more than 4% they can play an important role in the middle between left and right and then - who knows who will comply with whom and who will be scared of whom and be ready to compromise in legislation?

Remember over here we are quite a lot of people - old (like me) and young who dissaprove of the Big Brother gaining to much power. Downloading is only one aspect of the changes in swedish law that has partly been lobbyied through by lobbyists from the big media dragons and are moreover a result of demand for generally better abilities for police to hunt down threats from organized crime and terrorists, not to say the least about making it in accordance with the law to listen to and gather infomation about foreign country info-traffic that can be picked up - not the least russian such traffic. They done it forever, but now they want it to be legal.

Many dissaprove of the new laws in general and want the administration to thread more carefully and in smaller steps when it comes to legislation that satifies the "hawks".

Just my two swedish "öre"(cents).

Best Regards

[Nebulus]

{QUOTE-> Just as I thought, now confirmed (http://torrentfreak.com/more-bittorrent-users-go-anonymous-090622/): IPREDATOR will be a rebranding of Relakks, which is a PPTP provider of the leakiest "anonymity" network in the world. In fact, relakks is not an anonymity network at all. It is simply an ISP that you connect to via VPN instead of via dialup/cablemodem. Run far and fast. <-QUOTE}

Of course, if it's not XeroBank, let's bash it! Way to go, Steve, I'm sure that's the way to get more customers! /sarcasm

[zero2008]

Some of XB's point is valid though. With the new IPRED law enacted in Sweden, ISPs are required to hand over information about their subscribers when copyright owners requests it. So if they are 1 hop and have their servers in Sweden, it's not secure. I used Relakks when it was offering 1 free month, the speed is ok, it's not fast, but I wouldn't call it slow. It's acceptable. I signed up for the Ipredator Beta, but I didn't get invited. I'm interested to see if their servers are in Sweden or not. If it's in a secure country, then it's good enough for me. All these talk about PPTP leaks or whatever don't bother me much. I'm not hiding from my ISP, I'm hiding from whoever's at the other end of the P2P.

[Gullible Jones]

...

These people don't guarantee anything about the torrents they host, many of them are malware infested. Even if there was every indication that their VPN was good, I wouldn't trust them.

[LockBox]

{QUOTE-> ...

These people don't guarantee anything about the torrents they host, many of them are malware infested. Even if there was every indication that their VPN was good, I wouldn't trust them. <-QUOTE}

They track and index, they don't host anything.

[Gullible Jones]

*cough* You know what I mean. ;)

[LockBox]

{QUOTE-> *cough* You know what I mean. ;) <-QUOTE}

The point I was trying to make is that The Pirate Bay (in fact no torrent tracker) can guarantee that the material being indexed is malware-free. They can't even guarantee that the torrent is what it says it is. That's what the comment sections and reliability ratings are for. So, I don't see how your thoughts about malware has anything to do with trusting TPB.

[dw426]

{QUOTE-> The point I was trying to make is that The Pirate Bay (in fact no torrent tracker) can guarantee that the material being indexed is malware-free. They can't even guarantee that the torrent is what it says it is. That's what the comment sections and reliability ratings are for. So, I don't see how your thoughts about malware has anything to do with trusting TPB. <-QUOTE}

The chances of this VPN lasting very long are slim anyway. 1. The appeal for a new trial for these guys was denied as of today. So, it looks like they are headed off for Bubba and TPB will remain under the wrong kind of spotlight. 2. As Steve has said, this thing is insecure as hell, so anyone who already knows that will steer clear and those who come to understand that will head for the hills....we hope. As always, just my opinion.

[emmpe]

{QUOTE-> ... The appeal for a new trial for these guys was denied as of today... <-QUOTE}

Not quite correct. The claim that the judge was biased and the demand for a new trial at the same level were rejected. The appeal to a higher court still stands, of course. With politicians slowly becoming aware of the problem with pissing off their voters, and national elections coming up next year...

[Fuzzfas]

{QUOTE-> Sweden performs connection logging and data retention. ThePirateBay doesn't need to keep any logs because their uplink will do so. Doesn't really matter, there is a lot to look at when it is released. Need to see it to make further comment. <-QUOTE}

It's not just Sweden. It's EU directive. All EU countries are oblidged to keep connection logs as well as email logs (addresses), for anti-terrorism purposes. Technically your ISP does it and has to keep them for a number of years, during which, if requested, he must give access to the authorities.

[SteveTX]

ThePirateBay sold themselves today (http://www.thelocal.se/20364/20090630/). It would appear that in the face of the loss of their appeal, ThePirateBay sold themselves out to a digital rights management distribution corp, Global Gaming Factory X. DRM is the exact opposite ideology and practice from ThePirateBay. Readers may want to consider this integrity compromise if ThePirateBay continues offering it's VPN service.

[dw426]

{QUOTE-> ThePirateBay sold themselves today (http://www.thelocal.se/20364/20090630/). It would appear that in the face of the loss of their appeal, ThePirateBay sold themselves out to a digital rights management distribution corp, Global Gaming Factory X. DRM is the exact opposite ideology and practice from ThePirateBay. Readers may want to consider this integrity compromise if ThePirateBay continues offering it's VPN service. <-QUOTE}

I suppose all I need to do now is refer to the first page of this thread where I made mention that these folks weren't going to be "champions for us" for long.

[LockBox]

I think even the most high-minded among us wouldn't turn a deal like that down. If somebody offered me millions for a website that's never made any money I think know I would do the same thing.

Steve, if you owned Xerobank (you don't but let's pretend) and somebody offered to put any concerns for money behind you forever by buying XB for millions of dollars, wouldn't you accept? Honestly?

Human beings being human beings. No surprise here.

[dw426]

{QUOTE-> I think even the most high-minded among us wouldn't turn a deal like that down. If somebody offered me millions for a website that's never made any money I think know I would do the same thing.

Steve, if you owned Xerobank (you don't but let's pretend) and somebody offered to put any concerns for money behind you forever by buying XB for millions of dollars, wouldn't you accept? Honestly?

Human beings being human beings. No surprise here. <-QUOTE}

It's far more than just the money, imho. I think they realize they're screwed and they're just hanging up the towel. In any case, it's quite a loss for the torrent world unless you happen to be very lucky to have been invited to or can get invites to the nicer private spots. And even those can go down at any moment.

[SteveTX]

This was actually discussed. XeroBank won't sell voting rights or controlling interest or managerial control under any circumstances, even if it ever sold stock. Stock would only be an investment opportunity for investors, not a control opportunity.

[DavidXanatos]

as about TPB, I feel betrayed, selling out to a commercial company is sure to result in a fiasco. Especial cause they tolled that they (the company) will remove illicit file sharing, and will pay the rights holders for the sharred content.
This is obviously censorship, only some stuff from a few people will be on the side, but surly not the latest blockbuster movie or such.
As no rights holder would allow them distributing it form the very begin before the theaters not stopped.At least not for the amount of pay they can recive from advertisement, and not without DRM.

As about their anonymity service or any other payed service, I don't see how this relay helps you when they have your financial data. Than they can pinpoint you instead of your ISP on a court order.
And this no logging, well EU says they have to log it just varies when you have to give the data out.
In my country my ISP is for the moment safe enough as normal P2P is not a cause for the court to order it give away my data.

So in my eyes paying for anonymity is just moving your problem some ware else but not solving it, unless you uses a stolon credit card but this will get you in more troubles then P2P.
Thats why I don't use any such service unless its for 100% free without entering real life data.

This services must provide some anonymity payment options, selling prepaid cards that on the exterior are all 100% identical (except the note how much money there is in 10, 20, 30, ...€) so they don't know what real person paid for what card and ofcause the account registration itself should work without name or address.
Pure multilayer anonymity so to say.

[dw426]

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/07/insider-trading-suspected-ahead-of-pirate-bay-sale/.

There's already insider trading problems happening before the deal even goes through. This should get interesting.

[zero2008]

They sold out, plain an simple. I was really surprised, I was going to try their Ipredator service when it comes out, but definitely not now. I wouldn't want people like that have logs of my activity.

[Beto]

{QUOTE-> ...

These people don't guarantee anything about the torrents they host, many of them are malware infested. Even if there was every indication that their VPN was good, I wouldn't trust them. <-QUOTE}

Yes many offerings are tainted, nonetheless there is value in their services if one protects his machine.

I use a separate XP on a separate hard drive (all others disconnected physically) to use any pirate bay type service and it has paid off in trying out stuff that is fully functional rather than crippled as a trial product.

If it works as advertised then I can buy it legit wise. (Support your code makers!!!)

It would be nice if logs were not kept, but with Obama in office there is less need of it for the ordinary citizen here in the U.S..

If pirate bay goes down another will surface to replace it (human nature does not change).

_______________________
EDIT: Sorry for the delay but summer break has finally freed me .