Linux advise, please?

[emmpe]

I sure could use some advise on Linux. The situation is that on and off in the past I've tried to install some varieties on an unused computer, just to see what it's like. None of them has ever worked (Red Hat, Debian, Open Suse and Damn Small L, I think it was) and the comp is long gone. But dammit! I'll try again. So what flavour and version would be appropriate for a VirtualBox on a Windows host? It should be both small, say 400 MB, and suitable for as wide selection of software as possible. Maybe this isn't the right forum, but I've seen a few ardent advocates of Linux around here, and I would truly appreciate their words of wisdom.

[lodore]

when you say none of the distros ever worked how do you mean?
did the installer not work?
did you download install version or live cd's?
did some stuff not work when fully installed?

[rdsu]

Try sidux (http://sidux.com)! ;)

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "It should be both small, say 400 MB, and suitable for as wide selection of software as possible. " }-
That's a little contradictory.... small and lots of software are at two extremes. There are light distros and heavy distros.

When you say 400mb, do you mean size on the CD, or size installed (not many are that small), also it would help if you were more specific about your hardware and also about what it is you want and/or are looking for.

But in general, there certainly is no shortage of distros to try out. Start looking here, it covers just about all of the most common and even uncommon ones:

http://distrowatch.com/

[farmerlee]

You could check out Vector Linux http://vectorlinux.com/ its a small fast distro but maybe not the easiest to use.

[jrmhng]

Is size something you can compromise on a little. If so try Xubuntu (http://www.xubuntu.org/). It is around 600 megs in terms of download size. Will expand to over 3 gigs once installed however.

[emmpe]

Hello all, thanks for your quick response and suggestions (that's why I always turn to Wilder's first).

-{ Quote: "That's a little contradictory.... small and lots of software are at two extremes. There are light distros and heavy distros.

When you say 400mb, do you mean size on the CD, or size installed (not many are that small), also it would help if you were more specific about your hardware and also about what it is you want and/or are looking for. " }-

Right now I'm running a virtual Windows XP stripped down to about 500 MB on disk; it works with most apps, absence of virtual hardware being the main obstacle in a few cases. My hardware is a HP 2core Athlon with Windows XP and my aim is to find out, the virtual way, what Linux is like and whether it might be an acceptable alternative to Windows. I'm under the impression that Linux software is always adapted to just a few distros - correct me if I'm wrong. Anyway, running it on VB from an already crowded disk means it has to be reasonably small - I'll go as far as 1 GB.

(Dam! Can't find a multiquote function! Oh, well.)

@huangker: Too big, just like Windows, which is rapidly becoming a monster. To think of all the things you could do with a floppydisk-sized OS on the kids' Amiga once upon a time!

@rdsu & farmerlee: I'll have a look. Windows isn't always easy to use either.

@lodore: They just wouldn't run. Correction: RedHat booted, but wouldn't let me do anything. Never bothered to find out why, though. Linux used to have a reputation of being hard to install, but that shouldn't be valid any more, should it?

[lodore]

if you using virtualbox firstly update to 2.0.4 link (http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads)
well acually what version are you using atm?

in virtualbox using a windows host i have successfully installed the following:
Ubuntu 8.10(needs 2.0.4 virtualbox),mandriva 2009,mandriva 2008 before 2009 was out.fedora 9,opensuse. someothers also worked but i cant remember at this time. the easiest to install linux distros IMO are ubuntu and opensuse. fedora isnt very hard eiether.

[jrmhng]

-{ Quote: " Anyway, running it on VB from an already crowded disk means it has to be reasonably small - I'll go as far as 1 GB.
" }-

There are definitely a few alternatives that can install in under 1 GB.

Damn Small Linux (http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/)
DeLi Linux (http://www.delilinux.org/)
xPUD (http://xpud.org/)

Be warned however these wont be as well polished as the major distros and you generally won't find as active as a community for support.

Alternatively, you are prepared for a steeper learning curve, you could the following distros that start you off with only a commandline interface and you can install a gui on top. Not as hard as it sounds because

Arch Linux (http://www.archlinux.org/) has an awesome package manager called pacman and
Ubuntu JeOS (http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition/jeos) has APT. Both are designed with online repos in mind so if you can get your VB networking up (usually just automatically configured) then you can get a GUI environment with out too much trouble.

-{ Quote: "@huangker: Too big, just like Windows, which is rapidly becoming a monster. To think of all the things you could do with a floppydisk-sized OS on the kids' Amiga once upon a time!
" }-

Hmm I just LOVE carrying around 20 floppies :P. More seriously though, disk space has gotten so much bigger that to most developers, 1 gig here or there doesn't matter much. Consider the size of your mp3 and movies collection. In terms of how fast it runs, Xubuntu is quite snappy even in a VM.

[FastGame]

TinyMe is a real nice small and fast Distro http://tinymelinux.com/doku.php/latestrelease

[emmpe]

All right, all you good people, thanks a lot. I'm downloading everything you suggest. I reckon I'll have to try them one by one. It seems like every Linux user has his own favourite. For the sake of bandwidth load I'd like to re-formulate my question: is there any Linux variety that should be shunned like the plague?

@lodore: I do use VB 204, and it works fine so far (all VM:s seem to trash my system sooner or later, but that's life). I've tried Slax on it but I can't stand this Vistafication of everything, making UI:s look like candystores. My earlier non-experiences with Linux were on a physical Pentium II machine.

-{ Quote: "
Hmm I just LOVE carrying around 20 floppies :P. " }-

Well, Amiga OS in itself wasn't bigger than a couple of floppies, as I recall. On the other hand I can still find forgotten application floppies in dark corners of the house though it'll soon be a decade since the kids moved out. That huge 40 MB hard disk was a bit too expensive, unfortunately. :)

[jrmhng]

-{ Quote: " For the sake of bandwidth load I'd like to re-formulate my question: is there any Linux variety that should be shunned like the plague?
" }-

I think most distros are quite light even with KDE. I do remember Foresight being very sluggish however.

-{ Quote: "Well, Amiga OS in itself wasn't bigger than a couple of floppies, as I recall. On the other hand I can still find forgotten application floppies in dark corners of the house though it'll soon be a decade since the kids moved out. That huge 40 MB hard disk was a bit too expensive, unfortunately. :)
" }-

Well I'm glad we are off them. Even if it was a couple of them, I'd lose 1 or 2 and there goes the OS.

[rdsu]

-{ Quote: "I think most distros are quite light even with KDE." }-
Check sidux and you will see what is light and fast...

[Arup]

-{ Quote: "Check sidux and you will see what is light and fast..." }-


I agree on that along with OzOs.

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "I agree on that along with OzOs." }-
Yep, I'll 3rd that, OzOS and Sidux are the lightest and quickest by far..... :)

[FastGame]

-{ Quote: "Yep, I'll 3rd that, OzOS and Sidux are the lightest and quickest by far..... :)" }-

Compared to what ?

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "Compared to what ?" }-
Compared to:

SUSE 11.x
Fedora 9.x
Ubuntu 8.x
Kubuntu 8.x
Xubuntu 8.x
Mandriva
PCLinuxOS
Debian
Sabayon
Linux Mint
PC-BSD
DreamLinux
MEPIS
gOS
Zenwalk

Those a a few I have used and can compare to. OzOS is extremely fast and light, in fact, it is the fastest distro I have seen and used. Hands down. And probably the nicest looking too... It is my choice, Sidux is very quick also.

[Longboard]

Echo:
Tiny Me (PCLOS extra lite) for a trial
MiniME ( PCLOS lite)
( extra advantage is Synaptic)
PuppyLinux 4.1.1 is now a very very polished distro
AntiX ( stripped down version of the great MEPIS is very nice.)
:shifty: Wolvix is Slack based GUI centric user friendly fast and light.
( personal fave )

All small, and i can vouch that all install into VMWare

@emmpe: could try WUBI if you dont want virtual installation but dont want dual boot.

THE GREATEST LINUX RESOURCE PAGE IN THE WORLD:
http://www.dedoimedo.com/
http://www.dedoimedo.com/computer_software.html#linux
;D

[FastGame]

-{ Quote: "OzOS is extremely fast and light, in fact, it is the fastest distro I have seen and used" }-

I guess " I have seen and used" are key words......

Arch
Slackware (and Slackware based distro's)
Gentoo
DSL
Puppy
TinyMe

Thats fast and light.

DSL, Puppy, TinyMe have options to load entirely into ram, there's no possible way OzOS can be as fast as these.

OzOS wins in the looks department ;)

Sidex ??? :doubt:

[Kerodo]

Yep, OzOS is a looker for sure.... the others you mentioned are light, but probably don't have a full complement of software either. Oz does. Somehow when they used Enlightment for the desktop, it really gave the entire distro a boost speedwise. Or more likely that's just how fast Linux is without the load of KDE or Gnome. But you are probably right, the smaller ones are fast also, maybe faster.... Try Oz sometime for fun and you'll see... :)

[Longboard]

Sidux eh: fast and light ?? hhmmm...
OK; the .iso is sitting staring at me: I'll do it...;)
Sounds like OzOs ( another distro with strong Aussie input) needs a trial too.

OT: Got some debian iso's here too: is it a strain ??

-{ Quote: "SUSE 11.x
Fedora 9.x
Ubuntu 8.x
Kubuntu 8.x
Xubuntu 8.x
Mandriva
PCLinuxOS
Debian
Sabayon
Linux Mint
PC-BSD
DreamLinux
MEPIS
gOS
Zenwalk" }-:o
lol, go the K: settled yet ??

[Mrkvonic]

Try Puppy Linux.
Mrk

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "
:o
lol, go the K: settled yet ??" }-
Haha... Yes, after all that, I did settle on OzOS, and Ubuntu 2nd.... :)

[emmpe]

This thread sure has provided good reading. I've learned of quite a few new distros and I get the feeling there's no end to them. Can't say I've found a favourite yet, though anything running from a CD seems to be a good idea. Not all of them work with VBox, of course. It's a shame, though, that Linux has such a slow, linear evolution. It'll probably never become a real alternative to Windows - sad to say. As for security: why this obsession with passwords in Linux, usually even mandatory already at setup? I want to take care of security things myself and on my own initiative.

[jrmhng]

-{ Quote: " It's a shame, though, that Linux has such a slow, linear evolution. It'll probably never become a real alternative to Windows - sad to say. " }-

Unless you can expand on this point, you will probably get flamed for this one. Linux is actually a great alternative to windows. The only problem most people have with switching is that they have windows specific software.

-{ Quote: " As for security: why this obsession with passwords in Linux, usually even mandatory already at setup? I want to take care of security things myself and on my own initiative." }-

How is this a bad thing?

[Arup]

LOL! for an OS that takes the latest hardware and accommodates ancient ones as well, runs on minimal antiquated machines with ease, has the most active kernel development with frequent dynamic updates is SLOW. When did MS get its last kernel upgrade may I ask. All it does is peddle old wine in new bottle. The stable MS OS is NT based which in turn is roughly OS/2 based so in the end, unlike Linux which is a new creation, Windows isn't' except for fancy new shells and hype marketing. No wonder the expectations are so high and then they fall down with the biggest thud and go flat. The reason, people are expecting something new and all they find out is a bloated buggy OS instead. MS's best efforts till date is NT followed by 2K and 2003 and now 2008, notice that all of them are office oriented. Perhaps they best compromise wast x64 XP which MS in its own greed treated it like a stepchild. It was the best hope for MS and they should have continued with the development and marketing of it. With 2003 NT 5.2 as the core, its solid, fast and has no issues. As a mater of fact when it came to x64, MS got an edge over its Linux counterparts with WoW which ran all x32 programs with ease.

The fact that Linux runs as non root default is its best feature and unlike MS who should have implemented this, Linux is safe from hacks relatively.

[emmpe]

-{ Quote: "Unless you can expand on this point, you will probably get flamed for this one. ... The only problem most people have with switching is that they have windows specific software." }-

Well, I wouldn't take it very seriously if I get flamed. I agree Linux is a very good invention and I do intend to use it for some purpouses. It also seems like it's becoming more widely used in poor countries which is just great, challenging the ubiquity of Microsoft and other corporations. But the "only" problem of people having Windows software is really rather big from the perspective of Linux becoming a real competitor of Windows. I can't find any Linux equivalents of Cubase, 3dStudioMax and other more or less standard apps (no, Blender won't be an option for most people, impressive though it be). Neither, and more important, can I find the same enormous selection of first class freeware or cheap shareware. Admittedly there's a lot of good Linux applications, but you can never be certain that they'll suit the latest version of your special distro. This is not necessarily a fault with Linux, but together with the exotic way of installing software (for Windows users), and considering the time Linux has been around, it makes a general migration seem rather improbable within a couple of generations. But maybe I'm just not comfortable enough with it yet. I'd love to see Microsoft beaten, just like some millions of other users do.

About the password issue: Maybe not a bad thing, just my ego. If I want passwords, I put them there when it suits me. I do have a problem with all this bundled software too, it's like the OEM stuff forced on you, except it's the real stuff instead of half a GB of bloatware. But as I said, maybe it's just my ego (which I prefer to call "integrity").

Anyway, this is far off topic.

[lodore]

Hello,
I think the main reason for people not adopting to Linux is that the programs they use doesn't work on Linux. Plus don't forgot about that Linux is still considered "for Geeks only"
Users don't mind what operating system they use as long as they can do what they want with it.
If I could set-up FreeBSD to do everything I wanted to i would be using it, this includes all my applications working with it. I quite like openSolaris.

[emmpe]

-{ Quote: "Hello,
I think the main reason for people not adopting to Linux is that the programs they use doesn't work on Linux...Users don't mind what operating system they use as long as they can do what they want with it." }-

That's what I mean. But I do mind what OS I use. Arup is right about Windows. Furthermore it's damn expensive if you're not satisfied with OEM versions, and definitely deteriorating UI-wise IMO. I'll stick with XP for a while yet and hope for the best in the future. And Linux is definitely not a geek thing any more - at least that much I have learned with the help of people here on Wilder's.

[jrmhng]

-{ Quote: "When did MS get its last kernel upgrade may I ask. All it does is peddle old wine in new bottle. The stable MS OS is NT based which in turn is roughly OS/2 based so in the end, unlike Linux which is a new creation, Windows isn't' except for fancy new shells and hype marketing. No wonder the expectations are so high and then they fall down with the biggest thud and go flat.
" }-

Vista was actually a great leap forward in terms of the windows kernel. MS seriously componentized and made the code more malleable. Windows 7 has lots of kernel optimizations. Linux isn't much newer/older either I believe. Development started on Linux and NT in the early 90s.

-{ Quote: " But the "only" problem of people having Windows software is really rather big from the perspective of Linux becoming a real competitor of Windows. I can't find any Linux equivalents of Cubase, 3dStudioMax and other more or less standard apps (no, Blender won't be an option for most people, impressive though it be)." }-

That is a problem with the ecosystem being not as developed in Linux due to its lesser popularity, not the purported slow development cycles.

-{ Quote: " Neither, and more important, can I find the same enormous selection of first class freeware or cheap shareware. Admittedly there's a lot of good Linux applications, but you can never be certain that they'll suit the latest version of your special distro" }-

Not sure that is entirely true. Just because there isn't a load of software in the opensource ecosystem, doesn't mean you won't be able to find software that will be the same functionality wise. If theres something specific you are referring to, ask in these forums and I'm sure there will be people here who know good Linux alternatives.

-{ Quote: "This is not necessarily a fault with Linux, but together with the exotic way of installing software (for Windows users)" }-

I think you really addressed your own point there. It seems strange from the windows user perspective because people are used to the idea of downloading an exe and double clicking. This doesn't mean that the idea of having centralized repositories and installing via the commandline or a gui frountend is a poor way of installing software. I'd argue that it is more elegant and efficient than how windows handles it. Each time you download an exe, it includes all the required libraries, increasing the size of your download. Additionally, management of different dll versions is also inefficient. If you have Vista, just check the size of your windows\winsxs folder. It contains all different dll versions to avoid conflict of libraries. It can get to be as big as 10 gigs on some computers.

-{ Quote: "definitely deteriorating UI-wise IMO. I'll stick with XP for a while yet and hope for the best in the future." }- Well that is a matter of taste. Windows 7 will be making the shell more configurable though. Additionally, there are a few alternative shells out there for those who like tweaking.

[lodore]

Hello,
I quite like the idea of package management systems.
Its nice to have one place that updates everything.
say in windows I use media monkey for music. since there isnt media monkey for linux what do I use? there are loads of media programs for linux but which one? I couldn't think of a better example at this time.

There are times when you do download a .rpm or .deb etc anyway and then they install using the package manager.
I find it strange where linux stores programs. i cant remember the exact directory structure at this time. I am sure there is a reason for it. Hopefully someone can explain or provide me with a link explaining it.
Windows and Apple OSX's program install structure is much easier.
apple stores in /applications and of course windows stores in Letter:\program files.

If you install firefox using package manager. If later on you delete the firefox folder manually do all the short cuts including menus in in gnome kde etc go as well? I'm assuming when you lanch package manager it will notice firefox is deleted and then delete all references to it and allow you to install it again if you wish it?

I sometimes wonder why apple doesn't have a package manager? apple updater does just apple updates.

I'm thinking that there maybe a mix of with paid software and not having free upgrades etc.

does anyone complain about downloading .dmg files separately? do apple directory's get really big to make sure software has the correct libraries

I like the way apple does it. an installer to install the software and to uninstall simply delete the directory.
if you wish to stick with opera 9.5 for now have it ticked every time you check for any available updates with a package manager with OSX or windows.

I hope Linux gets used more and more. I don't know which operating system I will be using in years to come.
at the moment Microsoft has the majority market share so they can produce whatever they like even if it is outdated bloatware.
As Linux or other Unix based operating systems get used more users and companies will notice how much more reliable it is. By this time Microsoft will be forced to create more reliable and up to date operating system and applications or lose their market share.

[Kerodo]

-{ Quote: "Hello,
I think the main reason for people not adopting to Linux is that the programs they use doesn't work on Linux. " }-

Yep, I know several people in this exact situation, and there are no suitable replacements or alternatives they will accept in the Linux world..

[Pedro]

Just a note, a .deb package (for instance) is in many ways like the .exe self extracting windows installer.. that uninstalls clean.
It's just a matter of having them available.

[farmerlee]

-{ Quote: "Hello,
I quite like the idea of package management systems.
Its nice to have one place that updates everything.
say in windows I use media monkey for music. since there isnt media monkey for linux what do I use? there are loads of media programs for linux but which one? I couldn't think of a better example at this time.
" }-
Amarok or Miro are a couple of possible alternatives. Otherwise you can always run mediamonkey using WINE.

[emmpe]

-{ Quote: "That is a problem with the ecosystem being not as developed in Linux due to its lesser popularity, not the purported slow development cycles." }-

No users - no software; no software - no users. An evil circle. The ecosystem of Linux lagging in its evolution rather than the OS itself. All right, I buy that.
Anyway there's no point in discussing the pros and cons of various OS:es here. I think this is meant to be a security oriented forum. I'm grateful for having learned what I came here for and will probably end up with a dual boot system the next time I rebuild. After all Linux, as a collective and non-commercial achievement, has a strong socialist flavour and I cannot resist that.

[Arup]

Actually for me it was freedom from security apps and MS's forced obsolescence every few years when they would make it difficult for a customer to run a stable well patched OS and have no choice but upgrade to the latest just for compatibility reason. I don't miss the daily check of anti virus and HIPS, AS etc. For me, its using my 8 cores and 8GB to the max and enjoying it, sadly that also means deprivation of some of the best windows apps which have truly no equivalent in Linux world.

[jrmhng]

-{ Quote: "Anyway there's no point in discussing the pros and cons of various OS:es here. I think this is meant to be a security oriented forum." }-
Wilders has a security focus but because we are all are interested in tech in general, we dont have to restrict ourselves.
-{ Quote: "No users - no software; no software - no users. An evil circle." }-
Linux has a good ecosystem and a good number of users as do a number of other open source community based projects. The programs you mentioned are niche products and there just isn't enough of a market for the developers to port it over. Have a look at the WINE apps db and you will see that Cubase (http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=1181) and 3D Studio Max (http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=343) have partial support.

[emmpe]

-{ Quote: " For me, its using my 8 cores and 8GB to the max and enjoying it, sadly that also means deprivation of some of the best windows apps which have truly no equivalent in Linux world." }-

If I had that kind of stuff I could even live with Vista...No. That's a lie.:)

-{ Quote: "The programs you mentioned are niche products and there just isn't enough of a market for the developers to port it over. Have a look at the WINE apps db and you will see that Cubase (http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=1181) and 3D Studio Max (http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=343) have partial support." }-

That's what I'm talking about, more or less. Linux is great and not the least alien (except for that password thing) to a Windows man as long as you're content with the applications that come with the distro and the ones you can easily add after installing. Those facilities are quite enough for everyday use. (Admittedly, The Gimp is rather impressive, and Blender is fantastic in spite of its horrible UI). But as soon as you want to go about your more sophisticated computer businesses the hassle begins. Ok, so I'm willing to learn, a small group of interested people is too, but is the majority of Winusers? And anyway, there's Wine, there's Win4Lin, there's Crossover. Well, if you have to fill your Linux setup with programs to make it fit Windows, why not stay with Windows, unless you're motivated by something more than and outside of pure OS considerations?

(And, by the way, let's be honest and admit that both Microsoft and the other major actors in software industry profit from the abundance of pirated programs. Any interested kid can easily get his hands on a Photoshop and some thousands of handy plug-ins, or an Autocad or whatever - niche products, yes, but industry standards - which in the end will further confirm the hegemony of Windows and those applications, as well as provide employers with ready-educated labour. I tried to check the availability of cracked software for Linux. There ain't much, though it seems that one of the real big ones, Maya, is ported to Linux now, and offered in a cracked version. That's promising - not meaning that I endorse piracy, just that it's a sign of success on the part of Linux.)

Mind you, I'm not critisising Linux, I'm just so damn fed up with the dominance of MS and its allied software peddlers. After all, computers and the Internet is a massive democratic breakthrough, and I'd like to see it completed before I die.

And as I'm not the kind who's hellbent on getting the last word, this will be all from me. Thanks for a nice chat.

[Arup]

-{ Quote: "If I had that kind of stuff I could even live with Vista...No. That's a lie.:)



That's what I'm talking about, more or less. Linux is great and not the least alien (except for that password thing) to a Windows man as long as you're content with the applications that come with the distro and the ones you can easily add after installing. Those facilities are quite enough for everyday use. (Admittedly, The Gimp is rather impressive, and Blender is fantastic in spite of its horrible UI). But as soon as you want to go about your more sophisticated computer businesses the hassle begins. Ok, so I'm willing to learn, a small group of interested people is too, but is the majority of Winusers? And anyway, there's Wine, there's Win4Lin, there's Crossover. Well, if you have to fill your Linux setup with programs to make it fit Windows, why not stay with Windows, unless you're motivated by something more than and outside of pure OS considerations?

(And, by the way, let's be honest and admit that both Microsoft and the other major actors in software industry profit from the abundance of pirated programs. Any interested kid can easily get his hands on a Photoshop and some thousands of handy plug-ins, or an Autocad or whatever - niche products, yes, but industry standards - which in the end will further confirm the hegemony of Windows and those applications, as well as provide employers with ready-educated labour. I tried to check the availability of cracked software for Linux. There ain't much, though it seems that one of the real big ones, Maya, is ported to Linux now, and offered in a cracked version. That's promising - not meaning that I endorse piracy, just that it's a sign of success on the part of Linux.)

Mind you, I'm not critisising Linux, I'm just so damn fed up with the dominance of MS and its allied software peddlers. After all, computers and the Internet is a massive democratic breakthrough, and I'd like to see it completed before I die.

And as I'm not the kind who's hellbent on getting the last word, this will be all from me. Thanks for a nice chat." }-


Surprisingly I found way to install Linux flavor of Picasa and it works as good as the windows version. Must admit, I never liked Vista, not even x64, found it too flakey and bloated but I did enjoy x64 XP which ran like a champ till I switched all over to Ubuntu. Never gave me any surprises and if I didn't need to upgrade and keep tab of security apps on daily basis, it would be a keeper for me along with Ubuntu. New Gimp is good, still clunky interface but good nonetheless and fast, also Acrobat Reader works well with the browser and as a reader.