Now how to choose a VPN / anonymizer service ?

[Reve_Etrange]

I have been searching the net for reviews, charts and users' opinions regarding VPN and SSH-bases anonymizers, but I could not find anything trustable.

I mainly want to surf the net anonymously with good response times, run Flash if I can, and I'm not exceedingly concerned by juridictions. I have not much to hide, but this does not mean anyone should be able to find out what I do.

As I said elsewhere, I have already read the "Anyone tried Xerobank" topic. If you are *not* working for them, feel free to give your opinion.

What about COTSE ? Steganos ? Secure-tunnel ? There are too many, and so few reviews !

[dr pan k]

not sure if it fits your needs but take a look at this: http://www.torproject.org/ its the ultimate solution...and dont judge by the looks (main core by US naval research). also in linux konqueror version.:thumb:

[MikeNAS]

{QUOTE-> I mainly want to surf the net anonymously with good response times <-QUOTE}

I think that Tor is too slow to him. Secure-Tunnel looks quite good. You can use it with all programs and price isn't so high. After all I like XeroBank most but with Plus account you can't run whatever you want and Pro account is too expensive to me and gives too much bandwidth. So I want XeroBank Plus (SSH) with possibility to use it with all programs :D

[dr pan k]

{QUOTE-> I think that Tor is too slow to him. Secure-Tunnel looks quite good. You can use it with all programs and price isn't so high. After all I like XeroBank most but with Plus account you can't run whatever you want and Pro account is too expensive to me and gives too much bandwidth. So I want XeroBank Plus (SSH) with possibility to use it with all programs :D <-QUOTE}

u r right mike, xerobank is way too expencive, without pro u dont get ftp and p2p...practically useless.... and secure tunnel is 10$ a month... steganos because of the price rates related to traffic maybe is more convenient. tor is for free anyway...

[Reve_Etrange]

That's right, Tor is too slow for all I know, and I am leery of all this trust-me-i-am-a-good-node jumping.
Secure-tunnel looks fair, but I don't know enough to make an opinion. I have googled a bit, but the name is just too generic :(

[fuzzylogic]

The problem your going to face with such a decision is that is hard to test a company for anonymous service provider. I mean you'll have a hard time finding a magazine or computer company that will go out an test a anonymous service, how are they going to test it, they are not going to do a whole article on due diligence of the company or how good the company will cover your tracks. They are going to if anything test the features and speed of the service full stop. The only reviews you'll fiind are from stegnos and anonymizer. You are going to have to dig hard into forums and groups.google.com go find good personal reviews of products, but you'll also find alot of conspiracy theories and half assed sales pitches from people.

As for good ones i've found then COSTE seem to have good reviews, steagnos and anoymizer are OK but they are all located in the US. The are other providers out their, (look in the other threads for them), you need to see whom you trust and not that of everyone elses option.

[Reve_Etrange]

Well, I guess good techies could review the architecture of the solution and its features, test speed like you said, look for leaks, quality of service, support, price, etc. It's pretty much the same problem for AV (namely laymen don't know whether they are truly effective or not), yet there are more reviews. Isn't there some acid test for privacy issues, like, a special site trying everything possible to get info about you?

I have seen good opinion of COTSE, too, but it is hard to tell if this was just fanboys. I thought I could get some expert advice here on Wilders.

[fuzzylogic]

its funny that you say that, seems wilders are more interested in TOR or anonymizer, you'd be hard pressed to find anything. Maybe you'd be the first to review some VPN's out there =). Unfortunately there is no 'grand test' for anonymous services, due to peoples different requirements, some are more worried about privacy and their data, others wish to become invisable on the web.

[caspian]

I use XB Pro and I love it. I think Cotse is in the US. I play around with tor here and there but it is way too slow..

I have a MetroPipe Tunnel account. I only use it with Returnil on because it makes changes to my IE browser. This way I can restart my computer and everything is back to normal. I rarely use it though. It is slow.

I also have an IPhantom. It is also in the US but is pretty cool. It is a hardware device that you hook up that encrypts everything and send it to their servers. I had a few problems with it for a while. I could not log into Myspace with it. I had to disable it to log in.. And when I logged into my Yahoo email account, the smilies and graphics would not work. They were not even visible. But this all seems to have been resolved. They do not advertise it on their website anymore, but I think it is still available if you ask for it.

But I do not think that it compares to XeroBank Pro. It is very fast and I cannot even tell that I am using it.

[MikeNAS]

http://privacy.li/

Looking quite secure and intresting. Price isn't so high too.

{QUOTE-> Pricing:
You get one full year of Privacy-Tunnel for EURO 100, at the server of your choice (either Holland, Germany, Malaysia, Hong Kong, USA or the Czech Republic).

The following discounted packages are offered for multi-ID-folks:

* Any 2 servers at EURO 150/year
* Any 3 servers at EURO 180/year
* Any 4 servers at EURO 200/year
* Any 5 servers at EURO 220/year
* All 6 servers at EURO 240/year (best deal! 40EUR/tunnel/year!)

NEW: We are now offering multi year subscriptions to have you even save more:

* 2 year subscription, 15% discount on any price
* 3 year subscription, 20% discount on any price
* LIFETIME subscription to all servers we offer (including new ones in the future) is EUR 999!! <-QUOTE}

[caspian]

{QUOTE-> http://privacy.li/

Looking quite secure and intresting. Price isn't so high too. <-QUOTE}

150 Euro = $234 US. I am leery of them because I have heard them referred to as scammers here on Wilders on several occasions.

[eternalbeta]

The info at http://privacy.li/ looks quite similar to the info regarding Surfsolo (former Secursurf) on www.securstar.com. There seems to be some sort of connection there?

I've used Secursurf some time ago with a server in Malaysia. A tad slow but the main problem was that you could run emule only on tcp, not udp. Nevertheless it gave decent downloads even with the resulting low id.

Surfsolo with 1 server plus anon email is 79 Euro/year.

[Reve_Etrange]

privacy.li has a very poor reputation. Caveat emptor.

[MikeNAS]

{QUOTE-> The info at http://privacy.li/ looks quite similar to the info regarding Surfsolo (former Secursurf) on www.securstar.com. There seems to be some sort of connection there?

I've used Secursurf some time ago with a server in Malaysia. A tad slow but the main problem was that you could run emule only on tcp, not udp. Nevertheless it gave decent downloads even with the resulting low id.

Surfsolo with 1 server plus anon email is 79 Euro/year. <-QUOTE}

Same product.

http://www.privacy.li/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=636

One server is enough to me but I still continue to seek "the best" solution.

[SteveTX]

MikeNAS,

I was talking with Kyle the other day about your comments on the limitations of Plus for $10/m. I saw a couple different solutions I would like your opinion on. The first is that there is a way to "VPN" that Plus account using certain software to capture all your traffic via VPN, and funnel it via the SSH connection. The other alternative is in the xb2.0 network, we allow unlimited connections to vpn. So that could essentially mean people start reselling account access, or a group of two or more could split the account, driving the cost down very far. So group purchases or reseller arrangements could work.

In addition to the latter idea, I was discussing an "unmetered" connection, whereby if you had an account and one of you wanted to use it for P2P and the other didn't, you could have the P2P guy connect to the unmetered connection and download all he wants without using up the monthly bandwidth balance.

I'm interested, what is your idea of "perfect" ?

[MikeNAS]

{QUOTE-> MikeNAS,

I was talking with Kyle the other day about your comments on the limitations of Plus for $10/m. I saw a couple different solutions I would like your opinion on. The first is that there is a way to "VPN" that Plus account using certain software to capture all your traffic via VPN, and funnel it via the SSH connection. The other alternative is in the xb2.0 network, we allow unlimited connections to vpn. So that could essentially mean people start reselling account access, or a group of two or more could split the account, driving the cost down very far. So group purchases or reseller arrangements could work.

In addition to the latter idea, I was discussing an "unmetered" connection, whereby if you had an account and one of you wanted to use it for P2P and the other didn't, you could have the P2P guy connect to the unmetered connection and download all he wants without using up the monthly bandwidth balance.

I'm interested, what is your idea of "perfect" ? <-QUOTE}

Monthly bandwidth limitation is ok to me because I don't use much or at all P2P/FTP. I just want to use it with all possible programs. Of course with that price (10$) you can't get unlimited bandwidth. I say that Pro account with PLUS account bandwidth (200 Kbps) and your choise monthly limit sounds good to me. VPN sounds better to me (and maybe others too) because it's easier to setup and hassle free. I can even pay little bit more than 10$/month. Of course I pay whole year once :D

EDIT: I forgot to say that I'm really waiting what you can do because I wanna XeroBank Account which I trust and support is superb.

[SteveTX]

I spoke with the promotions guy, Scott, and I think the standard price will be something like $30/m for xB, and that all fees are going to be done monthly, you won't pay in advance. The idea, he told me, was $1/day for xerobank protection. When I asked what you get (normally we have a soft limit of around 25-30GB/month currently, @$35/m), he said it would be at _least_ double of that in bandwidth, so you could easily share accounts.

Tell me what you mean by "Pro and Plus"? I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean a VPN connection, but at Plus speeds instead of 1-2Mbit (in order to drop the price??) ?

[Genady Prishnikov]

{QUOTE-> I was talking with Kyle the other day about your comments on the limitations of Plus for $10/m. <-QUOTE}

{QUOTE-> I spoke with the promotions guy, Scott, and I think... <-QUOTE}

All of a sudden first names start popping up in Steve's XeroBank posts! Imagine! Right after I accused him of possibly being a one-man-shop! Slick.

Mike, Whatever you do, stay away from privacy.li (privacy.lie as they are affectionately known). There are better choices and (get ready for a shocker) it may even include Steve's XeroBank.

[MikeNAS]

{QUOTE-> Tell me what you mean by "Pro and Plus"? I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean a VPN connection, but at Plus speeds instead of 1-2Mbit (in order to drop the price??) ? <-QUOTE}

Yes I mean that.

[eternalbeta]

{QUOTE-> I saw a couple different solutions I would like your opinion on. The first is that there is a way to "VPN" that Plus account using certain software to capture all your traffic via VPN, and funnel it via the SSH connection. <-QUOTE}

That would be interesting indeed and I would love to try it when that comes available as unfortunately the cost of a Pro/xB 2.0 account is prohibitive, especially as those seem to have an additional soft limit of around 25-30GB/month.

I would very much prefer to have a VPN connection, but at Plus speeds instead of 1-2Mbit in order to drop the price rather than having to share it with my neighbours to reduce the cost.

[SteveTX]

good input. I assume that this inexpensive vpn service doesn't need to include frills like mail and storage, yes? just a vpn client? How much monthly data volume?

[eternalbeta]

{QUOTE-> good input. I assume that this inexpensive vpn service doesn't need to include frills like mail and storage, yes? just a vpn client? How much monthly data volume? <-QUOTE}

Indeed, no mail and storage are needed for such an offer. In the past I've used services like zero knowledge, anonymizer, relakks, secursurf etc. The latter having a problem with UDP for Emule and a tad slow from Malaysia (although they included the email) but that was OK. I have the impression from the discussion that your plus account is even somewhat faster (correct me if I'm wrong) although I've never tried it. The one time I did I just got a message that my trial account was not recognized or something like that. If I remember correctly you had a problem moving the servers at that time.

Regarding monthly data volume, sincerely I've no idea , I've never looked at my traffic in that way. It is quite variable but I would be surprised if, at a peak month, it would be more than the 25 -30 GB/month you mentioned, but as I said I really have no idea.

[MikeNAS]

{QUOTE-> good input. I assume that this inexpensive vpn service doesn't need to include frills like mail and storage, yes? just a vpn client? How much monthly data volume? <-QUOTE}

I like to see atleast one mail account (50MB storage is enough). No reason to add bigger storage. I don't have either any idea how big/small monthly data volume should be.

[Paranoid2000]

{QUOTE-> In the past I've used services like zero knowledge, anonymizer, relakks, secursurf etc. <-QUOTE}Have you tried FindNot? That seems to be based in your area (Singapore registered) so it may provide better performance.

A forum search should also turn up some relevant threads - some more general discussion can be found in threads like Could use some advice re: anonymous surfing (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=71090) and Proxy software and services (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=64897).

One key issue to consider is from whom you wish to anonymize your traffic (in order of difficulty - nosey neighbours, your ISP, P2P monitoring organisations, government). In view of your initial post, most of the commercial services should be "good enough" in privacy terms.

[fuzzylogic]

{QUOTE-> MikeNAS,

I was talking with Kyle the other day about your comments on the limitations of Plus for $10/m. I saw a couple different solutions I would like your opinion on. The first is that there is a way to "VPN" that Plus account using certain software to capture all your traffic via VPN, and funnel it via the SSH connection. The other alternative is in the xb2.0 network, we allow unlimited connections to vpn. So that could essentially mean people start reselling account access, or a group of two or more could split the account, driving the cost down very far. So group purchases or reseller arrangements could work.

In addition to the latter idea, I was discussing an "unmetered" connection, whereby if you had an account and one of you wanted to use it for P2P and the other didn't, you could have the P2P guy connect to the unmetered connection and download all he wants without using up the monthly bandwidth balance.

I'm interested, what is your idea of "perfect" ? <-QUOTE}

maybe you should look at 'jamusvm', it basically something that acts as a virtual computer that you connect to as a vpn and then it tunnel all traffic over the TOR network could be reversed to do SSH.

I certainly would support a 'lite' option of 200-500kps vpn just for web surfing and email. have at least one email account and the ability to creat some aliases would be cool as well. don't really need any storage for such a plan and if they do they can just upgrade.

[SteveTX]

{QUOTE-> maybe you should look at 'jamusvm', it basically something that acts as a virtual computer that you connect to as a vpn and then it tunnel all traffic over the TOR network could be reversed to do SSH.

I certainly would support a 'lite' option of 200-500kps vpn just for web surfing and email. have at least one email account and the ability to creat some aliases would be cool as well. don't really need any storage for such a plan and if they do they can just upgrade. <-QUOTE}

Btw, that particular Kyle I spoke of is the same on who wrote JanusVM. I'm pleased to have him as a fellow team member, he is very smart. I'll talk to him about hooking up a service to SSH with JanusVM as a pre-package. I spoke with him the other day about that, I think he said he already included OpenVPN and SSH right into it.

[eternalbeta]

{QUOTE-> Have you tried FindNot? That seems to be based in your area (Singapore registered) so it may provide better performance.

One key issue to consider is from whom you wish to anonymize your traffic (in order of difficulty - nosey neighbours, your ISP, P2P monitoring organisations, government). In view of your initial post, most of the commercial services should be "good enough" in privacy terms. <-QUOTE}

Thanks P2K, as always, your contribution has provided me with food for thought. The key issue here is most of all ISP (Phorm!)/P2P not the government as I don't think my surfing habits are of interest to them. Apart from that, I do like my privacy!

So I'll be taking a look at Findnot (although I hail from Europe, it was the exit server of Secursurf which was based in Malaysia), a pity though that they haven't got any trial possibility to try it out like Xerobank (when it works that is).

[Reve_Etrange]

{QUOTE-> As I said elsewhere, I have already read the "Anyone tried Xerobank" topic. If you are *not* working for them, feel free to give your opinion. <-QUOTE}
Do you take over every topic on privacy, XeroBank (the guy)?
I don't want to be rude or anything, but it feels like having XeroBank (the product) thrusted down my throat. I guess XeroBank (the company) won't get hurt too much if one topic of Wilder's does not mention XeroBank (guy, product and company).

Thanks Paranoid2k. I didn't know FindNot; does it have a good reputation?
I will qualify my requirements, as it is no big deal if my ISP or the government can find out what I have been doing if they really want, provided it is not right there for them to scrutinize in plain text. I mean, if they want to go to court or analyse the IP packets, let them do so, it's not worth it lol. On the other hand, I certainly don't want neighbours or site owners to be able to get information about me.

In addition, I need decent speed and JavaScript is a must (no Java is ok). Isn't 40$-ish/month a bit overkill for what I need? (genuine question, if it's what it costs, then ok)

As of now, I have COTSE, secure-tunnel and FindNot on my short list. Sensible ?

[SteveTX]

Is it true? (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/gagegararge/ThreadDirection.jpg)


No, it's mandatory, I'm required by contract to make a guest appearance in all threads, and perform 2 shows a night in vegas. Perhaps if the username was different you would feel differently. I am very interested to find out what people want though.

[Woody777]

That iPhantom Router VPN Tunneling Device sounds interesting if it does everything it says it does its a bargain. Your correct it does not seem to be an item that the parent company really pushes. I did find it for sale through Trusty Files a P2P Application that I do not use or recommend. It was on sale for 89.95 dollars marked down from 119 Dollars. The issue would be that it actually works as advertised. It also says it includes an Antivirus & works on internet Gateways I suppose you coud say it was a complete internet security solution. Does it actually work?

[caspian]

{QUOTE-> Do you take over every topic on privacy, XeroBank (the guy)?
<-QUOTE}

I personally like to hear his input on anything concerning a VPN or internet privacy. As well as I appreciate Paranoid's input.

[caspian]

{QUOTE-> That iPhantom Router VPN Tunneling Device sounds interesting if it does everything it says it does its a bargain. Your correct it does not seem to be an item that the parent company really pushes. I did find it for sale through Trusty Files a P2P Application that I do not use or recommend. It was on sale for 89.95 dollars marked down from 119 Dollars. The issue would be that it actually works as advertised. It also says it includes an Antivirus & works on internet Gateways I suppose you coud say it was a complete internet security solution. Does it actually work? <-QUOTE}

I asked one of their tech guys and they said they still offer it but don't advertise it up front anymore. I think that site that you mentioned is part of a program that they offered to get a commission from selling it.

Aside from the fact that it is in the US, I think it is really cool. Just to let you know, to get secure DNS, you have to go into the security tab and select it. It has several different options there that I don't understand at all. But you can take it with you and use it on other computers.

Something weird though. What is airlinereservations ? That is what the IP address lookup says. 208.70.74.13

[Paranoid2000]

{QUOTE-> Thanks Paranoid2k. I didn't know FindNot; does it have a good reputation? <-QUOTE}I don't know since I've not used it. That's why I suggest doing a forum search since it has been discussed here in the past. The two threads I linked to above also include very good pointers (specifically these (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=404553&postcount=27) posts (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=362436&postcount=3)).{QUOTE-> As of now, I have COTSE, secure-tunnel and FindNot on my short list. Sensible ? <-QUOTE}The Swedish-based Relakks service may be worth considering too. Others have complained about intermittent performance issues in the past, but they may have improved now.

JAP's commercial service JonDonym (https://www.jondos.de/en/) (sounds more like a brand of condom than an privacy service...) is another option - it should be able to provide better performance than JAP itself (they do mention minimum speeds of 7-15KB/s, good for web access but P2P users should probably look elsewhere) and looks cheap enough to warrant a trial. They also plan to allow payment via PaySafeCard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paysafecard) which would allow effectively anonymous purchase (any plans to offer a similar option XeroBank?).

[eternalbeta]

{QUOTE-> Do you take over every topic on privacy, XeroBank (the guy)? <-QUOTE}

I have no problem with his contributions as he is knowledgeable on the subject and correctly identifies himself as Xerobank, he doesn't do so "anonymously".

[eternalbeta]

{QUOTE-> Swedish-based Relakks service may be worth considering too. Others have complained about intermittent performance issues in the past, but they may have improved now. <-QUOTE}

I've used them in the past and in principle they were OK although every now en then you would lose connection with their service while your internet went on in non-anonymous mode.

What is worse though, if confirmed, Xerobank mentioned a 100% DNS leak otherwise I would use them again as it is a low cost service (even on a montly basis if you like).

[Paranoid2000]

DNS leaks can be a concern if you think that your connection is being actively monitored (i.e. someone specifically looking at every packet you send or receive). However if your goal is avoiding data retention, it should not be an issue - no ISP is going to spend the resources necessary to log every DNS query generated by every user. Aside from the huge quantities of data involved, it would affect the performance of their DNS servers and a DNS query alone could not serve as proof since pings/traceroutes to a domain will trigger them.

[eternalbeta]

Thanks P2K for putting the DNS leak issue in perspective. As always, your contributions are very much appreciated. ;D

[SteveTX]

P2K,

While the problem of the DNS leaks in slightly concerning, perhaps more so if you are German (and they are storing all connection data, and maybe DNS, on Jan 1 2009), that isn't the main problem itself. If the company is willing to be so cavalier to let all security be weak externally, that begs the question as to what they do internally where they aren't being monitored.

[Reve_Etrange]

I eventually settled for Cotse's SOCKS subscription ($10-ish), and so far so good. Connection speed is alright, and support got back to me within 24h when I asked for them. They provide several mail services that may come in handy, like email addresses [xxx]@[yournick].cotse.net (useful for registering on websites and you don't want to be spammed to death). There is some other stuff thrown in with the subscription, like web hosting, that I have not tested. All in all, it feels like these guys are good *NIX admins that have set up a solid infrastructure (so it's no big deal to them to offer various extra services), and they focus on doing that well.

[Webby]

How about Torrent Freedom, and it's fast ;D

http://www.torrentfreedom.com/

Webby

[MikeNAS]

{QUOTE-> I eventually settled for Cotse's SOCKS subscription ($10-ish), and so far so good. Connection speed is alright, and support got back to me within 24h when I asked for them. They provide several mail services that may come in handy, like email addresses [xxx]@[yournick].cotse.net (useful for registering on websites and you don't want to be spammed to death). There is some other stuff thrown in with the subscription, like web hosting, that I have not tested. All in all, it feels like these guys are good *NIX admins that have set up a solid infrastructure (so it's no big deal to them to offer various extra services), and they focus on doing that well. <-QUOTE}

COTSE looks good but this isn't ok to me:

* No p2p or filesharing. Incoming connections are the problem with these services, thousands of machines trying to connect becomes like a DoS attack to the SSH server.

So I can't even download or share legal files :(

[LockBox]

{QUOTE-> COTSE looks good but this isn't ok to me:

* No p2p or filesharing. Incoming connections are the problem with these services, thousands of machines trying to connect becomes like a DoS attack to the SSH server.

So I can't even download or share legal files :( <-QUOTE}

That's how they keep their prices about 1/3 of others providing these services.

Torrentfreedom is interesting. Canada though - ehh.

edit: They claim to be in The Netherlands. Their WHOIS info is Private Registration through Network Solutions. According to WHOIS the servers are in Canada - not The Netherlands.

[MikeNAS]

{QUOTE-> That's how they keep their prices about 1/3 of others providing these services.

Torrentfreedom is interesting. Canada though - ehh.

edit: They claim to be in The Netherlands. Their WHOIS info is Private Registration through Network Solutions. According to WHOIS the servers are in Canada - not The Netherlands. <-QUOTE}

https://unitethe.net/TorrentFreedom.html

This TorrentFreedom user video show that server is in The Netherlands.

[Paranoid2000]

{QUOTE-> ...like email addresses [xxx]@[yournick].cotse.net (useful for registering on websites and you don't want to be spammed to death). <-QUOTE}You may wish to check out SpamGourmet (www.spamgourmet.com) for this - unlimited aliases with the ability to shut down ones that receive spam and a few optional features to stop spammers from "gaming" the system. You do need to enable reply address masking (to ensure that replies are sent via SpamGourmet, concealing your real email - this is disabled by default) but apart from that, it's an excellent system and free also! (it does rely on donations however).

SpamGourmet isn't an email anonymizer though, so use it in combination with an anonymous address if you need that level of protection.

Hope all goes well with your stay at COTSE - that was one service I did seriously consider myself a while ago - increasingly draconian US legislation was what ultimately put me off.

[MikeNAS]

{QUOTE-> You may wish to check out SpamGourmet (www.spamgourmet.com) for this - unlimited aliases with the ability to shut down ones that receive spam and a few optional features to stop spammers from "gaming" the system. You do need to enable reply address masking (to ensure that replies are sent via SpamGourmet, concealing your real email - this is disabled by default) but apart from that, it's an excellent system and free also! (it does rely on donations however).

SpamGourmet isn't an email anonymizer though, so use it in combination with an anonymous address if you need that level of protection.

Hope all goes well with your stay at COTSE - that was one service I did seriously consider myself a while ago - increasingly draconian US legislation was what ultimately put me off. <-QUOTE}

SpamGourmet is very good. I have used that couple of years. Boxbe (http://www.boxbe.com/) is other good alternative...

[caspian]

{QUOTE-> https://unitethe.net/TorrentFreedom.html

This TorrentFreedom user video show that server is in The Netherlands. <-QUOTE}

Are they a US company?

[caspian]

{QUOTE-> They also plan to allow payment via PaySafeCard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paysafecard) which would allow effectively anonymous purchase (any plans to offer a similar option XeroBank?). <-QUOTE}

I looked at paysafe and it looks like they are strictly European (no US option). But is there actually any type of anonymous payment option in the US? I mean don't you have to show ID even when you buy a prepaid credit card or use Western Union? As far as I know, you have to prove who you are no matter what method you use.

[caspian]

{QUOTE-> DNS leaks can be a concern if you think that your connection is being actively monitored (i.e. someone specifically looking at every packet you send or receive). However if your goal is avoiding data retention, it should not be an issue - no ISP is going to spend the resources necessary to log every DNS query generated by every user. Aside from the huge quantities of data involved, it would affect the performance of their DNS servers and a DNS query alone could not serve as proof since pings/traceroutes to a domain will trigger them. <-QUOTE}

Oh. I thought ISP's automatically logged all of the websites that you visit.

[LockBox]

{QUOTE-> I looked at paysafe and it looks like they are strictly European (no US option). But is there actually any type of anonymous payment option in the US? I mean don't you have to show ID even when you buy a prepaid credit card or use Western Union? As far as I know, you have to prove who you are no matter what method you use. <-QUOTE}

You don't have to show ID to purchase the most popular gift cards - the Simon Gift Card (available from Simon Mall properties) and OneGreatGiftCard (available at Macerich Mall properties). You walk up to customer service, hand them cash and get your card. It's that easy and that quick. They both work fine on the Internet with no problems. As for the pre-paid cards you buy at places like Walgreens, CVS and the like, they don't require ID, but you must register online with a social security number. The key word here is "a" and I'll leave it at that. If you're serious about your privacy you won't register your cards from your home/work IP and do it from a public hotspot. Do everything associated with your cards in this way, or, you can trust a VPN like XeroBank, Relakks, COTSE and others.

[Paranoid2000]

{QUOTE-> Oh. I thought ISP's automatically logged all of the websites that you visit. <-QUOTE}Website connections and DNS queries are different types of traffic. While visiting a website will normally trigger a DNS query (to find the site's IP address, unless it has been cached from a previous query), most other network activities will do this too (email access, pings, etc). Therefore logging DNS traffic would not provide a reliable indication of online activity (a DNS query of domain "X.com" could not prove that you subsequently visited "X.com's Guide to Being an Internet Subversive") and it would not provide the level of detail (like the actual page of a site) that logging web traffic would.

[caspian]

{QUOTE-> You don't have to show ID to purchase the most popular gift cards - the Simon Gift Card (available from Simon Mall properties) and OneGreatGiftCard (available at Macerich Mall properties). You walk up to customer service, hand them cash and get your card. It's that easy and that quick. They both work fine on the Internet with no problems. As for the pre-paid cards you buy at places like Walgreens, CVS and the like, they don't require ID, but you must register online with a social security number. The key word here is "a" and I'll leave it at that. If you're serious about your privacy you won't register your cards from your home/work IP and do it from a public hotspot. Do everything associated with your cards in this way, or, you can trust a VPN like XeroBank, Relakks, COTSE and others. <-QUOTE}

Wonderful! Thanks for explaining that.

[Jon Lund Rasmussen]

You can get a month for free at Relakks.com - it's a swedish service and it works very well!

https://www.relakks.com/

Only EUR 50.00 for 12 months.

[MikeNAS]

{QUOTE-> You can get a month for free at Relakks.com - it's a swedish service and it works very well!

https://www.relakks.com/

Only EUR 50.00 for 12 months. <-QUOTE}

Yeah but I (we?) don't want to use PPTP.

[Jon Lund Rasmussen]

{QUOTE-> Yeah but I (we?) don't want to use PPTP. <-QUOTE}

Okay, sorry, should've read the thread... you probably give reason to that somewhere in this thread, so will read instead of ask ;)

[Reve_Etrange]

It's okay, PPTP is not a no go for me.
However, several people advised me against relakks, based on their poor support and quality of service - according to them.

[fuzzylogic]

you could always give it a try, a month trial will certainly give you an idea of the service. Relakks wasn't the best service, its good enough to surf with, i had it for a month but its constant dropouts were a pain. it may of improved since i've used it.

[Jon Lund Rasmussen]

{QUOTE-> you could always give it a try, a month trial will certainly give you an idea of the service. Relakks wasn't the best service, its good enough to surf with, i had it for a month but its constant dropouts were a pain. it may of improved since i've used it. <-QUOTE}

Hmm... yeah I have to say, for the time I've tried it, it hasn't been completely stable. Sometimes it can't connect and one time it just lost connection.

[SafetyFirst]

{QUOTE->

I didn't know FindNot; does it have a good reputation?
...

As of now, I have COTSE, secure-tunnel and FindNot on my short list. Sensible ? <-QUOTE}

http://www.privacy.li/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=825

[Genady Prishnikov]

{QUOTE-> http://www.privacy.li/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=825 <-QUOTE}

You point us to Privacy.LIE? They are the single most hated and despised provider of these kinds of services.

[Pleonasm]

I have used Total Net Shield (https://www.anonymizer.com/consumer/products/total_net_shield/) for several years, and am quite pleased with the service. It is fast and reliable (but not inexpensive), and technical support is excellent.

[SafetyFirst]

{QUOTE-> You point us to Privacy.LIE? They are the single most hated and despised provider of these kinds of services. <-QUOTE}
Reve_Etrange asked about Findnot's reputation and I thought those posts might be helpful.

Now would you tell us something about Privacy.li that we don't know? Do you have any proofs to support your statement? What do you base your claims on?

Thank you.

[Genady Prishnikov]

Not to be flip, but a simple Google search will give you plenty to read.

[fuzzylogic]

just look at some of their topics and you'll just see how outrageous and downright racist they are at times, a golden one has to be how all the rich are jewish and how they are apart of some new world order (http://www.privacy.li/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=808) to how 40,000 were in the WTC and not one died (http://www.privacy.li/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=804), just read the general news section for some great conspiracies, if you believe this then go ahead, everyone else avoid it like the plague.

getting back on topic, privacy services are all up to what you are trying to protect and how much trust you place in one or more systems, there isn't a perfect solution from being completely anonymous. If anything these systems will only tools that can help protect you privacy from the perils and its up to you to use some common sense in how you protect your online information and how big your imprint on the internet is.

I believe this thread will become a flame war long before any conclusion is drawn so let me sum up the information here.

Depending upon what you need will depend upon what service is offered. They are only as good as you are at using them.

Web based proxy(proxify, the-cloak, megaproxy): services like these conceal you ip from any web site you visit. however your isp will still see what you are doing unless its uses SSL and they are not perfect is concealing data tracking and retention. as pointed above pops and such will still reveal your true ip address.

HTTP proxy (Cotse): move you entire web broswing session through a server, but again unless encrypted are only as good as web based proxy.

SSH tunnel(anonymizer total net shield, secure tunnel): much like above but these are encrypted sessions are they protect not only you ip address but againest tracking, data retention and you isp cannot see anything more than your connect to that server. unfortunately you need to configure any application to use this connection.

VPN (relakks, swissvpn, xerobank, metropipe, findnot, etc): top of pile when coming to anonymity on the web, these will push all communications to the web regardless of application through these connections, thus all connections push through this connection and no configurations are required, speeds are all dependent upon where the server is located.

I left out logs for one good reason, everything on the web generates a log, and as such how these logs are dealt with is dependent upon policy and where the service is located, If this is a big deal to you then avoid countries like the USA and UK and focus on countries like sweden and the netherlands. Through again it all depends upon what you looking at and how legal it is, if you have nothing to worry about if keep on the straight and narrow.

Feel free to add to this, this is only my understanding and a few things may of been left out. Make sure you look at the policies regarding a protenial service and good luck. (/rant mode off)

[SteveTX]

Just to add some more info to help people make informed decisions, I would like to put forward some more information I found recently. SecureTunnel, whom I like as some of the best regarding speed (1mbps+), use multi-hop SSH. However, all the hops are in the same datacenter in Virginia (Langley? heh), so no wonder the QoS was good across the network. Additionally, they may developing an OpenVPN solution sometime in the future, but I have no idea when that may be. So that sheds some light on info we didn't have before.

Fuzzy, i suggest taking anonymizer, relakks and findnot off the list, they aren't very serious about security at all, but you probably know why.

Read everything, ask a lot of questions, take all the answers with a grain of salt.

-Steve

[fuzzylogic]

thats for the added information xerobank about secure tunnel, another good service. The reason i'm not going to remove anonymizer/relakks/findnot is for one fact, they are choices for people to research and find out whether or not they are suitable to their own needs. Relakks for sure is a poor choice, anonymizer fills the gap for people whom like to have a solution there and forget about it (many here use total net shield, anonymous surfing i'm not sure), and findnot i've never really found any solid truth.

thats how people learn by looking at choices and researching them, for that reason i will leave them be.

Something i didn't add in my last post was anonymous networks. The three are TOR, JAP and I2P. Most well known is the TOR network, which works with a 3 hop proxy jumps, all whom add another layer of encryption which ends at the exit node. it chooses a different 3 way hop for both upload and downloads which change every 10 minutes, this has the advantage of making it harder to trace. however the TOR network is not without fault, it is maintained by volunteers and therefore the burden of trust is put on unknown volunteers, some whom have used information gathered for any use. JAP uses the same 3 proxy hop (called mixes) with encryption but these mixes are known both to the user and JAP but which proxy will mix the data around and send it on to the next mix. this way data cannot be traced to any one user. the JAP network has both a free and paid version which only differs in speed and access to better proxy chains. the next one is I2P, this uses encrypted tunnels of various hops. the network is entirely independent and uses peers to maintain tunnels. the network is in a pre-alpha stage and the developers maintain that the network is not for people whom are serious about anonymity. for more info click here (http://www.i2p2.de/how_tunnelrouting)

theres some more information for anyone looking at anonymous services, be aware those that they are not quick as the commerical services and thus don't abuse them as they are maintained by people for web browsing only and not for high bandwith like youtube, rapidshare or p2p.

[Paranoid2000]

{QUOTE-> JAP uses the same 3 proxy hop (called mixes) <-QUOTE}It's worth noting that JAP's default setup (Dresden-Dresen) is effectively just a single hop, though the other routes (http://anon.inf.tu-dresden.de/status.php?lang=en) do involve 3 servers.

The main difference between JAP and Tor's encryption (AFAIK) is that JAP uses a single layer of encryption between each mix, with mix servers decrypting incoming traffic and re-encrypting it for outgoing. With Tor, an encrypted channel is set up with each node in turn which means that traffic to node 1 has 3 levels of encryption, node 1->2 has 2 levels and node 2->3 has one level.

Tor's implementation protects users from malicious interception/alteration of traffic by nodes 1 and 2 since they only deal with encrypted traffic (there's no way to do this with exit node 3 though, which has to send traffic in the clear). With JAP, mixes 1 and 2 may be able to view traffic contents but the potential for abuse is limited by JAP only allowing "trusted" operators to participate.

[caspian]

Why is it that everyone always mentions Relakks and Findnot as the alternatives for VPNs? And I am *VERY* confused as to why anyone would consider Anonymizer. Aren't they the company that was just bought out by government contractors? Wouldn't that be like paying someone your hard earned money to neatly collect all of your personal data? I have also seen a couple of other ones mentioned: https://www.intl-alliance.com/services.html and http://www.torrentfreedom.com. I guess these are both offshore. The torrent one is suppose to be fast.

Anyway, I just got my one year XB cherry popped and they sent new credentials. I finally figured out what to do with them, hehe! I think it is by far the best service available but I like to keep some other choices around.....partly just for fun. I wish I had a background in computer technology. I am thoroughly amazed by it all.

I also have one of those Metropipe Tunnelers (?) I have only opened 3 or 4 times. I open it with Returnil activated because I don't like anything making any alterations to my computer. XP Pro is barely noticeable. I do have a 20MB connection so it does slow me down a bit. So if I am downloading a moving in rapidshare, I sometimes download the first split link (ending in.001) under XB and then disable it for the rest. I can download 15 links at a time fast fast fast! I am pretty sure that you have to have that first link to join the rest.

Also, a big reason that I trust XB and Steve is because I have read that he is associated with the Cult of the Dead Cow and Hacktivismo. I haven't really looked into them that much yet, but from what I have read, the CDC are are free thinkers, very creative (a huge plus for me), and they have a really cool sense of humor....HILARIOUS! I love it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDc_communications

I certainly don't get the impression that they are Christian Right Fundies:argh: , nor do I get the impression that they are power hungry government thugs:doubt: . They appear to be very serious about human rights issues and I admire that. They are actually doing something besides just complaining about it. Bravo! So despite all of the criticism and lack of trust that some people have, I feel far more comfortable with Steve than I do any other service. People complain about not knowing who XB is, but Steve is here. Where are the Reps from Findnot, Relakks, torrentfreedom, or International Alliance? (I'll pass on Anonymizer)

And of course I am impressed with Tor and I appreciate the EFF. Tor is just too slow for me to use often.

[fuzzylogic]

have a search for torrentfreedom will provide that the owner is somewhat of a shady character, as for the service i have little knowledge of it. For the other services i use them for reference and not a recommodation. Relakks has the advantage of been in sweden and is very cheap but lacks any support or constant connection. i understand people do not trust anonymizer, its in the US, has a history of co-operating with US agencies and will not allow people to abuse its services, however it does provide privacy against data retention (i.e google), websites logging and does provide a degree of privacy for the average joe. Serious privacy advocates will need bigger and better protection and will look else were.

the troubles with xb are not with the service but the lack of information that has been released about it. you can't find any options on the service beyond a few (and greatly repeated) PR articles about forecoming services that at the moment has not released. steve talks alot about xb being the mecca of all anonymous networks but has only released a network that is very much like the competition. I have tried a plus account which is prefect for web browsing but there are a few that offer exactly the same thing at even cheaper prices. I haven't tried the VPN offer but i'm not paying 35 dollars a month for VPN account. Even the beta was a disappointment, i was expecting a TOR like setup for entry/exit nodes but only found a clone of findnot like system setting up to different servers in different countries. months ago xb 2.0 should of been released and threads like this would be non-existent, but no its 3 months later and xb 2.0 continues to be a dream. what respect steve had for his project is evaporated from the constant lack of transparency, straight information and time put into xb. good luck to those whom use it but i've moved onto bigger and better systems.

[Hillsboro]

I think Fuzzy is right in most regards. Xerobank is much too expensive and 2.0 seems to have become vaporware. I think given their pricing scheme they have priced themselves out of the market and I imagine they are in cash flow bind given the global economy. They are a new kid on the block and it looks like a one-man operation and there is a lack of transparency. Lot of salesmanship but little else. What they are trying to do is not exactly leading edge technology. They are using openvpn just as Findnot, Steganos, et al are doing and server farms in other countries that I suspect are the same ones used by Findnot. There is just so much demand for these services and it looks like Xerobank got into the game a little too late to compete effectively and economically.

One thing to be said for Swiss VPN is the price and it is always running and it does offer EAP-TTLS support. Relakks has no support, and is down quite a bit.

Caspian mentioned a lack of presence here by the other VPN providers with the exception of Xerobank which is a startup and the price is right for them here. The fact is the others have an established track record, good or bad, and have their own forums or support channels. So there is no need to be here.

[SteveTX]

{QUOTE-> So there is no need to be here. <-QUOTE}

Hillsboro,

This is a neutral forum, a perfect place. We're all on equal footing here, whereas some other places inconvenient or unflattering threads can disappear. Hosting our own forum isn't an issue, it just isn't needed right now. I don't think this server is taking much of a pounding from this thread, do you?

I'm not sure if you've checked the website out recently, but you may find a little more info there, specifically about the xerobank team. We've also been around a lot longer than most of the other guys, we just came together to form this service. We've been operating for about 6 years under private label. For the cheaper services out there, you're getting what you pay for. Xero offers a professional service meant to withstand everything short of global adversaries, the others out there can't stop leaking DNS requests, or operate entirely out of a single DC or jurisdiction. They don't have custom fabricated FOSS security software, multi-jurisdictional hops, multiplexed traffic for low observability, intelligent routing, hot backups, defense in depth encryption on servers, anonymized payment, identity/account separation, decentralization of administration, distribution of servers, self-destruct for mail and data, sweet-spot crowding for good anonymity, or immunity from surveillance societies. From what I can tell, there isn't any competition, everything else out there is just a commercial private proxy, this is real anonymity. Naturally some people are going to confuse how proud I am of our achievement with salesmanship because they don't understand these massive differences in offerings, probably because nobody else has ever offered them. Of course I'm proud of what we are doing here. This will advance the entire playing field of commercial and public anonymity design, we'll all be safer because of it. In fact, we already are.

[fuzzylogic]

its seems very suspicious that as soon as a few people complain PUFF up comes a new website with people other than steve running the show and alot of new promises. i'd love to see another business just dump their product range and throw up another website. i'll give credit were its due, and say its a very good step. however it promises more now than ever and seems to suggest that its not going to deliver its previous promises.

i can see the pride and principals that you stand for, how about getting other team members together and posting on this forum, otherwise its looks like another attempt making xerobank look at something that it really isn't.

[SteveTX]

Well I told you new services and details were coming, people ask where they are, and then you see the new website and suddenly you're surprised? Of course, I can understand impatience for something you've been anticipating.

Regarding other members, we post wherever we like. I sometimes post on wilders, and likewise the rest do their own things (or don't). Perhaps I can ask Kyle to occaisonally inhabit the xB Machine thread since it is mostly in his court now. I remember he was laughing at one of wide-eyed rants in the other xb thread, so I know he lurks. Kyle, are you reading this?

[Genady Prishnikov]

{QUOTE-> We've been operating for about 6 years under private label. <-QUOTE}

A PERFECT example of your many unfounded claims. You throw this stuff out and then come up with a reason why you can't talk about it.

Question: Could you explain your "private label" comment above? If not, chalk it up to another wild claim from your puff posts for Xerobank.

As for not "needing" your own support forum yet - that says a lot.

Your making it sound as if it's okay to use Mr. Wilders bandwidth for your marketing and support - also says a lot.

[traxx75]

http://www.trilightzone.org/

Has anyone had any personal experience with these guys or know anyone that has used them? I haven't been able to find much at all on them so far except seeing their name dragged into a poop-flinging match surrounding privacy.li, with whom they are apparently affiliated.

I haven't seen any evidence of this so far and a quick search of the privacy.li forums hasn't shown anything, either.

I'm not assuming for a minute that they're a completely anonymous service but they don't seem _too_ bad in terms of services provided and price :)

thx

traxx

[MikeNAS]

{QUOTE-> http://www.trilightzone.org/

Has anyone had any personal experience with these guys or know anyone that has used them? I haven't been able to find much at all on them so far except seeing their name dragged into a poop-flinging match surrounding privacy.li, with whom they are apparently affiliated.

I haven't seen any evidence of this so far and a quick search of the privacy.li forums hasn't shown anything, either.

I'm not assuming for a minute that they're a completely anonymous service but they don't seem _too_ bad in terms of services provided and price :)

thx

traxx <-QUOTE}

I really like Trilightzone SSH Privacy Tunnel & TriShell service options. So much what I can do with it and price is "very" cheap. Now I'm waiting what other people thought about it :D No I don't have it... yet.


All major operating systems supported like Unix, Linux, OSX, Windows and more.
As a general note - our major systems are realtime on drive level encrypted !
Professional 24/7 Support - no ticket or robotic approach !
All connections use extremely secure encrypted SSH v2 tunnels for all your traffic.
Virtually all applications supported like IRC, P2P, MSN, Newsgroups, FTP and so on.
All proxies are "High Anonymity" or "Elite Proxies" - no one can determine if you're using a proxy at all.
All available proxies allow ALL ports to be reached - including any exotic SSL ports.
Anonymous surfing through Socks 4/5 Proxy - unlike other providers no extra charge !
Anonymous surfing through Privoxy / Squid Proxy linked, extra protection filtering malicious data/ads.
Anonymous surfing through Privoxy / the Tor Service, extra protection and anonymity through Tor.
Anonymous surfing through Squid proxy, standard anonymous surfing.
Our DNS is used and not that of your provider ! - No DNS Leakage !
SSL Webmail including your own email account accessible using pop3/smtp over ssh !
Strong Defenses in place while using our Service ! - against worms, virus, malicious sites, crackers ...
Full Tor entrypoint to the Tor network for all your needs - You can connect directly to Tor from any server !
Your IP is never revealed using our services and is safeguarded at all times.
NO LOGGING of your surfing & outbound connections - no byte is stored unlike most providers !
Compile & Run your own tools like BNC's, Eggdrop ... - FULL programming environment included.
Use up to 6 background processes at the same time.
no bandwidth limitations, only fair use policy and high speed connections.
Start with 200MB diskspace, need more ? Tell us !
Standard tools like Screen, BitchX, IRSSI and so on.
Solid & tested tools available to encrypt any important data.
If you wish custom solutions like a private and unique IP let us know !
Hardened from the outside & inside to protect our clients.
Other users can't dig in the system to find info about you.
We provide you with free security advise whenever needed ! - every case is unique, so is our approach !
Check our forum Tri News section for deals and updates !
We don't oversell so performance cannot suffer !
We developed a clear howto document with screenshots showing how to use your account - We keep updating the document based on feedback.

[Pleonasm]

{QUOTE-> I really like Trilightzone SSH Privacy Tunnel & TriShell service options <-QUOTE}
I am pleased to see the increase in competition for anonymity services—this can only be a positive development for all who are concerned with anonymity and privacy in today’s world.

Is anyone aware of a “compare & contrast” of Trilightzone to XeroBank—or, more generally, a comprehensive review article of the available anonymity services?

Thank you.

[traxx75]

I have found one possible link between trilightzone.org and privacy.li :doubt:

Both sites claim to develop SSH Tunnelling software known as "TheTube":

http://www.trilightzone.org/board/about2133.html
http://www.trilightzone.org/downloads/TheTube.zip

http://www.privacy.li/news.htm [March 6, 2006 news]
http://www.privacy.li/TheTube-Tunneler_tool_for_the_masses.htm/privacyLI_TheTube.zip

There are some claims (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.cotse/browse_thread/thread/7b4094c5c7ce7ef5/bf49ba2158054a80?lnk=st&q=trilightzone#bf49ba2158054a80) that trilightzone.org are resellers of privacy.li services but I can't find any solid evidence of this. In case anyone wanted to do some further digging, the following privacy.li boxes were gleaned from their news page:

dark.lastunicorn.info - 213.133.97.162 [DE]
grizzly.ns666.com - 202.67.154.148 [HK]
bull1.hereno.info - 124.217.230.36 [MY]

If you can match these to any known trilightzone.org boxes then you might have a winner :)

[caspian]

{QUOTE-> I have found one possible link between trilightzone.org and privacy.li :doubt:

Both sites claim to develop SSH Tunnelling software known as "TheTube":

http://www.trilightzone.org/board/about2133.html
http://www.trilightzone.org/downloads/TheTube.zip

http://www.privacy.li/news.htm [March 6, 2006 news]
http://www.privacy.li/TheTube-Tunneler_tool_for_the_masses.htm/privacyLI_TheTube.zip

There are some claims (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.cotse/browse_thread/thread/7b4094c5c7ce7ef5/bf49ba2158054a80?lnk=st&q=trilightzone#bf49ba2158054a80) that trilightzone.org are resellers of privacy.li services but I can't find any solid evidence of this. In case anyone wanted to do some further digging, the following privacy.li boxes were gleaned from their news page:

dark.lastunicorn.info - 213.133.97.162 [DE]
grizzly.ns666.com - 202.67.154.148 [HK]
bull1.hereno.info - 124.217.230.36 [MY]

If you can match these to any known trilightzone.org boxes then you might have a winner :) <-QUOTE}

Thanks for the warning. Seriously!