Please help w/new graphics card & system build

[innerpeace]

Hi, I have a newly installed Nvidia GeForce 8500GT. I also installed driver version 162.18 which looks to be the newest according to their website. This is the first card I have ever installed. I've heard someone mention a burn in period. Is this neccessary and if so, what do I need to do?

I've heard the temps run high on this card, I checked with speedfan and if I'm reading it correctly, it's showing 56C. If this is too hot, what can I do to lower the temps?

Also, do I need any of the optional software included on the cd and mentioned in the utility tab of the second link I posted? Can I also disable some or all of the autostarts that the driver installed? I have an emachines W3410 with XP home and 1 gig of RAM. Any other help or pointers will be greatly appreciated.

http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p_spec.asp?model=NX8500GT-TD256E_OC&class=vga

http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?func=proddesc&prod_no=1228&maincat_no=130&cat2_no=136&cat3_no=138

Thanks,
innerpeace

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> I've heard someone mention a burn in period. Is this neccessary? <-QUOTE}
Not, it isn't neccessary
{QUOTE-> it's showing 56C. If this is too hot, what can I do to lower the temps? <-QUOTE}
It's OK. You may want to check temps while you're gaming or running a stress tool (http://www.daionet.gr.jp/~masa/rthdribl/)
{QUOTE-> Also, do I need any of the optional software included on the cd and mentioned in the utility tab of the second link I posted? <-QUOTE}
They aren't neccessary and they're mostly useless.
{QUOTE-> Can I also disable some or all of the autostarts that the driver installed? <-QUOTE}
Nvidia Forceware Tweak Guide (http://www.tweakguides.com/NVFORCE_1.html)
Tidying Up (http://www.tweakguides.com/NVFORCE_4.html)
:thumb:

[Hairy Coo]

Hi Innerpeace,

Firstly forget about any myth of burning in a card,thats a new one!

I am running an 8600GT card,similar to yours and all cards do run fairly hot,compared to a CPU.
Your temp.isnt unreasonable ,depending on the ambient temp and I wouldnt worry about it unless it gets over 60c regularly.
My card has been running at about 53c for about a year without any problems.

If it does concern you or gets appreciably hotter,you can either increase the size of a nearby fan or better still,install a VGA fan,similar to here (http://www.pccasegear.com.au/category314_1.htm).(local site only)
At this stage,I would just leave it, the temp may drop a bit,after a short time in any case.

Its a good idea to install the nVidia Control Panel and access it from desktop Properties-settings-advanced -nVidia 8500,which can be done even if the autorun is disabled.This way no resources are generally used.
The Panel does have various useful adjustments for color display,resolution,video color settings

At one stage ,I disabled all Nvidia autoruns from starting up without any effects-they are mainly for viewing the NVidia Control Panel and for tweaking.CC Cleaner is a simple way to do this,under Tools-Startup.
You will probably find the nVidiaCplDaemon will revert-doesnt matter.
They do use a fair bit of resources,so disabling is not a bad idea.

[innerpeace]

Thank you Lucas for your help and the great information. I feel a little better about the temps now. I will have a look a the tweak guides and see what I can do.

Also, the GPU fan points downwards and blows through/across the heat sink fins towards the back of the computer. Would it be useful to remove a empty pci expansion bracket below the installed card and drill holes in it to let the warm air escape? I would just remove the bracket, but when it's warm here, a few small spiders occasionally find there way into the pc.

Thanks,
innerpeace

[lucas1985]

That design allows the fan (in single-slot cards) to suck fresh air and generate a good air pressure over the heatsink. Other designs (http://techreport.com/articles.x/13772) occupy two slots and do what you want to achieve (let the hot air scape)

[innerpeace]

Hi Hairy Coo :),

Thanks and it's good to hear two confirmations that the burn in period is a myth.

The card I have is supposed to be OC'd which I didn't know until after I bought it LOL. I would say that is part of the reason it's running a little warm. The vga fans look interesting. I'm really trying to keep from ordering any more hardware for awhile. I did get 2 round IDE cables for my internal burner and HDD to hopefully keep things a little cooler.

I have the Control Panel installed. I've already disabled it from the system tray and I thought the desktop properties. I see what you mean about getting to it though. I did the same with my old ATI chip.

I did see the auto starts within CCleaner. Since I reinstalled XP, I've tried to stick with one autostart program so I will see what I can disable with Autoruns.

CCleaner shows:
NvCplDaemon
NvMediaCenter
WinSys2 (I'm not sure where this came from)
nwiz

[Hairy Coo]

WinSys2 may be a trojan-better check it out.

The other three are nVidia

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> That design allows the fan (in single-slot cards) to suck fresh air and generate a good air pressure over the heatsink. Other designs (http://techreport.com/articles.x/13772) occupy two slots and do what you want to achieve (let the hot air scape) <-QUOTE}
I can't afford that one Lucas :'( . I see what you mean though and it's a great design. This card has to last a while and I will probably use it in my next computer since it's DX10 compatible. It was $65 US and it has a $20 mail-in-rebate. Much better than my on-board ATI Radeon Xpress 200.

Thanks

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> WinSys2 may be a trojan-better check it out.

The other three are nVidia <-QUOTE}
Thanks Hairy Coo, I'm checking it out now.

[Hairy Coo]

Its either a trojan or its part of the 8500 install.
If it only appeared since installing nVidia.you are probably OK.

See post half way down-MrGenie here (http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=32&threadid=2032070&enterthread=y)

[innerpeace]

Thanks! I think your right. I remember glancing over the literature that mentioned Dynamic Overclocking Technology. When I look in Autoruns it say DOT MFC application and in the properties mentions DOT.exe. I will upload to VT and see what they say. I know I scanned the driver download with Avira, SAS and A-squared before unzipping it and after unzipping it. I'll edit this post when I'm finished.

Edit: The files had been submitted before and show as clean 0/32. I checked winsys2.exe and winsys.exe.

[innerpeace]

As a quick update, I played Battlefront for a little while and then checked the temps. The GPU was at 64C and my computer processor was at 48C. Is this acceptable? I'm off to bed for now.

Thanks,
innerpeace

[DVD+R]

I installed the GIGABYTE nVidia GEForce 8600GT on my new rig with superb results,after I downloaded the GeForce Series 8 Ultra drivers for it at nVidia ;D

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> As a quick update, I played Battlefront for a little while and then checked the temps. The GPU was at 64C and my computer processor was at 48C. Is this acceptable? I'm off to bed for now.

Thanks,
innerpeace <-QUOTE}

Obviously this game is stressing both,so probably OK,certainly the CPU.
I find its best to ignore the GPU or it will drive you crazy;D
Personally I would be looking at a card fan sooner or later if it runs that hot often,it would effect the whole system temp. to some extent.
For a start, I would fit an expansion slot cooler like THIS (http://www.pccasegear.com.au/prod2852.htm)-cheap and very easy to fit.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> I installed the GIGABYTE nVidia GEForce 8600GT on my new rig with superb results,after I downloaded the GeForce Series 8 Ultra drivers for it at nVidia ;D <-QUOTE}

Are these Ultra special drivers?

[markymoo]

I wouldn't worry about your temperature too much i heard some run 8500GT upto 100C overclocked and that would i'm sure shorten the lifespan of the card. If you want a great vga cooler to bring it down alot there is this http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/thhr.html which you can also attach a 120mm fan to it and probably can use it on your next card. ThermalRight are quality. A cheap way but not so effective is buy a pci card thats 2x120mm fans mounted that you put in the next pci slot and point at the graphics but this could just circulate the hot air already and not make a hardly a difference. Ideally you need to get rid of the hot air in the case first and suck in cold air. That case is not ideal for air intake. The best way to cool a case is to create a vacuum effect with slight pressure, cold air from the front and hot air out the back. You probably have to do some DIY on your case to lower the temps. When i had this http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/890/3/page_3_in_the_box/index.html it wasn't the heat that was so much the problem which was 65C on full load it was the noise from the fan so i ended up watercooling it and cut the temps in half and no noise. That was bliss. Is your card noisy playing a game?

Can you play a game like Company of Heros http://uk.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/companyofheroes/index.html with everything turned on full and is it still playable? Download Fraps http://www.fraps.com/ This will monitor your FPS(framerate) in your game.

[innerpeace]

DVD+R, What is the difference in the Ultra drivers?

Hairy Coo, I'll have a look at the coolers and or fans. As an experiment, I removed the PCI bracket below the card and it's idling at 54C now. There is a lot of air coming out of the bracket slot now. I'll also try not to get to crazy about it :P.

markymoo, The card doesn't seem loud. I didn't think to listen when I played last night. I normally play with headphones on. At NewEgg, some people complained about the noise and others said it was quiet. One person also reported it running as warm as 70C so I guess it all depends on your machine.

I'll take a look at the different methods of cooling the card. I haven't tried any of the slightly newer games I have. There not installed yet. I did notice a big difference when playing BattleFront. I normally play on medium difficulty and I had to switch back to easy because it ran that much faster. I was gettin' my butt kicked :ouch:. I also noticed other special effects which I didn't see before. I'll see if I can install NFS Most Wanted tonight and see how it does.

Also, will the free version of FRAPS work ok. http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=149 I'm not going to worry too much about getting it perfect, but it's sort of fun knowing what my card and system can do.

Cheers

[Dieselman]

Those drivers are old. Go here for updated and tweaked drivers. I am currently using the 174.16's.

http://www.tweakforce.com/

As far as temp monitoring and overclocking and anything else you need to do. Rivatuner is the best tool.

http://downloads.guru3d.com/RivaTuner-v2.06-download-163.html

[markymoo]

I wouldn't spend anymore as it's in an e-machine. It be ok just accept it running hot and the sound isn't that bad. If you can get a FPS of between 30 and 60 that's ideal anything over is wasted as eye can't tell. The higher the resolution the lower the FPS. If you turn on anti-aliasing on full that gives you greater quality but will lower the FPS alot. So try everything on full settings and then first of all drop down anti-aliasing until above 30 FPS. If it run too slow turn anti-aliasing off and turn all other settings on full and bump up the anti-aliasing bit by bit. As i was saying the cpu might not be fast enough to catch up with everything on full. Just try to get the best graphics display and FPS between 30 and 60. Maintain your pc and tweak it to give more performance to run games faster. The reason it run faster on easy is because there be less graphics action to make it easier to play. So thats the point to know the FPS you could be running minimal graphics and too high FPS and not even using all the features. Cpu, Memory and Video affect FPS.

That's a really old version of FRAPS. Get this newer version
http://www.fraps.com/download.php

[innerpeace]

Thanks Dieselman and markymoo. I will have a look at what you suggested.

Last night, I install 'Need for Speed Most Wanted' and turned it up full. I left Vsync off because I wasn't sure was it does yet. I then ran a quick race which lasted 11 minutes. I didn't check the frame rate, but it ran great. I closed the games and checked the temp and the GPU was 80C and the CPU was 62. I know everybody gave great suggestions on coolers and fans. With knowing the above, would you advise to do something immediately?

I let the temps get down to normal and then booted to my normal everyday image. The computer wouldn't boot and just ran with all fans on high. I held the power button to turn off the computer and it wouldn't shutdown. It looped into another attempted boot with fans running on high, no BIOS or anything. I inserted one of my boot cd's and then pulled the plug. I waited a little bit the tried again and the same thing happened. It wouldn't even boot to my cds. I then waited about 20 mins. and the computer booted normally. What would cause this? Would it be the CMOS battery going bad?

Thanks for all your help,
innerpeace

Edit: How long will a graphics card continue to smell badly? It even makes me a little dizzy...

[Dieselman]

Your temps are fine. Most cards can hit 100 c is still be ok. You can set up Rivatuner to turn you fan at different speeds ant different temps. Such as I have mine to low at 55C, then medium at 60C, then full fan high at 65C. Works like a charm. Slot coolers do nothing in actuality. I leave me side cover off and have an Artic Cooler on top of my GPU. Artic Cooler,Thermatake, and Zalman all make very good coolers. Artic Cooler usually has the best and lowest temps. You don't need to reboot after gaming. I have been pc gaming for years. Send me a PM with any other questions you might have.

[innerpeace]

Thanks Dieselman, I'll look at Rivatuner and see about changing my fan speeds. I'm also going to try using a small fan blowing on my case while gaming.

[Dieselman]

This is the cooler I have on my 8800 GTX.

http://www.zalman.co.kr/ENG/product/Product_Read.asp?idx=276

[lucas1985]

innerpeace,
What PSU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_power_supply) do you have?

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> innerpeace,
What PSU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_power_supply) do you have? <-QUOTE}
Hi lucas,
It's a Antec EarthWatts 380. I bought it before my GPU because I heard that factory emachines PSU's weren't that good. http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=27380

FWIW, If your in the US, NewEgg has this for $34.99 while supplies last. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371005

Dieselman,
That's a nice cooler. I really like the looks of the Zalman models.

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> It's a Antec EarthWatts 380. <-QUOTE}
It sould be OK. I'd check cabling, contacts (RAM, heatsinks), clean dust before another gaming session.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> It sould be OK. I'd check cabling, contacts (RAM, heatsinks), clean dust before another gaming session. <-QUOTE}
Thanks! I'll take another look at the connections. I replaced 2 ribbon IDE cables with round one's at the same time I installed the GPU. Maybe one of them didn't get seated properly.

[Coolio10]

{QUOTE-> This is the cooler I have on my 8800 GTX.

http://www.zalman.co.kr/ENG/product/Product_Read.asp?idx=276 <-QUOTE}
Hehe looks like a sting ray.

The wire in the back and 2 sides :D

Wow 8800 GTX. You can probably play crysis?

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,

If your temps were 80c and 62c AFTER play,then they were certainly a lot higher whilst playing and maintining that high temp.
Could well be the BIOS shutting down because of the high temps.

I know these temps are considered almost normal at times by some,but depending on your other hardware and the case cooling capability,may well be too high for you.

If it happens frequently,would seriously consider better cooling-solutions such as an external fan pointing at the case,removing a slot cover etc,have no effect.

Probably not a worry at all until stressed.

[innerpeace]

Hairy Coo,

I'm ok with the temps when not gaming. The 80C (GPU) and 62C (CPU) while gaming bother me a little. The reason is it's not an extended play like for over an hour at a time. I definitely want the temps down some and I'm experimenting with the external fan which helps a little. I'll also consider removing a slot cover and I need to find out more of how to increase my case fan speed. I only installed Speedfan as a cautionary measure and I know nothing about how to use it and which fan is which.

About the BIOS shutting down. I thought about that too, but I let the temps come down to normal before I rebooted. But I guess something could have been triggered to shut down. I also notice that the BIOS screens at boot are appearing and disappearing much faster than ever before. I may have messed something up when trying to get the computer booted when it wouldn't. Another reason for quickness may be due to the 128MB freed up by installing the GPU. My factory onboard graphics was using the 128MB. I may just decide to reinstall XP again and this time make an clean image before I install my drivers. I didn't do that last time :ouch:.

By the way, how do you control your fan speeds?

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,
External fan and removing the slot cover dont help at all to any practical extent-pointless reinstalling XP for this-dont worry about the BIOS screen disappearing etc.
In your case -just turn your fans to max.
If your CPU isnt powerful-it may now be stressed beyond its normal capacity and causing the BIOS to shutdown
If you are happy just to leave as is until the shutdown happens next time ,this may be best,but if this happens often you may need additional fans INSIDE the case,unless you have detected some other hardware fault

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> If your CPU isnt powerful-it may now be stressed beyond its normal capacity and causing the BIOS to shutdown <-QUOTE}
I think you could be right. Someone else mentioned that my processor might end up being the bottleneck. I only have a AMD Athlon 64 3200+ (2.2GHz) and 1 Gig of DDR PC3200 CAS3 RAM. I'm also running the original BIOS, DX9c, drivers etc. that came with this machine (2 1/2 years old).

My computer sits 6 inches off the floor and it's always cool. The floor is carpet sitting on concrete. It's also Winter here in the US, so my computer temps aren't going to get any better. I'll see what I can do to decrease the comps temps. I'm also going to start collecting parts to build my first machine. One that can handle the card or a slightly better one. It will be a budget build.

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> I'm also going to start collecting parts to build my first machine. One that can handle the card or a slightly better one. It will be a budget build. <-QUOTE}
Check this one (http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14225/2). A cheap, but powerful rig for everything but the most demanding task :)

[Hairy Coo]

Maybe you have plenty of power etc-check the minimum specs for the card.
In the meantime dont worry unless it happens again.
Pretty cold in West Virginia?;D

[markymoo]

That smell is probably from the thermal paste heating up so much on the gfx/c making you dizzy. Collecting Parts? get a great case that is designed for cooling on your next build like an Antec case.

@Dieselman
The Thermalright Ultra gets a higher rating than the Zalman cooler.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> get a great case that is designed for cooling on your next build like an Antec case.
<-QUOTE}

P182 to be exact,my duo core is running at 27c.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Check this one (http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14225/2). A cheap, but powerful rig for everything but the most demanding task :) <-QUOTE}
Thanks for the link. Hmmm, I could use my ext. Seagate HDD, my new Pioneer burner and my new GPU and it would be under $300. I do like the Antec boxes, they look very well built.

{QUOTE-> Pretty cold in West Virginia? <-QUOTE}
Very! How's -13C sound :P

{QUOTE-> That smell is probably from the thermal paste heating up so much on the gfx/c making you dizzy. Collecting Parts? get a great case that is designed for cooling on your next build like an Antec case.
<-QUOTE}
Thanks, the smell isn't as bad tonight. I've been looking around at NewEgg and the Antec cases are sweet.

[markymoo]

if it -13 i surprised you getting high temps just stand the pc in the doorway lol. what is the ambient air temperature outside your case? that antec P182 is the original classic it should be very cheap now but theres others that just as good and better design and a few are budget. goto the Antec site. next month a new Intel motherboard chipset comes out, X48 which is what the X38 chipset should of been. so prices should drop on alot boards and Intel cut there prices on cpu chips in April so price falls again. A good time to buy.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> if it -13 i surprised you getting high temps just stand the pc in the doorway lol. <-QUOTE}

A polar bear might eat it;D

[Dieselman]

{QUOTE-> That smell is probably from the thermal paste heating up so much on the gfx/c making you dizzy. Collecting Parts? get a great case that is designed for cooling on your next build like an Antec case.

@Dieselman
The Thermalright Ultra gets a higher rating than the Zalman cooler. <-QUOTE}
I know but I didn't like the Thermalright.

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> Very! How's -13C sound :P <-QUOTE}
In the last winter (July) we reached that wind chill (temperature of -7º C). That was the coldest winter in fifty years and we saw snow (http://www.5900.com.ar/nieve.htm) for the first time in forty-one years :o

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> In the last winter (July) we reached that wind chill (temperature of -7º C). That was the coldest winter in fifty years and we saw snow for the first time in forty-one years :o <-QUOTE}
Standing on the Eiffel Tower?:)

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> Standing on the Eiffel Tower?:) <-QUOTE}
I'm not French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Mar%C3%ADa) ;D

[markymoo]

What do polar bears like to eat in the cold?

A brrrrrr grrrrrr

I experienced the first earthquake in my life 2 days ago. It was magnitude 5.6 first one in 25 years.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> if it -13 i surprised you getting high temps just stand the pc in the doorway lol. what is the ambient air temperature outside your case? that antec P182 is the original classic it should be very cheap now but theres others that just as good and better design and a few are budget. goto the Antec site. next month a new Intel motherboard chipset comes out, X48 which is what the X38 chipset should of been. so prices should drop on alot boards and Intel cut there prices on cpu chips in April so price falls again. A good time to buy. <-QUOTE}
Ambient temp around the case is probably in the mid 60's F. I have a lot of cool air leaking into my apartment 24/7.

Waiting a while before getting a MB or chip sounds like a good plan plus it gives me time to learn more about the processors. I like the idea of saving money too :).

{QUOTE-> A polar bear might eat it <-QUOTE}
LOL, no polar bears here, only black bears. A deer may nibble a bit on the case though.

[markymoo]

thats the problem with air cooling your pc temp is always higher than the ambient air temp around it. if you could somehow funnel that cold air from outside into your case that be great. heat rises so cutting a hole at the top would help the heat escape. if you smoke you could blow some smoke into the case to see how the air circulates and have better understanding of how the airflow travels and then adjust your fans in a better position. i now understand the meaning of your avatar in such a cold place. not robot but frozen man. 120mm fans are always useful even if you just point them downwards at your motherboard that helps cool the NB too as in Hairy Coo too. The gfx card giving off so much heat its heating up the inside of the case so much. Have you tried taking the lid off the case?

[innerpeace]

I just took the side off my case 5 minutes ago and the GPU temps went 56C to 50C and the CPU from 40C to 34C.

I don't smoke either, but thats a good trick

[Hairy Coo]

All as markymoo said ,seems like that hot air is being trapped so the best long term solution is to cut that hole in the case top,ideally mount an exhaust fan there, powered from inside the case .

Try to upgrade your internal fans to something larger.

A quick solution would be to buy an Antec p182 case and transfer the hardware-it comes with 3- 120mm fans and two more can be fitted!

You can always keep the case for when you upgrade

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> All as markymoo said ,seems like that hot air is being trapped so the best long term solution is to cut that hole in the case top,ideally mount an exhaust fan there, powered from inside the case . <-QUOTE}
Yes, you all are right. The air is being trapped. Temps have now declined to as low as 48C GPU and 29C CPU. The P182 Antec case is nice, very nice but it's $150 on sale at the site I shop at. The cheapest Antecs are $89 (P180 w/3 fans) and $79 (Solo w/1 fan). I think the Solo is the one I can get at the same price ($79) with the Antec 380watt PSU included. It's the one in the link that Lucas posted.

I will figure something out. Everyone gave very good advice and I have learned a lot. I will do a little more experimenting with the advice given. I'll look at adding a fan first and then go from there. Thanks to everyone that posted, your support is invaluable.

innerpeace

[Hairy Coo]

Review here (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1833165,00.asp)

Buy the Antec 180-basically the same (and the prior model to the 182) except for a few details which dont effect the cooling(ability to hide cabling,external fan switches)-its the one I'm using-looks the same too.
My CPU is 26c-ambient about 24c.
Use your existing PSU.
Its also quite silent-insulated sides.:thumb:

another review here (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article254-page1.html)

[markymoo]

right :thumb: then just run it with the lid removed and don't worry about the looks if in a safe location.

in an decent case with good airflow it can actually run cooler with side panel or lid on. the temps can go up when you take the side panel off but with it on there is a vacuum effect where the hot air is being forced out as the cooler air comes in thats if you place the fans in the right location. thats why i always have more fans blowing out situated at back of case and less fans blowing in at front. there is better cooling if the air is slightly pressured and wins over more air being blasted in which is contrary to what alot believe. you have to concentrate on getting rid of the hot air that's there already. btw those temp sensors are not always so accurate but give you an idea that why i like to use 2.

[lucas1985]

The drawback of negative air pressure is increased dust accumulation.

[markymoo]

yes thats the price you pay for lower temps but a quick blast with my vacuum sorts that out once in awhile.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE->

Buy the Antec 180-basically the same (and the prior model to the 182) except for a few details which dont effect the cooling(ability to hide cabling,external fan switches)-its the one I'm using-looks the same too.
My CPU is 26c-ambient about 24c.
Use your existing PSU.
Its also quite silent-insulated sides.:thumb:
<-QUOTE}


I dont think it worth spending that much on an Antec on his current hardware but just live with his high temps. Best he buy a new case like an Antec for his new hardware in the future and dump his current system and use the g/c from it. If he buys a Antec for his current setup and wants to get new hardware later on he have to transfer his old hardware back into the old case if he wants it working to be used by someone else. Maybe he can find a cheaper case like he was saying. The Antec NSK4480B is half the price and buy a Antec P180 or the Antec Nine Hundred for his next system. Coolermaster do great budget quality designs like the Centurion 5. I get 16C-18C on idle with watercooling so your temps sound too good on air.

[Hairy Coo]

OK markymoo-guess you are right,it snot worth going any further with the current setup-but he could buy a P180 for $80-which is about half original price.Youve almost convinced me about watercooling,but I have these visions about waking up and finding the house awash with cooling water :)
Here are my temps-the white are the HDDs,black dualcore-using an Antec P180 case and Ultra Extreme cooler.
The yellow and red is Processor Status-giving CPU loading instantly

[markymoo]

Hairy Coo

i missed that on the 1/2 price sale. that 180 or 182 can be used for watercooling too. no it's very safe you use 7/16" tubing on 1/2" barbs and then you force on the tubing over the barbs as its smaller but stretches so tightly on. you need some serious force to get it off again and the water pressure wont force it off. you don't even need any hoseclamps its so tight. this also makes it look neater too. you test all with no pc parts for 48 hours and if no leaks you good to go. i just topped up with a cup of water only once in 4 months due to evaporation. distilled water is not conductive. there are so many cases where the entire pc been soaked or spillages in distilled and everything still works. you also use other non conductive liquids. i never had a leak. its very safe. if you ever get don't ever buy a watercooling kit as there inferior.

Great temps. What processor is it again? The Thermalright IFX-14 seems to be better than the Ultra Extreme.

Benchmark charts for Air coolers
http://artco.adsl24.co.uk/markymoo/air1.gif
http://artco.adsl24.co.uk/markymoo/air2.png

[innerpeace]

I checked out one of the P180 review links that Hairy Coo posted. After reading it, I really like what I see. I can't get it now so it will be for my first build sometime this year. I like the idea of it having 3 fans.

I tried gaming a little more last night with the side off and temps stayed lower and cooled more quickly. The highest I saw was 62C GPU and 50C CPU. This was with Battlefront on highest settings.

I took another hard look at my case fan and it measures 10cm. I also noticed that it has extra holes for a larger fan :D. I assumed that those holes were part of the holes made to vent the fan :-[.

I'm not sure how to use speedfan to increase the case fan speed. Can I do this in the 'PC Health Status' section in the BIOS? Here are my default settings. Also, what should my CPU temps be at idle and what temps should it never reach?

Smart system fan target [ 40C ]
Smart system fan tolerance [ 3 ]

Smart CPU fan target [ 50C]
Smart CPU fan tolerance [ 5 ]

Thanks all,
innerpeace

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

Really impressive results on your part-the low temps,the o/c(4000:thumb: ) and the crystal clear graphic-all excellent!
Congratulations!

Probably will get a completely new rig when a few more hardware advances are made and will then get your advice about watercooling etc.

My CPU is a E6600 o/c to 3.4mhz,cant get it any higher,but may try increasing the voltages some more.Believe 3.6 is about the max.
A stress test at 3.4 results in max temps around 55c.
That Thermalright cooler is slightly better- hadnt heard of it-weighs 3.5 lbs!!

Innerpeace

The holes are probably for mounting a 12cm fan-but you need at least another two fans in the case,if you only have one-one inlet-one exhaust-one top exhaust if possible-all balanced for air pressure and flow.

Anyway-will let Markymoo give his expert advice;D

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> The holes are probably for mounting a 12cm fan-but you need at least another two fans in the case,if you only have one-one inlet-one exhaust-one top exhaust if possible-all balanced for air pressure and flow. <-QUOTE}
Yes, the holes are 12cm apart. I'm going to go ahead and get a 120mm fan to replace my current case fan. There isn't much room at the top of this little box to install a fan. Just a little room between the PSU and DVD burner. I don't know of anywhere else I could mount a third fan unless I could find a way to install one up front blowing backwards or install one on the removable side panel that I would have to disconnect every time I removed it.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> I checked out one of the P180 review links that Hairy Coo posted. After reading it, I really like what I see. I can't get it now so it will be for my first build sometime this year. I like the idea of it having 3 fans.

I tried gaming a little more last night with the side off and temps stayed lower and cooled more quickly. The highest I saw was 62C GPU and 50C CPU. This was with Battlefront on highest settings.

I took another hard look at my case fan and it measures 10cm. I also noticed that it has extra holes for a larger fan :D. I assumed that those holes were part of the holes made to vent the fan :-[.

I'm not sure how to use speedfan to increase the case fan speed. Can I do this in the 'PC Health Status' section in the BIOS? Here are my default settings. Also, what should my CPU temps be at idle and what temps should it never reach?

Smart system fan target [ 40C ]
Smart system fan tolerance [ 3 ]

Smart CPU fan target [ 50C]
Smart CPU fan tolerance [ 5 ]

Thanks all,
innerpeace <-QUOTE}

There's room for a slightly bigger fan but it's not going to make much of a difference. Its like an oven inside. I seen the pic of your case from the front only. I don't want to recommend you start hacking your case to bits (especially if you going to sell it again) but make some kind of extra ventilation would be worthwhile. You can only do so much with that kind of case. What would benefit is cutting out a hole(borehole) for the side panel or top to take a 120mm fan which would be directly above the gfx card and see if theres enough clearance inside for 3/4" fan depth. There could be some obstructions in front of your fans so maybe possible to reduce these.

Take a look at these to give you an idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqFYLCli9qY
http://www.modders-inc.com/modules.php?name=NDHow-To&op=Story&ndht_id=23

Unless the fan is connected to the motherboard you won't be able to control the speed of the fan and then it has to be a 4 pin connector(can get a 4 pin adapter) or get a fan controller. If the fan connected to the PSU then forget it. You won't be able to adjust it in the bios either. The smaller the fan the more noise it makes and can make alot more noise if obstruction.

A table that list the Max Temp for Amd. It be around 70C.
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/143/9
They run around 25-40 on idle depending on ambient air temp.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> markymoo,

Really impressive results on your part-the low temps,the o/c(4000:thumb: ) and the crystal clear graphic-all excellent!
Congratulations!

Probably will get a completely new rig when a few more hardware advances are made and will then get your advice about watercooling etc.

My CPU is a E6600 o/c to 3.4mhz,cant get it any higher,but may try increasing the voltages some more.Believe 3.6 is about the max.
A stress test at 3.4 results in max temps around 55c.
That Thermalright cooler is slightly better- hadnt heard of it-weighs 3.5 lbs!!

<-QUOTE}

:thumb: that was in 2006 i havent bothered upgrading since then i wait another year. DDR2 is fantastic price at moment. 4GB for $100 :) that X48 chipset will make DDR3 official so probably see DDR2 fall further. waste of money getting DDR3 this year. overclocking to its limit is not so beneficial for general use as the heat reduces performance and cpu throttles back. best to strike a balance. coolers now weigh upto 4lbs but no stress on board as they come with anchor ropes!

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> There's room for a slightly bigger fan but it's not going to make much of a difference. Its like an oven inside. I seen the pic of your case from the front only. I don't want to recommend you start hacking your case to bits (especially if you going to sell it again) but make some kind of extra ventilation would be worthwhile. You can only do so much with that kind of case. What would benefit is cutting out a hole(borehole) for the side panel to take a 120mm fan which would be directly above the gfx card and see if theres enough clearance inside for 3/4" fan depth. There could be some obstructions in front of your fans so maybe possible to reduce these. <-QUOTE}
Thanks markymoo for the links. Both my CPU and case fan have 3 pin connectors hooked to the MB. So, you don't think that replacing the existing case fan with a better 120mm fan with an adjustable switch will work? Noise is not a problem. What if I did that and used the old fan, kept it hooked to the MB and installed it like you suggested around the GPU? Of course I would try them one at a time to avoid cutting a hole in the side panel.

Both sides of my case have 2" high vents, 1" up from the bottom of the case, almost the entire length of the sides. On the CPU side, it has a cpu vent, no duct. That's basically it except for what ever comes in from the front. I tried removing the plastic piece around the media reader to let more air in the front and it had no effect. I could feel the air moving, but it didn't help the temps. I wonder if installing the new fan and duct taping part of the lower inlets would help? Don't laugh :P. Wouldn't that force more front to back air movement? Of coarse I would consider a balance between in and out airflow. FWIW, I have helped install a few heating and air systems while I was a carpenter and I have also helped build a dirt modified from the ground up including the sheet metal.

[DVD+R]

Sorry it took a day or 2 to answer questions about the nVidia Ultra Drivers, but for those that ask here you go....8)

nVidia GeFORCE 9 Release 174 WHQL

http://www.nvidia.com/object/winvista_x86_174.16.html

nVidia GeFORCE 8 Ultra ForceWare Release 169 WHQL


http://www.nvidia.com/object/winvista_x86_169.25_whql.html

[Dieselman]

You can mod the 174.16's to use on any card. Right now I am using the 174.20's. Make sure to use Drive Sweeper in safe mode also.

http://downloads.guru3d.com/ForceWare-174.20-XP-(32-bit)-download-1866.html

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,

Two alternatives

(1) just leave side off permanently(will collect junk),but easy to clean with vacuum cleaner plastic nozzle-quite safe.

(2)Leave 10" in front-fit powerful 12" or larger if possible at rear exhaust-THEN cut hole in side panel and fit intake fan-near graphics card-connect to other cabling with long cable so no problem taking off side.
All this is so easy to do.More air should be exhausting than entering by a small amount-negative pressure-the fan specs will tell all.
Forget about easy fixes which wont do much at all.
Dont get adjustable speed fans-thats for when you have enough cooling and can afford to turn the speed down-just get powerful low noise fans .

[markymoo]

its the kind of case unless you do something drastic like fitting 2x80mm or 120mm at the side and getting rid out of the hot air then forget it just live with it with the panel off. you've stuck a hot graphics card in a case that wasn't designed for it, its an emachine case. whenever you upgrade use the gfx on next one pc and stick your old gfx back in em. fans run at full speed, if they were motherboard controlled they would i'm sure be going as fast as they can due to the heat. you would only be able to slow them down. if you a carpenter you have no problem cutting out holes in the top or the panel :P let it breathe. my best advice is start collecting those parts you can get so much for so little these days. a intel cpu would enhance your graphics and give you much more power. Just get a cheap Intel Core 2 Duo E4500 and cheap motherboard and this will crush your 3200+ you be able to get a case, cpu, 2gb memory and motherboard for $280

case - great cooling for your needs with extra space to fit more fans
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119068
pics
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?CurImage=11-119-068-06.jpg&Image=11-119-068-15.jpg%2c11-119-068-03.jpg%2c11-119-068-17.jpg%2c11-119-068-06.jpg%2c11-119-068-04.jpg%2c11-119-068-05.jpg%2c11-119-068-11.jpg%2c11-119-068-18.jpg%2c11-119-068-13.jpg%2c11-119-068-12.jpg%2c11-119-068-19.jpg%2c11-119-068-20.jpg&S7ImageFlag=0&WaterMark=1&Depa=0&Description=COOLER+MASTER+Centurion+5+CAC-T05-UW+Black+Computer+Case
cpu
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115031&Tpk=intel%2bcore%2b2%2bcpu%2be4500
motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127024
memory
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145098

[innerpeace]

Thanks once again Hairy Coo and markymoo. You all are telling me the same thing, so I just have to live with it. I'll leave the side off for now until some other arrangement can be made.

{QUOTE-> All this is so easy to do.More air should be exhausting than entering by a small amount-negative pressure-the fan specs will tell all. <-QUOTE}
Thanks for this, it will help me if and when I make the mods.

markymoo, your are right, I stuck a hot gfx card in a bad case. All my heat is coming from the card. I am going to start saving for parts. Thanks for the suggested parts and the links. That case looks pretty good, even better now that the price of the P180 went back up to $130 :'( . I am going to wait until the prices drop on the chips like you said they should in the near future after intel releases it's new chips. Expect a PM when that happens ;D. Trust me, I'm soooo tempted in getting what you suggested right now. I would also have to consider the cost of an OS and decide which I wanted. I really don't want Vista, but I heard the prices fell this week.

Thanks,
innerpeace

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo
nice basic system!!:thumb:
Innerpeace
stay with XP

[markymoo]

its onboard graphics right on that emachine not a seperate card when i said stick the old card back in if you upgrade.

Sort your hardware out first! You don't even need Vista even if it free. It won't do you any favours. Put the money into getting a tidy system. That spec was a good example of hardware that exceed your current system alot for little cost will work well together in a decent budget case. If you want Vista for DirectX 10 there's little out for that and needs heavy hardware. You need 2gb+ for Vista ideally. Keep focused on collecting parts.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> its onboard graphics right on that emachine not a seperate card when i said stick the old card back in if you upgrade. <-QUOTE}
Yep, it's an integrated Radeon Xpress 200. I knew what you meant though. You are very thorough :thumb:.

{QUOTE-> Sort your hardware out first! You don't even need Vista even if it free. It won't do you any favours. Put the money into getting a tidy system. Vista for DirectX 10 but needs heavy hardware. Keep focused on collecting parts. <-QUOTE}
I will get XP, I really like it anyways. This time I would like to get XP Pro if I can. I also think you and Hairy Coo are tag teaming me LOL. Seriously, if you all keep agreeing on things, then both of your suggestions must be good.

I have a question about SLI as my card has this capability. Would I need 2 PCI express x16 slots to make it work? I'm thinking about future proofing my MB investment.

[lucas1985]

Don't bother with SLI. It isn't worthwhile (unless you pump gold out of your nose and have a huge display)

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Don't bother with SLI. It isn't worthwhile (unless you pump gold out of your nose and have a huge display) <-QUOTE}
LOL! Ok thanks, I won't worry about it. There is no gold or a big display here. If I did pump gold out my nose, I would send you a tissue :P.

[markymoo]

lol

lucas right. it creates headaches using SLI and you need a BIG monitor to take advantage of very high resolutions. you can get so much power on 1 card anyway theres little point unless you mega rich. you thinking of SLI and Vista lol when you should be saving for the basics like cpu memory and motherboard.

[innerpeace]

I didn't research SLI. From a review at newegg, someone suggested getting 2 of the cards I currently have and running them together. I would imagine it would be very hard to keep cool.

I only mentioned Vista because of DX10 which my card was capable of running. Personally, I would rather skip Vista all together. As far as a monitor, I plan on getting a 19" at the end of the year if the price is right. I see no reason for a larger monitor for computing.

I've looked over 2 guides showing how to build a computer. I think I can handle the build, but the BIOS stuff looks difficult. I'm not going to worry about it now though. I'm going to focus on the hardware. I could buy the parts now, but I admit that I am cheap and want to save money. I will trade patience for a few bucks here and there. I want to see older Intel chips hit there lowest price and then I will jump. I also really want that P180 case when it goes back on sale.

Cheers

[markymoo]

sure. i'm saying don't be swayed on impulse buying something you don't need when there's other hardware prioritys. there's still so many directx 9 great games around to play. if you can sort out your hardware first then you can be content on being able to run any game,software you throw at it.

Here is a chart of all cpus. You at no. 50 in the charts.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/common_cpus.html

Your 3200+ is equal to Pentium 4 2.2 If you get a cheap intel you be in the top 20 on that list.

Forget the monitor. You existing 1024 is fine. Its pointless buying 19" if you intent on gaming as your pc be too slow to run at 1200+ res. It better to run lower resolution with more graphic settings turned on. Forget about BIOS. Alot good settings are set on auto already. You can learn these in time. You need to save up and get these in this order. Case > Cpu > Motherboard > Memory. You can get away buying a cheap case if it got good cooling features and put it towards the next item. The P180 good to get if you going to keep it a long time as it bigger than what you need and you upgrade further still otherwise buy a smaller case and cheaper. Yes wait till April at least.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE->

I've looked over 2 guides showing how to build a computer. I think I can handle the build, but the BIOS stuff looks difficult. I'm not going to worry about it now though.

Cheers <-QUOTE}

Really quite surprisingly simple,just a matter of slotting bits and pieces into place.Just show who the boss is!
As regrettably the instructions books always omit exactly the info you need- a bit of trial and error may be needed,but even then,it usually works out OK.
The BIOS is by and large preset and until you get to the overclocking stage-is really easy and well documented.
Think you will enjoy the build. :)

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Here is a chart of all cpus. You at no. 50 in the charts. <-QUOTE}
Actually, I'm at no. 47 ;D. I have an Athlon 64 3200+. Thanks for the link, it should help a lot in comparing the different types of processors.

{QUOTE-> Forget the monitor. You existing 1024 is fine. Its pointless buying 19" if you intent on gaming as your pc be too slow to run at 1200+ res. It better to run lower resolution with more graphic settings turned on. Forget about BIOS. Alot good settings are set on auto already. You can learn these in time. You need to save up and get these in this order. Case > Cpu > Motherboard > Memory. You can get away buying a cheap case if it got good cooling features and put it towards the next item. The P180 good to get if you going to keep it a long time as it bigger than what you need and you upgrade further still otherwise buy a smaller case and cheaper. Yes wait till April at least. <-QUOTE}
I won't make any impulse buys, trust me ;). I'm just really tired of staring at a 15" D-sub LCD. I wouldn't get a monitor until after I build my system. I want my next pc purchase to be long term. I'll try to get the best and most I can with whatever money I have. The P180 would be a long term investment, but I'll only buy it at a sale price. Great cooling is a must with whatever case I end up buying.

{QUOTE-> Really quite surprisingly simple,just a matter of slotting bits and pieces into place.Just show who the boss is!
As regrettably the instructions books always omit exactly the info you need- a bit of trial and error may be needed,but even then,it usually works out OK.
The BIOS is by and large preset and until you get to the overclocking stage-is really easy and well documented.
Think you will enjoy the build. <-QUOTE}
Thanks for the encouragement :). You and markymoo have eased my mind about the BIOS settings. Now, if the darn prices would drop some, I could start building.

[markymoo]

Talking of prices dropping this high performance 4Gb memory is a bargain. Awesome Performance. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231145

[Hairy Coo]

Yea,but will they deliver to UK or Aus.

[innerpeace]

They only deliver in the US :( . That's a pretty good price for 4 gigs.

I have a question for you both. I was wanting to give my old computer away, but the person wants to get a laptop instead so I was thinking about taking my existing system and putting in a new case until I get the new MB, CPU and memory. Hairy Coo suggested doing this earlier.

I'm looking at the Antec P182 and it's on sale with a rebate so with shipping it would be a little under $120. The Antec 900 is also on sale with free shipping and it's $120 without the hassles of a rebate. This is a long term investment and will not effect my other purchases. I like the looks of the P182 better, but the 900 has 4 fans. What do you all think?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129021

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129025

[lucas1985]

P182 > 900 :)

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace;

The PI82 is probably quieter as it has insulated sides and a front door and comes with 3 12" fans,but wouldnt make too much of this,as it has a lot of gaps in the insulation which must let through noise.
The 900 is more conventional, .
Probably with the large fans set at medium speed,there wouldnt be much in it as regards noise

Both should be excellent as regards cooling.

Should imagine the 900 would be easier to work with as regards installation.
The PSU is at the top on the 900,but bottom on the182.
The 182 is a bit cramped, installing the SATA cables and the PSU cabling is fiddly.
Also if you are going to use your existing PSU there is a chance that some of the main cables wont be long enough.
If its an Antec you should be OK.

I also like the lack of a front door on the 900
My P180 has a left hinged door,which has broken off the hinges twice and is a bit of a pain,as I have positioned the computer on the right and also its not so easy to access the buttons or the DVD drive etc.

The 182 probably looks more attractive and in practice may be marginally quieter and cooler than the 900-

BUT all things considered in your case probably the 900 may be preferable.

Looking forward to your new build ;D

edit; notice you prefer the looks of the 182,which is very stylish. If you dont mind getting another 12" fan for the inside (not essential) and dont mind the installation of some cabling being probabaly more fiddly-then BUY IT-you will be looking at it for a long time!!

[Dieselman]

I have the Antec 900 case and i love it.

[innerpeace]

Thanks Lucas and Hairy Coo.

I think the hinge is on the left side of the front panel of the P182. If the hinge is plastic, that would be bad. My computer also sits on the right. As far as wiring, I do have an Antec Earthwatts 380 watt PSU. The cables are not modular though.

The P182 is the Gun Metal Stainless steel which I love and from a little more reading, I guess it's heavy too. It also has room for an optional 120mm front fan and a 120mm middle fan for the GPU. Like you said, the wiring can be a pain. Thanks for the details and first hand experience Hairy Coo, that's what I'm looking for :).

The 900 probably can run things cooler by default but it looks like it might suck in a lot of dust. I'm getting close to 40 in age so the lights aren't important to me but I do like the idea of a window for visual inspection of the CPU fan. It isn't as tall as the P182 either. Actually, the PSU is mounted at the bottom, but without the whole isolated lower chamber configuration like the P182. My PSU gets warm, so it might not work well in this case. You can also mount another fan in the windowed vent area. The audio jacks are on top and I use my headphones often and I'm a little worried about stress on the connection.

Overall, I'm leaning toward the P182 as one day this case may end up as a home business machine. It's also the more expensive of the 2. It even has ports for external water cooling if I ever go that route which I doubt. The 900 would keep the HDD's cooler with it's 2 front fans. Ok, I'm done thinking aloud. I have 10 days to think about it before the sale on one of them ends.

Cheers,
innerpeace

Edit: After going here http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=81820 and viewing the video demo and the demo animation. I think I'm sold on the P182.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,
The hinged door,which is the same on the 180 and 182, relies on plastic posts,which broke on mine-but its easy just to Bostik glue the posts-as good as new.
Actually I received a replacement door unit without any problems from Antec under warranty, the first time
The door can be closed when running, to keep out wild deer,black bears etc:)

With the bottom mounted PSU-there is a drive cage in front of it with a 12" fan to cool the drives and the PSU-quite adequate.
My drive temps are 42 and 43c.
If you can get SATA cables with 90degree angled plugs to fit into the drives ,it will make fitting easier.

Generally,installation isnt difficult,you just have to have nimble,doublejointed fingers.

Above this bottom cage is another drive cage,which can be used instead of the bottom one for fitting of HDDs(mine are in the bottom).
This cage allows the fitting of a 12" fan to mount on the inside of the computer on the cage,which is good additional cooling and points near to the Video card.I have this fan fitted.
The 182 has audio jacks at the door cutout and has adjustable fan controls,I think at the back.
For business use certainly the 182 looks more professional-you would get my business immediately:thumb:

EDIT: dont know why the manufacturers persist in fitting left hand hinged doors-as most people are right handed,they would tend to park the computer also on the right,which logically needs a RH hinged door!!

bestest hairy

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> The hinged door,which is the same on the 180 and 182, relies on plastic posts,which broke on mine-but its easy just to Bostik glue the posts-as good as new.
Actually I received a replacement door unit without any problems from Antec under warranty, the first time
The door can be closed when running, to keep out wild deer,black bears etc:) <-QUOTE}
Thanks for your reply and clarification Hairy Coo. I also edited my first post with a little more info on the P182 for everyone's enjoyment. It's also good to hear that it will keep out the critters ;D. I admit, you made me laugh.

{QUOTE-> With the bottom mounted PSU-there is a drive cage in front of it with a 12" fan to cool the drives and the PSU-quite adequate.
My drive temps are 42 and 43c.
If you can get SATA cables with 90degree angled plugs to fit into the drives ,it will make fitting easier. <-QUOTE}
I'm taking note of the 90 degree SATA cables because all my future drives will be SATA. That's not counting my ext.

{QUOTE-> Generally,installation isnt difficult,you just have to have nimble,doublejointed fingers. <-QUOTE}
Ahhh crap, I have neither. My fingers are small though and I could sprinkle in a little patience. Scratch that, I don't have patience either :dry:.

{QUOTE-> Above this bottom cage is another drive cage,which can be used instead of the bottom one for fitting of HDDs(mine are in the bottom).
This cage allows the fitting of a 12" fan to mount on the inside of the computer on the cage,which is good additional cooling and points near to the Video card.I have this fan fitted. <-QUOTE}
More great info! I bet it would keep the GPU chilly.

{QUOTE-> The 182 has audio jacks at the door cutout and has adjustable fan controls,I think at the back.
For business use certainly the 182 looks more professional-you would get my business immediately:thumb:

EDIT: dont know why the manufacturers persist in fitting left hand hinged doors-as most people are right handed,they would tend to park the computer also on the right,which logically needs a RH hinged door!! <-QUOTE}
The headphone jack is important to me. I also like the adjustable fan speeds and I am hoping that low would work, but that's not a big deal as my heat/air and refrigerator are loud in this little apartment. I agree about the hinge side, don't most desks have the computer sitting on the right side? weird...

Regards,
innerpeace

[markymoo]

The Antec 182 i'm sure will be more than you need. The 900 is a newer design and better cooling but alot owners say you have to get cables so neatly managed to maintain better cooling. The Antec wins on style and looks and its already a winner for cooling and silence. Another good case to consider for less money is the Coolermaster 690. http://www.coolermaster.com/products/product.php?language=en&act=detail&tbcate=17&id=2908 can fit 7 120mm fans. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119137 only $80 :)

Did someone say fan?
http://www.aplus-case.de/pages/products/TwinEngine/TwinEngine.html

[lucas1985]

Lian Li (http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product03.php?cl_index=1&sc_index=25) is another option in quality cases/chassis. Not as quiet as the P182, but light (pure aluminium) and beautiful (industrial design)

[markymoo]

Lian Li and Silverstone cases are great quality but also very expensive if you want a good one with the features of the Antec. They generally cost alot more than Antec cases, which would be outside the budget.

http://www.silverstonetek.com/products/enclosure.php?area=usa

[innerpeace]

Dieselman Thanks, sorry I missed your post earlier. Does the 900 suck in a lot of dust?

markymoo I must have missed the Coolermaster 690 when I was searching. It looks decent, and can hold a boat load of fans, but for $20 more bucks, it's hard not to get the P182. For fun, I had a look at the SilverStones, they are way too expensive.

Lucas I was seriously considering the Lian Li's. Some people have reported noise like you said, vibrations and cheap fans. I was only looking at models I could afford though. I do like the looks of them.

[innerpeace]

Sorry for the double post, but I thought I would let everyone know that the P182 had free shipping today so I just ordered it ;D. It will be $100 after rebates and should be here in the middle of the week. Let's hope there are no dents.

I can't wait until cpu prices start falling and hopefully I can find a good deal on a good MB. What is the difference in a dual cpu and dual core? I'm also considering a virtual machine in the future so I will need a cpu and I guess an OS to accomplish this. Is XP pro 64 bit? Would I even need 64 bit in the near future 2-4 years?

[Dieselman]

I don't worry about sucking in dust. I have 2 cats. Cant do anything about that but I have fan filters on my intake fans.

[markymoo]

Well done on your purchase. Here in Uk it would cost $170 which is still not a bad price when you see other cases around costing far more.

Dual core now is 2 processors in one chip fitted into a 1 socket motherboard and dual cpu is 2 seperate cpus which can be dual or quad cores fitted into a motherboard that will take 2 seperate processors commonly known as Skulltrial, which is an advancement of server xeon technology of old which is able to run it faster still. It comes at a huge price as you could fit 2 quad cores on one motherboard meaning 8 cores. The memory for it is expensive.

For your purposes into the future a dual core will suffice as little applications take advantage of 4 cores. The best advice is save as much money as you can until April wait for those prices to drop and then buy an Intel 8000 series cpu (8200 8300 8400 8500) the best you can afford and by then the x48 motherboards will be out and the P35 x38 intel chipset motherboards will of come down in price. You be able to pick up a high spec P35 motherboard at a bargain price that will work with your cpu. There will be little benefit buying the latest motherboard unless you want SLI/Crossfire or 10% more speed. In fact this is what i will be doing waiting for a top board like the Abit IP35 Pro http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3142 or Foxconn Mars http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3107 to come down and picking up a cheap Intel 6600 quad core or getting the new Intel Q9450 in March which is like 10 days away. I need quad but a 8000 series cpu will just be as good and fast for the majority of software. I think Nehalem early next year will cost a fortune.

In 1980 we had 8bit and Amd were first to bring out 64bit in 2003 now Intel do it. If you buy a cpu today it be 64bit. It means there 64 registers in the chip basically means the data gets handled in bigger chunks for processing meaning faster. Yes you want a x64 chip. XP comes in x32 or x64 versions. XP didn't get so popular due to lack of drivers before Vista and thought to be a dead duck but now due to the disappointment of Vista and availability of drivers its getting a revivial. If you use x64 XP it be faster but not all software takes advantage of it. Alot software you can get working. Games run ok on x64. You see 32bit referred to as x86.

[Hairy Coo]

Well done,Innerpeace:)
Wouldnt worry about denting-the cardboard case is built like a shipping container.

If you can be patient for a month or so,you could probably buy a cheaper CPU,as markymoo pointed out,which would be ideal.
But if you want to buy all the hardware now,Newegg have,for example, the dual core E6550 for $170 and the GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L mobo for $89-a good combination.
The E6550 is rated at approx 2.4ghz but will overclock to around 3.4GHz with a good chip cooler.
It seems that Newegg have deals all the time,so a package like this would suit you.
I prefer Gigabyte or Asus mobos.
As regards the virtual machine,an excellent freebie is VirtualBox,which runs perfectly on XP2 32bit

[innerpeace]

Thanks everyone :).

markymoo, Thanks for the explanation. It clears up some of the mystery about the different chips. I've been looking at the benchmark link you posted and now it's making more sense to me. I'll try and keep an eye on the models you mentioned and learn more about them.

Hairy Coo, Your the reason I bought the P182. You had me hooked the moment you mentioned it :P.

That is a nice combo and I think that's one of the chips I have been looking at. I am going to wait and see what I can get for the least money. I think one of the quads is $254 and if it drops to $200, I might seriously consider getting it. That MB is rated very high at NewEgg.

The price for XP Pro 64 and 32bit are the same. Is it ok getting the OEM license or would that be a bad decision. I'm not sure that I would by my software from them and will shop around for an OS license. When will they quit selling XP? Would it be cheaper to see if a local computer repair shop sells XP OEM licenses? Heck, I made my own XP Home disks from my OEM install, but I would need a license so Bill can eat.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,
Dont think the quad core make any sense at all for you-they are only advantageous in specialized applications such as some graphics, which can utilize all 4 cores-you would be better off getting a good dual core chip.
The OEM licence is fine,doesnt have the fancy retail wrapping and only good for an install on one machine,but otherwise exactly the same. Cant you get it from Newegg-generally needs a purchase of hardware to qualify!
Probably XP 32 would be better as regards general compatibility.
XP will be maintained by Microsoft for a long time yet,and service pack 3 is about to be announced,so it certainly isnt obsolete.
You also will need memory,the one markymoo recommended should serve well.
That 182 price was a bargain!!:thumb:

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> That 182 price was a bargain!!:thumb: <-QUOTE}
;D Thanks. When I was a child, we played a board game called Bargain Hunter. I must have been paying attention ;) .

Your probably right about the quad cores. I really wonder how many apps will be using 2 or 4 cores and/or 64 bit technology in 2-3 years. This build will probably be at least a 3 year investment for me.

Yes, NewEgg has OS's, but I thought I may be able to get it cheaper elsewhere. It's $140 for either a 32 or 64 bit XP Pro OEM. They also have XP home OEM for $90. Here is what the disclaimer says for OEM XP home.
{QUOTE-> Disclaimer: Qualifying proof of purchase must be recent receipts showing the purchase of a mother board, hard drive, RAM and a CPU. The components can be on multiple receipts; not necessarily all on one receipt nor on the same receipt as the qualifying Windows XP/Office 2003 that you purchased. <-QUOTE}
My recent hard drive purchase may be a problem. I'll need to look into this. The OS will be the last thing I buy.

[lucas1985]

innerpeace,
You're building a solid foundation for your new rig :thumb:
If I have time, I'll put a thread called "Towards smart, painless and happy computing"

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace
For a start get XP Pro-usually if you twist arms hard enough with a smaller supplier,any reasonable hardware purchase may qualify.
In my opinion,unless you are a games fanatic(some games are being written just for quad core) or a professional needing a quad core for an as yet unwritten program,you will not get any value out of it-Dont aim too high for no reason!!

Whats wrong with your hard drive-just get 2-SATA drives,the biggest which give value,this will ensure best performance as the data that counts will be near the edge for reading/writing.
EDIT If you are talking about your external eSATA seagate-there wont be any problems irrespecitve of the mobo you buy,obviously as long as it supports sata-which they probably all do, now.
If possible get another two internals.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> innerpeace,
You're building a solid foundation for your new rig :thumb:
If I have time, I'll put a thread called "Towards smart, painless and happy computing" <-QUOTE}
Thank Lucas. If you write a thread, I would certainly read it :thumb:.

{QUOTE-> For a start get XP Pro-usually if you twist arms hard enough with a smaller supplier,any reasonable hardware purchase may qualify.
In my opinion,unless you are a games fanatic(some games are being written just for quad core) or a professional needing a quad core for an as yet unwritten program,you will not get any value out of it-Dont aim too high for no reason!! <-QUOTE}
Ok, it would be fun to run 3 VM's though. Like I would ever do that LOL.

{QUOTE-> Whats wrong with your hard drive-just get 2-SATA drives,the biggest which give value,this will ensure best performance as the data that counts will be near the edge for reading/writing.
EDIT If you are talking about your external eSATA seagate-there wont be any problems irrespecitve of the mobo you buy,obviously as long as it supports sata-which they probably all do, now.
If possible get another two internals. <-QUOTE}
Yes, I was talking about the new 250GB ext. SATA drive I bought. I thought that it might have been to long ago to qualify. I think I got it in Dec. My internal HDD is an IDE 100GB. I was thinking about getting another 160GB or less SATA drive for the new build because they were around $42 because my IDE has been occasionally clicking and chirping for several months now. I can't get Seatools (graphical) to recognize my mouse's and the keyboard won't work either. I also have the DOS version, but I'm not familiar with what to do in the DOS version.

For the record, my new burner is IDE so it would probably occupy the single IDE input on the new MB. I could temporary use my new 250GB ext. SATA HDD for a while, but my backups would have to be on it or I could temp. use the questionable IDE drive in my ext. enclosure for backups. I hope that makes sense. I'm also getting ahead of myself here as my main focus is on the next month or so.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,
Quad cores dont work like that,you cant run 4 apps in parallel and tell them-you use core 1-you use 2-etc.
What you could do is install 4 different functions in your VM.

As regards the disk-that Click of Death is a worry and usually terminal-could be the head scratching the platter and data in a certain position.
But if the disk fails,the SeaWizard backup image probably wont work on a new disk-so backup your data separately.


You will have to clone from the old disk to the new-but I'm not sure what happens when you clone from IDe to SATA,should be OK
Does SeaWizard have a clone function and can it clone from IDE to SATA-check the Help file.

In any case, buy another SATA drive-250gb or bigger the better and faster-and better value usually, AND SOON!
You really dont have a choice.

You may be better off-if you now make the external the new active c systems disk.
You would have to create a Secure Zone on the IDE disk,backup a current image there-then use that image to restore to the external-then fit that internally and throw the IDE as far away as possible!

Also play around with Disk Management of course-loads of fun!!

[markymoo]

{QUOTE->

Thanks for the explanation. It clears up some of the mystery about the different chips. I've been looking at the benchmark link you posted and now it's making more sense to me. I'll try and keep an eye on the models you mentioned and learn more about them.
<-QUOTE}
That benchmark is abit out of date as it doesn't feature the newer ones. Heres more upto date. So you be really more at 50 hehe
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=946&model2=882&chart=435
{QUOTE->
Hairy Coo, Your the reason I bought the P182. You had me hooked the moment you mentioned it :P. <-QUOTE}
You can't beat the experience of owning one.

{QUOTE->
The price for XP Pro 64 and 32bit are the same. Is it ok getting the OEM license or would that be a bad decision. I'm not sure that I would by my software from them and will shop around for an OS license. When will they quit selling XP? Would it be cheaper to see if a local computer repair shop sells XP OEM licenses? Heck, I made my own XP Home disks from my OEM install, but I would need a license so Bill can eat. <-QUOTE}

I didn't know exactly what your using your pc for but it looks like you putting a decent system together for the future so i now say don't buy XP x64. I am presuming it mainly for gaming as you bought a better graphics card before. If you don't want to buy another operating sytem for awhile i say buy VISTA x64 instead as it will be more future proofed as it has directx10 to play games if you upgrade your graphics card yet again in the future for games such as Crysis. Games run slower in Vista but if you got a decent graphics card it be fine. If you already own XP 32bit then buy Vista X64. Now that SP1 is coming for Vista it should be better. There will be more compatibility with Vista x64 in the future. If Vista too much to buy then buy OEM 32bit XP as it will have 100% compatibility with everything and run faster and will be around for ages yet. The difference in speed between x86 and x64 is small in XP and games dont take advantage of x64 so much. So ideally buy a Intel Conroe Cpu to run x64 Vista for the future. Buying x64 will fully utilize all of the 4Gb.

{QUOTE->

If you can be patient for a month or so,you could probably buy a cheaper CPU,as markymoo pointed out,which would be ideal.
But if you want to buy all the hardware now,Newegg have,for example, the dual core E6550 for $170 and the GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L mobo for $89-a good combination. The E6550 is rated at approx 2.4ghz but will overclock to around 3.4GHz with a good chip cooler. It seems that Newegg have deals all the time,so a package like this would suit you. I prefer Gigabyte or Asus mobos. <-QUOTE}

I say don't buy anything now or you regret. You buy the new affordable best which is the Intel 8000 series cpus just out. This will sustain you with better performance over the next 2 years+ that you keep it. The E6500 has been out since last year and is already outdated so not a wise choice to get. If you buy a 8000 you be able to overclock way over 4.0ghz and if you don't overclock then you have cheaper electric bills as it uses less power so you make up the saving that way. Just save your money for the best cpu and then getting the rest will fall easily into place.

It could be soon in the future as quad cores drop in price and become standard on the average desktop then developers will design for quad core and we see more quad software. The 2nd generation of quads that will come out soon will run faster and use less power. If i had to pick between a 8000 series or a quad i invest in a quad as it will be utilized in future more and still run fast enough without using all 4 cores at once, for general gaming go for dual core.

Another reason not to buy the latest motherboard is because it utilizes DDR3 memory and that is still expensive and not coming down much yet. As DDR2 memory is alot cheaper and not much slower you might as well buy the P35 motherboard. If you get Vista you be able to pick up very affordable 4Gb of DDR2.

Here's another good P35 board that has alot features with good price now that go lower to keep an eye on.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131225

or some of the Gigabytes P35 DS3 DS4 models like this one.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128086

alternatively if you want to save some money. get a decent budget motherboard this one in particular.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157120

{QUOTE-> I'm also getting ahead of myself here as my main focus is on the next month or so. <-QUOTE}

lol

You be able to use that external fine with your new parts and getting a internal SATA such as a Western Digital or Seagate 300gb won't be much as the last part to get.

If you get a CD-ROM buy one with a SATA connector as opposed to IDE as ide is being phased out and SATA makes for tidier cabling. Motherboard provide just one ide connector now but whats worse is uses jmicron controller which is really buggy. So avoid IDE.

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

Waiting would be the way to go,as you say, if Innerpeace can wait-except for the new SATA HDD!!

[markymoo]

@Hairy Coo
yes, it all down to his budget. the idea i trying to put forward is better to buy more expensive cpu even if it take 3 months to save up to buy that one part. it be better in the long run as the pc will have better speed to run the software of the future. even if it takes him 5-6 months to acquire all the parts. better that than going out any buying all the parts in one go and getting a lesser machine. he be more satisfied in the end having a better pc and be able to run the software in a years time and beyond. once he got a decent system all he need to do is upgrade the graphics card again in the future. yes theres bargains now but they be more bargains in a few month.

[Rico]

See: Fastest to Slowest (http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/index.cfm?a=wiki&tag=rmp_vds)

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> I can't get Seatools (graphical) to recognize my mouse's and the keyboard won't work either. <-QUOTE}
Are your keyboard/mice USB? If so, enable legacy USB support or USB support for DOS in the BIOS.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Are your keyboard/mice USB? If so, enable legacy USB support or USB support for DOS in the BIOS. <-QUOTE}
The keyboard is PS/2 and the mice I have tried are USB with the PS/2 adapters. I looked in the BIOS and I think those settings are enabled/default. I can't remember if I tried just using a USB mouse as my main mouse started getting flaky on me so I switched it to PS/2. I may have even tried my original ball PS/2 mouse. I'll do a little more experimenting.

Edit: I searched their KB and I'm not the only one with the problem. They also have no solution.

They also have Seatools for Windows and it requires .NET 2.0 which I don't have. Would it be worth making a special image with .NET just to run the diagnostics?

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE->

They also have Seatools for Windows and it requires .NET 2.0 which I don't have. Would it be worth making a special image with .NET just to run the diagnostics? <-QUOTE}
In your case-absolutely as there seems a chance that your main drive is faulty,from what you previously described
You can always uninstall a previous version of Net .

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> In your case-absolutely as there seems a chance that your main drive is faulty,from what you previously described
You can always uninstall a previous version of Net . <-QUOTE}
Ok, no problem. The drive has been making the occasional screech since before I reinstalled XP (end of Dec.) and then I made many images along the way. I hammered on it pretty good back then. I honestly don't mind reinstalling XP now that I know how, but I am curious about the HDD's state. There is also no mission critical info here and most of my data is already backed up.

I'm off to run the tests. I also haven't forgotten about the last several posts :).

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace-is the IDE disk to be tested a Seagate?
Otherwise no point running SeaTools.:)

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Innerpeace-is the IDE disk to be tested a Seagate?
Otherwise no point running SeaTools.:) <-QUOTE}
Yep, both drives are Seagates. I only ran the 'SMART', 'Short Drive Self Test' and 'Short Generic Test's and they all passed. I may run the Long DST later if you think I should, but not tonight.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> That benchmark is abit out of date as it doesn't feature the newer ones. Heres more upto date. So you be really more at 50 hehe
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=946&model2=882&chart=435 <-QUOTE}
Thanks, I'll have a look see. LOL, I did check back at the other site and it had me a 50. It's also updated daily, but I don't know how reliable it is.

{QUOTE-> I didn't know exactly what your using your pc for but it looks like you putting a decent system together for the future so i now say don't buy XP x64. I am presuming it mainly for gaming as you bought a better graphics card before. If you don't want to buy another operating sytem for awhile i say buy VISTA x64 instead as it will be more future proofed as it has directx10 to play games if you upgrade your graphics card yet again in the future for games such as Crysis. Games run slower in Vista but if you got a decent graphics card it be fine. If you already own XP 32bit then buy Vista X64. Now that SP1 is coming for Vista it should be better. There will be more compatibility with Vista x64 in the future. If Vista too much to buy then buy OEM 32bit XP as it will have 100% compatibility with everything and run faster and will be around for ages yet. The difference in speed between x86 and x64 is small in XP and games dont take advantage of x64 so much. So ideally buy a Intel Conroe Cpu to run x64 Vista for the future. Buying x64 will fully utilize all of the 4Gb. <-QUOTE}
I would like to stick with XP and skip over Vista completely. I can always update the OS and gfx card later. For now, the machine will be used for internet and gaming. Not the latest games though. I would also like to try online gaming. I want to future proof the hardware the best I can. It seems that software is lagging far behind the hardware advancements so whatever I buy should be fine.

{QUOTE-> I say don't buy anything now or you regret. You buy the new affordable best which is the Intel 8000 series cpus just out. This will sustain you with better performance over the next 2 years+ that you keep it. The E6500 has been out since last year and is already outdated so not a wise choice to get. If you buy a 8000 you be able to overclock way over 4.0ghz and if you don't overclock then you have cheaper electric bills as it uses less power so you make up the saving that way. Just save your money for the best cpu and then getting the rest will fall easily into place. <-QUOTE}
The budget systems posted by everyone are great and would probably serve me well. I'm going to try to trade a little patience and time for better deals. I only see the 8400 at NewEgg. Is the 8000 series too new or in high demand?

{QUOTE-> It could be soon in the future as quad cores drop in price and become standard on the average desktop then developers will design for quad core and we see more quad software. The 2nd generation of quads that will come out soon will run faster and use less power. If i had to pick between a 8000 series or a quad i invest in a quad as it will be utilized in future more and still run fast enough without using all 4 cores at once, for general gaming go for dual core. <-QUOTE}
Which do you think would prove more reliable, quad or dual core tech? I'm leaning towards dual core because that is what you all are telling me.

{QUOTE-> Another reason not to buy the latest motherboard is because it utilizes DDR3 memory and that is still expensive and not coming down much yet. As DDR2 memory is alot cheaper and not much slower you might as well buy the P35 motherboard. If you get Vista you be able to pick up very affordable 4Gb of DDR2. <-QUOTE}
DDR2 is very cheap! It's cheaper that DDR at the moment. My gfx card has 256MB DDR3 and is OC'd, would the system I am building be more than enough to handle it? In other words, would my gfx card end up being the bottle neck? I'm guessing yes lol.

Thanks for links, I will try and keep an eye on the MB's you linked to. I will also only get SATA from now on. I may have to use the IDE burner I just bought. Hopefully it will work fine as it seems like a reliable burner.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> Yep, both drives are Seagates. I only ran the 'SMART', 'Short Drive Self Test' and 'Short Generic Test's and they all passed. I may run the Long DST later if you think I should, but not tonight. <-QUOTE}

Sounds encouraging-hopefully all may be well -but back up to date!

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> See: Fastest to Slowest (http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/index.cfm?a=wiki&tag=rmp_vds) <-QUOTE}
Thanks for the link Rico :thumb:.

{QUOTE-> Sounds encouraging-hopefully all may be well -but back up to date! <-QUOTE}
Ok, I will be sure to make new backups. I will be very busy the next few days. I have to move some shelves on this cheap desk (the P182 is much taller than my old machine). I'm going to also go ahead an move my old hardware into the P182 case when it arrives, that way I'm not rushed into a hardware purchase and I'll have a chilly and beautiful machine ;D. There is no way I can sit and stare at that new, shiny case without using it :P. When I finally get the new hardware, I should only have to re-install the MB, CPU, RAM and a HDD.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> I will be very busy the next few days. I have to move some shelves on this cheap desk (the P182 is much taller than my old machine). I'm going to also go ahead an move my old hardware into the P182 case when it arrives, that way I'm not rushed into a hardware purchase and I'll have a chilly and beautiful machine ;D. <-QUOTE}
:thumb: :thumb: ;D

[markymoo]

innerpeace (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/member.php?u=62216)

If a Ps2 mouse won't work in dos it be less likely a USB one will as they sometimes need dos drivers if the dos software not got it built in. If the drive is clicking then it's had it's day. Backup any important data to the external drive and buy a new SATA one as Hairy Coo suggested.

Get this software HDTune. Download the free version http://www.hdtune.com/
Select Error Scan and press Start. If the drive ok for now you have all green squares. If theres any red you have bad and damaged. Not much point testing it with Seagate tools as that clicking means its on its way out. Chkdsk can mark the bad so data doesnt get written there.

Hairy Coo
Yes buy a new SATA but is that for his future system or for his present system? The m/b on that e-m might not take SATA. If so best to buy a small ide as well.

[innerpeace]

markymoo, it's a 'Seatools for dos' mouse problem. The software is just flawed and/or it doesn't like my hardware. Others have reported the same thing. I even tried partition magic's boot cd and the mouse works fine with it. The screech noise is not common like a clicking noise. Like I said, it's been doing this since before December. It hasn't made a peep today. I'm sorta used to it LOL. I will have a look at the program you mentioned and see what it says, Thanks :).

My existing e/m MB has 4 SATA 1.5 inputs. One of them is connected to my ext. HDD (via a sudo eSATA bracket) which is SATA 3.0. In other words, I have a new Seagate drive installed in a separate purchased enclosure that is connected to a flimsy bracket that is connected to an onboard MB SATA 1.5 port.

If I have to, I will use this drive in my new hardware config. I would prefer to get a slightly smaller and cheaper drive as my working internal drive. Either way, I will have to get another SATA HDD eventually.

[markymoo]

no because no mouse driver is loaded. PM loads mouse.com before it loads. if you put mouse.com and type it at the dos prompt or in autoexec.bat before Seatools it will work. http://www.bootdisk.com/plan30/mouse.com the Seatools for dos works for ide. the enterprise version works for scsi. if thats alot messing about just use that program to see if it ok.

in that case get a 8190 or 8200 the lower ones or go for 8400 and put one in a budget motherboard. dual core fine. they selling out fast as there big demand. get XP 32bit. 2Gb DDR2 will suffice for XP. the graphic card will be fine http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/12/03/best_graphics_card/page6.html http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/169937-15-short-list-gaming-videocards-money

[innerpeace]

Before I fall asleep LOL, I installed and ran HDTune's free version, full and quick error scans and everything came up green :thumb:. I rewired/re-routed my computer a little over a week ago and a loose or bad wire/cable could have been the culprit behind the weird noise. If it comes back, I will start to worry, until then, the build continues full bore ;).

For the record, I have both Seatools for Dos (graphical) and Seatools for Dos both burned on 2 cd's. The graphical is the one the mouse or keyboard doesn't work on. I have no idea how to use the Dos (non graphical) version. The one I ran earlier was Seatools for Windows.

I'm off to bed until tomorrow. I'll check back then. Cheers

[innerpeace]

Ok, all rested up :). I re-arranged my desk today and made backups and images (thanks Hairy Coo). The case will be here tomorrow (Wed.). I think my MB is a micro ATX (9.6" X 9.6") and the P182 says "Motherboard: Up to Standard ATX (12” x 9.6”)". Before I start the swap, will my old MB work in the new case? Also, can I use a magnetized screwdriver in and around the components?

{QUOTE-> in that case get a 8190 or 8200 the lower ones or go for 8400 and put one in a budget motherboard. dual core fine. they selling out fast as there big demand. get XP 32bit. 2Gb DDR2 will suffice for XP. the graphic card will be fine http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/12/03/best_graphics_card/page6.html http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/169937-15-short-list-gaming-videocards-money <-QUOTE}
Thanks markymoo! Your right, they must be in big demand. I only see the 8400, but hopefully stock will increase when the prices drop.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> Ok, all rested up :). I think my MB is a micro ATX (9.6" X 9.6") and the P182 says "Motherboard: Up to Standard ATX (12” x 9.6”)". Before I start the swap, will my old MB work in the new case? Also, can I use a magnetized screwdriver in and around the components?
<-QUOTE}

On the RH side of the case you will see a lot of pre drilled holes-they are to accomodate the different size mobos--no probs!

I have always used a magnetic screwdriver -they are indispensible for all those times when the screws fall into some tiny unreachable crevice-just dont rub sensitive areas-the CPU etc.
As regards grounding yourself.I have only ever done that by gripping a faucet-tap-then got to work.

Innerpeace-think you should d/l the working trial version of ShadowProtect and create an image.
With SP you wont have any problems transferring the image -just in case something goes wrong.Sea Wizard cant or isnt as reliable at transferring images to new disks/computers,depending on the circumstances.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> On the RH side of the case you will see a lot of pre drilled holes-they are to accomodate the different size mobos--no probs! <-QUOTE}
Thanks! I can picture myself throwing parts against the wall if the holes didn't align LOL.

{QUOTE-> I have always used a magnetic screwdriver -they are indispensible for all those times when the screws fall into some tiny unreachable crevice-just dont rub sensitive areas-the CPU etc.
As regards grounding yourself.I have only ever done that by gripping a faucet-tap-then got to work. <-QUOTE}
Good to know, I'll avoid the cpu. I also wash my hands before entering the case and ground myself often to the case sides.

{QUOTE-> Innerpeace-think you should d/l the working trial version of ShadowProtect and create an image.
With SP you wont have any problems transferring the image -just in case something goes wrong.Sea Wizard cant or isnt as reliable at transferring images to new disks/computers,depending on the circumstances. <-QUOTE}
That's a very good and smart idea and most people wouldn't have thought of it. I did backup my D: data drive manually (copy and paste) today and that's probably the most important stuff I have. I honestly don't mind reinstalling windows because there are a couple things I would have done differently and would like to change. I also don't have many programs installed either. I'll think about it though because it is a very good idea.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace
Good idea-just b/u your data and do a new install on a new SATA or on the external/internal SATA-bit risky on the clunky old IDE.
The case isnt grounded unless everything is plugged ie power cables.

[markymoo]

Here's some guide with pictures fitting a motherboard. The general rules apply.

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/145/2
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1970648,00.asp

Just only put brass mounted standoffs where the holes are for the motherboard. Do not put standoffs in every hole in base of the case. No metal must be touching the motherboard. It maybe those are mounted already in the Antec case.

The 8400 came out in Febuary but only a few. Stock has dried up. In Uk can only get a 8200 at this time The other models have to wait until tomorrow. Alot have pre-ordered be trouble getting for awhile. There is still surplus stocks of quad core 6600 around so expect a good price on those.

Here's another review that compares the differences between the Antec P180 and the P182.
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=8863&page=1

Decent closeup pics of P180 similar from page 1 onwards
http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews/Antec%20p180%20review/index.htm

That door is doublehinged but just be careful you dont snap it off. Only issue i got is airflow is reduced when the door is closed but be fine for your hardware. Theres multiple fans.

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo

Nice aids for building!

The p180 had the standoffs mounted only for the standard mobo.

Think the Hexus reviewer must have had all the fans set at low,which really isnt that effective-at medium the thermal qualities would have been improved quite a bit-at high its like a freezer-didnt agree with him about the cooling.
I also have a 12" fan on the top drive cage,which assists-giving a total of 4-12" fans.

[lucas1985]

How to build a system (http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/13671/2) :)

[innerpeace]

Phew!!! Hi everyone. I just spent the last 6 hours transferring my hardware from my old computer to my new P182. I wish I had a video tape of the whole ordeal so you all could watch the bloopers lol. For a case that cost's $170, you think they might include a couple pics in their manual :dry:. It was a great learning experience though and the only thing I couldn't figure out is hooking up the Power LED. My old case had a two wire /two connector plug. The P182 has a 2 wire/3 connector plug. I didn't want to screw something up so I left unplugged. Any ideas? Also, what does the reset do or why is it different than the power button? My old machine didn't have one, but the MB had the "rst" so I hooked it up.

With all three fans on low, I do here some noise coming from the top fan. My temps are now CPU 30C, GPU 50C and HDD 29C. So my temps dropped 6 degrees :thumb:. I'll try gaming later and experiment with the fan speeds. When I start ordering parts, I may also add a 4th fan like Hairy Coo has done to cool the GPU. (great idea!)

The case has built in standoffs, but I still used 2 included brass one's to match my old case. Also, is it ok to plug the 4 pin fan connector into another fan connection and then to the PSU 4 pin for power? In other words I have 2 fans hooked to one PSU 4 pin.

Thanks for the links, I'll have a look when I'm thinking a little more clearer. The door is double hinged, but I'm not pushing my luck opening it all the way. The one thing I don't like about this case is it has more plastic than I care for.

Edit: I just found where the noise is coming from. If I hold my hand on top the case in the middle and push down. The noise stops. It's a humming sound from the vibration of the fan.

[Hairy Coo]

Congratulations,Innerpeace,well done!

Know the feeling-any difficult questions are never answered in manuals!
Those wretched front bezel connectors are a real misery-Asus has seen the light and provides a simple plug for its mobos to take the lot!.

The Power LED just tells you the computer is On,so isnt essential,but in my experience experimentation with these plugs wont hurt,till everything is hooked up,if you have enough M/F plugs etc
On my machine,the Power LED lights up just above the Power button-the Hard Drive LED above the Reset Button-this one flickers depending upon activity.

The Reset button of course will restart the computer outside Windows,for example when the system freezes.
Just press it to reboot-its pretty essential.

The cooling sounds good-if you get that fourth fan and point it at the card,its temp will also drop.

The top fan shouldnt be making any noise except the usual,is the fan catching anything?
On my machine there is just a generalized whirr which cant be traced to any one point-double check the fan and the mounting-it may be faulty under warranty.
Regarding the fan connectors,you are supposed to connect most of them into each other with the cable plugs,the number doesnt matter

I found Antec excellent to deal with,even here in Aus.
Just be careful not to accidentally stress the door hinges,which I did,the same for the fan filter holders.
Antec will also replace both of these if necessary under warranty,but simpler to just reglue the hinges with Bostik,which I did about 9 months ago and still working perfectly.

Otherwise a great case,(apart from the door and fan filter plastics)

Did you route all the cables behind the side plate.?

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Know the feeling-any difficult questions are never answered in manuals!
Those wretched front bezel connectors are a real misery-Asus has seen the light and provides a simple plug for its mobos to take the lot!. <-QUOTE}
Yep, I was scratching my head more than once thinking about using my sisters computer and asking what to do. I finally saw a little guide on the MB that indicated some of the bezel connectors. I needed a magnifying glass to read it lol.

{QUOTE-> The Power LED just tells you the computer is On,so isnt essential,but in my experience experimentation with these plugs wont hurt,till everything is hooked up,if you have enough M/F plugs etc
On my machine,the Power LED lights up just above the Power button-the Hard Drive LED above the Reset Button-this one flickers depending upon activity. <-QUOTE}
I went to the MSI site and downloaded the manual for my MB. Like you said, it isn't important, but if I feel energetic, I'll see what it says. Or I may just experiment. The HDD light works fine. There were 2 HDD connectors with the case.

{QUOTE-> The Reset button of course will restart the computer outside Windows,for example when the system freezes. Just press it to reboot-its pretty essential. <-QUOTE}
Thanks, I guess that would eliminate the need to do a power shutdown. Nice feature.

{QUOTE-> The cooling sounds good-if you get that fourth fan and point it at the card,its temp will also drop. <-QUOTE}
I like the cooling so far and I do want the other fan.

See my edit in my last post about the top fan. It's not the fan, it's the case and it's a humming sound. I put a pack of cd's on top and the noise stops. I'll have a look inside tomorrow to see if I can find if something isn't right. It's also good to hear the number of fan connectors doesn't matter. I'll also watch the plastic hinges and use caution. It's nice that Antec has good service too :).

{QUOTE-> Did you route all the cables behind the side plate.? <-QUOTE}
I did route some of them that way. If and when I get a new PSU, I will make sure everything is long enough. Some things were a stretch to reach. I also can't wait until I get my SATA accessories. One of my new round IDE cables isn't quite long enough. It works, but it's ugly.

On the lower chamber divider, in front of the two sliding plastic panels is a U-shaped hole. What is it for? Is it for the MB power, but you have to remove the two sliding plastic panels to insert it in the U-shape?

[Hairy Coo]

That cut out is to route all the cabling from the bottom compartment to the top and the idea is to close it as far as possible,so as to isolate the heat from spreading to above.
Unplug the MB power cable then feed it through.

That top fan doesnt sound right,as if something is loose or out of balance-check it with a torch inside the case.

The Reset just does a dirty reboot outside of Windows like the normal restart function.
It can cause slight problems with some software because they havent shutdown properly ,for example it interrupts the ShadowProtect full/incremental schedule-so dont use it unless necessary.I only use it to get out of freezes.

Anyway you are on the road to a top system;D

[innerpeace]

Thank you Hairy Coo. I took a quick peek and there may be a wire pinched between the top fan and the case. I will have to wait until tomorrow to fix it. There is definitely a vibration near that fan.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> markymoo

Nice aids for building!

The p180 had the standoffs mounted only for the standard mobo.

Think the Hexus reviewer must have had all the fans set at low,which really isnt that effective-at medium the thermal qualities would have been improved quite a bit-at high its like a freezer-didnt agree with him about the cooling.
I also have a 12" fan on the top drive cage,which assists-giving a total of 4-12" fans. <-QUOTE}

Theres quite alot of guides including video out there for that. Yes, thats why you don't rely on one review. The silentpc review is better. It so cold in innerpeace country i thought the ambient air would cool it more but it must be quite warm in his house and trapped air. What about the Antec vga air duct is that effective? to use for the gfx card for now? and yes more fans is not always better.

@innerpeace

Sorted you got the board in and working :) the rest is cosmetics.

I don't know the make on those Antec Fans. If i buy a cheap case i replace the noisy fans for better. The Antec is a decent design and the fans should be quality and quiet already under 20db. If a fan is vibrating you can fit rubber grommets(supplied with the fan) that the screws go into or you can fit a shroud or gasket round the edge that can create a cushion against the case. On some fans now they don't use screws but long rubber rivets that you stick through the holes and stretch the rubber tight and locks into place. Does the Antec come with anything like that?

{QUOTE->

is it ok to plug the 4 pin fan connector into another fan connection and then to the PSU 4 pin for power? In other words I have 2 fans hooked to one PSU 4 pin. <-QUOTE}

yes 12V fans use little power approx 3Watts.

are those fans noisy on the higher settings?

some older motherboards don't have extra connections to fit extra usb, firewire, sound etc from the front bezel. so just leave them off. first two are reset then always miss a pin and then its two pin power. no polarity for the rest but the the hd led has a little + and - so it matters which way round. an easy way to remember is red wire always points forward to the front of the case. speaker goes opposite reset.

if you still got problems post the model of your motherboard and we sort it.

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

That VGA duct was discontinued about 9 months ago.

The Antec fans provided actually are good,quiet and move a lot of air.
The airflow and db figures are among the better ones.

Seems the fan noise problem may be an out of balance one which may be cured by a bit of readjusting.

My temp figures for the mobo area and video card did improve after fitting another internal 12 " fan