Please help w/new graphics card & system build

[innerpeace]

Hi, I have a newly installed Nvidia GeForce 8500GT. I also installed driver version 162.18 which looks to be the newest according to their website. This is the first card I have ever installed. I've heard someone mention a burn in period. Is this neccessary and if so, what do I need to do?

I've heard the temps run high on this card, I checked with speedfan and if I'm reading it correctly, it's showing 56C. If this is too hot, what can I do to lower the temps?

Also, do I need any of the optional software included on the cd and mentioned in the utility tab of the second link I posted? Can I also disable some or all of the autostarts that the driver installed? I have an emachines W3410 with XP home and 1 gig of RAM. Any other help or pointers will be greatly appreciated.

http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p_spec.asp?model=NX8500GT-TD256E_OC&class=vga

http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?func=proddesc&prod_no=1228&maincat_no=130&cat2_no=136&cat3_no=138

Thanks,
innerpeace

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> I've heard someone mention a burn in period. Is this neccessary? <-QUOTE}
Not, it isn't neccessary
{QUOTE-> it's showing 56C. If this is too hot, what can I do to lower the temps? <-QUOTE}
It's OK. You may want to check temps while you're gaming or running a stress tool (http://www.daionet.gr.jp/~masa/rthdribl/)
{QUOTE-> Also, do I need any of the optional software included on the cd and mentioned in the utility tab of the second link I posted? <-QUOTE}
They aren't neccessary and they're mostly useless.
{QUOTE-> Can I also disable some or all of the autostarts that the driver installed? <-QUOTE}
Nvidia Forceware Tweak Guide (http://www.tweakguides.com/NVFORCE_1.html)
Tidying Up (http://www.tweakguides.com/NVFORCE_4.html)
:thumb:

[Hairy Coo]

Hi Innerpeace,

Firstly forget about any myth of burning in a card,thats a new one!

I am running an 8600GT card,similar to yours and all cards do run fairly hot,compared to a CPU.
Your temp.isnt unreasonable ,depending on the ambient temp and I wouldnt worry about it unless it gets over 60c regularly.
My card has been running at about 53c for about a year without any problems.

If it does concern you or gets appreciably hotter,you can either increase the size of a nearby fan or better still,install a VGA fan,similar to here (http://www.pccasegear.com.au/category314_1.htm).(local site only)
At this stage,I would just leave it, the temp may drop a bit,after a short time in any case.

Its a good idea to install the nVidia Control Panel and access it from desktop Properties-settings-advanced -nVidia 8500,which can be done even if the autorun is disabled.This way no resources are generally used.
The Panel does have various useful adjustments for color display,resolution,video color settings

At one stage ,I disabled all Nvidia autoruns from starting up without any effects-they are mainly for viewing the NVidia Control Panel and for tweaking.CC Cleaner is a simple way to do this,under Tools-Startup.
You will probably find the nVidiaCplDaemon will revert-doesnt matter.
They do use a fair bit of resources,so disabling is not a bad idea.

[innerpeace]

Thank you Lucas for your help and the great information. I feel a little better about the temps now. I will have a look a the tweak guides and see what I can do.

Also, the GPU fan points downwards and blows through/across the heat sink fins towards the back of the computer. Would it be useful to remove a empty pci expansion bracket below the installed card and drill holes in it to let the warm air escape? I would just remove the bracket, but when it's warm here, a few small spiders occasionally find there way into the pc.

Thanks,
innerpeace

[lucas1985]

That design allows the fan (in single-slot cards) to suck fresh air and generate a good air pressure over the heatsink. Other designs (http://techreport.com/articles.x/13772) occupy two slots and do what you want to achieve (let the hot air scape)

[innerpeace]

Hi Hairy Coo :),

Thanks and it's good to hear two confirmations that the burn in period is a myth.

The card I have is supposed to be OC'd which I didn't know until after I bought it LOL. I would say that is part of the reason it's running a little warm. The vga fans look interesting. I'm really trying to keep from ordering any more hardware for awhile. I did get 2 round IDE cables for my internal burner and HDD to hopefully keep things a little cooler.

I have the Control Panel installed. I've already disabled it from the system tray and I thought the desktop properties. I see what you mean about getting to it though. I did the same with my old ATI chip.

I did see the auto starts within CCleaner. Since I reinstalled XP, I've tried to stick with one autostart program so I will see what I can disable with Autoruns.

CCleaner shows:
NvCplDaemon
NvMediaCenter
WinSys2 (I'm not sure where this came from)
nwiz

[Hairy Coo]

WinSys2 may be a trojan-better check it out.

The other three are nVidia

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> That design allows the fan (in single-slot cards) to suck fresh air and generate a good air pressure over the heatsink. Other designs (http://techreport.com/articles.x/13772) occupy two slots and do what you want to achieve (let the hot air scape) <-QUOTE}
I can't afford that one Lucas :'( . I see what you mean though and it's a great design. This card has to last a while and I will probably use it in my next computer since it's DX10 compatible. It was $65 US and it has a $20 mail-in-rebate. Much better than my on-board ATI Radeon Xpress 200.

Thanks

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> WinSys2 may be a trojan-better check it out.

The other three are nVidia <-QUOTE}
Thanks Hairy Coo, I'm checking it out now.

[Hairy Coo]

Its either a trojan or its part of the 8500 install.
If it only appeared since installing nVidia.you are probably OK.

See post half way down-MrGenie here (http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=32&threadid=2032070&enterthread=y)

[innerpeace]

Thanks! I think your right. I remember glancing over the literature that mentioned Dynamic Overclocking Technology. When I look in Autoruns it say DOT MFC application and in the properties mentions DOT.exe. I will upload to VT and see what they say. I know I scanned the driver download with Avira, SAS and A-squared before unzipping it and after unzipping it. I'll edit this post when I'm finished.

Edit: The files had been submitted before and show as clean 0/32. I checked winsys2.exe and winsys.exe.

[innerpeace]

As a quick update, I played Battlefront for a little while and then checked the temps. The GPU was at 64C and my computer processor was at 48C. Is this acceptable? I'm off to bed for now.

Thanks,
innerpeace

[DVD+R]

I installed the GIGABYTE nVidia GEForce 8600GT on my new rig with superb results,after I downloaded the GeForce Series 8 Ultra drivers for it at nVidia ;D

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> As a quick update, I played Battlefront for a little while and then checked the temps. The GPU was at 64C and my computer processor was at 48C. Is this acceptable? I'm off to bed for now.

Thanks,
innerpeace <-QUOTE}

Obviously this game is stressing both,so probably OK,certainly the CPU.
I find its best to ignore the GPU or it will drive you crazy;D
Personally I would be looking at a card fan sooner or later if it runs that hot often,it would effect the whole system temp. to some extent.
For a start, I would fit an expansion slot cooler like THIS (http://www.pccasegear.com.au/prod2852.htm)-cheap and very easy to fit.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> I installed the GIGABYTE nVidia GEForce 8600GT on my new rig with superb results,after I downloaded the GeForce Series 8 Ultra drivers for it at nVidia ;D <-QUOTE}

Are these Ultra special drivers?

[markymoo]

I wouldn't worry about your temperature too much i heard some run 8500GT upto 100C overclocked and that would i'm sure shorten the lifespan of the card. If you want a great vga cooler to bring it down alot there is this http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/thhr.html which you can also attach a 120mm fan to it and probably can use it on your next card. ThermalRight are quality. A cheap way but not so effective is buy a pci card thats 2x120mm fans mounted that you put in the next pci slot and point at the graphics but this could just circulate the hot air already and not make a hardly a difference. Ideally you need to get rid of the hot air in the case first and suck in cold air. That case is not ideal for air intake. The best way to cool a case is to create a vacuum effect with slight pressure, cold air from the front and hot air out the back. You probably have to do some DIY on your case to lower the temps. When i had this http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/890/3/page_3_in_the_box/index.html it wasn't the heat that was so much the problem which was 65C on full load it was the noise from the fan so i ended up watercooling it and cut the temps in half and no noise. That was bliss. Is your card noisy playing a game?

Can you play a game like Company of Heros http://uk.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/companyofheroes/index.html with everything turned on full and is it still playable? Download Fraps http://www.fraps.com/ This will monitor your FPS(framerate) in your game.

[innerpeace]

DVD+R, What is the difference in the Ultra drivers?

Hairy Coo, I'll have a look at the coolers and or fans. As an experiment, I removed the PCI bracket below the card and it's idling at 54C now. There is a lot of air coming out of the bracket slot now. I'll also try not to get to crazy about it :P.

markymoo, The card doesn't seem loud. I didn't think to listen when I played last night. I normally play with headphones on. At NewEgg, some people complained about the noise and others said it was quiet. One person also reported it running as warm as 70C so I guess it all depends on your machine.

I'll take a look at the different methods of cooling the card. I haven't tried any of the slightly newer games I have. There not installed yet. I did notice a big difference when playing BattleFront. I normally play on medium difficulty and I had to switch back to easy because it ran that much faster. I was gettin' my butt kicked :ouch:. I also noticed other special effects which I didn't see before. I'll see if I can install NFS Most Wanted tonight and see how it does.

Also, will the free version of FRAPS work ok. http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=149 I'm not going to worry too much about getting it perfect, but it's sort of fun knowing what my card and system can do.

Cheers

[Dieselman]

Those drivers are old. Go here for updated and tweaked drivers. I am currently using the 174.16's.

http://www.tweakforce.com/

As far as temp monitoring and overclocking and anything else you need to do. Rivatuner is the best tool.

http://downloads.guru3d.com/RivaTuner-v2.06-download-163.html

[markymoo]

I wouldn't spend anymore as it's in an e-machine. It be ok just accept it running hot and the sound isn't that bad. If you can get a FPS of between 30 and 60 that's ideal anything over is wasted as eye can't tell. The higher the resolution the lower the FPS. If you turn on anti-aliasing on full that gives you greater quality but will lower the FPS alot. So try everything on full settings and then first of all drop down anti-aliasing until above 30 FPS. If it run too slow turn anti-aliasing off and turn all other settings on full and bump up the anti-aliasing bit by bit. As i was saying the cpu might not be fast enough to catch up with everything on full. Just try to get the best graphics display and FPS between 30 and 60. Maintain your pc and tweak it to give more performance to run games faster. The reason it run faster on easy is because there be less graphics action to make it easier to play. So thats the point to know the FPS you could be running minimal graphics and too high FPS and not even using all the features. Cpu, Memory and Video affect FPS.

That's a really old version of FRAPS. Get this newer version
http://www.fraps.com/download.php

[innerpeace]

Thanks Dieselman and markymoo. I will have a look at what you suggested.

Last night, I install 'Need for Speed Most Wanted' and turned it up full. I left Vsync off because I wasn't sure was it does yet. I then ran a quick race which lasted 11 minutes. I didn't check the frame rate, but it ran great. I closed the games and checked the temp and the GPU was 80C and the CPU was 62. I know everybody gave great suggestions on coolers and fans. With knowing the above, would you advise to do something immediately?

I let the temps get down to normal and then booted to my normal everyday image. The computer wouldn't boot and just ran with all fans on high. I held the power button to turn off the computer and it wouldn't shutdown. It looped into another attempted boot with fans running on high, no BIOS or anything. I inserted one of my boot cd's and then pulled the plug. I waited a little bit the tried again and the same thing happened. It wouldn't even boot to my cds. I then waited about 20 mins. and the computer booted normally. What would cause this? Would it be the CMOS battery going bad?

Thanks for all your help,
innerpeace

Edit: How long will a graphics card continue to smell badly? It even makes me a little dizzy...

[Dieselman]

Your temps are fine. Most cards can hit 100 c is still be ok. You can set up Rivatuner to turn you fan at different speeds ant different temps. Such as I have mine to low at 55C, then medium at 60C, then full fan high at 65C. Works like a charm. Slot coolers do nothing in actuality. I leave me side cover off and have an Artic Cooler on top of my GPU. Artic Cooler,Thermatake, and Zalman all make very good coolers. Artic Cooler usually has the best and lowest temps. You don't need to reboot after gaming. I have been pc gaming for years. Send me a PM with any other questions you might have.

[innerpeace]

Thanks Dieselman, I'll look at Rivatuner and see about changing my fan speeds. I'm also going to try using a small fan blowing on my case while gaming.

[Dieselman]

This is the cooler I have on my 8800 GTX.

http://www.zalman.co.kr/ENG/product/Product_Read.asp?idx=276

[lucas1985]

innerpeace,
What PSU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_power_supply) do you have?

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> innerpeace,
What PSU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_power_supply) do you have? <-QUOTE}
Hi lucas,
It's a Antec EarthWatts 380. I bought it before my GPU because I heard that factory emachines PSU's weren't that good. http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=27380

FWIW, If your in the US, NewEgg has this for $34.99 while supplies last. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371005

Dieselman,
That's a nice cooler. I really like the looks of the Zalman models.

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> It's a Antec EarthWatts 380. <-QUOTE}
It sould be OK. I'd check cabling, contacts (RAM, heatsinks), clean dust before another gaming session.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> It sould be OK. I'd check cabling, contacts (RAM, heatsinks), clean dust before another gaming session. <-QUOTE}
Thanks! I'll take another look at the connections. I replaced 2 ribbon IDE cables with round one's at the same time I installed the GPU. Maybe one of them didn't get seated properly.

[Coolio10]

{QUOTE-> This is the cooler I have on my 8800 GTX.

http://www.zalman.co.kr/ENG/product/Product_Read.asp?idx=276 <-QUOTE}
Hehe looks like a sting ray.

The wire in the back and 2 sides :D

Wow 8800 GTX. You can probably play crysis?

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,

If your temps were 80c and 62c AFTER play,then they were certainly a lot higher whilst playing and maintining that high temp.
Could well be the BIOS shutting down because of the high temps.

I know these temps are considered almost normal at times by some,but depending on your other hardware and the case cooling capability,may well be too high for you.

If it happens frequently,would seriously consider better cooling-solutions such as an external fan pointing at the case,removing a slot cover etc,have no effect.

Probably not a worry at all until stressed.

[innerpeace]

Hairy Coo,

I'm ok with the temps when not gaming. The 80C (GPU) and 62C (CPU) while gaming bother me a little. The reason is it's not an extended play like for over an hour at a time. I definitely want the temps down some and I'm experimenting with the external fan which helps a little. I'll also consider removing a slot cover and I need to find out more of how to increase my case fan speed. I only installed Speedfan as a cautionary measure and I know nothing about how to use it and which fan is which.

About the BIOS shutting down. I thought about that too, but I let the temps come down to normal before I rebooted. But I guess something could have been triggered to shut down. I also notice that the BIOS screens at boot are appearing and disappearing much faster than ever before. I may have messed something up when trying to get the computer booted when it wouldn't. Another reason for quickness may be due to the 128MB freed up by installing the GPU. My factory onboard graphics was using the 128MB. I may just decide to reinstall XP again and this time make an clean image before I install my drivers. I didn't do that last time :ouch:.

By the way, how do you control your fan speeds?

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,
External fan and removing the slot cover dont help at all to any practical extent-pointless reinstalling XP for this-dont worry about the BIOS screen disappearing etc.
In your case -just turn your fans to max.
If your CPU isnt powerful-it may now be stressed beyond its normal capacity and causing the BIOS to shutdown
If you are happy just to leave as is until the shutdown happens next time ,this may be best,but if this happens often you may need additional fans INSIDE the case,unless you have detected some other hardware fault

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> If your CPU isnt powerful-it may now be stressed beyond its normal capacity and causing the BIOS to shutdown <-QUOTE}
I think you could be right. Someone else mentioned that my processor might end up being the bottleneck. I only have a AMD Athlon 64 3200+ (2.2GHz) and 1 Gig of DDR PC3200 CAS3 RAM. I'm also running the original BIOS, DX9c, drivers etc. that came with this machine (2 1/2 years old).

My computer sits 6 inches off the floor and it's always cool. The floor is carpet sitting on concrete. It's also Winter here in the US, so my computer temps aren't going to get any better. I'll see what I can do to decrease the comps temps. I'm also going to start collecting parts to build my first machine. One that can handle the card or a slightly better one. It will be a budget build.

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> I'm also going to start collecting parts to build my first machine. One that can handle the card or a slightly better one. It will be a budget build. <-QUOTE}
Check this one (http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14225/2). A cheap, but powerful rig for everything but the most demanding task :)

[Hairy Coo]

Maybe you have plenty of power etc-check the minimum specs for the card.
In the meantime dont worry unless it happens again.
Pretty cold in West Virginia?;D

[markymoo]

That smell is probably from the thermal paste heating up so much on the gfx/c making you dizzy. Collecting Parts? get a great case that is designed for cooling on your next build like an Antec case.

@Dieselman
The Thermalright Ultra gets a higher rating than the Zalman cooler.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> get a great case that is designed for cooling on your next build like an Antec case.
<-QUOTE}

P182 to be exact,my duo core is running at 27c.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Check this one (http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14225/2). A cheap, but powerful rig for everything but the most demanding task :) <-QUOTE}
Thanks for the link. Hmmm, I could use my ext. Seagate HDD, my new Pioneer burner and my new GPU and it would be under $300. I do like the Antec boxes, they look very well built.

{QUOTE-> Pretty cold in West Virginia? <-QUOTE}
Very! How's -13C sound :P

{QUOTE-> That smell is probably from the thermal paste heating up so much on the gfx/c making you dizzy. Collecting Parts? get a great case that is designed for cooling on your next build like an Antec case.
<-QUOTE}
Thanks, the smell isn't as bad tonight. I've been looking around at NewEgg and the Antec cases are sweet.

[markymoo]

if it -13 i surprised you getting high temps just stand the pc in the doorway lol. what is the ambient air temperature outside your case? that antec P182 is the original classic it should be very cheap now but theres others that just as good and better design and a few are budget. goto the Antec site. next month a new Intel motherboard chipset comes out, X48 which is what the X38 chipset should of been. so prices should drop on alot boards and Intel cut there prices on cpu chips in April so price falls again. A good time to buy.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> if it -13 i surprised you getting high temps just stand the pc in the doorway lol. <-QUOTE}

A polar bear might eat it;D

[Dieselman]

{QUOTE-> That smell is probably from the thermal paste heating up so much on the gfx/c making you dizzy. Collecting Parts? get a great case that is designed for cooling on your next build like an Antec case.

@Dieselman
The Thermalright Ultra gets a higher rating than the Zalman cooler. <-QUOTE}
I know but I didn't like the Thermalright.

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> Very! How's -13C sound :P <-QUOTE}
In the last winter (July) we reached that wind chill (temperature of -7º C). That was the coldest winter in fifty years and we saw snow (http://www.5900.com.ar/nieve.htm) for the first time in forty-one years :o

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> In the last winter (July) we reached that wind chill (temperature of -7º C). That was the coldest winter in fifty years and we saw snow for the first time in forty-one years :o <-QUOTE}
Standing on the Eiffel Tower?:)

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> Standing on the Eiffel Tower?:) <-QUOTE}
I'm not French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Mar%C3%ADa) ;D

[markymoo]

What do polar bears like to eat in the cold?

A brrrrrr grrrrrr

I experienced the first earthquake in my life 2 days ago. It was magnitude 5.6 first one in 25 years.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> if it -13 i surprised you getting high temps just stand the pc in the doorway lol. what is the ambient air temperature outside your case? that antec P182 is the original classic it should be very cheap now but theres others that just as good and better design and a few are budget. goto the Antec site. next month a new Intel motherboard chipset comes out, X48 which is what the X38 chipset should of been. so prices should drop on alot boards and Intel cut there prices on cpu chips in April so price falls again. A good time to buy. <-QUOTE}
Ambient temp around the case is probably in the mid 60's F. I have a lot of cool air leaking into my apartment 24/7.

Waiting a while before getting a MB or chip sounds like a good plan plus it gives me time to learn more about the processors. I like the idea of saving money too :).

{QUOTE-> A polar bear might eat it <-QUOTE}
LOL, no polar bears here, only black bears. A deer may nibble a bit on the case though.

[markymoo]

thats the problem with air cooling your pc temp is always higher than the ambient air temp around it. if you could somehow funnel that cold air from outside into your case that be great. heat rises so cutting a hole at the top would help the heat escape. if you smoke you could blow some smoke into the case to see how the air circulates and have better understanding of how the airflow travels and then adjust your fans in a better position. i now understand the meaning of your avatar in such a cold place. not robot but frozen man. 120mm fans are always useful even if you just point them downwards at your motherboard that helps cool the NB too as in Hairy Coo too. The gfx card giving off so much heat its heating up the inside of the case so much. Have you tried taking the lid off the case?

[innerpeace]

I just took the side off my case 5 minutes ago and the GPU temps went 56C to 50C and the CPU from 40C to 34C.

I don't smoke either, but thats a good trick

[Hairy Coo]

All as markymoo said ,seems like that hot air is being trapped so the best long term solution is to cut that hole in the case top,ideally mount an exhaust fan there, powered from inside the case .

Try to upgrade your internal fans to something larger.

A quick solution would be to buy an Antec p182 case and transfer the hardware-it comes with 3- 120mm fans and two more can be fitted!

You can always keep the case for when you upgrade

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> All as markymoo said ,seems like that hot air is being trapped so the best long term solution is to cut that hole in the case top,ideally mount an exhaust fan there, powered from inside the case . <-QUOTE}
Yes, you all are right. The air is being trapped. Temps have now declined to as low as 48C GPU and 29C CPU. The P182 Antec case is nice, very nice but it's $150 on sale at the site I shop at. The cheapest Antecs are $89 (P180 w/3 fans) and $79 (Solo w/1 fan). I think the Solo is the one I can get at the same price ($79) with the Antec 380watt PSU included. It's the one in the link that Lucas posted.

I will figure something out. Everyone gave very good advice and I have learned a lot. I will do a little more experimenting with the advice given. I'll look at adding a fan first and then go from there. Thanks to everyone that posted, your support is invaluable.

innerpeace

[Hairy Coo]

Review here (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1833165,00.asp)

Buy the Antec 180-basically the same (and the prior model to the 182) except for a few details which dont effect the cooling(ability to hide cabling,external fan switches)-its the one I'm using-looks the same too.
My CPU is 26c-ambient about 24c.
Use your existing PSU.
Its also quite silent-insulated sides.:thumb:

another review here (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article254-page1.html)

[markymoo]

right :thumb: then just run it with the lid removed and don't worry about the looks if in a safe location.

in an decent case with good airflow it can actually run cooler with side panel or lid on. the temps can go up when you take the side panel off but with it on there is a vacuum effect where the hot air is being forced out as the cooler air comes in thats if you place the fans in the right location. thats why i always have more fans blowing out situated at back of case and less fans blowing in at front. there is better cooling if the air is slightly pressured and wins over more air being blasted in which is contrary to what alot believe. you have to concentrate on getting rid of the hot air that's there already. btw those temp sensors are not always so accurate but give you an idea that why i like to use 2.

[lucas1985]

The drawback of negative air pressure is increased dust accumulation.

[markymoo]

yes thats the price you pay for lower temps but a quick blast with my vacuum sorts that out once in awhile.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE->

Buy the Antec 180-basically the same (and the prior model to the 182) except for a few details which dont effect the cooling(ability to hide cabling,external fan switches)-its the one I'm using-looks the same too.
My CPU is 26c-ambient about 24c.
Use your existing PSU.
Its also quite silent-insulated sides.:thumb:
<-QUOTE}


I dont think it worth spending that much on an Antec on his current hardware but just live with his high temps. Best he buy a new case like an Antec for his new hardware in the future and dump his current system and use the g/c from it. If he buys a Antec for his current setup and wants to get new hardware later on he have to transfer his old hardware back into the old case if he wants it working to be used by someone else. Maybe he can find a cheaper case like he was saying. The Antec NSK4480B is half the price and buy a Antec P180 or the Antec Nine Hundred for his next system. Coolermaster do great budget quality designs like the Centurion 5. I get 16C-18C on idle with watercooling so your temps sound too good on air.

[Hairy Coo]

OK markymoo-guess you are right,it snot worth going any further with the current setup-but he could buy a P180 for $80-which is about half original price.Youve almost convinced me about watercooling,but I have these visions about waking up and finding the house awash with cooling water :)
Here are my temps-the white are the HDDs,black dualcore-using an Antec P180 case and Ultra Extreme cooler.
The yellow and red is Processor Status-giving CPU loading instantly

[markymoo]

Hairy Coo

i missed that on the 1/2 price sale. that 180 or 182 can be used for watercooling too. no it's very safe you use 7/16" tubing on 1/2" barbs and then you force on the tubing over the barbs as its smaller but stretches so tightly on. you need some serious force to get it off again and the water pressure wont force it off. you don't even need any hoseclamps its so tight. this also makes it look neater too. you test all with no pc parts for 48 hours and if no leaks you good to go. i just topped up with a cup of water only once in 4 months due to evaporation. distilled water is not conductive. there are so many cases where the entire pc been soaked or spillages in distilled and everything still works. you also use other non conductive liquids. i never had a leak. its very safe. if you ever get don't ever buy a watercooling kit as there inferior.

Great temps. What processor is it again? The Thermalright IFX-14 seems to be better than the Ultra Extreme.

Benchmark charts for Air coolers
http://artco.adsl24.co.uk/markymoo/air1.gif
http://artco.adsl24.co.uk/markymoo/air2.png

[innerpeace]

I checked out one of the P180 review links that Hairy Coo posted. After reading it, I really like what I see. I can't get it now so it will be for my first build sometime this year. I like the idea of it having 3 fans.

I tried gaming a little more last night with the side off and temps stayed lower and cooled more quickly. The highest I saw was 62C GPU and 50C CPU. This was with Battlefront on highest settings.

I took another hard look at my case fan and it measures 10cm. I also noticed that it has extra holes for a larger fan :D. I assumed that those holes were part of the holes made to vent the fan :-[.

I'm not sure how to use speedfan to increase the case fan speed. Can I do this in the 'PC Health Status' section in the BIOS? Here are my default settings. Also, what should my CPU temps be at idle and what temps should it never reach?

Smart system fan target [ 40C ]
Smart system fan tolerance [ 3 ]

Smart CPU fan target [ 50C]
Smart CPU fan tolerance [ 5 ]

Thanks all,
innerpeace

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

Really impressive results on your part-the low temps,the o/c(4000:thumb: ) and the crystal clear graphic-all excellent!
Congratulations!

Probably will get a completely new rig when a few more hardware advances are made and will then get your advice about watercooling etc.

My CPU is a E6600 o/c to 3.4mhz,cant get it any higher,but may try increasing the voltages some more.Believe 3.6 is about the max.
A stress test at 3.4 results in max temps around 55c.
That Thermalright cooler is slightly better- hadnt heard of it-weighs 3.5 lbs!!

Innerpeace

The holes are probably for mounting a 12cm fan-but you need at least another two fans in the case,if you only have one-one inlet-one exhaust-one top exhaust if possible-all balanced for air pressure and flow.

Anyway-will let Markymoo give his expert advice;D

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> The holes are probably for mounting a 12cm fan-but you need at least another two fans in the case,if you only have one-one inlet-one exhaust-one top exhaust if possible-all balanced for air pressure and flow. <-QUOTE}
Yes, the holes are 12cm apart. I'm going to go ahead and get a 120mm fan to replace my current case fan. There isn't much room at the top of this little box to install a fan. Just a little room between the PSU and DVD burner. I don't know of anywhere else I could mount a third fan unless I could find a way to install one up front blowing backwards or install one on the removable side panel that I would have to disconnect every time I removed it.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> I checked out one of the P180 review links that Hairy Coo posted. After reading it, I really like what I see. I can't get it now so it will be for my first build sometime this year. I like the idea of it having 3 fans.

I tried gaming a little more last night with the side off and temps stayed lower and cooled more quickly. The highest I saw was 62C GPU and 50C CPU. This was with Battlefront on highest settings.

I took another hard look at my case fan and it measures 10cm. I also noticed that it has extra holes for a larger fan :D. I assumed that those holes were part of the holes made to vent the fan :-[.

I'm not sure how to use speedfan to increase the case fan speed. Can I do this in the 'PC Health Status' section in the BIOS? Here are my default settings. Also, what should my CPU temps be at idle and what temps should it never reach?

Smart system fan target [ 40C ]
Smart system fan tolerance [ 3 ]

Smart CPU fan target [ 50C]
Smart CPU fan tolerance [ 5 ]

Thanks all,
innerpeace <-QUOTE}

There's room for a slightly bigger fan but it's not going to make much of a difference. Its like an oven inside. I seen the pic of your case from the front only. I don't want to recommend you start hacking your case to bits (especially if you going to sell it again) but make some kind of extra ventilation would be worthwhile. You can only do so much with that kind of case. What would benefit is cutting out a hole(borehole) for the side panel or top to take a 120mm fan which would be directly above the gfx card and see if theres enough clearance inside for 3/4" fan depth. There could be some obstructions in front of your fans so maybe possible to reduce these.

Take a look at these to give you an idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqFYLCli9qY
http://www.modders-inc.com/modules.php?name=NDHow-To&op=Story&ndht_id=23

Unless the fan is connected to the motherboard you won't be able to control the speed of the fan and then it has to be a 4 pin connector(can get a 4 pin adapter) or get a fan controller. If the fan connected to the PSU then forget it. You won't be able to adjust it in the bios either. The smaller the fan the more noise it makes and can make alot more noise if obstruction.

A table that list the Max Temp for Amd. It be around 70C.
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/143/9
They run around 25-40 on idle depending on ambient air temp.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> markymoo,

Really impressive results on your part-the low temps,the o/c(4000:thumb: ) and the crystal clear graphic-all excellent!
Congratulations!

Probably will get a completely new rig when a few more hardware advances are made and will then get your advice about watercooling etc.

My CPU is a E6600 o/c to 3.4mhz,cant get it any higher,but may try increasing the voltages some more.Believe 3.6 is about the max.
A stress test at 3.4 results in max temps around 55c.
That Thermalright cooler is slightly better- hadnt heard of it-weighs 3.5 lbs!!

<-QUOTE}

:thumb: that was in 2006 i havent bothered upgrading since then i wait another year. DDR2 is fantastic price at moment. 4GB for $100 :) that X48 chipset will make DDR3 official so probably see DDR2 fall further. waste of money getting DDR3 this year. overclocking to its limit is not so beneficial for general use as the heat reduces performance and cpu throttles back. best to strike a balance. coolers now weigh upto 4lbs but no stress on board as they come with anchor ropes!

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> There's room for a slightly bigger fan but it's not going to make much of a difference. Its like an oven inside. I seen the pic of your case from the front only. I don't want to recommend you start hacking your case to bits (especially if you going to sell it again) but make some kind of extra ventilation would be worthwhile. You can only do so much with that kind of case. What would benefit is cutting out a hole(borehole) for the side panel to take a 120mm fan which would be directly above the gfx card and see if theres enough clearance inside for 3/4" fan depth. There could be some obstructions in front of your fans so maybe possible to reduce these. <-QUOTE}
Thanks markymoo for the links. Both my CPU and case fan have 3 pin connectors hooked to the MB. So, you don't think that replacing the existing case fan with a better 120mm fan with an adjustable switch will work? Noise is not a problem. What if I did that and used the old fan, kept it hooked to the MB and installed it like you suggested around the GPU? Of course I would try them one at a time to avoid cutting a hole in the side panel.

Both sides of my case have 2" high vents, 1" up from the bottom of the case, almost the entire length of the sides. On the CPU side, it has a cpu vent, no duct. That's basically it except for what ever comes in from the front. I tried removing the plastic piece around the media reader to let more air in the front and it had no effect. I could feel the air moving, but it didn't help the temps. I wonder if installing the new fan and duct taping part of the lower inlets would help? Don't laugh :P. Wouldn't that force more front to back air movement? Of coarse I would consider a balance between in and out airflow. FWIW, I have helped install a few heating and air systems while I was a carpenter and I have also helped build a dirt modified from the ground up including the sheet metal.

[DVD+R]

Sorry it took a day or 2 to answer questions about the nVidia Ultra Drivers, but for those that ask here you go....8)

nVidia GeFORCE 9 Release 174 WHQL

http://www.nvidia.com/object/winvista_x86_174.16.html

nVidia GeFORCE 8 Ultra ForceWare Release 169 WHQL


http://www.nvidia.com/object/winvista_x86_169.25_whql.html

[Dieselman]

You can mod the 174.16's to use on any card. Right now I am using the 174.20's. Make sure to use Drive Sweeper in safe mode also.

http://downloads.guru3d.com/ForceWare-174.20-XP-(32-bit)-download-1866.html

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,

Two alternatives

(1) just leave side off permanently(will collect junk),but easy to clean with vacuum cleaner plastic nozzle-quite safe.

(2)Leave 10" in front-fit powerful 12" or larger if possible at rear exhaust-THEN cut hole in side panel and fit intake fan-near graphics card-connect to other cabling with long cable so no problem taking off side.
All this is so easy to do.More air should be exhausting than entering by a small amount-negative pressure-the fan specs will tell all.
Forget about easy fixes which wont do much at all.
Dont get adjustable speed fans-thats for when you have enough cooling and can afford to turn the speed down-just get powerful low noise fans .

[markymoo]

its the kind of case unless you do something drastic like fitting 2x80mm or 120mm at the side and getting rid out of the hot air then forget it just live with it with the panel off. you've stuck a hot graphics card in a case that wasn't designed for it, its an emachine case. whenever you upgrade use the gfx on next one pc and stick your old gfx back in em. fans run at full speed, if they were motherboard controlled they would i'm sure be going as fast as they can due to the heat. you would only be able to slow them down. if you a carpenter you have no problem cutting out holes in the top or the panel :P let it breathe. my best advice is start collecting those parts you can get so much for so little these days. a intel cpu would enhance your graphics and give you much more power. Just get a cheap Intel Core 2 Duo E4500 and cheap motherboard and this will crush your 3200+ you be able to get a case, cpu, 2gb memory and motherboard for $280

case - great cooling for your needs with extra space to fit more fans
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119068
pics
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?CurImage=11-119-068-06.jpg&Image=11-119-068-15.jpg%2c11-119-068-03.jpg%2c11-119-068-17.jpg%2c11-119-068-06.jpg%2c11-119-068-04.jpg%2c11-119-068-05.jpg%2c11-119-068-11.jpg%2c11-119-068-18.jpg%2c11-119-068-13.jpg%2c11-119-068-12.jpg%2c11-119-068-19.jpg%2c11-119-068-20.jpg&S7ImageFlag=0&WaterMark=1&Depa=0&Description=COOLER+MASTER+Centurion+5+CAC-T05-UW+Black+Computer+Case
cpu
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115031&Tpk=intel%2bcore%2b2%2bcpu%2be4500
motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127024
memory
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145098

[innerpeace]

Thanks once again Hairy Coo and markymoo. You all are telling me the same thing, so I just have to live with it. I'll leave the side off for now until some other arrangement can be made.

{QUOTE-> All this is so easy to do.More air should be exhausting than entering by a small amount-negative pressure-the fan specs will tell all. <-QUOTE}
Thanks for this, it will help me if and when I make the mods.

markymoo, your are right, I stuck a hot gfx card in a bad case. All my heat is coming from the card. I am going to start saving for parts. Thanks for the suggested parts and the links. That case looks pretty good, even better now that the price of the P180 went back up to $130 :'( . I am going to wait until the prices drop on the chips like you said they should in the near future after intel releases it's new chips. Expect a PM when that happens ;D. Trust me, I'm soooo tempted in getting what you suggested right now. I would also have to consider the cost of an OS and decide which I wanted. I really don't want Vista, but I heard the prices fell this week.

Thanks,
innerpeace

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo
nice basic system!!:thumb:
Innerpeace
stay with XP

[markymoo]

its onboard graphics right on that emachine not a seperate card when i said stick the old card back in if you upgrade.

Sort your hardware out first! You don't even need Vista even if it free. It won't do you any favours. Put the money into getting a tidy system. That spec was a good example of hardware that exceed your current system alot for little cost will work well together in a decent budget case. If you want Vista for DirectX 10 there's little out for that and needs heavy hardware. You need 2gb+ for Vista ideally. Keep focused on collecting parts.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> its onboard graphics right on that emachine not a seperate card when i said stick the old card back in if you upgrade. <-QUOTE}
Yep, it's an integrated Radeon Xpress 200. I knew what you meant though. You are very thorough :thumb:.

{QUOTE-> Sort your hardware out first! You don't even need Vista even if it free. It won't do you any favours. Put the money into getting a tidy system. Vista for DirectX 10 but needs heavy hardware. Keep focused on collecting parts. <-QUOTE}
I will get XP, I really like it anyways. This time I would like to get XP Pro if I can. I also think you and Hairy Coo are tag teaming me LOL. Seriously, if you all keep agreeing on things, then both of your suggestions must be good.

I have a question about SLI as my card has this capability. Would I need 2 PCI express x16 slots to make it work? I'm thinking about future proofing my MB investment.

[lucas1985]

Don't bother with SLI. It isn't worthwhile (unless you pump gold out of your nose and have a huge display)

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Don't bother with SLI. It isn't worthwhile (unless you pump gold out of your nose and have a huge display) <-QUOTE}
LOL! Ok thanks, I won't worry about it. There is no gold or a big display here. If I did pump gold out my nose, I would send you a tissue :P.

[markymoo]

lol

lucas right. it creates headaches using SLI and you need a BIG monitor to take advantage of very high resolutions. you can get so much power on 1 card anyway theres little point unless you mega rich. you thinking of SLI and Vista lol when you should be saving for the basics like cpu memory and motherboard.

[innerpeace]

I didn't research SLI. From a review at newegg, someone suggested getting 2 of the cards I currently have and running them together. I would imagine it would be very hard to keep cool.

I only mentioned Vista because of DX10 which my card was capable of running. Personally, I would rather skip Vista all together. As far as a monitor, I plan on getting a 19" at the end of the year if the price is right. I see no reason for a larger monitor for computing.

I've looked over 2 guides showing how to build a computer. I think I can handle the build, but the BIOS stuff looks difficult. I'm not going to worry about it now though. I'm going to focus on the hardware. I could buy the parts now, but I admit that I am cheap and want to save money. I will trade patience for a few bucks here and there. I want to see older Intel chips hit there lowest price and then I will jump. I also really want that P180 case when it goes back on sale.

Cheers

[markymoo]

sure. i'm saying don't be swayed on impulse buying something you don't need when there's other hardware prioritys. there's still so many directx 9 great games around to play. if you can sort out your hardware first then you can be content on being able to run any game,software you throw at it.

Here is a chart of all cpus. You at no. 50 in the charts.

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/common_cpus.html

Your 3200+ is equal to Pentium 4 2.2 If you get a cheap intel you be in the top 20 on that list.

Forget the monitor. You existing 1024 is fine. Its pointless buying 19" if you intent on gaming as your pc be too slow to run at 1200+ res. It better to run lower resolution with more graphic settings turned on. Forget about BIOS. Alot good settings are set on auto already. You can learn these in time. You need to save up and get these in this order. Case > Cpu > Motherboard > Memory. You can get away buying a cheap case if it got good cooling features and put it towards the next item. The P180 good to get if you going to keep it a long time as it bigger than what you need and you upgrade further still otherwise buy a smaller case and cheaper. Yes wait till April at least.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE->

I've looked over 2 guides showing how to build a computer. I think I can handle the build, but the BIOS stuff looks difficult. I'm not going to worry about it now though.

Cheers <-QUOTE}

Really quite surprisingly simple,just a matter of slotting bits and pieces into place.Just show who the boss is!
As regrettably the instructions books always omit exactly the info you need- a bit of trial and error may be needed,but even then,it usually works out OK.
The BIOS is by and large preset and until you get to the overclocking stage-is really easy and well documented.
Think you will enjoy the build. :)

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Here is a chart of all cpus. You at no. 50 in the charts. <-QUOTE}
Actually, I'm at no. 47 ;D. I have an Athlon 64 3200+. Thanks for the link, it should help a lot in comparing the different types of processors.

{QUOTE-> Forget the monitor. You existing 1024 is fine. Its pointless buying 19" if you intent on gaming as your pc be too slow to run at 1200+ res. It better to run lower resolution with more graphic settings turned on. Forget about BIOS. Alot good settings are set on auto already. You can learn these in time. You need to save up and get these in this order. Case > Cpu > Motherboard > Memory. You can get away buying a cheap case if it got good cooling features and put it towards the next item. The P180 good to get if you going to keep it a long time as it bigger than what you need and you upgrade further still otherwise buy a smaller case and cheaper. Yes wait till April at least. <-QUOTE}
I won't make any impulse buys, trust me ;). I'm just really tired of staring at a 15" D-sub LCD. I wouldn't get a monitor until after I build my system. I want my next pc purchase to be long term. I'll try to get the best and most I can with whatever money I have. The P180 would be a long term investment, but I'll only buy it at a sale price. Great cooling is a must with whatever case I end up buying.

{QUOTE-> Really quite surprisingly simple,just a matter of slotting bits and pieces into place.Just show who the boss is!
As regrettably the instructions books always omit exactly the info you need- a bit of trial and error may be needed,but even then,it usually works out OK.
The BIOS is by and large preset and until you get to the overclocking stage-is really easy and well documented.
Think you will enjoy the build. <-QUOTE}
Thanks for the encouragement :). You and markymoo have eased my mind about the BIOS settings. Now, if the darn prices would drop some, I could start building.

[markymoo]

Talking of prices dropping this high performance 4Gb memory is a bargain. Awesome Performance. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231145

[Hairy Coo]

Yea,but will they deliver to UK or Aus.

[innerpeace]

They only deliver in the US :( . That's a pretty good price for 4 gigs.

I have a question for you both. I was wanting to give my old computer away, but the person wants to get a laptop instead so I was thinking about taking my existing system and putting in a new case until I get the new MB, CPU and memory. Hairy Coo suggested doing this earlier.

I'm looking at the Antec P182 and it's on sale with a rebate so with shipping it would be a little under $120. The Antec 900 is also on sale with free shipping and it's $120 without the hassles of a rebate. This is a long term investment and will not effect my other purchases. I like the looks of the P182 better, but the 900 has 4 fans. What do you all think?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129021

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129025

[lucas1985]

P182 > 900 :)

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace;

The PI82 is probably quieter as it has insulated sides and a front door and comes with 3 12" fans,but wouldnt make too much of this,as it has a lot of gaps in the insulation which must let through noise.
The 900 is more conventional, .
Probably with the large fans set at medium speed,there wouldnt be much in it as regards noise

Both should be excellent as regards cooling.

Should imagine the 900 would be easier to work with as regards installation.
The PSU is at the top on the 900,but bottom on the182.
The 182 is a bit cramped, installing the SATA cables and the PSU cabling is fiddly.
Also if you are going to use your existing PSU there is a chance that some of the main cables wont be long enough.
If its an Antec you should be OK.

I also like the lack of a front door on the 900
My P180 has a left hinged door,which has broken off the hinges twice and is a bit of a pain,as I have positioned the computer on the right and also its not so easy to access the buttons or the DVD drive etc.

The 182 probably looks more attractive and in practice may be marginally quieter and cooler than the 900-

BUT all things considered in your case probably the 900 may be preferable.

Looking forward to your new build ;D

edit; notice you prefer the looks of the 182,which is very stylish. If you dont mind getting another 12" fan for the inside (not essential) and dont mind the installation of some cabling being probabaly more fiddly-then BUY IT-you will be looking at it for a long time!!

[Dieselman]

I have the Antec 900 case and i love it.

[innerpeace]

Thanks Lucas and Hairy Coo.

I think the hinge is on the left side of the front panel of the P182. If the hinge is plastic, that would be bad. My computer also sits on the right. As far as wiring, I do have an Antec Earthwatts 380 watt PSU. The cables are not modular though.

The P182 is the Gun Metal Stainless steel which I love and from a little more reading, I guess it's heavy too. It also has room for an optional 120mm front fan and a 120mm middle fan for the GPU. Like you said, the wiring can be a pain. Thanks for the details and first hand experience Hairy Coo, that's what I'm looking for :).

The 900 probably can run things cooler by default but it looks like it might suck in a lot of dust. I'm getting close to 40 in age so the lights aren't important to me but I do like the idea of a window for visual inspection of the CPU fan. It isn't as tall as the P182 either. Actually, the PSU is mounted at the bottom, but without the whole isolated lower chamber configuration like the P182. My PSU gets warm, so it might not work well in this case. You can also mount another fan in the windowed vent area. The audio jacks are on top and I use my headphones often and I'm a little worried about stress on the connection.

Overall, I'm leaning toward the P182 as one day this case may end up as a home business machine. It's also the more expensive of the 2. It even has ports for external water cooling if I ever go that route which I doubt. The 900 would keep the HDD's cooler with it's 2 front fans. Ok, I'm done thinking aloud. I have 10 days to think about it before the sale on one of them ends.

Cheers,
innerpeace

Edit: After going here http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=81820 and viewing the video demo and the demo animation. I think I'm sold on the P182.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,
The hinged door,which is the same on the 180 and 182, relies on plastic posts,which broke on mine-but its easy just to Bostik glue the posts-as good as new.
Actually I received a replacement door unit without any problems from Antec under warranty, the first time
The door can be closed when running, to keep out wild deer,black bears etc:)

With the bottom mounted PSU-there is a drive cage in front of it with a 12" fan to cool the drives and the PSU-quite adequate.
My drive temps are 42 and 43c.
If you can get SATA cables with 90degree angled plugs to fit into the drives ,it will make fitting easier.

Generally,installation isnt difficult,you just have to have nimble,doublejointed fingers.

Above this bottom cage is another drive cage,which can be used instead of the bottom one for fitting of HDDs(mine are in the bottom).
This cage allows the fitting of a 12" fan to mount on the inside of the computer on the cage,which is good additional cooling and points near to the Video card.I have this fan fitted.
The 182 has audio jacks at the door cutout and has adjustable fan controls,I think at the back.
For business use certainly the 182 looks more professional-you would get my business immediately:thumb:

EDIT: dont know why the manufacturers persist in fitting left hand hinged doors-as most people are right handed,they would tend to park the computer also on the right,which logically needs a RH hinged door!!

bestest hairy

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> The hinged door,which is the same on the 180 and 182, relies on plastic posts,which broke on mine-but its easy just to Bostik glue the posts-as good as new.
Actually I received a replacement door unit without any problems from Antec under warranty, the first time
The door can be closed when running, to keep out wild deer,black bears etc:) <-QUOTE}
Thanks for your reply and clarification Hairy Coo. I also edited my first post with a little more info on the P182 for everyone's enjoyment. It's also good to hear that it will keep out the critters ;D. I admit, you made me laugh.

{QUOTE-> With the bottom mounted PSU-there is a drive cage in front of it with a 12" fan to cool the drives and the PSU-quite adequate.
My drive temps are 42 and 43c.
If you can get SATA cables with 90degree angled plugs to fit into the drives ,it will make fitting easier. <-QUOTE}
I'm taking note of the 90 degree SATA cables because all my future drives will be SATA. That's not counting my ext.

{QUOTE-> Generally,installation isnt difficult,you just have to have nimble,doublejointed fingers. <-QUOTE}
Ahhh crap, I have neither. My fingers are small though and I could sprinkle in a little patience. Scratch that, I don't have patience either :dry:.

{QUOTE-> Above this bottom cage is another drive cage,which can be used instead of the bottom one for fitting of HDDs(mine are in the bottom).
This cage allows the fitting of a 12" fan to mount on the inside of the computer on the cage,which is good additional cooling and points near to the Video card.I have this fan fitted. <-QUOTE}
More great info! I bet it would keep the GPU chilly.

{QUOTE-> The 182 has audio jacks at the door cutout and has adjustable fan controls,I think at the back.
For business use certainly the 182 looks more professional-you would get my business immediately:thumb:

EDIT: dont know why the manufacturers persist in fitting left hand hinged doors-as most people are right handed,they would tend to park the computer also on the right,which logically needs a RH hinged door!! <-QUOTE}
The headphone jack is important to me. I also like the adjustable fan speeds and I am hoping that low would work, but that's not a big deal as my heat/air and refrigerator are loud in this little apartment. I agree about the hinge side, don't most desks have the computer sitting on the right side? weird...

Regards,
innerpeace

[markymoo]

The Antec 182 i'm sure will be more than you need. The 900 is a newer design and better cooling but alot owners say you have to get cables so neatly managed to maintain better cooling. The Antec wins on style and looks and its already a winner for cooling and silence. Another good case to consider for less money is the Coolermaster 690. http://www.coolermaster.com/products/product.php?language=en&act=detail&tbcate=17&id=2908 can fit 7 120mm fans. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119137 only $80 :)

Did someone say fan?
http://www.aplus-case.de/pages/products/TwinEngine/TwinEngine.html

[lucas1985]

Lian Li (http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product03.php?cl_index=1&sc_index=25) is another option in quality cases/chassis. Not as quiet as the P182, but light (pure aluminium) and beautiful (industrial design)

[markymoo]

Lian Li and Silverstone cases are great quality but also very expensive if you want a good one with the features of the Antec. They generally cost alot more than Antec cases, which would be outside the budget.

http://www.silverstonetek.com/products/enclosure.php?area=usa

[innerpeace]

Dieselman Thanks, sorry I missed your post earlier. Does the 900 suck in a lot of dust?

markymoo I must have missed the Coolermaster 690 when I was searching. It looks decent, and can hold a boat load of fans, but for $20 more bucks, it's hard not to get the P182. For fun, I had a look at the SilverStones, they are way too expensive.

Lucas I was seriously considering the Lian Li's. Some people have reported noise like you said, vibrations and cheap fans. I was only looking at models I could afford though. I do like the looks of them.

[innerpeace]

Sorry for the double post, but I thought I would let everyone know that the P182 had free shipping today so I just ordered it ;D. It will be $100 after rebates and should be here in the middle of the week. Let's hope there are no dents.

I can't wait until cpu prices start falling and hopefully I can find a good deal on a good MB. What is the difference in a dual cpu and dual core? I'm also considering a virtual machine in the future so I will need a cpu and I guess an OS to accomplish this. Is XP pro 64 bit? Would I even need 64 bit in the near future 2-4 years?

[Dieselman]

I don't worry about sucking in dust. I have 2 cats. Cant do anything about that but I have fan filters on my intake fans.

[markymoo]

Well done on your purchase. Here in Uk it would cost $170 which is still not a bad price when you see other cases around costing far more.

Dual core now is 2 processors in one chip fitted into a 1 socket motherboard and dual cpu is 2 seperate cpus which can be dual or quad cores fitted into a motherboard that will take 2 seperate processors commonly known as Skulltrial, which is an advancement of server xeon technology of old which is able to run it faster still. It comes at a huge price as you could fit 2 quad cores on one motherboard meaning 8 cores. The memory for it is expensive.

For your purposes into the future a dual core will suffice as little applications take advantage of 4 cores. The best advice is save as much money as you can until April wait for those prices to drop and then buy an Intel 8000 series cpu (8200 8300 8400 8500) the best you can afford and by then the x48 motherboards will be out and the P35 x38 intel chipset motherboards will of come down in price. You be able to pick up a high spec P35 motherboard at a bargain price that will work with your cpu. There will be little benefit buying the latest motherboard unless you want SLI/Crossfire or 10% more speed. In fact this is what i will be doing waiting for a top board like the Abit IP35 Pro http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3142 or Foxconn Mars http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3107 to come down and picking up a cheap Intel 6600 quad core or getting the new Intel Q9450 in March which is like 10 days away. I need quad but a 8000 series cpu will just be as good and fast for the majority of software. I think Nehalem early next year will cost a fortune.

In 1980 we had 8bit and Amd were first to bring out 64bit in 2003 now Intel do it. If you buy a cpu today it be 64bit. It means there 64 registers in the chip basically means the data gets handled in bigger chunks for processing meaning faster. Yes you want a x64 chip. XP comes in x32 or x64 versions. XP didn't get so popular due to lack of drivers before Vista and thought to be a dead duck but now due to the disappointment of Vista and availability of drivers its getting a revivial. If you use x64 XP it be faster but not all software takes advantage of it. Alot software you can get working. Games run ok on x64. You see 32bit referred to as x86.

[Hairy Coo]

Well done,Innerpeace:)
Wouldnt worry about denting-the cardboard case is built like a shipping container.

If you can be patient for a month or so,you could probably buy a cheaper CPU,as markymoo pointed out,which would be ideal.
But if you want to buy all the hardware now,Newegg have,for example, the dual core E6550 for $170 and the GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L mobo for $89-a good combination.
The E6550 is rated at approx 2.4ghz but will overclock to around 3.4GHz with a good chip cooler.
It seems that Newegg have deals all the time,so a package like this would suit you.
I prefer Gigabyte or Asus mobos.
As regards the virtual machine,an excellent freebie is VirtualBox,which runs perfectly on XP2 32bit

[innerpeace]

Thanks everyone :).

markymoo, Thanks for the explanation. It clears up some of the mystery about the different chips. I've been looking at the benchmark link you posted and now it's making more sense to me. I'll try and keep an eye on the models you mentioned and learn more about them.

Hairy Coo, Your the reason I bought the P182. You had me hooked the moment you mentioned it :P.

That is a nice combo and I think that's one of the chips I have been looking at. I am going to wait and see what I can get for the least money. I think one of the quads is $254 and if it drops to $200, I might seriously consider getting it. That MB is rated very high at NewEgg.

The price for XP Pro 64 and 32bit are the same. Is it ok getting the OEM license or would that be a bad decision. I'm not sure that I would by my software from them and will shop around for an OS license. When will they quit selling XP? Would it be cheaper to see if a local computer repair shop sells XP OEM licenses? Heck, I made my own XP Home disks from my OEM install, but I would need a license so Bill can eat.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,
Dont think the quad core make any sense at all for you-they are only advantageous in specialized applications such as some graphics, which can utilize all 4 cores-you would be better off getting a good dual core chip.
The OEM licence is fine,doesnt have the fancy retail wrapping and only good for an install on one machine,but otherwise exactly the same. Cant you get it from Newegg-generally needs a purchase of hardware to qualify!
Probably XP 32 would be better as regards general compatibility.
XP will be maintained by Microsoft for a long time yet,and service pack 3 is about to be announced,so it certainly isnt obsolete.
You also will need memory,the one markymoo recommended should serve well.
That 182 price was a bargain!!:thumb:

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> That 182 price was a bargain!!:thumb: <-QUOTE}
;D Thanks. When I was a child, we played a board game called Bargain Hunter. I must have been paying attention ;) .

Your probably right about the quad cores. I really wonder how many apps will be using 2 or 4 cores and/or 64 bit technology in 2-3 years. This build will probably be at least a 3 year investment for me.

Yes, NewEgg has OS's, but I thought I may be able to get it cheaper elsewhere. It's $140 for either a 32 or 64 bit XP Pro OEM. They also have XP home OEM for $90. Here is what the disclaimer says for OEM XP home.
{QUOTE-> Disclaimer: Qualifying proof of purchase must be recent receipts showing the purchase of a mother board, hard drive, RAM and a CPU. The components can be on multiple receipts; not necessarily all on one receipt nor on the same receipt as the qualifying Windows XP/Office 2003 that you purchased. <-QUOTE}
My recent hard drive purchase may be a problem. I'll need to look into this. The OS will be the last thing I buy.

[lucas1985]

innerpeace,
You're building a solid foundation for your new rig :thumb:
If I have time, I'll put a thread called "Towards smart, painless and happy computing"

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace
For a start get XP Pro-usually if you twist arms hard enough with a smaller supplier,any reasonable hardware purchase may qualify.
In my opinion,unless you are a games fanatic(some games are being written just for quad core) or a professional needing a quad core for an as yet unwritten program,you will not get any value out of it-Dont aim too high for no reason!!

Whats wrong with your hard drive-just get 2-SATA drives,the biggest which give value,this will ensure best performance as the data that counts will be near the edge for reading/writing.
EDIT If you are talking about your external eSATA seagate-there wont be any problems irrespecitve of the mobo you buy,obviously as long as it supports sata-which they probably all do, now.
If possible get another two internals.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> innerpeace,
You're building a solid foundation for your new rig :thumb:
If I have time, I'll put a thread called "Towards smart, painless and happy computing" <-QUOTE}
Thank Lucas. If you write a thread, I would certainly read it :thumb:.

{QUOTE-> For a start get XP Pro-usually if you twist arms hard enough with a smaller supplier,any reasonable hardware purchase may qualify.
In my opinion,unless you are a games fanatic(some games are being written just for quad core) or a professional needing a quad core for an as yet unwritten program,you will not get any value out of it-Dont aim too high for no reason!! <-QUOTE}
Ok, it would be fun to run 3 VM's though. Like I would ever do that LOL.

{QUOTE-> Whats wrong with your hard drive-just get 2-SATA drives,the biggest which give value,this will ensure best performance as the data that counts will be near the edge for reading/writing.
EDIT If you are talking about your external eSATA seagate-there wont be any problems irrespecitve of the mobo you buy,obviously as long as it supports sata-which they probably all do, now.
If possible get another two internals. <-QUOTE}
Yes, I was talking about the new 250GB ext. SATA drive I bought. I thought that it might have been to long ago to qualify. I think I got it in Dec. My internal HDD is an IDE 100GB. I was thinking about getting another 160GB or less SATA drive for the new build because they were around $42 because my IDE has been occasionally clicking and chirping for several months now. I can't get Seatools (graphical) to recognize my mouse's and the keyboard won't work either. I also have the DOS version, but I'm not familiar with what to do in the DOS version.

For the record, my new burner is IDE so it would probably occupy the single IDE input on the new MB. I could temporary use my new 250GB ext. SATA HDD for a while, but my backups would have to be on it or I could temp. use the questionable IDE drive in my ext. enclosure for backups. I hope that makes sense. I'm also getting ahead of myself here as my main focus is on the next month or so.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,
Quad cores dont work like that,you cant run 4 apps in parallel and tell them-you use core 1-you use 2-etc.
What you could do is install 4 different functions in your VM.

As regards the disk-that Click of Death is a worry and usually terminal-could be the head scratching the platter and data in a certain position.
But if the disk fails,the SeaWizard backup image probably wont work on a new disk-so backup your data separately.


You will have to clone from the old disk to the new-but I'm not sure what happens when you clone from IDe to SATA,should be OK
Does SeaWizard have a clone function and can it clone from IDE to SATA-check the Help file.

In any case, buy another SATA drive-250gb or bigger the better and faster-and better value usually, AND SOON!
You really dont have a choice.

You may be better off-if you now make the external the new active c systems disk.
You would have to create a Secure Zone on the IDE disk,backup a current image there-then use that image to restore to the external-then fit that internally and throw the IDE as far away as possible!

Also play around with Disk Management of course-loads of fun!!

[markymoo]

{QUOTE->

Thanks for the explanation. It clears up some of the mystery about the different chips. I've been looking at the benchmark link you posted and now it's making more sense to me. I'll try and keep an eye on the models you mentioned and learn more about them.
<-QUOTE}
That benchmark is abit out of date as it doesn't feature the newer ones. Heres more upto date. So you be really more at 50 hehe
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=946&model2=882&chart=435
{QUOTE->
Hairy Coo, Your the reason I bought the P182. You had me hooked the moment you mentioned it :P. <-QUOTE}
You can't beat the experience of owning one.

{QUOTE->
The price for XP Pro 64 and 32bit are the same. Is it ok getting the OEM license or would that be a bad decision. I'm not sure that I would by my software from them and will shop around for an OS license. When will they quit selling XP? Would it be cheaper to see if a local computer repair shop sells XP OEM licenses? Heck, I made my own XP Home disks from my OEM install, but I would need a license so Bill can eat. <-QUOTE}

I didn't know exactly what your using your pc for but it looks like you putting a decent system together for the future so i now say don't buy XP x64. I am presuming it mainly for gaming as you bought a better graphics card before. If you don't want to buy another operating sytem for awhile i say buy VISTA x64 instead as it will be more future proofed as it has directx10 to play games if you upgrade your graphics card yet again in the future for games such as Crysis. Games run slower in Vista but if you got a decent graphics card it be fine. If you already own XP 32bit then buy Vista X64. Now that SP1 is coming for Vista it should be better. There will be more compatibility with Vista x64 in the future. If Vista too much to buy then buy OEM 32bit XP as it will have 100% compatibility with everything and run faster and will be around for ages yet. The difference in speed between x86 and x64 is small in XP and games dont take advantage of x64 so much. So ideally buy a Intel Conroe Cpu to run x64 Vista for the future. Buying x64 will fully utilize all of the 4Gb.

{QUOTE->

If you can be patient for a month or so,you could probably buy a cheaper CPU,as markymoo pointed out,which would be ideal.
But if you want to buy all the hardware now,Newegg have,for example, the dual core E6550 for $170 and the GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3L mobo for $89-a good combination. The E6550 is rated at approx 2.4ghz but will overclock to around 3.4GHz with a good chip cooler. It seems that Newegg have deals all the time,so a package like this would suit you. I prefer Gigabyte or Asus mobos. <-QUOTE}

I say don't buy anything now or you regret. You buy the new affordable best which is the Intel 8000 series cpus just out. This will sustain you with better performance over the next 2 years+ that you keep it. The E6500 has been out since last year and is already outdated so not a wise choice to get. If you buy a 8000 you be able to overclock way over 4.0ghz and if you don't overclock then you have cheaper electric bills as it uses less power so you make up the saving that way. Just save your money for the best cpu and then getting the rest will fall easily into place.

It could be soon in the future as quad cores drop in price and become standard on the average desktop then developers will design for quad core and we see more quad software. The 2nd generation of quads that will come out soon will run faster and use less power. If i had to pick between a 8000 series or a quad i invest in a quad as it will be utilized in future more and still run fast enough without using all 4 cores at once, for general gaming go for dual core.

Another reason not to buy the latest motherboard is because it utilizes DDR3 memory and that is still expensive and not coming down much yet. As DDR2 memory is alot cheaper and not much slower you might as well buy the P35 motherboard. If you get Vista you be able to pick up very affordable 4Gb of DDR2.

Here's another good P35 board that has alot features with good price now that go lower to keep an eye on.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131225

or some of the Gigabytes P35 DS3 DS4 models like this one.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128086

alternatively if you want to save some money. get a decent budget motherboard this one in particular.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157120

{QUOTE-> I'm also getting ahead of myself here as my main focus is on the next month or so. <-QUOTE}

lol

You be able to use that external fine with your new parts and getting a internal SATA such as a Western Digital or Seagate 300gb won't be much as the last part to get.

If you get a CD-ROM buy one with a SATA connector as opposed to IDE as ide is being phased out and SATA makes for tidier cabling. Motherboard provide just one ide connector now but whats worse is uses jmicron controller which is really buggy. So avoid IDE.

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

Waiting would be the way to go,as you say, if Innerpeace can wait-except for the new SATA HDD!!

[markymoo]

@Hairy Coo
yes, it all down to his budget. the idea i trying to put forward is better to buy more expensive cpu even if it take 3 months to save up to buy that one part. it be better in the long run as the pc will have better speed to run the software of the future. even if it takes him 5-6 months to acquire all the parts. better that than going out any buying all the parts in one go and getting a lesser machine. he be more satisfied in the end having a better pc and be able to run the software in a years time and beyond. once he got a decent system all he need to do is upgrade the graphics card again in the future. yes theres bargains now but they be more bargains in a few month.

[Rico]

See: Fastest to Slowest (http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/index.cfm?a=wiki&tag=rmp_vds)

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> I can't get Seatools (graphical) to recognize my mouse's and the keyboard won't work either. <-QUOTE}
Are your keyboard/mice USB? If so, enable legacy USB support or USB support for DOS in the BIOS.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Are your keyboard/mice USB? If so, enable legacy USB support or USB support for DOS in the BIOS. <-QUOTE}
The keyboard is PS/2 and the mice I have tried are USB with the PS/2 adapters. I looked in the BIOS and I think those settings are enabled/default. I can't remember if I tried just using a USB mouse as my main mouse started getting flaky on me so I switched it to PS/2. I may have even tried my original ball PS/2 mouse. I'll do a little more experimenting.

Edit: I searched their KB and I'm not the only one with the problem. They also have no solution.

They also have Seatools for Windows and it requires .NET 2.0 which I don't have. Would it be worth making a special image with .NET just to run the diagnostics?

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE->

They also have Seatools for Windows and it requires .NET 2.0 which I don't have. Would it be worth making a special image with .NET just to run the diagnostics? <-QUOTE}
In your case-absolutely as there seems a chance that your main drive is faulty,from what you previously described
You can always uninstall a previous version of Net .

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> In your case-absolutely as there seems a chance that your main drive is faulty,from what you previously described
You can always uninstall a previous version of Net . <-QUOTE}
Ok, no problem. The drive has been making the occasional screech since before I reinstalled XP (end of Dec.) and then I made many images along the way. I hammered on it pretty good back then. I honestly don't mind reinstalling XP now that I know how, but I am curious about the HDD's state. There is also no mission critical info here and most of my data is already backed up.

I'm off to run the tests. I also haven't forgotten about the last several posts :).

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace-is the IDE disk to be tested a Seagate?
Otherwise no point running SeaTools.:)

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Innerpeace-is the IDE disk to be tested a Seagate?
Otherwise no point running SeaTools.:) <-QUOTE}
Yep, both drives are Seagates. I only ran the 'SMART', 'Short Drive Self Test' and 'Short Generic Test's and they all passed. I may run the Long DST later if you think I should, but not tonight.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> That benchmark is abit out of date as it doesn't feature the newer ones. Heres more upto date. So you be really more at 50 hehe
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=946&model2=882&chart=435 <-QUOTE}
Thanks, I'll have a look see. LOL, I did check back at the other site and it had me a 50. It's also updated daily, but I don't know how reliable it is.

{QUOTE-> I didn't know exactly what your using your pc for but it looks like you putting a decent system together for the future so i now say don't buy XP x64. I am presuming it mainly for gaming as you bought a better graphics card before. If you don't want to buy another operating sytem for awhile i say buy VISTA x64 instead as it will be more future proofed as it has directx10 to play games if you upgrade your graphics card yet again in the future for games such as Crysis. Games run slower in Vista but if you got a decent graphics card it be fine. If you already own XP 32bit then buy Vista X64. Now that SP1 is coming for Vista it should be better. There will be more compatibility with Vista x64 in the future. If Vista too much to buy then buy OEM 32bit XP as it will have 100% compatibility with everything and run faster and will be around for ages yet. The difference in speed between x86 and x64 is small in XP and games dont take advantage of x64 so much. So ideally buy a Intel Conroe Cpu to run x64 Vista for the future. Buying x64 will fully utilize all of the 4Gb. <-QUOTE}
I would like to stick with XP and skip over Vista completely. I can always update the OS and gfx card later. For now, the machine will be used for internet and gaming. Not the latest games though. I would also like to try online gaming. I want to future proof the hardware the best I can. It seems that software is lagging far behind the hardware advancements so whatever I buy should be fine.

{QUOTE-> I say don't buy anything now or you regret. You buy the new affordable best which is the Intel 8000 series cpus just out. This will sustain you with better performance over the next 2 years+ that you keep it. The E6500 has been out since last year and is already outdated so not a wise choice to get. If you buy a 8000 you be able to overclock way over 4.0ghz and if you don't overclock then you have cheaper electric bills as it uses less power so you make up the saving that way. Just save your money for the best cpu and then getting the rest will fall easily into place. <-QUOTE}
The budget systems posted by everyone are great and would probably serve me well. I'm going to try to trade a little patience and time for better deals. I only see the 8400 at NewEgg. Is the 8000 series too new or in high demand?

{QUOTE-> It could be soon in the future as quad cores drop in price and become standard on the average desktop then developers will design for quad core and we see more quad software. The 2nd generation of quads that will come out soon will run faster and use less power. If i had to pick between a 8000 series or a quad i invest in a quad as it will be utilized in future more and still run fast enough without using all 4 cores at once, for general gaming go for dual core. <-QUOTE}
Which do you think would prove more reliable, quad or dual core tech? I'm leaning towards dual core because that is what you all are telling me.

{QUOTE-> Another reason not to buy the latest motherboard is because it utilizes DDR3 memory and that is still expensive and not coming down much yet. As DDR2 memory is alot cheaper and not much slower you might as well buy the P35 motherboard. If you get Vista you be able to pick up very affordable 4Gb of DDR2. <-QUOTE}
DDR2 is very cheap! It's cheaper that DDR at the moment. My gfx card has 256MB DDR3 and is OC'd, would the system I am building be more than enough to handle it? In other words, would my gfx card end up being the bottle neck? I'm guessing yes lol.

Thanks for links, I will try and keep an eye on the MB's you linked to. I will also only get SATA from now on. I may have to use the IDE burner I just bought. Hopefully it will work fine as it seems like a reliable burner.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> Yep, both drives are Seagates. I only ran the 'SMART', 'Short Drive Self Test' and 'Short Generic Test's and they all passed. I may run the Long DST later if you think I should, but not tonight. <-QUOTE}

Sounds encouraging-hopefully all may be well -but back up to date!

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> See: Fastest to Slowest (http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/index.cfm?a=wiki&tag=rmp_vds) <-QUOTE}
Thanks for the link Rico :thumb:.

{QUOTE-> Sounds encouraging-hopefully all may be well -but back up to date! <-QUOTE}
Ok, I will be sure to make new backups. I will be very busy the next few days. I have to move some shelves on this cheap desk (the P182 is much taller than my old machine). I'm going to also go ahead an move my old hardware into the P182 case when it arrives, that way I'm not rushed into a hardware purchase and I'll have a chilly and beautiful machine ;D. There is no way I can sit and stare at that new, shiny case without using it :P. When I finally get the new hardware, I should only have to re-install the MB, CPU, RAM and a HDD.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> I will be very busy the next few days. I have to move some shelves on this cheap desk (the P182 is much taller than my old machine). I'm going to also go ahead an move my old hardware into the P182 case when it arrives, that way I'm not rushed into a hardware purchase and I'll have a chilly and beautiful machine ;D. <-QUOTE}
:thumb: :thumb: ;D

[markymoo]

innerpeace (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/member.php?u=62216)

If a Ps2 mouse won't work in dos it be less likely a USB one will as they sometimes need dos drivers if the dos software not got it built in. If the drive is clicking then it's had it's day. Backup any important data to the external drive and buy a new SATA one as Hairy Coo suggested.

Get this software HDTune. Download the free version http://www.hdtune.com/
Select Error Scan and press Start. If the drive ok for now you have all green squares. If theres any red you have bad and damaged. Not much point testing it with Seagate tools as that clicking means its on its way out. Chkdsk can mark the bad so data doesnt get written there.

Hairy Coo
Yes buy a new SATA but is that for his future system or for his present system? The m/b on that e-m might not take SATA. If so best to buy a small ide as well.

[innerpeace]

markymoo, it's a 'Seatools for dos' mouse problem. The software is just flawed and/or it doesn't like my hardware. Others have reported the same thing. I even tried partition magic's boot cd and the mouse works fine with it. The screech noise is not common like a clicking noise. Like I said, it's been doing this since before December. It hasn't made a peep today. I'm sorta used to it LOL. I will have a look at the program you mentioned and see what it says, Thanks :).

My existing e/m MB has 4 SATA 1.5 inputs. One of them is connected to my ext. HDD (via a sudo eSATA bracket) which is SATA 3.0. In other words, I have a new Seagate drive installed in a separate purchased enclosure that is connected to a flimsy bracket that is connected to an onboard MB SATA 1.5 port.

If I have to, I will use this drive in my new hardware config. I would prefer to get a slightly smaller and cheaper drive as my working internal drive. Either way, I will have to get another SATA HDD eventually.

[markymoo]

no because no mouse driver is loaded. PM loads mouse.com before it loads. if you put mouse.com and type it at the dos prompt or in autoexec.bat before Seatools it will work. http://www.bootdisk.com/plan30/mouse.com the Seatools for dos works for ide. the enterprise version works for scsi. if thats alot messing about just use that program to see if it ok.

in that case get a 8190 or 8200 the lower ones or go for 8400 and put one in a budget motherboard. dual core fine. they selling out fast as there big demand. get XP 32bit. 2Gb DDR2 will suffice for XP. the graphic card will be fine http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/12/03/best_graphics_card/page6.html http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/169937-15-short-list-gaming-videocards-money

[innerpeace]

Before I fall asleep LOL, I installed and ran HDTune's free version, full and quick error scans and everything came up green :thumb:. I rewired/re-routed my computer a little over a week ago and a loose or bad wire/cable could have been the culprit behind the weird noise. If it comes back, I will start to worry, until then, the build continues full bore ;).

For the record, I have both Seatools for Dos (graphical) and Seatools for Dos both burned on 2 cd's. The graphical is the one the mouse or keyboard doesn't work on. I have no idea how to use the Dos (non graphical) version. The one I ran earlier was Seatools for Windows.

I'm off to bed until tomorrow. I'll check back then. Cheers

[innerpeace]

Ok, all rested up :). I re-arranged my desk today and made backups and images (thanks Hairy Coo). The case will be here tomorrow (Wed.). I think my MB is a micro ATX (9.6" X 9.6") and the P182 says "Motherboard: Up to Standard ATX (12” x 9.6”)". Before I start the swap, will my old MB work in the new case? Also, can I use a magnetized screwdriver in and around the components?

{QUOTE-> in that case get a 8190 or 8200 the lower ones or go for 8400 and put one in a budget motherboard. dual core fine. they selling out fast as there big demand. get XP 32bit. 2Gb DDR2 will suffice for XP. the graphic card will be fine http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/12/03/best_graphics_card/page6.html http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/169937-15-short-list-gaming-videocards-money <-QUOTE}
Thanks markymoo! Your right, they must be in big demand. I only see the 8400, but hopefully stock will increase when the prices drop.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> Ok, all rested up :). I think my MB is a micro ATX (9.6" X 9.6") and the P182 says "Motherboard: Up to Standard ATX (12” x 9.6”)". Before I start the swap, will my old MB work in the new case? Also, can I use a magnetized screwdriver in and around the components?
<-QUOTE}

On the RH side of the case you will see a lot of pre drilled holes-they are to accomodate the different size mobos--no probs!

I have always used a magnetic screwdriver -they are indispensible for all those times when the screws fall into some tiny unreachable crevice-just dont rub sensitive areas-the CPU etc.
As regards grounding yourself.I have only ever done that by gripping a faucet-tap-then got to work.

Innerpeace-think you should d/l the working trial version of ShadowProtect and create an image.
With SP you wont have any problems transferring the image -just in case something goes wrong.Sea Wizard cant or isnt as reliable at transferring images to new disks/computers,depending on the circumstances.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> On the RH side of the case you will see a lot of pre drilled holes-they are to accomodate the different size mobos--no probs! <-QUOTE}
Thanks! I can picture myself throwing parts against the wall if the holes didn't align LOL.

{QUOTE-> I have always used a magnetic screwdriver -they are indispensible for all those times when the screws fall into some tiny unreachable crevice-just dont rub sensitive areas-the CPU etc.
As regards grounding yourself.I have only ever done that by gripping a faucet-tap-then got to work. <-QUOTE}
Good to know, I'll avoid the cpu. I also wash my hands before entering the case and ground myself often to the case sides.

{QUOTE-> Innerpeace-think you should d/l the working trial version of ShadowProtect and create an image.
With SP you wont have any problems transferring the image -just in case something goes wrong.Sea Wizard cant or isnt as reliable at transferring images to new disks/computers,depending on the circumstances. <-QUOTE}
That's a very good and smart idea and most people wouldn't have thought of it. I did backup my D: data drive manually (copy and paste) today and that's probably the most important stuff I have. I honestly don't mind reinstalling windows because there are a couple things I would have done differently and would like to change. I also don't have many programs installed either. I'll think about it though because it is a very good idea.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace
Good idea-just b/u your data and do a new install on a new SATA or on the external/internal SATA-bit risky on the clunky old IDE.
The case isnt grounded unless everything is plugged ie power cables.

[markymoo]

Here's some guide with pictures fitting a motherboard. The general rules apply.

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/145/2
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1970648,00.asp

Just only put brass mounted standoffs where the holes are for the motherboard. Do not put standoffs in every hole in base of the case. No metal must be touching the motherboard. It maybe those are mounted already in the Antec case.

The 8400 came out in Febuary but only a few. Stock has dried up. In Uk can only get a 8200 at this time The other models have to wait until tomorrow. Alot have pre-ordered be trouble getting for awhile. There is still surplus stocks of quad core 6600 around so expect a good price on those.

Here's another review that compares the differences between the Antec P180 and the P182.
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=8863&page=1

Decent closeup pics of P180 similar from page 1 onwards
http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews/Antec%20p180%20review/index.htm

That door is doublehinged but just be careful you dont snap it off. Only issue i got is airflow is reduced when the door is closed but be fine for your hardware. Theres multiple fans.

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo

Nice aids for building!

The p180 had the standoffs mounted only for the standard mobo.

Think the Hexus reviewer must have had all the fans set at low,which really isnt that effective-at medium the thermal qualities would have been improved quite a bit-at high its like a freezer-didnt agree with him about the cooling.
I also have a 12" fan on the top drive cage,which assists-giving a total of 4-12" fans.

[lucas1985]

How to build a system (http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/13671/2) :)

[innerpeace]

Phew!!! Hi everyone. I just spent the last 6 hours transferring my hardware from my old computer to my new P182. I wish I had a video tape of the whole ordeal so you all could watch the bloopers lol. For a case that cost's $170, you think they might include a couple pics in their manual :dry:. It was a great learning experience though and the only thing I couldn't figure out is hooking up the Power LED. My old case had a two wire /two connector plug. The P182 has a 2 wire/3 connector plug. I didn't want to screw something up so I left unplugged. Any ideas? Also, what does the reset do or why is it different than the power button? My old machine didn't have one, but the MB had the "rst" so I hooked it up.

With all three fans on low, I do here some noise coming from the top fan. My temps are now CPU 30C, GPU 50C and HDD 29C. So my temps dropped 6 degrees :thumb:. I'll try gaming later and experiment with the fan speeds. When I start ordering parts, I may also add a 4th fan like Hairy Coo has done to cool the GPU. (great idea!)

The case has built in standoffs, but I still used 2 included brass one's to match my old case. Also, is it ok to plug the 4 pin fan connector into another fan connection and then to the PSU 4 pin for power? In other words I have 2 fans hooked to one PSU 4 pin.

Thanks for the links, I'll have a look when I'm thinking a little more clearer. The door is double hinged, but I'm not pushing my luck opening it all the way. The one thing I don't like about this case is it has more plastic than I care for.

Edit: I just found where the noise is coming from. If I hold my hand on top the case in the middle and push down. The noise stops. It's a humming sound from the vibration of the fan.

[Hairy Coo]

Congratulations,Innerpeace,well done!

Know the feeling-any difficult questions are never answered in manuals!
Those wretched front bezel connectors are a real misery-Asus has seen the light and provides a simple plug for its mobos to take the lot!.

The Power LED just tells you the computer is On,so isnt essential,but in my experience experimentation with these plugs wont hurt,till everything is hooked up,if you have enough M/F plugs etc
On my machine,the Power LED lights up just above the Power button-the Hard Drive LED above the Reset Button-this one flickers depending upon activity.

The Reset button of course will restart the computer outside Windows,for example when the system freezes.
Just press it to reboot-its pretty essential.

The cooling sounds good-if you get that fourth fan and point it at the card,its temp will also drop.

The top fan shouldnt be making any noise except the usual,is the fan catching anything?
On my machine there is just a generalized whirr which cant be traced to any one point-double check the fan and the mounting-it may be faulty under warranty.
Regarding the fan connectors,you are supposed to connect most of them into each other with the cable plugs,the number doesnt matter

I found Antec excellent to deal with,even here in Aus.
Just be careful not to accidentally stress the door hinges,which I did,the same for the fan filter holders.
Antec will also replace both of these if necessary under warranty,but simpler to just reglue the hinges with Bostik,which I did about 9 months ago and still working perfectly.

Otherwise a great case,(apart from the door and fan filter plastics)

Did you route all the cables behind the side plate.?

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Know the feeling-any difficult questions are never answered in manuals!
Those wretched front bezel connectors are a real misery-Asus has seen the light and provides a simple plug for its mobos to take the lot!. <-QUOTE}
Yep, I was scratching my head more than once thinking about using my sisters computer and asking what to do. I finally saw a little guide on the MB that indicated some of the bezel connectors. I needed a magnifying glass to read it lol.

{QUOTE-> The Power LED just tells you the computer is On,so isnt essential,but in my experience experimentation with these plugs wont hurt,till everything is hooked up,if you have enough M/F plugs etc
On my machine,the Power LED lights up just above the Power button-the Hard Drive LED above the Reset Button-this one flickers depending upon activity. <-QUOTE}
I went to the MSI site and downloaded the manual for my MB. Like you said, it isn't important, but if I feel energetic, I'll see what it says. Or I may just experiment. The HDD light works fine. There were 2 HDD connectors with the case.

{QUOTE-> The Reset button of course will restart the computer outside Windows,for example when the system freezes. Just press it to reboot-its pretty essential. <-QUOTE}
Thanks, I guess that would eliminate the need to do a power shutdown. Nice feature.

{QUOTE-> The cooling sounds good-if you get that fourth fan and point it at the card,its temp will also drop. <-QUOTE}
I like the cooling so far and I do want the other fan.

See my edit in my last post about the top fan. It's not the fan, it's the case and it's a humming sound. I put a pack of cd's on top and the noise stops. I'll have a look inside tomorrow to see if I can find if something isn't right. It's also good to hear the number of fan connectors doesn't matter. I'll also watch the plastic hinges and use caution. It's nice that Antec has good service too :).

{QUOTE-> Did you route all the cables behind the side plate.? <-QUOTE}
I did route some of them that way. If and when I get a new PSU, I will make sure everything is long enough. Some things were a stretch to reach. I also can't wait until I get my SATA accessories. One of my new round IDE cables isn't quite long enough. It works, but it's ugly.

On the lower chamber divider, in front of the two sliding plastic panels is a U-shaped hole. What is it for? Is it for the MB power, but you have to remove the two sliding plastic panels to insert it in the U-shape?

[Hairy Coo]

That cut out is to route all the cabling from the bottom compartment to the top and the idea is to close it as far as possible,so as to isolate the heat from spreading to above.
Unplug the MB power cable then feed it through.

That top fan doesnt sound right,as if something is loose or out of balance-check it with a torch inside the case.

The Reset just does a dirty reboot outside of Windows like the normal restart function.
It can cause slight problems with some software because they havent shutdown properly ,for example it interrupts the ShadowProtect full/incremental schedule-so dont use it unless necessary.I only use it to get out of freezes.

Anyway you are on the road to a top system;D

[innerpeace]

Thank you Hairy Coo. I took a quick peek and there may be a wire pinched between the top fan and the case. I will have to wait until tomorrow to fix it. There is definitely a vibration near that fan.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> markymoo

Nice aids for building!

The p180 had the standoffs mounted only for the standard mobo.

Think the Hexus reviewer must have had all the fans set at low,which really isnt that effective-at medium the thermal qualities would have been improved quite a bit-at high its like a freezer-didnt agree with him about the cooling.
I also have a 12" fan on the top drive cage,which assists-giving a total of 4-12" fans. <-QUOTE}

Theres quite alot of guides including video out there for that. Yes, thats why you don't rely on one review. The silentpc review is better. It so cold in innerpeace country i thought the ambient air would cool it more but it must be quite warm in his house and trapped air. What about the Antec vga air duct is that effective? to use for the gfx card for now? and yes more fans is not always better.

@innerpeace

Sorted you got the board in and working :) the rest is cosmetics.

I don't know the make on those Antec Fans. If i buy a cheap case i replace the noisy fans for better. The Antec is a decent design and the fans should be quality and quiet already under 20db. If a fan is vibrating you can fit rubber grommets(supplied with the fan) that the screws go into or you can fit a shroud or gasket round the edge that can create a cushion against the case. On some fans now they don't use screws but long rubber rivets that you stick through the holes and stretch the rubber tight and locks into place. Does the Antec come with anything like that?

{QUOTE->

is it ok to plug the 4 pin fan connector into another fan connection and then to the PSU 4 pin for power? In other words I have 2 fans hooked to one PSU 4 pin. <-QUOTE}

yes 12V fans use little power approx 3Watts.

are those fans noisy on the higher settings?

some older motherboards don't have extra connections to fit extra usb, firewire, sound etc from the front bezel. so just leave them off. first two are reset then always miss a pin and then its two pin power. no polarity for the rest but the the hd led has a little + and - so it matters which way round. an easy way to remember is red wire always points forward to the front of the case. speaker goes opposite reset.

if you still got problems post the model of your motherboard and we sort it.

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

That VGA duct was discontinued about 9 months ago.

The Antec fans provided actually are good,quiet and move a lot of air.
The airflow and db figures are among the better ones.

Seems the fan noise problem may be an out of balance one which may be cured by a bit of readjusting.

My temp figures for the mobo area and video card did improve after fitting another internal 12 " fan

[markymoo]

are the fans fitted or do you have to fit them? try removing the fan and puting it back. maybe its one of those plastic holders for the fans that the fans slot into. lets hope it is just a trapped wire.

regarding the power led on older boards the power led were 2 pins next to each other which is opposite the hd led. now on motherboards its the same 2 pins/wires spread over 3 with pin 2 not being used. down to atx design. you need to look in your old case and swap over the black 2 pin pwr led connector with the Antec 3 pin black connector. carefully remove these. a thick pin or a thin flat scewdriver works good for this. if you going to upgrade to a new motherboard in awhile then you have to swap it back so ask yourself is it worth it. in that case just leave it off as Hairy Coo suggested :P.

these are what i'm talking about to quiet the fan instead of screws.
http://www.acoustiproducts.com/en/ultra_soft_fan_mounts.asp
and shroud
http://www.europc.co.uk/pages/ProductPage.aspx?PID=47752

maybe either of you can take pictures of your case so we can see...

[innerpeace]

Yes, there is definitely some kind of mid to deep range humming sound going on. I think it's the top fan as I can feel a vibration. It will be taken care of tomorrow ;). If I can't fix it, Antec will. I'm also not sure of any type of rubber feet or rivet the fan may have until I investigate.

I could definitely hear the two fans on medium. I sorta thought that it might be a bit quieter, but I'm not judging until I sort the top fan out. In all honesty, I think everything would remain chilly and quiet regardless of what I was doing if I added the extra "GPU" fan and ran them all on low like "The Coo" does.

I do have some good news. I turned the top and rear fans on med and then I played 3 quick games of Battlefront. During play, my GPU was 60C and CPU was 45C. In my old case with the side off, GPU was 70C and CPU was 52C. Next time I try it, I leave them all on low.

I can also feel a lot of air sucking in the front vents towards the lower chamber. My PSU feels a lot cooler than it ever has because of this :thumb:. It's also much more secure with 8 screws :o.

I'll have a look at the MB manual I downloaded and if I'm still confused, I'll see if I can post the relative info. It's really not a big deal not having a power light because I can hear it when it's on and the door is shut so I can't see it anyways. If your really bored, the MB is an MSI MS-7145 RS480, the MB has RS480M printed on it. One of the stickers shows 7145 v2.1 RS480-A21+SB400-A23.

Thanks again for help and encouragement,
innerpeace

Edit: @markymoo. I just saw your post. The fans are screwed in. I'm not sure about a seal though like in your link. Let's not worry about the Power LED. I did take note of how to swap them though :). Hopefully this machine will be running a dual core before too long :). It's 4 a.m. here, so I will have a look at the fans tomorrow.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE->
torch inside the case.
<-QUOTE}

the Antec P182SE and P190 now come with a torch inside attached to a bendy wire. neat idea.

@innerpeace
it cost you more to send the case back. i would just buy cheap anti vibration mounts if it dosen't correct. if all else fails give it a few soft bangs and taps.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> the Antec P182SE and P190 now come with a torch inside attached to a bendy wire. neat idea. <-QUOTE}
The P190 is $400 on sale with free shipping. For that much, it should install your hardware for you :P.
The P182SE is $180 on sale with free shipping. Much more reasonable. The torch/flashlight is a cool idea 8).

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,
Re our discussion about OEM OS software,apparently it can only be used with the existing motherboard.
If you install a different mobo, the OEM version wont work.
You need the retail version to transfer to a new machine or mobo.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Innerpeace,
Re our discussion about OEM OS software,apparently it can only be used with the existing motherboard.
If you install a different mobo, the OEM version wont work.
You need the retail version to transfer to a new machine or mobo. <-QUOTE}
:thumb: Thanks Hairy Coo. I'll probably have to get an OEM version. I'm not sure of the MS's flexibility if the MB would happen to die and a person replaced it with an identical one. I've heard their ok to deal with for now.

Today I had a look at the fan and it's not a wire pinched between it and the case. The fan is only held in by two rear screws and the front slides into two punched metal holders. I would rather have it held it by 4 screws. There is no isolation between the fan and the case. One of the shrouds that markymoo posted may work. I did email Antec support and I'm going to wait to see what they say.

I think I got the Power LED working, but I have a question. What is the light between the reset and power buttons? The one below the HDD LED.

Edit: Nevermind about the lower LED, It's for a 2nd HDD LED.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,
That shroud markymoo was talking about was for conducting air to the graphics card-it was a monstrous thing,but was discontinued a long time ago for the P180,obviously wasnt successful

If that fan is still vibrating-try taking it off and packing an insulating gasket between it and the case body,otherwise Antec should replace the fan and cable.Cant understand this-its the top exhaust fan?Is you spoiler in place properly?
Not quite sure how you have your LEDs arranged,but as long as they are working.

[innerpeace]

Sorry, I called it a shroud but I meant insulating gasket like in markymoo's last link. I did get the Power LED working with the help of the MB manual.

Yes, it's the top exhaust fan and I finally got the spoiler on correctly today as the little plastic slide tabs didn't stick down far enough through the case. The humming sound is still there and getting louder. I'll see what they say about it.

[markymoo]

just to clear up the confusion and my 2 cents.

The vga duct is to funnel the hot air away from the graphics card which is discontinued on the Antec. The review said it comes but that was at the time of the review but not now. I thought you had this part but no you don't. http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews/Antec%20p180%20review/P180%20review%20pics/26.jpg

A shroud or gasket is the same thing which is to cut out vibration on fans or to block the gap between the fan and any part you put a fan against., by doing this it increases airflow even more as all the air gets sent through the fan blades rather than some through the gaps at the side.
See here the white seal around the fan. http://www.acoustiproducts.com/en/fan_gaskets.asp

Alternatively buy a sheet of neoprene which also does a fine job and dampens sound. http://customaudiodesigns.co.uk/seals/hdseal.htm

Alternatively if you buy a fan such as the excellent Nexus(As you need a extra fan anyway.) http://www.nexustek.nl/NXS-nexus120mmrealsilentcasefan.htm
it includes anti vibration mountings such as these which will also do a fine job. http://www.acoustiproducts.com/en/ultra_soft_fan_mounts.asp

If you get a Nexus you can remove the fan making the noise and fit the Nexus in it's place and fit the original fan somewhere else. It is a silent fan meaning anything under 20db is silent which is ironic. Nexus go by another name in the States called Yate Loons. It has a rating of 36 CFM(cubic foot per minute) which is high for 12cm. http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=36_49&products_id=4041

I rest my case. :)

[innerpeace]

Hi markymoo. I've been doing a little searching and see others having the same humming sound. It doesn't happen with the side off, but only with it attached. I guess the negative airflow stresses the top fan which is only mounted with two screws.

Antec used to sell a product called Noise Killers which are the gaskets/shrouds. I had a look at NewEgg and they sell a set of gaskets (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999211) also. I should receive a reply from Antec tomorrow regarding this problem. They have to be aware that this is a common problem with their cases.

I read that one person removed the top fan and installed it in the middle GPU cooling fan mount. They reported nearly the same temps as before. If I have to, I may try this but the top fan is mounted to an external switch so I would need to investigate. I guess I could also see if I can drill two holes in the case for the other two fan mount screws. I'll let you all know what Antec says when they email me, hopefully it's good news.

[markymoo]

you mean positive not negative pressure. too much intake air(positive) is coming from the front and not enough exhaust building up pressure making the fan vibrate possibly. the fans have switches so set the one on the front down low and set one the back and top on a higher settings to create more negative pressure. the more negative pressure the more air will flow in. make sure dust filters are fitted at the front. ideally it should be 2:1 negative pressure and trying to make lower pressure inside the case than whats outside, thats why you have the front on low. Heat is dissipated much more quickly at low pressures. You trying to keep the airflow moving and exhausting out, sometimes the exhaust at top can make it worse so try different speeds or turn off or block it. If the temps are same or better with the top fan off or blocked then this would stop it vibrating also. The motherboard you got only allows for 5V fan connector. so you would need an adaptor that isn't worth it. you can control the fans speed by the case feature. i like that case, the PSU is in its own compartment reducing temps.even if you only get a few degrees drop it still a big difference in case temps. the 6C drop you got is actually alot.

Edit:
Those Antec fans are TriCool fans which are good and the Nexus are only slightly quieter according to review. I dont know where Hairy Coo fits his 4th fan but if you buy another fan buy one with a high CFM rating to replace the exhaust on the back to remove the heat more.

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo and innerpeace,

My 180,which is substantially the same as the 182, never had this problem with the top fan.

Putting my hand above it now,there is a slight only vibration-nothing unusual.

Sounds like a bearing is gone,but if its a common problem,then the gaskets may help

For a standard set up,the bottom 12" HDD inlet fan is fairly sealed off-so it doesnt count.

So effectively there is 1-12' fan inletting and 2- 12" fans exhausting,one top, one rear-which is exactly the 2:1 negative pressure markymoo mentions.This is what innerpeace has at the moment.

I have an additional 12" fan mounted INSIDE the case on the top HDD cage,with the external 12' fan fitted on the front of that cage effectively.
That internal 12" fan has a a lower CFM rating,and I moved the higher rated one to the rear ,exactly as markymoo suggested.

This is only helping I suppose maintaining the airflow in and out,hard to say but it does help without any adverse results.

Dont think the problem is to do with air pressure,just a mechanical problem.

Edit; Markymoo-all my fans are Tricool which as you say are about as good as most.
You can see from my setup the air pressure should also be OK for innerpeace

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> markymoo and innerpeace,

My 180,which is substantially the same as the 182, never had this problem with the top fan.
Putting my hand above it now,there is a slight only vibration-nothing unusual.

Sounds like a bearing is gone,but if its a common problem,then the gaskets may help

For a standard set up,the bottom 12" HDD inlet fan is fairly sealed off-so it doesnt count.

So effectively there is 1-12' fan inletting and 2- 12" fans exhausting,one top, one rear-which is exactly the 2:1 negative pressure markymoo mentions.This is what innerpeace has at the moment.

I have an additional 12" fan mounted INSIDE the case on the top HDD cage,with the external 12' fan fitted on the front of that cage effectively.
That internal 12" fan has a a lower CFM rating,and I moved the higher rated one to the rear ,exactly as markymoo suggested.

This is only helping I suppose maintaining the airflow in and out,hard to say but it does help without any adverse results.

Dont think the problem is to do with air pressure,just a mechanical problem.

Edit; Markymoo-all my fans are Tricool which as you say are about as good as most.
You can see from my setup the air pressure should also be OK for innerpeace <-QUOTE}

If innerpeace buys another TriCool fan and trys it in place. innerpeace will soon see if it's the fan or not. that 4th fan sounds like its doing a job of cooling the hard drives or at least pulling the heat off. We just trying things. to improve temps also, it may likely be a bearing inside the fan is faulty.

I found some info on those TriCool fans. On high its 79CFM which is good enough. I wasn't far out i said around 3W used. It good to get aquainted with this case as i looking at the P190 and Lian-Li cases are approx. the same price for the same features.

High
2000RPM 0.24A (max.) 2.24 m³ / min
(79 CFM) 2.54 mm-H2O
(0.10inch- H2O)
30 dBA
2.88 W
Medium
1600RPM 0.2A 1.59 m³ / min
(56 CFM) 1.53 mm-H2O
(0.06inch- H2O) 28 dBA 2.4 W
Low
1200RPM 0.13A 1.1 m³ / min
(39 CFM) 0.92 mm- H2O
(0.04inch- H2O) 25 dBA 1.56 W

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

Are you thinking about getting a P!90-should be good!

Part of a review shows the fan fitted on the drive cage in the same position as mine.

here (http://hi-techreviews.com/reviews_2007/Antec_190/Page7.htm)

That fan info is interesting!

[innerpeace]

Thanks for the great info! You both are very knowledgeable and I'm learning a lot. I now understand more about the airflow in my system. When I place my next order, I'm going to order another fan so I can have 3 in the upper chamber like Hairy Coo's setup and I'm going to get a pair of the silicone gaskets for my rear and top fans.

Antec replied today and asked me to remove the fan and see if it was making noise, if so they would replace it. It sounded normal to me, but it did have a slight vibration. They also wanted me to bend the two clips that hold the fan in place to minimize the space between the fan and the case. I also did this and it didn't help. I wrote them back telling them my results and about the silicone gaskets, but I probably won't hear back from them until Monday. When I replace my MB, I will drill 2 more holes so the fan will be mounted normally and I will also use a gasket.

I see NewEgg has the E8200 and E8400 in stock, but there still a bit pricey for me at $240 and $260. What are the core names from good to best in my price range?

@ markymoo, The P190 looks nice with 1200 watts and 5 fans. Were you going to try air cooling only or still go with water cooling?

FWIW, I get a Newegg newsletter and I have a coupon code for $50 off a P180. That would make the price before shipping $80. They only ship in the US though.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,
You will have 4 fans if you get another in the top-2 front at the top drive cage,plus the rear and the top and of course one at the bottom= 5.
That should be enough for anyone:)
Good that Antec are helpful:thumb:

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Innerpeace,
You will have 4 fans if you get another in the top-2 front at the top drive cage,plus the rear and the top and of course one at the bottom= 5.
That should be enough for anyone:)
Good that Antec are helpful:thumb: <-QUOTE}
I'm confused (as usual). Are you using 1 or 2 extra fans? If your running 2 extra, is it the one in front of the "GPU" fan that is blowing in from directly behind the upper air filter and the "GPU" fan?

I was thinking about adding only the "GPU" one on the inside of the upper chamber HDD cage with the 2 metal clips to cool the GPU (like in the link you posted :thumb:). If I understood you both, this should be a lower CFM fan than my top and rear exhaust fans.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> I'm confused (as usual). Are you using 1 or 2 extra fans? If your running 2 extra, is it the one in front of the "GPU" fan that is blowing in from directly behind the upper air filter and the "GPU" fan?

I was thinking about adding only the "GPU" one on the inside of the upper chamber HDD cage with the 2 metal clips to cool the GPU (like in the link you posted :thumb:). If I understood you both, this should be a lower CFM fan than my top and rear exhaust fans. <-QUOTE}

innerpeace

My mistake-I had forgotten that as standard the configuration is as follows;

Cooling:
- 1 rear 120mm TriCool Fan (standard)
- 1 top 120mm TriCool fan (standard)
- 1 lower chamber 120mm TriCool Fan (standard)
- 1 front 120mm fan (optional)
- 1 middle 120mm fan (optional) to cool the VGA

No wonder you are confused!
What in fact happened is that I installed BOTH of the optional fans-both mounted in front of and behind the top drive cage,but had forgotten the front one wasnt standard.


Firstly I fitted the front optional fan which I think is essential,as the front lower chamber fan doesnt pull any air into the top chamber,so its all negative pressure sucking in the air at the top.

Then later on,as my mobo ,video card, were still running warmish ,I fitted the second optional one.

Markymoo mentioned the ideal ratio was 2:1 negative pressure which makes sense.This draws in more dust but exhausts the stale hot air efficiently and would be in keeping with Antecs design intentions.
As the dust filters are efficient,the dust factor isnt a worry.

Fitting just that front fan gives this ideal 2:1 ratio.
So if you fit another internal fan,this should move less CFM air than the others,but as its assisting in both sucking air and expelling,probably isnt critical.

In your case I would definitely fit another Tricool fan to the same specs. as the rear and top,now,as the front fan.

The other internal could wait until you fit your new hardware-then you should also consider fitting a better CPU cooler,like an Ultra Extreme 120,for your overclocked dual core monster!!

Your

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> No wonder you are confused!
What in fact happened is that I installed BOTH of the optional fans-both mounted in front of and behind the top drive cage,but had forgotten the front one wasnt standard.

Firstly I fitted the front optional fan which I think is essential,as the front lower chamber fan doesnt pull any air into the top chamber,so its all negative pressure sucking in the air at the top.

Then later on,as my mobo ,video card, were still running warmish ,I fitted the second optional one.

Markymoo mentioned the ideal ratio was 2:1 negative pressure which makes sense.This draws in more dust but exhausts the stale hot air efficiently and would be in keeping with Antecs design intentions.
As the dust filters are efficient,the dust factor isnt a worry. <-QUOTE}
I'm always confused :P. I sorta gathered that you had both fans, but I needed clarification. I totally understand now :). I'm really glad that there are dust filters and trust me, they will stay clean.

{QUOTE-> Fitting just that front fan gives this ideal 2:1 ratio.
So if you fit another internal fan,this should move less CFM air than the others,but as its assisting in both sucking air and expelling,probably isnt critical.

In your case I would definitely fit another Tricool fan to the same specs. as the rear and top,now,as the front fan. <-QUOTE}
The 2:1 makes more sense now. I will definitely get another fan. I can always experiment with placing it up front or on the HDD tray.

{QUOTE-> The other internal could wait until you fit your new hardware-then you should also consider fitting a better CPU cooler,like an Ultra Extreme 120,for your overclocked dual core monster!! <-QUOTE}
LOL, that monster better be on sale for me to buy it. I have a feeling that before this is over, I will be considering overclocking. This whole experience has been very interesting and a lot of fun. Thank you for hanging in there with me. I appreciate it a lot :).

Cheers

[markymoo]

Hairy Coo & innerpeace, sorry for late replys...

I get a P190 although although expensive it will last years. It be for watercooling. The P190 has lots of room and has the criteria to fit this http://www.thermochill.com/pa1203.php with as little modification as possible and so easier to fit. There's only a handful of cases that require no modification. I currently have this http://www.thermochill.com/pa1202.php . A good case without having to modifiy it is a case with 10 5/14" drive bays at the front so it can be stood upright or one where it can be laid down in the bottom. A smaller case can be used but have to cut out the top or bottom for fans. This also uses a gasket between the radiator and the fans. This is it with the needed fans attached http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/3464/img4145large2de.jpg On some cases it easy to rip out the drive cages to make more room and put the hard drives somewhere else.

Other great cases i considered are these.

http://www.lian-li.com/v2/en/product/product04.php?cl_index=1&sc_index=25&ss_index=61
http://www.mountainmods.com/computer-cases-u2ufo-c-21_32.html
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9429/front2bh7.jpg mountain mod pic
http://www.silverstonetek.com/products/p_contents.php?pno=tj10-esa&area=
http://www.coolermaster.com/microsite/Cosmos/

innerpeace, just experiment with the fans and speeds and moving them around, your case temps are adequate for your hardware, when you upgrade it become more critical to lower the temps abit more. Obstructing fans makes them noiser. Getting that graphic card cooler the Ultra extreme will help alot. One thing to mention is if you go overclocking with a new chip you have to invest in a stronger power supply. My E6400 going from 2.1Ghz to 4Ghz(1.2V to 1.55.V) stable uses a massive 200 Watts. The new chips overclock very easy and use abit less power,volts to get there so it worth doing. In this situation active cooling is necessary which is blasting air at your motherboard and ram. This screws up the 2:1 ratio... so it good to have extra 120mm fans, one fan that is very powerful with low noise is Xinrullian they have over 75 CFM and 28db and not loud at all. I found them in Hairy Coo land here http://www.radiical.com.au/products/fans.asp but not in States.

{QUOTE->

I see NewEgg has the E8200 and E8400 in stock, but there still a bit pricey for me at $240 and $260. What are the core names from good to best in my price range?

<-QUOTE}

The high demand for these may push the price even further. The 8400 really is the 'best bang for the buck' The older dual cores in the higher range are bad value considering price of new models. The 6400 is still not alot less than a 8200 so it better to get the new one anyway. The quad core 6600 will come down no more than $40 which will make it around the price of a 8200 which is a great buy. The entire range isn't out yet. I know zipzoomfly.com is also popular there. Here's the lower models to consider...

lower models of new range - need 1333 FSB compatible intel motherboard

E7200
E8190

older dual core to check out - need 1066 or 1333 FSB compatible intel motherboard

E4500
E4600
E4700

A E4500 is near to the price of a new E7200.

{QUOTE-> Intel plans it usual price cut that will affect mostly the old 65nm parts. On April 20th Intel will cut Core 2 Quad Q6700 from the current $527 suggested retail price to $270. The super popular Q6600 at 2.4GHz will drop from $270 to $229. At the same time, Intel plans to introduce its Core 2 Duo E8300 45nm based CPU with 6MB cache and 2.83GHz clock and it will start selling it for $169.

The Core 2 Duo E4600 2.4GHz CPU with 2MB cache will drop from $139 to $119. Pentium Dual core E2200 with 1MB cache and 2.2GHz clock speed will drop from current $87 to $77. Dual Core E2180 clocked at 2.0GHz clock will drop from current $77 to $67.

The last two price cuts will affect the Celeron 440 at 2.0GHz and 512KB cache, it will drop from current $54 to a new low of $45. The last planned price cut affects the Celeron 430 at 1.8GHz 512KB cache and FSB 800MHz. It will drop from current $45 to $35.

All this is expected on April 20th. <-QUOTE}

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

Congratulations on your new build project -really looks interesting,please keep us informed.
Some good links provided - the monster taking shape at Chez Markymoo shows what a big case the P190 is!

inerpeace,

Here is a link for overclocking an 8400-they achieved 4.4ghz from the stock 3 ghz-not too shabby.

article (http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=717)

[innerpeace]

markymoo, Thanks for the great info, especially the quote about the prices. Your project looks very interesting and I agree with Hairy Coo, please keep us informed.

I will experiment with my fans. I'm still communicating with Antec and should know soon if they are going to replace the fan as that is what they want to do since it does have a vibration. If I don't have to send the old one back, I will use it in the center or front upper chamber. No biggie if I have to send it back because I had planned on getting another one anyways.

You make a good point about eventually needing a bigger PSU. That will have to wait for a long while so I will have to run stock speeds until then. I would also have to consider the price of the heatsinks and fans. I also want to get a decent APC UPS to protect my investment and of course, a larger monitor in that order. If I was smart, I really should buy the UPS before anything else.

Thanks for your CPU suggestions. Why would someone consider a quad core Q6600 over say a core 2 duo 8400 or vice versa? They perform similarly according to the benchmark link you provided except for the 8000 series did a little better with video. Can windows XP make use of the quad?

Hairy Coo, Thanks for the link! It was very easy to understand for a newbie and shows off the potential of the 8400.

[markymoo]

Multi core is the future. XP can do quad. A quad will own on multi-threaded applications such as encoding, video rendering and lots of maths processing. I know running a chess engine gives 2x more moves over a dual core running at the same clock speed. The time quad cores get properly utilisied on alot software will be a time when you upgrade again. A few applications and games take advantage of quad now. Quads were very expensive when they first came out and i mention now because they alot more affordable, and thats why we haven't seen much quad core software as not alot could afford. A 8400 is more than fast enough to run the best graphics. Alot of 6600 2.4Ghz quad core cannot be overclocked past 3.6 even on water no matter what. Once 8 cores come in properly next year then i'm sure having a quad will benefit but by then they be a new quad anyways. The debate still goes on as predicting the way the market will go is uncertain but Intel have stated using more and more cores is the way they will go and it be systematic that software designers will utilize that. There's always limit to how fast chips can go, so multi core will be exploited to the full. Unless you need to run a certain quad core application, a overclocked dual core will benefit especially for general use. They alot cases of getting 8400 to 4.5Ghz and 5Ghz with water. If you do alot gaming get a 8400 if you do alot multi tasking get a quad.

Edit:
Noticed E8400 are now $260! They were $199 in Febuary, so wait till the price and demand subsides. They releasing a small trickle of the new 45mm chips as they still alot of 65mm chips out there.

If you just want something to put you on for now and run games and general use and not run the latest and greatest then don't buy the latest fastest chip. Get a E4500 or E7200 instead that will still be more than you need. Once you get past 3Ghz the speed returns diminish and then it all comes down to the graphics card. Even a 2nd hand E6400 will suffice and save costs.

[innerpeace]

Thanks markymoo. You made some interesting points. I also found a long article about overclocking the Q6600 and E6750. I didn't get to finish it all, but it also mentioned a dual would save a person in energy consumption. http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/11/08/dual_vs_quad/index.html I think you and Hairy Coo are right in that a dual core would probably be best in my situation.

Can XP utilize 4 GB of RAM? They have A-data 4 GB for $72.99 with a coupon code. I really want XP, but they have Vista Home Premium with a coupon code for $80. They must be desperate LOL. They also had the Antec 900 $99 with a $40 rebate. I still like my P182 and they are suppose to be ordering me a new fan.

Also, what do you know about the E8300 that's going to be coming out at $170. It was mentioned in the Intel price drop quote above. Is it too risky to get a newly released product? Is it going to be next to impossible to see it in stock?

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> Can XP utilize 4 GB of RAM? <-QUOTE}
XP64 can. Or you can take advantage of today's prices on memory and buy the 4 GB and use it with XP32 without getting the whole 4 GB of physical memory available.
Buy the UPS (a 1000 VA unit is preferable) and forget about overclocking (IMO) until you feel somewhat "at home" with the BIOS. Mild overclocking (example: going from 2,4 GHz to 3 GHz) is the way to go to keep good temps, a silent system and without the need to raise voltages.

[innerpeace]

Hi Lucas, Thanks for the XP64 tip. I guess the "flip side" is that it's hard to get 64bit compatible drivers and software. I did do a little searching and some say that they can get XP 32bit to recognize 3.3GB. And some say 2GB is all you need with XP. DDR2 is really cheap right now and it would be hard not to consider 4GB over 2GB.

I can't worry too much about the overclocking because if it needs more power, I'm not sure my new 380watt PSU can keep up. I can't afford a new one now and I can't afford to be an extreme overclocker. It looks like a lot of fun though. A mild bump would be cool if I and my system could handle it.

I do need to get a UPS and that's a long term major investment. I want one with AVR so it can account for the slight voltage drops. That will have to wait for a while longer :-\

[Hairy Coo]

Hi Innerpeace,

You really dont need more than 2gb of memory if using XP,which needs less than Vista.
Just buy 2gb of a matched pair of high quality memory which can be used when overclocking-the specs will depend on your choice of mobo,say 800 ddr.
I am running 2gb and its plenty-rarely do I exceed 25% usage measured by the mem. bar in the taskbar-even intensive tasks like photo editing dont use much more.
There would be no gain by using more mem.

Regarding the PSU power requirements, here is a calculator you can use-http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

[lucas1985]

{QUOTE-> And some say 2GB is all you need with XP. <-QUOTE}
Not if you become a Photoshop enthusiast or plan to run two VMs at full speed. When you get out of the "average usage pattern" you start to see hardware limitations (storage space, RAM, computing power, 3D power, bandwidth, etc)
{QUOTE-> DDR2 is really cheap right now and it would be hard not to consider 4GB over 2GB. <-QUOTE}
That's my point. In mid 2009, DDR3 will be the mainstream memory technology, so the current DDR2 bonanza won't last too long. Buying 4 (or even 8 for the hardcore) GBs of RAM now is a wise choice for a system intended to last a fair time as you've stated.
{QUOTE-> I can't worry too much about the overclocking because if it needs more power, I'm not sure my new 380watt PSU can keep up. <-QUOTE}
A 500 W quality PSU is a safe bet for a mild overclock of mid/high-end components.
For your enjoyment, test (http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/534) of no-name/generic/el-cheapo PSUs ;)

[innerpeace]

Hello Hairy Coo,

Point taken with the 2GB memory and XP. I'm just going in different directions without a place to land. There are sooooo many options and this is very new to me. Maybe it just is a weird time of the year to start a build. I'm really lost without a CPU and I'm the type of person that if I can spend a little more to get a better product, I will.

I have been checking the PSU requirements at that link every now and then and without overclocking an E8400, I hit at 286w. That's with 2 SATA HDD's, a floppy, 1 cd/dvd burner, 2 USB devices, 4 fans, a SoundBlaster card and I set the capacitor aging to 20%. Keep in mind that I won't have the floppy, SoundBlaster and only 1 HDD for now, I added those as eventual purchases.

I also have a newbie mild overclocking question. At what point during overclocking do you start using more wattage? Would it be only after you increase the voltage? No need to get into specifics, I was just curious what I could get away with using my current PSU and still be plenty safe.

[lucas1985]

Equations of CPU power consumption (http://cis.poly.edu/cs2214rvs/powers03.htm) (grab a physics book from the closest library ;D)

[DVD+R]

WOW! :blink: You really get over excited answering the OP's original question, he asked about Graphics card drivers,and it blows into him spending hundreds of dollars on a whole new system :doubt: Why in the Hell cant people answer a simple question without getting exagerated :lurking:

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,

Regarding the memory,XP 32 can take 4gb see here (http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778.aspx#physical_memory_limits_windows_xp),but unless you are going to extremes as mentioned by Lucas,cant really see much point.
If using Photoshop where page after page of mem. intensive layers are saved in mem,maybe-for the average enthusiast-not necessary.
But if its so cheap and it makes you feel good,why not.
Then if you do change to Vista, you will be glad having the 4gb.

Suggest rather than buying bits and pieces,wait until the E8400 comes down in price,then buy it,together with a good mobo,Gigabyte or Asus, and memory in one go-also a more powerful PSU-seems you are right on the limit.
Also,you will need a better CPU cooler for o/clocking.

Check out my overclocking link from 19Mar-it tells you how to o/c very simply on a Gigabyte board,you can just duplicate his BIOS figures on your new Giga boards BIOS and you are off.
A few voltages have to be increased-so waiting until you have the new gear would be best-wouldnt try it with your present setup.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Not if you become a Photoshop enthusiast or plan to run two VMs at full speed. When you get out of the "average usage pattern" you start to see hardware limitations (storage space, RAM, computing power, 3D power, bandwidth, etc) <-QUOTE}
I would like to run VMware Server and linux and the last time I tried, it was slow however. VMware Player was fine with me allowing it 384MB. I'm very new to linux and VM's and the cool graphic effects weren't working and I've since freed up 128MB since I've installed the new GPU. Memory for VM's is critical as it is future of computing.

{QUOTE-> That's my point. In mid 2009, DDR3 will be the mainstream memory technology, so the current DDR2 bonanza won't last too long. Buying 4 (or even 8 for the hardcore) GBs of RAM now is a wise choice for a system intended to last a fair time as you've stated. <-QUOTE}
Very true.

{QUOTE-> A 500 W quality PSU is a safe bet for a mild overclock of mid/high-end components.
For your enjoyment, test (http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/534) of no-name/generic/el-cheapo PSUs ;) <-QUOTE}
My current PSU is an Antec EarthWatts. I definitely wouldn't skimp on a PSU, that I promise ;).

Also, I ain't no physicist :P

[DVD+R]

{QUOTE-> My current PSU is an Antec EarthWatts. I definitely wouldn't skimp on a PSU, that I promise ;). <-QUOTE}

I built my PC with The Antec EarthWatts Casing too :dry: the SONATA III 500 8)

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> Equations of CPU power consumption (http://cis.poly.edu/cs2214rvs/powers03.htm) (grab a physics book from the closest library ;D) <-QUOTE}

he is not splitting the atom:)

PS; XP32 will accomodate 4gb,see my post.

Innerpeace if you are going to run VMs etcetc just get 4gb!!

[lucas1985]

Not quite true (http://www.dansdata.com/askdan00015.htm) :)

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> WOW! :blink: You really get over excited answering the OP's original question, he asked about Graphics card drivers,and it blows into him spending hundreds of dollars on a whole new system :doubt: Why in the Hell cant people answer a simple question without getting exagerated :lurking: <-QUOTE}
LOL, it's a long story DVD+R. It actually started in another thread with me wanting to buy a graphics card and then hearing that stock emachines PSU's may be flaky. I replaced the PSU then a couple months later bought the graphics card because it was a good deal and didn't realize that it was an overclocked version (that's totally my fault). It also ran warm in my emachines box and now is more powerful than my current system.

I've always wanted to build my own system and this is my chance. I also have great help that has experience and you can't put a price on that :). Care to donate to the project LOL.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> Not quite true (http://www.dansdata.com/askdan00015.htm) :) <-QUOTE}

Well, its all going to a good cause -certainly the limit isnt 2gb

" you installed total 4GB memory, the system will detect less than 4GB of total memory because of address space allocation for other critical functions, such as:

- System BIOS (including motherboard, add-on cards, etc..)
- Motherboards resources
- Memory mapped I/O
- configuration for AGP/PCI-Ex/PCI
- Other memory allocations for PCI devices

Different onboard devices and different add-on cards (devices) will result of different total memory size.
e.g. more PCI cards installed will require more memory resources, resulting of less memory free for other uses."

"Large areas of the memory between three and four gigabytes are cordoned off for system devices in exactly the same way that chunks of the Upper Memory Area were purloined in the old days. Once again, the processor (and other system components) can talk with some devices by reading and writing memory addresses up above 3Gb" (Dan).

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> . Care to donate to the project LOL. <-QUOTE}
Will you take a check?;D

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Will you take a check?;D <-QUOTE}
LOL, I think you have donated enough ;).

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Suggest rather than buying bits and pieces,wait until the E8400 comes down in price,then buy it,together with a good mobo,Gigabyte or Asus, and memory in one go-also a more powerful PSU-seems you are right on the limit. Also,you will need a better CPU cooler for o/clocking. <-QUOTE}
That does sound like a good plan. The $89 Gigabyte MB has good ratings on the site. I'm not sure about the PSU and cooler but I'll look into them if I decide to OC.

{QUOTE-> Check out my overclocking link from 19Mar-it tells you how to o/c very simply on a Gigabyte board,you can just duplicate his BIOS figures on your new Giga boards BIOS and you are off.
A few voltages have to be increased-so waiting until you have the new gear would be best-wouldnt try it with your present setup. <-QUOTE}
I did take a look at the link and it looked very easy. I guess the new chips make it that way now.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> Thanks markymoo. You made some interesting points. I also found a long article about overclocking the Q6600 and E6750. I didn't get to finish it all, but it also mentioned a dual would save a person in energy consumption. [/URL]I think you and Hairy Coo are right in that a dual core would probably be best in my situation.

Can XP utilize 4 GB of RAM? They have A-data 4 GB for $72.99 with a coupon code. I really want XP, but they have Vista Home Premium with a coupon code for $80. They must be desperate LOL. They also had the Antec 900 $99 with a $40 rebate. I still like my P182 and they are suppose to be ordering me a new fan. <-QUOTE}

Yes the power saving another consideration but its really a nobrainer for your situation. A dual core will keep you happy long time. If it was me and getting a new faster chip, I buy Vista or XP64 because the full 4Gig can be used and if was upgrading i later buy a half decent motherboard, it will come with x64 drivers and there's x64 drivers for your graphics card so it won't be an issue. 90% of games and alot applications now run in x64. I have used x64 XP on a daily basis and ran everything i threw at it apart from Returnil security and a handful of others but i found altenatives. There was so much software choice it wasn't a issue and software specifically made for X64. I suggested XP 32 only because it 100% compatible and didn't want you to come unstuck if you had a certain program you ran that wasn't compatible. I suggest you check what software you run often and see if it compatible. If you want to run XP for your present motherboard and wont be upgrading for a long while then i suggest XP 32.

If you upgrading you got to think do i want something cheap and cheerful for now or do i want to run the good stuff in 2 years time without having to upgrade before that time. We are not trying to encourage you to get a bigger PSU or overclock but just to open your eyes to what you might want to do in the future with your system. The difference 8400 now with it's overclock potential will still be fast over the next 2 years so you won't have to upgrade for a long time except for a graphics card. Even a 4500 has potential and a good match with your graphics card. The A-data is good memory but for $15 more you might as well get these, the same ones i mentioned before, so many happy customers - on there speed vs. price. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231145 (http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/11/08/dual_vs_quad/index.html) They won't limit your potential later on. More prefer the Antec P182 than the 900.

Alot on the Ram has been answered. It's another nobrainer. I would just say buy 4gig no matter if you use x64 or not as it very affordable for 4gig. It now same price buying 4gig to 2gig. It still alot better to have 3.2 gig over 2gig. You will use it sooner or later. Alot big multi-player online games from 2007 onwards really benefit from alot ram and will use all of it. The games speed up and less jerkiness in the graphics as more gets loaded into ram. I used some weak graphic cards but using more ram has put less strain on the graphics card.

I agree with Hairy Coo. Go with a Gigabyte board aslong as you get the right model. Gigabyte will be my next board. Asus are still great just i fancy a change and Gigabyte are equal if not better and the bios is good. Anyways get that 19" monitor first.

The E8300 will fill the gap and price between the E8200 and E8400 running at a speed of 2.8Ghz. The 8190 and 8200 are the same speed except 8190 won't have Virtualization technology and trusted execution like the rest. There's bugs in all chips even ones they dont fix later on. Any major flaws get picked up in engineering samples. Bios and software updates can fix a few. When they decide to fix new bugs they don't always make it public. They release a new revision chip called a stepping. A good example is the recent Q6600 B3 stepping that got updated to G0 which also got other benefits such as less power used. The Core 2 had 34 errors when it was released and not all fixed yet. [url]http://download.intel.com/design/mobile/SPECUPDT/30922214.pdf The bugs are common on first generation chips especially new architecture so it is wise to wait for the next stepping which if any really serious bugs wouldn't be long after the first. Its the same for AMD. Retailers nowadays compete and go out of there way to tell you which stepping you are getting.

innerpeace that chip, the Amd 3200+ is an ideal chip to use in a build for a Home Theatre Pc :)
http://www.projecthtpc.co.uk/htpc_hardware.html

Talking of MultiCore...

{QUOTE-> - March 20, 2008

Microsoft and Intel Join Forces to Spur Multicore Research - Microsoft and Intel provide joint grants to optimize multicore software

Microsoft and Intel joined together to build two research centers focused on parallel computing and multicore programming research. The companies have agreed to offer a combined $20 million to two universities to fund the centers.

Microsoft and Intel plant to establish Universal Parallel Computing Research Centers at two universities, UC-Berkely and the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Both companies have agreed to invest the grant over a period of five years.

"This is a once-in-a-career opportunity to recast the foundations of information technology and influence the entire IT industry for decades to come," said David Patterson, UC-Berkeley professor of computer sciences, in an announcement. "We are excited and proud to be a part of this ambitious effort."

The centers will promote industry/university collaboration in solving problems that face the IT industry. The centers will be focused on parallel computing and multicore programming research and will help make new software technologies available to mainstream users. According to Microsoft and Intel, software developed by the centers will be made available to the vast technology community for further refinement.

According to Microsoft and Intel, the shift to multicore processors has made it imperative to further refine our current methods of programming as well as creating new methods. Software optimization is necessary in order to take advantage of the multiple cores found on modern CPUs.

Microsoft and Intel won't be the only ones providing for the research centers. UC-Berkely researchers are also applying for a UC Discovery Grant, which matches industry grants through state and university funding. The University of Illinois committed another $8 million to the project.

Microsoft says the two universities were chosen out of a pool of 25 high-tech and leading computer science universities. <-QUOTE}

@DVD+R
It's not like that. innerpeace had already considered before and PM'ed me before this thread even existed about upgrading parts on his present system. He opened up a thread so everybody could contribute. We are guiding him so he don't make any expensive mistakes. innerpeace bought a new graphics card that run too hot in his case, so he sensibly bought a decent case, while realising the Amd 3200+ and RAM just won't cut it running his current graphics card so he just asking for good advice on possible upgrade solutions within his budget and were just informing and maximising performance while keeping the cost down. It's upto innerpeace if he wants to keep his current setup or upgrade. It still a benefit to know even if he upgrades now or in the future. If he going to upgrade anyway it better he has informed choices.

its not:

problem with graphics card?

solution: buy a new system.

problem solved lol

[innerpeace]

Thanks again for the great information markymoo.

In order to keep things organized, I should make a few decisions as to what I have mind for the build. As far as a processor, let's go with an 8400, 8200, 8300 or the cheaper quads. The prices have to drop (hopefully in a month) for me to consider any of these and I would rather avoid the 8300 until proven. GigaByte looks good for a MB or any other quality one that may be on sale at the time I purchase a processor. I'm also going to go with 4 GB's of decent DDR2 RAM. I'll have to figure out which version of XP that would fit my usage. I may also grab a SATA HDD, but it's afterthought as I have one I can use for now. That plan should get us up and running and other pieces can be purchased later. How does that sound to everyone?

As far as overclocking, I'm not going to worry about it if it takes too much extra 'juice'. Later, after the build, I can get a more powerful PSU and a good CPU heatsink and then we can have fun ;D. If I can bump my speed a little with the new CPU and my current PSU, I will seriously consider it. It is fun learning about overclocking and they are making it much easier.

Plan B would be choose the other processors suggested by markymoo and Hairy Coo or by anyone else, but the rest will stay the same.

With all the great help that everyone has provided, I thought it was only fair that I set some sort of goal or path for us follow. This should end up being a decent system with a lot of potential. I'm also still open to all suggestions and comments and will probably have many more questions. And please know that I have been over and over these pages and posts a few times and it amazes me the quality of information that's been posted.

Thank you,
innerpeace

[markymoo]

The motherboard choice is an easy one. There are two popular boards that stand out at great price that use solid state capacitors which means stability and longer life. Either is great as a first board. Most boards come with onboard sound so you won't have to buy any sound card.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128059

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127031

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,
interesting choices!

Whats your opinion about the following problem.

My CPU temps have shot up by 15c .
All fans are working at med-high,the filters are clean-the overclocking is as before and OK-no app. which shouldnt be running is stressing the CPU-no malware!
Wouldnt think seal between cpu/cooler has changed
The only change is I carried out an XP-SP2 repair install using XP-SP3 beta.
ATM,thinking CoreTemp may be reporting wrong temps.

[innerpeace]

markymoo, those MB's look good to me :thumb:.

Hairy Coo, I hope you figure out what is going on. Did the heatsink come loose? Or is that not even possible? Maybe it's time for a new build :P.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> markymoo, those MB's look good to me :thumb:.

Hairy Coo, I hope you figure out what is going on. Did the heatsink come loose? Or is that not even possible? Maybe it's time for a new build :P. <-QUOTE}

Thats a last resort-reseating the CPU/Cooler-major job.:thumbd:
Gotta check the O/C voltages-its not dangerous but I like the temps arctic cool!
In a year or so will probably build a new monster-gotta keep up with you :)

Edit;I booted back to faulty XP-SP2 from XP SP3 beta,by restoring an SP image,both running exactly the same apps and the CPU temps dropped by 15c!!!

So its not a hardware problem.

Something wrong with XP-SP3 beta repair install-no obvious conflicts or stressed apps-unbelievable.
If I didnt know better I would say XP3 is running hotter for some fundamental reason,maybe to do with being a beta or RC.
Will try a repair install using SP2
Anyway O/T-will post elsewhere if necessary

[innerpeace]

I can understand about wanting cool temps ;).

Have you heard of a program called Real Temp? I was just looking over an article about it. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=179044 I only read the first page though and I would advise the usual precautions if anyone downloads the program as this is the first time I have heard about it and LinkScanner is flagging fileden dot com and not the above link. http://linkscanner.explabs.com/linkscanner/checksite.asp?NS=ChkOnly&SRC=apps.ExpLabs.com&CS=http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=179044

From what I briefly read, Core Temp actually reads high anyways. Hopefully you'll understand more of the information than I did. Also see here for more talk on Real Temp. http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/246491-29-there-sheriff-town-real-temp

Also, can't you restore an image to see if it was the repair of SP2 or in the Beta SP3 install increasing the temps? I know, it's a pain in the butt, but it would eliminate a software problem as the cause.

Edit: Corrected 2nd link

[Hairy Coo]

Good find,Innerpeace-very interesting.
I installed Real Temp,but unfortunately it shows the same temp as Core Temp, PC Wizard and Gigabyte EasiTune,so the higher temp. seems accurate,jumped from 32c to 47c.
I now did an XP-SP2 repair, but this gives the same 15c higher temps ,as an XP SP3 repair-so there seems some repair conflict with something else-who knows.
Will eventually have to do a complete reinstall, by the way its going,so will carry on until the SP3 final is out,and do it then.
Thanks for your help.


Edit-possible the sensors are stuck and inaccurate,judging by the Real test!
Finito!!
Innerpeace-dont want to hijack your thread!

[markymoo]

@Hairy Coo

Its another excuse to switch to water :P. My initial thoughts was alot dust build up on your fans making it hotter inside and heating up the area around the cpu, or you changed the voltage in bios and then it struck me i did a early beta install of SP3 and got some weird readings. The cpu would of had to break away alot to go up that far. I just got a 6600 quad core, it started out at 23C and has now dropped to 18C after 10 hours as the thermal takes hold. It definately SP3 causing incorrect temp readings. It not that SP3 is raising the temp so high, it's the temp software not working correctly with SP3. Everybody swore use Core Temp...use Coretemp! turns out it's wrong by as much as 10-15C lol , also current version of cpu-z has issues with SP2. Thats why it good to have a few temp controls and try to take an average. As long as the temp don't go over the thermal design of the chip. I say don't go over 60-65C and you be ok but some goto 70C. I use a lcd fan controller that can controls 4 fans http://www.akasa.co.uk/akasa_english/spec_page/control_panels/spec_ak_fc_03.htm that comes with 4 thermal monitoring probes to take temp other than your cpu, you can stick in your case in different areas. It useful, not expensive and looks good to boot and probably better reading than software. Cpu temps and CFM of fans you got to take with a pinch of salt. Can you say SP3 uninstalled itself properly...
@innerpeace
Well done finding the Real Temp, :thumb: i got to chuckle you say you not into overclocking then find that! hehe

Those boards are on the budget side but you get alot features for your money and still overclock good if you want to have fun later on. They work fine with 8400, 8200 and i'm sure 8300 but you never know. The P35 chipset is not newest but has now become the most stable chipset, smaller issues due to it being out awhile and the bios becoming mature.

[Hairy Coo]

Exciting stuff markymoo-hows the new case and what is your O/C figure with the Q6600-be interested how it compares with dual quad generally ?

It does look like SP3 causes problems with accurate temp read outs ??? Thanks for your confirmation!

Double checked my three temp read outs-Core Temp gives 46/42-PC Wizard says processor temp is 31c(but individual temps are also 46/42??)and EaziTune gives 28c.

So judging from previous experience with SP2, I would say the temps are still low 30s!!.

Havent tried uninstalling SP3,as otherwise its OK-not any faster though.

Yes Innerpeaces find of Real is handy,especially the Test Sensors feature-assuming its reliable-mine are stuck!

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> @innerpeace
Well done finding the Real Temp, :thumb: i got to chuckle you say you not into overclocking then find that! hehe

Those boards are on the budget side but you get alot features for your money and still overclock good if you want to have fun later on. They work fine with 8400, 8200 and i'm sure 8300 but you never know. The P35 chipset is not newest but has now become the most stable chipset, smaller issues due to it being out awhile and the bios becoming mature. <-QUOTE}
Honestly, I wasn't purposely looking for overclocking info LOL. I was looking in newegg's forums, eggxpert dot com for info on the stock and what people thought of the 8200 and 8400's. Somebody had posted a link to the Real Temp thread. Don't you have to calibrate it for it to be accurate?

I also heard that some desperate folks are grabbing up Xeon E3110 because it's the same as the E8400. What are your thought's on that? http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=178255 and http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=181384

I may go ahead and get a slightly better MB when I place the order. A few dollars here and there should be worth the investment. Also, good to hear you got a Q6600 :thumb:. Let us know how your getting along with it. I'm still considering one myself.

@ Hairy Coo, don't worry about getting off topic. This whole thread is OT LOL. I'm actually learning a lot from everything posted and now I'm definitely going to avoid SP3 for a long while now that markymoo has confirmed identical findings. I'm glad you posted this valuable information :).

I'm not sure if this helps but in my reading, somebody mentioned pressing on the cooler while watching the temps to see if they drop to rule out a break in the cpu/cooler seal.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,

With Gigabyte,the ranking of the boards is from model DS3,then 4,then 6 which is generally packed with too may features.

I have a DS4,good board,fast,reliable,simple bios.
Going along with markymoos ideas-if you want to go one step higher-check out the GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 Rev. 2.0 at NewEgg for $129-all you want,better cooling.

I'm starting to hope no more probs occur with SP3.
Apart from the temp issue(definitely not a seal prob.),its now not shutting down, with a well known but unresolved error.
These issues may be the result of some conflict-but didnt happen with SP2.
But then again,mine is a beta.:doubt:

[innerpeace]

Hairy Coo, Thanks for heads up on the Gigabyte MB's. The price for the one you posted is actually $199. The $129 is for an open box one which may be missing the extras like the I/O panel shield. I'm not sure if the I/O shield that came with the P182 would work or not. It does look like a really nice board with the cooling pipes.

Here's a comparison (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010200280%2050001314%20107172277%201071728997&bop=And&CompareItemList=N82E16813128059%2CN82E16813128082%2CN82E16813128086%2CN82E16813128087) of the top 4 Gigabyte MB's at newegg. If this ends up being a business machine eventually, the Raid may come in handy with the middle priced boards. I'm also not sure if I would need the 1600 O.C. fsb or not which they have. I honestly don't know anything about the front side buses or if a slightly better north or south bridge really matters when I decide to eventually overclock.

It's also good to hear it's not a seal problem with your machine. I had a Windows 98SE that only shut down about 50% of the time. It was a huge PITA :wacko:.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,
If you are going to buy a DS3 board,just buy the one markymoo recommended,you wont need the other features,especially that marketing gimmick about energy saver,they are just jumping on the bandwaggon:dry:

Pity about that open box -are you sure-all I could see is a reference to their open box policy.
edit-Now I can see if its marked retail its a new box,otherwise open!

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> Exciting stuff markymoo-hows the new case and what is your O/C figure with the Q6600-be interested how it compares with dual quad generally ? <-QUOTE}

{QUOTE-> Also, good to hear you got a Q6600 . Let us know how your getting along with it. I'm still considering one myself. <-QUOTE}

The overclock of the Q6600 has been alot harder to get stable than any other chip i've used. even if i use more voltages it don't like. The max safe limit is 1.5 V. Once i go past 1.4 it don't make a difference. I had it upto 1.55 as the voltage is always less than being reported. I upped the NB voltages and everything else in stages. It's not a temperature issue as its only 29C at 3.4 and now the NB is now watercooled to see if it made a difference. I booted into windows at 3.6 but not stable whatever it try. Alot can't get past 3.4 with the majority of cooling but this is high end watercooling so i expected abit more. Yes you can get it to 3.4 on good air cooling but that's on the P35 boards. It's the Asus P5B Deluxe 965 chipset which is a great board but not for these quads. The memory is running slower than its default speed. A cheaper P35 board would give a better result as it provides native support for quad. The PWM voltage regulators are not the best on this board. There's a pencil mod for this board to reduce vdroop but i will settle for 3.4. I run it slower than this to save electric costs. It sure is fast enough. I not got the case yet. I still been planning, comparing cases i just want to make sure it fits the way i want. I will let you know :thumb:

{QUOTE->

Double checked my three temp read outs-Core Temp gives 46/42-PC Wizard says processor temp is 31c(but individual temps are also 46/42??)and EaziTune gives 28c. <-QUOTE}

That's a contrast of difference. Go back to SP2 if the temps reading matter to ease your worrys, until they come out with new fixed versions. Shame you didn't take an image.

{QUOTE-> Real Temp. Don't you have to calibrate it for it to be accurate? <-QUOTE}

The author says the cpu always runs 3-5C at idle over the ambient temperature. So you would need to take the temprature around the case and use the + - minus. Intel state tjmax even varys from chip to chip but on the 45mm chips its reading 105C so everybody is using this reading.

{QUOTE->

I also heard that some desperate folks are grabbing up Xeon E3110 because it's the same as the E8400. What are your thought's on that? <-QUOTE}

There maybe some logical truth to this. Yes it's the same as a 8400 only thing different is the voltage range. Speculation is that the Xeon 3110 is a higher grade 8400 as it works at lower temps and it needs to work in a server environment with stability so generates less heat. The 3110 has been able to overclock just as high as the 8400 but with less voltage and it is $40 less. It should work on most 45mm motherboards if not all. To those who can't get a 8400 you won't be any worse off but probably better off as you save more electric. I say get one! It seems alot places these are sold out too and users not being able to wait are grabbing a Q6600 in desperation. Maybe this is what Intel wants to dry up surplus stock.

{QUOTE->
I was looking in newegg's forums, eggxpert dot com for info on the stock and what people thought of the 8200 and 8400's <-QUOTE}

The thing to do is not believe every review on newegg, cpu's aside as they always work but other parts like memory and motherboards as some don't properly test and send it back for the fun of it.

{QUOTE->
I honestly don't know anything about the front side buses or if a slightly better north or south bridge really matters when I decide to eventually overclock. <-QUOTE}

You should learn about the Bios basics as it will help you master the rest. Overclocking is alot less scary now thanks to better bios and thermal cut out safety in cpu's. The Northbridge chips gets hotter as alot more is going on. Cpu and memory come together there. Devices that use the Southbridge are not being used all the time. It not necessary to cool the SB as much as the NB. Look at this diagram it will explain all. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/98/Motherboard_diagram.png Those heatpipes designs you see now are to cool the NB and power regulators around the cpu. You can replace them with better to get higher overclock. Thats why you when you spend more on a board they meant to give you better quality parts and cooling. If you look at that diagram you see the FSB between the CPU and the NB. This is the data rate back and forth. Raise the FSB you raise the data flow and so raise the speed. The higher the FSB the higher the voltage is needed and more heat generated.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE->

I may go ahead and get a slightly better MB <-QUOTE}

ok the DS3R and DS3P are great boards. The Gigabyte DS4 is classed as a high end board hence the price of $200 You can get the heatpipe cooling of the DS4 on the top of the range Gigabyte DS3P http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128083 which comes after the DS3R which isn't mentioned on that comparison list. Do you need extra SATA, E-SATA, USB and Firewire and the heatpipe design then get the DS3P as the DS3L has less and no E-SATA and Firewire. The DS3P comes with RAID too. They may come with more bios features compared to the DS3L but i don't know.

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

The q6600 seems to have similar characteristics to my E6600-it also wont o/clock past 3.4 and needs a fair bit of voltage.

Do you find it seems faster in some tasks?

How is the new case?

The temp. problem is a joke and makes it difficult to know what is accurate.
ATM my Core Temp reports 46/42,while the BIOS gives CPU temp as 22c ???
Doesnt worry me but takes some readjusting.
The HD temps,which were always more than the CPU are 37c,so as I said ,I'm assuming a true CPU temp in the low 30s,as before.
As I slipstream installed SP3,there is no uninstall/revert to SP2,so any reinstall of SP2,which I tried,would mean d/loading about 100mb of updates.
These of course,refused to install!!
I'll stick to SP3 beta and hope the final which may come out in April,will be relatively bug free.

Yes,the DS3R is supposed to be a great board,especially for o/clocking.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> If you are going to buy a DS3 board,just buy the one markymoo recommended,you wont need the other features,especially that marketing gimmick about energy saver,they are just jumping on the bandwaggon:dry:

Pity about that open box -are you sure-all I could see is a reference to their open box policy.
edit-Now I can see if its marked retail its a new box,otherwise open! <-QUOTE}
Thanks Hairy Coo,

When I looked at the board, it showed 2 different things both times :what:. Their open box policy states that the product is provided as is and the buyer is responsible for all repairs. It's still a very nice board.

I also heard SP3 was going to be released in April and hopefully both your problems will be fixed. I imagine they have to deal with the Vista SP1 problems first before opening another can of worms.

[innerpeace]

markymoo, Good to hear your up and running and you've started overclocking. I bet that thing can do some major calculations.

{QUOTE-> The author says the cpu always runs 3-5C at idle over the ambient temperature. So you would need to take the temprature around the case and use the + - minus. Intel state tjmax even varys from chip to chip but on the 45mm chips its reading 105C so everybody is using this reading. <-QUOTE}
Thanks, in the one link I posted, I remember reading about the +, ++ or -, -- settings but thought that the guy slowed the processor first which would be a bit complicated LOL.

{QUOTE-> There maybe some logical truth to this. Yes it's the same as a 8400 only thing different is the voltage range. Speculation is that the Xeon 3110 is a higher grade 8400 as it works at lower temps and it needs to work in a server environment with stability so generates less heat. The 3110 has been able to overclock just as high as the 8400 but with less voltage and it is $40 less. It should work on most 45mm motherboards if not all. To those who can't get a 8400 you won't be any worse off but probably better off as you save more electric. I say get one! It seems alot places these are sold out too and users not being able to wait are grabbing a Q6600 in desperation. Maybe this is what Intel wants to dry up surplus stock. <-QUOTE}
Thanks for the confirmation. I'm still going to hold out a while longer hoping for the stock to increase and the prices to drop. Intel is certainly 'milking' the public with these chips. It make a person want to go with AMD. I'm going to keep my eye what people are saying about the E3110 over the next month and maybe I can end up saving a little more cash.

{QUOTE-> You should learn about the Bios basics as it will help you master the rest. Overclocking is alot less scary now thanks to better bios and thermal cut out safety in cpu's. The Northbridge chips gets hotter as alot more is going on. Cpu and memory come together there. Devices that use the Southbridge are not being used all the time. It not necessary to cool the SB as much as the NB. Look at this diagram it will explain all. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/98/Motherboard_diagram.png Those heatpipes designs you see now are to cool the NB and power regulators around the cpu. You can replace them with better to get higher overclock. Thats why you when you spend more on a board they meant to give you better quality parts and cooling. If you look at that diagram you see the FSB between the CPU and the NB. This is the data rate back and forth. Raise the FSB you raise the data flow and so raise the speed. The higher the FSB the higher the voltage is needed and more heat generated. <-QUOTE}
Interesting. The diagram helped explain a lot. When I decide on a MB, it would probably be worth my while to download the MB manual and look over it before everything get's here. I was really surprised how detailed the MB manual was that I downloaded of my present MB.

{QUOTE-> ok the DS3R and DS3P are great boards. The Gigabyte DS4 is classed as a high end board hence the price of $200 You can get the heatpipe cooling of the DS4 on the top of the range Gigabyte DS3P http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128083 which comes after the DS3R which isn't mentioned on that comparison list. Do you need extra SATA, E-SATA, USB and Firewire and the heatpipe design then get the DS3P as the DS3L has less and no E-SATA and Firewire. The DS3P comes with RAID too. They may come with more bios features compared to the DS3L but i don't know. <-QUOTE}
E-SATA is probably important as my external HDD enclosure has E-SATA. I don't have any Firewire devices and I can always get an extra PCI USB card if I need extra USB ports. I'm not sure about RAID, but I may like it in the future. I need to do a little more studying on my future needs.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,

Dont forget you dont need eSATA for your external SATA drive to work,only SATA-just transfer your existing bracket etc.

Edit;Interesting about the Xeon-didnt know that!
They are also about $50 cheaper here,but no stock-what a winner for Intel between these two!

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Innerpeace,

Dont forget you dont need eSATA for your external SATA drive to work,only SATA-just transfer your existing bracket etc.
Interesting about the Xeon-didnt know that! <-QUOTE}
I understand about the eSATA thing but I thought hot-swapping might come in handy someday. I didn't know about the Xeons either, but people are getting desperate and impatient (including me) waiting for the E8400's. Let's keep the E3110 a secret :lurking: :shifty: :P .

I just saw your edit, $50 cheaper is really good. I think it's only $20-30 here. I hoping they flood the market with these things soon. I'm not sure what intel is trying to do...

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> markymoo,

The q6600 seems to have similar characteristics to my E6600-it also wont o/clock past 3.4 and needs a fair bit of voltage. Do you find it seems faster in some tasks? <-QUOTE}

It seems my suspicions were right. The power voltage regulation , ripple current on the board is not great for quads. and it won't be on pre x38,x48 boards. The newer P35 boards do. I should be able to get upto 3.8 anything over that requires more than water. There is a FSB wall with my board at 400 with quads. The best boards for overclocking quads are the Asus P5K Premium http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=11&l3=534&l4=0&model=1749&modelmenu=1
which is slightly less price than your DS4. It also beats the great Abit IP35 Pro which has digital PWM which was the board i was going to get. The other good board is the DK P35-T2RS
http://eu.dfi.com.tw/Product/xx_product_spec_details_r_us.jsp?PRODUCT_ID=5718&CATEGORY_TYPE=LP%20DK&SITE=UK which is a 1/5th cheaper than the Asus. They have a new bios feature that helps stabilty called CPU PLL at the higher FSB. I'm going for the P5k Premium, Gigabyte hasn't got anything this good for quads.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg211/wils07/P1010691.jpg :) good chipset cooling

Here is my suggestions. 3.4 on air is very good. Now i see how much strain these quads put on the board more than a dual core and so that NB heats up so much. You really need to get that NB cooler you considered before and some heatsinks on the mosfets around the cpu like a couple of these. http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_page/product_page/mosfet/product_mosfet_cooler_hr09.htm?art=MTQyMywxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA== Like so http://www.izipik.com/images/20080216/jpskvij5uflrmq5jhf-04.jpg

Remove the entire heatpipe and heatsinks and replace the tim with better like Artic Silver 5 and replace with one of these on the NB
http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_page/product_page/chipset/hr05_ifx/product_chitset_cooler_hr05_ifx.htm?art=MTQyMywxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA== or this http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=northbridge_cooler.html

Then fit any one of these to the SB and use AS5 again.
http://www.zalman.co.kr/ENG/product/CategorySecond_Pic.asp?categoryname=Coolers&categorySecond=CAS4

Good thing is those components you can use again on your next upgrade. If that lot don't improve things...Do that or go water :).

{QUOTE-> How is the new case? <-QUOTE}
No case yet you must of missed what i was saying.

{QUOTE-> The temp. problem is a joke and makes it difficult to know what is accurate.ATM my Core Temp reports 46/42,while the BIOS gives CPU temp as 22c <-QUOTE}

I always thought the 22C was very low even for the Ultra, sounds way too good. Install another XP along side the one you got into another folder eg. C:\WIN and move your data, my docs etc from old into the new XP and then delete your old XP C:\WINDOWS folder :)

Here's considered now one of the best software around now for stability testing to try out. http://www.ocbase.com/perestroika_en/ no install needed.

{QUOTE-> Yes,the DS3R is supposed to be a great board,especially for o/clocking. <-QUOTE}

Here's another mid range board that gives the DS3R a run, is great quality components and good overclock and not getting the appreciation it deserves. It has excellent heatpipes especially for the price. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130098

Also check out and research the Asus P5K-E boards
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=p5k-e&x=0&y=0

That's it for boards now...i mentioned all the best mid range and low range over the last few posts.

@innerpeace
On second thoughts..I been studying benchmarks. An overclocked E8500 running at 4.3Ghz is only narrowly faster than a Quad 6600 on applications. In games and graphic intensive software the margin is even narrower and the bottleneck will be on the graphics card. The framerate be so high anyway it wont matter which cpu you run. The new SSE4 instruction set in the 8000 series cpus is not utilized in software so this will have some speed up in future software but by how much who knows. A 3.0Ghz overclocked quad should be faster than a overclocked E8500 4.3Ghz on multi threaded applications and encoding. It a good reason to consider a quad.

Sources:
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=1096&model2=871&chart=430
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/core2quad-q9300.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/02/19/wolfdale_on_steroids/page8.html

{QUOTE->

Do you find it seems faster in some tasks?

<-QUOTE}

Yes so far multi-tasking is good and the chess engine processes 600-1000 million moves a second compared to the previous 200-350 :)

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

Thanks for all the good reading and advice about cooling-will work through it!.

That MSI Neo board looks like it may just be what Innerpeace is after,even has eSATA.
Quality and value.

Thought you had a new P192?

Whats after water cooling-stick it in the fridge-nitrogen? or out the front at chez innerpeace.

Do you think the quad is faster for some apps, in your usage?

Unfortunately my overclock settings have just reverted to default after installing a troublesome app.(or it may be SP3 and the app.) so cant test OCCT just now.:thumb:

edit; OCCT is great-tells you more than you want to know.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE->

Thanks for all the good reading and advice about cooling-will work through it!. <-QUOTE}

I been away from overclocking for over a year and getting back into it and these quads are a different animal. I am getting upto speed and on the lookout for a board too so i killed 3 birds with one stone :).

{QUOTE->
That MSI Neo board looks like it may just be what Innerpeace is after,even has eSATA.Quality and value. <-QUOTE}

Yes it a great board. MSI motherboards are just not popular, if you can get round that. Info + Reviews
http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3169

{QUOTE->
Thought you had a new P192?
<-QUOTE}

i said it was the likeliest out of the ones i looked at that i will get.

{QUOTE->
Whats after water cooling-stick it in the fridge-nitrogen? or out the front at chez innerpeace. <-QUOTE}

Using a peltier is next and can be used in conjunction with water.
http://forum.overclock3d.net/showthread.php?t=3855
You have to insulate the board area around the cpu with liquid electrical tape to prevent condensation on parts which means you won't be able to sell your mothervboard again and next up is using dry ice(frozen carbon dioxide) not pratical of course. http://www.overclockingpin.com/cooling.html
and then liquid nitrogen
http://www.tomshardware.com/2003/12/30/5_ghz_project/

{QUOTE->
Do you think the quad is faster for some apps, in your usage? <-QUOTE}
yes i was saying before at bottom of last post.

{QUOTE->
I'm also not sure if I would need the 1600 O.C. fsb or not which they have.
<-QUOTE}

1600 cpu's will be soon around the corner. They will need DDR3 memory. E8400 use 1333 FSB and Q6600 uses 1066FSB

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> @innerpeace
On second thoughts..I been studying benchmarks. An overclocked E8500 running at 4.3Ghz is only narrowly faster than a Quad 6600 on applications. In games and graphic intensive software the margin is even narrower and the bottleneck will be on the graphics card. The framerate be so high anyway it wont matter which cpu you run. The new SSE4 instruction set in the 8000 series cpus is not utilized in software so this will have some speed up in future software but by how much who knows. A 3.0Ghz overclocked quad should be faster than a overclocked E8500 4.3Ghz on multi threaded applications and encoding. It a good reason to consider a quad. <-QUOTE}
Thanks a million markymoo! I think you have covered every decent MB out there. You have given me a lot to think about. I agree with Hairy Coo that the MSI MB looks like it might fit my needs. I was also looking at the those benchmarks last night and getting a Q6600 is very tempting. I will have a look at the rest of the links over the next couple of days. I couldn't OC the Q6600 until I got a new PSU which will come later. I wonder how much juice it would take at 3.0Ghz? I also expect the price on it to drop as the Q6700 is dramatically dropping April 20th according to the quote you posted.

Thanks,
innerpeace

Edit: The MSI P35 Neo2-FR isn't compatible with a Quad Core from what I see so I'll have to keep that in mind if I go with a quad.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,

from Toms Hardware;

"Overall, the current quad core processor generation does provide the performance reserves that Intel promised. However, there are still many applications that do not yet take much advantage of more than two cores. Our conclusion is thus simple: if you can get a quad core of similar clock speed for only a little premium over the dual core, go for it; if not, stick to a reasonably priced dual core."

Read the whole article here (http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/10/08/parallel_processing/) and decide.

Certainly wouldnt write off an E8400 or Xeon!

edit see here its compatible (http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?func=prodcpusupport&prod_no=1261&maincat_no=1&cat2_no=&cat3_no=#menu)

[markymoo]

@innerpeace it sure is compatible with quad its an P35 board :) it has the same layout as the MSI platinum board which is good.

i'm now going for this board. it about the best for quads right now and for anything else and cheaper than the Asus. fantastic board fantastic price.
http://www.motherboardpro.com/DFI-LanParty-Dark-P35-T2RS-Socket-775-Motherboard-p-428.html

@Hairy Coo
a quad maybe a better future proof, if there is such a thing as there be more software around. if you into mostly gaming i say go with the dual core otherwise get a quad. both cpus be fine for innerpeace's graphic card and the framerate will be more than the highest needed. the bottle neck will be the graphics. its only when you use another graphics card in the future and want to run the latest games then squeezing every last drop of performance can matter then the 8400 will be better for that, that's if they haven't developed games that utilize more cores by then.

Something else you can do to knock off upto 10C off your temps but invalidates your warranty. http://www.thetechrepository.com/showthread.php?t=71

Some watercooled Antec P182's
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=175842&highlight=p182
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=181643&highlight=p182
http://www.watercoolinguk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1998&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://www.watercoolinguk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2149&highlight=p182

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

That 182 looks sick inside-like colored intestines!

Sounds like an absolute MUST for innerpeace!

Havent tried lapping,there seem to be many different opinions,but you would think Arctic Silver would fill in any irregularities just as well.

The trouble with quads seems to be that the really fast ones are really expensive.

Think my next will still be a dual,possibly with watercooling (you just about talked me into it) then maybe a quad.

Have you read any reviews about the DF mobo?Couldnt find any.

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> from Toms Hardware;

"Overall, the current quad core processor generation does provide the performance reserves that Intel promised. However, there are still many applications that do not yet take much advantage of more than two cores. Our conclusion is thus simple: if you can get a quad core of similar clock speed for only a little premium over the dual core, go for it; if not, stick to a reasonably priced dual core."

Read the whole article here (http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/10/08/parallel_processing/) and decide.

Certainly wouldnt write off an E8400 or Xeon! <-QUOTE}
Thanks Hairy Coo, that was a good read! I was confused for a little while trying to figure out what a Core 2 Duo Single Core was LOL. I guess they forced it to run on one core for the tests. A quad is tempting and I'm sure the tech will only get better once it is a true quad core. My older games won't benefit from the quad either, but it's future use might be beneficial. I think I'm going to try to get the best bang for the buck. I'm sure all of them would do more than I needed.

I also see that some new chips are trickling in at newegg like the Q9300 and Q9450 for $299 and $379. Too rich for my blood, but that should mean prices should start dropping a teeny bit.

{QUOTE-> edit see here its compatible (http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?func=prodcpusupport&prod_no=1261&maincat_no=1&cat2_no=&cat3_no=#menu) <-QUOTE}
Thanks :) That is very good news. Does that mean that if I don't have that version that I could flash the BIOS to make it compatible with the quads IF I get one? Ok, I just read that it may be tough to flash the BIOS because it can't be done from a HDD. I will have to investigate further.

My current MB is an MSI and it's worked fine. I just wish they would ditch the neon colors :gack:.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,

Yes the BIOS is just flashed as necessary,usually a very simple task these days.
Would be surprised if you have any problems-usually an updater is provided with the mobo software
MSI would be one of the top brands,seems to have slipped a bit in the last few years because of the duopoly of Asus and GigaByte,but that means nothing.
Just wear Polaroids!!

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Yes the BIOS is just flashed as necessary,usually a very simple task these days.
Would be surprised if you have any problems-usually an updater is provided with the mobo software
MSI would be one of the top brands,seems to have slipped a bit in the last few years because of the duopoly of Asus and GigaByte,but that means nothing.
Just wear Polaroids!! <-QUOTE}
LOL, my case door is always shut anyways so I wouldn't have to look at the bright colors. I'm still a little disturbed anyways seeing all those pictures markymoo posted of people hacking up their P182's :'(. Water cooling isn't for the timid :blink:. I do like all the funky 'intestine' looking hoses though. I wonder if I can use a heater radiator out of a car? :blink: ;D :P .

As far as the BIOS flashing goes for the MSI, I read a couple of reviews about it and it seemed sorta tough. Maybe they weren't too bright either. If I have to do it from a USB flash drive or a floppy, I would be out of luck.

My cpu temps have creeped up a bit and I was surprised to see how much dust the filters have accumulated. That's the 2:1 negative air pressure at work ;). I will clean them tomorrow.

markymoo, Nice links with pics :thumb:.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> I couldn't OC the Q6600 until I got a new PSU which will come later. I wonder how much juice it would take at 3.0Ghz?
<-QUOTE}

More things to think about...

Yes you would really need a decent PSU, even if you overclock a dual also. 65W dual 105W Quad. A 3.0Ghz quad would consume around 150W. A user stated a overclocked Q6600 3.3Ghz 24/7 consumes $15/month. An overclocked 8400 3.6GHz at idle uses 100W and 150W at full load. Intel stated the newer quads use 25% less power but in reviews they stating only 5% saving.

Here is a benchmarks of power consumption and overclocked.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/core2quad-q9300_13.html#sect0


If you going to keep your pc upgrade along time then i would get a quad as Intel and MS are investing in that as Nehalem will have it and any other multi core cpus will benefit. If you using pc for browsing general tasks and gaming get a dual. If you running heavy specific applications that take advantage of quad and/or running alot programs at once then get quad core. The argument is as i said before they will be better of everything in a years time but they sure more software for quad and they be better quads. If you going to upgrade shortly again then get a dual. Games now take advantage of quad although not many. If you want to have fun later on and break the 4Ghz barrier then get a dual. If you keep waiting for the next cpu or board you never upgrade lol , best to get what you need for your requirements in the moment but sensible to wait until at least April on this occasion.

Here is a good guide on alot of the settings in the bios. On newer boards one or two settings wont be there but for the majority it be there.

http://www.techarp.com/freebog.aspx

and another

http://www.lostcircuits.com/advice/bios2/1.shtml

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> markymoo,

That 182 looks sick inside-like colored intestines! <-QUOTE}

yes i'm not into the red either. blue and greens would look alot better.

if you think thats sick pc take a look at this lol
http://www.watercoolinguk.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2288

{QUOTE->
Havent tried lapping,there seem to be many different opinions,but you would think Arctic Silver would fill in any irregularities just as well. <-QUOTE}

i done that easy mod and i reduced it by 6C. it pretty safe to do aslong as you smooth it off flat. it worth doing if you run your pc on air or the edge.

{QUOTE->
The trouble with quads seems to be that the really fast ones are really expensive. <-QUOTE}

yes but the 6700 will drop in price alot.The Xeon server 3210 is also another to consider. it really a higher quality Q6600 for the same price.

{QUOTE->
Think my next will still be a dual,possibly with watercooling (you just about talked me into it) then maybe a quad. <-QUOTE}

yes dual to put you on. once Nehalem come out it will all change again so if you plan to get that, it sensible not to spend alot money now.

{QUOTE->
Have you read any reviews about the DF mobo?Couldnt find any. <-QUOTE}

The only reviews have been forum reviews. You get a better opinion from experienced users comments on xtremesystems and others. http://www.overclock.net/intel-motherboards/287202-dfi-lanparty-dk-p35-t2rs-high.html It will do well over 500FSB. Any board that can do that means one thing quality and stabilty. Oskar Wu invented the BIOS who is a renowned overclocking guru. Its not a board i recommend for starting out (the Gigabyte BIOS is alot friendlier) as it's a complicated BIOS and take time to master but if you want a board to have alot use out of and tinker with over time and get very high overclocks. If you look at these BIOS settings you see what i mean.
http://forums.tweaktown.com/showpost.php?p=243231&postcount=11 The layout of the board is very good compared to others. I seen quad 3.6 Ultra Extreme on air and 4Ghz water with it. It just an amazing board for overclocking and it is now only slightly higher priced than a midrange board. I would recommend it for dual too it that good. One notable thing is the BIOS chip can be removed and replaced so if you get a corrupt BIOS flash you haven't ruined the board. It has also got the very high quality Realtek ALC885HD 8ch audio which is rated 102db SNR (signal to noise ratio) anything over a 100 can be used for professional use.

Here is review on the better DFI UT P35-T2R. http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3129 This will give you idea how good these boards are. It even comes with a seperate NB cooler.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> LOL, my case door is always shut anyways so I wouldn't have to look at the bright colors. I'm still a little disturbed anyways seeing all those pictures markymoo posted of people hacking up their P182's :'(. Water cooling isn't for the timid :blink:. I do like all the funky 'intestine' looking hoses though. I wonder if I can use a heater radiator out of a car? :blink: ;D :P . <-QUOTE}


Thats why if you get a case big enough you dont have to break out the toolbox and start cutting. On my current case the radiator just dropped straight in and 4 screws secure it. I didn't do any cutting like all that. The pump just stands on the floor of the case on 4 pads to make it silent. Yes you can use out of a car, it called a heater core but the temps wont be as good. It best to go for the most efficient radiator if the case is small. One of those Antecs had 3 radiators in there that was quite extreme, one would be sufficient without cutting. Some of those projects had too many t-pieces, twists and bends in the loop, thats not efficient for the best temps. The simpliest loop wins. Did you notice coils around the tubes? Its so they can bend the tube more without it kinking but doesnt look nice. It means they using too many bends than they should be for effiecient wc. Tube without coils gives it alot cleaner look. I am interested in watercooling projects that fit a big radiator into a smaller case...

I don't see any bright colours on that MSI board except for the bright ram sockets that will be covered up with ram.

{QUOTE->
As far as the BIOS flashing goes for the MSI, I read a couple of reviews about it and it seemed sorta tough. Maybe they weren't too bright either. If I have to do it from a USB flash drive or a floppy, I would be out of luck.
. <-QUOTE}

You be able to flash the BIOS from windows.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> markymoo,

Sounds like an absolute MUST for innerpeace!
<-QUOTE}

Yes, no complaints for the price.

a thread about it here
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=161618

and a user getting a 8400 to 4.3Gig with it.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=178944

{QUOTE->
Does that mean that if I don't have that version that I could flash the BIOS to make it compatible with the quads IF I get one?
<-QUOTE}

Quad support has been supported on that board from BIOS version 1.4 from September 2007. If you buy one now it will work with a quad right out of the box no flashing necessary. The BIOS to support 8400 came out in Febuary.

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

Well, if you achieved 6c drop with lapping,thats proof enough for me.

Strangely my temps have dropped for no reason also by about 7c,ambient about the same-but still reporting about 10c higher than normal.

All the good reading provided by you is very interesting.

That coloured computer looks like a vision from Hell!!

[innerpeace]

markymoo, Thanks for the good info on the wattage. Will my current 380w PSU run a stock Q6600 and the graphics card I have? I used the PSU calculator and it came to 300 watts. I'm a little worried that my gfx card might use a little more wattage since it's OC'd.

I did have a look at the water cooled rigs and noticed the hoses with the coils. I didn't care for them either. I also like the blue green color combo :thumb:. It seems to me that a lot of planning needs to take place with the parts on hand to make a nice looking and well functioning water cooled machine.

Newegg now has a plain (no heatsink) E8400 for $199. Prices are starting to fall :). I'm still going to hold out because I know I would kick myself in the butt if I wasted money because I was impatient. April 20th is less than a month away when the prices are supposed to drop. DFI also has the BLOOD IRON P35-T2RL MB for $119 with the same audio chip. It has good ratings also but doesn't have eSATA. I will also have a look at the BIOS links you have posted.

Edit: I just noticed something on the MB's. What are the 8 pin cpu power connectors for on some of the boards? My PSU only has a 4-pin cpu power connector.

Also, I separated my 24 pin ATX connector to a 20 pin to match what was installed in my current MB. Will I still be able to plug in the 4 pin and everything work fine in my next build? My guess is yes.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> markymoo,
Well if you achieved 6c drop with lapping,thats proof enough for me.
Strangely my temps have dropped for no reason also by about 7c,ambient about the same-but still reporting about 10c higher than normal.
<-QUOTE}

it will give a noticeable result. worth doing in my book. do you run it 3.4 all time? if so and you had those random temp reports and it kept stable that says alot right there. That DS4 board, is yours revision 1 or 2?


{QUOTE-> markymoo, Thanks for the good info on the wattage. Will my current 380w PSU run a stock Q6600 and the graphics card I have? I used the PSU calculator and it came to 300 watts. I'm a little worried that my gfx card might use a little more wattage since it's OC'd. <-QUOTE}

Yes i will guarantee lol. The Nvidia 8500GT will use approx 50W at maximum load and doesn't use external power and the 6600 will use 105W.

{QUOTE-> It seems to me that a lot of planning needs to take place with the parts on hand to make a nice looking and well functioning water cooled machine. <-QUOTE}

It takes abit planning. It can be daunting at first. I had a friend who was into it alot and been watercooling for 2 years so that helped. I did alot reading also. He didn't like it when i started beating his overclock though. Once you find a place to fit the radiator and get it screwed the rest is somewhat easier.

{QUOTE->
Newegg now has a plain (no heatsink) E8400 for $199. <-QUOTE}

That's the OEM version. If you going to use a different heatsink and fan to the Intel one then it makes sense to buy that. I don't recommend you buy that at this stage as you will have enough to do familarising yourself with Intel as you come from AMD. Fitting a third party heatsink fan cooler is a job in itself. It's upto you.

{QUOTE->
I just noticed something on the MB's. What are the 8 pin cpu power connectors for on some of the boards? My PSU only has a 4-pin cpu power connector. <-QUOTE}

On some newer PSU's now they have a 8 pin connector instead of a 4. You have the option of fitting a 4 or an 8. If the motherboard needs more power that connector will provide it. Normally you fit a 4 pin into the 4 nearest the cpu, this is adequate. More info with pics to explain all and lots of other good stuff on PSU's http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html#4into8

{QUOTE->
Also, I separated my 24 pin ATX connector to a 20 pin to match what was installed in my current MB. Will I still be able to plug in the 4 pin and everything work fine in my next build? My guess is yes. <-QUOTE}

You only need 20 pin as its an older board on the new board you buy you use 24. :thumb:

{QUOTE-> DFI also has the BLOOD IRON P35-T2RL MB for $119 with the same audio chip. It has good ratings also but doesn't have eSATA. I will also have a look at the BIOS links you have posted. <-QUOTE}

The Blood Iron is a superb board - great name too, its the little brother of the DFI Dark i be getting. Its $119 for the retail but $99 for just the board without extras. It the same as the Dark except for a few features less and not as powerful for overclocking. The Dark is only a few $ more. Not having the eSATA is not a problem, you can buy a eSATA backplate seperately and connect it to your internal SATA. You be ok with that board as long as you run it on the default BIOS and don't play with the ton of settings too much.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200111&Tpk=e-sata%2bplate
http://www.usb-ware.com/sata-dual-internal-esata-adapter.htm

In a few countries there hasn't been a reliable supplier for DFI. It only recently DFI have signed a contract for the Uk last month with a big supplier. DFI are always the last to bring out a board for a chipset but it sure will be great when they do. They seem to put more effort into there boards. It been very hard to get a DFI before now.

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

Yes I'm running 3.4 continuously,so that probably proves the temps must be OK.

An adjustment made was I decreased the internal middle 12" fan speed,as it seemed to be creating positive pressure-sucking a vortex from the external fan mounted directly in front.

This seems to have lowered the internal temps!!

Did you use glass as a paper backing board to lap or isnt it that critical?

In Oz,the only DFI board available is the BloodIron at A$195-00-we wuz robbed as usual!!

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Yes i will guarantee lol. The Nvidia 8500GT will use approx 50W at maximum load and doesn't use external power and the 6600 will use 105W. <-QUOTE}
Great, I'm good to go for now.
{QUOTE-> That's the OEM version. If you going to use a different heatsink and fan to the Intel one then it makes sense to buy that. I don't recommend you buy that at this stage as you will have enough to do familarising yourself with Intel as you come from AMD. Fitting a third party heatsink fan cooler is a job in itself. It's upto you. <-QUOTE}
I was toying with the idea of getting an OEM chip and fitting a decent heatsink. Someone mentioned the warranties might differ between the OEM and retail so I would need to look into that. I do understand that if I overclock later that the warranty is void.
{QUOTE-> On some newer PSU's now they have a 8 pin connector instead of a 4. You have the option of fitting a 4 or an 8. If the motherboard needs more power that connector will provide it. Normally you fit a 4 pin into the 4 nearest the cpu, this is adequate. More info with pics to explain all and lots of other good stuff on PSU's http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html#4into8 <-QUOTE}
Nice link 8). I see that the DFI MB's take 8 pin cpu connectors. I also see that the MSI MB we were looking at takes the 8 pin, but in the pics, there is a plastic thing blocking 4 of them. Maybe it's a hybrid... The sites says it takes an 8 pin though. I'm afraid I may end up having to get another PSU. The Gigabytes look like they take 4 pins.
{QUOTE-> The Blood Iron is a superb board - great name too, its the little brother of the DFI Dark i be getting. Its $119 for the retail but $99 for just the board without extras. It the same as the Dark except for a few features less and not as powerful for overclocking. The Dark is only a few $ more. Not having the eSATA is not a problem, you can buy a eSATA backplate seperately and connect it to your internal SATA. You be ok with that board as long as you run it on the default BIOS and don't play with the ton of settings too much. <-QUOTE}
I have an eSATA backplate, it came with my ext. HDD enclosure. I think the MB has to support eSATA hot swapping for it to be true eSATA. That's not a big deal, but it would be nice. It will work regardless. The DFI boards are getting really good reviews right now. I'm considering one because of it's potential later on if and when I decide to overclock and it's ratings.

What are some good PSU manufacturers besides Antec so I can keep my options open? Not good as in popular, but good as in good for the longevity of my system.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> markymoo,

Yes I'm running 3.4 continuously,so that probably proves the temps must be OK. An adjustment made was I decreased the internal middle 12" fan speed,as it seemed to be creating positive pressure-sucking a vortex from the external fan mounted directly in front. This seems to have lowered the internal temps!!
<-QUOTE}
:thumb::thumb::thumb:

{QUOTE-> Did you use glass as a paper backing board to lap or isnt it that critical? <-QUOTE}

Its not crucial. It ensures a good flat surface though, as long as you can find a flat surface.


{QUOTE->
In Oz,the only DFI board available is the BloodIron at A$195-00-we wuz robbed as usual!! <-QUOTE}

I suspected it be like that, few could get hold of one. Getting one in Europe was rare until now. DFI can't make them fast enough.

{QUOTE->
I was toying with the idea of getting an OEM chip and fitting a decent heatsink. Someone mentioned the warranties might differ between the OEM and retail so I would need to look into that. I do understand that if I overclock later that the warranty is void. <-QUOTE}

The warranty on OEM is just 30 days. Changing it from the default voltage does void it even when manuafacturers and retailers now welcome overclocking!

{QUOTE->
there is a plastic thing blocking 4 of them. <-QUOTE}

it just a plastic cap that can be removed. most PSU's have 4 pin. they all 8 pin with 4 blocked off.

{QUOTE->
I see that the DFI MB's take 8 pin cpu connectors. I also see that the MSI MB we were looking at takes the 8 pin, but in the pics, there is a plastic thing blocking 4 of them. Maybe it's a hybrid... The sites says it takes an 8 pin though. I'm afraid I may end up having to get another PSU. The Gigabytes look like they take 4 pins. <-QUOTE}

Good question. The concensus is plug the 4 pin into an 8pin and you be ok. it can only physically fit at one end. if the board requires more power it will use this. It be said 8 pin is for quad cores but that adapter was originally invented for servers. If the PSU is a good one and not into heavy overclocking using just 4 would be ok. If you going to be doing any heavy overclocking best to get a 8 pin otherwise a 4 pin will be enough. DFI exposed the 8 to encourage you to use 8 as it an enthusiast board that can overclock very high. Don't buy another PSU just use the 4. If you want to overclock later buy a PSU with a 8 pin connector and use it. I know alot just use 4pin and overclock very high but they will have a quality and ample watt PSU.

{QUOTE->

I have an eSATA backplate, it came with my ext. HDD enclosure. I think the MB has to support eSATA hot swapping for it to be true eSATA. <-QUOTE}

When you plug in the external drive does it come up as a removable device in your system tray? Apparently by using the new 15 pin SATA power connector instead of the molex connector it becomes hot swappable. They done away with the molex on new drives now. I think if it is enabled as AHCI in the BIOS then it works. You can turn any drive into a removable device. There is also this software Hotswap. http://mysite.verizon.net/kaakoon/hotswap/index_enu.htm So it not a problem if all else fails you plug the drive in and scan for new hardware

{QUOTE->
The SATA power connector has been designed so that the power pin can't possibly connect before the earth pin so there is no danger of destroying the drive while hot plugging. <-QUOTE}
{QUOTE->
What are some good PSU manufacturers besides Antec so I can keep my options open? Not good as in popular, but good as in good for the longevity of my system. <-QUOTE}

I dont know what you going to stick in your pc in future but I recommend and narrow it down to Corsair or Silverstone as the best decent PSU's to use. Cheaper PSUs that still good quality are Tagan, Hiper, Seasonic. I wouldn't consider anything else than that list. 600W is a good figure to go for unless massively overclocking a quadcore or using heavy SLI.
{QUOTE->
I was toying with the idea of getting an OEM chip and fitting a decent heatsink. <-QUOTE}

If you going to do that then i wouldn't bother going with anything less than an Thermalright IFX-14 or Ultra 120 extreme and Harry Coo maybe can help you out fitting it. Those are extreme coolers but very effective. If that too extreme then a Zalman CNPS9700 is still good. I may not be the best person to ask as i will always say go for the best as i am into watercooling for the lowest temps and that maybe more than you need, but if you going to get into overclocking later anyway then buying a decent air cooler now maybe smart move as the money you save on the OEM you can put towards a better cooler. To complement it you would need a decent PSU, otherwise the Intel stock heatsink, fan will be adequate to run at default speeds.

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,

yes,markymoo is right about the two Thermalright coolers.
I have the Ultra Extreme which cools the o/clocked e6600 to around 37c under normal load.
The new IFX-14 may be even better,but probably costs more-see review
here (http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=getarticle&articID=673)

Its not hard to fit as long as you are not squeamish about putting pressure on the clamping pins!

As regards an OEM chip,this wouldnt include the stock Intel cooler,which you wouldnt need in any case,if you bought a Thermalright.
The 30 day warranty hopefully would be sufficient,as computer hardware tends to break down quite soon if at all,in other words because of factory faults which should be quickly discovered.

Generally, regarding the pin connectors you may find all pins have to be used,otherwise the computer hardware such as fans will work,but the computer wont boot.

markymoo,

Using an eSATA bracket and the standard SATA plugs with a mobo not specified for eSATA,the drive isnt "hot swappable",in other words you have to start the external drive at boot time,for the drive to be recognised.
This doesnt worry me,but possibly if the drive was used a lot it would be a concern.

Regarding my cooling -the temps have gone down since I lowered the speed of the internal fan,which bears out the theory of negative pressure being optimal

Before lowering,I took off the case side and the temp went down-there was a build up of hot air which couldnt escape

[markymoo]

{QUOTE->

Using an eSATA bracket and the standard SATA plugs with a mobo not specified for eSATA,the drive isnt "hot swappable",in other words you have to start the external drive at boot time,for the drive to be recognised.
This doesnt worry me,but possibly if the drive was used a lot it would be a concern. <-QUOTE}

If you have AHCI or RAID enabled in the BIOS (which all good Intel boards have now) and you plug in the 15 pin power connector and then any SATA lead thats plugged into any SATA connector on the m/b while in windows the drive(s) becomes immediately available in windows to use. It doesn't need to be scanned for new hardware to find it's instant. It doesn't need to plugged in from boot. I have one SATA connector at the back of the m/b for this exact thing. It uses JMicron controller aside from the main intel SATA's. I don't load these JMicron drivers as they cause problems so it disabled but that would work too. It states in the manual for external SATA but you can just as well use another SATA. It might not be some patented eSATA controller. It works because AHCI is the main host controller for SATA that supports hotswap

No it wouldn't work if AHCI is disabled and/or using IDE instead which older motherboards pre 1996 don't have.

{QUOTE-> The Advanced Host Controller Interface (AHCI) is a hardware mechanism that allows software to communicate with Serial ATA (SATA) devices such as host bus adapters which are designed to offer features not offered by Parallel ATA (PATA) controllers besides higher speeds, such as hot-plugging and native command queuing. The specification details a system memory structure for computer hardware vendors in order to transfer data between system memory and the device. Many SATA controllers can enable AHCI either separately or in conjunction with RAID support. Intel recommends choosing RAID mode on their motherboards (which also enables AHCI) rather than the plain AHCI/SATA mode for maximum flexibility, due to the issues caused when the mode is switched once an operating system has already been installed.

Unlike PATA(IDE), both SATA and eSATA are designed to support hot-swapping. However, this feature requires proper support at the host, device (drive), and operating-system level. In general, all SATA/devices (drives) support hot-swapping (due to the requirements on the device-side), but requisite support is less common on SATA host adapters.

"Hot plugging is a feature of AHCI and it's supported by the chipset, the only problem is I don't know of any way to force the hard drive to dump its cache to platters. With nVidia chipsets, you can click the "safely remove hardware" icon in the system tray, but Intel doesn't support that. I looked in system properties, and "optimize for quick removal" is also greyed out.

What's worse, most ESATA controllers have the same problem. So go ahead and use the bracket, you'll have no worse problem than you would with "native" eSATA."
<-QUOTE}

The quote above is referring to if the drive was disconnected while in use. You can use the software Hotswap which safely removes devices. If write back cache was disabled on the external drive this would solve the cache problem.

Its not much trouble to install AHCI. You just enable AHCI in the BIOS and load the AHCI driver by pressing F6 on the XP setup.

and lets say that didn't work. I don't know if you aware but you can convert a fixed disk to a removable disk that is plug and play by changing the driver to a removal one. I used this method to convert a USB stick to a 'Fixed Disk' so i could format it as NTFS instead of FAT.

If you still not convinced go with the MSI board lol

{QUOTE->
Regarding my cooling -the temps have gone down since I lowered the speed of the internal fan,which bears out the theory of negative pressure being optimal. Before lowering,I took off the case side and the temp went down-there was a build up of hot air which couldnt escape <-QUOTE}

Great. To enhance the negative static pressure you meant to ideally block, close up any air holes and crevices in the case. The only air holes being the fan holes. More fans can ruin the flow and make the hot air go round and round instead of escaping.

If you do the cpu lapping best you get you temperatures displaying correctly beforehand or you won't know the temps difference before and after :).

{QUOTE->
I have an eSATA backplate, it came with my ext. HDD enclosure. <-QUOTE}

Yes but you told Hairy Coo that you keep the backplate on your existing pc so you transfer the external drive between the pcs that's why i suggested another :P .

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

Thanks for your reply about eSATA-you were correct-even though I was convinced AHCI was enabled,this was not the case at all!!

I have just tried to enable it without luck,it tries to install,then a BSOD,then a restart loop.

Do you have any ideas what is causing this?

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> The warranty on OEM is just 30 days. Changing it from the default voltage does void it even when manuafacturers and retailers now welcome overclocking! <-QUOTE}
:thumb:
{QUOTE-> Good question. The concensus is plug the 4 pin into an 8pin and you be ok. it can only physically fit at one end. if the board requires more power it will use this. It be said 8 pin is for quad cores but that adapter was originally invented for servers. If the PSU is a good one and not into heavy overclocking using just 4 would be ok. If you going to be doing any heavy overclocking best to get a 8 pin otherwise a 4 pin will be enough. DFI exposed the 8 to encourage you to use 8 as it an enthusiast board that can overclock very high. Don't buy another PSU just use the 4. If you want to overclock later buy a PSU with a 8 pin connector and use it. I know alot just use 4pin and overclock very high but they will have a quality and ample watt PSU. <-QUOTE}
I hope your right LOL. I think in the link you posted said it depends on the MB's requirement whether or not it need more voltage. I'm not saying your wrong, I just want to be 100% sure.
{QUOTE-> When you plug in the external drive does it come up as a removable device in your system tray? Apparently by using the new 15 pin SATA power connector instead of the molex connector it becomes hot swappable. They done away with the molex on new drives now. I think if it is enabled as AHCI in the BIOS then it works. You can turn any drive into a removable device. There is also this software Hotswap. http://mysite.verizon.net/kaakoon/hotswap/index_enu.htm So it not a problem if all else fails you plug the drive in and scan for new hardware <-QUOTE}
I'll have a look at the software. I may even opt to install the drive onboard, but I like the idea of not having it connected to protect from possible infections.
{QUOTE-> I dont know what you going to stick in your pc in future but I recommend and narrow it down to Corsair or Silverstone as the best decent PSU's to use. Cheaper PSUs that still good quality are Tagan, Hiper, Seasonic. I wouldn't consider anything else than that list. 600W is a good figure to go for unless massively overclocking a quadcore or using heavy SLI. <-QUOTE}
Thanks. I was glancing over the 80 plus certified PSU's last night. I will keep Corsair and Silverstone in mind.

{QUOTE-> yes,markymoo is right about the two Thermalright coolers.
I have the Ultra Extreme which cools the o/clocked e6600 to around 37c under normal load.
The new IFX-14 may be even better,but probably costs more-see review here <-QUOTE}
:thumb:
{QUOTE-> Its not hard to fit as long as you are not squeamish about putting pressure on the clamping pins!

As regards an OEM chip,this wouldnt include the stock Intel cooler,which you wouldnt need in any case,if you bought a Thermalright.
The 30 day warranty hopefully would be sufficient,as computer hardware tends to break down quite soon if at all,in other words because of factory faults which should be quickly discovered. <-QUOTE}
I've noticed that a lot of computer parts seem to involve putting pressure on them to install or uninstall. Also, what's up with right side installation panel on the P182's. Geez, it takes me 1/2 an hour to get the darn thing on all the way :-\.

I do understand that an OEM chip is just the chip and nothing else. If it's like $40-50 cheaper, I might as well get it and a decent heatsink. I'm sure the one's you and markymoo are suggesting are top notch. Now, if I could just talk you into installing it for me :P. I would also use AS5.
{QUOTE-> Generally, regarding the pin connectors you may find all pins have to be used,otherwise the computer hardware such as fans will work,but the computer wont boot. <-QUOTE}
That sounds like good news. Just as long as I don't fry any parts.

Antec shipped my fan on Monday and I received it Wednesday. I tried it out today before installing it and it didn't seem to vibrate like the other. I installed it on top and installed the old one up front for the time being. If the bearings are bad, it should hurt anything if falls apart. I also removed the upper hard drive cage so it wouldn't disturb the air. All 4 fan are on low and it's quiet. The humming noise from the old top fan is now gone (thank goodness). You were right Hairy Coo, Antec's customer service is great! :thumb:

[markymoo]

@Hairy Coo

Right, if you bought a hard drive that has NCQ feature then it won't be utilized until AHCI is enabled. This should give you a slight performance increase. It optimizes the received read and write commands which are sent.

The reason why it blue screens is because the XP AHCI driver is missing as you enabled it in the BIOS.

At least you find out now :).

Now there is a way to enable AHCI without reinstalling XP but i forgotten lol but i will find out. In the meantime...

You have to load the AHCI driver during setup the same way as a RAID or SCSI driver during XP setup by pressing F6 from a floppy. Your board uses Intel Matrix Raid Storage Controller so you can get the driver from here.

http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imsm/index.htm

If you ever want to intergrate the driver into the XP cd so you won't have to load the floppy again so it just run automatically from the cd with no prompt and load the AHCI then do this.

{QUOTE->
markymoo's F6 AHCI and RAID Slipstream Guide - for motherboards that use Intel Matrix Raid.

1. Download and install Microsoft .NET Framework
2. Download and install nLite - http://www.nliteos.com (http://www.nliteos.com/) (at time of writing version 1.3 RC2)
3. Create two new folders called XP and Intel
4. Explore your WinXP CD and copy the contents to your new XP folder
5. Get the latest Intel Matrix Storage Manager driver - http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imsm/index.htm (at time of writing iata621_enu.exe)
6. Run iata621_enu.exe but DO NOT click Next, instead browse to C:\WINDOWS\Temp\IIF\Winall\Driver and copy all 6 files to your new Intel folder.
7. When you have copied the 6 files cancel and exit the iata621_enu.exe installer
8. Run nLite
9. Select your language and click Next
10. Browse to and select your new XP folder and click Next
11. Ignore the Presets option and click Next
12. Select 'Drivers' then 'Bootable ISO' and click Next
13. Click 'Insert' then 'Single driver', browse to your new Intel folder and select iastor.inf
14. Hold CTRL and click the 2 ICH8R options so they are both highlighted then click OK
15. Click Next
16. Click Yes to start the process
17. Wait until you see 'Finished!' then click Next
18. In the 'Label' box type a name for your disc (I used WXPCORP_EN_P5B-D_RAID-AHCI)
19. Click 'Make ISO', name the ISO and then browse to where you would like to save it
20. Wait for 'ISO created successfully!'
21. Click Next to exit nLite
22. Use Nero Burning ROM (personal preference) to burn your newly created image to disc
23. Smash your floppy and poke F6 in the eye

*note - it might be different filenames for the intel drivers due to new drivers released.

<-QUOTE}

The guide alittle out of date it still work fine just highlight whatever AHCI and RAID chipset driver shows up at no.14.

{QUOTE-> A very interesting article about the features and possible benefits of AHCI mode, including comparisons of different drives, and if it might be faster or even slower for you: http://www.behardware.com/art/imprimer/624/
<-QUOTE}

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

Your very comprehensive answer is much appreciated

I'll go over it in detail and report back :thumb:

[markymoo]

@HairyCoo
I forgot to say AHCI is only a feature on ICH9R not ICH9 so have you got it?

Wow, It seems you can enable it for ICH9 as well as ICH9R :o

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace,

Good news about your fan!
The upper cage should be removed unless you are running the tandem fan setup.
Yes I was impressed by Antec service-no questions asked and efficient.
I also noticed the panels were occasionally difficult to fit,other times easy-seemed to depend on what mood I was in!
The back and front of course are different.
Be careful you dont knock the panel into place too violently while the computer is running-once destroyed a hard disk because of this.
Both side panels are interchangeable,at least on the 180.
Certainly will help fit the cooler -have the dog sled meet me at the airport,
I'll bring my american slingshot to drive away the polar bears and seals ;D
Any pack ice up there?
Actually it would be worth while lapping the faces of the cpu and cooler as markymoo mentioned,before installing.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> @HairyCoo
I forgot to say AHCI is only a feature on ICH9R not ICH9 so have you got it?

Wow, It seems you can enable it for ICH9 as well as ICH9R :o <-QUOTE}

markymoo

have the 965 chipset!!

[markymoo]

oh you have the 965 chipset i got it down you had the DS4 P35. it's talking about P35 all time...Fine ok. First have you got AHCI listed in your BIOS or not. If not then do not try this solution. Of course! Here is a solution to enable AHCI without reinstalling XP. I strongly suggest you take a backup image of your system drive before trying this.

AHCI (Advanced Host Controller Interface) is present on newer Intel chipsets such as 975X (ICH7), P965 ( ICH8 ), and P35 (ICH9). AHCI mode is enabled in the BIOS and 3 settings are commonly available: IDE, AHCI, and RAID. The last two (AHCI and RAID) require a driver floppy and the F6 method when installing Windows XP otherwise the hard disks won't be detected.

AHCI mode brings 3 main advantages:

Supports NCQ (Native Command Queuing) allowing SATA drives to accept more than one command at a time and dynamically reorder the commands for maximum efficiency.
Supports hot plugging of devices
Supports staggered spin ups of multiple hard drives at boot time
However, in the real world the performance difference isn't huge.

The problem is that if you installed Windows in IDE mode (ie you didn't use F6 and supply a driver disk), then simply changing the BIOS setting to AHCI mode and rebooting will cause Windows to fail and will require a repair install. Most people have been advising to reinstall Windows if you want AHCI enabled.

1. Go to Intel's download centre and download the latest version of the Intel Matrix Storage Manager.

http://downloadcenter.intel.com/Prod...=2101&lang=eng (http://downloadcenter.intel.com/Product_Filter.aspx?ProductID=2101&lang=eng)

Keep this file as you'll need it again in step 4.

2. Run the installer with the -a switch to extract the files. This will NOT install the software, just extract the files. Follow the prompts as if you were installing the software:

Code:
iata76_enu.exe -a

The above should extract the files to \Program Files\Intel\Intel Matrix Storage Manager. There are two folders, \Drivers and \Drivers64 for 32-bit and 64-bit OS's, respectively.

Copy the file IaStor.sys from the Drivers folder to C:\Windows\System32\drivers\

3. copy the one of the following relevent registry files to your desktop (copy and paste into notepad) and save as ahci.reg

965 and 975 chipset registry file

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Control\CriticalDeviceDatabase\pci#ven_8086&dev_2821&cc_0106]
"Service"="iaStor"
"ClassGUID"="{4D36E96A-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\iaStor]
"Type"=dword:00000001
"Start"=dword:00000000
"Group"="SCSI miniport"
"ErrorControl"=dword:00000001
"ImagePath"="system32\\drivers\\iaStor.sys"
"tag"=dword:00000019
"DisplayName"="Intel AHCI Controller"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\iaStor\Parameters]
"queuePriorityEnable"=dword:00000000

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\iaStor\Enum]
"0"="PCI\\VEN_8086&DEV_2821&SUBSYS_B0051458&REV_02\\3&13c0b0c5&0&FA"
"Count"=dword:00000001
"NextInstance"=dword:00000001


P35 ICH9R and ICH9 chipset registry file


Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Control\CriticalDeviceDatabase\pci#ven_8086&dev_2922&cc_0106]
"Service"="iaStor"
"ClassGUID"="{4D36E96A-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\iaStor]
"Type"=dword:00000001
"Start"=dword:00000000
"Group"="SCSI miniport"
"ErrorControl"=dword:00000001
"ImagePath"="system32\\drivers\\iaStor.sys"
"tag"=dword:00000019
"DisplayName"="Intel AHCI Controller"

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\iaStor\Parameters]
"queuePriorityEnable"=dword:00000000

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\iaStor\Enum]
"0"="PCI\\VEN_8086&DEV_2922&SUBSYS_B0051458&REV_02\\3&13c0b0c5&0&FA"
"Count"=dword:00000001
"NextInstance"=dword:00000001


4. Double check you've copied the IaStor.sys file as part of step 2. Now do the following:

Run the ahci.reg file to add the entries into the registry
Reboot the computer and enter the BIOS - DO NOT allow it to start Windows yet.
Change the setting for the on board Intel controller to AHCI, save and exit BIOS
Boot into Windows
When Windows loads it will detect a new hard disk - cancel the wizard for installing the new hardware and run the Intel driver installer you downloaded in step 1.

Reboot the system

Now, under Device Manager > IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers you should see Intel(R) ICH8 or ICH9 SATA AHCI chipset Controller listed.

Go to Device Manager, Double Click your hard drive(s) under "Disk Drivers", go to "Policies" Tab and mark "Enable write caching for this disk"

Finished

Vista Solution
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/922976

[innerpeace]

Hairy Coo,

Thanks, I'm very pleased with Antec :). They didn't give me a bit of trouble.

My left side panel with the thumbscrews is simple to attach. The other one gives me fits. I'm fairly gentle with it so that may be the problem. I was going to leave the cage in place, but the temps weren't quite right so I removed it and it helped some. The test will come trying to balance airflow while gaming.

I'll also send the dog sled, but the dogs might get upset without any snow :P. It's now spring here and normal high's this time of year are around 15C. It did snow for Easter though :dry:.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE->

I hope your right LOL. I think in the link you posted said it depends on the MB's requirement whether or not it need more voltage. I'm not saying your wrong, I just want to be 100% sure. <-QUOTE}

i'm know i'm right. i wouldn't suggest doing something like that unless i'm sure. i know it sounds risky if you new to it. do you know why i'm right? because the manual says so! LOL

{QUOTE-> Your power supply unit may come with an 8-pin or 4-pin +12V
power connector. The +12V power enables the delivery of more
+12VDC current to the processor’s Voltage Regulator Module
(VRM). If available, it is preferable to use the 8-pin power; otherwise
connect a 4-pin power connector. <-QUOTE}

now you can breath easy ;)

{QUOTE->
I'll have a look at the software. I may even opt to install the drive onboard, but I like the idea of not having it connected to protect from possible infections. <-QUOTE}

it not necessary if you enable AHCI in the BIOS and load the AHCI driver when you install XP. the software won't be needed. i was just over emphasizing a point. it will work fine on SATA drives but it wont work on IDE drives.

{QUOTE->

Thanks. I was glancing over the 80 plus certified PSU's last night. I will keep Corsair and Silverstone in mind. <-QUOTE}

I suggest this PSU - Comes with 5 year guarantee. pricey but quality,
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139001

{QUOTE-> The system board requires a minimum of 300 Watt power supply
to operate. Your system configuration (CPU power, amount of
memory, add-in cards, peripherals, etc.) may exceed the minimum
power requirement. To ensure that adequate power is provided, we
strongly recommend that you use a minimum of 400 Watt (or
greater) power supply <-QUOTE}

{QUOTE->
I do understand that an OEM chip is just the chip and nothing else. If it's like $40-50 cheaper, I might as well get it and a decent heatsink. I'm sure the one's you and markymoo are suggesting are top notch. Now, if I could just talk you into installing it for me :P. I would also use AS5. <-QUOTE}

The advantage if you fit a 3rd party cooler now , you won't have to remove your board again in the future to fit it. :thumb:
{QUOTE->
Antec shipped my fan on Monday and I received it Wednesday. I tried it out today before installing it and it didn't seem to vibrate like the other. I installed it on top and installed the old one up front for the time being. If the bearings are bad, it should hurt anything if falls apart. I also removed the upper hard drive cage so it wouldn't disturb the air. All 4 fan are on low and it's quiet. The humming noise from the old top fan is now gone (thank goodness). <-QUOTE}

:thumb::thumb::thumb::isay:

[innerpeace]

Thanks markymoo, I'm breathing easier now LOL.

I was just reading a post (http://www.eggxpert.com/forums/permalink/293569/294587/ShowThread.aspx#294587) about rails and looking at this PSU.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139004

I see the HX you suggested is greater than the VX series though. What are your thoughts on the number of rails or did the above link cover it?

You do make a good point about fitting a 3rd party heatsink now rather than later being more convenient :thumb:.

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

Ran the-a switch,
but the install says-
"computer does not meet minimum requirements for installing this software"
Could this be because of SP3?
Does the Intel Chipset Software Installation Utility have to be installed?
If there are any further problems,may use markymoo's F6 AHCI and RAID Slipstream System,for when I next slipstream the final version of SP3 as a repair install

[markymoo]

@Hairy Coo

Yes the Intel Chipset Software has to be installed before. You should always do that anyway. It will work fine on SP3.

Download the Chip ID Util for 965 here.
http://downloadcenter.intel.com/Product_Filter.aspx?ProductID=816

There is a alternative way than using -a

If you do this instead which is part of the method for slipstreaming into the cd. It's also on the motherboard cd under floppy but this way ensures you have the latest drivers.

Run iata78_enu.exe but DO NOT click Next, instead browse to C:\WINDOWS\Temp\IIF\Winall\Driver and you see IaStor.sys. Copy all the files to a safe location to use in future. The IaStor.sys file will be there. When you have copied the files cancel and exit the iata78_enu.exe installer.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> What are your thoughts on the number of rails?
<-QUOTE}

The VX series is just as good for cheaper. It might even be quieter. The HX is a modular PSU which cost more but i prefer as i can unscrew each PSU connector and is tidier. You lose a tiny amount of effiency using modular as some of the current is lost through the connectors. The HX is claimed as 3 rails over 50A but its just 2. They still top PSU's. The Vx has 41A and the HX has 50A so both enough.

It's alot hype from the time SLI came out. You only have to concern yourself with the +12V as the +3.3 and +5V add up to 10% of the power used. You better off with a single rail PSU. On a multiple rail PSU If you use a maximum of lets say 10Amps on a 18A rail then if the system needs more power on the other rails it can't use the spare 8A, that's a waste right there which can be critical on a lower PSU. That EarthWatt 380 is claimed as 2 rails but it's actually 1 rail. In the end you will have a total of 31 34 Amps. Look at your PSU label on Total Power under +12V and divide it by 12 to get the total amps. I think it 17Amps per rail but check this.

Watts = Amps x Volts
Amps = Watts / Volts

So for example a Q6600 at 105W would use 8.5A but it will be less like 90 as the voltage drops in windows on idle. So as long as you don't overload each rail you be ok. It good to look at how much can be supplied on each rail. It good to look for higher amps. A decent PSU should provide 18A per rail. Nvidia recommend 22-26A for there 8800GT so if you have 30A on the combined rails that be enough but that wouldn't leave much for the rest of the components. There are some good quality true multiple rails that make claims that if you get a power spike, fault on one rail it will only damage the parts on that one rail and not damage the whole system. Don't add lots of components to one PSU connection. It wise to seperate components like hard drives on a seperate PSU connector.

Here's another PSU calculator
http://web.aanet.com.au/SnooP/psucalc.php

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

Unfortunately that driver isnt in the Temp files-also did a complete search!

I'll just try to slipstream on the next SP3 install as mentioned, but even that looks doubtful the way its going.


Will do some more checks.

Thanks for your great help!!

edit; a local seller of DFIx48 mobo -(1.00 AUD = 0.916590 USD ) here (http://fluidtek.com.au/)
And this guy is a well known discounter-wish Newegg would start up locally at US prices!!

[innerpeace]

markymoo,

Thanks for the PSU information. Both of the Corsair models look good :thumb:.

A pic of my Antec PSU sticker can be found here. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?CurImage=17-371-005-04.jpg&Image=17-371-005-02.jpg%2c17-371-005-03.jpg%2c17-371-005-04.jpg%2c17-371-005-05.jpg%2c17-371-005-06.jpg%2c17-371-005-07.jpg%2c17-371-005-08.jpg&S7ImageFlag=0&WaterMark=1&Item=N82E16817371005&Depa=1&Description=Antec+earthwatts+EA380+380W+Power+Supply)
You might have to click on it to see it larger. It's the 3rd picture going left to right. The description also says this. "Dual 12V outputs: 12V2 for Motherboard and peripherals; 12V1 for processor".

[markymoo]

{QUOTE->

Unfortunately that driver isnt in the Temp files-also did a complete search!
<-QUOTE}

Well, if you didn't run the install but just dbl clicked the setup file so the blue screen is still showing they will be there.

{QUOTE->
a local seller of DFIx48 mobo -(1.00 AUD = 0.916590 USD ) here (http://fluidtek.com.au/)
And this guy is a well known discounter-wish Newegg would start up locally at US prices!! <-QUOTE}

Great. Is it any cheaper to buy it from a neighbouring country and pay shipping and tax ? edit: is the cost worth it for parts you can't get in your own country...

The Xigmatek HDT-S1283 air cooler in some reviews is giving better temps or equal to the Ulta-120 Extreme and it's alot cheaper.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE->

A pic of my Antec PSU sticker can be found here. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?CurImage=17-371-005-04.jpg&Image=17-371-005-02.jpg%2c17-371-005-03.jpg%2c17-371-005-04.jpg%2c17-371-005-05.jpg%2c17-371-005-06.jpg%2c17-371-005-07.jpg%2c17-371-005-08.jpg&S7ImageFlag=0&WaterMark=1&Item=N82E16817371005&Depa=1&Description=Antec+earthwatts+EA380+380W+Power+Supply)
You might have to click on it to see it larger. It's the 3rd picture going left to right. The description also says this. "Dual 12V outputs: 12V2 for Motherboard and peripherals; 12V1 for processor". <-QUOTE}

Your link took me straight to it. 2 rails of 17A each. 17A + 17A = 34A x 12V = 408W / 80% effiency = 324W usable power on the +12V.

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo,

As my computer does not meet the standards etc for some reason-that is the message in the Temp file-nothing else, so the first step of the install obviously didnt even put the driver in the temp because of this.

Sometimes the price differences for computer parts here are extreme-but once an item has been well established,the prices are more reasonable,sometimes downright cheap-so generally its not worth the time and effort to bring them in from the States.
Its only a comparitively small market.:'(

[markymoo]

Hairy Coo

I'm running SP3 v3311 and the temps are all now making sense. Maybe you can try using VirtualPc or VirtualBox and install XP that way that or get another XP on there If you want the files in the setup i can post them.

I notice good thing about that top air hole in the Antec is the TR Ultra-120 Extreme can be mounted, aligned 90 degrees alternatively to the way the fan blows out the back, so the fan can blow out the top for the hot air to escape. The NB heatsink can be tall on some boards and can get in the way preventing, mounting so the fan is blowing out the back.

[markymoo]

Something to bear in mind...

There is no performance gains whatsoever in using DDR2 1000mhz opposed to 800mhz 667mhz 533mhz in everyday use only in benchmark tests but what it will do is get to your needed FSB for overclocking. If you overclocking a new Intel 8000 series cpu to 4gig or beyond then you have to have at least 445FSB, which is at least 890Mhz on the memory. This means with DDR2 800 you would have to overclock it, which some might struggle to do this. It best you get the value/performance G.Skill 1000 which gives you the oppurtunity to goto 500FSB without it being overclocked and no strain. Don't buy Crucial Ballistix 1066 memory being raved about this has had problems working right or alot gone faulty. I used to use Corsair but in my opinion G.Skill are better. 2 x 2Gb put's less strain on your system than 4 x 1Gb...

List of actual memory chips used on branded DDR2 memory. The best ones to get and give the most overclock are Powerchips or Micron D9GMH. Those G.Skill use Powerchips.http://ramlist.ath.cx/ddr2/

Track memory prices here.
http://www.dramexchange.com/

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> markymoo,

Both of the Corsair models look good :thumb:.

<-QUOTE}

This is a good PSU and for the money. Ignore the 2 reviews.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817128012

This is a good PSU but not as good as the Corsair and it's no cheaper.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371002

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Your link took me straight to it. 2 rails of 17A each. 17A + 17A = 34A x 12V = 408W / 80% effiency = 324W usable power on the +12V. <-QUOTE}
So, 324W/12A = 27A of usable amperage? Would the 27A be divided by 2 for each rail (13.5A) or is it one rail like you said above? It still should power my next setup fine shouldn't it (not overclocking)?

{QUOTE-> There is no performance gains whatsoever in using DDR2 1000mhz opposed to 800mhz 667mhz 533mhz in everyday use only in benchmark tests but what it will do is get to your needed FSB for overclocking. If you overclocking a new Intel 8000 series cpu to 4gig or beyond then you have to have at least 445FSB, which is at least 890Mhz on the memory. This means with DDR2 800 you would have to overclock it, which some might struggle to do this. It best you get the value/performance G.Skill 1000 which gives you the oppurtunity to goto 500FSB without it being overclocked and no strain. Don't buy Crucial Ballistix 1066 memory being raved about this has had problems working right or alot gone faulty. I used to use Corsair but in my opinion G.Skill are better. 2 x 2Gb put's less strain on your system than 4 x 1Gb...

List of actual memory chips used on branded DDR2 memory. The best ones to get and give the most overclock are Powerchips or Micron D9GMH. The G.Skill use Powerchips.http://ramlist.ath.cx/ddr2/

Track memory prices here.
http://www.dramexchange.com/ <-QUOTE}
Thank you for your advice on this :). Hopefully the good price on the G.Skill 1000 will continue into April. That is the Ram that I will probably get unless something better is offered. I didn't know about the memory chip brands. The link and the Powerchips/Micron D9GMH advice will come in handy if I choose to go with something else. Nice find markymoo :thumb:.

{QUOTE-> This is a good PSU and for the money. Ignore the 2 reviews.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817128012

This is a good PSU but not as good as the Corsair and it's no cheaper.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817371002 <-QUOTE}
What do you know about the Hiper brand? I have no problem with getting a Corsair or Antec if I get a PSU.

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE-> Hairy Coo

I'm running SP3 v3311 and the temps are all now making sense. Maybe you can try using VirtualPc or VirtualBox and install XP that way that or get another XP on there If you want the files in the setup i can post them.

I notice good thing about that top air hole in the Antec is the TR Ultra-120 Extreme can be mounted, aligned 90 degrees alternatively to the way the fan blows out the back, so the fan can blow out the top for the hot air to escape. The NB heatsink can be tall on some boards and can get in the way preventing, mounting so the fan is blowing out the back. <-QUOTE}

Thanks for your kind help-do you have a separate file set up to correct the temp fault-otherwise I intend to carry out a repair install of the final SP3,which hopefully may correct the problems.?

Excellent idea regarding the mounting direction for the fan.

ATM the CPU fan is blowing the air towards the back fan,so it should be exhausting reasonably well.
Also it looks like the memory,right next to the Ultra,would stop turning it around.

Anyway,you certainly are taking a lot of trouble with your advice and research-which should prove very useful for others apart from Innerpeace,in building a computer and generally-myself of course included!

[Hairy Coo]

Innerpeace-

Getting towards the final decision time, quite exciting,you will have a top system,excellent components:thumb:

I have an Antec PSU,so can verify that they are problem free and quiet,but as markymoo said,Corsair seem to be a bit better.
Dont forget buying those new SATA connectors with the right angled heads at the time.
Is your new fan cooling OK?
Generally I found the low settings were whisper quiet,but medium were necessary for optimum cooling.

[innerpeace]

Hi Hairy Coo,

Yes, it's very exciting. Everything is narrowed down to a few great components. I'm still up in the air as far as a processor though. Pricing will decide a lot of it. I know that an E8200 would be more than enough for me and I think the only difference between it and the E8400 is a little speed and the multiplier which I read is important when overclocking. If I could get the E8200 to 3GHz economically (with my current PSU and E8200 stock cooler), I would be happy.

The quad is also tempting, but the price would have to be the same or very close to the E8400. I'm also very open to the idea and would probably prefer the Xeon equivalent to all 3. I like to be different and they may be a tab bit better in quality.

Regarding the fan, I actually removed it yesterday because I'm not sure it helped. I was using the top, rear and front fans on low. After an extended play on Battlefront, my temps were almost the same as using my old case with the side off. I'm sure medium settings would be better, but it is noticeably louder. I also wish I had a remote control rather than crawling around flipping fan switches LOL. I may also need to block off all the cracks and crevices if it would help. I'm also debating if I should tape up the vented PCI blanks though they might help with the gfx card cooling.

Was your CPU power plug long enough to fit behind the MB? My current Antec PSU's plug isn't long enough and I was considering an extension like this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812198005) or these (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812162006). However, I don't like the idea of using an extension for such a critical connection.

Edit: spelling

[Hairy Coo]

{QUOTE->

Regarding the fan, I actually removed it yesterday because I'm not sure it helped. I was using the top, rear and front fans on low. After an extended play on Battlefront, my temps were almost the same as using my old case with the side off. I'm sure medium settings would be better, but it is noticeably louder. I also wish I had a remote control rather than crawling around flipping fan switches LOL. I may also need to block off all the cracks and crevices if it would help. I'm also debating if I should tape up the vented PCI blanks though they might help with the gfx card cooling.

Was your CPU power plug long enough to fit behind the MB? My current Antec PSU's plug isn't long enough and I was considering an extension like this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812198005) or these (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812162006). However, I don't like the idea of using an extension for such a critical connection. <-QUOTE}

Innerpeace,

I also found as I said that the temps weren't fantastic on low settings,but improved considerably on medium.
Personally found the noise was quite moderate on low,certainly compared to my previous case
Think that the top fan really is needed -its important for exhausting the hot air and maintaining negative pressure,which I proved to myself does work.
Dont really think blocking anything off on the case would be worthwhile-purely extremely marginal.
On the P182 ,there are external fan controls on the rear panel for the top and rear fans in the upper chamber -would just leave them on medium or you could experiment on high if the fans are quiet enough.
Of course what will help somewhat is when you get a super CPU cooler and a new cooler running CPU.
If you really are not happy you can try fitting that middle interior fan we discussed before,that certainly kept the interior and the graphics card cooler for me.
In my P180 case, the PSU cables run direct,there is no provision for hiding them behind the right side.
I should imagine the current PSUs may have longer cabling,especially the Antec range-you could try to find out beforehand,but those extension cables look plenty sturdy enough.

regarding the CPU,the e8200 looks good-it seems to be a replacement for my e6600,but in fact will overclock more.
here (http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6429&Itemid=40)
Guess it depends how much you are prepared to spend and how long before the next upgrade after this one-of course the main question is , shouldnt you get a quad core which markymoo favours.

[markymoo]

{QUOTE-> So, 324W/12A = 27A of usable amperage? Would the 27A be divided by 2 for each rail (13.5A) or is it one rail like you said above? It still should power my next setup fine shouldn't it (not overclocking)? What do you know about the Hiper brand? I have no problem with getting a Corsair or Antec if I get a PSU. <-QUOTE}

Thats right, but in reality it's only 1 rail of 27A which works out better not the false 2 claimed. If you buy a decent PSU like the Corsair then you don't have to concern yourself too much with this anyway. It parts like graphic cards that uses external power that consume alot which yours isn't. Forget the Hiper! its' not the model i had in mind, it's claiming 580W but only 380W on the +12V rail which is very low. The other 200W is for the +3 +5. My bad. I used Hiper no problems, still a good PSU but that one just too low. It the Corsair or nothing. No better PSU under $100 than the Corsair. The Corsair 550W VX pumps out 492W on the +12V, very efficient and clean power. Good to see you getting the Corsair! It comes with a 5 year guarantee which is excellent. That says alot right there.

These are useful.
http://www.ambientweather.com/p3inkiwaelus.html

{QUOTE->
Thank you for your advice on this . Hopefully the good price on the G.Skill 1000 will continue into April. That is the Ram that I will probably get unless something better is offered. I didn't know about the memory chip brands. The link and the Powerchips/Micron D9GMH advice will come in handy if I choose to go with something else. Nice find markymoo . <-QUOTE}

Yeah Top Info! D9GKX are also good but need alot more voltage to perform. What will happen as DDR3 goes mainstream DDR2 will start going up but wont be for a while yet. Example my motherboard has only dropped a 1/6th of it's price since 2006 which is excellent but it's because the 965 chipset is less popular but still worthy with lots of features. The newer chipsets are cheaper.

@Hairy Coo
It wont make much of temp difference turnng the heatsink but more for when you can mount a bigger heatsink on the NB. Strapping a 120mm fan to the NB is an effectivev way to cool it try that! A good measure if you can't hold your finger on the NB heatsink for 3-4 seconds then it's too hot and so need to do better cooling.

My own experiences and been researching alot lately as i been out of it and getting reacquainted, plus 4 hours reading forum posts, sharing the good info not just from one source. Asus quality control doesn't seem as good these days and Gigbayte the same. Asus technical support is not got a good reputation but they great at bringing out lots of updated BIOS which is opposite of Abit. I mention customers have been duped $350 false advertising for the Gigsabyte GA-N680SLI-DQ6 with the capability to run Quad Core but no it can't. Gigabyte tells the users to send a picture of the box that says the board supports quad-cores lol....The DFI boards just have more going for them. Waiting delivery :). The layouts are better especially for watercooling. There hasn't been anything revolutionary in the last 2 years while away from watercooling. We seem to be at the peak of flow rates and design. It just more pumps and more radiators now.


@Innerpeace the debate goes on...
Type e8400 vs q6600 into Google.

[Hairy Coo]

markymoo

Yes,at this stage,when I do the next update on the hardware,will probably carry out all these mods for the cooling!

Thanks for the AHCI drivers,but unfortunately it was impossible to import the AHCI reg. file into the registry " some keys are open by other processes etc",which may mean I would have to slipstream the lot on the next install-anyway I now have all the files and info!:thumb:

Strange tale about gigabyte DQ6??? Seems the way,when companies grow too big,they lose control if they arent careful.

edit; great about the DFI board,which model did you settle on,still the Dark?-should help the q6600 o/clock!!
How is SP3?

[innerpeace]

Hairy Coo,

Thanks for your reply and the link. I'm Sorry about the confusing info on my fans. My case comes factory with a lower chamber fan and the top and rear fans. I tried adding the old, vibrating fan in the front, upper chamber position behind the filter but it didn't really seem to help on low speed. I've removed it for now.

My desk sits diagonal to a corner so I think the sound get bounced around to me which may cause the medium fan speeds to sound a bit louder. My desk also only has 4 inches of clearance above the case which probably doesn't help with the noise either. When the fans are on low, I could almost swear that I can hear the cpu fan over the others. I guess the sound doesn't matter as all I wanted was a cooler machine which is more important. And from what I have been reading, you are right, the new 8000 series chips will be cooler.

I also forgot your case doesn't have the feature to hide the wires behind the MB :wacko:. I'm must be getting burnt out on hardware LOL.

[Hairy Coo]

innerpeace
by now you are a real hardware fanatic!
I also found the internal middle fan seemed louder than the others for some reason,but if there is no advantage ATM it may be worth considering later with a quiet fan.Low speed is a fairly useless setting generally.
Found I was also listening to every sound initially,but certainly in my case ,figured the case was quieter than most,so I forgot about it and now its just subdued grey noise which doesnt bother!

[innerpeace]

{QUOTE-> Thats right, but in reality it's only 1 rail of 27A which works out better not the false 2 claimed. If you buy a decent PSU like the Corsair then you don't have to concern yourself too much with this anyway. It parts like graphic cards that uses external power that consume alot which yours isn't. Forget the Hiper! its' not the model i had in mind, it's claiming 580W but only 380W on the +12V rail which is very low. The other 200W is for the +3 +5. My bad. I used Hiper no problems, still a good PSU but that one just too low. It the Corsair or nothing. No better PSU under $100 than the Corsair. The Corsair 550W VX pumps out 492W on the +12V, very efficient and clean power. Good to see you getting the Corsair! It comes with a 5 year guarantee which is excellent. That says alot right there.

Yeah Top Info! D9GKX are also good but need alot more voltage to perform. What will happen as DDR3 goes mainstream DDR2 will start going up but wont be for a while yet. Example my motherboard has only dropped a 1/6th of it's price since 2006 which is excellent but it's because the 965 chipset is less popular but still worthy with lots of features. The newer chipsets are cheaper. <-QUOTE}
Thanks markymoo! I'm glad to see I got the 27A part right. Your a pretty good teacher. I'll also avoid the Hiper and stick with either Corsair or Antec. My build budget is getting tight because I didn't really plan on a new PSU. I can always get it later and stick with the essentials (CPU, MB, RAM and OS). It will also be interesting to see what the prices on all components will do this month.

{QUOTE-> @Innerpeace the debate goes on...
Type e8400 vs q6600 into Google. <-QUOTE}
LOL, yes I've seen many discussions. I guess it all boils down to price, availability, how you use your computer and energy consumption. The newer quads and more software taking advantage of multiple cores will eventually end the debate though.

It's also good to hear your new DFI board is on the way. Can't wait to hear your thoughts :).

[markymoo]

{QUOTE->

Thanks for the AHCI drivers,but unfortunately it was impossible to import the AHCI reg. file into the registry " some keys are open by other processes etc",which may mean I would have to slipstream the lot on the next install-anyway I now have all the files and info!:thumb: <-QUOTE}

Ok after all that this could be an easier way.

1. Go into the BIOS and enable the JMicron Controller (if not already enabled) and also change the system SATA drive to IDE which probably is already. ;D

2. Boot into windows and install the JMicron driver. You should find this on the motherboard cd or get the newest from here.
http://www.giga-byte.com/Support/Motherboard/Driver_DownloadFile.aspx?FileType=Driver&FileID=2733

3. Shutdown PC, open the case and move the boot drive to the Gigabyte SATA 2 Controller (a re-badged JMicron JMB363) It's the 2 purple connectors. The 6 yellow are the Intel ICH8R.

4. Start machine and enable AHCI in the BIOS for the Intel Controller.

5. Boot into windows. Install Intel iata78_enu.exe driver.
http://downloadcenter.intel.com/Product_Filter.aspx?ProductID=2101&lang=eng

6. Shutdown machine, Go into BIOS, Disable JMicron Controller again (or leave it enabled if you like).

7. Open PC and move the system drive back to original intel SATA (now with AHCI enabled).

8. Boot into windows.

9. Uninstall the JMicron driver.