UK Govt. spies on US citizens (and others)

[Checkout]

David Blunkett, Home Secretary, has climbed down on permitting 'extended' agencies from accessing your email and telephone records. Hurrah. This means that the Post Office, Municipal Parks, McDonalds and other interested agencies may not have access to whom you communicate with. Hurrah.

It is also a tacit admission that the UK government records this information.

It further implies that you, dear Americans, Germans, French, Canadians, Senegalese and everyone else whose electronic communications happen to be routed through or to the UK, are being violated by the UK, which has no regard whatsoever for the privacy of its citizens or anyone else's.

Is anyone else really p!ssed off about this?

[Prince_Serendip]

I've known about this for a long time. Most big countries and a lot of large corporations are interested in trading information on what their citizens are doing on a regular basis. Before there was an Internet and the only computers were the oldstyle mainframes telephones in North America and across the Pond were being monitored for specific word groupings of a politically volatile nature. It was allowed as part of the Cold War between USA, USSR and China. They may still be doing this, I would not doubt it.

You've noticed all the politically motivated interest groups of late that want to regulate the Internet? The Internet scares them because it can be so anonymous. It allows 100's of millions of people to interact and exchange information just about any way they prefer with most of that completely unregulated nor controlled. All these people are praticing whatever they do with almost complete freedom and anonymity. It can be incredibly beautiful, mundane or ugly as the case may be. True freedom is a toughy. A primary struggle throughout human history has been over how decisions are made and by whom. This is an ongoing process. I would say that the Internet, because it is so large, magnifies the proportions of any and all human activities, for better or for worse. Consequently, there are many countries, groups, and private companies all vying for control of it, or at least parts of it. The Internet actively promotes globalization. By its very essence it crosses all territorial boundaries and limitations, bringing many different people together in a way that has never been done before in all of human history! It brings with it, in its infancy, all of the problems of the human condition as well.

I strongly dislike countries spying on their own and others citizens. In the democratic countries it is incumbent on the citizens to monitor and regulate the actions of their governments. Sometimes that is lost sight of, but is important nonetheless. I would suggest that most of the methods of the Cold War have been carried over from the past to deal with international terrorists and their sympathizers. It is up to the many individuals to strive to maintain their freedoms, lest they be robbed of same!

To be honest, I am not here interested in expressing a political dialectic. This is not the purpose for my writing here. I am interested in expressing my views about maintaining and promoting security, safety and well-being on or off the Internet. How that is accomplished is an activity which involves us all. (Hang in there!) ;D ;)

[Checkout]

Please allow me to proffer a scenario:

You send an email to someone in a politically Draconian country. That country deems you have violated its laws, and on their soil, and attempts to extradite you for trial.

It all becomes horribly real at that point.

[controler]

Checkout?

Dang ,,, are you telling me now I should not have downloaded this free
copy of PC-Cillin From this UK site? Even after writting them and telling them not to use my IP address or e-mail address? I am a sucker for software LOL

http://www.transaction-one.com/gs/html/gs/f2/en/products.jsp?sfid=16650&pubid=746

[Prince_Serendip]

Hi Checkout! What are the laws for e-mails? Are they similar to those of our Postal/"snail" Mail? I sincerely doubt that free-world countries would permit the extradition, as you suggest in your scenario. We (our countries) are not required to respect their laws while we are at home. We got our own laws. Their jurisdiction does not extend beyond their geographic boundaries. Geopolitical boundaries cannot claim territories based on electrical connections. That would be absurd. However, though they may be unable to do anything about you or me--what about the poor sap living in their own country? His "goose could be cooked!" ;)

[snowy]

may want to read:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/25757.html



snowy

[Checkout]

I can cite one example of laws extending beyond national boundaries - Salman Rushdie, sentenced to death by Iran for "Satanic Verses" which was written and published in the UK. Something similar could easily be published on the Net.

While I think of it, there are no copyright laws in Saudi Arabia. Are you breaking the law if you set up a website inside its borders and republish copyrighted materials?

[Prince_Serendip]

Quote from Checkout
-{ Quote: "I can cite one example of laws extending beyond national boundaries - Salman Rushdie, sentenced to death by Iran for "Satanic Verses" which was written and published in the UK. Something similar could easily be published on the Net." }-

He's the "poor sap." I gather he was an Iranian citizen? He's safe in exile if he applies for political asylum and later becomes a Brit citizen? Maybe he should have published it on the Net? Sounds like an Iranian "gag" law. I suppose they have lots of those. Did they extradite him?

I'm glad I do not live in the 2nd nor 3rd world countries. I am very thankful for that.

[Prince_Serendip]

Thank you to snowy. :) However, I've already read the article. I read the Vulture Register! As far as I can tell they are looking at what benefits the common EU citizen rather than helping multinational corporations.

Still keep an ear to the ground!

[Checkout]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Prince_Serendip link=board=27;threadid=1982;start=0#14445 date=1024923969]He's the "poor sap." I gather he was an Iranian citizen? He's safe in exile if he applies for political asylum and later becomes a Brit citizen? Maybe he should have published it on the Net? Sounds like an Iranian "gag" law. I suppose they have lots of those. Did they extradite him?" }-
Rushdie was already a UK citizen. Iran's sentence was death, to be levied by all Islamic faithful, anytime, anywhere. Rushdie still lives in hiding.

[Prince_Serendip]

That's really rough! :o Iran's order is against their own faith. Of course they probably have a different interpretation. I doubt that their God will take that into account at their judgement! They do not decide for Him! (I took the time in the past to study that.)

[controler]

I still hold my breath waiting to see how the USA is going to deal with
Iran in the next couple years.
Iraq then Iran or vise versa?
Will nukes be used?
We can only do so much politicaly.

[FanJ]

Without wanting to hurt anyone and no offence meaning (please be assured of that), may I kindly ask to not start religious discussion.

[controler]

Sorry my part was political not religious.

"a place to hang out, where (almost) anything goes..
Moderators: FanJ, spy1, wizard, Technodrome, JacK"

Please restate the heading for TEN-FORWARD

Where (almost) reads NO religious or political statements allowed.

[Checkout]

-{ Quote: " quoting: FanJ link=board=27;threadid=1982;start=0#14476 date=1024938237]
Without wanting to hurt anyone and no offence meaning (please be assured of that), may I kindly ask to not start religious discussion.
" }-
I totally agree. I don't think it's heading that way, though - these are simply examples of how globalisation is utterly incompatible with regionalisation. It may be, one day, that there will be several Internets in order to cope with doctrine and politics.

Say, is anybody scared yet? No? Read this (http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/te/6847/1.html) then, and see how a 'civilised' State uses the power it grants itself.

[FanJ]

-{ Quote: " quoting: controler link=board=27;threadid=1982;start=0#14478 date=1024939380]
Sorry my part was political not religious.

"a place to hang out, where (almost) anything goes..
Moderators: FanJ, spy1, wizard, Technodrome, JacK"

Please restate the heading for TEN-FORWARD

Where (almost) reads NO religious or political statements allowed.
" }-

Hi Controler,

Please let me again assure everyone that I didn't want to hurt any of you!!!
I thought it was a good idea to post that about religious discussion in general here.
If I was wrong, sorry.
And as always: final decision is up to Paul W.

[Prince_Serendip]

FanJ, Checkout and everyone else here,

I was not attempting to discuss religion here. I was merely pointing out that what Iran has done with Salman Rushdie is deeply wrong even according to the basis of their own beliefs. I was making a point in a discussion. Nothing more. I am not here to incite riot. If you take it that I have, I deeply apologize and will avoid the subject in the future.

[controler]

No problem here :D

[FanJ]

Thanks Prince, Controler, Checkout.

Prince, I'm sure you didn't want to "incite riot" (oops, I had to look in my dictionary :-[). I trust you all very much !

[John Little]

No, I'm not back to posting here except for this ONE exception. I'm glad to see a little more tolerance to posts about politics. This stuff is important, much of it relates directly to security and privacy as Checkout has done a great job of showing (in the UK). I hope some of you will remember my posts were sounding the same alarm about the USA - before I was "kindly" asked to refrain from discussing these issues. But, as you see, sometimes it logically leads in the direction of the loss of civil liberties period. Keep up the good work Checkout!

John Little

[John Little]

Sorry. One more post.

I forgot to say that I miss many of you - Checkout, Unicron, Spy1, Root, Detox, Controler, Snowman... ahhh....the list is long.

Hope all is well with all of you.

John Little

[Prince_Serendip]

:) Thanks FanJ! I will attempt to be more circumspect in future about what I put in my posts. I hope my vocabulary gets you to check your dictionary more often. Hee, hee, hee! Experience is one of the best teachers.

[Checkout]

-{ Quote: " quoting: John Little link=board=27;threadid=1982;start=15#14518 date=1024981680]I forgot to say that I miss many of you - Checkout, Unicron, Spy1, Root, Detox, Controler, Snowman... ahhh....the list is long." }-
Miss? Why? You're a resident, John! Help yourself to a beer from Paul's refrigerator and make yourself a sandwhich. Then we'll chat awy until the moon waxes and wanes.

[Paul Wilders]

-{ Quote: "You're a resident, John! Help yourself to a beer from Paul's refrigerator and make yourself a sandwhich." }-

Amen to that - take a sixpack if you want to, John ;)

To all: this is a security/privacy board in the first place - not a political or religious one. We surely want to keep it that way.

That being said, on ocassion security, privacy, politics and possible religion will meet. As long as there is a direct connection, anyone is free to post about it. Purely political or religious threads on the other hand do not belong to this board.

regards.

paul