deepfreeze VS shadow defender

[demoneye]

HI ALL :)
its my first post in here but i aint new to this world.

i have been tested booth deepfreeze and this shadow defender...both do the same job ...

maybe is deepfreeze is little better by protecting the bios/cmos from malware what SD doesnt....

i am very intersting to see what u guys have to say about booth retail progy (not thoos beta like Sandboxie , Returnil crap)

cheers:thumb:

[ErikAlbert]

DeepFreeze, ShadowDefender, Returnil recover a complete system partition.
Sandboxie doesn't do that, at least not the system partition, Sandboxie works per application.

The terminated FDISR is years ahead regarding possibilities and variation in usage. None of these other ISR-softwares can level with ex-FDISR.
So my choice at this moment is very easy : FDISR as long as possible.

I install an ISR-software for its features, functions, possibilities, because I'm a USER. Security softwares are supposed to protect ISR-softwares.
Immediate System Recovery isn't security. I never saw an ISR-software, that recognizes malware.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "HI ALL :)
its my first post in here but i aint new to this world.

i have been tested booth deepfreeze and this shadow defender...both do the same job ...

maybe is deepfreeze is little better by protecting the bios/cmos from malware what SD doesnt....

i am very intersting to see what u guys have to say about booth retail progy (not thoos beta like Sandboxie , Returnil crap)

cheers:thumb:" }-

Eh, There are current "retail" versions of both Sandboxie and Returnil, and neither of them are crap. Both are used by people here and well respected.

[demoneye]

peter : i meant thoos progy are beta... and i talk on final cost $$ progy , not on thoos un finish...:dry:

[trjam]

Sandboxie is one of the best softwares ever created. I would put its importance up there with that software Erik likes.:D

Returnil and Shadow Defender have both good and bad points depending on what your needs are. I would take either of these over Deep Freeze, but that is just me.

The future for Returnil looks very promising, great support here with coldmoon. Returnil has the ability to evolve into, who knows, I think the potential is unlimited.

Shadow Defender is looking promising and if some added features actually pan out, it will make it a "really" interesting product. Support has just started to appear on a consistent basis, so we will see long term.

So, you will have to decide, hope that answers your question. And I really dont know much about Deep Freeze to really comment on it. Good company though.

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "peter : i meant thoos progy are beta... and i talk on final cost $$ progy , not on thoos un finish...:dry:" }-
Beta ? Sandboxie and Returnil have both a final version.

[ErikAlbert]

I use Sandboxie mainly to lock my data partition, when I start surfing on the internet with Firefox and Sandboxie really locks my data partition, which has been tested by Peter.
I call softwares "crap", when they don't do their job as advertised.

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "i am very intersting to see what u guys have to say about booth retail progy" }-One way to compare these two program, as well as some others, is to look at how the vendor positions them. That says a lot concerning their underlying designs.

Deep Freeze is designed to keep a system static with changes treated as an exceptional event handled via a deliberate thaw of the frozen system. Frozen/thawed states are on a drive/partition basis. Deep Freeze requires Windows 95/98/Me/2000/XP/Vista. Restarts cause an immediate rollback to the frozen state, unless entry into a thawed state has been previously selected. So, primarily static/restart based rollback/infrequent changes. Enterprise level administration is also possible from a centralized console.

Shadow Defender can be run in a mode akin to Deep Freeze in which it always recovers the initial state on a restart and you employ a password protected entry into shadow mode. ShadowDefender can be installed on Windows 2000/XP/Vista systems. As with DF, shadowing is on a drive/partition basis. The main difference in these two applications is that ShadowDefender treats shadowing/freezing as more of a dynamic state. While DF type functionality can be created, other scenarios are possible. In other words, you decide at some point in time to dynamically enter a shadow session without a restart and the system state, as you've defined it at that point, will be frozen until you exit shadow mode via restart. You could also restart into a fresh shadow session starting at the initial point of that shadow session. One other aspect of the dynamic nature of this state is that you can commit changes that have occurred from within the shadowed/frozen session. So, primarily dynamic/restart based rollback with in session commits possible/allows frequent system changes. This application does not have enterprise level administration.

I'd also say that their target markets are very different with DF positioned for the institutional market where centralized administration and preservation of a well defined and very infrequently altered system state is highly desired while Shadow Defender is really the style of program best suited for the home market on standalone workstations.

Blue

[Long View]

I use DeepFreeze on some machines and the crap free version of Returnil on another. Is there a crap free version of Shadow defender that I could try ?
can Shadow defender be installed on one machine and then later on another ( unlike Powershadow). From what I've read there is not enough difference between any of these programs to say one is best with different small features being the deciding factor.

[trjam]

there is a 30 day trial. Yes you can install it on more then one. There are 2 major differences. With SD you can designate specific files or folders to save info to so it is not blown away on reboot. Returnils beta, wich the more advance version will also have a cost, will also do this, but not the current free version. Also if you will check past threads, SD has withstood some really bad nasties that the current and beta version of Returnil could not.

[Long View]

Thanks - will give SD a go

A laptop user would presumably find the specific file option useful but for a desk based machine ? much better to have 2 separate drives - one for OS/programs and one for data.

A program that has withstood an attack is clearly better but of little importance really. (1) Programs which fail this time will no doubt catch up (2) it is unlikely that one program will stay ahead of the curve (3) The chances of getting hit by any of these nasties is small (4) If hit an image and a little effort and all would be well again.

It's going to be interesting to see how these competitors product differentiate.

[trjam]

SD has 2 distinctive features. Before going into Shadowmode, you can specify, as I said, files or folders to not be virtualizied. But even in Shadowmode, lets say you decide to create a document or need to make a change. You can do it, then use the "commit now" feature to a file or folder,and your change will be saved.

There are other enhancements planned by the vendor, but I personally feel at this point SD is ahead of the market in this area. Will it stay that way, only time will tell.

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "
A program that has withstood an attack is clearly better but of little importance really. (1) Programs which fail this time will no doubt catch up (2) it is unlikely that one program will stay ahead of the curve (3) The chances of getting hit by any of these nasties is small (4) If hit an image and a little effort and all would be well again.
" }-
I agree with this one.
An ISR-software without protection against low level harddisk changes, which will never or hardly happen, is not a valid reason for me to replace it.
ShadowProtect will save my e-skin in such almost non-existing situations : bye-bye KillDisk and Robodog. :)

[Perman]

Hi,

Sandbox/virtualization concepts are not new to this cyberworld, and their apps all roll out with different and perhaps their own reasons. When it is time for me to choose one, the one that perhaps can protect my interests for a long, solid times, we would look into these areas:

How long has this app been around ?
Has it encountered its ups and downs yet ?
How is its after-sale support ? after your Mooney has been sucked into them.
Who is the developer of this app ? and how is his financial resources to sustain business cycle of ups and downs ?

After reviewing these above mentioned, I would choose DeepFreeze, or DeepFreeze Standard.

Take care.

[trjam]

all vaild points to help a person choose.:) I think most would also apply to Returnil. SD has some ground to make up to ever get to where your criteria would apply. Only the vendor can accomplish that, not anyone here, not even the fanboy.::)

[EASTER]

-{ Quote: "One way to compare these two program, as well as some others, is to look at how the vendor positions them. That says a lot concerning their underlying designs." }-

Indeed, the vendors set stage for their selected respective target audience/market.

-{ Quote: "I'd also say that their target markets are very different with DF positioned for the institutional market where centralized administration and preservation of a well defined and very infrequently altered system state is highly desired while Shadow Defender is really the style of program best suited for the home market on standalone workstations.

Blue" }-

Really good point and one often overlooked. Knee-jerk decisions often take precendence in the majority of users looking to add the "institutional" levels to their non-institutional systems simply because the mind-set is easily made that it is a better equipped protection over say home units.

SandboxIE, DF, ShadowDefender, etc. and so forth, they each are very uniquely fashioned to address particular fields of protection to the windows machine in different ways that make them all attractive.

The program most regarded in the end always will be the one that will serve to as many of the needs that the user desires for safety with the chief determining factor being STABILITY=COMPATIBILITY with the individual or institutional users other commonly used component softwares.

[demoneye]

HI YO:ouch:

welp i read all your great posts in here...but u all miss 1 abilty of deep freeze which is very important ....

DEEP FREEZE protect your BIOS/CMOS not like SD and other beta (yes beta peter acording to there web sites).

when u uses such progy and u leave a cmos/bios hack open like sd...what the point? i think all other progy like this sandboxie kiddo progy and Returnil are the same...unsecure...

cheers:-*

[ErikAlbert]

How can I protect BIOS/CMOS without using DeepFreeze ?

[demoneye]

hi YO

ErikAlbert with any good AV mate.

what i try to point all this poll is to the main point of NOT using any AV like i am not ;D

i use deep freeze more tha a 6 months , no HEAVY ANOYING av install...deep freeze also PROTECT the bios/cmos area not like other progy of his kind.;)

[EASTER]

How stable is Deep Freeze? I often read horror stories in the past when it came to uninstalling it and users resorted to reformatting to remove it completely.
Of course i'm assuming any user of DF is going to be satisfied and content with leaving it on the PC indefinitely. And what about when upgrade time comes? Or what if a hardware or $M internal issue crops up distorting the normal useage of DF.

My question to follow Eric's, how safe is Deep Freeze's BIOS/CMOS feature and would it create more of a problem then it was designed to cover in event of some unfortunate mishap.

Any records or reports on these things?

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "hi YO

ErikAlbert with any good AV mate.

what i try to point all this poll is to the main point of NOT using any AV like i am not ;D

i use deep freeze more tha a 6 months , no HEAVY ANOYING av install...deep freeze also PROTECT the bios/cmos area not like other progy of his kind.;)" }-
I do the same : frozen snapshot, no scanners, but my bios/cmos isn't protected by FDISR. I ran all good scanners, they didn't detect anything but false positives.
But bios/cmos is still a problem and I'm not going to ditch FDISR.

[lucas1985]

Deep Freeze doesn't protect the CMOS/BIOS

[demoneye]

hi all

lucas1985 DF does protect bios/cmos from and axx by malware... i read its manual.

for u EASTER DF is stable more than win xp mate....i install /uninstall it lots of time testing other prgy like him.

DF is for big big company and install in my country all over big universty and some other GOV places....so RESPECT !! :-*

[Perman]

Hi,

Installing/uninstalling DF standard is as easy as ABC, all can be done within one minute. You need the original installation file to perform this task, no other way, moreover, it is password protected.

When upgrade is available, just uninstall old and install new one, no problems.

DF is very stable, very easy with most security apps I know of.

Those who have complained about horrible encounters are likely the ones try to manipulate DF. DF's configurations are straight forward. I can not image the days w/0 DF. I just do not feel safe going on Internet w/0 DF.

[EASTER]

-{ Quote: "hi all

lucas1985 DF does protect bios/cmos from and axx by malware... i read its manual.

for u EASTER DF is stable more than win xp mate....i install /uninstall it lots of time testing other prgy like him.

DF is for big big company and install in my country all over big universty and some other GOV places....so RESPECT !! :-*" }-

Thats all well and understood but my questions remain unanswered, many apps are more stable than XP mate, even Power Shadow ;D

I was curious to "known" past or present issues reported, if there are none fine, but always any software can experience problems, some more than others, especially when they are designed for Maximum Deep coverage.

[Long View]

The DeepFreeze manual claims " The Windows Registry, the computer CMOS and the boot sector are protected by Deep Freeze from within Windows." but I can find no reference to BIOS - but this would be password protected anyway so is there a problem ?

[Rmus]

-{ Quote: "How stable is Deep Freeze? I often read horror stories in the past when it came to uninstalling it and users resorted to reformatting to remove it completely. " }-Hello, Easter,

I've used Deep Freeze for almost three years and have uninstalled/reinstalled many times without a problem.

In following up on "mishaps" reported by users, I've found that they fall into two categories,

1) conflict with a program on user's computer, which DF suppport is more than happy to help resolve

2) tinkering with DF in DOS, which DF support is not willing to resolve

-{ Quote: " Or what if a hardware or $M internal issue crops up distorting the normal useage of DF. " }-This can happen with any program. See 1) above

-{ Quote: "
My question to follow Eric's, how safe is Deep Freeze's BIOS/CMOS feature and would it create more of a problem then it was designed to cover in event of some unfortunate mishap. Any records or reports on these things?" }-Over the years, I've corresponded with Faronics support with many questions, to which they have promptly responded.

While I've not tested DF in the way others have, I'm going to eventually have a DF page on my website which will include specific information about rootkits, CMOS,. MBR, etc.

Here are a few thoughts which will later be included with other stuff.

http://www.urs2.net/rsj/computing/tests/DF/

----
rich

[ErikAlbert]

CIH-virus doesn't affect winXP.
http://securityresponse1.symantec.com/sarc/sarc.nsf/html/cih.html

[EASTER]

-{ Quote: "Hello, Easter,

I've used Deep Freeze for almost three years and have uninstalled/reinstalled many times without a problem.

In following up on "mishaps" reported by users, I've found that they fall into two categories,

1) conflict with a program on user's computer, which DF suppport is more than happy to help resolve

2) tinkering with DF in DOS, which DF support is not willing to resolve

This can happen with any program. See 1) above

Over the years, I've corresponded with Faronics support with many questions, to which they have promptly responded.

While I've not tested DF in the way others have, I'm going to eventually have a DF page on my website which will include specific information about rootkits, CMOS,. MBR, etc.

Here are a few thoughts which will later be included with other stuff.

http://www.urs2.net/rsj/computing/tests/DF/

----
rich" }-

Thanks Rmus for putting those concerns to bed. LoL

Looking forward to reading those articles when they're completed too.

I really couldn't see how far off the mark Faronic's would be seeing how i have their Anti-Executable and although not on the level as their Deep Freeze, i have never had a single problem with it.

[demoneye]

HI
just you 2 know....SD=713 kb and DF= 4 mb.... :)

welp deep freeze make a hiden partition while SD doesnt...

cheers;D

[shaunwang]

-{ Quote: "HI
just you 2 know....SD=713 kb and DF= 4 mb.... :)

welp deep freeze make a hiden partition while SD doesnt...

cheers;D" }-

Eh I am a ex DeepFreeze user...

It happen to me alot of time when I get lockdown totally into an infinitely freeze... no system tray icon to shut it down , even pressing hotkeys does not work. Only solution reformat put back a well freeze image and then uninstall deepfreeze in thaw mode.

"just you 2 know....SD=713 kb and DF= 4 mb.... :) " LOL look into your C:\ do u see DF files there I remember seeing a 15mb loaded on C:\ and its visble...

Try deleting that using Linux and probably you get an infinite loop freeze.

SD= 713kb only do not count its image virtual files.... DF 4mb + 15mb that 15 mb supposed to do what I have no idea. but deleting it will cause a direct lock down.

After SD apperance my heart went towards it.... instead of DF............

cheers
shaun

Wish All of the people here Happy New Year 2008

[demoneye]

-{ Quote: "Eh I am a ex DeepFreeze user...

It happen to me alot of time when I get lockdown totally into an infinitely freeze... no system tray icon to shut it down , even pressing hotkeys does not work. Only solution reformat put back a well freeze image and then uninstall deepfreeze in thaw mode.

"just you 2 know....SD=713 kb and DF= 4 mb.... :) " LOL look into your C:\ do u see DF files there I remember seeing a 15mb loaded on C:\ and its visble...

Try deleting that using Linux and probably you get an infinite loop freeze.

SD= 713kb only do not count its image virtual files.... DF 4mb + 15mb that 15 mb supposed to do what I have no idea. but deleting it will cause a direct lock down.

After SD apperance my heart went towards it.... instead of DF............

cheers
shaun

Wish All of the people here Happy New Year 2008" }-


welp mate i use it for couple of moths.... 0 problame...oww yeha and one other thing...why should i mess arouund dele DF files using linix loooolll;D

[Peter2150]

Just retested Deepfreeze to compare with Shadow Defender. It does protect both disks, which is good. Passed Killdisk, and several other virus'. The POC discussed in another thread brought it down.

But it lacks much of the flexibility of SD. Have to reboot to freeze, no commit, and no exclusions.

[demoneye]

-{ Quote: "Just retested Deepfreeze to compare with Shadow Defender. It does protect both disks, which is good. Passed Killdisk, and several other virus'. The POC discussed in another thread brought it down.

But it lacks much of the flexibility of SD. Have to reboot to freeze, no commit, and no exclusions." }-

welp like i said before Peter2150 . DP is for pro users,who want to realy secure there pc no kiddie play with it ! SD is for home users more flexibility (which deliver back doors such as robodog whos kiiled eraly ver of SD)

so SALUT to your daddy (DF) :D

cheers;)

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "welp like i said before Peter2150 . DP is for pro users,who want to realy secure there pc no kiddie play with it ! SD is for home users more flexibility (which deliver back doors such as robodog whos kiiled eraly ver of SD)

so SALUT to your daddy (DF) :D

cheers;)" }-

We mixing up in two threads. I agree with that DF is for pro users, but the threat that SD just closed is still open in DF. What I was talking about is the threat being discussed in this thread (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=195340). Initially SD failed it, but it has been fixed. I just tested DF against it and DF failed. That is a separate issue from features, and should be just as much a concern to pro users. If the machine got infected by a real malware of that type it would be wiped out. No reboot. Disk is trashed.

[Cerxes]

-{ Quote: "We mixing up in two threads. I agree with that DF is for pro users, but the threat that SD just closed is still open in DF. What I was talking about is the threat being discussed in this thread (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=195340). Initially SD failed it, but it has been fixed. I just tested DF against it and DF failed. That is a separate issue from features, and should be just as much a concern to pro users. If the machine got infected by a real malware of that type it would be wiped out. No reboot. Disk is trashed." }-
Since I´m not an user of virtualization software (except Sandboxie), I was just wondering Pete, if one of these viruses infects a file/folder that you have excluded in SD, does that mean that it will infect the hole disk = trashing the disk?

/C.

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "welp like i said before Peter2150 . DP is for pro users,who want to realy secure there pc no kiddie play with it ! SD is for home users more flexibility (which deliver back doors such as robodog whos kiiled eraly ver of SD)

so SALUT to your daddy (DF) :D

cheers;)" }-
DF might be the most professional, it's also the most painful ISR-software to work with on a home computer.
DF always requires a reboot to activate frozen or thawed mode, that is alot of reboots.

Like all the other similar ISR-softwares, DeepFreeze is not a total ISR-solution
and that's why DF needs more support of IB-software to cover the situations, it can't handle.

If I would use SD in practice, I would install Anti-Executable to protect me against robodog.exe and if that doesn't work, ShadowProtect will do the job.
There will always be a malware that finds a way to destroy any kind of ISR-software, including DF.
After all you tried only ONE malware, not the existing rest and not the ones in the future.
In theory no ISR-software is safe and IB will safe you, in case ISR fails and it's up to you to have that image ready, if that ever happens.

Cheers too :)

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "Since I´m not an user of virtualization software (except Sandboxie), I was just wondering Pete, if one of these viruses infects a file/folder that you have excluded in SD, does that mean that it will infect the hole disk = trashing the disk?

/C." }-

I can't answer for sure, as I suspect it would defend on the folder excluded and the infection. On my test desktop, I usually don't exclude anything as I have it on to protect the whole machine while I work in the vm machine.

Pete

[Long View]

I have 2 machines with DeepFreeze running in the way that it was originally designed to run - that is on all the time except when making changes. I think far too much is being made of the need to reboot to freeze. One machine is used exclusively for video work and the last thing I would want, having set it up the way I want it, is for something to change. So DeepFreeze is always on. every few weeks I unfreeze and make updates and refreeze. Perhaps the problem here says more about the lives of typical Wilders Users - constantly tinkering and trying out the latest ? I would have thought that for many ( my wife and sons included) Deepfreeze with protection on all the time ( with me as controlling admin) was ideal.

The fact that xyz caused DF to fail in the past or that abc will cause it to fail next week is of minor importance. A game is played between the bad guys and the good and the only programs that have never failed are those that have only just been developed or those that have little or no market penetration. If a product becomes successful it will be attached and broken.The interesting thing is how the developer reacts

[ErikAlbert]

I never evaluate software, based on my personal or someone else's usage, I prefer the analytical and logical approach.

The fact remains that DeepFreeze is not a total ISR-solution and that means more support of IB to backup your system partition as a precaution, when something goes wrong during the reboot, while the frozen mode is disabled.
The fact that users take or don't take that precaution is a personal decision. A smart user doesn't take that risk and does a backup before he tries such a software.

A backup of a system partition can be short, if the user separated system and data, if he didn't, it can be a very large system partition, dependent on how much data he stored on his system partition.
It won't be very practical if the backup takes a long time, just to test a software that requires a reboot.

The total ISR-solution is dead, I hope RollbackRx can do the job, but I never tested RollbackRx myself. The backup/restore of RBRx ITSELF is a very unpractical solution according HDS, but that has nothing to do with this problem :
-{ Quote: "If you are restoring a Disk image, you must first uninstall Rollback. Therefore, when you refresh a disk from an archive, neither the Rollback product nor any of the snapshots are restored. You must re-install Rollback and strike a new baseline.

This is true for all archiving program, including the Rollback's own archiver. Archiving is done on a file by file basis, to permit a disk images to be mapped back onto an unlike disk (in case of hard disk failure). Rollback works at a sector level; its snapshots cannot be mapped under these circumstances." }-

[demoneye]

hi all

welp ErikAlbert i must say that u somehow get it all wrong...there is NO total protection for hardware failure...only if u are using RAID5 MIRROR or simller.

my point is , OS on drive c:\ after fdisk it to lets says 20 giga and put on it basic data like office (not its files *.doc *xls etc) winrar . some players...etc...

all other important DATA (like movies ; mp3s) on other drive like d:\

so ... when C:\ under DF protection ... this is the ULTIMATE solution for runing your box for life (till hd get bad sectores or what ever hardware problem).

so DF and SD are the BEST isr in the all world , in reboot u got your system up and running

cheers :thumb:

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "hi all

welp ErikAlbert i must say that u somehow get it all wrong...there is NO total protection for hardware failure...only if u are using RAID5 MIRROR or simller.

my point is , OS on drive c:\ after fdisk it to lets says 20 giga and put on it basic data like office (not its files *.doc *xls etc) winrar . some players...etc...

all other important DATA (like movies ; mp3s) on other drive like d:\

so ... when C:\ under DF protection ... this is the ULTIMATE solution for runing your box for life (till hd get bad sectores or what ever hardware problem).

so DF and SD are the BEST isr in the all world , in reboot u got your system up and running

cheers :thumb:" }-

It is indeed the ultimate solution...... FOR YOU, but not for everyone. Your ultimate wouldn't work for me, it it wouldn't be ultimate, but wouldn't even work.

[Long View]

@ ErikAlbert - The Thread here is deepfreeze vs shadow defender. It would be helpful if we could keep to the thread and not deviate to discuss Rollback and its weaknesses

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "The total ISR-solution is dead, I hope RollbackRx can do the job, but I never tested RollbackRx myself. The backup/restore of RBRx ITSELF is a very unpractical solution according HDS, but that has nothing to do with this problem :" }-Erik,

Neither the "total ISR-solution", nor RollbackRx are the subject of the current thread.

That said, there are plenty of solutions out there, one's that can be as effective as your currently preferred one in a global sense. Better at some steps, less effective at others, but globally as effective. It's all in the logistical settings and implementation.

Now let's get back on topic - DF/SD/and the like.

Blue

[demoneye]

hi again

Peter2150 what is your GREAT AWESOME solution mate:) ?

will be happy to compare thrm both ;D

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "hi all

welp ErikAlbert i must say that u somehow get it all wrong...there is NO total protection for hardware failure...only if u are using RAID5 MIRROR or simller.
" }-
I'm NOT talking about hardware failure, I'm talking about a corrupted system partition.

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "hi again

Peter2150 what is your GREAT AWESOME solution mate:) ?

will be happy to compare thrm both ;D" }-
Another solution is : test all your software in a VM machine.

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "Erik,

Neither the "total ISR-solution", nor RollbackRx are the subject of the current thread.

That said, there are plenty of solutions out there, one's that can be as effective as your currently preferred one in a global sense. Better at some steps, less effective at others, but globally as effective. It's all in the logistical settings and implementation.

Now let's get back on topic - DF/SD/and the like.

Blue" }-
I don't see any solutions from you, just talk. If you have an army of PC's than it doesn't matter, but I have only ONE machine.

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "I don't see any solutions from you, just talk." }-I use Windows Home Server, but I don't infect every thread on the planet with it. It's not appropriate for a single machine setting, but it's a very cost effective solution for a multi-PC home.

However, WHS is also neither DF or SD, which are the topic of this thread. I use the latter, but not in the context that you seem to try to force fit almost any solution or discussion of solutions.

Blue

[demoneye]

-{ Quote: "I'm NOT talking about hardware failure, I'm talking about a corrupted system partition." }-

what are u saying can be protect by DF very good acording to there home site.

and anoter point... instaling DF doesnt say u give up your antivirus which protect the total system (and yess the partition/mbr) + DF , give you the ultimate protection you desire

cheers:-*

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "I use Windows Home Server, but I don't infect every thread on the planet with it. It's not appropriate for a single machine setting, but it's a very cost effective solution for a multi-PC home.

However, WHS is also neither DF or SD, which are the topic of this thread. I use the latter, but not in the context that you seem to try to force fit almost any solution or discussion of solutions.

Blue" }-
Are that the PLENTY solutions ? I read only one, I can't use.

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "Are that the PLENTY solutions ? I read only one, I can't use." }-Look Erik,

Here's the deal - I'm not doing all your freaking homework for you. I'm not your damn servant. And yes - there are plenty of solutions out there.

They start with FD-ISR, which you already own and have christened perfect, so you're done. Then there is FD-ISR Rescue - which is perfectly fine for a typical user like yourself. However, don't like it since it has fewer features than FD-ISR, but that's moot isn't it, since you have the full version. Right?

Then there is any light virtualization (DF/Returnil/ShadowDefender/PowerShadow/ShadowUser Pro) + imaging/cloning solution (Acronis TI/StorageProtect/lots of free backup and/or clone ISO's/etc). See how I've actually referred to a nominal part of this thread's topic? I realize that it's not in context, but I've at least made the effort. This category runs from pure free to pure paid solution. Your appear to have an issue with these since restoration takes a few minutes, or perhaps the image is a day or two old, or perhaps it takes a little planning to have a recent backup available. Then there are all those fantastic scenarios in which light virtualization fails and you find the BIOS somehow infected with a submolecular rootkill with near magical powers...., which will appear in the year 2030 and immediately infect the three users still on Win XP.

Then there is pure imaging, perhaps with rapid scheduled incrementals, and the heck with trying to do a in-place restore. Nuke and pave the system from an off system image.

This is only scratching the surface, but you've already dismissively commented on virtually all of them on this site because frankly, you head in heels in love with a particular solution and now that the full version of FD-ISR is no longer commercially available, you're acting like the jilted lover. Not that it really matters to you since YOU HAVE A COPY!

As for WHS not being for you? I happen to like unattended and automated backup of all my home machines nightly, being able to retain an embarrassing number is in-time snapshots due to it's single instance strategy, and frankly, I don't care if it's one your single minded radar screen or not.

Blue

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "Look Erik,

Here's the deal - I'm not doing all your freaking homework for you. I'm not your damn servant. And yes - there are plenty of solutions out there.

They start with FD-ISR, which you already own and have christened perfect, so you're done. Then there is FD-ISR Rescue - which is perfectly fine for a typical user like yourself. However, don't like it since it has fewer features than FD-ISR, but that's moot isn't it, since you have the full version. Right?

Then there is any light virtualization (DF/Returnil/ShadowDefender/PowerShadow/ShadowUser Pro) + imaging/cloning solution (Acronis TI/StorageProtect/lots of free backup and/or clone ISO's/etc). See how I've actually referred to a nominal part of this thread's topic? I realize that it's not in context, but I've at least made the effort. This category runs from pure free to pure paid solution. Your appear to have an issue with these since restoration takes a few minutes, or perhaps the image is a day or two old, or perhaps it takes a little planning to have a recent backup available. Then there are all those fantastic scenarios in which light virtualization fails and you find the BIOS somehow infected with a submolecular rootkill with near magical powers...., which will appear in the year 2030 and immediately infect the three users still on Win XP.

Then there is pure imaging, perhaps with rapid scheduled incrementals, and the heck with trying to do a in-place restore. Nuke and pave the system from an off system image.

This is only scratching the surface, but you've already dismissively commented on virtually all of them on this site because frankly, you head in heels in love with a particular solution and now that the full version of FD-ISR is no longer commercially available, you're acting like the jilted lover. Not that it really matters to you since YOU HAVE A COPY!

As for WHS not being for you? I happen to like unattended and automated backup of all my home machines nightly, being able to retain an embarrassing number is in-time snapshots due to it's single instance strategy, and frankly, I don't care if it's one your single minded radar screen or not.

Blue" }-
Let's talk about DeepFreeze/ShadowDefender as a mean to try new softwares and without personal comments, they bore me.
That's what users do in practice, try new stuff and when they don't like, they want to get rid of it without traces instead of using Add/Remove.
All these ISR-softwares are used for that purpose.

I claim that you can't use these software to test legitimate reboot-softwares and don't tell me they don't exist.
How is the user going to test these software without risks ?

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "Let's talk about DeepFreeze/ShadowDefender as a mean to try new softwares" }-At present, neither allow this option is the application installation procedure requires a system restart. You know that, I know that, so actually what's the point discussing it? There's nothing to discuss at the present time.
-{ Quote: "and without personal comments, they bore me." }-I could care less what bores you.
-{ Quote: "That's what users do in practice, try new stuff and when they don't like, they want to get rid of it without traces instead of using Add/Remove.
All these ISR-softwares are used for that purpose." }-No, that's not what users primarily employ applications such as Deep Freeze or Shadow Defender for. They primarily use them for last state rollback after simple usage. In addition, there's nothing intrinsically problematic with using Add/Remove.
-{ Quote: "I claim that you can't use these software to test legitimate reboot-softwares and don't tell me they don't exist." }-That what don't exist? Software that requires a reboot or users who would like to test some software? The former certainly exist, as does the latter, and I don't believe I've ever said that neither exist.
-{ Quote: "How is the user going to test these software without risks ?" }-As already noted, FD-ISR Rescue allow them to do exactly this. Today. An image on an external drive allows anyone to plunder their main system at will and come back like nothing happened. Depending on their system, that could take minutes to tens of minutes. Anyone can do that today. They could keep a clone handy and perform a physical drive swap, or if a USB/Firewire boot is supported, boot from the external clone. As fast, if not faster than any other solution.

If you want to eliminate all risk in performing any task on a computer, there's only one way to do that - turn the computer off and unplug it. There, problem solved.

Blue

[ErikAlbert]

The fact is that DeepFreeze and ShadowDefender can't be used for that purpose and that users have to rely on IB when they try a reboot-software.
I wonder how practical this will be with a single HDD/partition of 300gb used space ? Can't be backup of 10 minuts.

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "The fact is that DeepFreeze and ShadowDefender can't be used for that purpose and that users have to rely on IB when they try a reboot-software.
I wonder how practical this will be with a single HDD/partition of 300gb used space ? Can't be backup of 10 minuts." }-Why do you feel the need to put constraints on this? If those are your constraints, available options include: FD-ISR full version - not currently available
FD-ISR Rescue
RollbackRx and it's clones
ShadowUser Pro (there's that low level access issue...)
The native OS system restore
MS Windows Steady Stateand that's with not looking around, none of these solutions are image backup, and all but the first are available to anyone. Each has different weaknesses, but you've placed artificial boundaries around the problem (1 drive, 300 GB, 10 minutes). If your objective is to provide a solution, my first advice would be to get realistic regarding constraints.

Blue

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "Why do you feel the need to put constraints on this? If those are your constraints, available options include: FD-ISR full version - not currently available
FD-ISR Rescue
RollbackRx and it's clones
ShadowUser Pro (there's that low level access issue...)
The native OS system restore
MS Windows Steady Stateand that's with not looking around, none of these solutions are image backup, and all but the first are available to anyone. Each has different weaknesses, but you've placed artificial boundaries around the problem (1 drive, 300 GB, 10 minutes). If your objective is to provide a solution, my first advice would be to get realistic regarding constraints.

Blue" }-
I thought the subject is DeepFreeze and ShadowDefender and what you can do with them, except boot-to-restore.
DeepFreeze and ShadowDefender require a separation of system and data and that includes partitioning.
There is alot more involved than these 2 softwares itself.

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "I thought the subject is DeepFreeze and ShadowDefender and what you can do with them, except boot-to-restore." }-The thread is about them, but you set the constraints with your post. I was politely answering your direct question with a direct answer. I'll refrain from using those niceties in the future and, yes, I'm being serious.
-{ Quote: "DeepFreeze and ShadowDefender require a separation of system and data and that includes partitioning." }-Could you please point me to some documentation that states this is a structural requirement? Do you even know what you're talking about?
-{ Quote: "There is alot more involved than these 2 softwares itself." }-Sure there is - if you wish to unnecessarily complicate things.

Blue

[ErikAlbert]

You can't live without Image Backup, unless you like to install your computer manually over and over again.
And you will need that IB to protect you against reboot-softwares, when something goes wrong.
To do that IB as quick as possible, you need a pure system partition without data, especially when your data has a large volume of 300gb for example.

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "
Sure there is - if you wish to unnecessarily complicate things.
Blue" }-
You can't work with DeepFreeze without separating your system and data. Ask Rmus.
And yes I know what I'm talking about. I use an ISR-software since March 2006.

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "You can't live without Image Backup, unless you like to install your computer manually over and over again." }-True and true - and eventually (it really is when, not if) you'll lose your personal files if you rely on the pure reinstall solution. So backup of some form is absolutely needed. However, it really doesn't need to be tightly integrated into everything else.
-{ Quote: "And you will need that IB to protect you against reboot-softwares, when something goes wrong." }-I'd put it differently. It's needed for the first item (basically catastropic system failure - typically pure hardware failure), but it's available for this second need.
-{ Quote: "To do that IB as quick as possible, you need a pure system partition without data, especially when your data has a large volume of 300gb for example." }-It helps, but that's not needed.

Blue

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "You can't work with DeepFreeze without separating your system and data. Ask Rmus." }-There are plenty of ways to accomplish this without formally devoting the effort to creating a second thawed partition and performing a relocation of the Documents and Settings folder onto that thawed partition.

The obvious is a mirror/synch to a removable drive. Yes, that's cheating in a way, viewed in another light, it's a completely viable alternate solution.

The Enterprise level product also has another option referred to as ThawSpace which will accomplish this

Blue

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "
I'd put it differently. It's needed for the first item (basically catastropic system failure - typically pure hardware failure), but it's available for this second need.
" }-
Some software corrupt your system partition, without a physical hardware failure and I needed my IB 4 times to restore my system partition, because ISR failed.
I don't know anything but IB, because I can't fix a corrupted system manually.
-{ Quote: "
It helps, but that's not needed.
" }-
Don't agree.

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "There are plenty of ways to accomplish this without formally devoting the effort to creating a second thawed partition and performing a relocation of the Documents and Settings folder onto that thawed partition.

The obvious is a mirror/synch to a removable drive. Yes, that's cheating in a way, viewed in another light, it's a completely viable alternate solution.

The Enterprise level product also has another option referred to as ThawSpace which will accomplish this

Blue" }-
Using another drive is the same as putting your data on another partition.
I don't see the difference. You separated your data and the way you do it isn't important. If you don't do it, your data is gone after reboot.

[EASTER]

-{ Quote: "They start with FD-ISR, which you already own and have christened perfect, so you're done" }-

That one statement made my whole day, thanks guys for the heavy engagement and persistent follow ups. :)

This topic wired tightly with these exchanges are important for me right now because i'm sitting on ready to install DEEP FREEZE but now have a slight apprehension i hope i see cleared up.

I intend to install to a single, non-partitioned drive, my testing HD is wiped, formatted, and installed with basic security programs in place.

I want to add DEEP FREEZE over these few security programs, like EQSecure (HIPS), maybe SandboxIE, maybe not, but defintely Faronic's Anti-Executable. What i dont want to find is that i need another partition to support this setup. No FD-ISR here, this is going to be a RAW install of what i mentioned. If theres a need to keep or update something then that's what the THAWED state is about right? I won't concern myself during the time of going THAWED to add programs and such, but am i going to experience something unexpected by turning off/on this app? I turn on/off AE to add to it's whitelist when installing a program, can one or either of you explain how working with DEEP FREEZE is going to be any different?

And lastly, is it relevant, useful, or even needed to impliment AE in DF at all? Will they gel together without issue you think?

This is not for me about separating data from system, it's about getting the best use/protection from DP, while AE + HIPS do their basic duties.

Any thoughts, ideas?

Also congrats BlueZannetti for going Red.

[ErikAlbert]

Easter,
Any frozen system partition requires security softwares that stop the execution of as many as possible malwares, because you have already the perfect removal tool (= frozen partition). AE is certainly one of them, the rest is up to you. I don't know much about anti-malware and I still have room for one more.
The philosophy is that all malwares, which bypassed your security softwares, will be removed during reboot.
Preferable, no blacklist softwares, they require daily signature updates and are incomplete anyway.

In contradiction to other members,
1. I keep my frozen snapshot always ON and only turn it OFF, when I'm off-line.
2. I don't exclude any object (folder or file) in my frozen snapshot, which would make it only vulnerable.
That's how I keep my system partition clean.

I would do this as DeepFreeze-user and ShadowDefender-user. Fortunately, I have something much better than these two as long it lasts of course.

[Long View]

-{ Quote: "That one statement made my whole day, thanks guys for the heavy engagement and persistent follow ups. :)

This topic wired tightly with these exchanges are important for me right now because i'm sitting on ready to install DEEP FREEZE but now have a slight apprehension i hope i see cleared up.

I intend to install to a single, non-partitioned drive, my testing HD is wiped, formatted, and installed with basic security programs in place.

I want to add DEEP FREEZE over these few security programs, like EQSecure (HIPS), maybe SandboxIE, maybe not, but defintely Faronic's Anti-Executable. What i dont want to find is that i need another partition to support this setup. No FD-ISR here, this is going to be a RAW install of what i mentioned. If theres a need to keep or update something then that's what the THAWED state is about right? I won't concern myself during the time of going THAWED to add programs and such, but am i going to experience something unexpected by turning off/on this app? I turn on/off AE to add to it's whitelist when installing a program, can one or either of you explain how working with DEEP FREEZE is going to be any different?

And lastly, is it relevant, useful, or even needed to impliment AE in DF at all? Will they gel together without issue you think?

This is not for me about separating data from system, it's about getting the best use/protection from DP, while AE + HIPS do their basic duties.

Any thoughts, ideas?

Also congrats BlueZannetti for going Red." }-

How do you plan to save data ?

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "Using another drive is the same as putting your data on another partition.
I don't see the difference. You separated your data and the way you do it isn't important. If you don't do it, your data is gone after reboot." }-Erik,

It's mainly convenience - not needing to reconfigure your system - and as you note, same result, different path. It's also a reflection of how I actually work. I generally carry a 100-200 GB portable drive with me to facilitate working across machines.

Blue

[trjam]

It befuddles me how we can take a product and basically tear it apart from A-Z to find out why it isnt worthy. We have done this over time with all the AV products, AS, firewalls and all the in-between. People come, lurk here, to find out information and to make a decision on basic security products for their PC. Please keep in mind that most just want a starting point and we seem to give them a ending point. I really wonder if the average user ever gets a simple answer instead of the reason as to why your PC will not save the world in the end.

Now it is the virtual products turn and as they start out looking promising, we disect them untill we find out why they belong in the junk pile heap like all the others mentioned above. I guess in the end, the message we sometimes send is just turn it on, and use nothing. AVs serve their purpose and ARE needed. Firewalls, antispyware, specialty products ARE needed. New technology like Shadow Defender and Returnil, oh, and yes Deep Freeze, ARE needed.

As a consumer you should read and look for what suits your needs because in the end, THEY will work and only you can decide which fit your needs based on your level of comfort in using them. No, nothing can promise total protection, just like a vitamin cant promise I will live to be a 100. But I take them anyway, for good measure.

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "It befuddles me how we can take a product and basically tear it apart from A-Z to find out why it isnt worthy. " }-trjam,

That's a good point to keep in mind. The tearing apart phase is useful to separate how a product works or it purported to work from how it actually plays out in the field. The deficiencies that appear are useful for all - for users so they know precisely what they're obtaining (and not obtaining), and for vendors to observe how users actually try to use their products.

The problem is occurs when we/someone tries to extrapolate how a potential gap will play out. It's akin to those miniscule differences in AV detection that many read all too much into. Same here. The jump from identified difference/gap to not worthy is one that's generally made too quickly and without due consideration to whether that difference/gap presents a current pragmatic issue.

Blue

[Long View]

-{ Quote: "It befuddles me how we can take a product and basically tear it apart from A-Z to find out why it isnt worthy. " }-

OT: whilst I sympathize with your concerns I think that a misquote from George Washington is in order here "We must take man as we find him, not as we would wish him to be"

To do otherwise would mean that Wilders would die for lack of acceptable posts.

Personally I would settle for a few more IMOs in place of "XYZ is without doubt the greatest piece of software and everything else sucks"

perhaps next year?

[trjam]

-{ Quote: "
Personally I would settle for a few more IMOs in place of "XYZ is without doubt the greatest piece of software and everything else sucks"
perhaps next year?" }-

Amen to that.:)

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "That one statement made my whole day, thanks guys for the heavy engagement and persistent follow ups. :)

This topic wired tightly with these exchanges are important for me right now because i'm sitting on ready to install DEEP FREEZE but now have a slight apprehension i hope i see cleared up.

I intend to install to a single, non-partitioned drive, my testing HD is wiped, formatted, and installed with basic security programs in place.

I want to add DEEP FREEZE over these few security programs, like EQSecure (HIPS), maybe SandboxIE, maybe not, but defintely Faronic's Anti-Executable. What i dont want to find is that i need another partition to support this setup. No FD-ISR here, this is going to be a RAW install of what i mentioned. If theres a need to keep or update something then that's what the THAWED state is about right? I won't concern myself during the time of going THAWED to add programs and such, but am i going to experience something unexpected by turning off/on this app? I turn on/off AE to add to it's whitelist when installing a program, can one or either of you explain how working with DEEP FREEZE is going to be any different?

And lastly, is it relevant, useful, or even needed to impliment AE in DF at all? Will they gel together without issue you think?

This is not for me about separating data from system, it's about getting the best use/protection from DP, while AE + HIPS do their basic duties.

Any thoughts, ideas?

Also congrats BlueZannetti for going Red." }-

Easter, the answer to this question, is it depends on how you are going to work. If nothing on the machine changes, it will work fine. From what I saw DF automatically protects all drives, when it is installed. This is good based on it's purpose, but bad for say me.

The way I work, even with ShadowDefender, I leave it mostly off. This may be way I have seen some of the activation problem mentioned in another thread. I only turn it on when I am doing something, I consider higher risk. For me the ability to commit is important, as sometime in the middle of that, I will make a schedule change in my access database, and it's nice to be able to commit that file, and not worry about it.

Bascially, I use FDISR/SP as my always on Shadow, and SD/Returnil as my temporary extra protection shadow.

What you are asking about should work technically. Just a question of how it fits your intended purpose.

Pete

[demoneye]

welp what u think the best solution is use MIRROR 5 + DF lol

better than all this ISR stuf and we done :)

[ErikAlbert]

Tearing apart ? I'm just discussing these softwares like any other software and everybody has another approach to protect his computer.
Never get emotional about softwares, look at them and study them and my conclusion was that DeepFreeze is less than my actual solution.
The reader has to make a decision, not me and there is alot more involved than just installing such software and run it.
I can easily evaluate these softwares, because I'm working with an ISR-software that has the maximum of possibilities. I don't step back, I like to go forward.
If it is too complicated, choose the product you like and use it the way you like.
I have my own way to use such softwares and I already noticed that other users don't do it the way I do it.
For the record : I'm not obsessed by FDISR, I replace it immediately when I find something better, but there is NO alternative, that is how much I like FDISR.
FDISR is DEAD and I have to find a replacement in the next 5 years.
I just don't understand why you all get so emotional about softwares, to me they are just tools and every software sucks, but some suck more than others and yes FDISR sucks too, I have a list of complaints.
I'm just trying to find a software that does its job, the way I like it. :)

[LUSHER]

-{ Quote: "
Never get emotional about softwares, look at them and study them ...

For the record : I'm not obsessed by FDISR, I replace it immediately when I find something better, but there is NO alternative, that is how much I like FDISR.
" }-

Well all this would be a lot more convincing if one didn't insist on talking about FDISR all the time even when it's at best tangentially relevant.

Well technically, these days one is both boasting about how one has found the perfect security solution followed immediately by moaning that it's the end of the world because FDISR is supposedly dead...

If one weren't a regular to this forum used to reading such posts, one would wonder if the poster was a bit emotionally unstable.

[Long View]

-{ Quote: "
For the record : I'm not obsessed by FDISR, I replace it immediately when I find something better, but there is NO alternative, that is how much I like FDISR.
" }-

Is it possible that this is just a linguistic misunderstanding ? "There is NO alternative" is not the same as "I do not like the alternatives"

Some time ago, when discussing FD-ISR and freeze you initially said that it was NOT possible to use Returnil and later changed this to you didn't want to have to click on F1.

There are alternatives to FD-ISR - many alternatives. That you don't like these alternatives is understood but please stop claiming that there are no alternatives - if only for the benefit of the casual reader who might misunderstand as a result of your posts.

I am happy using Acronis and say deepfreeze. This combination allows me to do whatever I want - to have hundreds of snapshots(images) to freeze or unfreeze as I see fit and all at speeds which make any speed comparison irrelevant. I am not asking you to do the same - simply trying to get you to understand that there are alternatives which suit others even though they do not suit you.

I can not speak for others but all I'm asking is that you change "there are no alternatives" to "I don't like the alternatives" :-*

[ErikAlbert]

Hey, let's talk about DF and SD and what you can do with it and what you can't do with it. I'm not the subject and drop the personal comments, that is waste of time.

[trjam]

no you are not the subject, but the product you love is in reality, what most of us want. It is ashame. Its time may have come before the reality of the need. And I would buy it in a second if it were here today, I think most would. What was non-profitable then, would be now. Heres to hopefully Tony creating SD into something at least close or in the ball park.

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "no you are not the subject, but the product you love is in reality, what most of us want. It is ashame. Its time may have come before the reality of the need. And I would buy it in a second if it were here today, I think most would. What was non-profitable then, would be now. Heres to hopefully Tony creating SD into something at least close or in the ball park." }-
If Tony is able to export and import several archives of different versions of system partition with SD, then he is VERY CLOSE to FDISR.
For instance :
- an archive that contains a fresh installed unused system partition
- an archive that contains a system partition with software A + B
- an archive that contains a system partition with software A + B + C + D
- an archive that contains your recent system partition.
You can save these several archives and when you need them you can import them back, use them or adjust them and store them back or keep on using them.
Of course it needs to happen fast, not like Image Backup/Restore.

The only thing I would miss are the multiple snapshots, but I can live with that, because FDISR is DEAD and I need an alternative one day.

[demoneye]

WELP

after all like we all agree ...combine thoos FDISR progy + DF/SD give you the best protection to your pc.

although make image to your drive (shadow protect etc) is extremist for
home computer.

DF is for pro uses like pc's in the industry or public ones
SD more flexible although in theory more vulnerable (commit can add malware in mem also)

cheers:thumb:

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "

although make image to your drive (shadow protect etc) is extremist for
home computer.

" }-

That is total nonsense. Every home user should use either imaging or some form of backup. Unfortunately most don't learn this until way to late.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "If Tony is able to export and import several archives of different versions of system partition with SD, then he is VERY CLOSE to FDISR.
For instance :
- an archive that contains a fresh installed unused system partition
- an archive that contains a system partition with software A + B
- an archive that contains a system partition with software A + B + C + D
- an archive that contains your recent system partition.
You can save these several archives and when you need them you can import them back, use them or adjust them and store them back or keep on using them.
Of course it needs to happen fast, not like Image Backup/Restore.

The only thing I would miss are the multiple snapshots, but I can live with that, because FDISR is DEAD and I need an alternative one day." }-

Hmm. If Wishes Were Horses, Beggars Would Ride. If Tony were foolish enough to try this, he would end up with a program, that did neither well.

Pete

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "Hmm. If Wishes Were Horses, Beggars Would Ride. If Tony were foolish enough to try this, he would end up with a program, that did neither well.

Pete" }-
That depends on how he develops the GUI.
An easy GUI for those who want a simple boot-to-restore solution.
Another GUI for those who want more.
Everything is possible as long you know how to do it.

[demoneye]

-{ Quote: "That is total nonsense. Every home user should use either imaging or some form of backup. Unfortunately most don't learn this until way to late." }-

yo peter dont be ridiculous man...DF + AV is more than enogh for home users...what u expect for mother and sun?? running BDC lol!!!!!!

maybe is better home users will buy pcs with RAID make there main 320 hd mirror to more 3 disks like the main one?? LOL LOL

most home users can work nice and easy adding SD to there level of protection :) :)

cheers:D

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "yo peter dont be ridiculous man...DF + AV is more than enogh for home users...what u expect for mother and sun??

cheers:D" }-

You know at times, it's hard to tell whether to really take you seriously.

First of all for the average home user, DF would be a disaster. If you can't figure out why, I am not going to waste my time.

2nd. Do explain to me how DF+AV will help the average home user with the stuff they lost when their hard drives fail.

To be honest with you the only reason I bother replying is so a new Wilders reader will realize not to take some posts seriously.

Pete

[demoneye]

-{ Quote: "You know at times, it's hard to tell whether to really take you seriously.

First of all for the average home user, DF would be a disaster. If you can't figure out why, I am not going to waste my time.

2nd. Do explain to me how DF+AV will help the average home user with the stuff they lost when their hard drives fail.

To be honest with you the only reason I bother replying is so a new Wilders reader will realize not to take some posts seriously.

Pete" }-
hi peter hope they will not take your reply 2 mcuh serious coz u are pranoid lol...if u read my reply to this thred i said c:\ = os +basic sotfware other stuff goes to d:\ e:\....etc..
so good AV + SD/SF will suit most users pal ...and if u cant understand someting ask ...dont tell all board "ignore that " coz u miss the point

cheers 8)

[trjam]

-{ Quote: "hi peter hope they will not take your reply 2 mcuh serious coz u are pranoid lol...if u read my reply to this thred i said c:\ = os +basic sotfware other stuff goes to d:\ e:\....etc..
so good AV + SD/SF will suit most users pal ...and if u cant understand someting ask ...dont tell all board "ignore that " coz u miss the point

cheers 8)" }-
the only point being missed is one called "Grammar".::)

[Rmus]

-{ Quote: "there are plenty of solutions out there,... It's all in the logistical settings and implementation." }-
Hello, Blue - congratulations on your "upgrade" to Administrator!

I like your above statement - it has a catchy appeal! Hopefully, you won't mind if I quote it!

Regarding discussion in this thread, it seems to me that if one's starting point were to consider how a particular security software fits into the security plan, or strategy, fewer overlaps and conflicts would occur. It would eliminate the need for "which is better" discussions, since the answer to that question can only come from knowing intimately a person's complete setup and working environment.

From that point of view, there is no "ultimate" solution, therefore, no rationale to make such a statement, which consequently leads to responses such as

-{ Quote: "Your ultimate wouldn't work for me," }-Or for many others...

Comparisons can be discussed without concluding that a solution is necessarily ideal or not ideal for everyone.

With respect to Deep Freeze versus other similar products - what does Deep Freeze do, and how does it differ from them?

We can learn from Easter's question,

-{ Quote: "And lastly, is it relevant, useful, or even needed to impliment AE in DF at all? Will they gel together without issue you think?" }-From the Faronics FAQ:

-{ Quote: "13. What is the difference between Deep Freeze and Anti-Executable?

The primary use for Deep Freeze is to remove any changes made to a workstation after a restart. Although a restart will eradicate any spyware, virus, or unlicensed software from the system, the system is still vulnerable to infection prior to a restart. This is because Deep Freeze provides a completely non-restrictive environment on a workstation.

Anti-Executable is a restrictive application that will prevent any new executable from launching or installing whether it is good, bad, or really ugly. This will prevent any and all executable viruses, Trojans, or spyware from being run on the system at all. Furthermore, Anti-Executable will prevent any unwanted or illegal software from running, such as a game or copy of a messenger or P2P file-sharing program.

The two applications are designed for different, but complementary roles on the workstation." }-Significant here are the terms, "non-restrictive" and "restrictive."

Deep Freeze is 'non-restrictive' in that it does not restrict (prevent) something from installing, or from changes being made to the system. Rather, it's sole purpose in life is "to remove any changes made to a workstation after a restart." It is not an imaging nor backup program.

For educational institutions - this is a tremendous feature, as students in computing laboratories can work on assignments dealing with the Registry, for example -- the instructors knowing that the workstations will resort to original state on reboot.

For home use -- software that doesn't require a reboot can be evaluated, and the System partition always remains in its original state.

"Restrictive" software such as Anti-Executable, on the other hand, restricts (denies by default) the installation of any unauthorized executables.

In this way, Anti-Executable (or an Anti-Virus program) would complement a program such as Deep Freeze, if that fits in with the user's security strategy. Who can answer that but the user herself/himself?

As has been stated,

-{ Quote: "It's all in the logistical settings and implementation." }-

Who benefits from using Deep Freeze?

-{ Quote: "DF is for pro users, who want to realy secure there pc no kiddie play with it!" }-I'm not sure what you mean by a "pro" user, but if "professional" in the sense of institutions or companies, then that characterization is completely false.

If by "pro" you mean technical experts -- again, I disagree with your characterization.

Five home users besides myself come to mind who have used Deep Freeze for years, with no problems. Two are average (whatever that means) family situations where one computer is used by all in the family. Another is a faculty member at a college who saw how Deep Freeze works and decided to install it at home.

Again,

-{ Quote: "It's all in the logistical settings and implementation." }-

There are numerous ways of setting up Deep Freeze. In an institutional setting, computers normally have a single partition, and the Enterprise Edition of Deep Freeze installs a virtual Thawed partition for user files -- faculty PowerPoint presentations on classroom computers, for example.

Deep Freeze Standard edition does not have this feature, so other considerations come into play. The user has to have at least one Thawed partition (place for storage) for data which will not be discarded upon reboot.

-{ Quote: "From what I saw DF automatically protects all drives, when it is installed. " }-

Upon installation, the user has the choice to select which drives (partitions) are to be frozen.

196472
______________________________________________________________

While partitioning the Hard Disk is one solution, there are others, such as
A second internal Hard Disk
External media

Having the internal HD in a removable carriage/tray is useful for some people. Two I know at a college use an external HD for storage with their laptops, choosing to keep no data on the laptop.

While some people re-map their C:\Documents directory to another partition, another solution is to not use that directory at all, and set up a filing system for storage on another partition/drive. Applications such as MSWord have the Option to designate the directory in which to save documents, and so can point to whatever location you designate for storage.

-{ Quote: "It's all in the logistical settings and implementation." }-
In keeping with the comparison with Shadow Defender, here is the principal difference between it and Deep Freeze (from the Shadow Defender website):

-{ Quote: "The greatest thing is that you can choose what can actually get stuck on the disk while in Shadow Mode.
" }-Deep Freeze does not permit the user to commit (save) changes to a frozen partition.

Why this should be criticized as a shortcoming is puzzling: it is a feature of the program that keeps with its concept of robust security.

If lack of that feature (or any feature) makes a program unattractive, then another program (Shadow Defender in this case) will fit the need and can be highly recommended without heaping criticism on the other product.

-{ Quote: "there are plenty of solutions out there,... It's all in the logistical settings and implementation." }-

----
rich

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "

Upon installation, the user has the choice to select which drives (partitions) are to be frozen.

" }-

You are right. I saw that and it didn't register. I was assuming that would be an option once installed. Given the design purpose of DF makes sense it wouldn't be.

Pete

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "hi peter hope they will not take your reply 2 mcuh serious coz u are pranoid lol...if u read my reply to this thred i said c:\ = os +basic sotfware other stuff goes to d:\ e:\....etc..
so good AV + SD/SF will suit most users pal ...and if u cant understand someting ask ...dont tell all board "ignore that " coz u miss the point

cheers 8)" }-

First I don't consider backup and imaging paranoid, but quite prudent.

Second I didn't miss your point. Typical home users don't have more than one drive to setup the way you described. They have the c: drive that came in their system, most likely have the out of date AV that came in the system. Should they do backups. Absolutely, but do they...no.

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "hi peter hope they will not take your reply 2 mcuh serious coz u are pranoid lol...if u read my reply to this thred i said c:\ = os +basic sotfware other stuff goes to d:\ e:\....etc..
so good AV + SD/SF will suit most users pal ...and if u cant understand someting ask ...dont tell all board "ignore that " coz u miss the point" }-demoneye,

I've basically had the same read as Peter on some of your comments, and in part it's because you tend to leave details either out or somewhat obscured. We're not paranoid. Far from it.

There are a couple of issues here. First, the discussion has been moving between general (data loss) and specific (DF/SD protection) scenarios.

In the general scenario, one has to consider data loss via both malware based corruption and physical failure of a HDD. Physical failure can involve any HDD on the system. While malware based corruption can be addressed by many different means, hardware failure is only addressable by having the same files on multiple physical devices. Those physical devices can be a second internal HDD, an external HDD, or some type of removable media (CD/DVD) - but the baseline is always the same: one file on two (or more) physical devices.

A user doesn't need to be fancy, they just need to appreciate that the HDD will, at some point, fail if used long enough and when that occurs, material on that drive is lost unless the value exceeds the cost of a custom recovery effort. Do ordinary users (mom/son) need to worry about this? Well, as entertainment (purchased music or videos/personal photos) increasingly move to only downloaded digital form, yes, ordinary users need to consider this. Some form of image backup makes it convenient in that key portions of the information may be neglected if simpler approaches (say a simple copy operation) are employed by a casual user.

With respect to protecting against malware corruption, an AV+SD or AV+DF are close to equal. Let's ignore the specific POC type vulnerability of DF that has already been discussed, it will be fixed at some point if it hasn't already been addressed. I agree that, in broad strokes, SD trades some ease of use for potential vulnerabilities when compared to DF. Part of the ease of use is that a user can configure SD to fit within a typical installation, that may have been in use for years, without any changes via a judicious choice of excluded folders. It can be seemless. For many users, DF would require a minor change in usage - it's not an onerous change, anyone could do it if desired - it's just different from typical defaults and is best accomplished with some prior thought.

Blue

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "Hello, Blue - congratulations on your "upgrade" to Administrator!

I like your above statement - it has a catchy appeal! Hopefully, you won't mind if I quote it!" }-Thanks - and I absolutely won't mind - quote or use without attribution at will.
-{ Quote: "Deep Freeze does not permit the user to commit (save) changes to a frozen partition." }-For some that's a limitation, for others it's a critical feature.
-{ Quote: "If lack of that feature (or any feature) makes a program unattractive, then another program (Shadow Defender in this case) will fit the need and can be highly recommended without heaping criticism on the other product." }-Exactly! For something to be good doesn't mean everything else which is different has to be considered bad or weak. It's not a zero sum game.

Blue

[demoneye]

hi again :)

welp first peter ==> "Second I didn't miss your point. Typical home users don't have more than one drive to setup the way you described. They have the c: drive that came in their system, most likely have the out of date AV that came in the system. Should they do backups. Absolutely, but do they...no."

yoo mann... ppl do like split there 320 giga hd into some other partiotion...coz of the reason when u need to format c:\ coz windows get dameage , u dont have to waste time and deal with what to bacup. and i am talking on 98% users pal ! i work with that and never saw 320 hs stay 1 size ...ony for special ppl who need abig hs for music/ movies makeing.so expend your mind and finaly get down 2 my way of thinking :-*

and for you BlueZannetti + peter ... why waste all this clicking? just buy new pc (very chep) install whs (windows home server) and u can get daily backup the all street of your lol , no need for DP nor FDIRS (momy/son will be happy) .... heheh

cheers ;D

[ErikAlbert]

Hi guys,
You can discuss this as long as you want, I have something what users only dream about.
A computer that repairs and cleans itself automatically for the next 5 years and when FDISR is still compatible with winVISTA, I'm good for another 5 years.
Nothing can beat a fresh, clean installed and unused system partition and that's what I have after each reboot.

All what I have to do extra and what every user has to do is
- upgrading my system partition, when needed
- do a backup, when needed.
- pay attention to what I download and install.
I only have to wait for something better.

Sorry about the other ISR-softwares, but they weren't versatile enough to do the job, otherwise I would use them already.
You can discuss all these little differences between them, but they are not important as long they aren't real ISR-softwares.

Meanwhile I keep a good eye on all these ISR-softwares, while they grow up.
One day, I might need one of them to replace FDISR, but 5-10 years is a long time.

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "why waste all this clicking?" }-I don't.
-{ Quote: "just buy new {...snip...} whs (windows home server) and u can get daily backup" }-I have - it's cost/time effective for me (5-7 clients), but that's not true for everyone.

Blue

[Hairy Coo]

Courtesy Urban Dictionary;

WELP
what really annoying people say instead of well. The same kind of people who use jah instead of yes. :wacko:

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "Courtesy Urban Dictionary;

WELP
what really annoying people say instead of well. The same kind of people who use jah instead of yes. :wacko:" }-

ROFL;D ;D

[Tarnak]

whelp

LOL.....I just thought the H was missing

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/whelp

[Osaban]

-{ Quote: "Hi guys,
You can discuss this as long as you want, I have something what users only dream about.
A computer that repairs and cleans itself automatically for the next 5 years and when FDISR is still compatible with winVISTA, I'm good for another 5 years.
Nothing can beat a fresh, clean installed and unused system partition and that's what I have after each reboot.

All what I have to do extra and what every user has to do is
- upgrading my system partition, when needed
- do a backup, when needed.
- pay attention to what I download and install.
I only have to wait for something better.

Sorry about the other ISR-softwares, but they weren't versatile enough to do the job, otherwise I would use them already.
You can discuss all these little differences between them, but they are not important as long they aren't real ISR-softwares.

Meanwhile I keep a good eye on all these ISR-softwares, while they grow up.
One day, I might need one of them to replace FDISR, but 5-10 years is a long time." }-

Nobody has ever questioned or argued that FDISR is a stunning application in terms of its versatility.

Versatility which has contributed to its demise (not a very easy application to learn to use for the average household). Then, if we like to add 11,315 posts from its forum, which are basically from people enthusiastic, complaining, learning etc, we are talking about an application that is not trouble free.

You can live with your dream, in the meantime there are applications that are still 'evergreen' to use one of your beloved expressions: DeepFreeze, I mention the one on topic which is continuously developed, and others that are potentially becoming irresistible like shadowdefender.

You keep saying your system is invincible, the truth is that here at Wilders we have different systems with different strategies which lead to the same result: Malware free systems. Your attitude towards other posters and ideas is becoming arrogant and pedantic, and in 5-10 years time we might be even in another world.

[EASTER]

-{ Quote: "Easter, the answer to this question, is it depends on how you are going to work. If nothing on the machine changes, it will work fine. From what I saw DF automatically protects all drives, when it is installed. This is good based on it's purpose, but bad for say me.

The way I work, even with ShadowDefender, I leave it mostly off. This may be way I have seen some of the activation problem mentioned in another thread. I only turn it on when I am doing something, I consider higher risk. For me the ability to commit is important, as sometime in the middle of that, I will make a schedule change in my access database, and it's nice to be able to commit that file, and not worry about it.

Bascially, I use FDISR/SP as my always on Shadow, and SD/Returnil as my temporary extra protection shadow.

What you are asking about should work technically. Just a question of how it fits your intended purpose.

Pete" }-

Hello Pete:

You are quite right across the spectrum.

FD-ISR will always remain and is an Xtremely Vital element for me in all my own research work and even with customization endeavors i take hobby in.

My interest in DEEP FREEZE stems from one single agenda i yet to realize.

That is "ONE" program, that alone can superceed and support a system almost entirely on it's own. That's my vision. So "IF" a program like DEEP FREEZE can reliably without end protect against the worse of the worse possible coded attack files via a simple reboot, i envision teaming up say AE as a safeguard suppliment to compliment this concept. I'm looking for a program that can take any of the most ill conceived designs to disrupt, like viruses & other malware and simply dispatch them completely on-reboot. In essence taking a RAW system with maybe only a firewall + AE, and nothing more needed.

That's the underlying premise of this interest of mine in DEEP FREEZE, if it can meet that fantasy criteria. It's widely reported to be quite effective for tha purpose with the exception of an UnFreezer for example or some other executable, but then i would expect AE to fill that potential entry range to represent that only other possible disruption to DF.

[Peter2150]

One thing I'd be curious to see. When the POC that attacks the disk came up, Shadow Protect failed. In two days, we had a version with a fix. I'd be curious to see if a Deepfreeze user approached Faronic's about it if they'd respond as quickly. I would hope so, but be interesting to find out. I can't, as I am not a user.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "

That's the underlying premise of this interest of mine in DEEP FREEZE, if it can meet that fantasy criteria. It's widely reported to be quite effective for tha purpose with the exception of an UnFreezer for example or some other executable, but then i would expect AE to fill that potential entry range to represent that only other possible disruption to DF." }-

Easter, understanding that and having tried both apps, I'd say if you are in a commercial environment DeepFreeze might be better, but if in a personal environment, ShadowDefender is more flexible, but offers the same protection.

[EASTER]

-{ Quote: "Easter, understanding that and having tried both apps, I'd say if you are in a commercial environment DeepFreeze might be better, but if in a personal environment, ShadowDefender is more flexible, but offers the same protection." }-

Thanks for laying out those distinctions from an experienced point of view. You continue to contribute and are of great asset in your taking matters/products to task like you do.

[demoneye]

-{ Quote: "Easter, understanding that and having tried both apps, I'd say if you are in a commercial environment DeepFreeze might be better, but if in a personal environment, ShadowDefender is more flexible, but offers the same protection." }-

maybe the "same feature" but for certain not the same ability and quality to stand against malware worms and hacking attempts .


cheers:dry:

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "maybe the "same feature" but for certain not the same ability and quality to stand against malware worms and hacking attempts .


cheers:dry:" }-

And of course you have conclusive technical evidence to back that up??

[demoneye]

-{ Quote: "And of course you have conclusive technical evidence to back that up??" }-

YES peter

seems u aint read all of the post / or doesnt rememmber them or dont look at manufacturer specifications .

this one goes for you dear peter...DF DOES PROTECT BIOS/CMOS what SD DOESNT also DF can STAND format of the drive he froozen.

i hope you are unserstanding the advantage of bios / cmos protection and revover from format hd... if not i dont gona do this job for you man , search google ot whatever

cheers:thumb:

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "DF DOES PROTECT BIOS/CMOS" }-Actually, what Faronics state is:-{ Quote: "Deep Freeze Security Notice: Deep Freeze does not protect against booting from a floppy drive or CD-ROM drive. The CMOS should be configured to prevent booting from the floppy drive or CD-ROM drive (i.e. set to boot to the hard drive) and the CMOS must be password protected. This is a normal precaution for most public access computers. The Windows Registry, the computer CMOS and the boot sector are protected by Deep Freeze from within Windows." }-Which is different from your claims.

Blue

[Peter2150]

Actually DF fails one of the low level disk access tests we've found. It is going to be passed on to Faronics

Pete

[EASTER]

Even the best of intentions (ideas) with softwares are not entirely complete, except FD-ISR archives, Those are etched in Granite and since they can be separated for complete isolation i call that 100% failsafe.

DEEP FREEZE is a program with no archives or images to fall back to, it is then subject to become under attack and compromised.

Thanks Pete for yet another vulnerability find, if it's a program on or even inside the deepest possible recesses of the system, that;s a security risk sooner or later.

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "
DEEP FREEZE is a program with no archives or images to fall back to, it is then subject to become under attack and compromised." }-
All boot-to-restore solutions have that in common, that's why I don't use them.
The only way to fall back is using an Image Backup/Restore and that's too slow and inconvenient.
I'm not worried about low level attacks, my zero tool and ShadowProtect will fix it, IF that ever happens.
Also legitimate softwares, like Baseline Shield of HDS, attacked FDISR in the past, I don't see much difference and the solution is always the same.
What about testing hardware viruses ? I don't think any member is going to do that.

[EASTER]

-{ Quote: "All boot-to-restore solutions have that in common, that's why I don't use them.
The only way to fall back is using an Image Backup/Restore and that's too slow and inconvenient." }-

Not FD-ISR archives! Look more closely at them objectively. FD Archives are as close to a genuine image from a backup program you can get, furthermore, FD archives have proven even more reliable! Ever turn to an image from your favorite backup program only for the screen to disapprove with some error message as in corrupt image, cannot read from image, etc.?

I can report with complete confidence and to my own personal relief that i have never experienced such a single issue from FD-ISR even after wiping a drive with ALL snapshots, formatting then reinstalling FD-ISR anew, and then returning snapshots from FD's archives into 100% completely working system again.

I like to see some imaging programs equal that level of percentages. Even my Paragon has, although very rarely, suffered from some sort of malfunction that made restoring one of it's images impossible. With FD-ISR archives, they been proven of enormous value & asset that even one of the best imaging programs couldn't match.

That's why i say FD-ISR's archives are to me GOLD! or better yet, hard as Diamond.

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "Not FD-ISR archives! Look more closely at them objectively. FD Archives are as close to a genuine image from a backup program you can get, furthermore, FD archives have proven even more reliable! Ever turn to an image from your favorite backup program only for the screen to disapprove with some error message as in corrupt image, cannot read from image, etc.?

I can report with complete confidence and to my own personal relief that i have never experienced such a single issue from FD-ISR even after wiping a drive with ALL snapshots, formatting then reinstalling FD-ISR anew, and then returning snapshots from FD's archives into 100% completely working system again.

I like to see some imaging programs equal that level of percentages. Even my Paragon has, although very rarely, suffered from some sort of malfunction that made restoring one of it's images impossible. With FD-ISR archives, they been proven of enormous value & asset that even one of the best imaging programs couldn't match.

That's why i say FD-ISR's archives are to me GOLD! or better yet, hard as Diamond." }-
I wasn't talking about FDISR, I was talking about Baseline Shield, DeepFreeze, Powershadow, Returnil, ShadowDefender, ShadowUser and the next boot-to-restore software.
All what these softwares offer is just an additional option in FDISR, while all the rest is missing.

[demoneye]

-{ Quote: "I wasn't talking about FDISR, I was talking about Baseline Shield, DeepFreeze, Powershadow, Returnil, ShadowDefender, ShadowUser and the next boot-to-restore software.
All what these softwares offer is just an additional option in FDISR, while all the rest is missing." }-

HI ALL

welp ...lets think again all of you who claim thats FDISR is better than SD or DF...lets look at the facts in logic.

1) if any malware pass in to the computer and demage your partition (c:\)probably it will demage all other disks partition even this with the backup img :)

2) the only good in making backup img is after you install all the software u want and ready to work u make IMG of your boot up partition (contain the os ofcourse) and BURN it on dvd(s) and use it when u get problames.

3) using SD or DF will always keep your system running fast as it the first time u insatll it for life (fdisr doesnt)

conclusion

DF or SD are the only daily progy who make your pc safe and running smoothly .

FDISR is heavy canon which can supply the "from scarcth" if all fails

cherrs:thumb:

[demoneye]

-{ Quote: "Actually DF fails one of the low level disk access tests we've found. It is going to be passed on to Faronics

Pete" }-

well done peter :thumb: i wounder if u test shadowuser pro 2.5 against such attack as low level format.

this was also my point the resistance of such progs (sd df PS) to direct disk access . this eventually what to be taken into account

cheers ;D :thumb:

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "lets think again all of you who claim thats FDISR is better than SD or DF...lets look at the facts in logic." }-You're logic, though interesting, is flawed.
-{ Quote: "1) if any malware pass in to the computer and demage your partition (c:\)probably it will demage all other disks partition even this with the backup img :)" }-I's beyond the scope of this thread, but the version that Erik uses allows offline archive. The commercially available FD-ISR Rescue does not have this facility as an integrated feature.
-{ Quote: "2) the only good in making backup img is after you install all the software u want and ready to work u make IMG of your boot up partition (contain the os ofcourse) and BURN it on dvd(s) and use it when u get problames." }-IMHO, an offline HDD is more appropriate
-{ Quote: "3) using SD or DF will always keep your system running fast as it the first time u insatll it for life (fdisr doesnt)" }-It depends, and it's here that your exercise in logic appears wanting. It's more simply positing a declaration than an exercise in deductive logic.

Blue

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "well done peter :thumb: i wounder if u test shadowuser pro 2.5 against such attack as low level format." }-Already done, see here (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?p=1150846#post1150846). It failed.

Blue

[lucas1985]

-{ Quote: "Actually, what Faronics state is
-{ Quote: "Deep Freeze Security Notice: Deep Freeze does not protect against booting from a floppy drive or CD-ROM drive. The CMOS should be configured to prevent booting from the floppy drive or CD-ROM drive (i.e. set to boot to the hard drive) and the CMOS must be password protected. This is a normal precaution for most public access computers. The Windows Registry, the computer CMOS and the boot sector are protected by Deep Freeze from within Windows." }-
" }-
Deep Freeze protects the CMOS from within Windows by revoking certain rights in the admin account, so this protection is available to everyone.

[demoneye]

-{ Quote: "Deep Freeze protects the CMOS from within Windows by revoking certain rights in the admin account, so this protection is available to everyone." }-

Yeaha mann DF ownz ! 8)

[demoneye]

"You're logic, though interesting, is flawed"

not my logic is "flawed" BlueZannetti maybe your understanding? hehe

cheerss;D

[BlueZannetti]

-{ Quote: "not my logic is "flawed" BlueZannetti maybe your understanding? hehe" }-I understand what you wrote. You do not have any appreciation of deductive logic or the use of evidence to support a position. It is as simple as that.

Blue

[EASTER]

-{ Quote: "FDISR is heavy canon which can supply the "from scarcth" if all fails

cherrs" }-

I found this very true but now only for those who carry this cannon. The program is not the same as before.

I still am in complete AWE of any developers who exercise the forethought of designing fall back measures, and those archives have literally saved me from not only myself but windows own limitations, not to mention malware.

But that is now all but a mute subject, lets stay focused on the present, and that is the leading topic between SD & DF.

I favor the concept of DP but possess little to no real understanding just how effective Shadow Defender can be when put up against the likes of DF, and is why i kindly take a back seat to the rest of this discussion because theres more users need to read of the advantages and/or limitations of both.

Thanks

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "I found this very true but now only for those who carry this cannon. The program is not the same as before.

I still am in complete AWE of any developers who exercise the forethought of designing fall back measures, and those archives have literally saved me from not only myself but windows own limitations, not to mention malware.

But that is now all but a mute subject, lets stay focused on the present, and that is the leading topic between SD & DF.

I favor the concept of DP but possess little to no real understanding just how effective Shadow Defender can be when put up against the likes of DF, and is why i kindly take a back seat to the rest of this discussion because theres more users need to read of the advantages and/or limitations of both.

Thanks" }-

Easter from my tests it works fine. Not sure I see much difference in the concept. Mainly differences in implementation based on the general market target.

[lucas1985]

-{ Quote: "Yeaha mann DF ownz ! 8)" }-
You don't have to install DF in order to protect the CMOS. A bit of tweaking and you're ready to go.

[EASTER]

-{ Quote: "You don't have to install DF in order to protect the CMOS. A bit of tweaking and you're ready to go." }-

As in..............?

You care to share this protection method? I assume it's a manual mod.

[lucas1985]

-{ Quote: "You care to share this protection method? I assume it's a manual mod." }-
LUA (Limited User Account) is the simplest one.
If I dig a bit on TechNet, I'm sure that I can find how to strip these rights (access to CMOS) from the admin account.

[demoneye]

-{ Quote: "You don't have to install DF in order to protect the CMOS. A bit of tweaking and you're ready to go." }-

yap ...can u share with us how to protect the cmos ?? but DF has it as an add-on, not main feature.

cheers:P

[EASTER]

-{ Quote: "yap ...can u share with us how to protect the cmos ?? but DF has it as an add-on, not main feature.

cheers:P" }-

I like to see something like this as a standalone app to protect CMOS.

[lucas1985]

-{ Quote: "yap ...can u share with us how to protect the cmos ?? but DF has it as an add-on, not main feature." }-
IIRC, even Faronics states that the protection for the CMOS is a simple tweak in the permissions of the admin account. Protecting the CMOS by default without user intervention is the right thing to do for an application targeted to static systems (as Blue has pointed)
Protecting the CMOS without user consent would be a disaster for applications targeting dynamic environments (Returnil, Shadow Defender, etc).

[demoneye]

-{ Quote: "LUA (Limited User Account) is the simplest one.
If I dig a bit on TechNet, I'm sure that I can find how to strip these rights (access to CMOS) from the admin account." }-


there is no a "click away" esy method to give a good protection to the cmos mate. actuley any free AV around alert and block for such axx. but DF isnt AV like AV aint DF and doesnt freeze nothing... if u get the point :)

cheers:D