What is ESET's Refund Policy?

[sockie]

After getting my computer infected and NOD32 happily not detecting there is a problem, I uninstalled it. Thing is, only 3 days before I renewed my subscription.

So anyhow, I wanted to find out how to get a refund since I'm withing 30 days of renewing which I thought is pretty much like a purchase.

I got my license from NOD32 Australia and my online enquiry has not resulted in any replies.

[Blackspear]

You would need to contact the Sales Office in Australia sales @ nod32.com.au however given that no antivirus in the world claims to detect 100% of what's out there 100% of the time and you have used the product and found it to work, I doubt very much that you are entitled to a refund.

There always has to be a "First" so called lucky person/group to receive a sample before detection, even with NOD32 having the worlds best Heuristic engine (through independent testing at www.av-comparatives.org), it simply can not catch everything generically.

No antivirus will ever detect 100% of what’s out there 100% of the time, this is simply not plausible. The Trojan ZLOB was on purposely changed several times a day and tested at www.virustotal.com in order to avoid detection. One of the solutions against this was to simply have IMON block all known websites that were purposely infecting users.

I personally have been the "lucky" person on 3 occasions in 4 years to receive a new virus/trojan. However in saying this I have seen dozens of times, including on the 2nd of October 2006, where NOD32 has detected new outbreaks Heuristically, see the following; the "variant" indicates Heuristic/Generic detection by NOD32, and this particular one is a really nasty worm designed to disable antivirus software.

__________ NOD32 1.1785 (20061002) Warning __________
Warning: NOD32 antivirus system found the following in the message:
Update-KB78-x86.zip - a variant of Win32/Stration worm - quarantined - deleted
Update-KB78-x86.zip > ZIP > Update-KB78-x86.exe - a variant of Win32/Stration - quarantined – deleted

Cheers ;D

[sockie]

All the antivirus vendors that I can think of (expect ESET?) have a 30 Day Money Back Guarantee. AVG does, Kaspersky does and so does Symantec, definitely. So if ESET doesn't have such a guarantee then I am very disappointed. Bit of money grab really, and unprofessional. I will not be recommending or dealing with ESET or their products again.

Incidentally, Kaspersky AV is a higher rating product than NOD32 and the TR of Version 7 is leap and bounds ahead of NOD32 and I would argue, ESS.

[Blackspear]

This is not a money grab, you have agreed that you have tested the product and found it to work on your system before purchasing. The refund policy is set by the local Distributors not ESET. As already suggested, you will need to contact the Australian Distributor.

Blackspear.

[TJP]

{QUOTE-> All the antivirus vendors that I can think of (expect ESET?) have a 30 Day Money Back Guarantee. AVG does, Kaspersky does and so does Symantec, definitely. So if ESET doesn't have such a guarantee then I am very disappointed. Bit of money grab really, and unprofessional. I will not be recommending or dealing with ESET or their products again <-QUOTE}
Have you sent an email to sales at nod32.com.au? What was the response? (When I emailed them about an issue, their response was fantastic).

One other detail to remember as the buyer; YOU need to check/ask for the terms & conditions before purchasing anything. There is little point in whining about company X because you've assumed the refund policy will mirror that of other companies.
{QUOTE-> Incidentally, Kaspersky AV is a higher rating product than NOD32 and the TR of Version 7 is leap and bounds ahead of NOD32 and I would argue, ESS. <-QUOTE}
I've run the latest TR versions of KAV & KIS and they are phenominal products. RAM usage when idle is unbelieveably low. However, I won't be changing AV's anytime soon...KAV & KIS didn't find anything Nod32 missed & I am more than happy with Eset's product.

[YeOldeStonecat]

It's just software, if you try it, and don't like it, uninstall it, and purchase another.

Haven't you ever purchased a game for your computer? They're usually twice as expensive as most antivirus products (and Eset is on the low side pricewise)...people purchase them all the time, sometimes barely play for a few hours, don't like..uninstall and shelf it and move on.

[The_Duality]

I recently switched to KAV, for no reason other than personal preference, and contacted ESET about a refund.

The result? No reply... :( Bit bad on the customer service there, but it doesnt really bother me that much, I wont bash them for it because they must receive thousands of e-mails each day! However, i am now out of the 30-day grace period... so no refund for me...

[webyourbusiness]

To clarify for those here in the USA the refund policy is 30 days. That is laid down by Eset out of San Diego - all of us resellers have to offer the same 30 day refund policy. I know we do - it's not worth the profit on the deal to have a customer who is upset with the refund policy running round giving negative press about the product and the refund policy (ie, doubly upset).

regards

Greg

[Blackspear]

{QUOTE-> ...only 3 days before I renewed my subscription. <-QUOTE}This is the key point here, the software was used for at the very least 1 year.

Blackspear.

[webyourbusiness]

{QUOTE-> This is the key point here, the software was used for at the very least 1 year.

Blackspear. <-QUOTE}

I noticed that - it's like buying a car, running it to the end of it's life and then asking for a refund right before it claps out ... not likely to receive a refund of ANY kind imo...

The US policy is 30 days FROM purchase - that's a fairly standard deal across software - we cancel the license, refund the card and no-one loses. If it goes BEYOND 30 days, we have some discretion to go a little further - I recently refused a refund from someone requesting it almost 5 months into the license, but also issued a refund in the same week for someone at 50 days or so into the license based on circumstances relating to this one purchaser.

As resellers, we have a duty to provide good customer service and care - that doesn't extend to refunding a 99% used software license though!

[Osaban]

{QUOTE-> All the antivirus vendors that I can think of (expect ESET?) have a 30 Day Money Back Guarantee. AVG does, Kaspersky does and so does Symantec, definitely. So if ESET doesn't have such a guarantee then I am very disappointed. Bit of money grab really, and unprofessional. I will not be recommending or dealing with ESET or their products again.

Incidentally, Kaspersky AV is a higher rating product than NOD32 and the TR of Version 7 is leap and bounds ahead of NOD32 and I would argue, ESS. <-QUOTE}

After a disastrous experience with Symantec, I bought Kaspersky AV and their dedicated firewall from a leading distributor in Milan Italy (the year was 2005). I paid 50 Euros (not cheap then). I got a sort of suite that had a blacklisted registration code. Kaspersky not only ignored my e-mails for months on end but they even refused in the end to change the registration code.

The bottom line: I lost 60 US dollars with Symantec and 60 US dollars with Kaspersky.

Don't call Eset 'unprofessional', and if you have got your money back from Symantec, AVG, and Kaspersky, then i'd probably think you 'd never be happy with anything.

[Blackspear]

One personal attack removed.

Blackspear.

[rodzilla]

{QUOTE-> All the antivirus vendors that I can think of (expect ESET?) have a 30 Day Money Back Guarantee. AVG does, Kaspersky does and so does Symantec, definitely. So if ESET doesn't have such a guarantee then I am very disappointed. Bit of money grab really, and unprofessional. I will not be recommending or dealing with ESET or their products again

Incidentally, Kaspersky AV is a higher rating product than NOD32 and the TR of Version 7 is leap and bounds ahead of NOD32 and I would argue, ESS. <-QUOTE}

sockie got his refund about six weeks ago. I guess he just forgot to mention it.

(Something must have gone wrong with "leap and bounds ahead of NOD32" ... he just bought a new NOD32 license.) :)

.

[steve1955]

Any AV that allows you to get infected is not going to detect the infection!:-if it did it would stop you being infected.(hope you get my drift!)
This could and does happen with any AV product from time to time,none are perfect,so I personally don't think this is grounds for a refund outside the 30 days in which one seems available for what seems any reason,but(unless I'm misunderstanding something)this user seems to be wanting one just before his 1yr subscrition renews?am I misunderstanding his post?

[webyourbusiness]

{QUOTE-> Any AV that allows you to get infected is not going to detect the infection!:-if it did it would stop you being infected.(hope you get my drift!) <-QUOTE}


I do - but that's only if you're in a vacuum - you have to rememebr that you can be infected today, get an update overnight and the infection be detected at your next scan or reboot. This is a VERY common situation - threats are found because someone submitted a threat - updates to definitions happen and rolled out to the userbase.

hth

Greg

[codpet]

{QUOTE-> All the antivirus vendors that I can think of (expect ESET?) have a 30 Day Money Back Guarantee. AVG does, Kaspersky does and so does Symantec, definitely. So if ESET doesn't have such a guarantee then I am very disappointed. Bit of money grab really, and unprofessional. I will not be recommending or dealing with ESET or their products again.

Incidentally, Kaspersky AV is a higher rating product than NOD32 and the TR of Version 7 is leap and bounds ahead of NOD32 and I would argue, ESS. <-QUOTE}

When our network got hit with the Spybot.Worm, no anti-virus picked it up; not one. You can't blame them for not being 100%.

No one in this world is 100%.

This is where me being a Network Technician came into play. I had to *work* with Symantec/NOD32/eSafe to get this threat added to their signature database. It took 2-3 days, but it was done.

[Capp]

I have to say that I am possibly over-confident in NOD32's ability to detect unknowns. I have an email account that I received hundreds, yes hundreds, of spam messages and viruses every day. Its my junk mail account I use for those useless registration websites.

I check the logs daily and I see the "probable unknown ....heuristics..." Message a few times a month. I always submit these to Eset or transfer them through threatnet. That, to me, is worth its weight in gold.

Like I said, it kinda makes me cocky when talking about it to other people. ;D;)

[Blackspear]

Ladies and Gentlemen, back to the topic at hand please.

Cheers

Blackspear.

[NOD32 user]

If

I have downloaded and tested a fully function NOD32 trial to check that

I am satisfied that the software is working properly on my system
and is suitable for my requirements for 30 days before I purchase,
and there is no claim that the product will detect 100% of threats 100% of the time
and the information provided clearly indicates that fact also applies to NOD32
and by agreeing to purchase I admit that the preceding points are true

then by what reasonable justification could I or anyone else who has done so expect a refund to be considered?

I am glad for the OP that clearly their issue has been thoroughly resolved to their aparent satisfaction since they have also now purchased a new licence.
I'm also glad for those that prefer to feel their informed and trialed deciscion to purchase should be reversible may wish to purchase elsewhere or not at all, but I would be even gladder for people to just realise the truth.

Cheers :)

[sockie]

Actually in Australia the refund policy is overridden by the ACCC.

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/268478/fromItemId/8135

I am drafting a letter to the ACCC as I feel NOD32 Australia's refund policy is not inline with the ACCC refund policy which is law in this country, a complaint has also been loged to the Office of Fair Trading Queensland re: second refund. Thanks

Also by blocking my email and not responding to issues with NOD32, NOD32 Australia has broken their agreement with me to provide support. In turn a refund is the only fair solution.

[The Hammer]

{QUOTE-> Actually in Australia the refund policy is overridden by the ACCC.

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/268478/fromItemId/8135

I am drafting a letter to the ACCC as I feel NOD32 Australia's refund policy is not inline with the ACCC refund policy which is law in this country, a complaint has also been loged to the Office of Fair Trading Queensland re: second refund. Thanks <-QUOTE}It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I hope someone with knowledge of the outcome posts back at the appropriate time.

[Triple Helix]

I think this is person is out of control as this is a Official NOD32 Technical Support Forum if you have a Sales problem you should contact the vendor not blab it all over here. ::)

TH

[sockie]

{QUOTE-> It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I hope someone with knowledge of the outcome posts back at the appropriate time. <-QUOTE}

I'll keep the forum updated unless I get banned, which is likely.

ACCC Complaint lodged Re: Sales and Refund Policy.

[Blackspear]

{QUOTE-> Actually in Australia the refund policy is overridden by the ACCC.

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/268478/fromItemId/8135 <-QUOTE}Let's have a look at those points shall we:

* are not of merchantable quality (i.e. a basic level of quality that would be reasonable to expect)
Not applicable. The Product is of merchantable quality, as attested by millions of users worldwide.

* are unfit for any purpose you made known to the seller, or can be inferred from the type of goods
Not applicable. The product is fit for its purpose and does so very effectively.

* don't match any description given of the goods (this would include corresponding with a photograph of the good)
Not applicable. Description given.

* are not free from defects.
Not applicable. Product works as described.


{QUOTE-> Also by blocking my email and not responding to issues with NOD32, NOD32 Australia has broken their agreement with me to provide support. In turn a refund is the only fair solution. <-QUOTE}And how exactly have you determined that they are "blocking" your email :wacko: ::)

Blackspear.

[NOD32 user]

{QUOTE-> I'll keep the forum updated unless I get banned, which is likely.

ACCC Complaint lodged Re: Sales and Refund Policy. <-QUOTE}You are of course free to do so, but having just read the ACCC page you linked to very carefully, IMHO not any of the four 'may be entitled to compensation' triggers mentioned can possibly apply given the points mentioned in my previous post in this thread (save repeating them again here).

I certainly don't feel the need, but I would certainly be prepared 'discuss' the point with the ACCC should the need arise.

Cheers :)

edit: Further reading
The following is quoted from the ACCC document 'Warranties & refunds'
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/322947/fromItemId/653915
{QUOTE-> Refunds
Generally, sellers do not have to give refunds, credit or exchanges if consumers:
• simply change their minds, decide they do not like the goods or have no use for them (except, for example, when door to door sales legislation provides for a cooling off period)
• have discovered they can buy the goods more cheaply elsewhere
• examined the goods before buying and ought to have seen any obvious fault
• had the defect drawn to their attention before buying (e.g. when the goods were labelled as seconds and faults were clearly marked), or
• damaged the good by unreasonable or unintended use.
It is a good idea to note defects on the original
invoice or sales docket, to avoid later disputes.
Sellers are entitled to ask for proof of purchase
when goods are returned. Sellers are not liable if:
• goods become unfit for a particular purpose after leaving their control, or
• it is unreasonable for the consumer to rely on the seller’s skill and judgment.
Such limitations must be fair and reasonable. <-QUOTE}

[The Hammer]

{QUOTE-> I think this is person is out of control as this is a Official NOD32 Technical Support Forum if you have a Sales problem you should contact the vendor not blab it all over here. ::)

TH <-QUOTE}1. sockie talks about a computer being infected which is a frequent topic here. 2.He also talks about the refund and licencing policy which is also discussed here from time to time. He also mentions an alledged lack of response from a vendor which is a topic now and then. So while I don't agree with the sockie regarding a refund, regulatory authorities have been known to surprise from time to time and I'd be interested in their view of this matter should they deem it appropriate to look into it as sockie apparently is asking them to do. Also the responses to sockie have thus far been reasonably correct and if the mods felt as you do the thread would have been closed.

[rodzilla]

~
sockie made his debut as an Instant Antivirus Guru on Wilders on 15 May 2007, namedropping Avira, F-Prot, F-Secure, Kaspersky, Norton, Bit Defender, AVG, Ewido, NOD32 and ESS ... and within the space of TWO DAYS of his arrival made the following memorable pontifications:

{QUOTE-> I love playing and testing AV products. <-QUOTE}{QUOTE-> Happily switched from NOD32 to Avira AntiVir. <-QUOTE}
{QUOTE-> KAV slowed my machine down too much and what annoyed me too was the crappy 4KB/sec download speeds I was getting when KAV was updating. Also, as mentioned in another thread, KAV missed a virus. <-QUOTE}
{QUOTE-> Avira is less resource hungry and in my case it detected and cleaned a virus that KAV neither saw and therefore could not remove. I think KAV is overhyped. <-QUOTE}
{QUOTE-> I tried BitDefender with Windows Vista and it made my PC a lot slower, I don't know why but my whole PC became frustrating to use. AVG seems like a good choice but the detection rates are a bit off. So at the moment I'm sticking to AntiVir - I prefer the look and feel of AVG though. <-QUOTE}
{QUOTE-> I run NOD32 on one, AntiVir on another and planned on running F-Secure on the third. <-QUOTE}
{QUOTE-> I'm looking very closely at AVG, they have improved so much, if they built in their Antimalware (ewido?) into AVG antivirus and not continue as two seperate products, I'd buy a license right now. <-QUOTE}
{QUOTE-> I guess no product is perfect, but I've always felt good carma from AVG. <-QUOTE}
{QUOTE-> Anyway, why wasn't Avira's AntiVir tested? It get's better results in AV-Comparatives than NOD32 / Norton AV 2007 and BD. <-QUOTE}
{QUOTE-> ESS Beta 1a is the best! Big thumbs up from me, I decided after running this beta for three days now that this is by far the best stand out product for me. <-QUOTE}
{QUOTE-> Perfect. Love this new ESET product. Not persevering with AVG anymore. <-QUOTE}
Jump forward a couple of weeks and we get into his "NOD32 refund" crap. After rubbishing ESET and the program and saying his request for a refund was being ignored, sockie didn't even have the common courtesy to let the forum know NOD32 Australia did reply to his email and that he did receive a refund!

But wait! ... there's more to come! (email addresses are deliberately obfuscated ... only imbeciles post other peoples' email address in spiderable format on public forums!)

Six weeks later, when sockie ordered another NOD32 license online, he was sent the following email:

{QUOTE-> ----- Original Message -----
From: "Online Orders"
To: <{sockie}#>
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 12:02 PM
Subject: Fw: NOD32 AU eGATE Order Form

Mr {sockie},

From the NOD32 Australia online purchase page .....

Sales Policy . . .
a.. You can download and evaluate fully functional NOD32 trial versions for 30 days.
b.. It is understood that you have already tested each product before purchase and
that you are satisfied that the software is working properly on your system and
is suitable for your requirements.
c.. ESET will do its best to fix any bugs and defects in the software in a timely manner,
but we cannot give refunds once licenses have been issued.

We gave you a refund a few weeks ago even though you publicly lied about us on Wilders Security Forums ... "I got my license from NOD32 Australia and my online enquiry has not resulted in any replies." The fact is that we replied to your email only 14 minutes after you sent it ... and we can *prove* you received and read that reply! (I note that to date you haven't even had the common courtesy to retract that lie!)

A quick look through your posts on Wilders shows a pattern of trivial complaints and derogatory comments about various antivirus programs. If it's not 100% perfect, you whine about it. You obviously expect too much ... no antivirus program will ever detect 100% of viruses 100% of the time.

I won't help you play your silly forum games! You have 24 hours to decide whether or not you wish to keep the NOD32 Single PC License we're sending you by separate email. After that, NO refund will be given!

Rod Fewster
NOD32 Australia
Phone 07 3325 2999 (9am-4pm EST Monday-Friday)
Website : http://www.nod32.com.au
email Support: support#nod32.com.au
Phone Support: 07 5597 4449 (9am-4pm EST Monday-Friday) <-QUOTE}
Obviously that email wasn't clear enough for sockie to understand. Two weeks later he wrote:

{QUOTE-> other party email contents removed - Blue <-QUOTE}
to which I replied:

{QUOTE-> ----- Original Message -----
From: <sales#nod32.com.au>
To: <{sockie}#>
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: Refund Request

Our online purchase page clearly states:
Sales Policy . . .
a.. You can download and evaluate fully functional NOD32 trial versions for 30 days.
b.. It is understood that you have already tested each product before purchase and
that you are satisfied that the software is working properly on your system and
is suitable for your requirements.
c.. ESET will do its best to fix any bugs and defects in the software in a timely manner,
but we cannot give refunds once licenses have been issued.

You publicly posted an outright lie about NOD32 Australia not responding to your email even though we replied ONLY FOURTEEN MINUTES after you sent your email (we can PROVE you received and read that reply!) then you rubbished NOD32 Australia in the same forum with "I will not be recommending or dealing with ESET or their products again. Incidentally, Kaspersky AV is a higher rating product than NOD32 and the TR of Version 7 is leap and bounds ahead of NOD32 and I would argue, ESS." only thirty minutes later.

You've got some nerve asking for ANOTHER refund!

<-QUOTE}
Next we read on Wilders:

{QUOTE-> Actually in Australia the refund policy is overridden by the ACCC

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index...romItemId/8135

I am drafting a letter to the ACCC as I feel NOD32 Australia's refund policy is not inline with the ACCC refund policy which is law in this country, a complaint has also been loged to the Office of Fair Trading Queensland re: second refund. <-QUOTE}
Judging by the post below, sockie appears to be something of an expert on the refund policies of antivirus vendors ...

{QUOTE-> All the antivirus vendors that I can think of (expect ESET?) have a 30 Day Money Back Guarantee. AVG does, Kaspersky does and so does Symantec, definitely. <-QUOTE}
... but whether or not he's an expert on ACCC and OFT refund policies remains to be seen.

{QUOTE-> Also by blocking my email and not responding to issues with NOD32, NOD32 Australia has broken their agreement with me to provide support. <-QUOTE}
"blocking my email" ?

sockie's emails sent from adam.com.au arrived OK, but emails he sent from live.com.au/msn.com/hotmail were consigned to the trashcan by our idiot filter as probable spam.

"Not responding to issues with NOD32" ?

"It has let my computer get infected. It is a faulty product and unfit for sale." is not an "issue". Had that been said by an inexperienced newbie then I'd consider it an unrealistic performance expectation, but coming from an obvious Antivirus Guru like suckie, I consider it outright stupidity!

sockie's "reason" for wanting a second refund is so ridiculous, it's laughable ... more than 25 million users worldwide would disagree with his "faulty product and unfit for sale" claptrap!

He certainly doesn't deserve another refund in view of his history and the circumstances ... and I don't believe he's entitled to one under ACCC and OFT guidelines.
~

[trjam]

Ban him.:thumbd:

[Inspector Clouseau]

Hey Rod ;D

Now that's really ridiculous asking for a 2nd refund. I mean if you don't like a product (for whatever reasons) you just stay away from that product, ask for a refund and that's it. Instead of this people need to publish their anger all over the internet. Software is a product which u can change daily. I assume you wouldn't do that with your car or with your house. The problem is that < $50 products make it possible to "fool around with it" and later complain about it. If you would have to pay significant more for software you wouldn't jump around from one program to another. Especially in Security Software that's the problem since it dropped in price constantly over the years due to competition.

The real reason is that people don't evaluate it enough before they buy something. I pointed out already why: It's "cheap" so in worst case we only waste about 30 to 50 Dollars (similar to a saturday night out)
Meanwhile they try something else and the "old" program is just sitting as installation file somewhere. Then there is this thought why should i waste 30 dollars, just let's get it back. And the game goes on like this. What people don't understand is that switching constantly AV solutions is even worse than having only a "average" program (not saying that NOD32 is average, it's just an example) installed. EVERY AV program will miss something. So basically you could refund EVERY av program weekly. The thing is how IMPORTANT is this missed thing? Now lets speak frankly, assuming i would have a network and the whole network got infected by rapid circulating worm or whatever i would seriously give first a warning to the vendor telling him that if that happens again he's out. (Depending on the drama how much damage and extra work was done maybe without a warning) HOWEVER... if i would find some strange "Spyware" i would submit the file to the vendor AS CUSTOMER. Usually customer submissions getting much higher priority in *EVERY* av company than just "undetected virus collector submission". That is because you want to show your customers that YOU DO CARE about them! First Customers, then Trial Users, then a long time nothing and then "Freak Submissions". We handle that here in our company exactly the same way and since i worked some time ago for ESET i can confirm that this is also the case for ESET. And that is the only way to go. Otherwise you put your priorities wrong and let your customers down. That said: Instead of complaining and asking for refund send the not detected samples to the vendor.

[Inspector Clouseau]

{QUOTE-> Ban him.:thumbd: <-QUOTE}

Then you make the drama even worse. He'll do *anything* to misscredit "you" (seen as product) in every possible situation.

[sockie]

On the advice of the ACCC I have a letter of demand, however once again email sent has bounced from your server.

-
The original message was received at Thu, 2 Aug 2007 17:42:34 +1000
from imap1.mail.adnap.net.au

~snip~ Blackspear

Can I be advised what email I am to send it to?

-

After calling NOD32 Australia I am convinced the "manager" running the operations is of very poor character.

I will be contacting ESET not NOD32 Australia, in writing and lodging my complaints.

The person I spoke too, calmly and rationally; certainly did not respond professionally or fairly.

I was treated to yelling, insults and unfounded allegations. I requested that the person give me his name 3 times. Not once was my question answered. At the end of the verbal abuse I received the phone was slammed down.

Your Sir run a very shady operation. Very shady indeed.

Now I have a letter that I have been advised to forward to you. What email shall I send it to.

Shame, Shame, Shame.

[sockie]

{QUOTE-> Then you make the drama even worse. He'll do *anything* to misscredit "you" (seen as product) in every possible situation. <-QUOTE}

If you overheard the sort of abuse server out by NOD32 Australia and the insults I think you may realise that "who ever" I spoke to does not need to be disscredited or misscredited. He did that very well himself.

[Marcos]

It looks to me this thread has turned into a battle between Sockie and the Australian distributor so I'll better draw it to a close to prevent further mutual attacks.