Coordinating Acronis and FDISR

[normanm]

I'm about to establish my first serious backup routine, a three part routine -- straight daily backup of data using SecondCopy, bi-weekly backup image using Acronis Home 10 and a daily snapshot with FDISR. I tried to find an FDISR manual before I bought the program so I wouldn't have to ask basic questions here, but none is on line, so...

What's the difference, in real terms, between an FDISR snapshot and an Acronis Image? Don't both, in effect, restore your HD to a previous state? I understand that FDISR is faster and more efficient, but aren't an "image" and a "snapshot" relatively the same?

I see others here use both programs. If they'd care to contribute their best practices, they would be a most useful guide.

Thank you,

mn

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> I'm about to establish my first serious backup routine, a three part routine -- straight daily backup of data using SecondCopy, bi-weekly backup image using Acronis Home 10 and a daily snapshot with FDISR. I tried to find an FDISR manual before I bought the program so I wouldn't have to ask basic questions here, but none is on line, so...

What's the difference, in real terms, between an FDISR snapshot and an Acronis Image? Don't both, in effect, restore your HD to a previous state? I understand that FDISR is faster and more efficient, but aren't an "image" and a "snapshot" relatively the same?

I see others here use both programs. If they'd care to contribute their best practices, they would be a most useful guide.

Thank you,

mn <-QUOTE}

HI mn

Yes and no. If all you have is FDISR with another snapshot, you can't recover from a hard disk failure which is the purpose of the image. That being said once you gain experience with FDISR there is indeed a way to recover.

Here is what I do.

I have of course my primary full working snapshot. I also have a secondary snapshot, which is strictly a stripped down snapshot, which only serves as a place to boot should I have problems.

I also have an off disk archive of the primary snapshot. I use this as my sort of working 2nd snapshot. I do this for several reasons. First it reduces space occupied on my main drive so imaging is faster. Secondly archive updates are significantly faster than snapahot updates. So if I want to test something, I'll update the archive, and install the test object. Then to make it go away, I boot to my secondary snapshot, and update the primary snapshot from the archive. I then boot back to the primary snapshot.

I update the archive quite frequently depending on what I am doing. At least once a day if not more.

I image the whole disk at least weekly, and more if I am going to try something major on my machine. Oh, and I always test restore the image. Only way to insure it works.

If you have any other questions, fire away.

Pete

[ErikAlbert]

normanm,
In the past I did my backups with ATI every day, so I had 7 images.
If one failed, I still had 6 other images to recover my harddisks.
Because ATI never failed, I now do backups on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday (unpair days), that makes 4 images.

I also archive my two main snapshots every day with FDISR.

I can assure you that FDISR and ATI are a very good team and I did alot of tests to convince myself.

Whatever you do, NEVER ditch your backup software (ATI), that is the most important one and a NECESSITY.
FDISR is more LUXURY, very handy and much faster than ATI to fix problems and much better than Windows System Restore.

[Longboard]

Manual here:
http://www.raxco.com/support/windows/fdisr/ISRHelp21.pdf
from Useful page here
http://www.raxco.com/support/windows/SupportOptions.cfm?product=fdisr&ProductVersion=fd

You may be better off getting to grips with FDISR by going through some of the threads here.
The manual is a bit "dry" in terms of visualising what can be done.

[ErikAlbert]

{QUOTE->
The manual is a bit "dry" in terms of visualising what can be done. <-QUOTE}
Very true. The manual just describes the FDISR-screens and if you pay good attention to these screens, you don't even need the manual for that. The several wizards also take care of that.

What can be done with FDISR is hardly explained in the manual, you have to figure that out yourself or with help of experienced FDISR-users.

Most manuals and help texts have that in common and they were never a big help for me.

[normanm]

{QUOTE-> HI mn

I image the whole disk at least weekly, and more if I am going to try something major on my machine. Oh, and I always test restore the image. Only way to insure it works.

Pete <-QUOTE}

Thanks very much, everyone. I'm not sure at the moment I understand working from "within" a snapshot, but let me read the manual and ask more specific questions later. However, Pete's comment about "test restore" the ATI image touches on a concern: I assume the only way to test restore is, in fact, to restore the image, which overwrites the disk, right? Suppose the image is corrupted; are you then disabling the very system you are tyring to backup? I know you can "verfiy" in ATI, but that's not what Pete is talking about. Is it?

mn

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> Thanks very much, everyone. I'm not sure at the moment I understand working from "within" a snapshot, but let me read the manual and ask more specific questions later. However, Pete's comment about "test restore" the ATI image touches on a concern: I assume the only way to test restore is, in fact, to restore the image, which overwrites the disk, right? Suppose the image is corrupted; are you then disabling the very system you are tyring to backup? I know you can "verfiy" in ATI, but that's not what Pete is talking about. Is it?

mn <-QUOTE}

You are right mn. In fact I don't "verify" images any more. What I do is mount them, just check, that I can browse, extract a file, etc, and then do a restore. Now the big what if question.... What if the image doesn't restore.

Good question. Okay. I assume somewhere you have a recovery type disk, That either allows reinstalling windows, or putting the system back like from the factory.

Before doing this having FDISR installed you make an archive of your system on another drive. Then if that first image fails to restore, you would use your recovery disk and put the system back like it came from the factory. Then install FDISR, and make a secondary snapshot. Boot to it, and then from the archive restore the primary snapshot. Then boot to it, and update the secondary. Thats's your failsafe.

Moving on like where I am, I have 3 or 4 sets of images. WHen I get ready to image, first thing I do is update my off disk archive. Then image and res tore. Assuming all goes well I am done. Should the restore fail, I just restore from a previous image, and then use the archive, as described above to bring myself current. I have tested this approach and it works.

Doing this will give you a double barreled confidence. First in using your images, and 2nd in what FDISR can do.

Pete

[ErikAlbert]

Normanm,
I admit my very first restorations with ATI were real thrillers, but that's the only way to do it.
I tested my restorations on not-empty harddisks, total erased (overwritten with zeroes) harddisks and restored even encrypted partitions. Each time successful. That's how I lost my fear of doing restorations.

Scheduled backups are possible in ATI and FDISR, but there is a difference.
ATI allows on time schedules and on demand schedules.
FDISR allows on time schedules, but not on demand schedules.
The trouble with on time schedules is that your computer must be ON at that time and that's a problem for me.
That's the reason why I can't use schedules in FDISR and have to archive my snapshots manually every day. :(

[normanm]

All right, I read the FDISR help files, and I have to ask some really basic questions. I don't make my living working on software or hardware; I teach. All I want to do is develop safe backups. That said, I don't think I get the concepts behind ISR.

With Acronis, it seems straight-forward: you make an image of your HD; something goes wrong; you "restore" that image which then overwrites your disk, in effect returning it to the state you had before you did something wrong. Right?

With ISR, you also create images, or so the help files say. These images are called SNAPSHOTS. A snapshot is what, then? A file? Okay, something goes wrong and you want to rollback your HD to its previous state. Restore the whole system. Here's where I get lost. The help files talking about booting from a snapshot. So you boot your computer from a snapshot that is an image of your computer when it was working. Fine. I get that. How do you then restore? Does the program work like Acronis?

Thanks for the patience, everyone.

mn

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> All right, I read the FDISR help files, and I have to ask some really basic questions. I don't make my living working on software or hardware; I teach. All I want to do is develop safe backups. That said, I don't think I get the concepts behind ISR.

With Acronis, it seems straight-forward: you make an image of your HD; something goes wrong; you "restore" that image which then overwrites your disk, in effect returning it to the state you had before you did something wrong. Right?

With ISR, you also create images, or so the help files say. These images are called SNAPSHOTS. A snapshot is what, then? A file? Okay, something goes wrong and you want to rollback your HD to its previous state. Restore the whole system. Here's where I get lost. The help files talking about booting from a snapshot. So you boot your computer from a snapshot that is an image of your computer when it was working. Fine. I get that. How do you then restore? Does the program work like Acronis?

Thanks for the patience, everyone.

mn <-QUOTE}

Hi Mn

First to understand FDISR, put acronis out of your mind. It does pretty much what you say, and it is essential in case your hard drive fails.

Now to FDISR. Simply put, what FDISR does is make a working copy of your c:\ drive. Once made you can update this "snapshot" at any time. FDISR gives you the option of booting into that snapshot should you choose. Whats the point. Okay. Say you want to test a new piece of software, you would first update the 2nd snapshot. THis would be much quicker than taking an image with Acronis. You install new software, and it makes a mess of your system. Say it even hoses your system, so you can barely boot to it. You can right at the start of the boot, select your other snapshot, which would be fine. You could then do a copy/update, and completely fix the damaged snapshot. Yes you can accomplish the same thing to a degree with acronis, but not nearly as fast.

This is but one of many uses of FDISR. It's only limit is your imagination, once you grasp the concepts.

Pete

[normanm]

{QUOTE-> Say you want to test a new piece of software, you would first update the 2nd snapshot. THis would be much quicker than taking an image with Acronis. You install new software, and it makes a mess of your system. Say it even hoses your system, so you can barely boot to it. You can right at the start of the boot, select your other snapshot, which would be fine. You could then do a copy/update, and completely fix the damaged snapshot. Yes you can accomplish the same thing to a degree with acronis, but not nearly as fast.

Pete <-QUOTE}

Thanks for the patience, Pete. Let me ask an even more basic question, this to help me understand "snapshots": When FD is installed it creates a primary snapshot of your system, and image file, correct? That image file/snapshop is like a virtual disk, right? It is separate and apart from the actual physical hard drive that holds all the files that run the system, that, in effect, are the system. So you install FD and it makes a primary snapshot of your system. This is your baseline snapshot; this is what the system looks like when it seems to be working fine. The you decide your going to install a program. Here's where I go astray. I have my primary snapshot at this point and nothing else.

1. Do I make a second snapshop BEFORE I install the new software. And then do I install the software INTO the second image?

You can see that I can't see whether I'm working from within images or from the HD. Or is my conceptual thinking wrong here. Are we always working from snapshots, FD or no FD? In other words, is the HD in effect an image? Or do snapshots when they are restored (copied) REWRITE THE HD, in effect returning it to a prior state.

mn

[stapp]

As a fairly new user of FD myself I can understand how confusing the concept is at first, I can even remember asking Peter at one point how I booted into windows!

I am sure someone will give you all the info you need but for what it's worth, this is how I told it to myself at first to get my head around it.

Once I made my primary snapshot I made a secondary one, which is in basic terms a just a copy of the primary.
I test software in primary and then if I want to keep the software I update(or copy to) the secondary so it now also has the new software.
If on the other hand the new software screws up my primary, or I really don't like it, I boot into the secondary snapshot and tell it to make the primary the same(copy/update) This returns the primary to the state it was before the new software as it is a copy of the secondary which didn't have the software on it.
Therefore I ALWAYS copy/update my primary to the secondary before testing or dodgy sites surfing so that I can revert back to the "good" snapshot if it all goes wrong.

I have even now ( with Peter's help) made a snapshot on an external hard drive which I also keep updated regularly just in case I had a hard drive failure!

I really love this software, it has made a real difference to the way I use my computer.

[ErikAlbert]

normanm,
You better compare snapshots with pseudo-partitions inside the real partition [C:].
Snapshots are real, not virtual environments.
Each snapshot is INDEPENDENT, so there is no baseline snapshot, like in RollbackRx.
You can copy/update or delete or rename any snapshot, primary and secondary are just names.

The normal recommended usage of FDISR is like this :
1. The primary snapshot is your WORK snapshot.
2. The secondary snapshot is your ROLLBACK snapshot.
Both are created during the installation of FDISR : FDISR creates the primary and you create the secondary.

You need at least TWO snapshots, otherwise you kill the main feature of FDISR : Immediate System Recovery.

You install new software first in your WORK snapshot and test it.
If the new software screws up your WORK snapshot, you still can boot in your ROLLBACK snapshot and recover your WORK snapshot from there.
If you don't like the new software, you copy/update from ROLLBACK snapshot to WORK snapshot and the software is gone in your WORK snapshot.
If you like the new software, you copy/update from WORK snapshot to ROLLBACK snapshot and both snapshots will have the new software installed.

Each time you copy/update you create two IDENTICAL snapshots.

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> normanm,
You better compare snapshots with pseudo-partitions inside the real partition [C:].
Snapshots are real, not virtual environments.
Each snapshot is INDEPENDENT, so there is no baseline snapshot, like in RollbackRx.
You can copy/update or delete or rename any snapshot, primary and secondary are just names.

The normal recommended usage of FDISR is like this :
1. The primary snapshot is your WORK snapshot.
2. The secondary snapshot is your ROLLBACK snapshot.
Both are created during the installation of FDISR : FDISR creates the primary and you create the secondary.

You need at least TWO snapshots, otherwise you kill the main feature of FDISR : Immediate System Recovery.

You install new software first in your WORK snapshot and test it.
If the new software screws up your WORK snapshot, you still can boot in your ROLLBACK snapshot and recover your WORK snapshot from there.
If you don't like the new software, you copy/update from ROLLBACK snapshot to WORK snapshot and the software is gone in your WORK snapshot.
If you like the new software, you copy/update from WORK snapshot to ROLLBACK snapshot and both snapshots will have the new software installed.

Each time you copy/update you create two IDENTICAL snapshots. <-QUOTE}

Well said.

Pete

[normanm]

{QUOTE->
The normal recommended usage of FDISR is like this :
1. The primary snapshot is your WORK snapshot.
2. The secondary snapshot is your ROLLBACK snapshot.
Both are created during the installation of FDISR : FDISR creates the primary and you create the secondary.

You need at least TWO snapshots, otherwise you kill the main feature of FDISR : Immediate System Recovery.

You install new software first in your WORK snapshot and test it.
If the new software screws up your WORK snapshot, you still can boot in your ROLLBACK snapshot and recover your WORK snapshot from there.
If you don't like the new software, you copy/update from ROLLBACK snapshot to WORK snapshot and the software is gone in your WORK snapshot.
If you like the new software, you copy/update from WORK snapshot to ROLLBACK snapshot and both snapshots will have the new software installed.

Each time you copy/update you create two IDENTICAL snapshots. <-QUOTE}

ErikAlbert,

Many thanks indeed for taking the time. I'm beginning to get it. A clarification please: When FD is installed and you boot up in the morning, are you booting into the WORK snapshot on the HD or just the plain old HD? Put another way, is the WORK snapshot actually the HD? You said, snapshots are like "pseudo-partitions inside the real partition," or C:\. I assume you are still doing your daily work inside C:\, not a snapshot of same.

mn

[Acadia]

You are booting into the Snapshot that you last used. That Snapshot is only a portion of you entire hard drive if you have other Snapshots, and I hope that you do have other Snapshots or else FirstDefense is useless, but for all intents and purposes, the Snapshot that you are booting into is the only c:drive that you can see or do anything with.

Each Snapshot is like a c:drive onto itself; it is like having many c:drives. They are ALL stored on your hard drive, but you can only see one at a time. Each Snapshot carries equal weight. If you were to uninstall FirstDefense, whatever Snapshot that you are in at the time, would now be your one and only c:drive. 8)

Acadia

[ErikAlbert]

Normanm,

Acadia explained it very well.

In addition :

If you don't do anything, you will boot in the last used snapshot, just like Acadia said.

If you press the F1-key on the FDISR Splash Screen, that appears BEFORE Windows starts, you get a view of all existing snapshots. Select the one you need and FDISR will boot in the selected snapshot.

If you restart Windows via the Start-button, you will reboot in the same snapshot, unless you press the F1-key in
the FDISR Splash Screen and select another snapshot.

You also can boot in another snapshot via the main screen of FDISR.
Right Click on the snapshot you need and click on "Boot to Snapshot".
In that case, the FDISR Splash Screen will not show the F1-key, because you selected the snapshot already.

There is so much to tell about FDISR, but you have to learn the basic things first.

[normanm]

A heartfelt thanks to all. Got most of it, enough to begin installing the program. As a precaution, I got a year of technical phone support, so I can get questions, including conceptual ones, answered quickly. BTW, I came to FDISR after a hard disk disaster involving an uninstaller that wreaked havoc on my drive. I thought, no problem, I'll just use my last daily XP restore point. Well, three days later after reinstalling every program on the drive, I started to search for an alternative -- a reliable alternative. Glad to hear most of the list have been able to count on FDISR to recover. (I also got the lastest Acronis as well.) Again, folks, thanks. A good list.

mn

[screamer]

mn,

This thread will give you a gist of the possibilities w/ FD-ISR.

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=160242&highlight=fd-isr

hth,

...screamer

[ErikAlbert]

{QUOTE-> A heartfelt thanks to all. Got most of it, enough to begin installing the program. As a precaution, I got a year of technical phone support, so I can get questions, including conceptual ones, answered quickly. BTW, I came to FDISR after a hard disk disaster involving an uninstaller that wreaked havoc on my drive. I thought, no problem, I'll just use my last daily XP restore point. Well, three days later after reinstalling every program on the drive, I started to search for an alternative -- a reliable alternative. Glad to hear most of the list have been able to count on FDISR to recover. (I also got the lastest Acronis as well.) Again, folks, thanks. A good list.

mn <-QUOTE}
Normanm,
Windows System Restore only works, when you still can boot into Windows.
If the disaster doesn't allow you to boot in Windows anymore, the Windows System Restore will be USELESS.

You have two possibilities to solve this situation :
1. Use the Acronis Rescue CD and restore an image from an external harddisk, which is the slowest method.
2. Use the F1-key on the FDISR Splash Screen and boot in your ROLLBACK snapshot, which is the fastest method. It only takes a reboot.

It depends on how fast you want to be back in business. :)

[normanm]

{QUOTE->
2. Use the F1-key on the FDISR Splash Screen and boot in your ROLLBACK snapshot, which is the fastest method. It only takes a reboot. <-QUOTE}

I've been reading a bit. Can somone tell me which of the methods mentioned here -- re: snapshots -- applies to FDSIR?
Thank you.

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/tivoli/library/t-snaptsm1/index.html

[normanm]

ErikAlbert,

In another thread you wrote:

{QUOTE-> It's F1 key, not F10.
The F1 key gives you an overview of all available bootable snapshots.
Choose the one you need and FDISR will boot in that snapshot.
The F1 key isn't visible, when you boot to a snapshot inside FDISR, because you choosed the snapshot already.
<-QUOTE}

"When you boot to a snapshot inside FDISR..." This really helps. So without a preboot choice, or if you DO NOT have preboot selected (I assume you have that choice) you're booting to the physical disk. If you do boot into ANY snapshot, even your primary, the one FD makes on installation, you are working from WITHIN that snapshot, yes? IF that's true, what happens to the writes/reads/edits you make in the SNAPSHOT? Are they (the changes) written to disk too? I'm trying to understand whether on an average working day, everything going fine, you are working from the HD or from within a snapshot -- which you have described as a pseudo-partition. Thank you.

mn

[stapp]

Normann, once you install FD and make a primary snapshot and and secondary one for backup and failsafe, there are no other choices to boot into.
When I turn on my computer it boots to primary unless I tell it different or, if I shut down the previous evening in secondary for any reason, it will boot into that. The icon at the bottom of the screen will always tell you which snapshot you are in.

Any virus updates etc at the end of the day when I update all my workings to my secondary snapshot, are copied over. If I forgot to do it and booted into secondary the next day, it would auto update (if set to do so) as it would know it needed them.

If you haven't already done so, give it a go, you won't regret it.

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> ErikAlbert,

In another thread you wrote:



"When you boot to a snapshot inside FDISR..." This really helps. So without a preboot choice, or if you DO NOT have preboot selected (I assume you have that choice) you're booting to the physical disk. If you do boot into ANY snapshot, even your primary, the one FD makes on installation, you are working from WITHIN that snapshot, yes? IF that's true, what happens to the writes/reads/edits you make in the SNAPSHOT? Are they (the changes) written to disk too? I'm trying to understand whether on an average working day, everything going fine, you are working from the HD or from within a snapshot -- which you have described as a pseudo-partition. Thank you.

mn <-QUOTE}

Norman

Once you boot inside a snapshot it is like working on your c: drive period. Just you can choose which version of your c: drive.

Yes you can turn off the preboot, but that is a terribly bad idea unless you also have a good working image of your system. If you do somoething that corrupts your system and preboot is off, then FDISR is useless to you.

The only reason we used to turn off preboot was to image the disk. It is no longer necessary.

Pete

[ErikAlbert]

{QUOTE-> ErikAlbert,

In another thread you wrote:



"When you boot to a snapshot inside FDISR..." This really helps. So without a preboot choice, or if you DO NOT have preboot selected (I assume you have that choice) you're booting to the physical disk. If you do boot into ANY snapshot, even your primary, the one FD makes on installation, you are working from WITHIN that snapshot, yes? IF that's true, what happens to the writes/reads/edits you make in the SNAPSHOT? Are they (the changes) written to disk too? I'm trying to understand whether on an average working day, everything going fine, you are working from the HD or from within a snapshot -- which you have described as a pseudo-partition. Thank you.

mn <-QUOTE}
Normally, the Preboot in FDISR is always ENABLED and keep it that way, otherwise you won't see the FDISR Splash Screen with the F1-key anymore.
The F1-key allows you to boot in the good ROLLBACK snapshot, when the WORK snapshot is in trouble.

Once you are booted in a snapshot all changes are stored on your harddisk, while all other snapshots remain unchanged. You can only boot and work in ONE snapshot.
That snapshot has a GREEN arrow in the main screen and is also called the ACTIVE snapshot, which is normally your WORK snapshot on an average working day.
All other snapshots have a YELLOW arrow and are sleeping.

Where are your personal files stored ? On the same harddisk and partition as Windows ?

[normanm]

{QUOTE->
Where are your personal files stored ? On the same harddisk and partition as Windows ? <-QUOTE}

Yes, like Pete, I think. I'm a one partition man. An 80 GB but only, really, one-sixth full, so I didn't bother to partition.

mn

[ErikAlbert]

{QUOTE-> Yes, like Pete, I think. I'm a one partition man. An 80 GB but only, really, one-sixth full, so I didn't bother to partition.

mn <-QUOTE}
In that case you have to ANCHOR the folder "My Documents".
I don't know if this is mandatory, but Peter will tell you that.
I don't need any anchoring, because I stored all my personal data on another partition.

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> In that case you have to ANCHOR the folder "My Documents".
I don't know if this is mandatory, but Peter will tell you that.
I don't need any anchoring, because I stored all my personal data on another partition. <-QUOTE}

No he won't. I don't anchor anymore, because my only other snapshot, is a bare stripped down snapshot for booting purposes.. I want all the data in the archive up to date.

Pete

[ErikAlbert]

{QUOTE-> No he won't. I don't anchor anymore, because my only other snapshot, is a bare stripped down snapshot for booting purposes.. I want all the data in the archive up to date.

Pete <-QUOTE}
Does that mean that normanm has also that bare stripped down snapshot like you ?
If not, doesn't he need to anchor then ?

[Acadia]

Erik, I have to agree with Peter on this one, anchoring is a handy feature for many folks, but why would he "have to" anchor? ???

Acadia

[normanm]

{QUOTE-> No he won't. I don't anchor anymore, because my only other snapshot, is a bare stripped down snapshot for booting purposes.. I want all the data in the archive up to date. <-QUOTE}

1. Wouldn't the necessity of anchoring depend on how you use FD and how you work. For example, let's say you're writing a book and doing e-mail and downloading music files every day. After work, you decide to experiment with a new program. You make a second snapshot, ROLLBACK. You install the new program in your MAIN snapshot; its a disaster. You reboot into ROLLBACK and restore/copy MAIN (I might be using the wrong terminology here). You wouldn't lose any data at all. That would be the way I'd use the program. Thinking of it this way, your "data," which could be spread over many folders (when you don't partition) will always be current.

2. Does the program refresh/update your MAIN snapshot every day?

3. Reading the help files, it looks like data anchoring is mainly intended to reduce the size of snapshots. Anchoring is confusing since the manual clear states "each snapshot contains a copy of all your files on the system drive." Then it says, "you DO want to anchor....so that if you have to boot to an alternate snapshot, you don't lose these files." BUT won't that alternate snapshot contain those files in the first place?

[ErikAlbert]

{QUOTE-> Erik, I have to agree with Peter on this one, anchoring is a handy feature for many folks, but why would he "have to" anchor? ???

Acadia <-QUOTE}
My assumption is like this :

A. If you don't anchor the folder "My Documents"
You create an independent folder "My Documents" in EACH snapshot.
If you add a new document in the WORK snapshot, that new document won't be stored in the ROLLBACK snapshot.
If you edit an existing document in the WORK snapshot, that document won't be changed in the ROLLBACK snapshot.
And that must be very confusing.

B. If you anchor the folder "My Documents".
The same folder "My Documents" will be used by all snapshots.
If you add a new document in the WORK snapshot, that new document will also be stored in the ROLLBACK snapshot.
If you edit an existing document in the WORK snapshot, that document will also be changed in the ROLLBACK snapshot.

So IMO anchoring is necessary otherwise you have TWO folders "My Documents", just like you have two Windows in both snapshots.

[normanm]

{QUOTE-> My assumption is like this :

A. If you don't anchor the folder "My Documents"
You create an independent folder "My Documents" in EACH snapshot.
If you add a new document in the WORK snapshot, that new document won't be stored in the ROLLBACK snapshot.
If you edit an existing document in the WORK snapshot, that document won't be changed in the ROLLBACK snapshot.
And that must be very confusing.

B. If you anchor the folder "My Documents".
The same folder "My Documents" will be used by all snapshots.
If you add a new document in the WORK snapshot, that new document will also be stored in the ROLLBACK snapshot.
If you edit an existing document in the WORK snapshot, that document will also be changed.

So IMO anchoring is necessary otherwise you have TWO folders "My Documents", just like you have two Windows in both snapshots. <-QUOTE}

Would depend on when you made ROLLBACK. Thinking about this, though, if -- on a one partition drive -- you did take the time to go through all the apps in which you create data and anchor those folders/directories, then the data in ROLLBACK would always be current. I guess I was assuming that I'd always make a fresh ROLLBACK whenever I tried to change something on the system. But then if something happened on its own during normal use, I can see where one's ROLLBACK might be days old and contain data files that had been changed in the interim.

[ErikAlbert]

{QUOTE-> Would depend on when you made ROLLBACK. Thinking about this, though, if -- on a one partition drive -- you did take the time to go through all the apps in which you create data and anchor those folders/directories, then the data in ROLLBACK would always be current. I guess I was assuming that I'd always make a fresh ROLLBACK whenever I tried to change something on the system. But then if something happened on its own during normal use, I can see where one's ROLLBACK might be days old and contain data files that had been changed in the interim. <-QUOTE}
Test it out and you will know for sure, that's how you will understand FDISR better and better.

[Acadia]

Oh, I have never used Rollback, so I should excuse myself from this discussion. (Why in the world would someone want both FirstDefense AND Rollback on the same system?)

Acadia

[ErikAlbert]

{QUOTE-> Oh, I have never used Rollback, so I should excuse myself from this discussion. (Why in the world would someone want both FirstDefense AND Rollback on the same system?)

Acadia <-QUOTE}
We are not talking about RollbackRx, we are talking about a snapshot used as a rollback snapshot (= secondary snapshot)

[Acadia]

OH!! :blink:

Acadia

[ErikAlbert]

Well, I've done some tests and it was like I expected.

A. If you don't anchor the folder "My Documents".
1. Your WORK snapshot has its own folder "My Documents"
2. Your ROLLBACK snapshot has also its own folder "My Documents", which isn't necessarily the same as the folder "My Documents" in your WORK snapshot.
Both folders have their own life.
You can imagine what will happen, if you copy/update from ROLLBACK snapshot to WORK snapshot.
The folder "My Documents" of the WORK snapshot will be equal to the folder "My Documents" of the ROLLBACK snapshot and that will be a disaster. If the folder of the ROLLBACK snapshot is empty you will lose all your documents in your WORK snapshot during copy/update.

B. If you anchor the folder "My Documents".
The folder "My Documents" is shared by all snapshots and that's the correct way.
The copy/update from ROLLBACK snapshot to WORK snapshot won't affect your folder "My Documents", because anchored folders are excluded in all snapshots.

So if you use a WORK and ROLLBACK snapshot in FDISR, you better anchor the folder "My Documents" or it will be a mess.

I don't have to anchor, because I moved "My Documents" to another partition.
I don't have a ROLLBACK snapshot, it's more a RECOVERY snapshot, but that is my personal improvisation.
And Peter's version is also an improvisation that doesn't need any anchoring.

[normanm]

Thanks, again, all. I just have to decide whether Pete's approach (no anchoring) or Erik's is my best protection. Some of the conceptual issues I raised are answered here

http://www.leapfrogsoftware.com/support_info/faq/

I'm installing today and I'm sure I'll be back to the list for more advice.

mn

[ErikAlbert]

{QUOTE-> Thanks, again, all. I just have to decide whether Pete's approach (no anchoring) or Erik's is my best protection. Some of the conceptual issues I raised are answered here

http://www.leapfrogsoftware.com/support_info/faq/

I'm installing today and I'm sure I'll be back to the list for more advice.

mn <-QUOTE}
Keep in mind that FDISR starts with a WORK snapshot (primary) and a ROLLBACK snapshot (secondary) and that you have to anchor your folder "My Documents" immediately after that.

Improvising on FDISR is at your own risk and requires some thinking before.

[kneighbour]

Ah - I think I am beginning to understand the difference between FD-ISR and RollbackRx.

FD-ISR keeps (say) two full copies of your hard disk - and you can swap between the two of them. And you can update changes from one to the other.

The BIG problem (as I see it) here, if this is how it works, is that you have now halved the size of your hard disk! If you have 4 snapshots, now your hard disk is effectively 1/4 the size. Surely this is a huge drawback? Or am I missing something here?

I would also imagine that updating snapshots would be terribly slow. Let us say that you have a 350 gig hard drive, with two snapshots on it. It update one to the other, you would have to scan/read/write 175 gigs!

Do I have the concept correct?

[Acadia]

Not quite. If you have a 350g hard drive but only 5 gig of data, then you still have 345gig of empty space. If you make a second snapshot you now have 10 gig of data, and still have 340gig of free space which FirstDefense never touches. Updating 5 gig of data on my system only takes 2-3 minutes.

Acadia

[Peter2150]

On this Data Anchoring thing. Erik you still don't quite have it.

If you Anchor My documents, then there is only one copy of the whatever is in My Documents on the drive and it is "Shared" by both snapshots.

If you Don't anchor My Documents, then there are two copies of everything.

Note if you have My Documents anchored and remove anchoring, the next copy/update will be longer and add everything to the 2nd snapshot.

There are advantages and disadvantages both ways.

One advantage to anchoring is if you start working in say your "main" snapshot, and have been saving data, and something bad happens and you have to go to the "rollback" snapshot, then your data would still be there.

One advantage to not anchoring. Say you have office 2003 installed and want to test Office 2007, but not take a chance on your data. You can install 2007 in "Rollback" and play away, messing with your data. Then when done if you go back to "main" and copy/update "rollback" everthing including your data will be restored.

The only time I ever had a problem not anchoring was after downloading morning emails in outlook, I had a system freeze and had to use FDISR to fix it. Lost those emails. Solution was simple. Just have Outlook leave email on server two days. Solved that problem.

The way I am now using FDISR yes it is almost mandatory I don't anchor, but it is working so well, it isn't an issue.

Hope this clarifies.

Pete

[ErikAlbert]

Peter,
Suppose a user creates two snapshots as recommended, but he doesn't anchor My Documents. So each snapshots has a folder My Documents with an equal contents right after installation.

He works two months in his primary snapshot without any problems and he keeps on using the same softwares.
After two months he installs a new software and this software screws up his primary snapshot.

He does a copy/update from secondary to primary snapshot as recommended to recover his primary snapshot.
What do you think what will happen to the folder "My Documents" of the primary snapshot ?
IMO this user will have a two-month old folder "My Documents" and all the rest is gone.

This would not have happen when he anchored My Documents two months back.


http://www.raxco.com/support/windows/fdisr/fdisr_faqs.cfm#4
{QUOTE->
What is Data Anchoring and why would I use it?

When you make a snapshot of your system drive, FirstDefense-ISR copies everything - including any documents, spreadsheets, etc. that may be found on the drive. An example of this would be files found in Documents and Settings. If you boot into a snapshot, the files in that Documents and Settings folder would be current only to the time that the snapshot was created - which means that updates to files/documents may be lost.

Data Anchoring allows files/documents to be accessable to any snapshot that you are booted into as anchored files are not copied when a snapshot is created or updated. This means that if your system fails to boot and you end up booting into an alternate snapshot, anchored data is available while booted into that snapshot and is current.
<-QUOTE}

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> Peter,
Suppose a user creates two snapshots as recommended, but he doesn't anchor My Documents. So each snapshots has a folder My Documents with an equal contents right after installation.

He works two months in his primary snapshot without any problems and he keeps on using the same softwares.
After two months he installs a new software and this software screws up his primary snapshot.

He does a copy/update from secondary to primary snapshot as recommended to recover his primary snapshot.
What do you think what will happen to the folder "My Documents" of the primary snapshot ?
IMO this user will have a two-month old folder "My Documents" and all the rest is gone.

This would not have happen when he anchored My Documents two months back.


http://www.raxco.com/support/windows/fdisr/fdisr_faqs.cfm#4 <-QUOTE}

Erik

In this scenario the user has neglected the most important piece of software he has: His brains.

Whether it's an archive or snapshot, I always updated it daily. Certainly before the install of new software.

If some is going to do something, eh..... STUPID, then they could mess it up with data anchoring.;D

Cheers,

Pete

[ErikAlbert]

{QUOTE-> Erik

In this scenario the user has neglected the most important piece of software he has: His brains.

Whether it's an archive or snapshot, I always updated it daily. Certainly before the install of new software.

If some is going to do something, eh..... STUPID, then they could mess it up with data anchoring.;D

Cheers,

Pete <-QUOTE}
Right, but tell that to a new user of FDISR, who forgot to anchor.

[stapp]

I know compared to you guys I am just a baby with FD, but I have never anchored my documents as I update my snapshot every day. My external about every 3 or 4 days.

It suits me to do it this way, also with av updates, downloads and the like, I prefer to keep my secondary up to date malware wise.

[ErikAlbert]

{QUOTE-> I know compared to you guys I am just a baby with FD, but I have never anchored my documents as I update my snapshot every day. My external about every 3 or 4 days.

It suits me to do it this way, also with av updates, downloads and the like, I prefer to keep my secondary up to date malware wise. <-QUOTE}
Suppose you work 6 hours in your primary snapshot, editing your documents, spreadsheets, etc.
Then you try a new software and it goes wrong so bad that you have to refresh your primary snapshot with your secondary snapshot.
In that case your 6 hours work is gone.
After all you don't refresh your secondary snapshot every minut.

You won't have that problem when you anchor your personal data.

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> Suppose you work 6 hours in your primary snapshot, editing your documents, spreadsheets, etc.
Then you try a new software and it goes wrong so bad that you have to refresh your primary snapshot with your secondary snapshot.
In that case your 6 hours work is gone.
After all you don't refresh your secondary snapshot every minut.

You won't have that problem when you anchor your personal data. <-QUOTE}

Erik if you work 6 hours and then try new software without updating your secondary snapshot that would qualify for the "Stupid" title. I did that even when I did anchor data.

The benefit of doing it this way is also if an install messes with data some how, then your other snapshot also has protected the data, assuming that is the keyboard chair interface worked right.::)

[ErikAlbert]

{QUOTE-> Erik if you work 6 hours and then try new software without updating your secondary snapshot that would qualify for the "Stupid" title. I did that even when I did anchor data.

The benefit of doing it this way is also if an install messes with data some how, then your other snapshot also has protected the data, assuming that is the keyboard chair interface worked right.::) <-QUOTE}
That's true, but never think that everybody is like you and the risk is higher when you don't anchor.

That is one of the reasons that I moved my data to another partition, I don't need anchoring either.

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> That's true, but never think that everybody is like you and the risk is higher when you don't anchor.

That is one of the reasons that I moved my data to another partition, I don't need anchoring either. <-QUOTE}

You mean you would install new software without refreshing your fall back snapshot. Come on.

I've been using FDISR without Data Anchoring and haven't had any issue.

[ErikAlbert]

{QUOTE-> You mean you would install new software without refreshing your fall back snapshot. Come on.

I've been using FDISR without Data Anchoring and haven't had any issue. <-QUOTE}
If you anchor My Documents, your snapshots are quite stable in size and don't grow that fast.

If you don't anchor My Documents, your snapshots are getting bigger and bigger, because personal data grows every day.
That's another reason why I stored my data on another partition because it is a long term solution.

I recently stored ONE movie (The Godfather II) = +11gb on my computer to remove the flashbacks in this movie.
If I would have stored this movie on my system partition, my archives and images would take alot longer, if I didn't anchor.

And I'm not even talking about users, who collect photos, music, movies and other graphical files. You can't keep storing these objects on the same partition without anchoring or moving them to another partition.
That is my opinion of course. :)

I don't want to fight over this, just talk about it.

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> If you anchor My Documents, your snapshots are quite stable in size and don't grow that fast.

If you don't anchor My Documents, your snapshots are getting bigger and bigger, because personal data grows every day.
That's another reason why I stored my data on another partition because it is a long term solution.

I recently stored ONE movie (The Godfather II) = +11gb on my computer to remove the flashbacks in this movie.
If I would have stored this movie on my system partition, my archives and images would take alot longer, if I didn't anchor.

And I'm not even talking about users, who collect photos, music, movies and other graphical files. You can't keep storing these objects on the same partition without anchoring or moving them to another partition.
That is my opinion of course. :)

I don't want to fight over this, just talk about it. <-QUOTE}

As they so often say "Ah ha" Okay, now I am on the same page with you. My "My Documents" generally stays constant in size. I get voices mails as wav file attachments, so they build up, but I keep them cleaned out. It has been at an average size of 1.5 gigs, and is my sort of working area. The few photos, and program files, and the other "big" things, I like you keep on a separate drive.

So bottom line is with your concept of my documents I agree 100% you would Data Anchor. With the way I use it it's fine without Data Anchoring. Neither are right or wrong, and the beauty is both work

Key point is user needs to understand Data Anchoring, and figure out how to best use the tools within the way he/she works.

Pete