BSOD Session Server

[starfish_001]

Not sure if this is a FD problem or not but ....

I installed Shadow protect desktop - tried to create a couple of images of my o.s partition BSOD 0x ... 8b - so I un installed shadow protect.

My fun starts now - at the point where the logon screen should appear BSOD Session Manager initialization system process error with winXP - 0xc 26c .... No problem I think I'll boot to my shadow snapshot offset by a couple of days - exactly the same problem.

All snapshots did work ....

booted to one of my test snapshots - success.

I then deleted on of the unbootable snapshots and imported an archive of the same snapshot from 3 days ago this is my main snapshot so pretty clean normally no problems - archive taken before the shadow protect install. No errors during copy boot to snapshot same problem again .....

How can these snapshots all be BSOD - when All snapshots did work ... and one has been an archive.

Now a bit worried as I have no explanation for the un bootable snapshots they boot in safe mode but ... as of now I have not worked out what is causing the problem - guess it could be nod or outpost auto updating

Have uninstalled SSM , Outpost - I guess I should remove nod as well.

How do I change FD to RSS instead of VSS


Suggestions welcome ....

[Long View]

Go to the command line: start - run - type cmd and click ok.

At the prompt type: cd \$ISR\$APP\Setup -- press enter

At the next prompt type: ISRSetup -install -rss --- press enter

After the installation, you may be prompted to reboot. If you are not prompted to restart then manually restart the machine after the install -rss command is successfully executed.

Screamer told me this and it worked for me - good luck

[starfish_001]

Thanks - gonna change over to RSS for now


But I would still my to fix the damaged snapshots

[Long View]

I don't know much about FD-ISR but I don't see how the snapshots can be damaged. My guess is that shadow protect has messed things up.

Do you have a copy of the MBR you could restore or an image that you could restore ? perhaps then you could reinstall FD-ISR and build your snapshots up again

[Atomas31]

Sorry for my ignorance but what is RSS and VSS? Is this like FAT32 and NTFS and only one of the two can be use on a system or can you have both RSS and VSS on your system (whatever is RSS and VSS)?

I know that ShadowProtect need "clean" VSS to work properly so if FD-ISR need RSS and that your system can only have VSS or RSS, does that mean that FD-ISR (needing RSS) is incompatible with ShadowProtect (needing VSS)?

Thanks,
Atomas31

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> I don't know much about FD-ISR but I don't see how the snapshots can be damaged. My guess is that shadow protect has messed things up.

Do you have a copy of the MBR you could restore or an image that you could restore ? perhaps then you could reinstall FD-ISR and build your snapshots up again <-QUOTE}


At the moment I'm thinking that Shadow Protect is a catalyst - and that the problem is coming from SSM, Outpost or NOD. Just don't understand why an older snapshots and an archives are effected.

I thought I had a fairly safe set of snapshots
Main
3-4 day offset
30 day offset
Various test archives
Archives at various points back about 6 months
TI or Paragon images every once in a while - about 1 per month


So I do have images and a copy of the mbr - but at this stage don't believe that FD is compromised - changing to RSS just to be sure...

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> Sorry for my ignorance but what is RSS and VSS? Is this like FAT32 and NTFS and only one of the two can be use on a system or can you have both RSS and VSS on your system (whatever is RSS and VSS)?

I know that ShadowProtect need "clean" VSS to work properly so if FD-ISR need RSS and that your system can only have VSS or RSS, does that mean that FD-ISR (needing RSS) is incompatible with ShadowProtect (needing VSS)?

Thanks,
Atomas31 <-QUOTE}

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=126193&highlight=shadow+copy

See post 12

[Peter2150]

Hi Starfish

I also had a problem when ShadowProtect was installed, and I had FDISR set to VSS. In my case when I updated a snapshot, FDISR deleted the files, in the target. Not cool. Changing FDISR to RSS, solved problem and it's faster.

Pete

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> Hi Starfish

I also had a problem when ShadowProtect was installed, and I had FDISR set to VSS. In my case when I updated a snapshot, FDISR deleted the files, in the target. Not cool. Changing FDISR to RSS, solved problem and it's faster.

Pete <-QUOTE}

Right - another tick for RSS.

To be fair I think the problem is SSM. I have now finally recovered the set of snapshots that BSOD at logon.

I uninstalled SSM in safe mode - rebooted Bsod - rebooted again BSOD - rebooted again BSOD - rebooted into windows.

Strange as the only thing I changed was Shadow protect - I guess it changed the order drivers or services loaded causing a disaster at logon -

I am still a bit confused why that would apply to independant snapshots that have never seen shadow protect that have seen no changes as they have not been booted for a few days ...

VSS and shadow protect?

[Atomas31]

{QUOTE-> http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=126193&highlight=shadow+copy

See post 12 <-QUOTE}

Thank you Starfish_001, an interesting read :)

Best regards,
Atomas31

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> Right - another tick for RSS.

To be fair I think the problem is SSM. I have now finally recovered the set of snapshots that BSOD at logon.

I uninstalled SSM in safe mode - rebooted Bsod - rebooted again BSOD - rebooted again BSOD - rebooted into windows.

Strange as the only thing I changed was Shadow protect - I guess it changed the order drivers or services loaded causing a disaster at logon -

I am still a bit confused why that would apply to independant snapshots that have never seen shadow protect that have seen no changes as they have not been booted for a few days ...

VSS and shadow protect? <-QUOTE}


Well its not SSM or Outpost -

0xC000021A: STATUS_SYSTEM_PROCESS_TERMINATED

This occurs when Windows switches into kernel mode and a user-mode subsystem, such as Winlogon or the Client Server Runtime Subsystem (CSRSS), is compromised and security can no longer be guaranteed. Because Win XP can’t run without Winlogon or CSRSS, this is one of the few situations where the failure of a user-mode service can cause the system to stop responding. This Stop message also can occur when the computer is restarted after a system administrator has modified permissions so that the SYSTEM account no longer has adequate permissions to access system files and folders.

[grnxnm]

Wow, that's a new one. Never seen it before. I know Pete uses FDISR with ShadowProtect without issues. Maybe he has some advice for you.

Incidentally, ShadowProtect makes no changes to the MBR, so after you uninstall ShadowProtect I'm at a loss as to how your system can continue to experience BSODs. After you have uninstalled ShadowProtect and rebooted, there are not active components of ShadowProtect on your system, so it seems likely that something else is causing the BSOD. Very strange.

What's SSM?

[Longboard]

{QUOTE-> What's SSM? <-QUOTE}
http://www.syssafety.com/
HIPS / Application Firewall
Sets deep hooks = occasional conflicts
Do a thread search here and you will see :)
Very popular
Not always easy to use
Very effective
:)

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> Wow, that's a new one. Never seen it before. I know Pete uses FDISR with ShadowProtect without issues. Maybe he has some advice for you.

Incidentally, ShadowProtect makes no changes to the MBR, so after you uninstall ShadowProtect I'm at a loss as to how your system can continue to experience BSODs. After you have uninstalled ShadowProtect and rebooted, there are not active components of ShadowProtect on your system, so it seems likely that something else is causing the BSOD. Very strange.

What's SSM? <-QUOTE}


As far as I can tell - there is nothing wrong with the MBR or FD -ISR apart from Shadow Protect stopping VSS from working correctly when installed but .... it copies fine without shadowP installed. i have now changed to RSS just to be sure.

The thing that bothers me is that the BSOD seems to be linked to the install of ShadowP. 3 snapshots that were all perfectly stable now BSOD at logon screen with exactly the same error - no installs have been made other than ShadowP.

It seems to be driver related because 1:3 or 1:5 boots succeeds?

I have removed the obvious kernel level suspects SSM, Outpost but I guess it could be something else ......... nod. But nod is present in the test snapshots that still work - they are based on a snapshot from about 20 days ago in any case.


I don't understand why a previoulsy good archive should now no longer work.

[starfish_001]

"STOP C000021A (Fatal System Error)
The session manager initialization system process terminated unexpectedly with a status of 0xC000026C (0x00000000, 0x00000000).

I guess this is the problem
The STOP 0xC000021A error occurs when either Winlogon.exe or Csrss.exe fails. When the Windows NT kernel detects that either of these processes has stopped, it stops the system and raises the STOP 0xC000021A error. This error may have several causes, including, but not limited to the following:

• Mismatched system files have been installed.
• A Service Pack installation has failed.
• A backup program that as used to restore a hard disk did not correctly restore files that may have been in use.
• An incompatible third party program been installed.

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;156669

So it looks like it is something to do with ShadowP uninstall?

[Peter2150]

Hi Starfish

When I had the problem I described I don't remember exactly what two security programs I had running, but I always had two kernel mode flavors running, and saw no particular issue. The one thing I can think of that might affect all snapshots was something I had happen with a KAV beta.

They had a bad driver update on the server, so when you logged in you got the download automatically, and then on reboot, the system real dodgy. Drove me clean up a wall, cause if I logged into another snapshot it went bad, if I restored a know good image, both snapshot went bad. Finally figured out what was going on and then was able to restore a good image (with cable modem off) and get current with FDISR Archive, and then get into KAV and turn of Autoupdate.

You might have or had something like this going on that trashed all the snapshots as you checked them.

I've had SSM back on since you first posted, but I don't run Outpost. Maybe....

Pete

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> Hi Starfish

When I had the problem I described I don't remember exactly what two security programs I had running, but I always had two kernel mode flavors running, and saw no particular issue. The one thing I can think of that might affect all snapshots was something I had happen with a KAV beta.

They had a bad driver update on the server, so when you logged in you got the download automatically, and then on reboot, the system real dodgy. Drove me clean up a wall, cause if I logged into another snapshot it went bad, if I restored a know good image, both snapshot went bad. Finally figured out what was going on and then was able to restore a good image (with cable modem off) and get current with FDISR Archive, and then get into KAV and turn of Autoupdate.

You might have or had something like this going on that trashed all the snapshots as you checked them.

I've had SSM back on since you first posted, but I don't run Outpost. Maybe....

Pete <-QUOTE}

Thanks as you say this type of problem - drives me nuts too ......

I am grateful that I use a system OS disk , Data Disk , and Backup Disk. At this point I have only lost my favourite snapshot - I could just switch to my one of my test snapshots (15 days old seems ok, 3 days just breaks the same) or just revert to a clean xp install.

Initially I thought SSM then Outpost now I think I'll try

removing nod
sfc /scannow
chkdisk
or
If that does not work - restore the archive again with no N/W
Maybe swap the SAM files around.

That is all I can think of at the moment

[starfish_001]

out of ideas for now .... even the archive fails with no nw

[Peter2150]

Hi Starfish

Next thing I'd try is to delete your snapshot, and then uninstall FDISR, and start over. That may be your best course of action. Taking an image here wouldn't be a bad idea, just incase.

Pete

[screamer]

Starfish,

Check your Event Viewer for Application & System. I'll bet that it was an issue w/ VSS.

...screamer

[starfish_001]

Screamer, Peter,

The Event log has no VSS error - but I suspect that VSS has something to do with the way the BSOD propogate. I can copy other snapshots/archives around without any problems or errors.


so my problems are linked to my primary snapshot, and its shadow and the archive. If newer than a couple of weeks.

I have created a new set of snapshots and archives out of my 2 week old build for now.

And I have deleted the damaged snapshots - they do seem to install a driver on first boot. Which is strange as the HW config would not have changed in the 3 days since the archive.

- import the archive - boot snapshot - installs a driver for something - reboot BSOD - If I upade this snapshot from the archive again and then reboot bsod. It seems that the change that causes the BSOD is not refreshed from the archive


So Peter was correct the act of booting is changing a previously good archive to unusable.


I'm going create a new image tonight - using either Paragon or DirveSnapshot just to be safe.

[Peter2150]

Hi Starfish

a) Is FDISR still running with VSS
b) Do you know what is installing the driver.

Pete

[screamer]

Starfish,

you can take a look at the "detail logs" that FD-ISR creates:

FD-ISR -> Help -> About -> Support Info: Include detail log for "X" days.

Substitute the number of days since your issue began for X.

Hopefully it wasn't long ago since these logs tend to be quite long.

hth,

...screamer

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> Hi Starfish

a) Is FDISR still running with VSS
b) Do you know what is installing the driver.

Pete <-QUOTE}

Thanks for your continued support and interest...

A)
Last night I spent a while trying to fix the BSOD - and then created a new set of working snapshots from older backups.

I'm still using VSS for now - I did plan to change to RSS late last night but - when I set explorer to reveal hidden system files and folders - no $ISR dir.
As it was late I did not investigate further - something else for tonight.


B) Not not sure what but it is one of those unprompted device installs like you might get if you installed a new disk or partition.

Now as The STOP 0xC000021A error may have several causes, including, but not limited to the following:

• Mismatched system files have been installed.
• A backup program that as used to restore a hard disk did not correctly restore files that may have been in use.

I followed the MS advice to delete any pendingfilecopy operations so that leaves a file system problem or driver as possible causes.


So I need to create and empty snapshot and restore the archive reboot and then catch the install to check this.


This is more out of interest than necessity not as - I am not hopeful of fixing that snapshot set

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> Thanks for your continued support and interest...

A)
Last night I spent a while trying to fix the BSOD - and then created a new set of working snapshots from older backups.

I'm still using VSS for now - I did plan to change to RSS late last night but - when I set explorer to reveal hidden system files and folders - no $ISR dir.
As it was late I did not investigate further - something else for tonight.


B) Not not sure what but it is one of those unprompted device installs like you might get if you installed a new disk or partition.

Now as The STOP 0xC000021A error may have several causes, including, but not limited to the following:

• Mismatched system files have been installed.
• A backup program that as used to restore a hard disk did not correctly restore files that may have been in use.

I followed the MS advice to delete any pendingfilecopy operations so that leaves a file system problem or driver as possible causes.


So I need to create and empty snapshot and restore the archive reboot and then catch the install to check this.


This is more out of interest than necessity not as - I am not hopeful of fixing that snapshot set <-QUOTE}

First thing I'd do is get that VSS off, and switch to RSS. You might be trying to put the fire out with gasoline

[starfish_001]

I have now managed to reboot the damaged snapshot 3 times without error so far

From what I can see from the boot process below. My system was failing some where toward the end of the session manager bit which could mean:


A PendingFileRenameOperations operation
or a driver set to auto. VSS loads late during this phase.
So I have 2 suspect causes for my problem or maybe a combination.



{QUOTE-> Boot sequence eventually get to Session Manager
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/reskit/c29621675.mspx


Session Manager
(Smss.exe) performs important initialization functions, such as:
• Creating system environment variables.
• Starting the kernel-mode portion of the Windows subsystem
(implemented by systemroot
Professional to switch from text mode to graphics mode.
Windows-based applications run in the Windows subsystem.
This environment allows applications to access operating
system functions, such as displaying information to the screen.
• Starting the user-mode portion of the Windows subsystem
(implemented by systemroot
\System32\Csrss.exe).
• Starting the Logon Manager
(systemroot\System32\Winlogon.exe).
• Creating additional virtual memory paging files.
• Performing delayed rename operations for files HKEY_LOCAL_
MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager
\PendingFileRenameOperations.

The Service Control Manager initializes services that the Start entry as Auto-load.

And then
Logon Phase
The Windows subsystem starts Winlogon.exe, a system service
that enables logging on and off. Winlogon.exe then does the
following:
• Starts the Services subsystem (Services.exe), also known as
the Service Control Manager (SCM).
• Starts the Local Security Authority (LSA) process <-QUOTE}

My process for fixing the snapshot
- delete snapshot - create empty - import the archive - boot snapshot in safe mode - boot in normal # not booting striagght to normal was important

Once the system had BSOD once it could refreshed again but seemed to retain some of the changes - so it did not appear to be completely refreshed from the archive - not sure why but this was what worried me most.

For now ShadowProtect is not on the system anywhere


I have now changed to RSS in this snapshot - does this auto copy to all snapshots or does it need to be installed in all snapshots.

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> Starfish,

you can take a look at the "detail logs" that FD-ISR creates:

FD-ISR -> Help -> About -> Support Info: Include detail log for "X" days.

Substitute the number of days since your issue began for X.

Hopefully it wasn't long ago since these logs tend to be quite long.

hth,

...screamer <-QUOTE}

That's a useful tip

[Peter2150]

Hi Starfish

I just installed RSS once in primay. That was it.

Pete

[kennyboy]

Pete. Have just changed over to RSS because of you. Guess who gets the blame if it doesnt work....;D

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> Pete. Have just changed over to RSS because of you. Guess who gets the blame if it doesnt work....;D <-QUOTE}

LOL. I am not to worried. Biggest problem is getting the typing right.

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> Hi Starfish
I just installed RSS once in primay. That was it.
Pete <-QUOTE}

I guessed that it might - I tested it last night and it copies over boot in each snapshot

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> LOL. I am not to worried. Biggest problem is getting the typing right. <-QUOTE}

{QUOTE->

Go to the command line: start - run - type cmd and click ok.

At the prompt type: cd \$ISR\$APP\Setup -- press enter

At the next prompt type: ISRSetup -install -rss --- press enter
<-QUOTE}

May be a nice little tip

Copy and paste to the cmd window by right clicking top border - then choose edit - paste - repat for each line

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> May be a nice little tip

Copy and paste to the cmd window by right clicking top border - then choose edit - paste - repat for each line <-QUOTE}

Thanks. I just hope you are getting everything straightened out.

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> Thanks. I just hope you are getting everything straightened out. <-QUOTE}

Thanks ..
Only time will tell now - I have passed the details to Raxco to see if this is a VSS clash.

[Peter2150]

I may do some testing on this an see if I can find a clash.

[Atomas31]

Hi Starfish_001,

I ask on the shadowProtect forums if there was any conflict between FD-ISR and SP with reference of a few threads heres.
There answers was :
"Yeah, I'm seeing the same thing. I think there may be some interoperability issues between ShadowProtect and FD-ISR. We're going to have to test this out.

I do know of one user who uses FD-ISR a lot but he usually backs up using only the ShadowProtect Recovery Environment CD instead of installing ShadowProtect."

If there is some interoperability problem between FD-ISR and SP, I hope they will work together to solved that issue...

Hope it can helps,
Atomas31

[starfish_001]

Peter uses both SP and FD but uses RSS rather than VSS in FD.

I have contacted both sets of support they did not seem to be aware of the problem. I have send more info and will post any results


If using FD change to RSS before even thinking about installing SP. And take an image before even starting

[Longboard]

Looking forward to responses re this issue.

As an extra Q: if I change VSS > RSS, will my snapshots in FDISR update/copy as per usual?

Does the " new compressed snapshot" function operate in RSS?

Thx

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> Looking forward to responses re this issue.

As an extra Q: if I change VSS > RSS, will my snapshots in FDISR update/copy as per usual?

Does the " new compressed snapshot" function operate in RSS?

Thx <-QUOTE}

Don't know about the compressed snapshot function I've no interest in it. Other than that all I do with FDISR has worked as usual with RSS.

Pete

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> Looking forward to responses re this issue.

As an extra Q: if I change VSS > RSS, will my snapshots in FDISR update/copy as per usual?

Does the " new compressed snapshot" function operate in RSS?

Thx <-QUOTE}


Pretty sure it does - I have one - I will check tonight

[starfish_001]

Seems to work fine - I copied one to archive without error

[screamer]

Yeah, RSS will work in any mode. It's only a Copy Engine. The only difference is that it'sa Raxco version of MS VSS Volume Shadow copy Service

I had so many issues w/ Shadow Protect & FD-ISR, I needed to format HDD & re-install WinXP on my laptop. Whata drag :(

Well for the time being (until FD-ISR & SP are compatible) I'm going to stick w/ ATI for my imaging. I just can't take all the fuss of futzin' around w/ these two apps butting heads.

...screamer

Oh, BTW: Pete, Disk Director was able to recover the lost hdd space. It took several different operations & considerable time, but it's dooable :)

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> Yeah, RSS will work in any mode. It's only a Copy Engine. The only difference is that it'sa Raxco version of MS VSS Volume Shadow copy Service

I had so many issues w/ Shadow Protect & FD-ISR, I needed to format HDD & re-install WinXP on my laptop. Whata drag :(

Well for the time being (until FD-ISR & SP are compatible) I'm going to stick w/ ATI for my imaging. I just can't take all the fuss of futzin' around w/ these two apps butting heads.

...screamer

Oh, BTW: Pete, Disk Director was able to recover the lost hdd space. It took several different operations & considerable time, but it's dooable :) <-QUOTE}

Cool.

[starfish_001]

I said that I would post any support reply from either vendor

Raxco have exchanged emails on a daily basis and have said they will do some internal testing - provided some advice but not yet completed


Storagecraft have sent me this reply and been less than supportive - given the problem happened after installing SP

{QUOTE-> We are not compatible with this product. Our engineers believe that Session Manager would need to be changed to support our products and that there is not much we can do. For now, you will need to decide which of the two product you want to use.

We appreciate your feedback and will make a kb note that we are not compatible with Session Manager <-QUOTE}

An answer that leaves me rather confused as Session Manager (Smss.exe) is part of ms xp pro. From my experience Shadowprotect is not comp with Raxco FD when it uses VSS.

[Peter2150]

Hi Starfish and everyone.

In looking at the logs apparently the problem with SP and FDISR, is when FDISR prepares to copy, there are some kind of permission problem, that results in FDISR not being able to scan the source directory. As a result it assumes the source is empty and thus proceeds to empty the target.

What Starfish got is sort of the "official" response, but I've been working with SP folks on this and today, I am going to do some in depth testing, to try and pinpoint the exact problem.

In the interim there are two excellent work arounds First is switch FDISR to RSS. I've done that anyway as it cuts out the delay when FDISR starts VSS up. This allows the Desktop version to be installed, and allows using all the desktop features if you want. The 2nd option should you really want FDISR to work in VSS, and don't mind do manual backups, is to uninstall the Desktop version, and then image from the Recovery CD.

My choice is actually switch FDISR to RSS, and use the Recovery CD.


Honestly I think it worth the effort, as, well I don't have to say why I think FDISR is worth it, but with all the testing on imaging I've been doing I also think Shadow Protect is worth it. It is in my mind the premier imaging program, in terms of speed, and reliablity. I use it on both my business machines, and give as much thought to restoring an image, as I do to opening Word.

Stay tuned.

Pete

[screamer]

Pete,

I don't think that imaging from the Recovery CD is really a workaround. I tried this with FD-ISR using RSS and still FD-ISR failed. It would "only boot to primary snapshot". I tried Secondary SS and an Archived SS. Which acted like it was actually booting to the designated SS e.g. no pre-boot visible during boot process. Alas when all was said and done. Only the primary was restored.

...screamer

[Longboard]

Having first broached the FDISR/ShadowProtect combo here http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=146338
I have been following these threads and the increasing profile of SP as time goes by.

{QUOTE-> Storagecraft have sent me this reply and been less than supportive - given the problem happened after installing SP <-QUOTE}
It may be, and despite all the terrific help grnxnhm has been giving us here, there is little interest in a few home users with some obscure software from Raxco. That may just be commercial reality. :-\

Now if you had 300 servers running SP and FDISR that might be different :-X

Too bad really, between the end users here and grnxnhm we could probably add quite a lot to Storagecraft's kb and maybe even userbase.

I personally have at least 20 associates who run between them, businesses turning over a total > $40 mill pa: they are always on the lookout for up to date back-up systems that don't require exorbitant service contracts and/or are easy for themselves to manage on site. They each have well and truly recognized the need for redundancy. (Each of them has up to 10 employees with various combos of working computers at home and as part of subcontracting businesses and so it goes...)

They have up to now universally gone with word of mouth recommendations as they have built their businesses but now may be requiring something more effective than what they have and their IT budgets are expanding.
That group has its own circles of associates and so on..

I have any number of friends with households of up to 10 working lap/desktops who (heh believe it or not ;D ) might ask me for software recommendations...

I am sure I am not alone in either respect on this forum.
Storagecraft ignore/disrespect the "little guys" at their peril.

Having said that:
{QUOTE-> What Starfish got is sort of the "official" response, but I've been working with SP folks on this and today, I am going to do some in depth testing, to try and pinpoint the exact problem. <-QUOTE}This sounds very encouraging. I hope something will come of it.

Regards.

Absolutely no disrespect intended to grnxnhm who has championed his wares with style, patience, grace, and expertise. He has responded to every saddle burr we have raised, and certainly managed to raise the StorageCraft profile here.

There are other great recovery tools available that do work with FDISR (or not), grnxnhm has kept me interested in the development of SP.

Regards again. ;)

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> Pete,

I don't think that imaging from the Recovery CD is really a workaround. I tried this with FD-ISR using RSS and still FD-ISR failed. It would "only boot to primary snapshot". I tried Secondary SS and an Archived SS. Which acted like it was actually booting to the designated SS e.g. no pre-boot visible during boot process. Alas when all was said and done. Only the primary was restored.

...screamer <-QUOTE}

It may relate to the restore options you use. What I do is once I have the restore destinations in front of me, I right click on the destination drive, and select Delete Volume. That leaves it unallocated, and also it showes unformatted. I then right click it again, and select create exact primary partition. Then you can check the box, and go on. I then select the make partition active, restore MBR from image, and restore track 0. Have never had any problems with FDISR doing it that way.

Pete

[screamer]

{QUOTE-> It may relate to the restore options you use. What I do is once I have the restore destinations in front of me, I right click on the destination drive, and select Delete Volume. That leaves it unallocated, and also it showes unformatted. I then right click it again, and select create exact primary partition. Then you can check the box, and go on. I then select the make partition active, restore MBR from image, and restore track 0. Have never had any problems with FDISR doing it that way.

Pete <-QUOTE}

You may be correct, But I was unable to restore image to unallocated space. It was as if it was "lost in space". My unallocated spaced showed as NTFS, not un-formatted? In any case, when I have the time to do a re-format & re-install WinXP again, I'll give it a try. My wife gets pissed when I stay up all night w/ the computer. She feels neglected and says I need a 12 Step program . hehe... Let's hope these companies come to a reasonable solution before that.

...screamer

[Longboard]

{QUOTE-> I right click on the destination drive, and select Delete Volume. That leaves it unallocated, and also it showes unformatted. I then right click it again, and select create exact primary partition. I then select the make partition active, restore MBR from image, and restore track 0. <-QUOTE}
I assume this is equivalent to replacing the "c" drive partition and requires no physical moving around of the restored partition or changes to boot.ini ??

Hoo: Pete; that shows some faith. !!
Heh; knowing you you have at least one other back-up :)

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> Having first broached the FDISR/ShadowProtect combo here http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=146338
I have been following these threads and the increasing profile of SP as time goes by.


It may be, and despite all the terrific help grnxnhm has been giving us here, there is little interest in a few home users with some obscure software from Raxco. That may just be commercial reality. :-\

Now if you had 300 servers running SP and FDISR that might be different :-X

Too bad really, between the end users here and grnxnhm we could probably add quite a lot to Storagecraft's kb and maybe even userbase.

I personally have at least 20 associates who run between them, businesses turning over a total > $40 mill pa: they are always on the lookout for up to date back-up systems that don't require exorbitant service contracts and/or are easy for themselves to manage on site. They each have well and truly recognized the need for redundancy. (Each of them has up to 10 employees with various combos of working computers at home and as part of subcontracting businesses and so it goes...)

They have up to now universally gone with word of mouth recommendations as they have built their businesses but now may be requiring something more effective than what they have and their IT budgets are expanding.
That group has its own circles of associates and so on..

I have any number of friends with households of up to 10 working lap/desktops who (heh believe it or not ;D ) might ask me for software recommendations...

I am sure I am not alone in either respect on this forum.
Storagecraft ignore/disrespect the "little guys" at their peril.

Having said that:
This sounds very encouraging. I hope something will come of it.

Regards.

Absolutely no disrespect intended to grnxnhm who has championed his wares with style, patience, grace, and expertise. He has responded to every saddle burr we have raised, and certainly managed to raise the StorageCraft profile here.

There are other great recovery tools available that do work with FDISR (or not), grnxnhm has kept me interested in the development of SP.

Regards again. ;) <-QUOTE}

I tend to agree ...

I have tended to use ATI or Paragon DriveBackup but they both either have the odd problem or feature missing

I have been playing with the SP recovery disk and the new beta recovery disk for the last month and had got to the point thinking I might buy SP. So I installed the windows component. It did not work - I raised a support ticket heard nothing for a couple of days tried again - it did not work (apparently did not like my FD mbr - odd).

First defense continued to work until I un-installed SP. And then many of my snapshots and archives no longer booted. I raised another support ticket.

And received no helpful advice ..... just and answer that says yeah it does not work. From what I can make of it with this type of problem most people seem to reinstall windows..

True Raxco did not provide an answer either but they have provided some helpful tips and are currently testing this problem

No disrespect intended to grnxnhm or Peter because they have provided lot of interesting details about SP and imaging in general.

My position has moved from I'll buy this ... after I have made a couple of images from inside windows ...... to no chance not on my machines.

For now I'm going back to ATI or Paragon - products that have some problems but responsive support

[Acadia]

{QUOTE-> She feels neglected and says I need a 12 Step program . <-QUOTE}
Screamer, I had the exact same problem, my solution? I bought her a computer for her very own ... now I'm starting to feel neglected! :-\

Acadia

[screamer]

{QUOTE-> Screamer, I had the exact same problem, my solution? I bought her a computer for her very own ... now I'm starting to feel neglected! :-\

Acadia <-QUOTE}

hehehe... Been there, Done that!

She works on a computer all day at work. The last thing she wants to see when shes home...

Believe it or not, shes serious about the twelve step program. She swears I'm addicted. Unfortunately, shes right. I tell her that I gave up drugs, I don't drink, I never go out w/ my friends, e.g. titty bars... I need to have some vices. ;)

...screamer

[Peter2150]

{QUOTE-> I assume this is equivalent to replacing the "c" drive partition and requires no physical moving around of the restored partition or changes to boot.ini ??

Hoo: Pete; that shows some faith. !!
Heh; knowing you you have at least one other back-up :) <-QUOTE}

Exactly. Well the faith comes from doing it over and over again. However I do believe in a layered approach. Although clumsier, the FDISR solution is definitely a fall back, which also has been tested.

[screamer]

{QUOTE-> It may relate to the restore options you use. What I do is once I have the restore destinations in front of me, I right click on the destination drive, and select Delete Volume. That leaves it unallocated, and also it showes unformatted. I then right click it again, and select create exact primary partition. Then you can check the box, and go on. I then select the make partition active, restore MBR from image, and restore track 0. Have never had any problems with FDISR doing it that way.

Pete <-QUOTE}

Pete,

I figured that perhaps having the Dell "extra" partition might have had something to do w/ my SP problems. Since I deleted this partition the other day, I thought I'd try SP again. (I know I said I'd wait)
I followed your above directions to the "T". I did see a different option when I deleted my "C" partition. It said "Exact copy of partition" great so far. I selected this and proceeded to copy my .spf to C. I got to 1min 36sec and the SBRun error Terminated un-expectedly. Grrrr. Laptop cannot find anything to boot. It successfully completes POST, but then I get the error that it cannot find a boot device. I tried boot from hdd first, no joy. Well in the interim I'm re-storing C w/ an ATI image I took this morning. I just wonder if FD-ISR will be effective on the ATI image. It wasn't the last time I restored ATI image after using SP. We'll see. I'll keep you all posted.

...screamer

[screamer]

Well, ATI restore was a complete success. Same drive size, FD-ISR boots to any snapshot.

Guess I better leave SP alone for a while.

...screamer

[Long View]

{QUOTE-> Well, ATI restore was a complete success. Same drive size, FD-ISR boots to any snapshot.

Guess I better leave SP alone for a while.

...screamer <-QUOTE}

ATI works
FD-ISR works

Is there any real reason to want to run SP then ? or do you just have a death wish ? ;D

[screamer]

{QUOTE-> ATI works
FD-ISR works

Is there any real reason to want to run SP then ? or do you just have a death wish ? ;D <-QUOTE}

I've been askin' myself the same question ;)

...screamer

[Acadia]

What version of ATI are you guys using? Thanks.

Acadia

[starfish_001]

{QUOTE-> ATI works
FD-ISR works

Is there any real reason to want to run SP then ? or do you just have a death wish ? ;D <-QUOTE}

I have had problems with ATI in the past although Acronis seem to have a good build now

SP is very fast vs Acronis .....Corporate v9.1

death wish ....... just looking for a better solution

[screamer]

ATI Home V9 build 3854

...screamer

[Longboard]

Longview LoL

You should have said
{QUOTE-> "Grasshopper; ATI works FD-ISR works
Is there any real reason to want to run SP then?
Do you just have death wish ? <-QUOTE}

;)

It's the reason I have not gone ahead with SP since initial spec-out. There may be some advantages to SP but:

- IFW/BING and FDISR are my anchors and cables so far. (was ghost/goback in the past)
- Now we see V3 of SP released soon
-except for grnxnhm, the 'support' for SP seems a little 'thin' for single users and the implication from what I can see so far is that "the user is at fault" or "bad luck" still we all know mmv from box to box.
(Very different to many other utilities we discuss at Wilders.)

Quite frankly I am a bit disappointed in v1.8 ( the new one)of BING released this week.
Was hoping for some enhancements wrt imaging/incrementals/ differentials.
The main change has been to set up Vista compatibility, with little else apparent. LOL should have seen the postings here and there re "please dont change too much" Still , apart from maybe sometime saved, The Terabyte stuff more than does the job. I have no fear of TU by now and am at ease with the useage of the three utilities.

Might be time to go and get eval/reeval version of SP for a little drive.
(ATI still makes me nervous.)
FDISR not going nowhere.

Will just wait while the VSS issues is sorted.
I want my learning curve for SP if I go ahead to be as short and flat as possible. Thanks to you all for posting these issues as they arise.

Wrt FDISR: I know, I know, it seems to work well together with RSS.


Hah: also forgot to tell you all a little story: Went to work last MON, 0900 Secretary was just ringing me to tell me there is a message on the screen which is now black and white: Unable to Boot volume. This message was acc0mpanied by a loud clicking in the HD bay: HD kaput. :gack: No warning: just phut. (HD and box was ~4 1/2 yrs old.)

Of course this was the week I was planning a HW upgrade. :ouch:

Had all the data I needed for the business on my USB Stick and USB external HD.
(Had full image made last week ;) )

Ring the shop: make new box with new HW; clean install of XP Pro and then I arrived with BootIT and external USB: restore; and back up within 3 hours of HD failure. (heh; pen and paper in the meantime: really quite good lol )

So what ever you do, it is important and you will need it at some unexpected time.
Do some fire drills.
Have a strategy for software bork and HW flame out.

Thanks to the contributors here for getting me to that point. 8)

Regards.

[screamer]

@ "Do you have a death wish"

I really think not. Hopefully someone has learned from my experience / experiment.

With a Dell (restore) partition you get a different set of SP Re-store options.
1) put partition at beginning of free space on disk
2) put partition at end of free space on disk

W/O Dell Partition
1) Create exact partition

With Dell Partition
1) Unallocated space shows up as NTFS for main partition and FAT for Dell and doesn't allow you to re-format although it requires re-format to proceed (this is where I lost all my hdd space. I needed to select a smaller {available} partition to re-store to)
The only way to accomplish this was to split my 91GB hdd in half.

W/O Dell Partition
1) Unallocated space shows full hdd as un-formatted and allows you to select it to Re-store partition.

Since all I wanted to do was to check out SP restore I didn't delve into every available option. I tried to keep it as simple as possible. I'm not into dizzying arrays of options to preform a simple task.

In my last experiment w/ SP W/O Dell Partition I followed Pete's procedure. It's simple enough... Unfortunately SBRun crapped out. I'm confident that this was not a fault of mine.

Which still leaves us w/ the question: Will FD-ISR & SP coexist?

After my first failure, I reported this to SP. I received a reply: I think there must be some interop issues between ShadowProtect and FD-ISR...

They "are" looking into the incident.

...screamer

[Longboard]

{QUOTE-> @ "Do you have a death wish"
I really think not. Hopefully someone has learned from my experience / experiment. <-QUOTE}
Just joshing and yes I have. :thumb: