VMWare Player vs FDISR

[WilliamP]

This may be a crazy question but here goes. I have FDISR and love it. I have read from time to time about virtualization. What is the difference between running a program in a snapshot or in a virtual machine?

[Acadia]

And I'm wondering what happens if you add a VirtualMachine program to a FirstDefense Snapshot?! :wacko: (I'm serious; most of you probably already know this, but MS is now offering one of their VM programs for free and I'm considering it; will VM and FD play nicely together?)

Acadia

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "What is the difference between running a program in a snapshot or in a virtual machine?" }-
Well, when you run Windows in a VM, you basically run an operating system inside of an operating system.
Which is nice when you develop software and need to fix the bugs that crashes the system. It's faster to restart a VM than to reboot the system.
A snapshot represents the current status of your system and is intended to easily revert to that same status whenever you need.

[Peter2150]

I want to have a play with this myself. I did fire up the MS Virtual PC 2007 Beta and did have a virtual machine running. Of course it was running in a FDISR snapshot. Why not?? Didn't have time to do a lot with it, but it is cool as hell to watch a machine boot in a window on your desktop.

Pete

[sukarof]

-{ Quote: "And I'm wondering what happens if you add a VirtualMachine program to a FirstDefense Snapshot?! :wacko: (I'm serious; most of you probably already know this, but MS is now offering one of their VM programs for free and I'm considering it; will VM and FD play nicely together?)

Acadia" }-

I concur with Peter2150. I did try MS virtual machine last spring or something and it played very well in a couple of FDISR snapshots, and so does VMware. As far as I know it is only software that does something to the MBR that can cause conflict with FDISR. I have not yet encountered any software that doesn't work well with FDISR (and I do test quite a lot of software)

[Meriadoc]

FDISR+VMWare Workstation and Player work fine here.
Peter :
-{ Quote: "but it is cool as hell to watch a machine boot in a window on your desktop.
" }-
Yes kinda cool, I've had a few people here who don't know vms perplexed at this:)

[tobacco]

Okay.

Now that it appears it can be done, can someone enlighten me/us as to the possibilities/ benefits of doing so?.

Thanks

[WilliamP]

What I would like to know is the differences in system vulnerability FDISR VS VM.

[Meriadoc]

tobacco :
-{ Quote: "Now that it appears it can be done, can someone enlighten me/us as to the possibilities/ benefits of doing so?." }-
VMware is just another program, a tool I use to make vms for what I'm doing at the time - its just another program that works in FD if you want that, but on my work machine I don't have FD.
Heres some appliances : http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/directory/

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "Now that it appears it can be done, can someone enlighten me/us as to the possibilities/ benefits of doing so?." }-
If this is a question for you, then probably there are no benefits that you aren't aware of.
What I mean to say is: When something is possible, it doesn't mean it is valuable for everyone.

[tobacco]

-{ Quote: "If this is a question for you, then probably there are no benefits that you aren't aware of.
What I mean to say is: When something is possible, it doesn't mean it is valuable for everyone." }-

I'm just trying to grasp this. Could you list some examples, scenarios of how by adding this in a snapshot would allow someone to do this and that, etc.

[wilbertnl]

I can think of a developer who tests a driver that has serious bugs.
Instead of rebooting the system after each crash, he restarts the VM and can startover.

[Meriadoc]

People use them for all sorts of testing, say make 20 small vms and put a different av or firewall etc in each. You could do the same with FD but I think not as many different ones as you can with a vm which is only restricted by your space, plus FD is different as you can also recover from a problem.
Or test something in any OS, but thats not only what they can be used for, the appliances will give you a good idea of what can be done. The scope of use is pretty much down to the user.
If you so wish you could keep a few vms in a snapshot maybe one vm could be used to surf with even and keep your os safe.

[tobacco]

Thanks for the explanations!.

[WilliamP]

Ok guys, how about my question? What are the differences of system vulnerability with FDISR vs VM. Is your computer as protected in a snapshot as in a VM?

[Meriadoc]

-{ Quote: "Ok guys, how about my question? What are the differences of system vulnerability with FDISR vs VM. Is your computer as protected in a snapshot as in a VM?" }-
They're similar I suppose, VMWare is like industrial strength virtualization, a vm can be setup to revert back and undo any changes, as you can boot to a different snapshot in FD.
But you can do alot more with VMWare - you can move a virtual machine to somewhere else on the same computer, or another computer. Other users can share a vm but you could set it so it cannot be modified, or you could share by making a clone of the vm.
You can take snapshots of a virtual machine at any time which preserves the state of all vms and the vm's power state, powered on, powered off, or suspended.
You can take a new snapshot or revert to any previous snapshot at any time. When you revert you discard all changes made to the vm since the most recent snapshot. Multiple snapshots allow you to preserve different states of the same vm.

-{ Quote: "Is your computer as protected in a snapshot as in a VM" }- - I'd say it does its job of immediate recovery.

Here's a screen of Workstation, you can see Xandros os and XPPRO os vm are 'paused' also some options on the home tab.

[WilliamP]

Thank you Meriadoc. If I understand correctly,my system with FD is as safe as with VM? I like that.

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "If I understand correctly,my system with FD is as safe as with VM? I like that." }-
I don't think that VM relies on the security features of the host computer. So, it's as safe as you make it yourself by taking security measures.
If rollback is all you want to fulfill your security needs, then you are correct.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "I don't think that VM relies on the security features of the host computer. So, it's as safe as you make it yourself by taking security measures.
If rollback is all you want to fulfill your security needs, then you are correct." }-

YOu are right. I am playing with VMware (really like it) and it pestered the hell out of me until I installed KIS in it. Kind of cool to be running KIS 6.0 inside a machine running KAV.

Pete

[Longboard]

The VM ware seems to be the way to go.
I tried the SVS with some success but some issues too

Some questions: how secure is the VM if file sharing between Native OS and VM is enabled?

If I install FDISR in the VM could I import snapshots from the native system and use them.

Ditto for say IFW?

Can I reboot from floppy to VM?

Has anybody had issues with XP activation key on multiple VMs?

What si the difference between VMWare player and VMWare workstation:
Do I have to pay for 5 licences?
IsVMWareplayer a single user fully functional VM install?

I think I might really like this for surfing/exploring/testing and keep the native os nice and calm and settled

I have tried to compare MS VPC and Parrallels and VMWare: Except for possible $$ issues VMWare looks the most complete.

Is it possible to keep FDISR snapshots inside the VMWare?

IF I make changes to the VM: some I want to keep and some I want to lose after a session; how does that work?

Is there a manual for the technically less ept :o

Thanks.

(hey Meriadoc how come he Scarlets crunch us one week then fall apart in front of the black wave?? :D )

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "The VM ware seems to be the way to go.
I tried the SVS with some success but some issues too

Some questions: how secure is the VM if file sharing between Native OS and VM is enabled?

If I install FDISR in the VM could I import snapshots from the native system and use them.

Ditto for say IFW?

Can I reboot from floppy to VM?

Has anybody had issues with XP activation key on multiple VMs?

What si the difference between VMWare player and VMWare workstation:
Do I have to pay for 5 licences?
IsVMWareplayer a single user fully functional VM install?

I think I might really like this for surfing/exploring/testing and keep the native os nice and calm and settled

I have tried to compare MS VPC and Parrallels and VMWare: Except for possible $$ issues VMWare looks the most complete.

Is it possible to keep FDISR snapshots inside the VMWare?

IF I make changes to the VM: some I want to keep and some I want to lose after a session; how does that work?

Is there a manual for the technically less ept :o

Thanks.

(hey Meriadoc how come he Scarlets crunch us one week then fall apart in front of the black wave?? :D )" }-

From my limited experience

Haven't tried nor do I really see a need to put FDISR inside a vm

It looked like IFD / IFW / stuff from bart might have run, but I didn't have the right drivers for my DVD so that didn't work. Will try that again in a bit.

I believe you can reboot from a floppy, I know you can from a CD

I believe VMplayer will just run VM machines created else where. You need VM workstation to actually build VM machines.

I did try MS Virtual PC 2007 beta without much success.

Yes you do need Operating system licenses to run the machines.

I don't see a need to keep FDISR snapshots in them.

The what is saved, what is lost is not really quite the same. Barring the crash scenario you close down the virtual machine just like your computer.

There is a snapshot feature that allows you to keep snapshot of a system state and revert to them, but it looks like they chew up loads of disk space.

Remember is you create a machine with a 10gig drive thats a 10g file on your hard disk.

Wilbertnl If you are listening, this is why I have those huge disk.:D

Pete

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "Is it possible to keep FDISR snapshots inside the VMWare?" }-
I'm not sure if you would be able to activate the preboot screen?
If not, then you would not be able to change snapshots...

[Longboard]

@Wilbert & Peter &Meriadoc:

Have you guys actually coughed up $180? yet
-{ Quote: "Haven't tried nor do I really see a need to put FDISR inside a vm" }-
Just trying to cheat a bit: if I just load XP, then install FDISR, enable folder sharing: then import a snapshot and direct boot, then wipe other snapshots?
The ultimate test for FDISR: own the virtual drive :o
But:
-{ Quote: "I'm not sure if you would be able to activate the preboot screen?
If not, then you would not be able to change snapshots..." }-
Wilbert: spooky: mindreader :o

I'll ask on the terabyte forums if IFW or BING will be able to write to virtual discs or manage them?

PS:my XP cd says OEM Product: will that work on VM for install.
Regards.

;D ;D ;D
LOL: look here: http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=303
Gotta love terabyte.
Heh: maybe dont even have to activate windows ??
Longboard.

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "Wilbert: spooky: mindreader :o " }-
I just love to walk paths of logic. ;D

[Peter2150]

Still not sure why you'd bother with FDISR in a VM. Just build a 2nd VM machine.

BTW THere is $50 off the price of VM Workstation and I am extremely close to warming up the credit card.

Pete

[Meriadoc]

Longboard
-{ Quote: "Have you guys actually coughed up $180? yet" }-
Er, I have, or did along while back now - longboard, that's how you get to play with it ;D :) Yeah I use it in work,...and play.
I've heard some say Parallels for Win&Linux at $49.99 is better and I'd agree on some points like performance, hypervisor, but I didn't change, one of the reasons was I already had VMWare. But you could buy Parallels and Parallels Compressor($49.99) and still save money.
Or, and if I were you Peter I'd try them all out before you decide, consider the free options. Microsofts VM, VMWare Server or VMWare Player. In fact using a site like easyvmx.com to create virtual machines for VMWare Player for some may all that is needed, then there is the ready made appliances from the Virtual Appliance Marketplace. When you buy VMWare Workstation you get ofcourse Workstation and the VMWare Player + you have a listing in ALL Programs called manage virtual networks which opens a virtual network editor.

FDISR + VMWare
What you've probably got to watch is overhead. I just wanted to answer the question if they play nicely together. They do but I havent really tested much. On my other machine, work machine I don't have FDISR on it. Also I don't see the need to put FD in a VM.

Longboard
-{ Quote: "(hey Meriadoc how come he Scarlets crunch us one week then fall apart in front of the black wave?? )" }-
Nope, you got me on that one ??? - I must be getting old - care to explain?

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "Longboard

Er, I have, or did along while back now - longboard, that's how you get to play with it ;D :) Yeah I use it in work,...and play.
I've heard some say Parallels for Win&Linux at $49.99 is better and I'd agree on some points like performance, hypervisor, but I didn't change, one of the reasons was I already had VMWare. But you could buy Parallels and Parallels Compressor($49.99) and still save money.
Or, and if I were you Peter I'd try them all out before you decide, consider the free options. Microsofts VM, VMWare Server or VMWare Player. In fact using a site like easyvmx.com to create virtual machines for VMWare Player for some may all that is needed, then there is the ready made appliances from the Virtual Appliance Marketplace. When you buy VMWare Workstation you get ofcourse Workstation and the VMWare Player + you have a listing in ALL Programs called manage virtual networks which opens a virtual network editor.

FDISR + VMWare
What you've probably got to watch is overhead. I just wanted to answer the question if they play nicely together. They do but I havent really tested much. On my other machine, work machine I don't have FDISR on it. Also I don't see the need to put FD in a VM.

Longboard

Nope, you got me on that one ??? - I must be getting old - care to explain?" }-

Hi Meriadoc

Thanks for the heads up. I think I am going with VMware. I don't mind the price if it works. I did try the Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 beta. It worked great, but I couldn't get any networking to work, so that shut me down. WHen I tried the VMware the networking worked great. In fact the only thing I couldn't do is burn to a dvd. The error message told me there was a driver I could download from Vmware that would solve the problem. I just see vmware as a more mature product worth the money.

Pete

PS VMware works great on a machine with FDISR on it. I probably won't try installing FDISR inside a vm as I just don't see any point. Hmm. Might try it for fun, after I see I can image a VM.

[Peter2150]

Actually one thing you can do with VM Workstation is take snapshots, and then later restore the machine to that snapshot condition. Hmm. Warming up credit card.

[Peter2150]

Absolutely unbelievable. Okay I bought VMware WorkStation First of all you have to have resources. I setup a virtual machine with 2 processors(I have a dual core machine), a 20g virtual harddrive, and 1024 Meg of ram.

Naturally I installed the VMware software in a FDISR snapshot. No issues.
Then I install Windows XP Pro, updated it, and install OAFW ,KAV and Prevx1.

Today for grins I decided to see what I could do in terms of the original question. Just in case I cloned the machine to play with a copy.

Then in the virtual machine:

I first installed Raxco's Perfect Disk 8. Fine. Then I did an offline defrag which went perfectly. Then did a regular defgrag. That also went fine.

With that working I got braver and installed FDISR. Went fine. I installed the patch to bring it current, and then reset the service to RSS. Finally I built a 2nd snapshot. Again all went well. I booted to the 2nd snapshot from with in FDISR's gui. No problem. Then from the 2nd snapshot, I rebooted, and used the F1 intercept to boot back to the primary.

Bottom line: FDISR worked fine in a VMware virtual machine with VMware installed in a host FDISR snapshot. Confusing eh.

Like I said Unbelievable. Staggers the imagination with the possiblities.

Oh one other thing I tested was the VM snapshots. Took one before installing FDISR. Installed FDISR, and then reverted to the snapshot. FDISR was gone. Only problem is anything done after the snapshot is gone permenantly.

Where can the Wilders crew take this.;D

Pete

Edit: Am I going to us FDISR in the VM. Not sure it makes sense, but having it there does match the configuration of my system and for that reason I might leave it.

[WilliamP]

Pete, be careful you don't get lost in there. No one will ever find you.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "Pete, be careful you don't get lost in there. No one will ever find you." }-

ROFL!!

[sukarof]

I can recommend Vmware Converter (http://www.vmware.com/whatsnew/converter.html), if you havent tried it yet. It converts your host into a vmware image. You can load your current config (host) in Vmware. Good to have if you dont want to install windows all over again.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "I can recommend Vmware Converter (http://www.vmware.com/whatsnew/converter.html), if you havent tried it yet. It converts your host into a vmware image. You can load your current config (host) in Vmware. Good to have if you dont want to install windows all over again." }-

Thanks Sukarof

Going to have to try it. It was education installing windows. If you use the converter and load into a VM machine do you have to reactivate?

Pete

[Acadia]

Ok, Peter, I now consider you an expert for this philosophical question: which came first, the chicken or the egg! ;D

Acadia

[wilbertnl]

Peter, are you posting your forum messages in the second FD-ISR snapshot in VMware, that resides in the third FD-ISR snapshot of the host? :o

[chrome_sturmen]

i figured wil would chime in on this one ;-)

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "Peter, are you posting your forum messages in the second FD-ISR snapshot in VMware, that resides in the third FD-ISR snapshot of the host? :o" }-

ROFL

Actually someone suggested to me I try building a vm machine to my satisfaction, and then installing VMware in that machine, and see how many layers deep can get. No thanks.

As I said the only real point to leaving FDISR on the vm machine is just to match my setup for testing. I am not sure I see any real purpose to it.

Any suggestions?

Pete from inside somewhere.

[Meriadoc]

-{ Quote: "Any suggestions?

Pete from inside somewhere." }-
;D 8)

Well I could think of a Linux, Virtual Firewall, or a network analyser to a safe desktop for the kids. The scope is broad.

So your present come early this year Peter?;D

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: ";D 8)

Well I could think of a Linux, Virtual Firewall, or a network analyser to a safe desktop for the kids. The scope is broad.

So your present come early this year Peter?;D" }-

Hi Meriadoc

Actually I bought VMware for a practical reason. I run some stuff, that admittedly is almost like installing a virus. This way it's not clogging up the host, and I can easily dispose of it if I chose.

When I was asking for suggestions it was for the use of FDISR in a virtual machine. The snapshot feature makes it sort of redundant.

Pete

PS. Yeah there is a "toy" aspect to this program.;D

[Meriadoc]

-{ Quote: "Actually I bought VMware for a practical reason." }-
Ofcourse, I use alot in communications, network, server, security let alone the other testing I do - broad scope.
Yeah I mention snapshot previously, VMWare is one of my main 'tools.'

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "i figured wil would chime in on this one ;-)" }-
;D ;D ;D
-{ Quote: "Any suggestions?" }-
How about playing a networked game in two VM sessions?
-{ Quote: "Pete from inside somewhere." }-
I think I hear echoes...

[Acadia]

GOOD GRIEF!! As if FirstDefense isn't complex enough!! :wacko:

;) ;D

Acadia

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "GOOD GRIEF!! As if FirstDefense isn't complex enough!! :wacko:

;) ;D

Acadia" }-

Hi Acadia

Believe it or not the Vmware virtual machine is simplier than FDISR. I can take a snapshot with one click and typing a name. No reboot. If I want to revert to that snapshot, it's one click and no reboot. If I want to go sideways I can clone my machine. The time it takes is probablyl a function of the size of the virtual hardrive. Mine is 20gig, so it takes a few minutes.

One of the things I am using it for is AOL. I have had an aol address for so long, changing it isn't an option. Unfortunately their software is the best way to keep software history and equally unfortunately the software is just so much bloat. I really didn't want to install it on my new machine, so I didn't. It's sits in the virtual machine, and I can use it as I like, but it's not clogging up my machine.

Cheers,

Pete

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "One of the things I am using it for is AOL. I have had an aol address for so long, changing it isn't an option." }-
I sure love the IMAP service of AOL, have you tried to setup your regular email software (Outlook <Express/2003/2007>, Thunderbird or whatever) to connect to imap.aol.com?
That works like a charm and no bloatware needed.
Better: enable SSL!

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "I sure love the IMAP service of AOL, have you tried to setup your regular email software (Outlook <Express/2003/2007>, Thunderbird or whatever) to connect to imap.aol.com?
That works like a charm and no bloatware needed.
Better: enable SSL!" }-

I actually already tried that with Outlook 2003. It just didn't work that well and screwed up my pop3 accounts. Ended up disabling it. The other AOL feature I love is the CD quality Radio@aol. Since the VM machine can use my machines sound card, the quality is excellent. This part is actually working better than I hoped.

Pete

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "The other AOL feature I love is the CD quality Radio@aol." }-
Concerning VMWare and FD-ISR ( ;) ): Is this not the same?

http://www.geocities.com/wilbertnl/images/aolradio.png

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "Concerning VMWare and FD-ISR ( ;) ): Is this not the same?

http://www.geocities.com/wilbertnl/images/aolradio.png" }-

No, not by a long shot. To do the same thing with FDISR, I'd have to either make another snapshot, or archive. Then when I want AOL I'd either have to boot to that snapshot, or, update with the archive, and then update with a non AOL archive when done. That would sort of preclude doing anything else that I might want to preserve.

With the VM, I can as I am doing right now, work in the primary snapshot thus preserving anything I do, and the VM with AOL is there running minimized.


ON a slightly different angle, going back to what Eric was doing, trying to keep one frozen snapshot to do stuff in, it is really easy with VM. No reboots or anything, just revert to a snapshot when done. Downside of course is cost.



Pete

[kennyboy]

Its all fascinating about this VM thingy. Thought I had reached the pinnacle when I installed FDR...;D

So does it take a Supercomputer to run this VM as well as lots of diskspace? Dont think my old thing is up to the task somehow. Love to try though.

Dont you get totally confused about which programs snapshot inside what other programs snapshot you are in?

[Acadia]

If you catch or contract a virus or trojan while in a virtual program, can it spread pass or beyond the virtual program into your "real" system?

Acadia

[wilbertnl]

Some fun with Parallels for Windows (http://www.parallels.com/en/download/) on my low-end system. ;D

http://www.geocities.com/wilbertnl/images/parallels.png

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "Its all fascinating about this VM thingy. Thought I had reached the pinnacle when I installed FDR...;D

So does it take a Supercomputer to run this VM as well as lots of diskspace? Dont think my old thing is up to the task somehow. Love to try though.

Dont you get totally confused about which programs snapshot inside what other programs snapshot you are in?" }-

Depends on what you want to do. VMware suggests a minimum of a 256mg machine. Since I wanted to play and have the resources I gave my VM 1024mg of ram, and built a 20g virtual hard drive. Yes if you want to do this and have good response you do need a good computer.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "If you catch or contract a virus or trojan while in a virtual program, can it spread pass or beyond the virtual program into your "real" system?

Acadia" }-

Probably not. The only disk access the machine has is it's own drive. You can even look at the bios and it only sees it's own resources.

And while First Defense only protects you from trashing the system, in the vm machine you can trash the disk and recover easily. To test I build a 2nd hard drive and imaged the virtual system to it. Then I did a restore, and aborted it which naturally left the disk a mess. It recovered back to a snapshot in a couple of minutes.

Pete

[charincol]

For those who are queasy about the cost of VMWare, Microsoft Virtual PC is free now. It is almost as fast as VMWare Workstation. Microsoft OS's actually run a little smoother in it, making up for the performance hit a bit. I have used both and they are both very good.

Some of the differences are:

Networking, virtualized hardware, and *nix compatibility is better in VMWare making it preferable for absolute performance.

I can tell you that frozen snapshots seem to start a little quicker in Virtual PC. Win98 also boots a lot faster in it. XP runs a little better on Virtual PC. An nLite'd version of XP runs very well with only 128MB RAM allocated to it. Virtual PC also has a feature similar to VMWare. It's called undo disks. You select it, boot the virtual machine, the "hard disk" is now read only. All writes, including registry changes, file edits/saves, and any malicious activity is written to a separate file that you can choose to delete or commit when exiting the virtual machine. This makes for an ideal test environment for new or malicious software. If new software requires a reboot, no problem. Just reboot the virtual machine - the undo disk is kept until you EXIT the virtual machine.

Virtual PC is simpler.

VMWare's install is 2-3 times bigger, and uses more system ram when running. Not a real big deal.

Did I say the networking in VMWare is excellent? (Virtual PC has networking capability, it's just not as robust or easy to use.)

The 2 are the best for virtual machine software. I don't hold either above the other (even though this post may sound like I think Virtual PC is better than VMWare). I just think it's great to see others finding out how cool this type of software is and wanted to let people know about MS Virtual PC (which is free - way cool) and almost as good as VMWare in performance. It also just happens to be one of MS's best software's (a rarity). I have used both for different things.

P.S. Both totally isolate the guest OS from the host OS. Getting rid of malware is just a matter of deleting the hard disk file. It's a good idea to backup the hard disk to a compressed file. I use 7zip for mine.

[Meriadoc]

charincol :
-{ Quote: "Networking, virtualized hardware, and *nix compatibility is better in VMWare making it preferable for absolute performance." }-
Between MVPC and VMWare I'd agree on that.
-{ Quote: "I can tell you that frozen snapshots seem to start a little quicker in Virtual PC. " }-
Okay, but thats not my experience. I've found MVPC slower all round.
-{ Quote: "XP runs a little better on Virtual PC. An nLite'd version of XP runs very well with only 128MB RAM allocated to it." }-
Again not my experience, but nLite'd version is a very good idea, I've done exactly that.
-{ Quote: "Virtual PC is simpler." }-
Okay, but theres nothing hard about any of this, I think anyone could use the free MVPC, VMWare Server or Player with just alittle reading.
-{ Quote: "P.S. Both totally isolate the guest OS from the host OS. Getting rid of malware is just a matter of deleting the hard disk file. It's a good idea to backup the hard disk to a compressed file. I use 7zip for mine." }-
Very good point and suggestion charincol.

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "(even though this post may sound like I think Virtual PC is better than VMWare)." }-
What I hear you say is that Virtual PC is a better deal. ;)
-{ Quote: "Now that it appears it can be done, can someone enlighten me/us as to the possibilities/ benefits of doing so?." }-
The demo on this page (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtualpc/default.mspx) might give you ideas.
I'm surprised how well a Virtual Machine runs on my budget PC, for beta testing and evaluation (or AOL radio) it performs well.

[cerberus]

Hi all,

If you install FDISR and take snapshots, can you successfully install VMWare Player & VMWare Converter into one of these snapshots.

If so, are there any special steps that are needed ?


Tks
Cerberus

[cerberus]

Wasn't sure if it matter what order these were installed in.

[Peter2150]

Couple of thoughts

Virtual PC vs VMware

As far as ease of setting up. I both fairly easy until I hit networking. I never got Virtual PC 2007 beta networked which killed a lot of stuff. The VM machine just came up and was on line.

It was easy to get help for VM on their forum. Uh Microsoft, well thats another story

Vm has Hardware graphics accelerator support, don't know about VPC

Since I gave my VM 1024Meg of memory and a 20gig drive clearly resources aren't an issue for me. I have no comparison.

As far as FDISR, I just installed it in a snapshot like any other program. I set my VM machine on a second drive just to have it out of the way due to size. As to the converter, I didn't try it. I installed Windows in the VM machine from scratch. Using the converter might create activation issues. This way I was able to use a separate XP license.

Pete

[wilbertnl]

Peter and charincol,

I want to thank you for your inspiration, you motivated me to give Virtual PC 2004 a try and I find myself currently continuing the beta-test for imaging/snapshot software in a virtual Windows 2000 system.
I could never imagine that this works, but it does. It's a pleasure to watch it reboot while I continue working on the test report. ;D

By the way, Peter, VPC 2004 connects to the network right away. :thumb:
It is able to mount a couple VHDD's, I imagine storing the pagefile.sys and data on a second VHDD.
Also folders on the host are easily shared.

Again, thank you for motivating me to consider this. It's fun.

[Hermescomputers]

-{ Quote: "
Originally Posted by Acadia
If you catch or contract a virus or trojan while in a virtual program, can it spread pass or beyond the virtual program into your "real" system?

Acadia
" }-
It is possible to transfer a virus to the host of a virtual machine by sharing directories on the host with the VM.

-{ Quote: "Probably not. The only disk access the machine has is it's own drive. You can even look at the bios and it only sees it's own resources.
Pete" }-

As a side note you could allocate a directory on the "host" Operating system and use it to share data with the virtual machine. This directories content is "open" to virus and spy ware infection like your C: Drive in the VM in the event your VM gets infected by a bug... However nothing would boot from it on the Host and as such the virus would be passive until activated during a session of the host. Say by clicking on an infected executable... (Unless you shared C:\)

As for the best options you can run "VM Server" free of charge. That however requires Windows 2000 or 2003 Server to run. It beats the hell out of Microsoft on so many points, performance, resource utilization and not to mention networking and the ability to port VM's across a wide spectrum of systems.

Hope this helps!

[wilbertnl]

I create an empty virtual harddisk and I notice the feature of differential VHDD's. :o ;D

http://www.geocities.com/vanbakel@sbcglobal.net/graphics/vHDD.png

That is like having multiple snapshots, based on a baseline Virtual PC. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

Isn't that fascinating?

(Anyone experience with the free Virtual Iron (http://www.virtualiron.com/index.cfm)?)

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "Peter and charincol,

I want to thank you for your inspiration, you motivated me to give Virtual PC 2004 a try and I find myself currently continuing the beta-test for imaging/snapshot software in a virtual Windows 2000 system.
I could never imagine that this works, but it does. It's a pleasure to watch it reboot while I continue working on the test report. ;D

By the way, Peter, VPC 2004 connects to the network right away. :thumb:
It is able to mount a couple VHDD's, I imagine storing the pagefile.sys and data on a second VHDD.
Also folders on the host are easily shared.

Again, thank you for motivating me to consider this. It's fun." }-

Yes it is fun. Really blew my mind to see FDISR running in a VM. It's cool because you can test stuff for interaction with MBR with out damage to your host. I never tried VPC 2004, I fired up the VPC 2007 beta. But my machine has Nvidia network stuff, and I've learned it can be cranky.

One thing to check on VPC is there recovery back. VM's seems bullet proof. I essentally wiped out my drive, and the recovery was perfect.

I also have played with imaging. Still blows my mind.

Hey Wilbert, have you tried Eaz-Fix on the VM?

Pete

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "One thing to check on VPC is there recovery back. VM's seems bullet proof. I essentally wiped out my drive, and the recovery was perfect.

I also have played with imaging. Still blows my mind.

Hey Wilbert, have you tried Eaz-Fix on the VM?

Pete" }-
I know... I imagine mounting a vHDD from another VM and perform some disk management. (imaging, defrag, etc).
Well, I haven't seen recovery, but I found the differential VM's. :o
VPC has virtual disk writing, you can basically freeze a VM, modifications are discarded when you close a session. And you need to commit modifications if you want to save them.

Not eazFix, yet. I got a beta release from farstone.com for torture testing. ;) I'ts amazing that the pre-os simply functions. :thumb:
And the rest functions too.

Oops, just installed the free VMware Server (does support all Windows releases)...

[Peter2150]

What I like in the VM machine that makes it neat is if I trash the disk and make it totally unbootable even with say FDISR, with the machine closed I can go to the snapshot I took and I am back in business. That's seriously cool.

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "What I like in the VM machine that makes it neat is if I trash the disk and make it totally unbootable even with say FDISR, with the machine closed I can go to the snapshot I took and I am back in business. That's seriously cool." }-
Are there advantages of the snapshot feature compared to simple-minded copying the folder with *.vmdk files to a backup device?

[Hermescomputers]

-{ Quote: "Are there advantages of the snapshot feature compared to simple-minded copying the folder with *.vmdk files to a backup device?" }-

Snapshot allows you to make temporary test modification. Like say you wanted to try getting infected by a virus. You do it in a snapshot. it craps your system and u just "Go back" it is much faster and you can control iterations of the same image more effectively than copying but copying works almost the same...

I usually create a "Generic Base" VM and then load all kinds of experimental crap into the snapshots. Dont like the results you simply revert and re load a new "custom" set and off you go. You cant do that quickly with a copy. and over time you cant see what you have done either. Snapshots have a neat view mode to allow tracking... You can also start working in the snapshot as it is being "manufactured" without much care about it... very neat technology. Saves me hours.

I am currently running 6 operating systems 4 of which are versions of Linux.
Here is a pic of what it looks like just for fun! :-*

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "Are there advantages of the snapshot feature compared to simple-minded copying the folder with *.vmdk files to a backup device?" }-

Probably the biggest advantage is time. I can go back to a snapshot in a couple of minutes. You know how long it takes to copy a 20gb file.

[Peter2150]

I just did a test to see how bullet proof the snapshots are. First I created a clone, and then took a snapshot. Then I booted to my bart disk in the vm, and using acronis, I repartitioned and reformated the c drive. Needless to say the VM wouldn't boot. Then selected the recovery point, and in a matter of minutes was back to normal. Adds a dimension to the kind of stuff I'll try.

[cerberus]

What is in place to prevent somebody installing the 30day trial vmworkstation into one or more Fsidr snapshots, then simply deleting the snapshot and starting again at the 30 day point. How do programs defend themselves from this ?

If it can be done repeatedly - is it then possible to use the original XP disc/licence no. to create a virtual machine using Vmworkstation ? This to be used for testing up to the point where the Windows activation becomes due.

[Hermescomputers]

-{ Quote: "What is in place to prevent somebody installing the 30day trial vmworkstation into one or more Fsidr snapshots, then simply deleting the snapshot and starting again at the 30 day point. How do programs defend themselves from this ?" }-

Have you ever heard of a "Time Server"?

-{ Quote: "If it can be done repeatedly - is it then possible to use the original XP disc/licence no. to create a virtual machine using Vmworkstation ? This to be used for testing up to the point where the Windows activation becomes due." }-

Here is a nice trick for "El Cheapos" like you! :)
Install VMware Workstation then create a large stack of Virtual Machines.... then uninstall VMware Workstation and use the "Free" VMware Player to work with all the Virtual Machines you already created....
It works, its legal and cheap! real cheap! as in Free!

This way u can get real addicted to Vmware and eventually purchase it... I hope!

as for the last part of your statement.... Yer pushing it!

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "One thing to check on VPC is there recovery back." }-
VPC has the undo option. Boot into a VM, do whatever you please and when you close the session you have a couple options:
- Make the changes permanent by merging the undo information with the VM.
- Save the changes in a undo file.
- Discard the changes.

Does that sound like software virtualization in a virtual machine?

VPC uses a dynamic sized disk, which makes the installation of Windows into it slow. I bet there are tweaks that I yet haven't discovered.
If repartitioning/formatting of a fully installed disk isn't committed permanently, then I think that VPC is offering a fast recovery too.
I also want to see what a differential VM does, it sounds promising.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "VPC has the undo option. Boot into a VM, do whatever you please and when you close the session you have a couple options:
- Make the changes permanent by merging the undo information with the VM.
- Save the changes in a undo file.
- Discard the changes.

Does that sound like software virtualization in a virtual machine?

VPC uses a dynamic sized disk, which makes the installation of Windows into it slow. I bet there are tweaks that I yet haven't discovered.
If repartitioning/formatting of a fully installed disk isn't committed permanently, then I think that VPC is offering a fast recovery too.
I also want to see what a differential VM does, it sounds promising." }-

Sounds like the same functionality with a slightly different implementation. Still blew my mind to be able to reformat the disk and simply back to what I had. THis offers a different level of testing. I've been playing with the different imaging programs I have, only testing bare metal restores as opposed to just restoring. SOme interesting results.

Pete

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "What is in place to prevent somebody installing the 30day trial vmworkstation into one or more Fsidr snapshots, then simply deleting the snapshot and starting again at the 30 day point. How do programs defend themselves from this ?

If it can be done repeatedly - is it then possible to use the original XP disc/licence no. to create a virtual machine using Vmworkstation ? This to be used for testing up to the point where the Windows activation becomes due." }-

Cerberus

You probably could do exactly what you are asking about and it work with many programs. Just remember one thing beyond technology. That is in life what goes around generally comes around. You do good, you will get good. You take advantage of people, and you will get taken advantage of. Simple. If you find software of value, then pay for it. You will be the better for it.

Pete (getting back off soapbox)

[cerberus]

Hi all

Not that I have a deal of faith in the Karma thing Peter, my questions are based on curiosity, not the need to save a few coppers.

I don't presently have the resources on my test box to make running WMworkstation a viable proposition. Still, as I was looking at the VMworkstation trial page in the same local timeframe as I was re-installing XP and faced with re-activation, the questions arose. More particularly, how do programs defend against abuse by imaging. Do they have to react in the same way as some malware, seeking out program signatures and presenting a targetted response ?

I am running fdsir and hope to test the VMware Converter within a snapshot, just to see how it plays. VMPlayer installed fine. I tried installing the converter a couple of days ago and failed with a runtime error. Apart from being fully patched and having FF 2.0 installed, there was only fdsir on the box. I tried several variations of snapshots, disabling pre-boot etc but nothing worked.

I tested the convertor install on another box and it seemed to install properly, so not a corrupt download .

I'm presently reformatting to try again just to see what happens.

I want them to function in a snapshot as they won't be staying on the testbox beyond the experiment. The advantage to me of fdisr is that I can have fairly small responsive images. My memory of using Ubuntu in VMPlayer some months ago, was that it was too slow on my box, to be a sustainable experience for me.

It's all about gaining new experiences & options.:cool:

[kennyboy]

Could anyone compare Parallels Workstation with VM Workstation please.
I have read that Parallels is easier to use, but does that mean that VMware is that difficult? Would like some advice before committing to either.
Also, as I dont have a big enough HD to accomodate these, is it possible to allocate space on my External HD for the VM, and how would this work with FDR?

On second thoughts, maybe it wouldnt work at all as FDR only works on the C drive of course, so it would be impossible to install the VM in a snapshot on C and use the Ext HD as the disk space....wouldnt it??
Many Thanks for any help.

[wilbertnl]

Kennyboy, I started my Virtual Machine journey with Parallels.
It feels a lot like Microsoft Virtual PC. It works really well and smooth. I think that VMware has the most features of all.
For me, I'm happy with the free MS-VPC.
You will be able to install Parallels/VPC/VMware in your snapshot on C: and store the virtual harddrive on a different disk.

[Acadia]

Forgive the stupid questions, but I must admit that this virtual stuff is WAAAAAAY over my head.

Using Microsoft's freebie Virtual PC 2004, could I install a Virtual PC inside of one of my many Snapshots? If so, whenever I use that Snapshot to update another, would I now have two Snapshots with a Virtual PC? Thanks.

Acadia

[wilbertnl]

Acadia, each Virtual PC requires a Virtual Harddisk, which takes disk space (for example 16 GB), unless you store that on a second partition it will reside in your FD-ISR snapshot and it will be copied when you copy/update snapshots.

Anyway, this is what I did:
I cleaned out a VPC with OEM installation and compacted it. Then I created two differencing vHDD's based on that OEM vHDD.
It works as expected, now I have two installations ready to go and they live their own lives.

Notice in this picture that win_xp01 had IE7 and win_xp02 hasn't. Still both are derivates of the same OEM.
I needed to change the system names, since they were initially identical and on the same network.
No reinstallation or imaging needed anymore, just create a new derivate of the optimized OEM VPC! :thumb:

On top of that: I have the OEM vHDD on a different hard disk (call that pseudo RAID, Peter).

http://www.geocities.com/wilbert_vanbakel/grapgics/vpc001.png

[kennyboy]

wilbertnl.

Many thanks for the great info. As you say I can have the Virtual HD on my Ext disk, would that disk then contain the OS, or does the VM just use it for storage of data etc?

Your reply to Acadia has me totally lost. You are referring to:- 1. a Virtual PC, and 2. Virtual HDDs (vHDD) As I dont yet have any of these programs, I must be missing a basic principle here.
Are you saying that you can create several vHDDs inside a Virtual PC or......... several VPCs, each with several vHDDs inside them?
As yet I cant see the point of creating more than one vHDD inside one VPC. I know I am missing something vital. Could you explain more please?

Acadia. ...Bet you I am more lost than you are....:blink:

[Peter2150]

OKay guys I am using VMware but the principle is the same.

I installed the VMware in a c: drive snapshot. Any copy I do from that snapshot takes the VMware program with it.

However since I was building a fairly big machine I didn't want it in the snapshot, so I built a VM machine, and the machine itself resides on my 2nd internal drive. The harddrive is 20g so clearly I only want one copy. Right now the total size of the machine is 22gb. But since I wanted also to play with imaging, I cloned that machine into another one, that I placed on my External USB drive. I have more room there, and what I have in the 2nd vm machine is a 20g drive and a 2nd hard drive that is 10g. I set them up so they don't expand as needed as then they end up as dynamic disks. So the 2nd machine as it exists has 30g of drive space. I done some interesting imaging tests this way. Was very interesting being able to test bare metal restores this way.

Acadia. The software resides in your c drive snapshot. The machines themselves can be placed elsewhere.

Now if you really want your mind messed up consider this. VM machine in FDISR snapshot. FDISR in no. vm machine. Vmmachine software in FDISR snapshot in vm machine no.1 and so on and so on and so on. I know some one who just did this with vm machines and got 5 levels deep.;D

I tell you though the combo of VM machines, FDISR, and imaging gives you some heady recovery.

Tomorrow, I will post the new way I am using FDISR. This is still one heck of a program.

Pete

[charincol]

-{ Quote: "Acadia, each Virtual PC requires a Virtual Harddisk, which takes disk space (for example 16 GB), unless you store that on a second partition it will reside in your FD-ISR snapshot and it will be copied when you copy/update snapshots.

Anyway, this is what I did:
I cleaned out a VPC with OEM installation and compacted it. Then I created two differencing vHDD's based on that OEM vHDD.
It works as expected, now I have two installations ready to go and they live their own lives.

Notice in this picture that win_xp01 had IE7 and win_xp02 hasn't. Still both are derivates of the same OEM.
I needed to change the system names, since they were initially identical and on the same network.
No reinstallation or imaging needed anymore, just create a new derivate of the optimized OEM VPC! :thumb: " }-

By doing what you've done, you now have multiple "machines" that take up a heck of a lot less space this way.

[charincol]

-{ Quote: "wilbertnl.

Many thanks for the great info. As you say I can have the Virtual HD on my Ext disk, would that disk then contain the OS, or does the VM just use it for storage of data etc?

Your reply to Acadia has me totally lost. You are referring to:- 1. a Virtual PC, and 2. Virtual HDDs (vHDD) As I dont yet have any of these programs, I must be missing a basic principle here.
Are you saying that you can create several vHDDs inside a Virtual PC or......... several VPCs, each with several vHDDs inside them?
As yet I cant see the point of creating more than one vHDD inside one VPC. I know I am missing something vital. Could you explain more please?

Acadia. ...Bet you I am more lost than you are....:blink:" }-

It's probably a good idea to call them "virtual machines" or VM's, whether they are built in MS VPC or VMWare. Keeps things less confusing that way.

There really isn't any point to having another disk, for say the pagefile, in a virtual machine unless the second virtual disk resides on a separate physical disk. It is a good idea to put any virtual drives on a disk separate from where the VM software is installed.

[Meriadoc]

kennyboy :
-{ Quote: "Could anyone compare Parallels Workstation with VM Workstation please." }-
VMWare has been around longer, and just works! Parallels has a version for Mac although since August so does VMWare. Both Parallels and VMWare are very stable.
Parallels is fast and considerably cheaper at $49.99. If you buy VMWare Workstation before the 31st you get $50 rebate. Parallels cost more for the Mac and imo this was because they were the only player in the ring for intel Macs at one time but then again I think it contains the 'Compressor.'
I wouldn't say there's much difference that makes Parallels easier, both Parallels and VMWare are pretty easy to pick up, have all the relevent help and both have a support forum although Parallels isnt a patch on VMWare community and forum.
VMWare has free Player (and Server) version but cannot do what Workstation or Parallels does although there is easyvmx.com that you can download the files needed for the os you are going to use.
Parallels does the same job as Workstation and is comparable side by side. In some peoples opinions it surpases VMWare Workstation in some, personnally I like VMWare and been using it and been supported by them for years, a very professional company and mature program - industrial strength virtualization.
I believe at the moment Parallels has a lack for certain graphics, might be something to think of with Vista and has issues with USB.

[kennyboy]

Meriadoc and Charincol

Many thanks for your useful info. It gives me more food for thought, and I will come back with more questions no doubt.

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "You are referring to:- 1. a Virtual PC, and 2. Virtual HDDs (vHDD) As I dont yet have any of these programs, I must be missing a basic principle here.
Are you saying that you can create several vHDDs inside a Virtual PC or......... several VPCs, each with several vHDDs inside them?" }-
The virtual Hard disk contains the operating system and other files, just like a regular hard disk.
The virtual machine holds the settings of the CPU, 'hardware', and memory, you are able to adjust the size of memory (only limited by physical memory) and the process priority. For example you can let the virtual machine run slower when you minimize the window. You can setup the virtual machine to access your CD or to access an ISO (install Windows from ISO!), to access the floppy drive or a floppy image.
Each virtual machine is able to mount three virtual harddisks or to mount real harddisks/folders.

So, I can start a win2000 virtual machine and perform disk management on the other virtual harddisk that holds the configuration of a win XP virtual machine. (Don't need BartPE anymore) I also can have several different virtual machines that use the same virtual hard disk, but have different 'hardware' setups. (I don't know if that is useful, but it's possible)

You are also able to boot from floppy/CD into an existing VM.
I have done that to verify the virtual partitions with Partition Table Doctor (http://ptdd.com/). The verdict is a healthy status.

Right now, I have a win2000 vHDD and a winXP vHDD. I have three different VM's, one with win2000 and two with winXP, different setups based on the same vHDD as you can see in the picture in my previous message.

I did setup a second vHDD for the pagefile.sys, thinking that each system vHDD would be smaller, but I'm reconsidering this setup. It is possible, though.

What do you think?

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "What is in place to prevent somebody installing the 30day trial vmworkstation into one or more Fsidr snapshots, then simply deleting the snapshot and starting again at the 30 day point. How do programs defend themselves from this ?" }-
I have seen software that stores evaluation records online. And you are permitted to one evaluation in six months...

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "First I created a clone, and then took a snapshot. Then I booted to my bart disk in the vm, and using acronis, I repartitioned and reformated the c drive. Needless to say the VM wouldn't boot. Then selected the recovery point, and in a matter of minutes was back to normal." }-
Allright, here the Virtual PC version of a similar test:

I already have a optimized and compacted installation vHDD (oem). I created a second vHDD, named Acronis, setup as differencing from oem..
I booted in Acronis, all fine, then I rebooted into the Disk Director CD and cleared the vHDD partition table. A reboot resulted in the expected boot error. Then I closed the session and committed the changes to the Acronis vHDD. I opened the same session and verified that it's damaged.

Then I created another differencing vHDD from the oem vHDD, named bigsmile. I booted into bigsmile and verified that it boots normal.

So, the root (here named oem) of differencing vHDD's is totally immune. :thumb:

Want to test, get infected or just have fun? Play in a differencing vHDD and when you are finished throw it away... :thumb:

[cerberus]

Just to add a little more information to the mix.

I have now installed the VMware Converter into an FDisr snapshot, together with VMPlayer.

It was easy, if a longer process, to create a hot clone of my Windows host.
A hot clone is making a copy of the host, while still running within that host. There is apparently the option to make a 'cold' clone using a bootup disc. I haven't checked this out yet.

I now have a clone of my original Windows install - call it clone.vmx. This is just launched with VMPlayer like any other *.vmx.

First thing to notice is that VM introduces it's own virtual hardware. The effect of this is to launch the Window's activation dialogue, giving me 3 days to activate my clone.vmx Windows. Understandable as it 'believes' it has detected a change in hardware that might indicate an install on a different physical machine.

I tested to see what happens when you try to create a virtual machine within the virtual machine. FDisr will run, but not give access to the snapshots to reboot within the VM. VMPlayer will not permit a machine within a machine.

Tks for an informative thread.

[kennyboy]

Ok Guys. Have taken the plunge and installed the trial version of VMWare Workstation.
Have created a VM and a vHD on an external USB Drive of 8GB. Everything seemed ok at this point, but as it recommended that I disable booting from the CD of course I couldnt load the OS. (Win XP)
So, I copied the FDR snapshot to leave it without VMWare and re-installed this time leaving the CD to boot from. Still not able to install the OS. Nothing shows on the VM screen at all apart from the VM logo, with the setup (f2) and the Boot (ESC) screen at the bottom. As I have no keyboard working in the VM it is impossible to get to either one of these, but then would it make a difference if I could?
The Windows install screen did show, but only on the Host screen. The other thing I noticed is that I had no keyboard access on the VM but did have mouse.
So, I made an ISO image of the OS and tried to get the VM to see it. I pointed the CDR drive to the ISO image but it doesnt boot at all.
Now, obviously after reading as much of the 400pages of help as I can, it is something that I am doing wrong, and I am hoping that someone here can help, BUT...
one thing I did notice is that after coping over the snapshot with my Primary snapshot to leave it clean of VMWare, when I re-installed it, it had remembered from somewhere the settings that I had given the VM on the previous install. ie amount of memory to be used etc. It seems there is a connection between these snapshots somewhere. Really can't make it out at all.
Anyway, if anyone can help me get this OS installed, I would be grateful.

[Peter2150]

Hi Kennyboy

Couple of things. You need to leave the CD bootable. What they recommend turning off is the autorun. big difference. Also is the CD you are trying to install from a Windows CD?

Once you start the machine the first time you need to be sure your mouse is in the windows and the click it. This moves control of the mouse to the VM. Then if you press Esc it will bring up the boot menu. At that point you should be able to use your keyboard to select the CD Rom.

Pete

[wilbertnl]

I have MS Virtual PC 2007 installed, so my information might be a little different, but I think the basics are the same.
First you need to setup the bios of the VM (yes!) to change the boot order to CD first. I have setup my VM bios to CD/floppy/vHD.
Then you need to attach the virtual CD drive to either your real CD drive or to an ISO.
After that, you reset the VM in order to boot again.
Don't forget to press any key to boot from CD. ;)

http://www.geocities.com/wilbert_vanbakel/graphics/bios.png

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "I have MS Virtual PC 2007 installed, so my information might be a little different, but I think the basics are the same.
First you need to setup the bios of the VM (yes!) to change the boot order to CD first. I have setup my VM bios to CD/floppy/vHD.
Then you need to attach the virtual CD drive to either your real CD drive or to an ISO.
After that, you reset the VM in order to boot again.
Don't forget to press any key to boot from CD. ;)" }-

Chuckled at the bios remark. You are like me still getting your mind wrapped around this whole thing. I just figured out with VM I can essentially do Rollback type snapshots. Hmm Rollback snapshots of a machine with FDISR installed, all residing in a machine which resides in an FDISR snapshot. (Peter goes off mumbling)

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "Hmm Rollback snapshots of a machine with FDISR installed, all residing in a machine which resides in an FDISR snapshot. " }-
And all of this to avoid installing AOL on your computer, because you want to listen to CD-quallity AOL radio without the bloat. ;D LOL ;D LOL ;D
;)

Anyway, are you in for VMWare 6 beta?

[MS Virtual PC 2007 beta + VMWare 6 beta. On one PC, please...]

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "And all of this to avoid installing AOL on your computer, because you want to listen to CD-quallity AOL radio without the bloat. ;D LOL ;D LOL ;D
;)

Anyway, are you in for VMWare 6 beta?

[MS Virtual PC 2007 beta + VMWare 6 beta. On one PC, please...]" }-


ROFLMAO!!! Funny how things start and where they end up. I may hold off on the VMware 6 beta as I am fooling with a slightly different form of machine destruction. What I love is I can mess with the partition size and all that kind of stuff and when I fall back to a recovery point everything is back the way it was. This stuff is amazing.

Seriously combined with FDISR and imaging it is unreal what you can do.

Hey Wilbert I hope you climb into 6.0, it sounds exciting. Keep ys posted. I am already spread thin, but heck I'll upgrade for sure.

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "Hey Wilbert I hope you climb into 6.0, it sounds exciting. Keep ys posted. I am already spread thin, but heck I'll upgrade for sure." }-
I bumped at the first installation error of VMWare 6-beta. Now I try to find my way to the beta forums...
MS Virtual PC 2007 beta was running without glitches.

Interesting how you and I have similar experiences with different software. :-\

[Meriadoc]

-{ Quote: "VMWare 6 beta?" }-
Welcome to 6 beta.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "I bumped at the first installation error of VMWare 6-beta. Now I try to find my way to the beta forums...
MS Virtual PC 2007 beta was running without glitches.

Interesting how you and I have similar experiences with different software. :-\" }-

Quite true he says while laughing.

Hey life is never dull doing this stuff.

[kennyboy]

Hi Peter and Wilbertnl.

Many thanks for your help. I would love to join in the fun, but so far have spent the last 3 hours trying to get the VM to boot from 3 different Windows cd's. I'll start from the beginning and give you the runthrough. sorry if its long.

Have tried the settings in VM on 1, Auto detect, 2, Drive H (CD Rom) 3, Drive J (Dvd RW) All on IDE 1:0. Then tried changing to "Use ISO image"

The results with the CD's were this:-

Insert Windows Disk....get Windows install screen on the Host window - exit this - start VM - click in the VM window - press ESC. - get boot screen which showed 1. CD Rom, 2, Removable Devices, 3, HDD, 4, Network Boot.
Selected CD Rom (1) CD Rom spins and then blank screen in the VM. Same with the DVD RW.
When trying to boot with the ISO, I get absolutely nothing at all.
Seems to me that the CD and DVD are booting ok because the Windows install screen is showing but only in the host system. The VM is just not seeing these drives.

A couple of points in your replies I am uncertain of.

Peter - You said I need to leave the CD bootable. Arnt I doing that by asking the VM to boot from it or is there something else I need to do?
Also, I notice that when the VM is started, that the CD Rom settings indicate that the device is connected. So why wont it boot? Also, should I be getting the Windows Install screen in the Host screen every time? Sure it is something simple but maybe I am too simple to see it. ???

Wilbertnl - You said "Then you need to attach the virtual CD drive to either your real CD drive or to an ISO.
After that, you reset the VM in order to boot again."
Not sure if I am doing this or not. I am selecting the CD Rom drive that is shown in the VM control panel and also selecting the image file to boot from the ISO when I try that.
I cant see where I can "attach" the virtual CD drive to the real CD Drive. Am I missing a basic principle here?

Then...you said - "After that, you reset the VM in order to boot again.
Don't forget to press any key to boot from CD. "

I dont even get the option to boot from cd. :-\ By the way, the VM "bios" (LOL) shows booting from CD rom first!

Really sorry for the bother guys, but very grateful for the help.

[kennyboy]

Hold it Guys. May have found a workaround. Not a solution though) Come back to you.

Had a thought about trying a different type of boot disk, so tried ATI, and Bart. BOTH booted in the VM!!.........(Silent scream) Having a close look at the Windows disks now, but all 3 cant be faulty, and why wont it see the ISO image? Incidentally, what do you set the boot to when you use an ISO? I have it on the desktop. I have tried all the settings for it.
Come back to you when I know more.

Thank goodness for FDR as it enables me to start afresh each time I play with the VM settings.

[wilbertnl]

Well, Kennyboy, from your messages I get that your understanding is allright.
While playing with both MS Virtual PC 2004/2007 and VMWare server/Workstation 6 beta, I notice that both companies have their own approach concerning features and virtualizing hardware.
If setting up VMWare turns out such a challenge for unclear reasons, I suggest that you give MS Virtual PC 2004 a try.

I don't intent to sound like "that is better", but you could have an easier evaluation. After all, it's all about enjoying what we are doing.

[kennyboy]

Seasonal Greetings to all here and at Wilders.

wilbertnl and Peter.
The latest is that I have now managed to install the OS on the virtual machine in VMWare. The 3 disks and the ISO just wouldnt do it, so have put together another one using nLite, and it boots fine now. Very strange, but to be fair, VMware do say that there can be difficulties with certain hardware setups, and recommend using an ISO. No idea why my ISO wouldnt work but never mind. Anyway, many thanks for your interest and help, and I am sure I will be back with more questions in the future.

PS. Santa didnt make it here this year. He took a wrong turn and ended up lost inside an ATI image of an FDR snapshot running a VMWare virtual machine inside a......:wacko:

[chrome_sturmen]

happy holidays guys ;)

I have a couple questions, regarding how I could beneficially implement vmware into my system. Currently, I have two partitions on my 1st drive: c: windows server 2003 with 3 isr snapshots, and d: partition-windows xp, just for games and basic functionality. I realize that I could've installed xp on my c: partition by using an empty snapshot from within isr, but I thought it a good idea, to actually have a true second partition, for a couple reasons:
- if an os on c: had errors, I could boot over to d: and check the c: disk and try and fix errors.
- if c: had a tough virus, I could boot over to d: and kill the virus from there
- sometimes you need to boot to another partition, to move files etc that would otherwise always be in use
- if I wanted to make a partition image with acronis, it's quicker to make an image of that d: partition, rather than the whole disc

I dont see how these things could be viably done (at least in the context im speaking of) without using an os from a true seperate partition. namely:

- trying to check errors for a snapshot from another snapshot is a no go
- I do guess you could boot to another snapshot and scan the infected isr folder from there, so that might be ok
- being able to move of work with system files that are in use doesnt work as with a true seperate partition


It seems to me, that no matter the extent of virtualization capabilities, there will always be a need for that true second partition. Who agress/disagrees on this? I'm interested in hearing supported/theoretical opinions.


Now then, that being said, reading about vmware gives me some cool ideas. I am wondering at this point if working inside a virtual machine is a smooth operation, enough so to use permanently and regularly.

As regards playing games, what are thoughts on gaming from an xp install on a second partition, as opposed to playing from an xp install on a virtual machine from within server 2003, as opposed to playing games in an xp install into an isr snapshot? My thoughts in this case is thats its better from the second partition, because I can keep it tightly defragged, partition imaging wouldnt take long, and I wouldnt need that extra memory pull needed to run the virtual machine.

At the most fundamental, these questions and others yet unasked, originate from a strong desire, to maintain system stability and wield a tight managment over the system. Theres nothin quite so bothersome, as making a small mistake, rebooting to a blue screen, and thinking "oh relax, in a month i'll have everything set up again".


Could I try ubuntu (which i've been wanting to try for awhile now) with vmware?

I know of one cool usage of vmware- I could dabble with viruses ;) As is stands now, anytime I try to deploy a virus just for fun, nod32 kills it, or one of ten other apps does. I could make a vm with no security apps and dabble with viri right from my os, rather than having to boot to a snapshot just for the purpose, could I not?

Forgive the long rants, I am trying, to grasp the capabilities and ultimately institute a permanent structure on my hard disks- even when allocating myself a "playground" I want that area to be within an unwavering structure- if that makes sense ;(

I'd like some opinions, advice, thoughts, or just whatever, even if its not relevant to what i've discussed.

thanks!

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "I dont see how these things could be viably done (at least in the context im speaking of) without using an os from a true seperate partition. <..> It seems to me, that no matter the extent of virtualization capabilities, there will always be a need for that true second partition. Who agress/disagrees on this? I'm interested in hearing supported/theoretical opinions." }-
You prefer a separate system partition for maintenance, and that is a valid idea, other people use Bart PE for the same reason.
There is no disadvantage of your solution, other than disk space.
-{ Quote: "Now then, that being said, reading about vmware gives me some cool ideas. I am wondering at this point if working inside a virtual machine is a smooth operation, enough so to use permanently and regularly." }-
I have had similar ideas, and I think that working in a virtualized pc performs well, except perhaps for resource intensive applications, like high-end games or video editing.
But why would you move into a closet for your office work?
The advantage of a VM is that you can throw it away and startover without having to reboot and/or restore your system. So I lean towards using a VM for test/evaluation purpose.
Or for an application that I would rather not install on a permanent basis. (For example Quicktime bloatplayer)
I picture a few VM's with conflicting sofware and turning these VM's on/off at will. Or run at the same time...
I suggest that you give your idea a go, and share your experience with us. Nothing is more valuable than practical experience.
-{ Quote: "As regards playing games, what are thoughts on gaming from an xp install on a second partition, as opposed to playing from an xp install on a virtual machine from within server 2003, as opposed to playing games in an xp install into an isr snapshot?" }-
I'm not much of a gamer, but I understand that gamers benifit from a setup where anything that is not required for the game is disabled.
So, I would create a Windows installaton without network/security software, etc. It doesn't matter where you do that, except that when you allocate a separate partition for that purpose, you can't use it for anything else with ease. A FD-ISR snapshot would be the most efficient choice for that reason.
-{ Quote: "Could I try ubuntu (which i've been wanting to try for awhile now) with vmware?" }-
Do you mean Ubuntu as host or as guest?
Both ways would be possible.
-{ Quote: "I know of one cool usage of vmware- I could dabble with viruses ;) As is stands now, anytime I try to deploy a virus just for fun, nod32 kills it, or one of ten other apps does. I could make a vm with no security apps and dabble with viri right from my os, rather than having to boot to a snapshot just for the purpose, could I not?" }-
Absolute, my VM is not able to reach the host, unless I create shared folders.

Your thoughts are interesting and we all enjoy thinking about pushing the limits beyond imagination. Or imagine beyond limits. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your ideas, as long as we remember that what works for one does not automatically work for the other. But it all works in some way.

[chrome_sturmen]

Great points Wil- i'm glad you could give me more ideas. For me, it's all about getting a solid structure in place and leaving it be.
-{ Quote: "I'm not much of a gamer, but I understand that gamers benifit from a setup where anything that is not required for the game is disabled.
So, I would create a Windows installaton without network/security software, etc. It doesn't matter where you do that, except that when you allocate a separate partition for that purpose, you can't use it for anything else with ease. A FD-ISR snapshot would be the most efficient choice for that reason." }-

The xp installed over on the d: partition is offline, with only 1 on demand virus scanner. If I use this partition for double duty ( games, basic utility+ on demand manitenance) I think this in this case overrides the convenience of isr (especially considering i've got 3 or 4 snapshots on c I can use).

So then, acronis + isr + vmware - a 3 tiered recovery layer. Use acronis for partition level restore and imaging, isr so hopefully you dont need the acronis, and vmware so hopefully you dont need the isr :)

For instance, rather than creating or updating an isr archive or duplicate snapshot before trying questionable spoftware, you could try it on an identically built vm, and if it worked out, you could institute those changes on your host system. (I mean perform the setup that was first tried on the vm, I know things in a vm cant be applied to the host system).

Do you know if a vm can be created based on the host os, or will I have to do a fresh os install into the vm?

Thanks for the help

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "Do you know if a vm can be created based on the host os, or will I have to do a fresh os install into the vm?" }-
Take a look at the VMWare Converter (http://www.vmware.com/products/beta/converter/).
I lean towards a clean installation, though, since the virtual hardware is not identical to the host hardware.

[Peter2150]

Hi Guys

Don't know where to start to catch up.

1. I only use XP Pro, and I don't partition. To me thats a personal choice, I just go with one and it works for me.

2. I've stopped keeping to full FDISR snaps on the disk. I keep a working primary, and a just bootable secondary. Everything else is archives. Has worked well.

3. As to VM's, like FDISR, the only limit is imagination. I use them for both test beds, and some bloatware I don't want on my system(Yep AOL). I also have FDISR running in the VM machine, just so it closely matches my host.

4. I also built my system up from scratch. It was a fun experience.

5. VMware allows you to do things you can't do with FDISR or Rollback. For example you can set a recovery point, and then delete the partitions, and otherwise trash the disk. THen go to the recovery point, and you are right back again.

6. Games wise, I only play with MS Train Sim. It needs hardware accelerator. You can simulate that in VMware. It worked, but wasn't the greatest. Will take another look at this with VMware 6.0.

7. I like the fact that VMware, allows me to use my audio hardware and drivers, instead of the pseudo ones. Better sound.

8. As far as configuration, partitioning, snapshots, vmware etc. I don't think there is any best way. Just have at it in a way you want, try it, and it works, great. If not try again.

Pete

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "7. I like the fact that VMware, allows me to use my audio hardware and drivers, instead of the pseudo ones. Better sound." }-
Motivated by a 89 year old whizzkid I installed Windows 98 in a VM, and I couldn't get the sound drivers setup in VMWare 6.
In Virtual PC 2007 sound was working right away.

All I want to say with this example is that hardware emulation could be great is it works, but also could be challenging with some operating systems.

Here (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=910268&postcount=8) is a nice function of VM's, catching boot screens.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "Motivated by a 89 year old whizzkid I installed Windows 98 in a VM, and I couldn't get the sound drivers setup in VMWare 6.
In Virtual PC 2007 sound was working right away.

All I want to say with this example is that hardware emulation could be great is it works, but also could be challenging with some operating systems.

Here (http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=910268&postcount=8) is a nice function of VM's, catching boot screens." }-

Interesting, but remember 6.0 is an early beta. 5.5 had no trouble with my creative IFX sound card. I would suspect W98 is going to start getting dodgy on any of this stuff.

[kennyboy]

Having started to play with VM, a couple of observations/questions.
1. I was hoping to install the drivers for my video and monitor in the VM but it doesnt seem to work. It just seems to run on the VM emulated drivers. I note that you guys are using your own audio drivers in your VM's. How are you doing that? My idea was to be able to use 2 monitors and have a different VM running in each VM. I have seen that this is possible using fast-switch but it doesnt seem to work on my setup.
2. Is it right that I can not have 2 VM's running if I am using just one vitual disk? I cant see where it says this, but I get some weird error message when I try and start the second VM.
3. While the drag and drop from the Host to the VM screen works fine, the Copy and Paste does not. It is configured to do this but doesnt. Anyone else have this?
4. When I am running the VM, my connection shows 1Gbps. Not bad on a 384Mbps wireless connection.....:)
5. Maybe I am just too old to get to grips with the complexities of VM's Born 25years too early maybe....;D

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "Having started to play with VM, a couple of observations/questions.
1. I was hoping to install the drivers for my video and monitor in the VM but it doesnt seem to work. It just seems to run on the VM emulated drivers. I note that you guys are using your own audio drivers in your VM's. How are you doing that? My idea was to be able to use 2 monitors and have a different VM running in each VM. I have seen that this is possible using fast-switch but it doesnt seem to work on my setup.
2. Is it right that I can not have 2 VM's running if I am using just one vitual disk? I cant see where it says this, but I get some weird error message when I try and start the second VM.
3. While the drag and drop from the Host to the VM screen works fine, the Copy and Paste does not. It is configured to do this but doesnt. Anyone else have this?
4. When I am running the VM, my connection shows 1Gbps. Not bad on a 384Mbps wireless connection.....:)
5. Maybe I am just too old to get to grips with the complexities of VM's Born 25years too early maybe....;D" }-

1. On the audio drivers, it asked me if i wanted to do this, I guess it detected them

2. I don't think you can. You can't do this with real computers either, onless it's on a network.
3. Same here. Haven't figured it out myself. My be a bug. 6.0 coming
4. I don't see this.
5. No comment.;D

Pete

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "2. Is it right that I can not have 2 VM's running if I am using just one vitual disk? I cant see where it says this, but I get some weird error message when I try and start the second VM." }-
MS Virtual PC offers the feature of differencing disks. I'm able to maintain one single base disk and create derivates that hold the modifications while you work.
-{ Quote: "4. When I am running the VM, my connection shows 1Gbps. Not bad on a 384Mbps wireless connection.....:)" }-
Sounds like you got a emulated 1Gb NIC.
-{ Quote: "5. Maybe I am just too old to get to grips with the complexities of VM's Born 25years too early maybe....;D" }-
You will get more excited when you discover the power of VM and got around the setup challenges.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "MS Virtual PC offers the feature of differencing disks. I'm able to maintain one single base disk and create derivates that hold the modifications while you work.

" }-

I think VM is actually differencing the disk somehow with it's snapshots. Thats different then what was being asked namely can you use the same virtual disk for two different virtual machines, and there I think the answer is a clear no.

Pete(in virtual land)

[kennyboy]

-{ Quote: "I think VM is actually differencing the disk somehow with it's snapshots. Thats different then what was being asked namely can you use the same virtual disk for two different virtual machines, and there I think the answer is a clear no.

Pete(in virtual land)" }-

Ahhhh. I was confused because I remember wilbertnl saying he could run 2 VM's in a single vHD. I dont really understand this "differencing" business, so I got the impression that this could be done on VM ware.
So what I need to do is create several vHDDs and run a VM in each one? Take a lot of space that.

Peter. On the Video and monitor business, do you see a way of intalling these in a VM? I have tried and it goes ok but when I look at the VM settings, it is still running on the VM emulation drivers. Without my video drivers, I have no chance of running the 2 screens.

wilbertnl. How are you getting on with VMware beta?
Thanks as usual.

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "Ahhhh. I was confused because I remember wilbertnl saying he could run 2 VM's in a single vHD. I dont really understand this "differencing" business, so I got the impression that this could be done on VM ware." }-
Let me try to explain this.
You need to compare differencing vHD's with differential backups (http://www.tech-faq.com/differential-backup.shtml).
In a separate container you store all the file changes, compared to the reference container.

I created a vHD with a complete Windows installation, updated and optimized. I call that the Windows container.
Then I create two or more work containers, that only hold the files that differ from the Windows container (Temp files, changed files, new created files, additional installations, etc). Since these two work containers have their own work space which doesn't interfere with the Windows container, I have the experience of creating unlimited VM's that are based on the same installation vHD.
The Windows container is the template for my work containers.

What I like about this concept is that I'm able to create a differencing new VM, use it and throw it away.

edit: VMware features linked clones, I assume that is quite similar.

-{ Quote: "wilbertnl. How are you getting on with VMware beta?" }-
I'm not sure, I find myself switching between MS Virtual PC 2007 and VMware 6 beta and not actually make it productive and useful so far.
I'm very excited about getting to understand the power and possibilities of this virtualization of a complete system. I'm still amazed, since I assumed that a VM would run sluggish, which it doesn't. (Except when the dynamic sized vHD is expanded)
I have a lot of fun, I installed Windows 98 in a VM, and that brought lots of memories back.
But I assume that you are interested in my assessment of VMware 6, and that I don't know yet. VMware has more features, more tweaks. probably better performance when tweaked. MS Virtual PC is easy to setup and 'runs out of the box'. With standard virtual drivers I experience that MS VPC runs snappier, compared to standard virtual drivers of VMware.

Assuming that you use FD-ISR, it could be interesting for you to install the free MS Virtual PC 2004/2007 in another snapshot and experience the difference.

[Peter2150]

One example of what I've done with VM stuff that has been helpful to me is this.

I am undertaking a little experiment, and it involves changing partition sizes and imaging. I've never done this, and I bought BootitNG to use to change the partition size, but I wondered if once done, how my standard images would do restoring, and resetting the partitions.

In all honesty doing this was a bit scary to me as I've never done this, and I do use these machines for business.

Well i was able to run thru the whole exercise on a virtual machine. I got to see what happened when I did different things with the programs, and what messages came up(some of which were a bit scary), and how to deal with them. Totally realistic.

Once I'd done this and knew what to expect and what to do, it was a piece cake to actually do it for real.

As far as VM 6.0 two things have me excited. The full vista support and the multi monitor support.

As to Microsoft vs VM, I think VM is going to be the serious contender. I think if you talk to almost any of the vendors whose product we talk about I think you'd discover a majority of them use VM ware stuff for one thing or another. It is considered the flagship product. For us it's just a decision as to whether it's worth the money.

Pete

[chrome_sturmen]

hey pete, in about another hour, i'll have vmware server downloaded- its free-why is it free, have any idea?

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "hey pete, in about another hour, i'll have vmware server downloaded- its free-why is it free, have any idea?" }-

I believe it has limitations on what you can do. Like I believe with server you can only take one snapshot, and workstation it is unlimited. You'd have to compare to be sure.

[Meriadoc]

-{ Quote: "vmware server why is it free" }-
It was meant as a 'stepping-stone' to the Virtual Infrastructure.
With Server any company interested in evaluating server virtualization has access to the leading virtualization technology and makes it easy for companies new to virtualization to take the first step toward enterprise wide virtual infrastructure.
GSX + support/subscription (12mths) is 3 1/2 thousand dollars(unlimited processor license.) VMware Server costs nothing up to eight processors and comes with no support.

[chrome_sturmen]

well, I managed to get vmware server installed and get win2k3 installed into the vm, but I got a small error during installation, which i'm working on sorting out- i've got some posts over on the vmware forum. initially in an attempt to get rid of the errors, I uninstalled/reinstalled a couple times, and managed to render my system unbootable. Unfortunately, i'd forgotten to update my isr snapshot, and this was the snapshot on which I had EVERYTHING installed. So, I did a repair install of windows into this snapshot, and I had it back up and running in no time, after which I promptly created a duplicate snap of the system. It was cool, how my other small snapshots were still intact just as i'd left them ;)


http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n294/nachtvarg/Forum_Bilder/Vmware_server.jpg




Wilbert, I put some thought into what you were saying the other day, about having a true second partition for maintenance vs other methods, and I decided on a compromise: Rather than keep a 40 gig second partition for maintenance/gaming, I sliced that 40 gig down to 5 gigs, gave the free space to c: for isr. I'll use the second partition only for emergency/auxillary purposes, and in c: I created an empty snapshot and installed xp into it, for which i'll play games if I want. It's nice to have snapshot flexibility with xp, as I do with server. As far as i'm concerned, I'm willing to devote nearly the whole of my 80 gig to isr, it's worth it for the flexibility and recovery purposes I gain. For acronis images, isr archives, and future vms, I have a second 200 gig sata. Have any further advice? Always appreciated ;-)

[wilbertnl]

I have been listening to Steve Gibsons podcasts (http://www.grc.com/SecurityNow.htm) concerning Virtual Machines and in episode #59 (http://www.grc.com/sn/SN-059.txt), he states that Parallels (http://www.parallels.com/) outperforms both MS Virtual PC and VMWare Workstation.
-{ Quote: "STEVE: ...right now I have all this in my head. I’ve got machines with known performance. I’ve been comparing – well, and the good news is, Parallels outperforms everybody else." }-

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "I have been listening to Steve Gibsons podcasts (http://www.grc.com/SecurityNow.htm) concerning Virtual Machines and in episode #59 (http://www.grc.com/sn/SN-059.txt), he states that Parallels (http://www.parallels.com/) outperforms both MS Virtual PC and VMWare Workstation." }-

Yes, and Steve Gibson, is indeed the leading expert on this, well at least he is according to Steve Gibson.

I would take what he says as a starting point, but thats all.

[chrome_sturmen]

-{ Quote: "I have been listening to Steve Gibsons podcasts concerning Virtual Machines and in episode #59, he states that Parallels outperforms both MS Virtual PC and VMWare Workstation." }-


-{ Quote: "Yes, and Steve Gibson, is indeed the leading expert on this, well at least he is according to Steve Gibson." }-


who's steve gibson? who am i for that matter, apart from someone writing this from a vmware dedicated snapshot, within a vm, within a vm, on which which isr is installed and im under yet another vm ;)

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "who's steve gibson? who am i for that matter, apart from someone writing this from a vmware dedicated snapshot, within a vm, within a vm, on which which isr is installed and im under yet another vm ;)" }-

Steve Gibson hosts grc.com which is famous for it's Shields Up firewall test. Steve's company also sells Spinrite which is a good bad disk recovery tool

Downside is Steve is a self proclaimed expert in many area's. There is good info on his site, you just have to sift the chaff from the wheat.

[chrome_sturmen]

-{ Quote: "Downside is Steve is a self proclaimed expert in many area's. There is good info on his site, you just have to sift the chaff from the wheat." }-

unfortunately, my forte' isnt harvesting, my strong points lie moreso in the "stick the power line into the water and watch the fish float up" type approach ;(

I empathize with steve, however, as I am a self proclaimed expert in not a small amount of disciplines myself- chielfy amongst these being the ability to forget im not in a vm but on my actual host machine, and format my drive- rebooting to find i've lost all my snapshots and the os itself ;-(


j/k

[tobacco]

-{ Quote: "I empathize with steve, however, as I am a self proclaimed expert in not a small amount of disciplines myself- chielfy amongst these being the ability to forget im not in a vm but on my actual host machine, and format my drive- rebooting to find i've lost all my snapshots and the os itself j/k" }-

ROFL ;D

[kennyboy]

-{ Quote: "

I empathize with steve, however, as I am a self proclaimed expert in not a small amount of disciplines myself- chielfy amongst these being the ability to forget im not in a vm but on my actual host machine, and format my drive- rebooting to find i've lost all my snapshots and the os itself ;-(


j/k" }-

I have found out how easy that is to do. So, I changed the Windows colour scheme for each different VM or snapshot so that I can see where I am. It helps...........sorta..:-\

[Longboard]

@Peter2150
-{ Quote: "I am undertaking a little experiment, and it involves changing partition sizes and imaging. I've never done this, and I bought BootitNG to use to change the partition size, but I wondered if once done, how my standard images would do restoring, and resetting the partitions.
" }-

Pete, could you elaborate on this.
I have found BING to be useful in setting partitions in VM but I dont quite get the-{ Quote: "but I wondered if once done, how my standard images would do restoring, and resetting the partitions.
" }-Part of what you were doing.

PS:Im sure you have seen this
http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=303

and from TB:
-{ Quote: "for VMWare you have to have it use standard VGA.
Once you boot, you can use BING just like it was on any other PC and create
partitions as needed.
It's only going to be able to access what the VM BIOS makes available." }-

Regards

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "@Peter2150


Pete, could you elaborate on this.
I have found BING to be useful in setting partitions in VM but I dont quite get thePart of what you were doing.

PS:Im sure you have seen this
http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=303

and from TB:


Regards" }-

What I was doing was testing something to be sure when I did it for real on my system I wasn't going to hose myself.

I imaged the drives first, and then downsized the partition on the c drive leaving the unallocated space alone. Did the testing I wanted. What the above was about was how to put the disk back no matter what I did to them. It was doing this that I discovered I could leave myself in a situation that IFW could handle, at least not without using Imageall, I already discounted that. With ShadowProtect if I just tried restoring the original image it would fail because the partition wasn't big enough, but I could first delete the volume, and then tell it to recreate an exact partition, and then bingo, my disk was back like it started.

Irony in all this was I first picked up BootitNG after testing it on one machine. Didn't test it on both, and the other machine it wouldn't work. No recovery medium other than Winpe or BartPe has worked, so I picked up Acronis Disk Director and that worked fine.

Pete

[wilbertnl]

And then there is also the free Innotek VirtualBox (http://www.virtualbox.org/) (11 MB download).
It comes with snapshot features and USB support.
It might compete well with MS Virtual PC and Parallels.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "And then there is also the free Innotek VirtualBox (http://www.virtualbox.org/) (11 MB download).
It comes with snapshot features and USB support.
It might compete well with MS Virtual PC and Parallels." }-

I liked the screenie, of Vista run on a vm box, running....... Wilbert, are you going to give it a whirl?

[wilbertnl]

-{ Quote: "Wilbert, are you going to give it a whirl?" }-
I did an XP installation in VirtualBox and overall I'm very pleased with the experience.
VirtualBox has some bugs, though, I had one BSOD (inside the VM) when rebooting after the MS hotfix updates, and when I close VB it sometimes shows an error.

But the VM itself is very responsive, better than MS Virtual PC and Parallels. It allocates all the configured resources at once.
Also accessing shared folders is fast like regular disk access, but setting up shared folders requires awkward command line input.
(you can also use network shares, of course)

I also took a snapshot after I finished the installation and wiped the virtual disk. The virtual disk rendered unbootable, after discarding the 'current state' snapshot, Windows XP Welcome Screen was smiling again at me. Snapshots work!
Multiple snapshots are supported, but it's not possible to switch back and forth.
When you delete older snapshots, their status get merged into the newer snapshots.

VirtualBox offers the feature that is similar to the undo disk of MS Virtual PC, I didn't find the differencing disk or linked cloning disk feature yet.

Compared to the free available VM's by VMware, Microsoft and the paid Parallels, I think that Innotek offers the most features and excellent user experience, even with the few bugs.

Anyone tried Xen Express (http://www.xensource.com/products/xen_express/index.html) yet? ;D

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "I did an XP installation in VirtualBox and overall I'm very pleased with the experience.
VirtualBox has some bugs, though, I had one BSOD when rebooting after the MS hotfix updates, and when I close VB it sometimes shows an error.

But the VM itself is very responsive, better than MS Virtual PC and Parallels. It allocates all the configured resources at once.
Also accessing shared folders is fast like regular disk access, but setting up shared folders requires awkward command line input.
(you can also use network shares, of course)

I also took a snapshot after I finished the installation and wiped the virtual disk. The virtual disk rendered unbootable, after discarding the 'current state' snapshot, Windows XP Welcome Screen was smiling again at me. Snapshots work!
Multiple snapshots are supported, but it's not possible to switch back and forth.
When you delete older snapshots, their status get merged into the newer snapshots.

VirtualBox offers the feature that is similar to the undo disk of MS Virtual PC, I didn't find the differencing disk or linked cloning disk feature yet.

Compared to the free available VM's by VMware, Microsoft and the paid Parallels, I think that Innotek offers the most features and excellent user experience, even with the few bugs.

Anyone tried Xen Express (http://www.xensource.com/products/xen_express/index.html) yet? ;D" }-

It sounds cool, and a good way for an intro into this fascinating area. I started thinking it was going to be a play thing, and the Microsoft 2007 beta was a bit disappointing in that I couldn't get the networking working. Once I tried the VMware workstation, things moved from play to this could be a serious tool. With the purchase of workstation, I've sort of stopped playing.

Man this really a cool field. Thanks for the info Wilbert.

Pete

[wilbertnl]

I think that I'm still playing and trying to get a map of all the features in the free available releases that I know of.
Actually, there are way more virtualization solutions than I know.

But I don't think I would have to switch snapshots (on the host) anymore, I would simply boot into a VM and start evaluating. I value snapshots and differencing disks in VM's the most, together with a responsive user experience. Although USB support is nice, I think I can live without that.

I'm thinking of web designers who need to test their code in all available browsers, it's easy to maintain a couple VM's with conflicting browser setups. And testing would be faster than booting into several snapshots in FD-ISR.

Would the combination of imaging software and VM software be a reasonable replacement of snapshot software?
I tend to think so.

[Peter2150]

-{ Quote: "I think that I'm still playing and trying to get a map of all the features in the free available releases that I know of.
Actually, there are way more virtualization solutions than I know.

But I don't think I would have to switch snapshots (on the host) anymore, I would simply boot into a VM and start evaluating. I value snapshots and differencing disks in VM's the most, together with a responsive user experience. Although USB support is nice, I think I can live without that.

I'm thinking of web designers who need to test their code in all available browsers, it's easy to maintain a couple VM's with conflicting browser setups. And testing would be faster than booting into several snapshots in FD-ISR.

Would the combination of imaging software and VM software be a reasonable replacement of snapshot software?
I tend to think so." }-

I'd say Yes but. For me FDISR is an essential part of the imaging strategy. I've stopped verifying images, as that is very time consuming. The restore is the verify. If it fails, I don't care, just go to an earlier image. This is where FDISR is king. Older image, and I can get current with an FDISR archive.

For sure though the VM machines offer the ability to test certain things that snapshots can't do.