Current View of Avira?

[JerryM]

I realize that there have been discussions of Avira since the last AV Comparatives test.
I am considering trying it on my laptop which now has F-Secure. I am not thinking of dumping F-Secure, but this is an opportunity to check out Avira.

I would appreciate comments by anyone who is using or has recently used the current build of Avira.

I have had the impression that updates of signatures has been a problem, maybe due to the download sites. Is this the case in your experience?

Have you found conflicts with other anti-malware applications? I am currently running real time the following,
Ewido, LooknStop, Win Patrol, SuperAntiSpyware, Snoopfree, UnHackMe, Spyware Guard, and Spyware Blaster.
I also have on demand, a-squared free and Zero Spyware.

I do not want the suite, but only the AV

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jerry

[ccsito]

Other users may have a more comprehensive opinion of Antivir, but here is my two cent's worth.

The program runs fine on my PC with the following programs that you see on my signature line. I have encountered signature update delays due to server problems, but these have been sporadic. The only odd observation that I have found with using the program was the following:

The AV program would come up with a message alert about a trojan (Vundo) as the SuperAntiSpyware program was scanning a particular folder on my PC earlier this year. This may indicate a conflict when both programs were running and malware was actually present on the PC. The tech support person recommended to close the antivirus program before starting the antispyware scan.

Other than that, I haven't had any issues with the program.

[lodore]

hi jerry as you are aware I have used the current build. it is a great light av that has fast ondemand scans and real time scanning. its best to try it yourself thou and i would like to know if you laptop goes alot faster with antivir installed instead of f-secure because im planing on doing it soon and since your gonna test it I hope you dont mind posting feedback about how much lighter it is compared to f-secure. and as far as i know there isnt any conflict with the above software.


I have only tryed the premium payed version and looking at the reports today it has only failed one or two updates and had 20 successful updates so it does seem good.
hope this helps



lodore

[pilotart]

The Update servers (eight of them for the Classic free) should be back to normal by next week.

Been enjoying excellent service for nine months (after nine years of NAV McAff.etc..

Big warning is to make sure you download from AVIRA Server, NOT a MIRROR!

On The AVIRA Download page the Mirrors are above "Download from AVIRA" and there are different downloads for WinXP/2k and Win98/ME.

Best to remove previous AV and wait until install reboot for 'Online Update'.

[Drew99GT]

The only time I've ever had an update problem was today and yesterday, but that's because the new version 6.36 is big and the free servers are overloaded. Other than that, one false positive, which was quickly looked at by Avira, and it's been the best antivirus I've had. Thank god I don't shell out 40 smackers a year for AV when you can get free software that's as good or maybe even better! Avira support, even with the free version, is awesome!

[trjam]

I like several, I love this one. Fast, accurate and reliable. Need I say more.

[huntnyc]

I am running the beta also and really like it. Vary smooth on my laptop so far and very light. And, the beta forum is very good also for support. Looking forward to the release.

Gary

[lodore]

-{ Quote: "I like several, I love this one. Fast, accurate and reliable. Need I say more." }-


trjam you forgot cheap:)

uk price is about £13

[JerryM]

I have not noticed that there is a trial download of the Premium version. Am I missing it?

I had not considered the beta.
Thanks,
Jerry

[Graystoke]

I've been using AntiVir Premium for a couple of weeks now, and I'm happy with it. I can't speak for the free version, but I haven't had any problems with updates. I don't check the Reports that often, but I haven't seen an update failure notice yet. It runs very light, full system scans are fast, daily updates, no false positive occurrences so far with heuristics set at high.

Oh yeah, I really like the little umbrella icon. ;) ;D

[JerryM]

-{ Quote: "I've been using AntiVir Premium for a couple of weeks now, and I'm happy with it. I can't speak for the free version, but I haven't had any problems with updates. I don't check the Reports that often, but I haven't seen an update failure notice yet. It runs very light, full system scans are fast, daily updates, no false positive occurrences so far with heuristics set at high.

Oh yeah, I really like the little umbrella icon. ;) ;D" }-

HI Graystoke,
Thanks.
Are you using a trial version of the Premium?

Jerry

[lodore]

btw jerry the normal 30 day trial doesnt have updates but if you register as beta tester you can use the beta test code for 30 days on the normal version to try it out. i dont know if this is allowed or not.
the umbrella icon is my favorite av icon


trust the umbrella:)

[Graystoke]

-{ Quote: "HI Graystoke,
Thanks.
Are you using a trial version of the Premium?

Jerry" }-


Hi JerryM.

No, I purchased a license. I did run the trial version, but it didn't include updates, so I only ran it for about 3 days. But since I liked everything about it except for that, I decided to go ahead and purchase it. Turns out it was a good decision. Shortly after purchasing, the new AV-Comparatives came out, and AntiVir scored very well. :)

[JerryM]

Lodore,
Thanks. I just learned that the demo version does not update. A bummer.
I would expect the free version to update, however.

I'll see if I can find the beta.

Regards,
Jerry

[JerryM]

-{ Quote: "Hi JerryM.

No, I purchased a license. I did run the trial version, but it didn't include updates, so I only ran it for about 3 days. But since I liked everything about it except for that, I decided to go ahead and purchase it. Turns out it was a good decision. Shortly after purchasing, the new AV-Comparatives came out, and AntiVir scored very well. :)" }-

HI Graystoke,

Thanks for the reply. I installed it but saw that the demo does not update. I may try to find the beta, or go for the free for a trial.

Regards,
Jerry

[lodore]

http://betatest.avira.com/beta/mainpage.php?action=register&lang=en

here is the beta test link

[JerryM]

Thanks, Lodore.
I notice that the beta is a suite. I don't want to go for that. I wonder if I could just install the AV?

Jerry

[lodore]

the idea is jerry is to sign up for the beta suite then just use the key on the normal version so you get the updates.

[JerryM]

OK, and thanks again.
Jerry

[lodore]

the license file is called license.zip

[the Tester]

My view of Avira-
I use the scanner in the free version as a backup.

I have 10 months left on my Vba32 license and I'll look at the Premium version then as a possible alternative.
It's the same $ and Avira runs lighter.I like to have a mail scanner so the Premium version will be of interest to me.

[trjam]

there a few things yet to be added. Antispam is current, but I think they have a few other surprises and are holding back telling us. This guys do listen. They know that having a light application that can do a lot is what people want. I have been extremely impressed with how they have listened to feedback from the testers. From what I have seen, they are doing it right. Time will tell though.

[JerryM]

I got the link for a 30 day trial license.
http://www.avira.com/en/products/test_licence.html

However, I could not open the key. It is an HBEDV.KEY, and would not open. I have no idea what to open it with. I think I will just stay with the free version for a trial. I hope if I buy it the license key will be easier to open.

Jerry

[WSFuser]

-{ Quote: "Thanks, Lodore.
I notice that the beta is a suite. I don't want to go for that. I wonder if I could just install the AV?

Jerry" }-
during antivir setup u can select which components to install.

im currently using the beta but i chose not to install the firewall, mail scanner, or antispam.
-{ Quote: "I got the link for a 30 day trial license.
http://www.avira.com/en/products/test_licence.html

However, I could not open the key. It is an HBEDV.KEY, and would not open. I have no idea what to open it with. I think I will just stay with the free version for a trial. I hope if I buy it the license key will be easier to open.

Jerry" }-
you dont open it. u just point antivir to the key and it will recognize it.

----------------

as for the program itself, i like it very much. its pretty light on resources, scans are uberfast, and of course, good detection rates. i had one false positive but it was fixed shortly after submission.

[JerryM]

WSFuser,
[you dont open it. u just point antivir to the key and it will recognize it.]

How do I do that?
Thanks,
Jerry

[huntnyc]

Somewhere as you install, you will be given a chance to browse to the license key. Make sure you expand the zip first, at least that is what I did.

Gary

[WSFuser]

im not sure. when i installed teh beta, it prompted me for the key so i just browsed to the folder with the key, selected it, and clicked ok. i think the installer for the current premium version does teh same.

also, i dont know if u can upgrade from classic to premium.

[kdm31091]

-{ Quote: "im not sure. when i installed teh beta, it prompted me for the key so i just browsed to the folder with the key, selected it, and clicked ok. i think the installer for the current premium version does teh same.

also, i dont know if u can upgrade from classic to premium." }-

As far as I know you cant, you need to uninstall classic and install premium.

Yes Premium works the same, you just point it to the key.

[JerryM]

I appreciate all the help, but everything I have done is to no avail. It is not a zip file, and browsing has only resulted in a reply that it is not a valid file or license, I don't remember which. I had instructions from the Avira forum, but nothing has done the job.

I do not doubt it is something I have done wrong in the total process, but after about 3 hours my patience has been exhausted, and now F-Secure is back to stay, at least for awhile.

Best,
Jerry

[trjam]

Jerry, what is it you want to test. If its the beta with firewall and av, let me know. But I really dont think keys are interchangible. But what exactly do you want, lodore and I might be able to help.

[trjam]

And I know how frustrating things like this can be, so lets just slow down and find out how we can help. You really should join the beta, you would like it.

[JerryM]

-{ Quote: "And I know how frustrating things like this can be, so lets just slow down and find out how we can help. You really should join the beta, you would like it." }-

Thanks, I was wanting to just test the AV. While I have no doubt that the suite is very good, I have my other applications set up, and do not want to change them.

I got the license key off the site for the download of the Workstation, which is what the program that I downloaded was.

Regards,
Jerry

[huntnyc]

Jerry, did you extract the license.zip into its own folder and then browse to that folder and selct the key file and hit open and it should work. it did for me and I am loving this product so far even at this stage of its developement. Let us know. Your frustration hopefully will pay off for much good.

Gary

[JerryM]

-{ Quote: "Jerry, did you extract the license.zip into its own folder and then browse to that folder and selct the key file and hit open and it should work. it did for me and I am loving this product so far even at this stage of its developement. Let us know. Your frustration hopefully will pay off for much good.

Gary" }-

It isn't a zip file. I really do not know what kind of file it is. It is a HBEDV.KEY. Nothing that I tried would open it, and the program did not recognize it. Here is a discussion on the Avira forum.
http://forum.antivir-pe.de/thread.php?postid=103262#post103262

I started over and downloaded another copy of the workstation and the key that is available on the same page as the download.
I don't want to go through it today, but may try again in a day or so.
I am not displeased with F-Secure, but just wanted to try Avira since there are so many good reports.

Thanks for the help.
Jerry

[huntnyc]

Again, I am using the beta and there is a license.zip file that contains key file inside along with the executable file containing program. So far no major problems with beta here.

Gary

[JerryM]

OK, I went through the entire process, including downloading of the workstation, and the key.
This time all went smoothly. Now I can evaluate for 30 days.

I did sign up for the beta test, but when I went there the message was that there was no beta available. Not sure what that is about.

Thanks for the help, and I'll probably need more. I am running a scan so I will see how long it takes compared to F-Secure.

What is the workstation vs the premium?

Best,
Jerry

[WSFuser]

teh difference is the workstation version can be remotely administered.

[JerryM]

-{ Quote: "teh difference is the workstation version can be remotely administered." }-
Thanks. I may try the beta a little later, but can't find how to download it. I am registered as a beta tester.

Not sure I am qualified, but I'll see how things go. If they are going well I might give it a try.

Best,
Jerry

[JerryM]

The first scan took 20:25.
No detections, but 26 warnings. What are the warnings about?

Thanks,
Jerry

[ggf31416]

-{ Quote: "The first scan took 20:25.
No detections, but 26 warnings. What are the warnings about?

Thanks,
Jerry" }-

Files in use (Don't worry, anyway they are scanned by the guard), password protected archives, etc

[JerryM]

-{ Quote: "Files in use (Don't worry, anyway they are scanned by the guard), password protected archives, etc" }-

Thanks for the info.
Best,
Jerry

[WSFuser]

-{ Quote: "Thanks. I may try the beta a little later, but can't find how to download it. I am registered as a beta tester.

Not sure I am qualified, but I'll see how things go. If they are going well I might give it a try.

Best,
Jerry" }-
once u have ur username/password, login at the beta section (http://betatest.avira.com/beta/index.php?lang=en) then click on the Downloads link. u should see downloads relevant to the betas u signed up for.

i signed up for Avira AntiVir Personal Edition Premium with integrated Firewall and theres three files i can download.

[Wai_Wai]

Avira is light and the detection is good. The scanning speed is fast.
However it has many false positives, in contrast to McAfee and Norton which maintain very few false positives.

Reference: AV-test, AV-comparative

[JerryM]

So far, all is going well. I have run two scans without ant FP. The scans took about 20 minutes, which is faster than NOD by about 12 minutes, and much faster than the 45-50 minutes of F-Secure.

In looking at startup entries with Win Patrol, and Task Manager, I am having trouble determining how Avira is listed since it does not show it as some other applications do.

So far, so good.

Thanks for all the help, and responses.
Best,
Jerry

[Graystoke]

Since AntiVir beta was mentioned her earlier, I guess this is ok. I just installed AntiVir antivirus/firewall beta a few minutes ago. The install went smoothly. I'm not a big fan of suites, but this one is not bad. The antivirus and firewall components are easy to get to. Configuration is pretty straight forward. It seems to run as light as my AntiVir Premium. So far I'm happy with it.

[JerryM]

Hi Graystoke,

As you get time let us know how you like it. I always hate to think of training a new firewall.
Avira AV is running well with Kerio 2.1.5. I must admit that everything I have tried, including NOD, F-Secure, AVG, and Avast also have no conflicts with that firewall.

Regards,
Jerry

[JerryM]

Is the price of a renewal the same as the initial cost of Avira?
Thanks,
Jerry

[Firecat]

-{ Quote: "Is the price of a renewal the same as the initial cost of Avira?
Thanks,
Jerry" }-
The last time I asked, the answer was yes.

[JerryM]

Thanks, Firecat.
Best,
Jerry

[Graystoke]

-{ Quote: "The last time I asked, the answer was yes." }-


That's around $26 USD for a yearly renewal. That's not bad when compared to other AV renewal prices.

[JerryM]

-{ Quote: "That's around $26 USD for a yearly renewal. That's not bad when compared to other AV renewal prices." }-

Much less expensive than KAV and less than NOD. Except for F-Prot I am not aware of a pretty good paid AV that is priced so well for us.

Thanks,
Jerry

[lodore]

hi i have only just read most of the 4 page thread and the i cant belive the scan time is faster than nod32. nod32 is ment to be 1.3gb per minute and if antivir scan is 20minutes and nod32 is 32minutes then thats quite a bit faster.

[JerryM]

-{ Quote: "hi i have only just read most of the 4 page thread and the i cant belive the scan time is faster than nod32. nod32 is ment to be 1.3gb per minute and if antivir scan averages 20minutes and nod32 is 32minutes then thats quite a bit faster." }-

Hi Lodore,
It is faster than NOD. However, when it scans it takes anywhere from 25%-100% CPU. It averages about 70. I'll check this another time or two, and see what happens.

Jerry

[theflamingbush]

so whats the difference between the classic and the premium?

I have Zone Alarm Pro running , so i dont need a fire wall.

does it protect email with the classic?....because if ive already got other protection like SSM, sandboxie, and zone alarm, why would i get the premium instead of the classic?

[WSFuser]

heres what premium offers:
-{ Quote: "
* Integrated detection of ad/spyware
* Extra protection through email scanner (POP3)
* Exclusive download server for faster updates
* User-defined update intervals
* Scan function for selected directories
" }-

[JerryM]

-{ Quote: "heres what premium offers:" }-

Does the Premium version scan outgoing emai, including POP3l?

Thanks,
Jerry

[theflamingbush]

hmmmmm im using thunderbird and i have to say i like the email protection, so maybe a multilayer approach with spyware terminator and avg will be sufficient in conjunction with SSM, rather than swapping to avira.

[WSFuser]

antivir's emailguard only scans incoming plain text emails.

[Graystoke]

-{ Quote: "Hi Graystoke,

As you get time let us know how you like it. I always hate to think of training a new firewall.

Regards,
Jerry" }-


I'll do that. So far, so good. :)

[trjam]

As I have said, I can wait for the final product. It will be great.

[JerryM]

-{ Quote: "antivir's emailguard only scans incoming plain text emails." }-
Thanks,
Jerry

[smustaca]

-{ Quote: "antivir's emailguard only scans incoming plain text emails." }-
Yes, it scans only incoming. The outgoing mails are scanned automatically by Guard.

But, mailguard couldn't care less what kind of body the email has.
However, it is interesting what made you think this. Could you give me some details ? :)
Thanks

[farmerlee]

I've used antivir on and off for the past few years, from my experience using it my only grumble against it had to do with its false positives. It always seemed to bring up a lot more than other programs which i why i moved away from it and went to avg. However I haven't used it in a while and lately it sounds as if its made big improvements and has become a great product.

[WSFuser]

-{ Quote: "Yes, it scans only incoming. The outgoing mails are scanned automatically by Guard.

But, mailguard couldn't care less what kind of body the email has.
However, it is interesting what made you think this. Could you give me some details ? :)
Thanks" }-
i just read it at the antivir forums. perhaps the poster meant something else.
-{ Quote: "Hello,

Gmail uses POP3S, which encrypts your Emails. MailGuard only scans plain text POP3 Emails. So that's why this happens. Anyway, your Emails will be scanned by Guard. The advantage of using MailGuard too is that Emails would get scanned before reaching the Email client.

Best regards,
Radu Gheorghe" }-

[trjam]

-{ Quote: "I've used antivir on and off for the past few years, from my experience using it my only grumble against it had to do with its false positives. It always seemed to bring up a lot more than other programs which i why i moved away from it and went to avg. However I haven't used it in a while and lately it sounds as if its made big improvements and has become a great product." }-

They have and when their suite is released I think the fruit of their hard work will shine through.

[JerryM]

I must say that in the short time I have used Avira, it has shown no FPs. So far I really like it, maybe as well as KAV6, which I have on my desktop.
Best,
Jerry

[lodore]

cool. what level is the heristics set on?

[Littlemutt]

@Lodore
I'm currently using the Antivir suite and have the settings for heuristics set to high across the board and so far have found no FP's. But, I'm probably not the best candidate for testing as I am a pretty 'safe-surfer', and mostly a forum junkie...

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9a1) Gecko/20060922 Minefield/3.0a1, Firefox ID:2006092203 [cairo]

[JerryM]

-{ Quote: "cool. what level is the heristics set on?" }-

I have left everything at default. However, I just now checked and found that the W 32 Heuristics was not checked. I checked it and it defaulted to medium where I left it.

Heuristics seems to be only on the mail guard.

Now we'll see.

Best,
Jerry

[Littlemutt]

-{ Quote: "I have left everything at default. However, I just now checked and found that the W 32 Heuristics was not checked. I checked it and it defaulted to medium where I left it.

Heuristics seems to be only on the mail guard.

Now we'll see.

Best,
Jerry" }-

If you go into 'Expert Mode' and under Guard->Configuration , expand 'scan' and there is heuristics there for any scanning you may have set up or do manually.

[lodore]

im a safe surfer also so im not really good for that sort of test eiether.

[JerryM]

-{ Quote: "If you go into 'Expert Mode' and under Guard->Configuration , expand 'scan' and there is heuristics there for any scanning you may have set up or do manually." }-

Thanks, Littlemutt. I checked all of them, and it will be interesting to see if I get a lot of FP. I suspect a few will show up.

Best,
Jerry

[trjam]

Jerry, click on each plus sign and it will drop down the next box.

[trjam]

-{ Quote: "Thanks, Littlemutt. I checked all of them, and it will be interesting to see if I get a lot of FP. I suspect a few will show up.

Best,
Jerry" }-


It has been awhile seen I have seen one.

[JerryM]

-{ Quote: "Jerry, click on each plus sign and it will drop down the next box." }-

Done, Thanks. I may be better at operating a wheel barrow than this stuff.
Jerry

[Graystoke]

Anyone here running the AntiVir antivirus/firewall beta? I was running it until a couple of days ago, when I started having problems with the mailguard. With the mail guard activated, I couldn't receive e-mail. When it was deactivated, no problems. Just wondering if anyone else ran into this problem. I could ask at the AntiVir beta forum, but felt I already asked too many questions there, and I didn't want to make a pest of myself.

[Littlemutt]

-{ Quote: "Anyone here running the AntiVir antivirus/firewall beta? I was running it until a couple of days ago, when I started having problems with the mailguard. With the mail guard activated, I couldn't receive e-mail. When it was deactivated, no problems. Just wondering if anyone else ran into this problem. I could ask at the AntiVir beta forum, but felt I already asked too many questions there, and I didn't want to make a pest of myself." }-

I've been using it now for about 3 or 4 days, and so far I've not had any issues, works real well. The only thing I've seen is from time to time when opening the Control Center I get an error kicked that I posted about in the Beta forum.

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9a1) Gecko/20060922 Minefield/3.0a1, Firefox ID:2006092205 [cairo]

[maddawgz]

This is the first Av that's shifted me from TMIS, i wouldnt budge i hate change lol however i luv this one its light..free what more u want guess some things in ilfe are free? ;D ;D It updates fine ermmmm caught 3 trojans trying to nab me!...Pheww so i feel safe love it 10/10...

Btw anyone have the hueristics ticked on win 32 file? and on high? I've not had any probs yet and it updated after i ticked that....no false positives for a week since..do we really need that ticked or?? MD

Hope Avira dont start charging now they know there up there

[Littlemutt]

-{ Quote: "This is the first Av that's shifted me from TMIS, i wouldnt budge i hate change lol however i luv this one its light..free what more u want guess some things in ilfe are free? ;D ;D It updates fine ermmmm caught 3 trojans trying to nab me!...Pheww so i feel safe love it 10/10...

Btw anyone have the hueristics ticked on win 32 file? and on high? I've not had any probs yet and it updated after i ticked that....no false positives for a week since..do we really need that ticked or?? MD

Hope Avira dont start charging now they know there up there" }-

I've got the heuristics cranked up to 'high' on W32 options and so far nothing has bothered me at all.

I rather doubt this great combo AV+FW will be 'free'. Its only free because its still in Beta, plan on buying it later, as I am fully considering at this point.
I'm hoping ESET comes out with a public Beta of its suite before the end of Oct when this suite will most likely be released.

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9a1) Gecko/20060922 Minefield/3.0a1, Firefox ID:2006092205 [cairo]

[Unity]

With a good migration deal , like Dr Web , i would probably buy a license immediately since i've been a happy user of the free version in the past.
Well who knows , maybe in the future ? ;)

[LokiLoki]

-{ Quote: "With a good migration deal , like Dr Web , i would probably buy a license immediately since i've been a happy user of the free version in the past.
Well who knows , maybe in the future ? ;)" }-

Don't forget - renewal discount. :)
Please have renewal discount. ;)

[Graystoke]

Just an update. The problem with the blocked e-mails is gone. I unistalled AntiVir beta with the intention of waiting until the final version came out. But I really like this AntiVir beta, and wanted to keep using it. After a couple of days, I decided to reinstall it again. For some reason the problem went away. I don't know why, but I'm happy it's gone. :)

[theflamingbush]

I havent tried the suite. I am happy with my ZAPro firewall, early build!, and am dubious that avira could do better. I like the guard they have, which is EXCELLENT!, and the av scan is top notch!, so i use the classic, its also free. The downside is that there is no pop3 support for mail client. Ive managed to get around this by installing AVG as a second AV client, and turning off its resident shield, hence no conflict with the Avira online Guard. The email protection that this affords me though is a major bonus, and AVG email protection is sufficient, with the ZAPro doubling up with no conflict for attachment filter. The other bonus is that with the previous build of ZAPro which i have had for years, the rest of the combo suite is FREE! :), you could easily use another firewall as a stand alone unit, or just pop yourself behind a router with built in firewall!(prefered option IMHO!)

Basically, if you use the prog that specializes in the process you want, your going to get better protection. Problems have been that conflicts occur when you have two competing processes running. So programms that have the capacity to turn off processes you dont need are preferable. Ive been trying to get a free configuration combo sorted out, and my advise with no conflicts that ive been able to detect is this.

AVG... online email scan (pop3), secondary AV on demand scan.

Avira... Online Gaurd, and primary AV.

ZAPro... older 6.5 build, limited conflicts, newer builds might conflict.

SSM... HIPS for swinging! :)

Sandboxie.... Browser protection and (mostly)secure enviroment for online work.

The firewall, can be dropped if you are sitting behind a router with built in firewall, and in the end this might be best.

Firefox and thunderbird, sandboxed.

other scanners like ewido, spybot, spyware scanner, ad-aware, can be used as intermitant scanners just to clean things up, but ive not noticed anything they've needed to pick up so far, as the first line of defence seems to be quite good for reasonably secure surfing. The java, javascript, and activeX problem holes can be solved by sandboxing and SSM, sufficiently i think.