Alternatives to FDISR & Rollback [Archive]

Peter2150

July 21st, 2006, 12:29 AM

-{ Quote: "I bought Rollback, but it messes with my MBR.

I installed FirstDefense-ISR but it won't enable itself on my computer. The FDISR support forum came up with no solutions.

QUESTION- Are there any other programs that do approximately the same job that is done by Rollback & FDISR?" }-

HI Bellgamin

Slow down my friend. First of all don't know what you mean by Rollback messes with your MBR. So does FDISR. You just uninstalled and gave up. Besure you have nothing else that messes with your MBR, and then give it another try. Also where did you get the version you tried. If it wasn't from Raxco, get Raxco's version, and then if you have trouble contact tech support at Raxco. If you downloaded Leapfrog's version, discard it. They don't provide public support and you shouldn't be using it.

Pete

bellgamin

July 21st, 2006, 01:01 AM

@BigC - No, I don't use PG. But I DO use Systems Safety Monitor, which also hooks the kernel & does traffic cops duties on processes -- along the same lines as PG. Hmmmm, I wonder...

@Peter- I downloaded from Leapfrog. Why? Because Leapfrog evidently runs the FDISR support forum at Wilders. I may try again in a few days, with a download from Raxco BUT... I am not a big fan of fragile recovery software. Recovery software should be as close to fool-proof as possible.

As to what Rollback does to the MBR -- I have no idea. I'm just going by what I read here. I used Rollback for quite some time & was absolutely delighted with it. I used it a LOT when I was beta-testing 2 different versions of Online Armor (plain & AV+) & switched things around 3 or 4 times a day with noooo problems.

My big disaster was caused by an open source boot manager named Gag -- not by Rollback. But Rollback can't help with a major diasaster such as that, so I became convinced I needed to get an imaging program. But the imaging programs I knew of (ATI etc.) were all said to conflict with Rollback. Therefore I am now using ATI & (reluctantly) have Rollback in mothballs.

I have heard BING & Rollback might get along okay, so I am now reading the BING manual to find out if I can understand BING well enough to use it.

Compared with FDISR, Rollback was a delight. It installed easily. Ran faultlessly, & I never even once had to read the user's guide -- it was THAT simple. It did dozens & dozens & dozens of rollbacks for me with never a burp or fart in a carload. I miss that program, but I'm afraid to use it again because (as of right now) ATI is what is guarding my computer's groin area & I don't want to risk having Rollback screw up ATI, as some have said it will do.

Is there no balm in Gilead (Jer 8.22a)? Are there no good alternatives to Rollback & FDISR? (sigh)

dallen

July 21st, 2006, 01:31 AM

bellgamin,
My recommendation is the combination of Image for DOS/Windows and FDISR. However, I do not use System Safety Monitor. If you used Process Guard, I would say that your solution is simple. I would drop Process Guard in favor of the IFW/IFD & FDISR protection. The reason for this conclusion is that I personally do not believe that Process Guard is worth sacrificing FDISR or IFW/IFD. Due to the fact that I am not as familiar with System Safety Monitor, I cannot draw the same conclusion. I can, however, recommend that you consider Image For Windows / Image For DOS and First Defense ISR.

crofttk

July 21st, 2006, 02:28 AM

Right on, dallen. Although I use 3 and often 4 different image/backup/disaster recovery softwares. If I had to choose only two, it would be IFW/IFD and FD-ISR, hands down.

Peter2150

July 21st, 2006, 08:39 AM

-{ Quote: "@BigC - No, I don't use PG. But I DO use Systems Safety Monitor, which also hooks the kernel & does traffic cops duties on processes -- along the same lines as PG. Hmmmm, I wonder...

@Peter- I downloaded from Leapfrog. Why? Because Leapfrog evidently runs the FDISR support forum at Wilders. I may try again in a few days, with a download from Raxco BUT... I am not a big fan of fragile recovery software. Recovery software should be as close to fool-proof as possible.

As to what Rollback does to the MBR -- I have no idea. I'm just going by what I read here. I used Rollback for quite some time & was absolutely delighted with it. I used it a LOT when I was beta-testing 2 different versions of Online Armor (plain & AV+) & switched things around 3 or 4 times a day with noooo problems.

My big disaster was caused by an open source boot manager named Gag -- not by Rollback. But Rollback can't help with a major diasaster such as that, so I became convinced I needed to get an imaging program. But the imaging programs I knew of (ATI etc.) were all said to conflict with Rollback. Therefore I am now using ATI & (reluctantly) have Rollback in mothballs.

I have heard BING & Rollback might get along okay, so I am now reading the BING manual to find out if I can understand BING well enough to use it.

Compared with FDISR, Rollback was a delight. It installed easily. Ran faultlessly, & I never even once had to read the user's guide -- it was THAT simple. It did dozens & dozens & dozens of rollbacks for me with never a burp or fart in a carload. I miss that program, but I'm afraid to use it again because (as of right now) ATI is what is guarding my computer's groin area & I don't want to risk having Rollback screw up ATI, as some have said it will do.

Is there no balm in Gilead (Jer 8.22a)? Are there no good alternatives to Rollback & FDISR? (sigh)" }-

Hi Bellgamin

Couple of things.

First - downloading from Leapfrog was a bad idea. They don't provide support. Support is provided thru their 3 vendors. Todd really doesn't provide support on the forum. Many of us can help you, but there are times you will need technical support.

Second. If I am reading right you installed this open source boot manager Gag with Rollback installed. If that was the case, neither was the cause of disaster, but mixing them was. If you installed FDISR with Gag installed FDISR would have never been able to go active. You can't mix and match programs that need to use the MBR for direction.

I would strongly recommend you use IFW/IFD instead of Bing. I looked at it and decided it would more likely cause me to do myself grief, and I don't need it's functionality.

Pete

PS any other program with the same functionality will also need one to be mindful of the MBR

Longboard

July 21st, 2006, 09:33 AM

-{ Quote: "I have heard BING & Rollback might get along okay, so I am now reading the BING manual to find out if I can understand BING well enough to use it." }-

Bellgamin: re the above, the answer is probably not
I was in touch with Terabyte about this some time ago.
Due to the aahh "unusual" indexing system used by RBack for snapshots, most if not all imaging utilities will have problems with RBack and the data imaging they use if not conflicts within MBR.

There was a massive thread in the forums about Rback and imaging utilities and thier were many problems related to trying to image the HDS system eccentricities and MBR conflicts as I recall.
The end result was that very sadly many users "suspended" Rback on their systems.

Here: http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=127866&highlight=rollback
and
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=119215&highlight=rollback

In addition as you are aware any utility that wants the MBR will conflict with RBack. If you actually install BING to your HD it will take over the MBR and I dread to think of the possible problems.

Having said that, there is an option in IFW and Bing from floppy to do a "raw" copy/image, which literally images every byte in place and this might be ok with Rback. I suspect this would be a very high level use of the utilities and not an option to be considered lightly. This information was from Terabyte and I'm not sure they actually tested it. I certainly did not. ;)

Regards

Kenjin

July 21st, 2006, 01:36 PM

-{ Quote: "Having said that, there is an option in IFW and Bing from floppy to do a "raw" copy/image, which literally images every byte in place and this might be ok with Rback. I suspect this would be a very high level use of the utilities and not an option to be considered lightly. This information was from Terabyte and I'm not sure they actually tested it. I certainly did not. ;)
" }-
I would like to add that this is the same approach which I used in my RollBack backup test with DriveSnapshot. It should work fine if one pays attention to a couple of important things. Details can be found in the above mentioned threads. Here is a shortcut to my post in there: http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=739635&postcount=413

Heco

July 21st, 2006, 10:32 PM

-{ Quote: "

...
Is there no balm in Gilead (Jer 8.22a)? Are there no good alternatives to Rollback & FDISR? (sigh)" }-
Hi Bellgamin,:)
You might give RestoreIT(Farstone) a try.
For more detailed description, use this link:
http://www.farstone.com/home/ensite/products/restoreit.shtml
Like you, i'm a former disappointed user of Rollback... After a major BSOD, i had to remove it from my computer.
With RestoreIT, i feel safer cause it's a better and more reliable snapshot backup software that never failed to recover my system when needed, within 5 minutes (less fast than Rollback though).
Moreover, it includes a complete disk image backup module (like ATI or others) that, once your system is restored with it, gives you access to all your previous snapshots preserved in a hidden partition. You can define the size of this partition (type 77).The image can be stored wherever you want: external hard disk, Dvd...
Cheers,
Hervé

Osaban

July 21st, 2006, 11:23 PM

-{ Quote: "
QUESTION- Are there any other programs that do approximately the same job that is done by Rollback & FDISR?" }-

'Approximately' is an interesting invitation to talk about similar software. If you manage to find a good (see working well on your system) imaging program, there is perhaps more than a reason to suggest virtualization software like SHADOWUSER from STORAGECRAFT. It won't create any snapshot of your system, but a virtual volume which will behave as a lightning rod to any malware attack: You reboot into your active system and everything good or bad is gone (you can choose to save things if you wish).

It is very userfriendly and a very stable program indeed. If you want to give it a spin, http://www.storagecraft.com/products/ShadowUser/

With the current discount it is about 50$.

bellgamin

July 22nd, 2006, 05:19 AM

-{ Quote: "... a virtual volume which will behave as a lightning rod to any malware attack" }-My recent disaster wasn't caused by malware. It was caused by a loose nut on my keyboard (namely me). No significant malware has ever penetrated my computer's defenses.

-{ Quote: "You reboot into your active system and everything good or bad is gone" }- Sounds interesting. But you have to make up your mind rather early that stuff is nasty/unwanted, wot? What if I don't make up my mind for, say, 3 days? Would Shadowuser still do the job of getting my computer back to pre-nasty status, as it was 3 days prior?

-{ Quote: "With the current discount it is about 50$." }-

:blink:<== bellgamin thinking about a $50 price tag

:)Just kidding, Osaban. Thanks for the post. I will test Shadowuser out one of these days.

ErikAlbert

July 22nd, 2006, 06:09 AM

Bellgamin,
DeepFreeze is also a possible, just read the website.
http://www.faronics.com/html/deepfreeze.asp
I never used it myself, because FDISR has more possibilities, than just immediate system recovery.
DeepFreeze seems to be a reliable software according my readings in forums.

Acadia

July 22nd, 2006, 06:49 AM

bellgamin, you are looking for alternatives. The only other "instant" recovery programs that I can think off the top of my head are GoBack and, as Heco mentioned, RestoreIt. Neither one of those programs, however, will allow you to create other "work environments" just like creating different partitions, as Rollback and FirstDefense allow you to do. Good luck.

Acadia

Peter2150

July 22nd, 2006, 07:29 AM

Bellgamin

All of the alternatives have some downsides. I would try FDISR again, but get the Raxco version, and be sure you have no boot managers, partition managers etc installed. Then if you have a problem, Raxco will help you.

Pete

Heco

July 22nd, 2006, 07:42 AM

... if it happened that you make up your mind purchasing RestoreIt after giving it a try, just enter the following 30% discount code:

FS30

into the promotional code box of the FarStone shopping cart.
Thus you will pay 27$99 instead of 39$99...:D
Ssssshhhh...LOL
Hervé

ErikAlbert

July 22nd, 2006, 08:06 AM

-{ Quote: "bellgamin, you are looking for alternatives. The only other "instant" recovery programs that I can think off the top of my head are GoBack and, as Heco mentioned, RestoreIt. Neither one of those programs, however, will allow you to create other "work environments" just like creating different partitions, as Rollback and FirstDefense allow you to do. Good luck.

Acadia" }-
Yes FDISR offers alot more :
1. Immediate System Recovery inside or outside Windows.
2. Different work environments, upto 10 bootable and unlimited in archived format, which is even better than partitioning.
3. Almost as good as an image backup software (internal/external harddisk, DVD, CD)
4. Refreshing of snapshots, the fastest updating/archiving method ever seen.
5. Full protection of snapshots (freezing).
All that for a miserable $70.

If you don't want all that, my very last recommendation is Windows System Restore. ::)

Osaban

July 22nd, 2006, 09:32 AM

Osaban

July 22nd, 2006, 09:58 AM

Moreover, if you're asking for alternatives, you can try this application, I'm really not trying to get you to buy anything, it is your choice but consider that very few people have complained hard about ShadowUser.

crofttk

July 22nd, 2006, 10:45 AM

-{ Quote: "No, you don't have to make up your mind about what is nasty or not, a layered defense will tell you if something is funny. ..." }-I can't be certain what bellgamin was driving at but I can guess -- plus I'd like to know for myself -- How much hard disk space will Shadowuser consume, i.e., how frequently can I take "snapshots" (or equivalent in SU) and how long before I run out of storage space on a given hard drive size with a given amount in use ?

ErikAlbert

July 22nd, 2006, 11:36 AM

-{ Quote: "I still find it incredible that a guy like ErikAlbert who has been a fanboy of SU for a looooong time(without ever trying it) is now pushing for Deep Freeze!" }-
Bellgamin is asking for alternatives to FDISR & Rollback.
You mentioned ShadowUser already, so I had to mention something else : DeepFreeze. :)

I also wrote what FDISR is capable of in this thread. Can you do the same thing with ShadowUser ?
I don't deal with software names, I deal with software possibilities.
Immediate system recovery is a software possibility or function whatever you call it in English. ShadowUser is a software name.
But at Wilders, they always use software names, so I used SU, because I didn't know about the rest of the softwares. I was not a fan of SU, I was a fan of immediate system recovery.

Heco

July 22nd, 2006, 12:48 PM

-{ Quote: "No, you don't have to make up your mind about what is nasty or not, a layered defense will tell you if something is funny. ShadowUser like FD-ISR will be able to undo the whole session good or bad as it might be. ShadowUser will get you back to your original state no matter what.

I still find it incredible that a guy like ErikAlbert who has been a fanboy of SU for a looooong time(without ever trying it) is now pushing for Deep Freeze!" }-
Hi Osaban:)
Please explain to me what you would do in the following scenario which IMHO complies more to what Bellgamin and I encountered:
Ok... you have SU installed and set to shadow mode... Microsoft releases a critical update or you upgrade one of your softwares. You will keep SU in shadow mode at every reboot (with saved data enabled) for 2 days to see if everything is ok after installing either one or the other, right? Then you will allow the transfer of the data from shadow mode to your disk, cause you won't stay in shadow mode all the time, i assume. Now if one week after, you notice that an important software does not work any more or crashes windows to a point of no return and you can point out the update or the upgrade as the culprit, what will you do with SU?
With FDISR or RestoreIT you can roll back before the system starts, to a previous snapshot taken before the changes were done. Not with SU!
You may reply that you back up your system with ATI or others regularly. But the restoration will take at least 30 min (not to mention the time taken to do a mandatory full backup ((with, secondarily, "automatic updates" in windows set to "off")), before every change). With FDISR or RestoreIT, taking the snapshot in no time and restoration within just 5 min.
IMHO Su is just another EFFICIENT emergency layer of defense, not a long-term recovery software.
Thank you for your expected reply.
Cheers,
Hervé

mrhero

July 22nd, 2006, 03:20 PM

These days also I am searching an alternative to Rollback. Because it made big problems at my system.
I search for Norton Goback trial, bu i can't find any download link. If you know one please give me, if not i am going to use a pirated version as trial (if I like i will buy;D ).

starfish_001

July 22nd, 2006, 06:43 PM

Peter2150

July 22nd, 2006, 07:31 PM

-{ Quote: "Do you have a NTFS files system? I thought from your other posts that you run windows ME" }-

That would sure explain FDISR not running.

TonyW

July 22nd, 2006, 07:51 PM

-{ Quote: "bellgamin, you are looking for alternatives. The only other "instant" recovery programs that I can think off the top of my head are GoBack and, as Heco mentioned, RestoreIt. Neither one of those programs, however, will allow you to create other "work environments" just like creating different partitions, as Rollback and FirstDefense allow you to do." }-There's another program I've recently come across, which Tiscali UK are promoting, but I have found the product's own web page. It's Phoenix Recover Pro, and can be found at http://www.phoenix.com/en/Products/Trusted+Applications/Recover+Pro+6/default.htm

I dunno if anyone has looked at this, and if it matches the capabilities of programs like RestoreIt or RollBack.

pvsurfer

July 22nd, 2006, 07:59 PM

-{ Quote: "There's another program I've recently come across, which Tiscali UK are promoting, but I have found the product's own web page. It's Phoenix Recover Pro, and can be found at http://www.phoenix.com/en/Products/Trusted+Applications/Recover+Pro+6/default.htm

I dunno if anyone has looked at this, and if it matches the capabilities of programs like RestoreIt or RollBack." }-
PRP creates but one snapshot. Although that snapshot can be updated whenever you like, that is nevertheless a big restriction compared to the likes of GB, RB, FDISR and RestoreIT.

That said, I'm told it is the software being used by Dell to create their recovery partitions.

Hth, pv

Osaban

July 22nd, 2006, 08:00 PM

-{ Quote: "I can't be certain what bellgamin was driving at but I can guess -- plus I'd like to know for myself -- How much hard disk space will Shadowuser consume, i.e., how frequently can I take "snapshots" (or equivalent in SU) and how long before I run out of storage space on a given hard drive size with a given amount in use ?" }-

Very little hard disk indeed. Consider the average time I spend with my computer is about 2-3 hours and there's usually a hard disk space usage of about 200 to 300 MB (that could also reach 1GB depending on your activities) which is deleted automatically upon rebooting your computer.

You could keep the virtual volume from being deleted for a long time (depending on the size of your HD, say an 80 GB HD would probably last 3 to 4 months with normal use) but not indefinetly. One has to reboot to your active drive sooner or later, actually the beauty of SU is that once you are in virtual mode, for security reasons is better to reboot frequently so that even trojans wouldn't have the time to phone home (that's why a layered defense is nevertheless necessary).

With SU you don't take snapshots, that is the fundamental difference with FD-ISR, it is not a recovery tool, but with an imaging program one can really have a complete system.

I'm not trying to say that SU is better than FD-ISR there are similarities but they are not really doing the same thing.

Osaban

July 22nd, 2006, 08:13 PM

-{ Quote: "Bellgamin is asking for alternatives to FDISR & Rollback.
You mentioned ShadowUser already, so I had to mention something else : DeepFreeze. :)

" }-

DeepFreeze is used a lot as I believe it was one the first programs to use the concept of creating a virtual volume. Compared to SU there are many things it can't do (and you know that very well) namely saving files directely while in virtual mode and updating security applications in real time.

But what has made this program a security hazard is the fact that it can be hacked and apparently the hacking instructions are available on the internet.
I don't know if Faraonics has done something about it.

Osaban

July 22nd, 2006, 08:45 PM

-{ Quote: "Hi Osaban:)
Please explain to me what you would do in the following scenario which IMHO complies more to what Bellgamin and I encountered:
Ok... you have SU installed and set to shadow mode... Microsoft releases a critical update or you upgrade one of your softwares. You will keep SU in shadow mode at every reboot (with saved data enabled) for 2 days to see if everything is ok after installing either one or the other, right? Then you will allow the transfer of the data from shadow mode to your disk, cause you won't stay in shadow mode all the time, i assume. Now if one week after, you notice that an important software does not work any more or crashes windows to a point of no return and you can point out the update or the upgrade as the culprit, what will you do with SU?
With FDISR or RestoreIT you can roll back before the system starts, to a previous snapshot taken before the changes were done. Not with SU!
You may reply that you back up your system with ATI or others regularly. But the restoration will take at least 30 min (not to mention the time taken to do a mandatory full backup ((with, secondarily, "automatic updates" in windows set to "off")), before every change). With FDISR or RestoreIT, taking the snapshot in no time and restoration within just 5 min.
IMHO Su is just another EFFICIENT emergency layer of defense, not a long-term recovery software.
Thank you for your expected reply.
Cheers,
Hervé" }-

When Bellgamin asked for a program approximately doing the same job as FD-ISR and Rollback Rx, I obviously thought of Shadowuser.

I'm not trying to compare SU and FD-ISR because they do similar things in different ways. Yes FD-ISR is a recovery tool and you can rollback things in time, SU IS NOT a recovery tool. Main Advantage of FD-ISR: Testing programs simultaneously in different snapshots. Main disadvantage: HD space usage and high learning curve. SU big plus: Surfing the Internet with confidence with quick reboots (1.5 minutes). SU big disdvantage: Sometimes trying out programs like HIPS is problematic.

One can choose either way according to their activities, it would be foolish IMO to have them both installed.

About your disaster scenario I agree FD would probably be the best application to have, but let me emphasize once again I do have SU for security reasons not for testing programs. And I also use, believe it or not, the 'system restore' supplied by Windows: It has never failed particularly with updates.

Heco

July 22nd, 2006, 08:48 PM

Thank you Osaban for your clear reply.
Cheers,
Hervé

aigle

July 23rd, 2006, 12:23 AM

-{ Quote: "That would sure explain FDISR not running." }-

I think he is using XP now.

Peter2150

July 23rd, 2006, 12:25 AM

-{ Quote: "I think he is using XP now." }-

Yes, but that doesn't mean he converted his file system to NTFS.

aigle

July 23rd, 2006, 12:26 AM

-{ Quote: "
With RestoreIT, i feel safer cause it's a better and more reliable snapshot backup software that never failed to recover my system when needed, within 5 minutes (less fast than Rollback though).
" }-

How much time it takes to make an image/ snapshot of system?

aigle

July 23rd, 2006, 12:26 AM

-{ Quote: "Yes, but that doesn't mean he converted his file system to NTFS." }-

Let,s wait for his reply.

bellgamin

July 23rd, 2006, 01:00 AM

-{ Quote: "Let,s wait for his reply." }-I must have missed something. If you mean me, yes -- I am now using XP. And, yes -- all 4 of my HDs are NTFS.

aigle

July 23rd, 2006, 01:44 AM

-{ Quote: "I must have missed something. If you mean me, yes -- I am now using XP. And, yes -- all 4 of my HDs are NTFS." }-

If u suspect SSM to be the cause, u can make a copy of its congif file from program files, uninstall SSM and try FDISR again or u can jsut ask in their forums.

starfish_001

July 23rd, 2006, 06:47 AM

-{ Quote: "PRP creates but one snapshot. Although that snapshot can be updated whenever you like, that is nevertheless a big restriction compared to the likes of GB, RB, FDISR and RestoreIT.
Hth, pv" }-

Pheonix
Does look quite good not a bad price
http://www.insight.com/site/product/detail/index.cfm?item_number=AX%2D044XX6T%2DE%2DBOX&searchLink=y&search_params=OS%3DY%26K%3Drecover%2520pro%25206%26KT%3DT%26SB%3Dbest%26PS%3D10%26P%3D1%26%26p%5Fsess%3D&NugsTracking=Results_Full_Specs
The demo seems to show more than one snapshot?
http://www.phoenix.com/en/Home/flash/rp6_demo.htm

Updated link - insight link is just pricing info

WinRollBack automatically repairs everything, which might impact a Windows PC. Simply restart the PC – immediately, all unwanted modifications, manipulations, installations and even virus infestations have completely and entirely disappeared. All this is solely based on software; no installation of additional hardware or repartitioning is necessary.
http://www.datapol-technologies.com/dpe/security/winrollback/protection/index.html

Hardware solutions based on one snapshot exist
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=137368

For me FD ISR is my Fav