M$ wants access to your private information

[azumi21]

Microsoft wants access to your private information - [crime-law]

http://www.okgazette.com/news/templates/cover.asp?articleid=423&zoneid=7

" Microsoft and other tech companies are currently pushing bills in various U.S. states that would allow them and others complete access to all data on a private computer and to all Internet traffic in and out of it in the name of providing better privacy.
Called the "Computer Spyware Protection Act," House Bill 2083 would create fines of up to a million dollars for anyone using viruses or surreptitious computer techniques to break on to someone's computer without that person's knowledge and acceptance, according to the bill's state Senate author, Clark Jolley. "The bill has a clear prohibition on anything going in without your permission. You have to grant permission," said Jolley, R-Edmond. "You can look at your license agreement. It will say whether they have the ability to take that information or not."

But therein lies the catch. If you click that "accept" button on the routine user's agreement, the proposed law would allow any company from whom you bought upgradable software the freedom to come onto your computer for "detection or prevention of the unauthorized use of or fraudulent or other illegal activities in connection with a network, service, or computer software, including scanning for and removing computer software prescribed under this act."

That means that Microsoft (or another company with such software) can erase spyware or viruses. But if you have, say, a pirated copy of Excel - Microsoft (or companies with similar software) can erase it, or anything else they want to erase, and not be held liable for it. Additionally, that phrase "fraudulent or other illegal activities" means they can:

-Let the local district attorney know that you wrote a hot check last month.
-Let the attorney general know that you play online poker.
-Let the tax commission know you bought cartons of cigarettes and didn't pay the state tax on them.
-Read anything on your hard drive, such as your name, home address, personal identification code, passwords, Social Security number... etc., etc., etc. "

[Lamehand]

That's it; no more american software for me. ;D
Because everything you buy there contains spyware (or should it be "delete what we don't like"-ware). :) :)


Lamehand

[f3x]

Please read in deep before posting link to "expert source"
That spyware bill has nothing do do with microsoft (that i know of)
It mainly define what a spyware is, what is prohiben do to as of software ethic.

it's 12 page long...
I've read some part.
I've search/find for word such as relete/remove/uninstall and it does'nt involve MS deleting your file if they want it.
Most important of all it only imply oklaoma.


Summary
http://ipcenter.bna.com/pic2/ip.nsf/id/BNAP-6LD2QK?OpenDocument


Official page :
http://www.okhighered.org/leg-info/2006/house.shtml

Wich link to the actual house bill:
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2005-06HB/HB2083_int.rtf

[dread]

No it has nothing to do with microsoft but any company could come in your computer.

[ErikAlbert]

Well, one day all this will be a fact. Isn't that typical for the human nature : people controlling other people. My neighbors keep an eye on me too and call the police if I put my garbage bags on the street before 22h00.
Even Wilders controls people and tell them what to do and not to do, closing threads, deleting posts, ...
Why not the rest of the world, governments, companies, supermarkets, banks, etc. ... they are doing it already and they will improve their methods.
Nothing surprises me anymore. In fact, who is blaming who, we all do it, sometimes with good intentions, sometimes with bad intentions, but where is the line ? :)

[azumi21]

-{ Quote: "Please read in deep before posting link to "expert source"
That spyware bill has nothing do do with microsoft (that i know of)
It mainly define what a spyware is, what is prohiben do to as of software ethic.

it's 12 page long...
I've read some part.
I've search/find for word such as relete/remove/uninstall and it does'nt involve MS deleting your file if they want it.
Most important of all it only imply oklaoma.


Summary
http://ipcenter.bna.com/pic2/ip.nsf/id/BNAP-6LD2QK?OpenDocument


Official page :
http://www.okhighered.org/leg-info/2006/house.shtml

Wich link to the actual house bill:
http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/2005-06HB/HB2083_int.rtf" }-

You need to 'read in deep' if you think all this is a description of spyware:

---
“It prohibits them from taking things as basic as your home address, your first name, your first initial in combination with your last name, your passwords, any personal identification numbers you have, any biometric information, any Social Security, tax IDs, drivers licenses, account balances, overdraft histories — there is a clear prohibition on that,” Jolley said.

Indeed, Sections 4 and 5 of the act specifically forbid anyone from doing so without the user’s permission.

However, Section 6 of the act says such a prohibition “shall not apply” to “telecommunications carrier, cable operator, computer hardware or software provider or provider of information service” and won’t apply to those companies in cases of “detection or prevention of the unauthorized use of or fraudulent or other illegal activities.”
---

M$ is the one pushing/lobbying this - because they want you to have a safer internet experience? lol

Think about what they consider "unauthorized use, fraudulent, illegal activities" and how they plan on searching your HD while you are updating your Windows with your activeX/scripting on to get the 'update'. Not only M$, but all the other “shall not apply” list (telecommunications carrier, cable operator, computer hardware or software provider (M$) or provider of information service). They can delete what they want (if you're lucky, just all your free music dls and porn ;p), cripple your os, notify authorities.

Just the beginning of a very bad thing.

[ErikAlbert]

-{ Quote: "
M$ is the one pushing/lobbying this - because they want you to have a safer internet experience? lol" }-
LOL indeed.
The advantage of the good guys is that everybody trusts them, but is that really true?
I wouldn't be surprised that even legitimate softwares spy on us and steal info from our computers, most probably with good intentions, but any info can be used in a good or bad way and that's the problem.
Who gets that info and what does he do with it ?

[Lamehand]

It would be a advantage for Microsoft, no more need of a validation program,
you just bust into someone's computer and look what's on it and if it's "illegal"
you take it of.

The danger in this is ofcourse that they (MS) will decide what is illegal or not.
There are country's on this planet where they did something like this on a larger scale and that was for some stupid ideoligy, this is only about money, not a real valid reason, and control over the user ofcourse.
It has nothing to do with protecting users from spyware and other badware, maybe MS can call it super-DRM. ;D

I'm sorry but i call this utter stupidity.

Lamehand

[azumi21]

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/11/1630211&from=rss

Microsoft Helps Write Oklahoma's Anti-Spyware Law

[Lamehand]

If they (MS) would try to do something like this on this side of the big pond they would get there share of trouble, and i mean big trouble.This is a bit more than integrating mediaplayer into the OS.
Poor Oklahoma, no more internet for those people. :'(

Well, they still have to vote for this bill, so there is the chance it will be thrown
off the table.

Lamehand.

[f3x]

-{ Quote: "You need to 'read in deep' if you think all this is a description of spyware:

---
“It prohibits them from taking things as basic as your home address, your first name, your first initial in combination with your last name, your passwords, any personal identification numbers you have, any biometric information, any Social Security, tax IDs, drivers licenses, account balances, overdraft histories — there is a clear prohibition on that,” Jolley said.

Indeed, Sections 4 and 5 of the act specifically forbid anyone from doing so without the user’s permission.

However, Section 6 of the act says such a prohibition “shall not apply” to “telecommunications carrier, cable operator, computer hardware or software provider or provider of information service” and won’t apply to those companies in cases of “detection or prevention of the unauthorized use of or fraudulent or other illegal activities.”
---

They can delete what they want (if you're lucky, just all your free music dls and porn ;p), cripple your os, notify authorities.

" }-


I still DO not know where they talk about deleting. It talk about collecting personnal information. RIGTH NOW, SUCH COMPAGNY MENTIONED ALREADY HAVE THAT RIGTH GRANTED. The bill is only to remove the rigth to fraudulent user. It's not more rigth for big compagny it's less rigth for spyware.

[Detox]

-{ Quote: "I still DO not know where they talk about deleting. It talk about collecting personnal information. RIGTH NOW, SUCH COMPAGNY MENTIONED ALREADY HAVE THAT RIGTH GRANTED. The bill is only to remove the rigth to fraudulent user. It's not more rigth for big compagny it's less rigth for spyware." }-

Well, I don't know anything about "rigths" but I don't allow anyone to scan my computer without my explicit permission and I certainly will not use an OS which has such abilities built in for any entity.

[Lamehand]

Quote from Slashdot.org
-{ Quote: "That means that Microsoft (or another company with such software) can erase spyware or viruses. But if you have, say, a pirated copy of Excel — Microsoft (or companies with similar software) can erase it, or anything else they want to erase, and not be held liable for it." }-

f3x, it is not the part about the pirated software but the part wich i emphasised, (erase=delete).

Lamehand.

[azumi21]

-{ Quote: "I still DO not know where they talk about deleting. It talk about collecting personnal information. RIGTH NOW, SUCH COMPAGNY MENTIONED ALREADY HAVE THAT RIGTH GRANTED. The bill is only to remove the rigth to fraudulent user. It's not more rigth for big compagny it's less rigth for spyware." }-

"detection or prevention of the unauthorized use of or fraudulent or other illegal activities in connection with a network, service, or computer software, including scanning for and removing computer software prescribed under this act."

Removing = delete

Scanning your HD for information = invasion of privacy

Who is to determine what is "illegal and fraudulent"?
You trust M$ (or any other software / hardware co / etc) to allow what you can have on your computer and what "penalty" for you?

>_<!!!!!!!

[the Tester]

Doesn't Microsoft already have access to that info on your computer?
How much searching does MS do when you use Windows Update? :shifty:

[Lamehand]

the Tester;
They might have access to the info on your computer when you use windows update but you still have the choice to use it or not and the updater doesn't delete random programs on your HD wich MS might deem unsuitable or illegal.
Once you sign an agreement like mentioned earlier in this thread, well that's a whole other ballgame, no more choice and no control over your own box.

I personally have not heard of anybody's information being used by MS, gained through the use of windows update, but that is just my experience.

Greetings
Lamehand.

[donsan]

you know the more i read about all this crap with windows and what can happen to your computer just makes me that much happier about buying a mac.don't get me wrong i have three computer in my house and one of then is a mac mini and i find myself using it more then the windows machines. it's nice to not have it loaded down with spyware,trojans and virus programs.

[f3x]

-{ Quote: "
Sections 4 and 5 of the Computer Spyware Protection Act shall not apply to the monitoring of, […] including scanning for and removing computer software prescribed under this act.
" }-

the question is :
What computer software are prescribed under the act:

The program that can be removed are not illegal program.
It's program that respond to the following criteria: (see below)
That law bypass about isp is basicly an ok for isp to sell antispyware software.


-{ Quote: "
It is unlawful for a person who is not an owner or operator of a computer to cause computer software to be copied on the computer knowingly or with conscious avoidance of actual knowledge or willfully, and to use software to do any of the following:
1. Modify, through intentionally deceptive means, settings of a computer that control any of the following:
2. Collect, through intentionally deceptive means, personally identifiable information through any of the following means:
3. Prevent, through intentionally deceptive means, the reasonable efforts of an owner or operator to block the installation of or execution of, or to disable, computer software by causing computer software that the owner or operator has properly removed or disabled to automatically reinstall or reactivate on the computer without the authorization of an authorized user;
4. Intentionally misrepresent that computer software will be uninstalled or disabled by the action of an owner or operator;
5. Through intentionally deceptive means, remove, disable, or render inoperative security, antispyware, or antivirus computer software installed on the computer of an owner or operator;
6. Enable use of the computer of an owner or operator to do any of the following:
a) causing damage to a computer
b) opening multiple, sequential, stand-alone messages (dos attack)
c) transmitting or relaying commercial electronic mail

7. Modify any of the following settings related access of the computer, or use of, the Internet:
8. Prevent, without the authorization of an owner or operator, the reasonable efforts of an owner or operator to block the installation of, or to disable, computer software by doing any of the following:
" }-

[Lamehand]

@f3x;

And because they have this nice set of rules you think they are not gonna make 'mistakes'. An you no, you can't hold them responsible for it when they do, that is convinient isn't it? ;)

The question arises why do they want on my computer to do something about spyware/adware?, i'am just a user not a malwarewriter.It would be more logical to do something to stop the ones who make this stuff.
This bill makes everybody a computercriminal and therefore you must give up your privacy.

regards
Lamehand

[Togg]

Many years ago, I read that the MS EULA that was put in place for 2000 SP3 (and all subsequent updates) gave MS the right to do just about anything they wanted to on your system. This info came from a rabidly anti MS site called Radsoft.net and so may be total fiction or grossly exaggerated. See what you think; http://radsoft.net/news/20020905,00.html

I have always thought it interesting that there doesn't seem to have been any official explanation of why Windows creates index.dat or User Assist files, both of which track what the user has done on the system, unless there was some method for someone to 'collect' that information. The detail collected doesn't seem very likely to assist a tech in dealing with a system crash. Perhaps I just missed the official news release on that?

Another article I saw suggested that XP spent an awful lot of its time 'phoning home' to MS with various bits of information about what was being done on the computer. This presumably led to the creation of tools like XP Antispy, which turns off such unnecessary 'services'. It also raises the possibility that the XP firewall only registers inbound connections because they didn't want users to be alarmed at the outward bound traffic XP generated itself (or is that a bit too much of a conspiracy theory perhaps?).

[Lamehand]

I think they exagerate and they are not offering any proof of what they claim on that page, at least i didn't see it.I've been using XP-pro for a couple of years now and i haven't witnessed such behaviour as they (Radsoft) describe.

Those index.dat files are certainly a mistery and one of the reasons i don't use WU.They (MS) can offer to me what updates are available but i decide what get's installed.

regards
Lamehand.

[f3x]

-{ Quote: "@f3x;

And because they have this nice set of rules you think they are not gonna make 'mistakes'. An you no, you can't hold them responsible for it when they do, that is convinient isn't it? ;)
" }-

if they make the mistake to not follow the law... it's their problem.
You can't blame a law on the basis that ppl wil not folow it.


-{ Quote: "
The question arises why do they want on my computer to do something about spyware/adware?" }-


The answear is $$$$$$
It's basicly an open door for thecnician and isp to sell antispyware solution
And even better one click idiot-firendly, alwais updated (with isp) scanner.
In any case it's not mandatory.



----------------------------------------


Now i do not take any side yet.
I Just condone the fact that no one take the time to read and understand the news on the net.
This topic has a very anti-M$ name and i wanted to test the author argumnetation.
Most of product bashing are done on Anectodal evidence* and are very shallow.
However you have prooven yourself very well which is good.



* You should see the dilbert episode about conique cubicule syndrome ;)

[Lamehand]

If anything, this is not bashing a product like the ones from MS, it was only used
as an example for the sake of argument, the real point here, wich you seem to mis, is this unholy bill and the attempt to restrict your control and freedom of choice.

regards
Lamehand

[azumi21]

-{ Quote: "If anything, this is not bashing a product like the ones from MS, it was only used
as an example for the sake of argument, the real point here, wich you seem to mis, is this unholy bill and the attempt to restrict your control and freedom of choice.

regards
Lamehand" }-


there is a serious failure to communicate this to f3x and i no longer care to. cheers to you lamehand

[Lamehand]

Well, we have tried and that's all you can do.


Regards
Lamehand

[Mrkvonic]

Hello,
It's very convenient to bash Microsoft. And probably needed. Kinda underdog, kinda David and Goliath.
Tracking hundreds of millions of PCs worldwide is practically impossible. Even if Big Brother wants to track anyone - of course assuming they have control only within USA that is, but for the sake of argument, everyone - how are they going to enforce it exactly?
So they will know that 44 million American citizens go to porn site, gamble etc, and another 100 million Europeans do that. And what then? What happens exactly?
Taxes were mentioned. And cheques? How many people have records of their cheque transaction on their pc, or taxes? Even if you buy stuff only, data is not stored locally on your pc, unless you deliberately save it.
But why go so far?
You have Windows installed right now? It could have a "Big Brothered" kernel already, which is dialing MPIA and RIAA for every song and movie you listen and sending info about your files.
But . . .
It's not that way. Plug a Windows machine through a Linux gateway and sniff the packets. And you will see nothing special happens.
Not because they can't do it / don't want to do it.
It's simply undoable.
Even if you have one clerk per ten citizens monitoring "evil" activities, assuming you can sort the crazy junk people have on their pcs, it would take precious trillions of dollars to maintain any reasonably effective vigil.
Yes, Big Brother is there, and he wants to own us.
Yes, they are bloodsuckers, and we need to own the system back.
But, practically, simply nothing happens. It's a mayhem of bits.
Mrk

[azumi21]

-{ Quote: "Hello,
It's very convenient to bash Microsoft. And probably needed. Kinda underdog, kinda David and Goliath.
Tracking hundreds of millions of PCs worldwide is practically impossible. Even if Big Brother wants to track anyone - of course assuming they have control only within USA that is, but for the sake of argument, everyone - how are they going to enforce it exactly?
So they will know that 44 million American citizens go to porn site, gamble etc, and another 100 million Europeans do that. And what then? What happens exactly?
Taxes were mentioned. And cheques? How many people have records of their cheque transaction on their pc, or taxes? Even if you buy stuff only, data is not stored locally on your pc, unless you deliberately save it.
But why go so far?
You have Windows installed right now? It could have a "Big Brothered" kernel already, which is dialing MPIA and RIAA for every song and movie you listen and sending info about your files.
But . . .
It's not that way. Plug a Windows machine through a Linux gateway and sniff the packets. And you will see nothing special happens.
Not because they can't do it / don't want to do it.
It's simply undoable.
Even if you have one clerk per ten citizens monitoring "evil" activities, assuming you can sort the crazy junk people have on their pcs, it would take precious trillions of dollars to maintain any reasonably effective vigil.
Yes, Big Brother is there, and he wants to own us.
Yes, they are bloodsuckers, and we need to own the system back.
But, practically, simply nothing happens. It's a mayhem of bits.
Mrk" }-

Very true on the spying part.

But M$ is more than capable of deleting files on your HD (ie during windows update, or some other back door)
that it deems unacceptable. And this Bill gives them the right to do it.
They "helped" write it.

-
(Telecommunications carrier, cable operator, computer hardware or software provider, or provider of information service) "detection or prevention of the unauthorized use of or fraudulent or other illegal activities in connection with a network, service, or computer software, including scanning for and removing computer software prescribed under this act."
-

[sosaiso]

Why are you all worried about this anyway?

I would think that the only ones that have reason to worry are piraters. If you use legit software, they won't have to go and delete something you didnt' pay for would they?

[yes yes, it is all about the "rights" and what not. I just dont see why everyone thinks MS will indeed delete your files. Businessmen have better things to do you know. :T]

[f3x]

-{ Quote: "there is a serious failure to communicate this to f3x and i no longer care to. cheers to you lamehand" }-

Huston ... We have major communication problem !
System failure 0X8080FE.

-{ Quote: "the real point here, wich you seem to mis, is this unholy bill and the attempt to restrict your control and freedom of choice." }-

Have you ever heard of propaganda ? It's when they use empty expression like those to motivate anything.

Seriously, I do not see where or how it would restrict any of my freedom.
Exept if i am :
1) A Spyware coder.
2) An User who want to have spyware on my computer and want to pay my isp for removing them.

I only ask you one thing
Read the bill with that question in mind:
" IF I AM AN IT PROFESSIONAL HOW THIS BILL WILL PREVENT ME FROM DOING MY WORK ?"

You'll soon see that the problematic passage about removing spyware is only designed to keep legal, activity that where already legal. (TECH SUPPORT)

HOW THAT GOES AGAISNT YOUR FREEDOM ?
The state want help from microsoft ... yeah ... why not?

It's like an lawyer who want advice from a engeener
each one have it's speciality... and micorsoft surely know what a spyware is.


If you want something against microsoft ...
Fight against TCPA or software patent.

If you want good news from micosoft...
Just read on how TCPA scaled down from the the problematic thing it was.
You'll see that micocrosoft almost figth against it, but implemented the strict minimum to make MPAA/RIAA happy


I do not know why you talk about freedom of rigth, when you talk about a oklaoma law about spyware. Why not bash an antispam law while your at it ?
Or why not bash the antispam filter ... they read your email you know ?

[Lamehand]

You're right, there is a failure to communicate. I see you quoted one of the things i wrote in this thread, to set the record straight i wasn't talking about freedom, but the freedom of choice, wich is, in my opinion, a slight but significant difference.

Furthermore, i think it's up to you who to put your trust in, to each his own i think.This is just a matter of different opinions, nothing more.

regards
Lamehand

[azumi21]

-{ Quote: "Why are you all worried about this anyway?

I would think that the only ones that have reason to worry are piraters. If you use legit software, they won't have to go and delete something you didnt' pay for would they?

[yes yes, it is all about the "rights" and what not. I just dont see why everyone thinks MS will indeed delete your files. Businessmen have better things to do you know. :T]" }-

sounds like you would enjoy google in china ;P

a lot of discussion / point of views on this topic:
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/11/1630211&from=rss

enjoy yourself

[Franklin]

Found this article from another unhappy M$ user on spying issues.Doesn't really bother me as ZAP controls my apps.

http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/431027/30/0/threaded

[Lamehand]

As stated by the Borg;

"Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated". Or was it MS that said that? ;D

Regards
Lamehand

[sosaiso]

I've been taught everything is allowed as long as it abides by the rules. "laws" in this case. xP

And, yes, I think Google made the right decision in China.