TDS4 suggestions

[Andreas1]

side note:
I only hope that TDS-4 will keep the console/commandline, or at least something like it. While it may be *the* element that looks most "technical", imo something like this is essential for scripting and using tds's ss3 commands...
sorry for being slightly off-topic, i just wanted to say this in time...
CU,
Andreas

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Andreas, yep - TDS4 Professional is essentially TDS3 Pro but with many updates. It's TDS4 Scanner and TDS4 Active that are significantly different, but all three use the same engine - RADIUS4

[Pilli]

Wayne, Glad to here it is all coming along nicely :)

BTW Assuming we are using radius1 at the moment - What happened to radius 2 & 3 ::):P

[Jooske]

Loading Radius Advanced Scanning Systems ... <R3 Engine, DCS Labs>
Alan, look in your TDS screen after initializing!

[Pilli]

Jooske, I was being sarcastic as the radius file downloads are just called radius.td3 ;)

[wizardavc]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Wayne - DiamondCS link=board=6;threadid=5593;start=45#msg69358 date=1056527166]
Andreas, yep - TDS4 Professional is essentially TDS3 Pro but with many updates. It's TDS4 Scanner and TDS4 Active that are significantly different, but all three use the same engine - RADIUS4

" }-

Why not just have a TDS4 Professional and a TDS4 Basic with those names? I'd think that would be a lot simpler and also easier for DiamondCS because it is one less product to provide support for. There should definitely be two versions of TDS4 but I don't see a need for a third product. There should have a fully featured TDS4 Professional and a very easy to use and simplified TDS4 Basic.

[Jooske]

Wait and see what they do, they are quite different products with very different functions, not necessary to run all three at all time, saving on resources.

Let's see if there will be a WG4 pro and a WG4 something additional too, now we're talking in the WG forum.

[Jason_DiamondCS]

No I don't think there will be 2 versions of WormGuard 4. I'm just packing features into one :)

-Jason-

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

Wizard,
-{ Quote: "Why not just have a TDS4 Professional and a TDS4 Basic with those names?" }-
Sure, we could just make two programs, but then you'll have less choice... why would you want that? :)

TDS4 Pro is very similar to TDS3 Pro. TDS4 Scanner is an on-demand scanner. TDS4 Active is a resident anti-trojan system that proactively scans and keeps your system free from trojans. It also scans files as they are executed using our new execution interception driver.

So as you can see, all three programs are very different, and allows the customer to make a choice as to what style of anti-trojan system they want. For example, if they don't need the advanced extra tools of TDS4 Pro, they may be more happier with TDS4 Scanner. If they just want a set-and-forget anti-trojan system to keep their system clean and automatically prevent infection, then TDS4 Active is the solution there.

Cheers,
Wayne

[wizardavc]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Wayne - DiamondCS link=board=6;threadid=5593;start=60#msg69599 date=1056613167]
Wizard,
-{ Quote: "Why not just have a TDS4 Professional and a TDS4 Basic with those names?" }-
Sure, we could just make two programs, but then you'll have less choice... why would you want that? :)

TDS4 Pro is very similar to TDS3 Pro. TDS4 Scanner is an on-demand scanner. TDS4 Active is a resident anti-trojan system that proactively scans and keeps your system free from trojans. It also scans files as they are executed using our new execution interception driver.

So as you can see, all three programs are very different, and allows the customer to make a choice as to what style of anti-trojan system they want. For example, if they don't need the advanced extra tools of TDS4 Pro, they may be more happier with TDS4 Scanner. If they just want a set-and-forget anti-trojan system to keep their system clean and automatically prevent infection, then TDS4 Active is the solution there.

Cheers,
Wayne

" }-

I still disagree with TDS4 Scanner and TDS4 Active being seperate. You can combine TDS4 Scanner and Active and still have it basically be a set-and-forget anti-trojan system but with the ability to scan. The people who will use TDS4 Active by itself is so small it is ridiculous to make a seperate product just for them. More customers will download TDS4 Active that it isn't right for then the very few people who will download it and ONLY need Active. Keep things simple, have a Pro and a Basic version.

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

-{ Quote: "I still disagree with TDS4 Scanner and TDS4 Active being seperate." }-
TDS4 Active is similar in behaviour to BOClean in that it doesn't have manual scanning capability, but I think the main complaint with BOClean not offering a scanner is not that there's no scanner with BOClean, but that they don't provide a seperate scanner either. TDS4 Active and TDS4 Scanner essentially combine to fill this gap, and both programs can be used like one. However, a lot of people don't have a need for an on-demand scanner, and likewise, a lot of people don't have a need for a resident scanner. Regardless of your needs, there's a TDS4 solution for you.

Two programs will provide less flexibility/functionality/options, so there is just no advantage to providing two instead of three. We will not disadvantage our customers by giving them less options. We'd make four programs if we thought it were suitable, but these three should cover every individual need.

By providing three programs, people can choose exactly the right solution for them. Resident and on-demand are two very different approaches to detecting trojans. Some people don't want resident systems constantly scanning their system - they just want to be able to manually scan every now and then. In this case, TDS4 Scanner is perfect for them. Some people don't want/need to manual scan, and only want a 'set-and-forget' system, where the software does all the work and they never have to worry about trojans. In this case, TDS4 Active is perfect for them. If they want both, that's not a problem either - both function perfectly side-by-side, giving you the best of both worlds (on-demand and resident), so in that case the two programs nearly function as one.

That's the beauty of multiple programs - you can choose exactly what you want, leaving the rest behind, knowing that you've chosen the right anti-trojan system for _your_ individual needs. Sure we could make just a basic and a pro package, but in doing so we'd be taking away a lot of options and flexibility that the three programs can offer that they wouldn't be able to if they were just two.

Regards,
Wayne

[Andreas1]

...i am hesitating to post another tds-4 reply since this is the wormguard forum...
anyway, to second Wayne's suggestion that there *are* ppl who'd need TDS-4 active without any scanner, i'd like to bring my universtity's pc's as an example: PCs centrally bought and administered (cloned W2k Workstations) outfitted with a local virus scanner. I would imagine that if the university planned to implement trojan scanning, they would be pleased to be able to go with a resident protection on the clients and active (manual or scheduled) scanning initiated centrally...
I suppose that how complicated the distribution modules make an impression depends probably on the website explaining what the modules are and offering several combinations of them.

CU,
Andreas

[Jooske]

Andreas, i modified the title of your posting after the split and move to the proper place here, so hope you feel better now! :)

[Mr.Blaze]

no no no lol no cheesing it we want clean clear easy to use interface and cool looking someting 2003 looking.

[Jooske]

But Blazey, Jazzie ever long ago posted a little script to change the TDS GUI with other colors, background and text lines, but don't ask me how, as i can't find that script back.
Using your windows settings at least you can color all frames on your system to your liking, even if you want them black with white characters, neon colors, cheesey colors, whatever.
You can even add a little script to read it all for you aloud!
(It's a function in your msagents to read the clipboard or a text file you indicate).

Moving over to your scripting problem thread now and see if you solved that now.

[Mr.Blaze]

will i was hopeing for new interface i think tds deserves it since 4.0 promises to be so much more and i belive it will shouldnt it looks as good as it works to?

It like you guys stuck a fully stocked lamburginie engine from a raceing series into a voltswagon bettle.

i know that tds 4 supose to come out with lots more trust me you want difrent interface

[wizardavc]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Wayne - DiamondCS link=board=5;threadid=10763;start=0#msg69787 date=1056683193]
-{ Quote: " However, a lot of people don't have a need for an on-demand scanner, and likewise, a lot of people don't have a need for a resident scanner. " }-

Not many at all.
-{ Quote: "Regardless of your needs, there's a TDS4 solution for you.

Two programs will provide less flexibility/functionality/options, so there is just no advantage to providing two instead of three.

" }-
Your wrong. You don't understand when you start to having available more than two products of the same type, PC users start to get confused/overwhelmed and many times end up downloading one of the choices and it ends up not that having something they would expect like a scanner. That is what will happen if you leave TDS4 Active as a seperate product. It is a joke that any anti virus/anti trojan product would not have any type of scanner even if another one of the options from the company did.

Its like selling a modern color TV without a remote control and having the remote control as a seperate option. Sure, there are a very select few who might not want a remote but there isn't many." }-

[Dan Perez]

-{ Quote: "Your wrong. You don't understand when you start to having available more than two products of the same type, PC users start to get confused/overwhelmed and many times end up downloading one of the choices and it ends up not that having something they would expect like a scanner. That is what will happen if you leave TDS4 Active as a seperate product. It is a joke that any anti virus/anti trojan product would not have any type of scanner even if another one of the options from the company did. " }-

WizardAVC, I disagree. To the degree that people have expressed any reservation on the current "have-it-all" arrangement for TDS, a very sizeable portion of the dissenters have expressed that their own need is merely for an on-access scanner. The common justification for this is

1. They are confused by all the other gadgets (I think you are in agreement that this is a viable viewpoint)

2. That as long as the on-access scanner finds nothing, they feel no need to rescan again.

I personally, do not agree with that (I am in the "have-it-all" camp :) ) and obviously you don't agree with that but the simple fact is a good portion of the "don't-want-it-all" camp do not want an on-demand-scanner either. ;D

Regards,

Dan

[Jooske]

It's so funny:
long ago TDS was a "have it all" included one product, and in some version it was even possible to choose your level, and there was asked for more inclusions and others to exclude some functions they never used and others other uses for functions etc, so there was decided to have several modules apart which can be used as stand alone products as well.
So we get a larger resident protection and an on demand simple scanner, supposing the deep testing part will stay in TDS-4 Pro, etc.
If you see what people add in functionallity with the scripting, you'll see lots of very individual uses and wishes.
With PE and WG beside it and not to forget the AutostartViewer and the APM you've quite a protection suite and all as light in resources as possible.
So now we want it working from DOS /cmd.

[wizardavc]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Dan Perez link=board=5;threadid=10763;start=15#msg70038 date=1056761596]

-{ Quote: "
1. They are confused by all the other gadgets (I think you are in agreement that this is a viable viewpoint)
" }-

However, unlike a lot of features in Pro it won't complicate or confuse the user to any great degree so you mine as well have it.

-{ Quote: "
2. That as long as the on-access scanner finds nothing, they feel no need to rescan again.
" }-


They are wrong. You can have trojan(s) on your computer even if the trojan(s) aren't actively running. All it takes is for a user to disable Active, forget they disabled it, and a descructive trojan deletes their C:\Windows. Now, if the Active had a scanner, a smart user would scan the file they just downloaded before they open it to make sure it is properly scanned. This is just one of several major scenarios that not having an on-demand scanner could create. 99.99% of TDS PC users should have some type of on-demand scanner available. You shouldn't make the on-access and on-demand scanner seperate for a very small % of people when it will only create more confusion and a needed feature for many more." }-

[Dan Perez]

-{ Quote: "They are wrong. " }-

::) Personally, I feel they are wrong as well but you are missing the point. We can (and have) tried to educate them on this matter but some people just won't listen to any sustained argument on this. They cherish their established mindset and won't consider the alternatives. All they see before them is a number of options (in Products/Vendors) and choose what *they feel* best suits their needs. I've no doubt whatsoever that DCS will make clear in the product details what the respective limitations of each product version has and where to go to supplement those features. (especially, as it all leads back to DCS :) )

I agree wholeheartedly with your initial point that DCS needs to build the "approachability" of their Product to the consumer and obviously this is something they have deliberated on for some time as their long-laid plans take this fully into account. The two-way split of the product you advocate is to make the product more approachable to may of the less techie-oriented section of the prospective buyers even though the present all-in-one arrangment is perfectly sufficient for this (as long as you squint one eye to ignore many of the options/plugins/etc. But, and here is the crux of the matter, the posed three-way split merely does the same, there is no more a *Technical* reason for the two-way-split as there is for the three-way-split. It is merely make the product seem more approachable as well as to drive down the cost for much of the pool of prospective buyers.

[Jooske]

In TDS is in the registered version the exec protection checking any executable before allowing it to run, it is able to detect code of sleeping trojans and worms and lots more, so....... just scan regularly and update daily.

[Andreas1]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Jooske link=board=5;threadid=10763;start=0#msg69934 date=1056730639]
Andreas, i modified the title of your posting after the split and move to the proper place here, so hope you feel better now! :)
" }-

Thanks a lot, Jooske.
Actually now I have a little Wormguard-4 suggestion:
...
...
just kidding ::)

CU,
Andreas

[Jooske]

See you in the WG suggestion area then :)

[Jason_DiamondCS]

-{ Quote: " quoting: wizardavc link=board=5;threadid=10763;start=15#msg70168 date=1056824598]
-{ Quote: " quoting: Dan Perez link=board=5;threadid=10763;start=15#msg70038 date=1056761596]

-{ Quote: "
1. They are confused by all the other gadgets (I think you are in agreement that this is a viable viewpoint)
" }-

However, unlike a lot of features in Pro it won't complicate or confuse the user to any great degree so you mine as well have it.

-{ Quote: "
2. That as long as the on-access scanner finds nothing, they feel no need to rescan again.
" }-


They are wrong. You can have trojan(s) on your computer even if the trojan(s) aren't actively running. All it takes is for a user to disable Active, forget they disabled it, and a descructive trojan deletes their C:\Windows. Now, if the Active had a scanner, a smart user would scan the file they just downloaded before they open it to make sure it is properly scanned. This is just one of several major scenarios that not having an on-demand scanner could create. 99.99% of TDS PC users should have some type of on-demand scanner available. You shouldn't make the on-access and on-demand scanner seperate for a very small % of people when it will only create more confusion and a needed feature for many more." }-
" }-

Hi WizardAVC,
it is a more likely situation that someone would forget to manually scan a file than to disable a resident scanner and forget about it. There obviously is a need for only resident scanners as can be seen by BOClean. Any confusion with multiple options will be resolved through a clear and easy to understand website that will point the users (advanced/basic/etc) to the relevant options they need.

-Jason-

[wizardavc]

-{ Quote: " quoting: Jason / DiamondCS link=board=5;threadid=10763;start=15#msg70550 date=1056944049]
-{ Quote: " quoting: wizardavc link=board=5;threadid=10763;start=15#msg70168 date=1056824598]
-{ Quote: " quoting: Dan Perez link=board=5;threadid=10763;start=15#msg70038 date=1056761596]

-{ Quote: "
1. They are confused by all the other gadgets (I think you are in agreement that this is a viable viewpoint)
" }-

However, unlike a lot of features in Pro it won't complicate or confuse the user to any great degree so you mine as well have it.

-{ Quote: "
2. That as long as the on-access scanner finds nothing, they feel no need to rescan again.
" }-


They are wrong. You can have trojan(s) on your computer even if the trojan(s) aren't actively running. All it takes is for a user to disable Active, forget they disabled it, and a descructive trojan deletes their C:\Windows. Now, if the Active had a scanner, a smart user would scan the file they just downloaded before they open it to make sure it is properly scanned. This is just one of several major scenarios that not having an on-demand scanner could create. 99.99% of TDS PC users should have some type of on-demand scanner available. You shouldn't make the on-access and on-demand scanner seperate for a very small % of people when it will only create more confusion and a needed feature for many more." }-
" }-

Hi WizardAVC,
it is a more likely situation that someone would forget to manually scan a file than to disable a resident scanner and forget about it. There obviously is a need for only resident scanners as can be seen by BOClean. Any confusion with multiple options will be resolved through a clear and easy to understand website that will point the users (advanced/basic/etc) to the relevant options they need.

-Jason-


" }-

Yes, I agree that it is a greater chance they would forget to scan then to disable a resident scanner but an on-demand scanner is still very important and I'd say it makes up 40% of an anti trojan product. How can you put out an incomplete part of something that is almost taken for granted will be in the product? I will use my analogy again from before, it is like selling a modern TV without a remote, sure some people might not want a remote but it is not enough people to separate a product more then it has to be separated. And yes, BOClean is an incomplete product and I have never recommended it to anyone. What people are not understanding is that some people will almost randomly click a product, maybe they skim and see the word easy to use under TDS Active so they go and download it taking for granted that it has an on-demand scanner.

I personally, will not be able to recommend TDS if it is separated into 3 products instead of 2. TDS4 Professional will be too complex and there is a good chance that the user will be confused between Active and Scanner and only downloading one of them when they should have both.

[Wayne - DiamondCS]

-{ Quote: "I personally, will not be able to recommend TDS if it is separated into 3 products instead of 2." }-
With all due respect, that is quite a silly reason not to recommend a product. "It's too complex for me" - fine. "I don't like the interface" - fine. But "I'll only recommend it if it comes in only 2 forms instead of 3"? Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. Not only does having three programs allow people to choose the exact anti-trojan system they want, but it reduces the cost. If we combine Active and the Scanner into one program, YOU will HAVE to pay for both of them, even if you only want one. So by keeping them seperate, you can still purchase both of them and use them side-by-side as if they were one program, but if you only want on-demand scanning, or only want automatic scanning, then the freedom of that choice will be available to you.

Here's the solution to your problem: Run TDS4 Scanner and TDS4 Active side-by-side. For all intents and purposes, they are one program - they even use the same database. The only difference between TDS4 Scanner, TDS4 Active, and a combined Active/Scanner combo is that it's two processes instead of one, which means nothing.

Other than a few emails I've had from people informing me of your activities on AOL, I'm not familiar with your background in anti-trojan software development, but I can tell you that the design of TDS4 is a direct result of over half a decade of development, testing, research, and feedback from our customers. You are the only person who has ever objected to having TDS4 Scanner and TDS4 Active being made available seperately, so it doesn't seem to be a very popular request.

Thanks for your feedback, if you have any more suggestions feel free to email us.

[Jason_DiamondCS]

Hi WizardAVC,
I think you mean, on demand scanning accounts for %40 of what you use an anti-trojan product for. There are plenty of people where it accounts for 0% or maybe 100%. Why should we force people to pay for things they do not need. Why should people who only want resident scanning pay as an example, $40 for on demand scanning and resident protection when they could be only paying $20. If you want both you spend $40 and your in the same situation financially. Prices are only an example though, I do not know what TDS-4 will be priced at.

Maybe if YOU want to recommend TDS-4 why not tell them "grab the Scanner and Active component". A lot of other people in all 3 camps will also be able to recommend TDS-4, so everyone wins. Is it that much harder to download 2 things instead of one? :)

-Jason-